Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Jun 1950

Vol. 121 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture (Resumed).

I am very grateful to Deputy Cowan because he gave me an opportunity of finding quotations from speeches by Deputy Davin. In the Official Report of the 18th November, 1948, column 273, Mr. Davin is reported as follows:—

"I found myself last week-end confronted with this position in an area in my constituency where there are only small farmers. They still have oats on their hands because it will not be bought at any price. I know that a limited amount of oats was purchased in a certain portion of my constituency at 27/- a barrel, but the average price would not exceed 22/- for those who are obliged to sell their oat crop simply because they grew it as a cash crop and had no storage capacity."

That was the condition of affairs at that time in Deputy Davin's constituency. That is one thing to which I am more than anxious the Minister for Agriculture would attend and give heed. He should give some security to the farmers. He should fix some guaranteed price for the farmer's crop —and then let us see how far we can get. Where is the use in having 50 per cent. of the crop eaten by the rats one year—after the Minister's praying the people to grow it—and the following year having a condition of affairs in which that muck had to be bought in the Argentine at 46/- a barrel and imported into this country?

The Deputy has said that already.

I am only demonstrating the position as regards oats.

The Deputy should not repeat his statements.

8,000 tons of oats.

The Deputy does not take kindly to being reminded of the fact that he is repeating his statements.

I want some guarantee, some stability in our agricultural policy. We are entitled to that, anyway. The same position exists as regards the potatoes. We had an appeal from the Minister in connection with potatoes in that year. "There is a guaranteed market for 50,000 tons of ware potatoes in Great Britain at £10 13s. 6d. a ton." I want Deputy Davin to mark that statement very carefully. It was made by the Minister when he was moving his Estimate in June, 1948. "A guaranteed market at £10 13s. 6d. a ton." What became of Deputy Davin's potatoes? Would he like to know?

I do know.

Deputy Davin is one of those who are responsible for supporting the Minister who got potatoes grown on that guarantee, and here is what happened to Deputy Davin's potatoes.

They were sold at 3/9 a stone.

Ah, steady up. Speaking in this House on the 18th November, 1948. Deputy Davin asked the House:—

"What have the responsible Ministers done to control the middlemen, who undoubtedly have been profiteering at the expense of both the producer and the consumer? What has been done in an official way to bring middlemen to their senses as regards the price charged for potatoes? In parts of my constituency potatoes have been sold at £5 a ton...."

The Minister guaranteed us a price of £10 13s. 6d. a ton and Deputy Davin allowed his unfortunate constituents to be robbed to the extent of £5 13s. 6d. a ton for their potatoes.

Is it not more than 30/- a ton for the alcohol potatoes?

It is, and more than the Deputy would ever knock out of the dual-purpose hen even if he fed her on Deputy Davin's potatoes.

Are you still in search of old hens?

There is the position of the farmer. "Grow the potatoes. I have a guaranteed market for you at £10 13s. 6d. a ton"—and then sell them at £5.

Could the Deputy refrain from telling us that twice?

That is the position. What happened afterwards?

The farmers are not going to be robbed a second time. This year the Minister went abroad again and, no doubt, he was thinking the old fool of a farmer was going to grow them once more and he would have them at the £5 a ton for export to John Bull at whatever price he fixed this year. He sold some of them all right, but for the most part he found the farmers had not grown them, that the acreage of potatoes had gone down, that the old farmer was no longer a fool. We had a famine in potatoes for the past three months, due to the fact that potatoes were exported that should not be exported and that were needed for our people. We had a position in which our Minister for Agriculture went to Amsterdam, from that to Canada, from that to America and from that to the Sandwich Islands, I think it was—he went to some islands, anyway—buying potatoes, not for the people here, but for Bull. It was a most suitable job for the present Minister. Is that condition of affairs going to continue?

Ask the farmers.

Will we have that happening each year, or are we going to have some stabilisation in agriculture? If the policy is as it was exemplified by the samples I have shown here, then carry on with it, but do not say you have an agricultural policy. The policy of bringing in those bags of muck and mixing them up and feeding them to pigs and cattle can be carried out in a backyard. You want no land for that at all. Why not tell the farmers decently: "It is my intention as soon as you produce the crop to see that if I can I will import stuff to the price you mark it"?

The Minister for Agriculture loses sight of one most important matter, namely, that there are different methods of farming in practically every constituency, different policies in regard to farming and different lines of agriculture. In certain belts grain is produced for sale. In other belts that grain is required for feeding and would be bought for feeding, if we had a Minister who would put any effort into it. There is no use in telling a farmer growing ten, 15 or 20 acres of barley and oats for sale to walk it off the land. He will not do it. That is his market; that is what he has to pay his merchants' bills and everything else for the year—that crop. The idea of an artificial depression of that market, a vicious depression, by the importation of muck is an outrage and it should be stopped.

I am prepared to be reasonable with anybody, but the sooner Deputies realise that there must be an agricultural policy, that some security must be given to the farmer who ploughs his land and grows grain or other crops that he is entitled, before he sets the crop, to know the price he will get for the article when it is produced, the better for all concerned. That is not too much to ask for. It is something on which we could get general agreement. Can we get agreement with the Minister? When I asked him last February would he fix a guaranteed price for feeding barley, he refused. If he had fixed a guaranteed price then he need not bring in 16,000 tons of Mesopotamian muck during the past month and he need not be paying £320,000 of apparently loaned dollars for it. That is the policy I wish to get rid of.

There has been a lot of talk about bacon, and the Minister told us we should have pigs and more pigs. For whom do we want them? Is it our agricultural policy to pay dollars for Iraq barley, Argentine oats and Pacific wheat, bring them here and mix them and then use them for fattening pigs? It would require a lot of that stuff to fatten an old pig. When the pig is fattened, who will get him? I am going to quote from the Irish Independent of Thursday, 1st June, 1950. This is not a wild Fianna Fáil journal; this is the dyed-in-the-wool article, the real McCoy.

A newspaper.

It is not any kept Press; it is the Irish Independent. The article is headed “Bacon Exports Subsidy” and it says:—

"When the home consumer is threatened with a still further increase in the price of bacon——"

What is the Deputy reading from?

I have already said from the Irish Independent. I am reading from a leading article.

Surely, the Minister is not responsible for what appears in a leading article.

If the Chair would prefer that I should speak it, I will speak it. The Minister then informed Deputy Smith, in reply to a question in the Dáil, that from January 1st of this year to Thursday last, 2,282 tons of bacon were sent abroad and that, of this quantity, 98 per cent. of it went to Britain.

The Deputy is quite in order in that. I thought the Deputy was going to read the leading article.

That is the funny thing, that this is the leading article. It says that the price paid by the British Ministry of Food was 217/- per cwt. f.o.b. for Wiltshire sides, with a corresponding price for the other classes. The amount of the subsidy paid on the export to Britain was £17,901, while the average price per cwt. charged to wholesalers here varied from 236/- to 245/-. I ask Deputies to mark that, that we are to bring in these feeding stuffs and pay dollars for them. We are then to fatten pigs on the Dillon admixture of Argentine oats and Iraqian barley. When you have fed them on that, you have to put 8/- a cwt. on their backs and send them over to Bull. What this leads to is that already £17,901 of Irish money has been paid by way of subsidy on over 2,000 tons of bacon sent over to England.

If that policy were carried out by, say, Deputy Dr. James Ryan, this Minister for Agriculture would say that it was a daft policy. If we had a position in this country under which we had a guaranteed price, and if feeding stuffs were grown here by our own farmers who were paid the cost of production plus a fair profit for producing them—if we had the cost of production of, say, one cwt. of bacon that was made up and sent off—then we would be able to do something. The Minister, apparently, is mighty anxious that all the bacon possible would be exported. He told us the other day that the late Count McCormack and himself were very found of pig's cheek for dinner. He said it should be eaten by the Irish people. I want to make a suggestion to the Minister since he is now publicising pig's cheek. I would ask him to go a step further and take his cannibal queen he was talking of when dealing with Iraqian barley and entertain her to tea, and say that she was very fond of pig's knuckles and crubeens. If he does that, he can get out another dish that will be known as "Dillon's Delight". There will then be more Wiltshire sides available to be sent over to Bull. The Irish can eat the pig's cheek and the crubeens.

We had pig's cheek in the Dáil restaurant to-day.

I am making the Minister a present of that suggestion. I hope he will be able to tell us that the cannibal queen and himself had dined on pig's knuckles and crubeens.

The Deputy should be able to make a jocose remark without repeating it.

The Deputy had to face pig's cheek in the Dáil restaurant to-day, and appears to be doing very nicely on it.

Unfortunately, my health did not allow me to eat any meat to-day.

You can eat the Formosan sugar.

In these bad days of a burst-up Government, we have to eat Formosan sugar and other mix-ups. We are no longer producing the food for ourselves. The next thing that I would like to turn my attention to is——

Chewing beet.

I have already spoken on beet. I am sure the Chair would not like to hear me repeat myself. I have also said a few words on wheat and on the 168,000 acres of wheat which used to be grown here but which have now disappeared. We have now to depend on so many things from abroad that I wonder what our position would be in the morning if anything happened in the world. What hope would we have of getting anything from abroad? Would we be told, as we were told in 1939, that plenty of wheat and sugar and everything else would be brought into the country in American and British bottoms during the war?

Who said that?

I heard a former Minister for Justice and the present Minister for Education tell us that from these benches in 1939 and 1940. That was their idea. The present Minister may have the same idea. There may be something behind the scenes. We know how he carried on during the last war. In 1932, when we took over office, 50 per cent, if not more, of the bread that was consumed in this country came in here. It did not even come in as wheat. It came in as flour. We had extreme difficulty at that time in reopening the closed flour mills in order to put our people working again. We have been informed that 3,000 bags of American flour came in here in the past few months.

Did we ever get any in the Argentine?

The Deputy will have his opportunity.

The Deputy should have enough on hands and should not try to interrupt me. I wonder if this has come in with the consent and the blessing of Deputy Davin. Does he consider it right that we should borrow American dollars to buy in America, not wheat, but flour?

There were no American dollars borrowed to buy flour, but American dollars were accepted as a gift to buy flour.

Three thousand two hundred tons were brought in.

With dollars presented to us by the American people as a free gift.

If that is the way, well and good.

That is the way.

I am honestly glad to hear that; the Minister may not believe it, but I am. I am of the opinion that we should grow here sufficient wheat to supply the bulk of our own needs, even if it is according to the description given by the present Minister for Agriculture on 18th June, 1947, at column 2050 of the Official Report:—

"...in the spring of this year when our people were no longer able to get Canadian wheat for the first time since the emergency, we had the enthralling, stimulating and surprising experience of eating bread made out of Irish wheat. Before you ate it you had to hold it out in your hands, squeeze the water out of it, then tease it out and make up your mind whether it was a handful of boot polish or a handful of bread. If it was boot polish you put it on your boots or shoes and if it was bread you tried to masticate it if you were fit."

That was the description given by the present Minister for Agriculture of bread made from Irish wheat when speaking here on 18th June, 1947.

Was he far wrong?

Deputy Giles is still alive and the Minister is fine and hefty; he seems to have quite got over his seven years' experience of it.

That was Fianna Fáil wheat.

The Minister who told us that the land was mined and run out and would grow nothing is now delighted with the enormous crops coming off the land. The reason for his delight, because we can now get increased crops, is because we now have the opportunity of getting artificial manures from abroad. Surely the Minister does not think that he will get 12 months' notice from the Russians or the Americans or the British of their intention to start another war. The present agricultural policy is confused, foolish, idiotic and daft.

We are now trying to build the storage that you did not build in 15 years.

Fifteen years! In 1939 and 1940 there was no more disappointed Deputy in this House. There was no more disappointed individual in the whole country than the present Minister for Agriculture when he realised that the Fianna Fáil Government was going to ensure that there would be enough food to feed the people, and that we would not, therefore, have to purchase with Irish lives bread from Britain.

You bought 50 per cent. of your bread every year during the war.

There was not a more disappointed man in the country than Deputy Dillon.

The Deputy should not repeat himself.

