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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Jun 1950

Vol. 121 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27 — Agriculture (Resumed)

Before the Adjournment last night I was speaking in connection with the National Stud at Tully. It was unfortunate that the Minister was not here because I should have liked him to have heard what I had to say. In the Midlands and particularly in my county a large number of people are engaged in the bloodstock industry and their people before them were engaged in it for generations. These people are doing very useful work which is a national asset. They are very much concerned about the position which exists at the National Stud in connection with a famous horse which was bought for £225,000. These people hold that the fee which must be paid for the services of that horse is far beyond what they are able to pay. It is being used at present by select people in this country who have rolls and rolls of money and who do not have to worry about price — people such as the Aga Khan, the Aly Khan, Dorothy Paget, and so forth.

These, people can afford to pay for the services of this horse while the ordinary people of Ireland who cannot afford to pay the fee have to do with second-rate horses. They are satisfied that this horse was paid for by the taxpayers' money and that, being so paid for, it should be at the service of the people of this country and especially of those who have been engaged in the industry for a long number of years. The Minister should review the position because I am satisfied that it needs to be looked into Is it fair to have that horse the monopoly of a few wealthy magnates in this country or is it the Minister's intention to allow the smaller live-stock breeders of this country to avail of the services of this sire? The smaller live-stock breeders are not satisfied also that we should slavishly have a foreigner in charge of that stud. There is no reason why an Irishman should not be in charge of it. After all, there were Irishmen in charge of that industry for centuries. It is no wonder that the people are keenly concerned about the position. Our small blood-stock industry in the country should not be squeezed out. I would point out that the foreigners would leave the country in the morning if it suited them to do so. The Minister should see to it that the fee for the services of this sire is reasonable. At present the ordinary people are completely excluded and they feel very sore about the position.

I assure the Deputy that he is misinformed.

I am glad if that is the case because the people to whom I refer are very much concerned at the moment. We have heard a great deal of talk to the effect that the price of this, that and the other has gone up while in no case has the price of anything been reduced. I would point out that world conditions govern prices. We are only an atom in a big world and our prices are governed by the conditions existing in other countries. For years we despised the British market and we went round the world seeking alternative markets. After having completed the circle the exTaoiseach had to stand up in this House and eat his words and say: "I have tried and failed and I have to stay where I started — the British market. We ought to be glad to have it. It is our nearest and best market." It is still so. Even if England is in decay and breaking up, it is our best market. There is no reason why we should not make use of it to the benefit of our farmers and to the benefit of the country as a whole. Unless we and our farmers are up and doing we shall not be able to cut across the Danes, the Argentinians or any of our other competitors.

We want to revive in this country a proper spirit of more work and self-reliance and we want a better educated type of people. We cannot drag behind and then begin whining and asking why we cannot beat the Danes and the other people. We can do it; we should do it and we must do it if we are going to make this country worth living in. It can be done. Therefore our farmers should modernise their farms to a greater extent. I know that it is easy to say that but not so easy to put it into effect because it takes a fair amount of money. However, from what I have seen and done myself I know that if only eight or ten farmers would get together and sink the petty jealousies between them and buy modern equipment and use modern methods of husbandry, enormous work could be done. We did it in our parish a few years ago and we now have a proper balance there. The crops are sown early and saved properly and not alone is the machinery adequate for our own farmers but we are able to lend it all round. For a place which was backward and dull as regards husbandry, we have done enormously well. If those co-operative methods were extended throughout the country and if there were a better spirit we could almost double the production of this country.

The land reclamation scheme is one of the greatest schemes in our generation. We are very glad that we have lived to see the day when our countryside will be drained, north, south, east and west — our bogs drained and our poor lands refertilised. The farmers have now every chance and they no longer have any excuse because the nation is putting the money at their disposal and giving them everything which is necessary to enable them to double their production. At present there is a vast amount of waste in every county and on every farmer's land. From what I know of my county, I would almost be inclined to say that one-third of every farmer's land is lying idle in the form of dykes, ditches or land covered with sedge grass, rushes and water. If the problem is tackled in a proper spirit within the next five or ten years every farmer, big and small, in this country will have a vast amount of land available for proper and good husbandry. That is good national work and it is the work which the Minister has undertaken. We say God speed him in that work. I ask the farmers to hearken to the call, to see what has to be done on their farms and to send a postcard to the Department of Agriculture asking for particulars in connection with the scheme. They will receive a reply by return of post. If they do that I am satisfied that there is a new era ahead for this country and that there, will be very little of the flight from the land as there has been in the past.

A great deal must be done to bring about a proper balance and happiness in our country areas. Our farmers must have a fair amount of proper education. The best way to do that would be to see about the provision of parish halls, which would be properly run and conducted, where lectures and advice in connection with land reclamation, the poultry industry and so forth would be given. I am satisfied that at present, in that connection, there is a waste of public money. There are about six well-trained horticulturists and agricultural experts in our counties, but they cannot touch even the fringe. For one man who gets service, there are thousands who never see an instructor. Last year, the Minister initiated a scheme whereby three or four parishes would be combined under one instructor. That was a sound idea and we would be making better headway with it but for the narrow spirit of the Opposition, who did everything they could to damn it. In doing that, they did a disservice to our farmers. Our farmers need to make use of the many useful schemes that are in operation. In many cases they know nothing about them. The Minister should try to get a better outlook on the part of our agricultural committees. There is no use in having a few well-paid instructors here and there, doing a little for a few farmers while neglecting the many. We want to get work done in every home and to create the new outlook that is so badly needed. We do not want our farmers to be a drudge in the community. We do not want our farmers merely existing. We want to make them happy, contented, independent, industrious, educated. That can be done by organising them.

I would suggest to the Minister that he should have all the leaflets in connection with agriculture that are issued by the Department bound in one volume and posted annually to every farmer. It may cost a good deal but it would be of enormous benefit. Only a fraction of our people get these leaflets. It would be money well spent if a nicely bound volume of all the leaflets were issued to every farmer. It would hang in the corner, with Old Moore's Almanac, and would be taken down in the long winter nights, to be read and re-read. The father would pass on to the son many of the things he knows. These are the things that count in the revival of agriculture. The majority of farmers are carrying on where their ancestors left off, in the old higgledy-piggledy way. It is only when they see a neighbour, who has adopted modern methods, going ahead in leaps and bounds, that they realise that they are in a rut and should get out of it.

Agriculture has to bear many burdens. The industrial development over the last 25 years was a huge burden and blister on the farmers. We know that industrial development is needed and that we require a properly balanced industrial arm. That cannot be brought about overnight. It would take a century to do it. There is no use in trying to impose too great a burden on the farmers. They have to carry the baby, to nourish and nurse, through taxation, the revival of industry. Give them time. Any industrial development should be sound and well based. The industrial revival should be based on agriculture as far as possible. There should be a factory in the immediate vicinity of agricultural areas to absorb the offals of agriculture. I would suggest tanneries, glue factories, meat factories. That is the type of industry we require. I do not want to see in this country the industrial development that took place in Britain, Germany and other countries, which involved tens of thousands of people being herded together. Before very long, their philosophy of life was completely changed and they forgot that they were a Christian people. It was through that kind of industrial madness in the world that Christianity was lost. I want to see a properly balanced industry revived, based more or less on agriculture.

We have heard a great deal about tomatoes and about the disgraceful way that the Minister treated the tomato growers. I look at the other side of the picture and see the disgraceful way the tomato growers treated the public. At present nobody can buy an Irish tomato but those who have money to burn. Can the ordinary small farmer or rural worker who needs fresh tomatoes pay 4/- or 3/6 a lb. for them? He cannot. The tomato growers were fleecing us. Deputy P.J. Burke came into the House whining to the Minister. Let the tomato growers be fair to the public and the public will be fair to them. If they charge 4/- a lb. it means they are fleecing the public.

They were sold for 4d. a lb. last July and August.

There is too much fleecing of the public. I would like to see the tomato industry flourishing but I would like to see honesty in the industry. When they got a monopoly, we know what they did. When foreign tomatoes were imported, which were not nearly as good, I admit, as the Irish tomatoes, the Irish growers dropped down to meet the competition but, when they had a monopoly of the market, they fleeced us. If you asked them how they were getting on, they would say: "We are doing very well. We had a good year." So they could.

The same thing applies to bacon prices. There is fleecing of the public in that regard also. I would tell the Irish farmer and the Irish worker to do as their ancestors did — rear your own pig, cure your own pig and eat your own pig and leave these warriors where they are. In my young days every small cottier and every farmer, big and small, killed two, three or four pigs and hung them in the corner and cured them well. When a visitor arrived, the farmer's wife cut a few slices of that ham, with a few eggs, and there was a good meal prepared in five minutes. Let our Irish farmers and workers do that and let the bacon magnates and other fleecers go without for a while. There is no other way of dealing with that type of people. They are money fiends who want big profits. There is no spirit or soul in them. They are brutes. They want to fleece the poor producers, who are the very soul of Ireland. They have to do without while the big magnates get all the swag.

The farmers are a decent, honest type of people. They are too quite. Anyone from a town or a city can always slip it across them. There is one thing about a farmer, he is most honest. He gives fair play if he gets fair play but it is seldom that he gets fair play. The farmer is the best type of man in the whole world. He is the only man in the whole world who is fully free. No one is as free as a farmer. A farmer with 30 to 60 acres has not his equal in any part of the world. He can do what he likes with his own land so long as he works within the law and pays his way. He can get up in the morning or lie in bed. He can go to the races or stay at home. He can do what he likes. That is why I would like to create a proud spirit amongst our farmers so that they would realise their destiny and who and what they are.

If we could get that spirit into our farmers, if we could get them to realise that they are the free men in this country, it would be an enormous advantage. They are God's gifted people. They live with nature and they live against nature. They are working with and fighting against the elements. They work with the sunshine and they work against the sunshine. Their life is a glorious, an educating life. The farmers who takes a full interest in the working of his farm is a beautiful being. The Minister has the loyalty of every good farmer, whether he is for Fianna Fáil or for Fine Gael — I am quite certain of that.

I speak now of the real farmers. I do not speak of the men who look all the time for doles and sops and subsidies, the people who want to live on somebody else. I speak for the balanced farmer, the man who wants to live his life in his own way. That type of man is behind the Minister and the Government and he would be behind Fianna Fáil, too, if only they would give him a fair crack of the whip. A fair crack of the whip is all he wants. There is no use in trying to slip across him new policies which go against his very nature. Fianna Fáil slipped the economic war against him and that brought him to his knees. We had too much of the doles and the subsidies and too much of the free beef scheme. That type of thing works against the very nature of the farmer Even our labouring men despised you for doing it, although some of them had to get it from you.

We want to bring back all through this country the spirit of independence. In the course of our national struggle, when many of us were out on the hills doing work for Ireland, to whom did we look for assistance? We looked to the small farmers, to the middle-class farmers and to many of the big farmers. They were our prop, our pillar, our defence and the source of our food supply. I want those people to get into a proud place, a place they are worthy to occupy, a premier place. There is no one who should be placed in a higher position. We want a balanced economy for those people. We do not want any chopping or changing.

We want a national policy in relation to agriculture, so that a change of Government will make no difference. If we can achieve that, our farmers will carry the nation on their shoulders. The chops and the changes and the insults that were heaped upon them since we got a native Government were too much for anyone to bear. The farmers are now settling down to good work and they realise that their day has come. It is unknown what a farmer can do if he can look five years ahead. He does not want big prices, but he does want reasonable prices. Some farmers think that many of our prices are too high and some would rather that our cattle prices were not so high and that the price of our calves was not too high. Farmers would like to get commodities from other countries at a lower price. The farmer is no fool and he wants proper value.

We have in this House three doleful gentlemen, the ex-Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Smith, Deputy Corry and Deputy Cogan. What do they represent at all? They are whining and crying from morning till night about the woeful way in which, our farmers have to exist. There is nothing wrong with our farmers. They are doing very well to-day. There are very few of them grumbling. Perhaps there are not many of them very wealthy, but at least they are as wealthy as their neighbours. If they are let alone they are well able to look after themselves. I suggest to Deputy Smith that he should give up talking so much nonsense. He comes from County Cavan, the next county to my own. The people in Cavan are a hard-working, thrifty, industrious people.

The Deputy has talked a lot about the bullock and about the lands of Meath. There is not a man in County Cavan who is not breaking his neck to get a farm in County Meath. The Land Commission offices are blocked out with letters: "For God's sake let me have a holding at Skrine or Tara, where the good grass grows." There are hundreds of them flocking in whenever they get the chance. I bet that if Deputy Smith could get a balanced farm in Meath, he would leave Cavan. I was born in Meath, I am rooted there and I will stay there.

We have heard a lot of talk about the despised bullock. I will ask any Deputies who talk like that to come with me through Kildare, Meath and Dublin, to look at the despised bullocks there and then to throw their minds back over the years. What was it carried the country all along? What was the mainstay of our export trade? What brought most of us our living? It was the despised bullock. Do not think of County Meath as a royal ranch. We have our sow and we have our cow and we have a balanced economy there. There may be a few magnates who live by the grass and by the big bullock but the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Lands are dealing with that position. If there are absentee landlords in my county, men who will not do their job by the nation, the Minister for Lands has it in his power to deal with them and he is working very hard in that direction. I believe that within the next ten years there will not be an acre of land in Meath not giving a full return.

There is nothing that will carry this country along better than the bullock. What is tillage for? What do we grow oats and turnips and mangolds for? Is it not to feed our bullocks? Who are carrying the West of Ireland on their shoulders? Are not the men from Meath and Dublin and Kildare doing it? They go down to the west by bus, train and car from Limerick to Galway, from Athenry to Ballinasloe, they pay big prices and they bring back animals to Meath to finish them. God bless the people of Meath who are able to carry the load from the West of Ireland. Cut out all this talk about the despised bullock. He is the greatest blessing we ever had.