The next matter I want to deal with is milk. I would like to call the Minister's attention to the results obtained from what he described as the Pekinese breeds when speaking here in 1948. I would suggest that the Minister should read very carefully Mr. Liam Barry's articles in the Irish Press. It would be well worth while getting them into the Official Report, but I do not want to take up time reading them now. They are good articles. They are skilled articles. They are sound articles. They deal with the position of the dairying industry in a way in which it has never been dealt with before. The articles expose everything to the full light of day. They tell us why we have the 200-gallon cow about which the Minister has talked so much. If Deputy Rooney studied them he might get a tip on the dual purpose hen.

Still in search of old hens.

He should try them out. There was a Minister for Agriculture here for a number of years for whom I had a great respect. I was politically opposed to him, but he called a spade a spade and there was no nonsense about him. That was the late Deputy Patrick Hogan. I remember him when he came over to this side of the House. The first year he was here Deputy Dr. James Ryan was Minister for Agriculture. This was the advice that the then Deputy Patrick Hogan tendered to his successor:—

"If you carry on the live-stock breeding policy as it has been carried on by me during the past six years you may have very fine looking cattle in this country; you may have fine looking bullocks, but it will be physically impossible to get a decent milch cow."

Now, that is what has happened. The Minister is working the old game. He is starting again the old game of trying to produce meat and milk off the one animal, and all that is left is the uneconomic cow. The only sane people are the people with the Pekinese breeds at which he sneers

What breeds are they?

The Friesian and half a dozen others that he named. I will get the quotation. In the year 1946 the Cork Dairy Farmers' Association decided that they would find out what it cost to produce a gallon of milk in this country. They handed over the job to Professor Michael Murphy of University College, Cork. They found that for the year ended 31st October, 1947, it took 156½ labour hours per cow to produce a gallon of milk, and that the cost per gallon was 13.35 pence. Is that correct?

No. They divided it into summer and winter milk. Will the Deputy give the two separate figures?

I am making the case and I say that the average cost was 13.35 pence.

But there was a figure for summer milk and a figure for winter milk.

And does the Minister intend to produce a five-months' cow?

No. But I am asking for the price given for producing creamery milk in the summer.

The Minister seems very anxious to produce a six-day cow, but I do not know whether he is on the job yet to produce a five-months' cow.

I am talking about butter from summer milk.

Five-months' cow.

Will the Deputy, when he is quoting from Professor Murphy, give the figures for winter and summer milk?

I would inform the House that on the morning I got this report I posted a copy to the Minister for Agriculture.

But you did not give me leave to quote it.

The Minister had full knowledge of it.

But you did not give me leave to quote from it.

I gave you a copy of it.

Then I have leave to quote from it.

Surely the Minister was not waiting for two and a half years for leave from me to quote from this report. The Minister got a copy of it from Cork University. I think the Minister has five or six copies. I know the Minister got a copy of it from Professor Murphy.

I have had no leave to quote from it.

The Minister quoted from it several times in this House.

If the cost of production of milk in 1946-47 was 13.35 pence——

What was the price of summer milk? It was 8.1 pence according to Professor Murphy's calculations. That was the figure he gave as the cost of producing a gallon of summer milk.

It might be possible with the Minister's 200-gallon cow, all right. But what I want this House to know and what I want the Minister to tell this House is what steps he has taken to increase that price in line with the increased cost of production of milk since 1946-47. That is what I am anxious to hear the Minister on. The Minister tried a big bluff and the Minister's bluff was called. I am glad that Deputy Lehane called his bluff by a very simple question when he wanted to know what was the butter production in this country last year and how much butter would be required for the ration. Let the Minister get that question and answer and tot them together and see how many thousands of tons of this butter he has for sale now. According to the reply given in this House, he has none at all. Does the Minister still think that 13.35 pence per gallon for the production of milk is not right? Has the Minister given any consideration to what has happened since? Since that figure was given by Professor Murphy, we have had increases in agricultural wages, increases in insurance, holidays with pay, increased taxation and other increased costs.

And what about calves?

I can inform the Minister of one thing, and that is that I am selling calves at £2 each and will sell the Minister all he wants.

Friesian calves?

Yes, but it pays me to sell them.

But it does not pay the man who buys them.

I have to give them milk and not depend on the Pekinese breed which the Minister is subsidising in this country—the mongrels of a beef-bull this year, a Shorthorn next year, and a dairy-bull the year after. What comes out of it? The dual purpose monkey that the Minister described here. He spoke on that, mind you. I have a lot of beautiful things from the Minister on that particular matter I should like to tell him all about it, but it is not easy to find them, he "ramaised" so often, even in his sane moments.

Perhaps you would return to Professor Murphy's costings?

I have given Professor Murphy's costings to the House. The Minister has not denied that the average cost is 13.35 pence——

Nor has the Deputy denied that the summer cost is 8.ld.

If it cost 13.35d. to produce a gallon of milk in 1946-47, and, if on the costings I have made up here, it now costs 3½d. to 4d. a gallon more to produce a gallon of milk——

"Made-up" is the operative word.

The Deputy is a fairly smart, intelligent young man. He went to school and college and passed his examination, and let him figure it out for himself. He should be smarter than the ordinary farmer. If it costs 4d. a gallon more now, and if a Fianna Fáil Minister for Agriculture operating on that position of affairs gave 1/2 a gallon in the summer and 1/4 in the winter months to farmers delivering milk to the creameries, the Minister for Agriculture of to-day would be loud in his denunciation of that policy. The Minister is one of those who announced in this House and to the public at large the glorious policy in previous years that when eggs got plentiful the price fell. He said:—

"That will not happen any more. I can assure you, as Minister for eggs, that the more eggs you produce the higher the price will be."

The Minister knows what happened to the 3/- and to the 2/6.

It has become 3/6.

The Minister is learning these things and he is getting saner and more sensible by learning them. It is the same with the milk. The more you produce the less you will get.

A shilling a gallon for five years for what costs 8d. a gallon to produce.

A shilling a gallon for five years for what costs 1/5 to produce. The Minister is working the same game as he worked in the case of beet when he brought down the area under beet by 6,000 acres in 12 months. He is working the same game as he worked in the case of oats when he sent out to the Argentine for that dirt. He is working the same game as he worked in the case of "spuds" when he sent out to Amsterdam, to Canada, to America and to the Sandwich Islands looking for "spuds" for John Bull. He is working the same game with regard to the dairy cow. Unfortunately we cannot change over from the dairy cow in 12 months. We cannot say on the 1st March, as we can say in the case of crops: "I will switch over and I will grow ten acres less oats, three acres less "spuds", and grow something else, because last year, when I took the Minister's advice and grew oats, he left it to me to feed the rats".

There are more cows and heifers in the country now than at any time in the past 20 years.

What about the Amsterdam spuds? I am at present dealing with milk.

You would not believe it.

Let his colleague, Deputy Morrissey, go into any industrialist in this country and ask him to produce an article at 4d. or 5d. under the cost of production and see what answer he will get and how long that industry will last.

According to the Deputy, the cost of production is 8d. per gallon.

The Minister considers he has the unfortunate farmer caught, that the farmer has now been driven into a position by him in which he will produce more and get less. By reducing the price every year, he considers that he will get the beggar to work harder. That is the Minister's policy, but the Minister's policy cannot be and will not be carried out. In 12 months' time, if the Minister pursues that policy, he will have no bother in selling butter, because he will be rationing us at 2 ozs. per person. I shall probably be here in two years' time and I hope the Minister is here also, whatever side of the House he is on. If he survives the general election, I shall remind him of what he did for the farmers of this country. If the Minister is at any time prepared to play fair with the agricultural community, I give him a guarantee that I shall give him every assistance he requires and I shall give it to him freely.

He would be in a bad way if he wanted that.

It would be far better than taking the advice of a crack-brain who can give advice about nothing. The Deputy had better say nothing more about that or I shall let a few more cats out of the bag. I shall make a fair suggestion to the Minister. Instead of acting the playboy, as he has been doing with regard to everything he lays his hands on, let him come along boldly and in this famous farm he has bought —I forget the price—and set up a little costings board—he was very anxious about costings when he was in opposition——

Did the Deputy produce the costings?

Here they are in my hand. On these costings the Minister's predecessor fixed the price of milk at 1/2 and 1/4.

No. The Deputy knows that that is not true.

They were not out then.

If the farmer is able to produce to-day a gallon of milk and sell it to the Minister at 1/2 a gallon— if the farmer is able to do that to-day— with the cost of production increased by 3½d. per gallon, I know where he got the motor car he is driving around in now. He did not get it from the Minister. He got it out of the profits he made when dealing with a decent Minister for Agriculture.

A decent taxpayer.

The Minister was absent a while ago when I told the House that on Professor Murphy's figures the cost of production of beet has gone up by 4/6 a ton since 1948. That will give him a fair idea of the increased cost of production of farm food.

I understood the Deputy to say that farmers bought motor cars out of the profits they made on milk. He just said the cost of milk was over 1/1½ and the price fixed for the milk was 1/2. Did they buy motor cars out of the ½d.?

If they are able to live on what they are getting from you now they were well able to buy motor cars out of it.

If they are able to live to-day, when the cost of production has gone up by 3½d. a gallon, on the same price as operated in 1947, then they should have been millionaires under Fianna Fáil.

They are able to live.

Are they? I heard the Minister, speaking on this Estimate, talk about mortgaging land. There is not a man of them that I know, anyway—and I would be prepared to have a plebiscite taken on this—who would not be prepared to mortgage his land in the hope that any money would get rid of that Minister for Agriculture.

Utter nonsense.

The Deputy is having a nightmare.

Provided they are members of the Fianna Fáil Party.

I am prepared to have a plebiscite taken on it.

Be satisfied with the figures.

The Chair has a shrewd suspicion that it has heard all this several times before on this Estimate.

Nine men went to mow a meadow, did they not?

I was dealing with the cost of production of milk and with the bluff the Minister for Agriculture endeavoured to put across the farmers of this country by pretending he had a surplus of butter when he had not any surplus of butter and knew he had no surplus of butter. Apparently the Minister thought the best means of defence is attack and he worked that very successfully and very cutely. He said to the farmers: "The position abroad is very bad. All those glorious markets I was going to get for you are all gone. I find, when I go to them, that I am under-sold." If I went with the butter I would get only a price at which I would not sell it, because my cows are 200-gallon cows. The fellows competing against me have 700- and 800-gallon cows because they have the Pekinese breeds that the Minister was sneering at and they get 700 or 800 gallons per cow. The farmer here has a breed not moulded by himself—a breed which was moulded by the Government and moulded by all Governments we have had for the past 25 or 30 years since the Livestock Breeding Act was put into operation. We have the result of that.

What about the price you did not get during the economic war?

It is only the odd farmer here and there in this country who has decided to cut the painter and have his own policy carried out so that he could produce milk from the 800-gallon cow and the 1,200-gallon cow. To do that he had to switch over and put up with every kind of abuse.

Deputy Allen has presented something for your perusal, Deputy.

Do not worry. I can promise the Minister——

——that you are good for another hour.

Because of appeals which have been made, I do not wish to delay the House, but I could tell the Minister about his sins for the next six months.

I beg the Deputy's pardon. Did he say he was moved by appeals? I am glad that he has listened to appeals.

If we were to get on with the debate we would do much better.

With profound respect, the Deputy has had three and a quarter hours. This is the fourth hour.

I could speak on the sins of the Minister and on the outrages he has committed against the agricultural community for the next 80 hours if I had the physical endurance to do it.

I bet you a bob you have not.

The farmers know the truth.

I could drive it home to him. I could speak to him with the knowledge that I have.

Of nothing.

The farmers in my part of the country have sent me here for the past 25 years to look after their interests.

You never cared for them.

You can go there and have another go at it. Those are some, at least, of the charges I have to make against the Minister. I do not like altogether to pass away from the milk question because it is a very serious one. It represents over 40 per cent. of the farmers' total income and the Minister should consider it on those lines.

In regard to the Minister's famous scheme I should like to say that I asked him a question on the 1st of March as to the quantity of lime and fertilisers that he had spread in the counties Mayo and Monaghan under the land rehabilitation project. That was on the 1st of March, 1950. We all know that those are the first two counties in which the Minister worked his scheme.

Monaghan and Mayo were the first.

A six mark question.

Monaghan, Louth, Carlow, Kilkenny, Wicklow and Wexford.

What were the first counties?

There were six counties.

What were the first? What about Mayo? Monaghan was one of them, anyhow.

If the Deputy remembered the anniversary of the foundation of the Land League he would remember the date on which Mayo came into the scheme.

I do not recollect it now.

The Deputy should remember it.

Does the Deputy forget it? He has a very bad memory.

The Deputy has as good a memory as anybody in this House and he is proud of it.

Let us get on with the Estimate and stop this conversation.

The Minister, replying to a question I asked him last March about the quantity of lime and fertilisers spread on the land in one, anyway, of the counties in which this scheme was brought in, answered: "None,"—no lime, no fertilisers spread. I would like to know from the Minister how many acres were drained in his last scheme in County Monaghan.

I gave the Deputy a complete return to-day.

How long ago is it since the first of it was drained? Surely, there should be some justification offered, and it would not be any great shock to give us the quantity of lime or fertilisers.

I gave the Deputy a complete return, did I not, to-day?

The Minister would get the lime in Tuam.

He would not get much in it now.

Cheap lime, he told me once, very cheap lime. The Minister should at least keep to the guarantee he gave the people. Because of the fact that a day has been fixed for the adjournment of the House, I do not wish to delay Deputies any further this evening on the subject of agriculture. I might, before the debate concludes, say a few more words, and I would like to remind the Minister of that.

About the summer price of milk?

It is my right in Committee to speak again on the Estimate. If the Minister wishes to look it up, he will find I established a precedent for it a few years before he arrived in this establishment. I will make him a present of that.

What I want the Minister to do is to come out with some definite stabilised policy. I explained a while ago, before the Minister came in, that farming policy in various belts through the country is entirely different. You have areas where they grow grain for sale and you have the other poorer areas, like Mayo, portion of Galway, West Cork and Kerry, where they use the grain that is produced. I am wondering whether, with that knowledge, it would not be far better for the Minister definitely to fix a price—the cost of production, plus a fair profit—for the growers of grain.

I asked him to fix a guaranteed price when the farmers were setting barley. If he did so, the farmers would know where they were. Surely the Minister will agree that it is far better to grow those things at home. At least it would save the millions he is sending abroad. The first duty of the land of this country is to produce food for our people. If there is a surplus, let it travel, but we should not go on paying in dollars for foreign muck to feed our stock and, after feeding the animals here, you have to put upon their backs 8/- a cwt. of a subsidy to send them to a foreign market.

Would the Deputy borrow that paper from the Library and read it — page 17?

I do not read any foreign books.

It would do you good if you did. Read page 17 and see the result of the policy you are advocating.

That is what has happened the Minister. I have results enough here in the leading article of the Irish Independent, which refers to the 2,000 cwt. of Wiltshire sides that the Minister sent down at 217/- and that were sold to our wholesalers at 245/-, and he sent out along with them £17,900 of the Irish people's money as a subsidy for John Bull, so that he could have something to eat. That is enough for me, considering that the same Minister has to send out to Mesopotamia or somewhere else, possibly to Formosa, and pay another £1,000,000. They went to Mesopotamia for that muck, to Iraq for the barley and to the Argentine for more muck.

And to Russia for the jewels.

You are a nice jewel yourself, my boy, jewel enough for anyone. I would like to conclude on this note. Would it not be far better for the Minister to leave all other considerations out of it and say to himself: "Now I am going to do something for Irish agriculture; I am going to do something which, if it will not bring back the 47,000 young men I drove off the land since I came into office, will at least keep on the land those who are left"? Let the Minister start off in the morning and draw up a decent plan of campaign under which the skilled agricultural labourer will get at least the wage that is paid to the unskilled builder's labourer to-day.

The agricultural labourer is getting 20 per cent. more to-day than he was getting when the Deputy was in office.

Let the Minister argue on that, and find out the cost of production. He has enough Government farms to enable him to get those costs of production.

I have the Deputy's costings.

Use them.

The Minister knows from those costings that, in the case of beet, the cost of production has increased since he came into office by 4/6 a ton. Here is a fair and an honest challenge to the Minister. Will he give that 4/6 to the farmer this year? We are entitled to it. Will the Minister go to the Minister for Finance, who refused to honour the Sugar Company's recommendation last year to give that 4/6? His refusal resulted in £1,250,000 being sent out of the country for this muck that I have here before me. It will be my judgment of the Minister's honesty of purpose as to whether or not he is prepared to recommend that that 4/6 a ton will be given to the farmer this year for his beet. The farmer is entitled to it. Let the Minister get the costs of production.

I have them.

Let the Minister build up on that and bring the beet costings up to date and then say "calf and all". I ask him to bring the costings up to date on the basis of a minimum wage of £5 a week for the agricultural labourer. Surely the Minister will agree with me that if I have a lad working for me on my farm who has to milk cows on Sundays as well as Mondays, and if he has a brother who walks off the farm to take up work as a builder's labourer, digging foundations for labourers' cottages, for which he is being paid £5 a week, that he should have something more than £3 10s. 0d. a week. He surely is entitled to as much as his brother, who has £5 a week as a builder's labourer.

His brother on the farm had only 50/- a week when you were in office.

Will the Minister try and forgot the kind of shabbiness that left the old farmer with his barley in 1948?

What about 1944 and 1946?

The Minister says that he has given 5/- a barrel more to the farmer for his barley than his predecessor gave. I ask the Minister to forget that kind of meanness, because the Minister had the opportunity of giving the old farmer about £500,000 out of the £2,000,000 which, he said, the farmer had been robbed of. Instead of giving that £500,000 to the farmer, he threw it into the coffers of Arthur Guinness and Son.

The Deputy said 99 per cent. of that before.

I am only endeavouring to close up this matter. If the Minister asks me questions I cannot help answering him. Let us have a decent basis for agriculture here which will put it above politics. I am speaking as a farmer and as one who makes his living out of the land. I am asking the Minister for Agriculture to fix the basis that I suggest. He was shocked that I should mention £5 a week for agricultural labourers.

By a man who paid them 50/-.

By a man who paid them £3 10s. 0d. I invite the Minister down to meet the men who are working for me. I am prepared to turn out a team of men for the Minister who have been working for Martin Corry, some of them since 1918 and more since 1922 and 1923, when we came back home from jail. They have been working for me ever since and they are all good pals and good chums of mine. I take a certain amount of pride in these men. I consider that all this talk about a subsidy is bosh. The farmer is getting no subsidy.

The farmer is getting a price now.

Which he was not getting before.

The farmer never did get any subsidy. The subsidy is put there to enable the fellow with £800 a year to get his grub cheaper.

That was true.

And is true. A few months ago the Minister for Finance swept down and grabbed £1,000,000 out of the coffers of the Sugar Company, of which £250,000 should have gone to the farmers who have been growing beet by giving them an extra 4/6 a ton.

The Chair has been very lenient with the Deputy, but I do not propose to be lenient much longer.

I have to reply to these different matters when they are brought in.

It seems to me to be much the same matter that the Deputy is dealing with.

I say that that £250,000 is the property of the beet growers and that it should be given to them to enable them to meet the costs of production. With regard to smaller industries, I would ask the Minister to buckle down to this fact: that in one year it might be a profitable thing to bring in something from abroad, but that on the day he kills an Irish industry, let it be tomato-growing, pea-growing or beet-growing, on that day that industry is finished. Therefore, he will not have that industry there when the times change, as happened with the sugar.

With regard to the growing of peas in Offaly, Leix and Kildare, does the Minister mean to tell me that a man growing them to-day can do so at 5/- per cwt. less than he grew them in 1947? Does the Minister mean to tell me that? Is that the law the Minister has laid down for them? Is that the position at the present time in regard to peas? The Minister knows that it is. He dare not deny it because I have met respectable, decent, hardworking farmers from East Cork who were up on a deputation to the Minister and who know what the Minister's attitude is.

When was this?

A few months ago, when the Minister told them that he could get foreign peas and that he would bring them in and that they could give up the game and grow grass.

The Deputy is a bit out of date.

I am not. The Minister dealt with it. I am dealing with what the Minister dealt with during the past 12 months.

You are out of date.

The Minister is not out of date.

No, but the Deputy is.

The Minister is not out of date and when we get the returns of the reduction in the acreage of peas in a few months' time, as we got the returns for the reductions in the acreage of beet, we shall know then how much out of date the Minister is and we will know how much extra he has transferred out of the farmers' pockets.

What was the total acreage of peas?

We shall know then what should have gone into the farmers' pockets here, just as we know in the case of flax.

What was the total acreage of peas?

The Minister should know that. He is paid to know it.

The Minister is getting £2,250 a year to know that.

I do know it.

Then do not be asking me. The object of a question is to get some information that one has not already got. If the Minister keeps that up, he will do a lot better.

The information I wanted was — is the Deputy as ignorant as I believe him to be.

The Minister should know these things himself. He should be able to judge what the reduction in the acreage means and how much the foreigner will got of money that should go into the Irish farmers' pockets. That is my complaint. The position is the same with regard to tomatoes. He wants to give the Dutchman something that the Irish farmer should have. That is the lopsided policy that has left the Minister in the position of having to send £17,000 over on the old bacon. That is the lopsided policy that has left him in the position of trying to sell butter that no one wants. That is the kind of lopsided policy we have. At the same time he is rushing all over the world for things that could be and should be produced by our farmers here.

Are you talking about butter now?

He is talking about peas.

I am talking about the dual-purpose hen. How many eggs do you get out of her?

Still in search of old hens.

I do not propose to delay the House further.

A Deputy

Thank God!

I am glad that there appears to be general agreement and pleasure amongst the Deputies over there. I hope to give myself the pleasure of listening to a few of them and hearing their reasons for the changes that have been made. I should be very glad to hear them. The sooner they start the better.

Why did you put a beet factory in Tuam?

Why did you sell spuds for £5 a ton?

Why did you sell it for 30/-.

Will Deputy Rooney please restrain himself?

Deputy Rooney has given up the tomato growers.

I have sat here throughout the entire speech made by the ex-Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Smith. I have listened to practically the entire speech of Deputy Corry to-day. With all due respect to both of these Deputies, I believe that most of us who have listened to their speeches will have our time in purgatory considerably shortened. Undoubtedly, this is a most important Estimate. Having listened carefully to the ex-Minister's speech for five hours and 50 minutes, and having subsequently read his speech, I have come to the conclusion that what he said could have been said in at least half that time. I presume that other speakers on the Opposition Benches will follow on the same lines on beet, potatoes, oats, barley, Mesopotamia and everything else. I would suggest that a record should be made now of Deputy Corry's speech to-day, and it could do duty for the rest of the Fianna Fáil Party in this debate.

I found myself in agreement with certain of the criticisms offered by Deputy Smith. I was disappointed that he did not offer, or even attempt to offer, any solution to the problems he mentioned. I think it is the duty of every Deputy, and especially the duty of a Deputy who, even for a short time, occupied the position of Minister for Agriculture, to offer some constructive criticisms and solutions to the grave problems with which the man who succeeded him is faced. This debate should not be a matter of one political Party scoring political points over opponents. As Deputy Corry said, this debate should be above politics. Any Deputy who has points to raise should raise them, if he thinks they may be useful in the formation of agricultural policy as a whole.

I would like, first of all, to deal with exports in general and our policy in relation to them. Is it admitted to-day that British policy is, as it has always been, to buy the commodities she requires, be they agricultural or otherwise, in the cheapest market in which she can secure them? Is it admitted that it is also her policy to sell her manufactured goods in the dearest market she can obtain? I think it is time we got away from the idea of even suggesting that the British regard us as favoured friends. We shall get the same treatment from Britain as any other country that has the same commodities to sell as we have. We will have to sell in competition with Belgium, Denmark, the Argentine, America, and all the other countries from which Britain buys the goods she needs. If we admit that, then we should stop throwing stones at present Ministers or ex-Ministers in relation to the agreements they have made with Britain. Every Minister who goes out to make an agreement does the best he can. Unless he has the goods to offer and can offer them at a price that will compare with prices in other countries, he can do very little.