When we had stall-feeding in the good old days we had a proper balance on the farm. I want to see the stall-feeding industry revived. When I was a young fellow I used to meet four or five of my neighbours every Wednesday morning. We would meet at the crossroads with six or eight or ten stall-feds each and we would go down towards Enfield to the railway station and wait there until the animals were loaded. That went on through the years. We had plenty of work to do at home, cleaning out the sheds, washing out the byres, leaving in supplies of hay and looking after the cattle and there was full and plenty for everyone. I want to see that type of industry revived because stall-feeding was the backbone of the agricultural industry.

There are a few lines I would like to quote for Deputy Smith and I would ask him to ponder well on them. They are:

"Words are like leaves and where they most abound,

Good fruit of sense beneath is seldom found."

I wish I had the flow of speech of Deputy Giles. It is always interesting to listen to him. His eulogy of the farmers impressed me so much I am sorry I am not a farmer. I think we ought to build a cenotaph and have a day of commemoration for the unknown farmer of Ireland of whom Deputy Giles has spoken.

The Minister is to be congratulated on this bulky tome that he has distributed for the information of Deputies. I am no expert in agriculture and I am afraid my opinion on most of the 25 items in the memorandum would be valueless in comparison with the opinions of many other Deputies. For the information of Deputies like me who are not so well versed in agriculture and have not, by experience, got the information or education that other Deputies have got, I think the Minister should, when replying to the debate, develop the points that come under the various headings in the memorandum. As far as I am concerned, the memorandum is more significant for what it excludes than for what it contains. Representing as I do a dairying constituency, I am interested in the production of grass; in grass as a crop, and I am wholly in agreement with the Minister that grass is one of the most valuable and profitable crops we can produce. I have said before, in relation to grass, that the Minister should be preserved from his friends, because it seems to me that those who have preached a grass policy are always preaching also about the tremendous value of permanent pasture. I am no believer in the value of permanent pasture. I have some experience of examining pasture, and, having got instruction in its value or lack of value, I do think that if we are to have a valuable grass crop it must get as much cultural care as any other crop of value which we produce.

Because of the Minister's fulminations against tillage, I expected to find in the memorandum, or in the statement he made, an explanation of his grass policy. I expected that we would have some information of his Department's activities in regard to the production, the purchase and the distribution of grass seeds, but there is not any such information. I think, in regard to this matter, that the Minister should accept full responsibility for giving us all the information we need in regard to it and to the Department's activities and achievements. I would urge the Minister to lay aside for one hour the cap and bells and to deal in all seriousness and with some sense of responsibility with this matter. In Volume 119, No. 2, column 258, on the 16th February, 1950, the Minister said:—

"We grew a variety of grass in this country which was entitled, I think, to the description of a botanical monstrosity. It was a variety of grass of which a cow could eat in abundance and die of starvation as she chewed the cud. Scientists came from afar to see this extraordinary product. It is getting quite rare in the country now."

I do agree, again, with the Minister that we had grass in this country that was without nutritive value. I believe it was a type of grass that resulted from the view promulgated by many of the protagonists of grass of the value of permanent pasture, but I cannot accept the Minister's view that that type of grass is becoming quite rare now. I still see little indication of a policy that will replace this valueless vegetation with the type of nutritive grass that we need. It is, of course, true that, due to the fact that we can get more fertilisers nowadays, we have more and better grasses, but that improvement is only a drop in the ocean compared to what might be done by a really effective grass policy. There is only one way in which we can get rid of the botanical monstrosities which cover practically all our pasture land, and that is by ploughing this land out and sowing it with certified and tested seeds, in the right proportion.

I quote again from the Minister — Volume 116, No. 2, column 169, for the 8th June, 1949:—

"Largely as a result of the obscurantist brayings of political agriculturists for some time in this country, people have failed to appreciate fully that grass is a crop and not just a terrestrial accident."

Exactly, and the obscurantists are the Party with which the Minister is now associated — the mad mullahs of permanent pasturage. I quote again:—

"I am not going to dwell on the benefits conferred upon us by the wise decisions of the recent past, but the hayseed that was sold in this country during the last quinquennium would make a cat laugh and we have got to try and repair that."

Does the Minister for Agriculture suggest that the Department of Agriculture, before he came in, was so ignorant, so inept, so unintelligent, and so lacking in a sense of public duty that there were no controls in regard to the grass seeds that were distributed and sown in Ireland?

I do. Not only do I suggest it: I assert it.

There were no controls?

They had been operating under controls but dirt was being sent out.

Was there no testing service of any kind available to the farmers?

The result was sensational.

Does the Minister suggest that the Irish farmer was so uninformed and that Irish seedsmen were so unscrupulous that nothing was sown in the land of Ireland but valueless rubbish? That has not been my experience.

Under the Deputy's tariff policy.

Roughly, we imported, annually I think, in one way or another about 30,000 cwts. of grass seeds of various kinds. The Minister last year, I think, imported about 100,000 cwts. according to this.

We are exporting grass seeds now.

I will come to that. Did the grass seeds which the Minister imported last year come from the same source as the grass seeds that came in before, or did the Department of Agriculture make new contracts?

Does the Deputy want me to reply now or would he prefer that I should do so later?

I would prefer if the Minister would give us detailed information when replying. I am interested in this. My observation of new meadows throughout the country and during my lifetime does not lead me to believe that the grass seeds we used to import, wherever we got them, were valueless. I saw exceptionally beautiful meadows in my own constituency long before the Minister came into the Dáil. Now in view of the Minister's few words there, does he suggest to us or is he telling us that he has set up an entirely new section for the testing and certification of grass seeds in the Department?

No. He took the duty and the quota off grass seeds.

The section was there already. Has there been any number of new men employed? When were these recruited into the Government service? Has the section expanded? Will the Minister inform us if he set up a completely new section for the production of suitable strains of grass seeds?

Has the Minister recruited a group of scientists newly into the Department? What are their qualifications for this work? Were they already in existence? I would like information about that. It would be interesting to have it.

You have a good deal of it in Johnstown.

Oh, Johnstown. I would be loath to speak to the Minister or quote about him from any tainted source, but the Irish Times cannot be regarded as a “Doll Teare-sheet”, whatever about the Irish Press.

Cannot be regarded as what?

A "Doll Tearesheet". The Minister used a euphemism the other day about the Irish Press. I use one about the Irish Times. It is, after all, a chaste, virginal and pure paper.

When all is said, it placed the kiss of death on Irish politics.

On last Saturday the Irish Times published a leader of laudation of the Minister.

What a terrifying disaster for me.