We had an example here recently of our offer to Britain of bacon. I understand that Britain is in a position to get bacon around 217/- a cwt. from European sources, and the lowest we can offer it is 240/- a cwt.; that Britain is able to secure butter at 2/6 a lb. elsewhere and the cheapest we can offer it is around 3/6 per lb. How can any Minister be blamed then if he fails to make an agreement with Britain on these particular products of our land? I think we will have to look a little further for the reason why our products cost so much and why we are not able to sell them in competition with other countries. I would say for a start that, in connection with butter and bacon, if things were right in this country at the present time we would not be able to export an ounce of butter or bacon for many years to come because if our population was the size that it should be we would be able to absorb far more bacon, butter and eggs produced at home than we are absorbing at the present time. The fact is that our population is dwindling in this country especially in the rural areas. If we look to that as the main problem facing us — that we are not absorbing enough of our own agricultural products at home, that if we were producing three or four times the amount we are now producing that we should be able to sell them if we had reached the stage where the population was what it should be. When that stage is reached it will be quite time enough to start talking about exports of our products.

Last year I congratulated the Minister on a statement he made concerning the 11-months' system of letting land when he spoke in, I think it was, Mullingar.

It was in Meath.

Speaking in County Meath the Minister threatened all sorts of penalties on farmers and those landlords who set out their land on the 11-months' system and just used their farms as a mode of income to support themselves while they lived in London, Dublin or elsewhere at the expense of the Irish community. I am afraid that in spite of the thunder and fire threatened by the Minister at the time that he has achieved very little in that matter so far.

Faith he has.

Deputy Giles can give his own explanation in his own speech and I will be glad to hear of any effect that the Minister's threats have achieved.

I would not say that I issued any threats. I said it was the policy of the Government and those forming it to insist that those who worked on the land would get it and if those who owned the land did not work it and preserve it it would be taken from them in time and given to those who would work it.

I agree with the Minister's explanation but I do not think I have been misquoting him. To my mind, however, there has been no great difference in the position since he made that statement that those who did not work their land would have it taken from them.

With compensation, of course.

With compensation. I want to say that I do not think much success has attended the Minister's efforts in this direction. I believe that to-day a great deal of this land is being used for purely grazing purposes and that a greater amount is now being set on the 11-months' system than has been the case for many years past.

Would that not be a matter more appropriate for the Department of Lands?

The reason I mention it is that the Minister made a statement last year on the matter and I understand that the activities of the Department of Agriculture should be closely associated with those of the Department of Lands.

If the Minister made that statement the Deputy should not follow his bad example.

The statement arose out of a question of taking over lands which were not being utilised in the best interests of the country and of the community.

The Minister stated that the use of the land of Ireland should be in the hands of those who work it and that absentee landlords never used the land well.

I understand that it is in the province of the Department of Lands to say whether land is being used in a husband-like fashion.

If we are going to get this increased production which the Minister is so anxious to have, the lands must be properly used. I understand that they are not being so utilised and that we have a state of affairs in this country where large tracts of lands are being let out on the 11-months' system. I can give the Minister an example in his own county of Roscommon where two individuals have 2,000 acres of land between them on the 11-months' system. They are not poor farmers with ten or 15 acres who get the land sublet to them. These individuals have taken the lands on the 11-months' system and in doing so they are depriving small farmers or congested holders of five or six acres of conacre on which they have for years past grown oats and barley.

I suggest that the Deputy pass from that matter because I cannot allow this angle to be opened up. If I do, we will have everybody dealing with the distribution of land in his area and that is not within the province of the Department of Agriculture, but a matter for the Department of Lands.

I will not go further into the matter except to say to the Minister that large areas of the land of this country at the moment are not being properly used for productive purposes and that in spite of the statement he made in Meath last year there has been very little change in that position.

There are a few other specific points to which I would like to refer in connection with agriculture. The first is in connection with the setting up of demonstration farms in the different counties. These have already been referred to by Deputy Cogan. At the present time the lectures given by the Department of Agriculture experts in the schools and parish halls are proving very useful as also are the pamphlets issued by the Department. But I submit that even these things do not get home to the majority of farmers the value of good methods of husbandry in a way that it would be got home to them by the setting up of demonstration farms. On these farms the methods of cropping could be shown. On the larger ones you could have soil testing and analysis and the value of mechanisation on the farm on a co-operative basis could be demonstrated more fully to the small farmer of 30 or 40 acres. I think that a demonstration farm situated in that locality should have agricultural machinery available for hiring out to the farmer at a nominal cost. That would be a solution for Deputy Cogan's problem and there should be no need in the world for credit to enable the farmer to buy tractors and reapers for himself. I do not think that there is any reason why a small farmer should have to purchase for himself these modern aids to agriculture when they can be made available to him on a basis of hiring from the local machinery station. I hope the Minister will consider that aspect of the matter in future.

Or one farmer could buy the machinery and hire it to his neighbour when necessary.

I have no objection to that. That happens in quite a number of farms but I do not agree that it is necessary that each individual farmer should buy this machinery for his own use only, unless he has a big farm and can afford it. I feel somewhat hesitant at times in dealing with matters agricultural because people will say: "You are not a practical farmer." I know that comes easily from the mouths of people like Deputy Killilea who, parrot-like, repeat to-morrow what was said yesterday by Deputy Smith. However, I was reared on a farm and it is for that reason that I take my courage in my hands in speaking in this debate.

There is an angle of the agricultural industry that I do not feel is getting very close consideration at the moment and that is the question of industries that are based or should be based on agriculture. In other words, agricultural products are the raw materials on which these industries could be built. I shall take what is, to my mind, a very important example, Irish whiskey. I think that Deputy Corry mentioned it here some time ago. We have the raw materials for the production of whiskey and we have the technicians. We produce the best whiskey in the world and yet we have not even cornered 1 per cent. of the world market. I think it is a tragic state of affairs when other countries outside Ireland are able to corner almost the entire market for the whiskey supplies of the world. It is admitted and acknowledged that Irish whiskey is the best in the world and it should be one of our principal sources of earning dollars. I believe that around the beginning of this century we had 20 distilleries in this country; we have now only six. I suggest to the Minister that if the people who run these distilleries do not utilise them in the best interests of the country the State should step in and nationalise them.

The Deputy should not forget that whiskey must be more than five years old before it can be marketed.

I understand that but it is a pity this was not done years ago. It would be no harm to do it now so that when the whiskey is matured, in ten or 15 years' time, we can find a market for it because nobody can deny that the market is always there. There is a perfect cycle in this industry. Barley is a first-class cash crop for the farmer. The work gives first-class employment and the grain residue is useful for feeding cattle while we could earn much needed dollars by the export of whiskey. I think that is a very sound suggestion and it is one to which I urge the Minister to give careful consideration.

Everything possible will be done to persuade distillers to develop the market.

I hope that it will not be lump-sugar persuasion.

I think the majority of men of good will are satisfied to do everything they can to develop it.

I merely ask the Minister to take steps to be able to satisfy the House that the people in charge of that important industry are conducting the affairs of the industry for the national welfare.

I leave that interesting problem to pass on to one that has been mentioned here very often, namely our bacon industry. I have not very much to say on that except that I believe that there is a mess-up in the bacon situation. I do not like to hear Deputies on the opposite side of the House, however, blaming the present Minister for the mess that exists in regard to bacon. The difference between the administration that exists now and the Fianna Fáil administration is that there is bacon now that was not there when Fianna Fáil were in office. That is the big difference. I believe that the position of the bacon factories must be closely examined. We had a sudden increase in the price of bacon recently. The Minister went very thoroughly into the question last week and described the beauties of pig's cheek in comparison with the best slices of back rasher. I do not dispute that at all but I have here with me two price lists from a factory. One is dated 9th January, 1950 and I shall give an example of the increase in prices that occurred since. Wiltshire sides, the leanest, were quoted at 236/- per cwt. on 9th January. The same product on 29th May was quoted at 260/- a cwt.

Which is certainly too dear.

The hard cured long clear variety was quoted at 236/- on 9th January; on 29th May the same long clear was 264/-. With regard to pigs' heads, on 9th January pigs' heads were quoted at 58/- per cwt. and on 29th May at 94/- a cwt. In January, as far as I could gather, these people in bacon factories were supposed to be doing very well. They were not supposed to be dying of starvation and the directors were not supposed to be obliged to pay the wages of their men out of their own pockets. Yet between 9th January and 29th May we had an increase of 30 per cent. in some cases and a little more in others in the price of bacon. Now we are told this month that that particular factory, the Claremorris Bacon Company, and another one in Cork are about to close down.

No. Castlebar, and one in Cork.

At any rate I would ask the Minister to look into that question.

And perfectly right. 260/- is an excessive price and it must come down.

I am very glad to hear the Minister say so and I hope it comes down very soon.

I hope so too — within 24 or 48 hours.

If the Minister is not satisfied with the conditions that exist in the bacon factories why does he not examine the possibilities — he has already suggested that he had it in his mind — of taking over control of these factories himself? Why not consider setting up one of these factories on a co-operative basis and let the shareholders in the factory be the people who produce the pigs?

That is the case in one of these factories and it is on them I am depending to bring down the price.

Does the Minister hope to be able to extend that to the other factories?

If that does not succeed the resources of civilisation are not exhausted.

I take it from the Minister's reply that if he does not succeed in getting the reduction in price, he is prepared to consider something on the lines I have suggested to him here. Another item I should like to mention on this Estimate is the question of fertilisers. I think it is time that the question of soil testing should be examined so that a proper system of manuring could be introduced on our farms. In the debate on the Vote for Industry and Commerce and also in some other debate various Deputies raised the question of starting the manufacture of sulphate of ammonia here. I think it was on the debate for the Department of Industry and Commerce, and also on other debates, that various speakers spoke of starting a sulphate of ammonia industry here. The Minister should give very careful consideration to that. We have the gypsum deposits in Cavan and Monaghan and we could produce the sulphuric acid, both of which provide the raw material from which the sulphate of ammonia is made. It is more useful for fertilisers and it is very necessary. I think Deputy de Valera, Junior, is the man who is very keen on the question of defence.

Explosives.

Exactly. I find that the present Minister for Agriculture, although I may disagree with him at times on aspects of his policy, is prepared to look ahead and consider new ideas. At least he has the courage to go ahead and try and so long as a man tries to do his best, even though he may make mistakes in his endeavour, I shall not be the first to criticise him. It is much better to make mistakes than to sit back — as his predecessor sat back and failed to make up his mind for the period during which he was in office.

I do not think that the production of ice-cream has been mentioned. The Minister is seeking alternative markets for our surplus milk and I can think of no more suitable way of utilising it than for ice-cream. There are plenty of people in this country who produce a quality of ice-cream that would not reach even the minimum standards required in the United States of America. It is admitted that ice-cream is no longer a luxury if it is produced at the required standard. It is of the highest nutritional value not alone for children but for grown-ups also. I understand that in 1935 steps were to be taken to fix a standard for ice-cream. Fifteen years have elapsed and these steps were never taken.

I am glad to inform the Deputy that the requisite directions were given three days ago.

Three days ago? I am not far out. I suggest that a high standard be imposed in this connection. If that is done, immense quantities of milk, cream and milk powders will be absorbed.

The first time I spoke on this Estimate I said, speaking on behalf of our Party, that we would not for a moment tolerate a position here, as members of this Government, where there would be a reversion to what was the policy at one time — the rancher and his dog. The Minister has repeatedly asked farmers to produce more food at home — more potatoes, oats, barley and so forth. I thoroughly agree with that but I am afraid that, in spite of the Minister's wish, it is not being fulfilled. If a Minister for Agriculture in this country implores our farmers to grow more potatoes, oats, barley and so forth and if, at the same time, we allow large quantities of foreign maize meal into the country, we are doing a disservice to our farmers. I understand that granaries are being built in this country where adequate supplies of grain can be stored. I must say that I am delighted about that because it is one solution of the problem. It should be one means of stabilising the market for the farmer.

It is all very fine to say that this year the farmers are asked to produce oats and potatoes if, all of a sudden, foreign meal is made available at a cheaper price, in spite of the fact that through the use of that foreign meal we are able to feed pigs and so forth. We are doing harm to our industry and we are not stabilising it when we take advantage of our farmers and buy foreign meal at a cheaper price. We should plan on a long-term basis. It is criminal and national folly on the part of the Department of Agriculture to buy foreign grain while we can produce the grain and the foodstuffs at home. As far as our Party is concerned, we want to see as much as possible in the line of foodstuffs and crops in general produced on the land and we do not want to see this importation of foreign meal taking place while our farmers are in a position to supply us.

Suppose you can consume all we can produce from our own land? Is there anything wrong, after we have processed that, in bringing in further raw materials and adding to our total production?

No, but we have not reached that stage yet in this country. It is not so long ago when we had surplus quantities of oats and potatoes. I do not want to go into that matter in detail at all, but I do not think we have reached the stage yet that we are able to absorb all we can produce at home, or anything like it. When our farmers are exhorted to grow more of this crop or of that crop there is no point in making a declaration the next day or the next week or the next month as follows: "I am glad to be able to inform the farmers of this country that maize meal"— or something else —"will be available in quantities from abroad at such-and-such a price." If that happens the farmers down the country will not grow these crops. They will go to the shops and buy the imported produce. That is natural. The less hope the farmer has of getting that produce from abroad the more he will be inclined to grow it himself. I would be inclined to take a different view from that of the Minister and I would almost say to the farmers this year: "We are not going to be in a position to import one ounce of foreign foodstuffs. You had better start producing them at home."

The Deputy remembers the advertisement I published in February?

I hope the Minister will give serious consideration to that particular angle. I feel uneasy at times about the production of sufficient foodstuffs for our own use at home when I hear of the importation of foreign foodstuffs — especially when, as the Minister says, we could absorb at least twice the amount we actually produce at home. If that is so, as he himself says it is, I see no reason why any foreign meal should be allowed into this country until we are satisfied that the land of Ireland it not able to produce any more.

I think it is time somebody in this House dispelled the lachrymose atmosphere endeavoured to be created by the antics of an ex-Minister for Agriculture and the jocose semi-shopkeeper's act produced by Deputy Corry. The sooner the Opposition realise one fundamental fact, the better for themselves. The farming community are infinitely better off than they were under their régime, and they know it. You can try to blind yourself, fool yourself, cajole yourself and cod yourself, but the blunt fact remains that never before was there so much genuine prosperity in the over-all position of Irish agriculture. You can take it or lump it, it is a fact.

I intend to take much the same line as Deputy McQuillan. There are one or two problems in relation to which I can offer, I hope, some practical advice to the Minister. I offer it in no spirit of criticism. At least it can be said of this Minister, that he has the courage to try, and I have great respect for a trier, whether it is a man or a horse.

We have heard denunciations of certain foreign purchases made during last year, but it is time Fianna Fáil realised that every constructive effort made by the Minister to encourage the growth of cereals was sabotaged by them. My memory is not so short as to forget the East Donegal by-election when the yowl and howl went through the country about oats and some of the farmers who adhered to the advice of that strutting little Deputy from East Donegal, and listened to the loud-voiced condemnations of Deputy Davern, were very glad to get back their oats at an increased price.

They could not get it back from Germany.

I will deal in a moment with the reverse type of calculation that Deputy Cogan can bleat about in this House.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

It is time it was realised that an attempt is now being made — and I think a very creditable attempt — by the present occupant of the Ministry of Agriculture to give the farmers some kind of an agricultural policy and some kind of a planned basis of price. I heard an appeal going out in this House from Deputy Martin Corry that agriculture should be placed above politics. All that sounds very well, coming particularly on the heel of a long argument about beet, when we know perfectly well — and Deputy Allen, Deputy Corry's colleague, could have told him — that it would have been infinitely better, far less political and far less like Party politics to have a beet factory in Wexford, where they could supply it; but they put one in Tuam, for obvious reasons.

Deputy Killilea made many interjections here during the afternoon. I hope he will stand up before the debate concludes and justify how Fianna Fáil nurtured the white elephant of the Carlow beet factory into the monstrosity of a politically-placed beet factory in Tuam.

I listened for a considerable period to Deputy Patrick Smith from Cavan, ex-Minister for Agriculture, Deo gratias, and in the course of his five hours and 50 minutes' speech I did not hear one shred of intelligent, constructive criticism offered of the policy that is being pursued.

It was an endurance test.

I heard his rambling bleats and appeals for mercy to the present occupant of the Ministry of Agriculture. I heard him appeal loudly to the present occupant of the Ministry not to damn everything that he might be associated with, but he did not offer one constructive reason why anything he was ever associated with should be considered worthy of attention.

The Minister would not agree with you.

I am not surprised at your intelligence, Deputy.

You are a brainy man.

I represent a very large milk-producing constituency and I do not agree with Deputy Corry's interpretation of Professor Murphy's costings. I do not accept, nor will any farmer accept, that in those costings a calf is worth only £1, because the farmers realise that Fianna Fáil's day is done. I remember a time when a calf was worth nothing at all. Of course, that was a time when we were going to find so many other markets. Unfortunately for the farmers, so far from finding those markets, the farmers were left in such an impoverished state that they could not and did not meet, as they could otherwise have met, the impact of a war situation, not only to be in a position adequately to feed this country, but to have a surplus that would have been of amazing value to this country during the emergency period.

It sounds rather hypocritical, to put it mildly, to have to listen to advocates amongst the Opposition talk, as Deputy Smith did, about the colossal failures of the present Minister for Agriculture in view of the fact that the full period of their office was decorated, year after year and month after month, with the grossest of blunders which reduced the proud independent farming stock of this country to a state of near penury and beggary and that left our farmers without the right to think for themselves or to manage the husbandry of their farms in their own way. These people come into this House and, at wearisome length, just talk rubbish.

There are a few problems in which I am interested, not in that jealous, violent and vituperative way that Deputy Smith is interested in them. I am interested in the flax problem. I do not subscribe to the view that the Minister tried to bluff the Northern spinners. I think he tried to play a man's part and to do a manly job in an Irish way. I do not approve of the hat-in-hand, the bowing of the knee, tactics to anybody. I do say it is within the right of the Minister to urge on his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, if flax is a commercial proposition and a good crop for this country, the establishment of a linen industry in the Twenty-Six Counties which should be able to compete with the Northern spinners and beat them at their own game. My belief is that flax-growing will die out inevitably if some basis is not found for the consumption of the crop at home, because I know perfectly well that, if the opportunity presents itself to the Northern spinners to get their requirements anywhere else at less cost, they will forget all about any flax that is grown in the Twenty-Six Counties.

I think, despite what Deputy Smith suggested, that it is necessary to retain our flax inspectors. There is going to be a considerable amount of flax grown in my constituency. The spinners down there have heard what the Minister had to say and the growers there know what his attitude is. If those people want to go outside the advice of the Minister, they are perfectly at liberty to do so. If the crop pays them they are entitled to grow it, but I do not think it is fair or right, or that it is a bit becoming that, in his vituperative hate through loss of office, an ex-Minister should try to discredit his successor because his successor took what we in this House believe to have been an honest man's stand in a dispute.

Deputy Smith suggested that when the bluff was called, as he liked to put it, the Minister should have turned around and said, "please, what will you give me?" God forbid that the present Minister for Agriculture, James Dillon, is going to change his nature to that extent. I am urging on the Minister that he should use his judgment and his known powers of persuasion to see that flax, if we are to continue to grow it in this country, will have its own source of user, and that, if the Department is going to urge a continuance of the growing of flax, arrangements be made to have in the Twenty-Six Counties the necessary plant and factory to consume and use Irish flax. I suggest that is a matter that deserves careful inquiry. I am urging on the Minister that he should deal with flax on that basis. I think it would be very bad, nationally, if we were ever to see a mendicant farmer begging at the door of any vested interest in the North of Ireland for a price for his crop.

On the general question of cereal growing, I would say to the Minister that there is a very great need to have the country emblazoned again from end to end with the slogan immortalised by the late Paddy Hogan: "One more cow, one more sow and one more acre under the plough." I know that he has met, as was inevitable, the cross of an irritable and displaced Opposition, with all possible types of sabotage. Despite that I urge on the Minister that he should continue to urge on the Irish farmer to grow more and more cereals to feed his own live stock, so that ultimately our produce can compete, on merit alone, with that to be found in any market in any part of the world.

I heard in this House a tremendous amount of criticism of the Minister's milk policy. Nobody on the Opposition, however, has paused for a moment to consider that, for the first time in the history of this country, the present Minister for Agriculture has asked the primary producers to have a talk with him as to what they will do. There are no directions now and there are no threats of persecution or of invoking the mighty arm of the law as happened when Deputy Smith was in office. Instead, there is now an invitation to the primary producers to discuss the matter with the Minister, in the light of the knowledge available to the Department, as to what is best for the future of the industry. The Opposition were disgusted when the price of milk was not reduced overnight. It was blazoned throughout the country — it was the lying rumour which they are so competent in spreading—that a reduction was coming overnight, but it did not happen. Instead, the creameries and the farmers' representatives were asked to come and discuss the problem with the Minister. They were told that there would be no reduction in the price of milk unless the farmer himself agreed to it.

Either this year or next year?

Either this year or any other year. There are some matters that I have to discuss with the Deputy later. I am glad to be able to say that the Minister was able to reopen a market for violets in my constituency. That aroused a sort of a smirk in this House when mentioned on the first occasion. I am glad to be able to tell the Minister that we hope in the near future to have at Glandore and Union Hall the thriving violet business that we had there before.

There is one thing that I will always say in the Minister's favour. I have said it in my constituency and I will say it in the Dáil: at least he has given the farmer back his self respect. He is letting the farmer become once more captain of his own ship. He is letting him decide his own economy. It is true, as Deputy McQuillan pointed out, that bacon is becoming a problem. For a change, it is the presence of bacon that is becoming a problem. As the Minister succeeded in breaking the cartels and rings that controlled other live agricultural commodities, he will bring the bacon curer to heel. Of course any difficulties that might arise would look good to Deputy Killilea because he would be sure to find down in his own constituency some people prepared to listen open-mouthed to his stupid pronouncements.

We have a very intelligent Deputy speaking.

I am very glad you admit it.

And you know it.

The amazing thing with regard to bacon is that the Minister was able to fulfil his promise too quickly. Expansion came too quickly. The tremendous quantity of bacon coming into existence created its own problem and there were certain people who were anxious to corner the market and make more than a legitimate profit out of it. Knowing that the Minister successfully ferreted out the illegal curer in the cellar and the people who were charging excessive prices for poultry, I have every confidence that in the very near future the Minister will right the bacon situation. It is a grand thing to see the pigs around again. Pigs are something stable and something real in Irish agricultural economy. The people realise that and they are glad to see them around again.

Before I conclude, I want to offer a word of solace to the people of Wicklow whose representative here painted a most gloomy picture with the aid of figures of all kinds that only he could unearth for his own particular purposes. The poor Deputy does not seem to realise the very outstanding fact that, if he walks around his own constituency, he does not see the lachrymose, woeful expression that he wears here on the faces of the farmers in his constituency. He will be glad to know that the farmers of Wicklow are now able to enjoy the frugal fruits of a little van or a small motor car. That, of course, is done, I take it, according to the Deputy, on the colossal losses and the amazing increases in the cost of production which leave no profit on the figures Deputy Cogan so lachrymosely and long-windedly expounded here. The position is that the farmer is rapidly proceeding from good to better. Good luck to the Minister. May we be quickly spared any more of the long-winded, cribbing, semi-melodramatic, play-acting of the ex-Minister for Agriculture and the pseudo-disappointment that characterised the speech of a certain Deputy who possibly feels that he might make an excellent occupant of the post of Minister for Agriculture and whom we feel we are very fortunate in not having in that post.

I listened to Deputy Collins and Deputy McQuillan. Both were inclined to criticise the Minister a little. I am sure that if they were behind closed doors down the country with their own supporters they would not have been quite so restrained in their criticisms as they have been. Deputy Collins was inclined to be cross with the people over here. He accused them of obstructing and sabotaging the schemes put forward by the Minister. Where the interests of the Irish nation are concerned, Fianna Fáil has never obstructed or sabotaged any effort. When agreements are made with foreign countries, and with Britain in particular, it cannot be said that there are any fifth columnists amongst the Fianna Fáil Party or their supporters.