"Bacon and Eggs" is the title of the article. Now, there is not one word about the pig's head in the article. Maybe the Irish Times clientele is too aristocratic to deal in pig's head or maybe they have not the same high regard for pig's head and its value for money as against the back rasher as the Minister has. I have not the same view of pig's head as the Minister has. When you buy a pound of rashers you get a pound of meat. When you buy a pig's head, it might be like the head of any member of the Government Parties — 90 per cent. bone and 10 per cent. cheek. Of course, in view of the fact that the Minister developed his tremendous power of oratory on pig's head and suggested that John McCormack produced his beautiful voice on it, it might prove to be the basis of a new industry as well as the ice cream industry. It might be directed towards voice production. The Cultural Relations Committee might have their attention drawn to the value of pig's head as a voice production agent and we could have something like the Hamburg State Opera here in our own native country.

I had better read part of this leading article:—

"The Minister for Agriculture is always a stimulating speaker. He knows every trick of the orator's trade and, whether he has a good or a bad case, he can be trusted to make the best of it. It cannot be gainsaid that he has been a successful Minister, at any rate in one very important respect. He has galvanised his Department into welcome activity and has been able to infect members of his staff with some of his own enthusiasm."

Before the Minister came to office, we can regard the Department of Agriculture as a dark, dank, gloomy, waveless pool with the lame and the halt of the Civil Service spiritlessly sitting on its edge, waiting for the angel to come to stir the waters. And, lo, an adult, chubby cherub with an expanding waistline comes along and by the force of his personality and his dynamic energy, the waters are agitated and those who were halt and lame move with the precision and the swiftness of a Cavan forward line. I hope they, too, have the endurance of the Cavan people.

Deputy Cowan need now have no fear about at least one Department of State, the Department of Agriculture. The dust and the cobwebs and the rubbish that accumulated on the files in the Department of Agriculture during the Fianna Fáil régime have all been swept away by the flying coattails of a revivified staff. It strikes me, in view of the proposals and happenings in the country recently, that this revitalised staff of the Department of Agriculture would make a magnificent staff for a task force that has only 24 hours to reach its objective. If Deputy Cowan starts on "Operation Brooke" or "Orange" or "MacManaway" I suggest that he should go first to the Department of Agriculture and comb it out for this magnificent revivified staff. It would make a magnificent staff for such a task as Deputy Cowan has in mind.

On a point of order. Has it not been a tradition——

I am raising a point of order. Has it not been a tradition of this House that, if Deputies wish to criticise a Minister's administration, they will criticise the Minister and abstain from praising or dispraising the members of the Civil Service? It seems a questionable procedure to abstain from attack——

Is this a speech or a point of order?

I am making a point of order. It seems a questionable procedure to abstain from attack upon me while directing an attack upon the civil servants in my Department.

It is a fact that civil servants should not be praised or blamed. The Minister is responsible to the House and not the civil servants.

I can say that I would welcome all the help I could get from the Department of Agriculture for the staffing of this new volunteer army.

You will get it certainly, especially with this increased production.

Sometimes I regard the Minister's attitude as questionable. I am trying to assess the value of the Minister's services; not merely that but, in what I am saying, I am trying and shall try to be helpful to him. I do not indulge in either praise or blame for the civil servants in the Department of Agriculture or in any Department of State. But, as the raw material of a particular effort of the Minister's surely I am entitled to assess the success that he has made of his Department.

Of the Minister, yes.

At any rate, if we leave the Civil Service and the Department of Agriculture completely out of the argument, we still have the task force of "Operation Brooke". Wherever we recruit the staff, would it not be well that we should have as chief of the general staff a loyal and well-known republican? What better man could Deputy Cowan have as chief of the operations that I mention but General Not-so-Slim, Field Marshal the Minister for Agriculture.

He will come in on the second wave.

I can assure Deputy Cowan that he would not let the grass grow under his feet coming back.

Is it in accordance with constitutional practice, as apart from a question of order, to have an ex-Minister encouraging civil servants to join Deputy Cowan's army?

The Deputy should drop the whole question.

According to the memorandum, we have roughly 8,000,000 acres of pasture. Much of it is sadly in need of rehabilitation and practically all of it could be vastly improved. If I may quote the Minister: "It cannot be done overnight, it will take some time and an enlightened policy energetically put into effect before a wide improvement can be made." The Minister said, as reported in Volume 121, No. 13, columns 1818/9:—

"We are building up stocks of indigenous dry grass and hope we are on our way to ensure that every farmer in this country growing rye grass for sale will grow a pedigree perennial indigenous stock suitable to the soil of this country. I have this interesting fact to tell the House. I abolished protection and restriction of every sort, kind or description on the grass seed trade 18 months ago. It has never been more prosperous since and we are now exporting substantial quantities in competition with every other country in the world."

In the Statistical Abstract, there is no information relating to seed production and export. Possibly it is too early, but I wish that the Minister would, when replying, give us the fullest information in regard to these exports and imports, if it is possible for him to do so. In 1948 we imported 99,460 cwts. of grass seeds. Are we still importing or have we a surplus for our own needs? Has the Minister dealing with this roughly 100,000 cwts. of grass seed been able to give a guarantee to the farmers that this was certified and tested seed?

I would also be interested in knowing what the number of acres of grass land is that have been scientifically laid down since the Minister came into office. The Minister has a magnificent opportunity now of putting an effective grass policy into operation, under the terms of the land rehabilitation scheme. I have not sufficient information about that scheme to judge its working or success, as I have not seen it in operation anywhere. The Minister would be obliging us if he would tell us where in our constituencies this scheme is in operation, so that we may examine it and satisfy ourselves as to the value of the work being done. The only information I have is the photographs the Minister has displayed in the House.

I distributed a complete schedule for every county in Ireland yesterday.

Quite so, but there are a few, I think, in county Cork. It is a big county and I have not the information as to where they are. Perhaps it would be a good thing for me to write to the Minister and ask him where the land rehabilitation scheme in my county is going on, as I would like to see it.

Certainly.

I have an open mind on it. I believe in any form of land rehabilitation that can be of any value. If these photographs I see in the House are indicative of the type of work the Minister is engaged in, I can hardly commend him. Deputy Giles was speaking a while ago about the attacks of the Fianna Fáil Party making for the failure of the scheme. Deputy Collins made the same statement last night and it is a general statement made by members of the Government Party. If there were a saboteur in the country at any time, it was Deputy Dillon. He never saw any good in anything Fianna Fáil did, no matter if he adopted it when he was Minister. Right, left and centre he tore every proposal of Fianna Fáil apart. We took it. But it seems to me there is growing in certain sections of our people an exceptional thin-skinnedness. A dramatic critic cannot offer an opinion on Hamlet in dress clothes but all the self-appointed intellectuals run to attack him. An art critic cannot give his views on a picture show but we have the surrealists of the cultural relation committee on his back.

On a point of order, we have travelled very far but to survey the Mona Lisa and the modern interpretation of Shakespeare's art seems to be spreading the net very far.

The Deputy, I presume, is making a comparison.

I am not at least trying to prove that I am an intellectual.