Everybody who has spoken has stressed the fact that agriculture is our chief industry, that discussion on it should take place in a calm atmosphere and that criticism should be reasoned. In my opinion, every Minister of State should be both cautious and restrained in making statements. He should err on the side of caution rather than recklessness. I have a charge to make against the present Minister in the latter respect. He came in here with the Estimate for his Department in 1948. He told us that it had been prepared by his predecessor. He asked that a certain sum of money be granted to defray the costs of his Department. He said: "I am not going to deal with the sub-heads, but if any Deputy wishes to ask me any questions relating to them I will be quite pleased to reply to them when I am replying." He said that he was very impatient to get on and outline the headings, in so far as they related to agriculture, of an agreement that had just been completed in Britain. After some little discussion with the Chair as to the lines the statement should follow, the Minister was permitted to proceed. He certainly was impatient. Anybody could see that. He was so anxious to get going that he reminded one of a frog on an ant hill. He started off by telling us of all the wonderful things he accomplished and the wonderful things that there would be in store for the Irish farmers, at home and in Britain, if they would only do the things he expected and requested them to do. In Volume 111, column 2596 of the Dáil Debates, 9th July, 1948, the Minister made the following statement:

"Oats I need not speak of because their value is too well known. `Grow,' I say to the farmers, `all the oats your land will produce and you will sell them profitably either in bag or on hoof during the winter and the spring of next year.' "

Hear, hear!

The Minister says "hear, hear," but in the same column he says:—

"There is a guaranteed market for 50,000 tons of ware potatoes in Great Britain at £10 13s. 6d. per ton delivered f.o.b. at a port in Ireland between November and February and £11 8s. 6d. per ton delivered at the same port between February and May. None of us will grow rich on that and if the British want any increased supplies of potatoes from this country they will want to straighten themselves and pay a bit more but there is no obligation on them."

These were statements made by the Minister.

Were they not sound?

It is a good sound principle to advise farmers to grow more and to have it sold off the farm on hoof but there are thousands of farmers in this country who are not in a position to do that and are not in a position to put in sufficient stock to use the produce of their own soil. There are lands in this country, particularly in the West of Ireland, where they must till it even in spite of themselves and if they have to lay it down they must leave it in grass for periods of not more than three years. If they do not despite all the scientific researches of the Department and others their cattle will die from poisonous weeds. They have to till the land and produce the grain. 1948 was a good year. There was a large acreage and a bountiful crop but how were they to get it away. They could not get it away in the normal way in which they did in other years and they were in the position that they had to sell at £1 per barrel and in many instances it was not even taken at that price. Their case was put up to the Minister on several occasions and the only answer he gave them was: "Let them feed it to their live stock and take it off the farm on hoof." That was all right for the people who could afford to do that but there were many who were not in a position to do it. At the time the Minister went to the United States and the Minister for Defence acted as his substitute.

During the period the Minister was away and on the eve of the by-election in East Donegal the price was fixed at 28/- per barrel. That looked grand and the farmers were delighted. They rushed in to the grain merchants who were in the habit of buying their seed but the grain merchants already had their stores full and said they could not take any more for the time being but they presumed that the farmers would not have long to wait until they could take it. I heard Deputy Cogan speaking here last night say that that was an excellent scheme. It certainly was and at the time it was a welcome guest if they had been able to operate it properly. In order to operate it it was stated that agents were to be appointed. They were appointed but in a way that did not help the situation. In the second largest county in Ireland — Galway — one merchant was appointed. I have no animus against the man who is a decent man but he had only been in the grain purchasing business for four or five years previously and the people in Ballinasloe, Athenry, Loughrea and Galway were left dependent on him to buy their grain at that period of the year. He received telegrams, letters and phone calls but the man had no storage accommodation. I am sure if he had he would have taken all that was offered and he would have been in a position to pay for it all although it would have amounted to a very considerable sum of money but the fact of the matter was that he was not able to take any of the grain. All the other merchants all over the county in the various towns and villages who had been in the business for years got on to him and asked him what he could do and he could do nothing. What then was the position? The people with oats left on their hands could not get rid of them nor was it taken from them and a great deal of it went to waste. That was at the end of 1948, and the beginning of 1949. The same thing happened with the potatoes. I am not criticising the Minister for what happened because as I said it was a bountiful harvest and there was a big surplus. However, what I am criticising him for was that he told the farmers that that surplus could be sold profitably.

Yes, by walking it off the land.

If I had as much money as would establish a business as big as the Minister's I certainly could have done well but when I have not that money and can only have a business that would fit in one room of a labourer's cottage, I cannot do so well and the same applies in selling the potatoes on hoof.

If the Minister had come in here and told this House and the country what the agreement was, and what it meant, and had been much more careful in the statements he made, he would not have the criticisms levelled at him that have been levelled. He showed how reckless he was in making such statements. Then he tried to make the excuse that the statements made by Deputy Blaney and Deputy Davern were the cause of the scarcity of oats and potatoes the following year. The cause of the scarcity in oats and potatoes in 1949 was twofold. The principal cause was that owing to the way the Minister misled the farmers the previous year, the farmers did not go in for growing the same acreage of tillage as in the previous year. The second cause was the weather conditions. As was pointed out by Deputy Smith, last year was an ideal year for growing wheat. Everybody who grew wheat in 1949 grew it profitably because there was a big return and the year suited it but, for some reason or other, the year did not suit oats or potatoes nearly so well and consequently there was a diminished yield.

There was a diminished acreage.

There was a diminished acreage and there was a diminished yield per acre also. The Minister is not going to put me off the track because although I sport no red bouquet in my coat in this House or elsewhere, I have just as good an idea of practical farming as some of the people who have the neck to stand up and speak about it in this House. These were some of the things that were to flow from this trade agreement but there were other things too about which we were told. In column 264, Volume 111, the Minister is reported as saying:—

"I foresee with the improvement of grass land, with the improvement in the quality of feeding that we shall have for our cows in the course of the next two or three years, a great future for the butter industry, the cheese industry, the cream industry, the chocolate crumb industry, the condensed milk, the dried milk and baby food industry."

Then he said, as reported in col. 2607, and I ask Deputies to note these words:

"For the first time in history, I am in a position to say to the farmers of this country that there is an unlimited market at remunerative prices for cattle, sheep, pigs, poultry, butter, cream, cheese, bacon and potatoes, barley and oats, and the more they produce the better we hope the prices to be. There is no reservation and no qualification about it. I do not think that any Minister for Agriculture in this country has ever been in a position to say that before."

Very well, he comes along now, and what can he boast of that he is getting a fine price for? He boasts of live stock — cattle and sheep — on the British market. These are the only things he can rely on that are being sold without restriction on the British market, that are being sold without subsidy on that market.

What about eggs?

Yes. Of course, a few months after the Minister making that statement the price came down. You would imagine, after the nice way he talked to them over in Britain, and how well they got on, that the price would not fall by 6d. a dozen inside four or five months after he had been over there. It is difficult to listen to the Minister claiming credit for the good price we are getting for live stock on the British market now. That is a statement which I could not listen to without protest from even a Fianna Fáil Minister, because I would not tolerate bluff of that kind. We got a good price for our live stock, cattle, sheep and pigs in this country, as good as we are getting to-day, in the years 1918 to 1921. It is very strange that they did pay us such a good price then. What was the position from 1918 to 1921? The Minister remembers 1918. I hope he is not remembering it too well. I hope that it is not because of something that happened that year that he is being so bitterly hostile to the policy of self-sufficiency which means the self-preservation of this country. We got that price at a time when the British Army of occupation were here, when the "Auxies" and the Black and Tans were here, when every inch of the ground was being contested against them, both actively and passively, by the people of this country.

We know what happened in 1921 and the farmers know what happened. The farmers of this country during that period were in a position to keep a type of locomotion that was very fashionable at the time — a very fine, nice trap that was well turned out by the local coachbuilder, but, mind you, after a few years of all that great boom, a lot of the traps were left in the car house in the yard until the tyres fell off the wheels of any of them that could not be sold by auction to meet the debts that were contracted in order to purchase cattle to supply Britain in that boom period.

What year did that happen?

I said from 1918 to 1921 and the subsequent period between 1921 and 1929.

That was the time of the crash. We are now in 1948 and things are better. Are we not fortunate that things are getting better?

History has a knack of repeating itself. As I said, I would not stand up here to criticise the Minister, if the Minister had approached his responsibility properly. I would certainly point out the defects in his policy. Nobody can claim to be infallible although the present occupant of the Ministry of Agriculture goes nearer to that than anybody else. That is what has left our country in the position in which it is to-day. In addition to telling us about the great market he had for our surplus produce, of course he told us we were to get in foreign feeding stuffs at such a price as would enable us to sell our produce, particularly our live stock, far more profitably on the British market. I am not going to dwell on that at any length because we have all had experience of what happened. That is a development which others have mentioned and in regard to which the Minister cannot answer.

I hold that the primary function of any Minister for Agriculture is to set about the task of encouraging the farmers of this country to supply our full requirements. Does the Minister think he has done that? Does he want to make us believe he has done that? I will give a very short quotation. If anybody thinks the farming community, particularly the tillage farmers, could have confidence in a Minister who makes pronouncements such as those which this Minister makes, well, it would be nothing short of a miracle. In Volume 106, column 2038, speaking on the debate on agriculture, the Minister — Deputy Dillon as he was then — said:—

"Some day I am convinced that beet will go up the spout after peat and wheat. God speed that day."

I wonder if that is the policy of self-sufficiency that was expounded by the founders of Sinn Féin and operated in this country by Fianna Fáil? Is that what they hoped for and wished to see in their time? Now the Minister comes along with his supporters and tells us that he is giving all the encouragement possible to the farmers of this country to grow the requirements of the people of this country. He knows that that is not a fact, because, as I said, he has undermined the confidence of the farmers in following up a policy by the statements he has made. Even if it should cost more money, even if the cost were greater than that of either the imported foreign wheat or the imported foreign maize, I think it would be most profitable and most economic to ensure that we would produce a full supply of wheat; beet, barley, oats and all the other crops which are better than any we can import for our own people.

Are you not growing more beet in Connacht this year? Ask Deputy Killilea.

Because of the encouragement we got from the Minister over all the years.

We can talk about that later.

Deputy Beegan.

The farmers of this country should be encouraged. That is the primary duty of the Minister and it should be the fundamental aim of any Minister for Agriculture in this country. I hold that the Minister is not doing that. We are in a rather serious position, I think, if what we read in the papers is true. The world situation is anything but good and there is a pretty bleak outlook for humanity. What steps have been taken here to ensure that we would have the necessary requirements of the staple food of our people in this country? What steps has the Minister taken? The steps he has taken are, of course, to tell the people to work harder and produce more. There has to be an incentive other than that. Produce more for a lesser return in cash: that is not going to work with the farming community any more than with any other section of the community. The Minister knows well that if any improvements have been made by the present Government in regard to remuneration or conditions of other sections of the community, nothing has been done for the farmers that can be claimed by him to be an act of the present Government.

What is the price of wheat?

Yes, but was that price not there before the Minister took office?

The same price which the Minister gave had been fixed by Fianna Fáil for the following year.

Even if the Minister gave a little more, his price would still not come up to what it meant under the Fianna Fáil Government. After all, farmers' costs have increased just as well as those of every other section of the community.

But the price did go up?

The price went up for the 1948 crop but it had been fixed by the previous Minister.

The Deputy is rambling.

I am not rambling at all. The present Minister came along and instead of making it applicable for one year he gave it for five years. Is that not the true position?

No. Deputy Smith is there beside you. Ask him.

Deputy Smith is always orderly in this House.

Particularly on an occasion like this.

The Minister, in this House, and very often outside it, told us of the great fight the farmers made to establish title and ownership of their lands. That is quite true. They did make that fight and they succeeded but, if they did succeed, the very great help they got from the people of the towns and cities of this country must be remembered — from the tradesmen, the artisans and from the small business people. As far as the produce of this country is concerned, next to the farmers themselves, the people of the towns and cities have first claim upon it. It is their interest that should be catered for rather than all the time to be talking about the great and glowing British market. Exports! Nobody should decry exports when there is a surplus. By all means, in these circumstances, try and find a market. Nobody on this side of the House is attempting to blame the Minister if he fails to get a greater price than that which is being offered to him, or if he fails to extract a greater price so long as he is doing his best. But the Minister often gave us to understand in this House that all the Ministers here had to do was to go over — or that they should have gone over — and meet the British Ministers face to face. He has gone over on a few occasions in recent times. After all, with all his great eloquence, he does not seem to have been able to hypnotise the British Ministers one bit more than his predecessors did.

I read in an evening paper — the Herald— where the price of Australian eggs, according to the Australian radio, is going to be increased in Britain, over last year's price. The Minister has not come back to tell us that the price of eggs here is going to go above last year's price or the present price.

What is the producer getting in Australia?

The Minister, I am sure, has more time to delve into statistics of foreign countries than I have. In fact, it is his duty and his responsibility, while he occupies his present position, to scan and scrutinise figures of that kind. I hope that, in the course of his reply, he will tell us how much better we are faring here in this year with the price we are getting for our eggs and that we are to get for our eggs, than the Australian people now. He tells us about this 3/6 and he read us a lecture, when introducing his Estimate, in regard to poultry keeping. It all sounds grand here about availing of the services of the poultry instructresses, but it does not sound so grand to people down the country. They have not all the fancy arrangements or equipment in connection with poultry houses. I think the day has not arrived when the Minister would be in a position to produce an automatic hen, the hen that would, when you press a button, ease off for seven or eight months of the year and increase her production of eggs for the remaining five months.

He should be more matter of fact in things of this kind and the Minister should have less bombast about it. If he did he would probably get on better, and even his own supporters down the country would be far less critical of him than they are. The principles in relation to foreign wheat, maize and sugar are far from being in accord with the principles that we learned and are far away from the policy operated by Fianna Fáil during its 16 years of office. No one starved in this country during the very critical years of the war. Were it not for the fact that we had two adverse seasons in 1946 and 1947, I believe that there would be no need to ration flour after the war. But that has been done and it is being continued. I do not know whether that is in the Minister's bailiwick, but if it is there does not seem to be much reason for it now.

I am putting this up to the Labour Party. Do they stand for this policy? They cannot be blind to the fact that it will leave the people whom they represent, the working people, at the mercy of the foreign exporter. This is the question they have to ask themselves. Are they satisfied that the Coalition Government, of which they are members, are following a proper line of national security as a result of the agricultural policy that is being pursued by the Minister for Agriculture? Labour should wake up and they should ask themselves that question. I am sure their supporters in the towns and cities are already asking that question. Their vote on this occasion will show whether or not they are interested in the people in the towns and cities, whether or not they are interested in their future preservation.

I imagine that on this occasion, anyhow, they should at least redeem one of their pre-election promises. Of course, it is a nice thing to see the incentive that is being offered and the advice that is being given. We find the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and to the Minister for Industry and Commerce advising farmers to grow wheat in the month of June. It is a pity that advice was not offered earlier and it is a pity there was not something done which would induce the farmers to grow the wheat and the beet and the other crops. The only inducement that has been held out to them is to work harder, to produce more and show greater efficiency.

And 5/- a barrel.

That was announced in November, 1947.

Have sense.

It was announced over the radio and I listened to it.

The Minister knows quite well it was announced.

Deputy Smith was then Minister and he can tell us if it was.

The Minister contends, I suppose, that the farmers' costs have not increased and that the price that was good enough in 1948 is still good enough. I hold it is not and I believe he would be doing a very good service to this country if he guaranteed to the farmers for this year's crop and the coming year's crop £3 10s. 0d. per barrel. It would be better policy than going out to the Pacific coast for wheat supplies and it would be a much greater incentive. If he does not wish to do it in that way, let him do it in another way. If he does not give them the price directly, let him do it in another way. He talks a lot about the requirements of lime, phosphates and potash so far as the land is concerned. He was one of those Deputies who criticised the fertilizer voucher scheme of previous Ministers. That was no good at all, that was a blind. Why not give them what they used to get? The farmers should get back their vouchers.

Where does the Deputy quote that from?

I am not supposed to give the quotation in regard to everything.

It would be very helpful.

It would be, I am sure. I am speaking in a general way. I know that when Fine Gael and the other Parties were on this side, they did criticise it roundly. I know, and the Minister knows, that the fertiliser vouchers that went out to the farmers were very useful and they gave them a very great incentive to put all the manure they possibly could get on their lands. I suppose, because this was something initiated by Dr. Ryan when he was Minister for Agriculture, it is no good now and the Minister would not dream of bringing it back.

You can blame Deputy Smith for stopping that; it was Deputy Smith as Minister who stopped it. Perhaps I will be allowed to make this inquiry, as Deputy Smith and myself are sitting here. May I direct Deputy Beegan's attention to the fact that the actions and the virtues of Deputy Smith are not properly attributable to me?

Assuming the Minister is right, what is wrong in my suggesting the reintroduction of this scheme?

Not a ha'porth.

I hope, then, the Minister will give it every consideration. I understand our requirements of wheat would be in the neighbourhood of 640,000 tons. If the Minister would give a fertiliser voucher at the rate of 5/- on every barrel of wheat of a standard quality delivered at the mills, I can tell him that would be a great encouragement for the growing of wheat and other crops, too, crops that would provide a great amount of offals which would be useful for the feeding of live stock.

If he would go a bit further and give 5/- per ton of a fertiliser voucher on every ton of washed beet delivered at the factory, he would be doing something that would be more helpful to agriculture and to the tillage farmers than many of the things that he has been offering them.

Is not that, in fact, being done?

It is not. When the Minister is replying let him, if he can, give a statement to that effect and prove it. What I have suggested to the Minister would cost something in the neighbourhood of £1,500,000 in the year. The Minister may say that is a terrible amount of money, but after all, he boasts of the £40,000,000 for the land rehabilitation scheme. This would amount, over a period of five years, to £7,500,000, and I think that our tillage farmers are well entitled to that sum out of the £40,000,000 of Marshall Aid money. I think there is nothing wrong at all about that.

I come now to the land rehabilitation scheme. I am not going to say very much on it. In principle, I hold that it is a good scheme, but, as I said when the Bill was going through the Dáil, it is only catering for one-third of our farmers, or one-third of the land of the country. There is nothing being done for the other two-thirds. Why not do something for them on the lines that I have suggested? Perhaps the Minister has some better way of doing it. He has his experts in the Department to advise him. If he feels there is a better way of doing justice to the two-thirds of the farmers who are being deprived of any benefit out of the Marshall Aid money, let him come along with his scheme.

I have no objection whatever to the rehabilitation scheme. As I have said, it is a sound scheme in principle. If I had a farm of 30 acres and suppose 15 acres were really good land and the other 15 acres of mediocre quality, I could only avail of the Minister's rehabilitation scheme in regard to the latter 15 acres. I can get nothing in respect of the 15 acres of good land. The type of economy that I was taught, as far as farming and agriculture are concerned, by pretty thrifty farmers was: "always till your good land, make use of it by getting the best possible crops, nourish it with plenty of manure so that you will be able to make a certain profit out of it whereby you can gradually reclaim and improve your mediocre land."

That is not what is being done under this £40,000,000 scheme, because, as I have said, farmers with the good land are getting nothing. I hold that they should be taken into consideration and should be given their due proportion out of this money to enable them to bring it up to its maximum fertility.

The Minister had a parish plan. He wrote to the various county committees of agriculture in connection with it. Last year he availed of the privileges of this House to insult the members of the Galway County Committee of Agriculture. He also told what was a gross untruth. He took up a paper and gave quotations from it. When I put down a question, he held that, when he sent down his reply, it was not even acknowledged. The minutes are there, the copy of the reply is there, and the copy of the reply that came from his own private secretary acknowledging the reply that was sent is there. I am sure they are all on the files in his Department. He tried to make it appear, of course, that they were all Fianna Fáil supporters on the Galway committee who treated him with this contempt, whereas, one of the members who used the expression "let him go to so and so, we will mind our own business", is chairman of a branch of one of the Parties that is supporting the Government.

Now, when any gentleman can go out of his way to use a matter of that kind in order to try and besmirch, as he thinks, his political opponent, it is not very easy to give all the co-operation that we hear so much about, or that we are being asked to give. If the Minister would approach this in a proper way he is going to get co-operation. I am not going to repeat what I said at the outset, but I want to assure him that, as far as any help we can give to the farming community or to any other section of the people is concerned, if a proper approach is made by the Minister, then he is going to get every assistance and every co-operation.

Now, we are told about advantages that would accrue from the parish scheme. I am quite well aware that extra instructors in any county are a decided advantage. I have always held that. I incurred a certain amount of unpopularity on a few occasions at meetings of the county committee of agriculture by opposing subsidies for shows and asking that the money proposed to be expended in that way should be used instead for the appointment of extra agricultural instructors.

Hear, hear.

It was an unpopular thing to do, but I stood for it, and I stand by it still.

You were perfectly right.

I will send for an agricultural instructor and ask him to test my soil. He will tell me what is deficient in it. In nine cases out of ten he will say to me, "well, there is not much use in putting on phosphates or manures of that kind unless you put lime on your land, and unless you use either burned lime or ground limestone." When I ask him where I am to get it, he will tell me it is in such and such a place. In County Galway, we cannot get ground limestone any nearer than in some part of Sligo, or perhaps in Lanesboro, and if we were to take that——

What about Tuam?

——to East Galway, it would be very costly. The Minister has gone all out on ground limestone. Ground limestone is 60 or 70 miles away from us and the freight would render it a very uneconomic proposition.

What about Tuam lime?

The Minister talks about lime as if he were interested in it. Why did he reduce the lime subsidy this year? What was the reason for reducing the subsidy we were getting in County Galway and every other county, a subsidy which had the effect of giving every farmer a certain complement of lime from the kilns?

Deputy Killilea can get you any quantity of lime you want.

Instead of maintaining that subsidy at the rate at which it was, the Minister reduced it. How can he justify that in view of all he has said about using lime?

You can get all the lime you want in Tuam.

We know all about the lime. Perhaps the Minister is not long enough in the job to know all about it yet. He quibbles about Tuam. Lime out of Tuam factory would be a very, very costly proposition for me and the people in East Galway and South Galway.

I think the Deputy is mistaken.

I am not mistaken. It would cost about £2 per ton without being distributed at all. That is pretty costly.

I see Deputy Killilea looking at you.

That is because of the 50 per cent. moisture.

£2 per ton ex-factory.

The Minister has not said anything about ground limestone plants in South Galway. He has them in North Cork, Monaghan, Clare, Sligo and Leitrim. What is he doing about County Galway? There is a very strong young farmers' organisation there. I believe they have put it up to his Department on a few occasions and I hope that he is considering the matter sympathetically. As far as Ballinasloe is concerned, we have very fine types of limestone there. It must be very excellent indeed when a man like Messrs. Sisk of Cork would purchase the quarry, utilise the stone, dress it and send it all over the country. Of course, it is a very different matter for a man like Messrs. Sisk and Son to go into the ground limestone business. For the ordinary man it is another story. I understand the plant is pretty costly. Possibly a man like Messrs. Sisk would go into it but the ordinary man could not unless he is assured of assistance. Of course, I have only got this on hearsay. I have never met Mr. Sisk.

You will have a meat meal factory in Ballinasloe soon, and please God, that will give all the employment you need.

I am very pleased to hear that. Meat meal is one thing. Ground limestone is another. I am not making a case for Ballinasloe any more than any other area in Galway. Galway is a pretty big county. There is plenty of limestone in it and I hope some assistance will be given by way of loan or grant to enable an individual, or a group of individuals, to set a ground limestone industry going. It is no use telling people to go to the Agricultural Credit Corporation. That is all right in its own way but the interest and the principal repayments are pretty high. I know the people in Portumna had something in mind in that respect but, when they learned what the charges would be, they were very hesitant to proceed.

With regard to manure, the Minister at one time vehemently criticised his predecessors because of the way in which they allowed that business to be carried on. He went so far as to say that if he were in charge then the manure ring would be smashed. I have not seen very much signs so far of its being smashed. Manure has not come down very much in price. I think some types have increased in price.

Some have come down.

Some have come down and others have increased.

There is 40 per cent. devaluation.

There has not been the big reduction we were led to believe there would be. I do not know what the Minister can do about it. Deputy McQuillan mentioned a sulphate of ammonia plant. Other Deputies mentioned it as well when the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce was going through. Possibly the Minister for Agriculture has nothing to do with it but, at the same time, a word to his colleague might not do any harm.

God forbid it will ever materialise.

That may be the Minister's opinion, but it is not my opinion.

I think it was my predecessor's opinion and his predecessor's too.