The Deputy is making a pretty good shot at it.

An Opposition politician cannot offer an opinion on ministerial policy but he is guilty of sabotage. "Hit me now and the child in my arms." I have no desire to do that and I would be a worthless hound if I desired to sabotage any effort made by anyone for the benefit of this country. Yet it is my opinion, for what it is worth, that the drainage of certain types of land results in little profit and that the clearance of furze and scrub does not show a profit commensurate with the amount of money and energy spent. I have seen much of this land, a good deal of it in my own constituency, reclaimed at a vast expenditure of money and energy, and with the least shadow of neglect that land reverts back to its original condition. There is undoubtedly good land such as Deputy Giles mentioned covered with furze, scrub and bushes and with drains choked due to continued neglect. This land can really be brought back to heart and cultivation, but the mountain land and the bog land, for a start at least until the other work is done, is hardly, to my mind, worth undertaking.

Did the Deputy see where a Clare man was charged yesterday with impersonating a horse?

Does the Deputy suggest that I am impersonating an ass? I could say something about that but this is not the place.

There is in this country a good deal of land potentially arable that would make magnificent pasture. Some drainage and some fertiliser could bring it to the standard of first-class pasture and would give a swift, steady and sure return for the money and time invested and I would recommend to the Minister that he should devote his time in the first place to the rehabilitation of this land. There is a good deal of it in my constituency that could be handled with very little expense and little effort and which would make first-class pasture land.

The Minister said that a good deal of this work has been done in the Scottish Highlands. It has been done in the Scottish Highlands in association with a vast scheme of afforestation. The drainage and rehabilitation of the land shown in the photographs by the Minister must, if it is to be successful, also be in association with afforestation. I do not know if the Minister appreciates this because in Volume 116, No. 2, column 173, he says:

"The Minister for Lands and I will be able to delineate our respective spheres of influence and on his trees will emerge, while mine will accommodate quadrupeds and men. I shall not say anything more provocative about forestry than that at the moment."

I think the Minister should in his reply say something provocative about forestry and let us know exactly what his opinions are regarding reafforestation as associated with the work of rehabilitation he is attempting. We who believe in forestry believe that it is an essential part of land reclamation and we would like to know what the Minister's views are on this subject.

I am most anxious to see the land reclamation scheme utilised for the elimination of valueless vegetation and its replacement by the valuable nutritive grasses. The Minister has said that dairying is the basis of our agricultural policy. The feeding of cattle is a most important factor in milk production and we have evidence of this from the figures given to us by the Minister of milk production from 1947 to 1950. That is all due to feeding. The best test of a policy, the Minister says, is its results. The Minister has given us these figures of milk production for the years 1947, 1948, 1949 and 1950, January to June: 1947, 34,595,000 gallons or 22 per cent. of the total yield for 1947; 1948, 41,020,000 gallons or 21.1 per cent. of the total yield for 1948; 1949, 54,180,000 gallons or 25.8 per cent.; 1950, 62,830,000 gallons or a possible 25 per cent. of this year's production. This is made to look well by comparison with the disastrous year 1947 but it is still well below 400 gallons a cow and that despite favourable weather conditions, fertiliser supplies and the Minister's revolution of grass policy.

The Minister has been making comparisons between the counties Laois and Limerick setting out to prove that a grass policy as opposed to a tillage policy has as well as all its other advantages that of employing more labour. In Volume 121, No. 13, at column 1792 he says:

"Take Laois where tillage is conducted almost to the exclusion of live stock."

Now what are the figures? The area of Laois is 434,892 acres and the crop acreage is 83,320 while the crop acreage in Limerick is 71,939. In Limerick, however, there are five milch cows to one in Laois and arising from that fact there are double the number of other cows, pigs and poultry. The dairying industry is the foundation on which the whole system which we operate is based — thus the Minister. Exactly. The greater employment in Limerick is because of the fact that the agricultural economy there is based on the dairying industry. The increase in volume in milk since 1947 has been brought about merely by better feeding. Still better feeding and we can produce more and add further to that volume.

The rates are still too low and feeding is only one factor in the business. As important a factor is that of breeding. The English farmer breeds for milk; the Scottish farmer breeds for beef and we want to have the best of both worlds, beef and milk under the same hide. The tendency for many years has been to breed towards beef. The 1926 Livestock Act has been eminently successful in increasing the cost of dairy produce to the consumer and in ensuring an inadequate return to the farmer for his capital and labour. I do not care whether the Minister pins his faith to the Shorthorn, the Friesian or the Jersey. All I ask is a bias in favour of a milking strain in the dairying districts. Greater milk production from a lesser number of cows on a smaller acreage is a realisable ideal, beef production beside it, without undue overlapping. There is plenty room for development.

The most urgent, vital and greatest need is the rehabilitation of the dairying industry, first, by way of a breeding policy and by doing away with the present bull inspection or radically altering it in the dairying districts. The Minister, I understand, has found certain difficulties in the way of recruiting staff to operate the parish plan. These men are supposed to have certain academic qualifications and experience, and that is as it should be, but I have grave doubts as to the capacity as inspectors of the bull inspectors who go around carrying out inspections in the villages in my constituency. I think most of these men have no qualifications of any kind. They may have some experience, but even that experience is militated against by the fact that their instructions are to pick a certain type of bull which is bound to produce beef. We ought to have a bias in the dairying districts in favour of the dairying industry. I am no believer in Utopia. I do not think this can be done in a day and there are bound to be failures. I am not at one with any fanatical idea that we ought to change our programme all at once, but in my constituency the farmers are being militated against by the policy in operation now and the policy which has been in operation since 1926.

Secondly, I think the Minister would be helpful to the dairying industry by transferring his attention from the submarginal lands to the potentially good lands under the land rehabilitation scheme and by the substitution on these lands of the nutritive grasses which, as I have repeated time and again, we need, for the present valueless cover we have. The Minister has stated something with which we are all in general agreement — his policy of one more cow, one more sow, and one more acre under the plough.

Is that agreed by the Opposition?

I think it is.

That is important.

I do not think we ever disagreed with that point of view. I am looking for better pasture land and a co-ordinated tillage policy with it. How is he going to achieve this objective? Sixty-five per cent. of all the live stock in the country are in the dairying province of Munster; over 40 per cent. of the pigs are in Munster; there are 100,000 more pigs in Munster than in Leinster; and there are as many sows in County Cork as there are in Connaught and the three Ulster counties together; and one-third of the tillage of Ireland is done in the dairying province of Munster. What is the Minister going to do about realising his expressed ideal? He is draining bogs while relatively good land can, with 25 per cent. of the effort and cost, be brought to heart and cultivable standard. He is stressing the fact that our future agricultural policy is completely dependent on our export of beef to Britain and he is offering the farmers 1/- a gallon for milk. I am afraid that some of them fell for it, but not for long. The Intelligence Bulletin of the Commonwealth Economic Committee for June, 1950, gives the following list of butter prices. In the United Kingdom, because of a long-term contract, the price is 168/9, but in Denmark the price is 315/3. In France, the price is 414/9; in Germany, 414/9; in the United States, 478/-; in Canada. 389/1; in Belgium, 527/7; and in the Irish Republic, 275/10. It seems to me that, in comparison with the producers in other countries, the Irish farmer is not doing so very well.