It is not the opinion of the general bulk of the people. The price of manure is almost prohibitive. Farmers cannot use it on a large scale because of the high cost. Another factor which prevents the farmer utilising manure plentifully is the difficulty of its distribution. I think the Minister should do something to provide manure distributors, either by importing them or by having them manufactured here.

I shall be happy to have any proposal the Deputy cares to make.

Manure distributors should be available in the same manner as the horse sprayers. I think that would be a good idea.

Where the county committee is not doing that, I will be pleased to sanction it within 24 hours.

I think it should be done without the county committee having to put it up at all.

I put it up to the Galway County Committee of Agriculture.

It is only natural that I should be more interested in Galway than anywhere else, but I think this should be a national scheme. As far as Galway is concerned, we would like to have it but we do not want any favoured treatment over and above that meted out to other counties. I have heard the Minister talk about cow-testing and the advantages of cow-testing.

I am happy to tell the Deputy that the provision of manure distributors on loan is already provided for and there is a scheme.

It is operating in my county.

I am glad to hear that. The Minister has advised farmers to do cow-testing. I think that is a good idea in the milk producing areas but I cannot see what useful purpose it would serve in an area like mine where the people go in largely for the production of the store calf.

You know that from Gort to the Clare border they have gone into dairying now.

I shall be delighted if it succeeds. I wish the people every success and I hope it will prove useful and expand to its fullest extent. I want to talk about this bogey of cow-testing now. In a sheep producing and store cattle producing county, cow-testing is useless. It is a waste of time and money. We in County Galway were demanding the right to pay premiums on Hereford and Poll Angus bulls. That is not an innovation since the Minister came into office, for that agitation has been there all the time. We cannot go beyond a certain breed, but the fact is that the people in my part of the country are all out for the Hereford. People with Shorthorns and Friesians find them suitable for their purposes and they go all out for them. I think therefore that it is unfair that we should not have freedom in this matter of giving premiums and a free choice as to the type of bull to which we would give the premiums — bulls suitable to the particular area.

Is the black bull not suitable?

I presume it would be suitable in certain parts but I know that in the south and east of Galway areas and parts of north Galway also the people are all out for the Hereford bull. When the premium is not given in their case as well as in the case of Shorthorns there is a tendency that the bull owner will not go in for the best type of bull at the Dublin show or elsewhere.

The only other matter on which I wish to say anything is that I am very disappointed with the Minister's policy. When a person can go out and make misleading statements, particularly a person who knows the true position, it is not good for anybody or for the country. That is what the Minister has done in many matters concerning agriculture. I am also disappointed and dissatisfied with the Minister's general policy which, I hold, is a complete reversal of the policy of self-sufficiency adopted by Sinn Féin and a complete reversal of the policy which helped to tide the country over the difficult years between 1940 and 1945. I would appeal in all seriousness to the Minister to return to that policy of self-sufficiency which has served the country so well. He should bury his pride and adopt that policy in the interests of the country.

One would believe, from the speeches made so far in the course of this debate, that the people of this country were complete strangers to each other. Is it not a fact that we are all neighbours of each other and that any policy which pleases one should suit all of us? This debate should have been on a higher level, but the ex-Minister for Agriculture is responsible for the mean, low tone to which it has decended. He devoted most of his time to heaping ridicule and venom on his successor in office, finding nothing good in anything he has done or said. The faked and false pessimism of Deputies Smith, Cogan and Corry was sickening for any man to have to listen to. Their speeches were filled with nothing more than abuse and ranting without regard to what was the true position. The fact is that the country is in very good trim. Our farmers are doing well and they have something to sell for which there is a demand and for which they get a good return. There is, in fact, very little wrong with the whole situation. The fact of the matter is that there is plenty of work for all the people. Every man and woman able and willing to work can do so in this country and they will get in return reasonable wages. There is the scheme for drainage going ahead successfully throughout the whole country and every man who is idle can be suitably employed on this great scheme if he has the will to work. Is not that sound national policy? I say that it is and that that work has brought us to the position where things are now being done for the country for which we have waited 30 years in the hope that somebody would start them off.

We have, on the other hand, fixed markets and freedom of operation for the farmers. What more could the farmers want than fair prices, fixed markets and freedom to carry out their own destiny in their own way? Is not that freedom a big factor with the farmers who for the last eight or ten years had compulsion piled on them in every aspect of their work? Thank God the farmers have left those days of compulsion far behind them and we hope never to see their return. We have heard all the whining and groaning about wheat, the international situation and purchases from abroad. Why have we no wheat at home? I ask the Deputies on the Opposition Benches why the farmers are not growing wheat. We have to-day the best prices that were ever paid for wheat in this country. We have also the best types of seed wheat available and which the country could get; we have plenty of manures and fertilisers and there is no reason in the wide world why the farmers of the country cannot grow plenty of wheat and make a very good profit on it. The Deputies opposite apparently want the Minister to force the farmers to grow wheat but that is not necessary since the inducement is already there if the farmers wish to avail of it and provided always that their land is suitable. This is a free country and surely the farmers are as much entitled to their freedom as anyone else. They are to-day free to grow wheat if they so desire and if their land is suitable and they can make good profit out of it. I have grown plenty of wheat myself and I have found that it paid. I would rather have wheat on my lands any time than have them stocked with white-headed bullocks.

The Minister would not agree with you on that.

If you give the farmers freedom to work their own lands as best suits them without regulations and inspections and give them the necessary seeds and fertilisers then we in this country will have all the wheat we need. Compulsion has been tried and has failed not alone in this country but in Germany, Russia, Italy and several other countries. The farmer is a practical individual and should have full freedom to use his own methods in his own way. He has that freedom to-day and he is quite happy with the position and is making a good job of it.

There is one thing which made me very happy in the course of this debate and that was the vile, malicious, and mean attacks which have been levelled against the Minister for Agriculture throughout the discussion. If he was doing a very bad job and if things were rotten in the country and daily going from bad to worse under his guidance the members of the Opposition would have been praising him for all their worth with a view to getting him to run into a muddle up to his neck and then be thrown out of power. Instead, because he is doing a good job of work for the country, they are attacking him at every stage. All I can say is more power to the Minister and more strength to continue on his line of policy which is putting the country on the right road and winning the day for the people of Ireland. We heard a lot of talk about policies and the work of the Government. The good farmer knows his job and if left to it he can get on with it. He knows what crops suit his land and grows them accordingly, treating the land in such a way that in a matter of only a few months he can change over to whatever crop or system of farming suits the needs of the occasion. That is the essence of good husbandry and it is because there are thousands of men of this type in the country that there are so many homesteads standing for hundreds of years which have passed from father to son and are managed and controlled by men who were bred in the soil. That is what one calls sound economy. It is because that is a situation to-day that I am satisfied that there is no need for compulsion and that a price inducement is sufficient to get the farmers to produce the things the country needs at the right time. All the Minister should have to do in the promotion of agriculture is to try and find good markets for the farmers' produce where he can and put them before the farmer, leaving him to run his land and to adapt it to the needs of the markets available. That is what our Minister has done and I, for one, can see nothing wrong with that. I am satisfied that he is a man of dynamic personality, strength of character, and great ability and that he is doing a good job of work efficiently and with the interests of the farmer and the country foremost in his mind. With a man of that type holding the destinies of the Irish farmer the future is assured. He is the type of man for whom the farmers of the country have been waiting to lead them for many years.

We have seen over the last two years an upward trend in everything — cattle, sheep, poultry, eggs, butter and other products. Everything in the farmer's line is on the upward grade and the farmers know that right well. All they have got to do is to consult the monthly figures for confirmation of that. I would ask the ex-Minister for Agriculture to be man enough and to be big enough to forget he was Minister at one time, to be big enough to admit that he made plenty of mistakes and that the line he was taking was a false line — the line of using compulsion against the farmers and trying to shove down their necks that his policy was right. The change in policy has brought new life to the farmers. Listening to the ex-Minister, one would think he had spent all his life behind the plough and attending to his farm. I do not know why that class of nonsense should be tried on here. I do not live very far from the ex-Minister and I want to tell him that he did not care two hoots about the sow or the plough, that he spent most of his time at fairs, "tangling" a few cattle. Deputy Smith was, what we call in the country, a jobber. No one could blame him if he found that was more profitable than working on the farm but I want him to cut out all this nonsense about his being a practical farmer. We know well that he was trying to make money in the quickest and handiest way he could and he found that was the handiest way.

He was not living on the salary of his wife as a teacher.

We are all satisfied that agriculture is our life line and that we must try to formulate the best long term policy for it. If we can keep agriculture on a stable line, I am satisfied that we can carry this country through any emergency and our farmers will be able to supply the nation's need in times of crisis. There need never be compulsion in agricultural matters in this country unless in times of crisis. Then, of course, it would be quite in order. If the nation thinks that compulsion is needed in times of crisis, then the Government can bring it in and the farmers will accept it as men. What we do not want in this country is sudden changes in agricultural policy.

There should be a fixed policy for agriculture which would suit Fianna Fáil as well as every other Party in the country. If there is a fixed policy, the farmers can operate that for themselves if they are left alone. They will do on their land what they think best for themselves and their families. What is best for the farmer on his land is, in the long run, best for the country and he should be left alone to pursue his own ideas. I believe the Minister is on right lines in putting all the expert advice he can at the disposal of the farmers and then leaving them alone.

I am satisfied that all this whining to the effect that the farmers are down and out is mean, low and un-Irish. Our farmers are not down and out. They were never down and out, even in the midst of the economic war. It is true that they were up to their necks in trouble but they stuck it out and, when times improved, they rehabilitated themselves. They are now in the happy position that they have emerged from the many wrongs inflicted on them in these years. The farmer who has a fairly good holding can always stick it out—I mean the real farmer. I do not mean the "fly-by-night" who wants to come in on the good things and who, when the tide turns, gets out and leaves some other poor devil to bear the burden. I am talking of balanced farmers. I agree that the methods of husbandry practised by some small far mers require to be put on a proper basis. These farmers are too small and uneconomic to have a balanced type of agriculture. I would ask the Minister to do everything possible to put into operation a co-operative system whereby five or six small farmers, who have very little hope of being anything but uneconomic if left to their own devices, could get together under the auspices of Muintir na Tíre or some other organisation of that kind, and obtain up-to-date machinery under the hire purchase system or under loans obtained on long term conditions. I think in that way we could almost double production on these farms. If we could double production—I admit it would be hard to attain it—we could solve almost all the ills confronting this country. We would be able to carry on our backs the old, the aged, the infirm, the blind and the destitute. The trouble at present is that we have not got the production of which our land is capable.

I was very glad to hear the Minister state that he proposes to start a scheme of national granaries which will be available for the storage of supplies for times of emergency. These granaries should have been erected 20 or 25 years ago because the nation that does not provide such granaries for lean times is not making proper provision for emergencies. I hope that the Minister will see that there is sufficient of these granaries to provide storage space for a reserve of grain for this country for at least 12 or 18 months. If we have such a reserve we shall be in a position to stand up almost to any emergency.

There is one other matter which I wish to mention but I am not sure whether it comes under the Vote for Agriculture. That is, the National Stud. Perhaps the Chair would be able to guide me on that matter.

The Deputy should proceed, for the present at any rate.

In my county there is a number of progressive horse breeders who have been for generations engaged in this business and who have done splendid work in giving employment and in producing some fine types of racehorses and other types of horses. There is grave uneasiness amongst these people at the action of the Government in entering into competition with them. There is a horse at that stud at the moment called Royal Charger, which cost £52,000, and these people hold that that horse should be held for cheap service for the people of this country. Instead of that, he is allowed to go into open competition with the horses of these breeders and they are being squeezed out. That is using the taxpayers' money to beat down the small horse breeders and it is most unfair.

On top of that, I think it is a shame that we, the Irish people, who have produced some of the best horses and also some of the best horsemen in the world have had to take a foreigner into our National Stud. Now that we have the management of our own affairs, I think that the men in charge of the National Stud should be Irishmen, that it should be worked in the interests of Ireland and that we should not use the taxpayers' money to oust the small horse breeders in this country. I hope that the Minister will take note of that. It is a matter that is a burning question in the Midlands, especially in my county, where there has been a splendid tradition of horse breeding and where there is a fine type of horse breeder who has laid the foundation of racing and hunting in this country. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Top
Share