To what period do these figures relate?

The figure are for May of this year—the market figures for May of this year. The Minister offered 1/- a gallon to the farmers in fear of a surplus which does not exist. There is not really a surplus and we have not yet reached a position where we have to dispose of a surplus and I think we ought to cross our fences when we come to them. If the Minister reduces the price of milk here to 1/- a gallon, instead of having a surplus of milk we will have a deficit of milk and grave and evil repercussions on many other parts of our agricultural economy. I think he will strike a blow at the dairying industry from which it will not readily recover. We do not want to sabotage and I resent the suggestion that we are trying to sabotage. I resent it from Deputy Collins and Deputy Giles and from any other man of any other Party. We are as good Irishmen as came into this House. We want to help this country and we want to co-operate in any effort being made for its benefit, but we hold that it is our duty, as public representatives, to offer our opinion on any policy produced in this House by any Government.

I regret the tone of this debate generally. I make an exception of the last speaker, but from neither side of the House was there a serious effort to help the Minister to solve the very big problem he has to solve of putting the primary industry of the country in the position it should be in. I am afraid that some of the speakers were more inclined to make political points than to have due regard for the importance of a prosperous agriculture to this agricultural country. Deputy Smith and Deputy Cogan have tabled a motion to refer back this Estimate. I am not supporting that, but I have a certain number of suggestions and, I hope, constructive criticims to offer to the Minister. I believe that the farmers are reasonably well off at the moment and I do not agree with people who come in here and put on a poor mouth about everything. There are a number of things however about which I feel the Minister is not having due regard. We are at the present time in what is usually called the post-war period. A number of the Deputies in this House have lived long enough to know that we had another post-war period in 1922 or 1923 and during that period farmers of the country were also doing reasonably well. It must be remembered that during that period the costs of raw materials and rates and taxes had increased and these increases remained during the depression which followed. I do not know whether we are likely to have a similar depression on this occasion, and I hope there will be no depression, but it seems to me looking at the prices which we are being offered by our neighbours for eggs, bacon and butter that there is already a reduction in the prices which can be had for these commodities. Whether that is the beginning of a depression period or not I cannot say. I hope it is not but I think that we and the Minister should remember what happened after the first world war and see to it that we and the country will not have to face similar difficulties in the future. At the moment we are paying considerable sums for things we need to meet our requirements and that position has been aggravated by the present international situation. We are dependent on the dollar countries to a large extent for fertilisers, machinery, and live-stock feeding stuffs, if we can get them. The Minister looks at me when I say that but I think the Minister is the one person in this House who believes that the best commodity on which to feed pigs is milk.

What fertilisers do we get from dollar sources?

If the Minister would let me make my case I will be glad to answer any questions he will put to me afterwards. I am only sorry that he did not put some questions to me or get my advice before he made certain of his public pronouncements. We are faced with the position in which we find that there is a depression in the prices which we are able to get at the present time from Great Britain for our agricultural products. In the past the position was that for political reasons certain industrial countries depressed the prices for foodstuffs and I was hoping that from the organisation of the International Federation of Agricultural Producers there would be some agreement between the food-producing countries to see that that would not happen again. We hear a lot of talk about surpluses but there is no such thing as a surplus of food in this world. While all the talk is going on about surpluses, millions of people throughout the world are dying from starvation and malnutrition. There was never a time in the history of this country when there was over production of food.

The Minister has introduced a number of very useful schemes. Amongst these is the scheme to provide water to all farm dwellings. That I think is a very courageous scheme and is a scheme which I believe is not putting any undue burden on the taxpayers of this country as it, like the flour that is coming in, is being paid for out of Marshall Aid, except for that portion which the farmer who enjoys the facilities offered must provide. On that point however I would like to say to the Minister that he announced some time ago that the scheme was to be announced and a number of people started to get on with the work of the scheme then. They were expecting an announcement of the introduction of the scheme and the provision of application forms at the Spring Show this year. The scheme was working with electric pumps and looked very nice when it was on display at the Cork Show but the people could not get the details of it or secure application forms. Some people with leisure on their farms had a certain amount of work done in view of the Minister's statement that announcements were shortly to be made and they now find that they are completely cut out from the benefits of the scheme because when they got the application forms there was a line set out in leaded type in the conditions governing the scheme to the effect that they were not to start any work on the scheme until the Minister had inspected it and given them permission to go ahead. I would like the Minister to stretch a point in that regard. These people had started their work and had their applications in, even though they were not on the official application form, and as things stand at the moment they find that because they had taken the initiative they have cut themselves out completely.

Under this scheme I understand that a grant is to be made available for pumps, piping and tanks. These pumps, pipes and tanks are there and it could quite easily be proved that they were only installed in the last few months, and I think the Minister should include these people under that scheme.

I am inclined to agree with Deputy Moylan in regard to the land reclamation scheme. I think there is a great deal of land in the country which after rehabilitation will not be worth the amount of money being put into it. There is a considerable amount of land that has deteriorated. It is not bog land, it is not overgrown by furze and is not full of stones because during the economic war period the people who owned it, even if they did not have money, had the energy to work and clear that land and they are completely cut out so far as this land reclamation scheme is concerned. The Minister should extend that scheme and where it is proved by a soil survey or analysis that the land is deficient in phosphates or lime the Minister should enable the people to bring that land back into production by making these fertilisers available to them at reduced prices.

Does the Deputy suggest subsidising it?

I know what the Minister is going to tell me: that that would mean subsidising cartels and rings but the Minister could get over that quite easily. Comhlucht Siuicre Éireann has imported a considerable amount of ground phosphates and certain potash manures and it will be quite an easy matter in those circumstances for the Minister to extend the scheme to cover land that it not water sodden, furze ridden or embedded with stones. These lands were held and worked by people who were hard workers and did not allow furze bush to grow and who cleared the land of any stones without a grant or a subsidy. The Minister is paying subsidies at the moment for the reclamation of land such as I have described. I say that there is land that has been kept in a certain condition by people who had the energy to do it but had not the money. They put their muscle and their sweat into it but they had not the money to restore the fertility that these particular fields lacked. I would ask the Minister to try to extend the scheme, to think over the suggestions I am making, to consult other people who know something about it and get their views and I think he will find that there is something in the suggestion I am putting up to him.

I tabled a motion some time ago asking for an inquiry into the whole question of pig and bacon prices, including the price of pig products. That motion has been on the Order Paper for a considerable time. On one occasion, the Minister being very eloquent and very clever, thought that he was having one up on me, if you like. He turned to me and he said: "I will give Deputy Lehane his inquiry. I will put Deputy Lehane on it and the first people I will bring before the committee will be the Cork Farmers' Union Abattoir, Limited, and the Clover Meats people of Limerick." I said "all right." I was quite agreeable but I heard nothing about that since.

The Deputy has not completed the quotation.

That is the substance of it.

I am entitled——

Do not misquote me.

I am not misquoting the Minister. Actually, what happened was that the Minister turned to me in replying to the debate on a pigs and bacon motion by Deputy O'Reilly and said: "I shall give Deputy Lehane the Commission and I will put him on it and the first people I will bring before him will be the Cork Farmers' Union Abattoir, Limited, and the Clover Meats people."

No. If the Deputy looks up the debate he will see that I told him I would give him the inquiry if they did not come up to scratch but soon after the Clover Meats people guaranteed a price of 195/- a cwt. for the next six months.

I asked the Minister on a number of occasions about the price of pigs and the Minister prognosticated a price of 190/-. I came into the House here afterwards with thousands of pig dockets which I offered to the Minister showing that the price of 190/- was not being paid. I came again and I asked the Minister was he aware of that and he told me that he was not, that in Limerick there were three factories paying a price of 190/- and 192/-. I came with another question and I asked him if he would tell us where they advertised these prices. I raised the matter on the adjournment and I could get no information until I tabled another question. I found then that these prices were then being advertised by being stuck on the backdoor of a couple of factories in Limerick. At the same time I had thousands of dockets in this House which I offered to the Minister on several occasions showing that certain factories were paying only 170/-, while the Minister said that they should pay 190/- and that they should be able to sell bacon at a certain price. Since then the price of bacon has advanced considerably.

I think it is very important now that the Minister should give us this inquiry. Every time the price of pigs is put up 4/- a cwt. the price of bacon soars 2d. a lb. One need not be a mathematician to know that it is quite unreasonable to have such an increase in the price of bacon for an increase of 4/- per cwt. in the price of pigs. I would again appeal to the Minister to give us this committee of inquiry to inquire into the whole question of the pigs and bacon industry. I warned the Minister at that time that if the racketeering that was going on was continued, there would be a shortage of pigs and there will be a shortage of pigs. It will be further aggravated by the increases in price of feeding stuffs and the lack of feeding stuffs due to devaluation and the failure of the crops in certain countries.

When I was speaking on this matter about two years ago, I suggested to the Minister again that he should be a little bit cautious in extending the egg industry unless he got a long-term agreement so far as the price of eggs is concerned. Now we are faced with the position that the price of eggs is decreasing while the price of feeding stuffs on which hens will have to be fed is increasing and it is getting scarce. I think that if we supply a commodity to Britain and Britain is at the same time supplying commodities to us, we should at least get some sort of reasonable agreement. When we want coal from Britain she exports it to us at 25/- per ton more than she sells it to consumers in England but, on the other hand, she wants commodities from us at a lesser price than we must charge our home consumers if we are going to give a decent standard of living to agricultural producers in this country.

I do not agree with the Minister in blaming Deputy Davern and Deputy Blaney about the shortage of potatoes and oats. I think the Minister has a certain responsibility in that regard. himself. The Minister made a public announcement when the oat crop was just about to go into the market to the effect that huge quantities of maize at a very cheap price would be available almost immediately. These huge quantities of maize did not become available until a considerable time after the date mentioned by the Minister and they did not become available at the price suggested when the oat market was opening.

We all know, and the Minister knows, that the percentage of the oat crop that is cashed is very small and if the Minister had held back that speech for a month or two months, he would have been in plenty of time to give notice about the cheap maize and the small percentage of the oat crop that goes on the market would have gone on the market and would have obtained a reasonably fair price and everybody would have been satisfied. Actually, what happened was that all the stuff was dumped on the market and afterwards people were wanting to buy it back when the cheap maize that was promised did not come.

So far as potatoes are concerned. I think the Minister has a certain responsibility also. He established a marketing board and on that board he gave a very inadequate, if any, representation to producers. It was a board composed of factors and middlemen, and these middlemen gave the farmers half the price they were promised for their potatoes. They gave them £5 odd when the price f.o.b. was £10 13s. In addition to that, they made the unfortunate farmers coming into them put the potatoes through a measuring machine and they discarded considerable quantities of potatoes which should not have been discarded in my opinion. In many cases fellows came in with two tons of potatoes. They got £5 for the ton which was taken from them and they were told to take home the other ton. I may say that they were very glad afterwards that they did so. I do not think the Minister is being quite fair in putting all the blame for this matter on the shoulders of Deputy Blaney and Deputy Davern.

Certain representations have been made to the Minister by the cow-testing supervisors in the country. They are a body of men who are nobody's children. The Department, principally, pay their salaries but they say that they do not employ them. The cow-testing associations who, I suppose, nominally employ these men on the instructions of the Department — when they have passed examinations laid down by the Department and when their appointment is sanctioned by the Department — say that they are Department officials. These people have been looking for some time past for some sort of decent remuneration. They have made several pleas to the Minister. The Minister may not agree with the present system of cow testing. I am inclined to have a great deal of sympathy with the Minister in that point of view. However, as long as these people are there and in employment they are entitled to a decent wage.

The Minister should do something in the matter. Either he should make up his mind that he does not want cow-testing supervisors and tell them that or else he should not keep them on the long finger and say that something will be done when something else happens; that when the co-operative creameries or the Dairy Disposal Board do this the Department will make up its mind in regard to what it believes and thinks about cow-testing associations. If the Department believes that there is no use in continuing cow testing and that the future policy will be to breed off proven bulls, let the Minister tell us so. Let him say: "We do not want the registered cow, the premium bull and the earmarked calf, the progeny of these." Let the Minister tell us that and tell these fellows to try and get some other job or let him try and work them in as inspectors under the water scheme or the land reclamation scheme. I want to say, in this connection, that I am criticising not only the Minister but also his two predecessors in office. These cow-testing supervisors went to Deputy Dr. Ryan when he was Minister for Agriculture; they went to Deputy Smith when he was Minister for Agriculture, and they have now gone to the present Minister. Their experience with the three Ministers is that they were put on the long finger. It is about time something was done or that they were told to get out or told that there was no future or at least told the policy of the Department as regards cow testing.

We heard a great deal from Deputy Smith, Deputy Corry and other Deputies on the subject of milk. A costings survey which was carried out by University College, Cork, was misquoted in this House and elsewhere by both Deputy Corry and the Minister. The Minister said he himself had no authority to quote these figures and he said yesterday that he got permission from Deputy Corry to quote them in future. While I agree that the Minister did not quote them, the Minister misquoted them on a number of occasions — notably at Charleville when he was opening a cheese factory there. These costings were carried out some years ago. If you want to relate these costings to present-day conditions you must scale them up to meet the increased charges that have occurred since they were made. Everybody knows that in a dairy herd there is a considerable labour content. The labour rate in 1946 was a good deal less than it is in 1950. That is one item that will have to be scaled up. The particular herds that were costed in that year were fed with a good deal of imported feeding stuffs. That matter also will have to be scaled up. Even if the 1946 costings had been truly and accurately quoted, I would point out that they do not give any guide to conditions as they exist to-day unless they are scaled up intelligently and scientifically.

I do not know what to think about the Livestock Breeding Act. My attitude all along has been that if we have dairying districts we should have dairy cattle in them. The Minister announced that a price of 1/- a gallon would be available for milk for the next five years and that that would bring about the greatest era of prosperity that this country has ever experienced — and that, if the farmers and the co-operative societies did not accept that scheme, such a glorious offer would never come before them again. The co-operative societies and the farmers did not accept the scheme, as far as I know. I wonder, having regard to the Minister's words, if that means that the future of the dairying industry is bleak and dreary.

If we have lost this golden opportunity, which will never occur again, of getting 1/- a gallon for our milk, I wonder if, on that basis, we are wise at all in producing dairy stock? If we have lost that golden opportunity, might it not be a more sensible policy in the long run — even if in the dairying counties we were to have the Whiteheads, the Herefords—to go in for dry stock? We would not then have any problem of surplus milk and we would have no bleak future to face. It is a matter which the Minister and the Department should consider very carefully. If we have lost that golden opportunity of 1/- a gallon for milk and if we shall never have such a golden opportunity again, and if, at the same time, there is a guaranteed market for live stock in Britain, I wonder if it would not be wise for us to put all our money in that basket? I do not think it would be, but the matter is one which the Department of Agriculture and the Minister should consider very carefully —especially if the dire threats of the Minister mean anything.

The Minister, it would appear, has lost interest in flax. The best flax in the country can be grown in many parts of County Cork. Instead of having to go to Belfast and appeal to the Belfast spinners to take his flax, the Minister should see that a spinning factory is established in the Twenty-Six Counties. I suggest to him that in West Cork and South Cork we would grow enough flax to keep a spinning-wheel going if it were established in such a place as Bandon, that would tap all the south and west Cork areas where we can grow far better flax than can be grown in the Six Counties at the moment.

This is important for a number of reasons. Linen or flax products are substantial dollar earners. At the moment we take our flax and scutch it in Cork in a number of scutching mills and send it across the Border to the spinning mills. It is afterwards exported to America and other areas and the dollars that come from it accrue to the Six Counties rather than to this country. The Minister should seriously consider that suggestion. He will not have to withdraw from the attitude he adopted. He can still be offended as he likes with the Northern spinners. He will deal with them much more effectively by establishing south of the Border a flax-spinning industry that will produce a commodity that will bring a number of dollars to this country and which will be helpful to the general State economy.

These are the few points I want to mention. I hope the Minister will have some little consideration for them. I move around the country and I meet more farmers than the Minister, because of his office, has time to do and, because of the Minister's elevated office, he probably does not hear the truth so much as I do. I hear views that are not always complimentary either about myself or the Minister. The point I am trying to make is that the Minister would not have the same facility for getting the opinions and feelings of the people as I have. I am offering these suggestions to him for consideration and I hope that when we speak on the Estimate for Agriculture next year some of the criticisms that I have offered will have received serious consideration by the Department.

In this debate we have had a number of Deputies on the Government Benches making a very mild attack on the Minister. That is in keeping with their usual attitude on this Estimate. Sometimes one would think that they are worried because they may be afraid of his unscrupulous tongue. It would be well if Deputies who sit behind the Minister would give him their opinions and the opinions that are expressed throughout the country as to the way in which he is operating his policy at the present time. I noticed that the Deputies who spoke did not dwell for a moment on any of the items that are really of very deep concern to the farming community. Every Deputy, I am sure, listens from day to day to the people in the country complaining of the position in which they find themselves regarding eggs. In his opening speech the Minister told us that eggs at 2d. each would pay very well if only the people produced their own stuff to feed the hens.

What is wrong with that?

I will tell you what is wrong with it. I wonder would the Minister convince the Deputy that if you have to feed hens with oats at 4/6, potatoes at 2/6 to 3/6 per stone, with Indian meal at 30/- per cwt., eggs would be a paying proposition at 2d. each. I do not think he would find any housewife to agree with him or any farmer who would be prepared to allow eggs to be produced if hens had to be fed on those cereals at their present price. It would be well if Deputies informed the Minister that that could not be done.

We have the same position regarding poultry. Most Deputies know that the poultry scheme has been a complete flop. I think it was Deputy Beegan who said last night that the Minister has produced an automatic hen which, when he presses a button, will lay for a certain period and stop laying for a certain period. I wish we had that sort of hen throughout the country. Everybody would be satisfied then.

The Minister was very concerned, in his opening speech, because he could not find a market for farmers' butter.

It is not very amazing that Ministers cannot find markets for many commodities. They are never reminded of the fact by the Deputies who sit behind them, and they never admit, that it is due to their own stupidity or call them mistakes, to put it mildly. When the Minister for Agriculture was queried as to the production of farmers' butter and the possibilities of finding a market for it, I remember he told the House and the country — it is on the records — that, in the case of most farmers' butter produced here, you would have to wear a gas mask to go near it. Do Ministers think that, when they make statements such as those, a market will be found for that commodity in any country in the world? If you are told that you have a commodity which is rotten, which you cannot approach without a gas mask, how can you expect to be able to create a market for that commodity? I do not see, nor can anybody else, how it could be done.

He spoke about what you had in storage.

It is the butter that you had stored that he spoke about.

The Deputies may get up and defend the Minister, if they so desire, but the appeal I am making to the Deputies is to give the Minister the opinions that are freely expressed throughout the country. In that way, they would help to educate him along a better line of agricultural policy and would focus his attention away from the disastrous policy that he has pursued from the first day he came into this House—not to-day or yesterday.

A £16,000,000 increase — that was the disaster.

I am not at all surprised at the attitude of Deputies sitting behind the Minister. Since the Minister took office, and prior to that, we have on the records of the House disastrous statements — I think Deputy Moylan dealt with them fairly well to-day — that were in no way helpful at any period of our life, even at the most critical stage, either to the country, the farming community or the people as a whole.

The Minister, in his opening speech, referred to Deputy Lemass and he talked about the Pied Piper of Hamelin and all the rats. Deputy Lemass was discussing the cost of living, but the Minister tried to convert his speech into an attack on the farming community. That was not the case. Any attack made on the Minister for Agriculture or the Minister for Industry and Commerce is made because of the disastrous effects of their policy through the country. We are looking at a world that may, in the very near future, be involved in another war. We have the principal countries in the world, the countries with the biggest say in this question of whether there will or will not be a war, day after day telling us that war may come any moment. If, in the autumn or the winter war breaks out, what will be the position of our people as regards food? Does not every Deputy and every intelligent man in the country understand, from the experience gained during the last war, that if our people are to be fed they must be fed from the soil of Ireland? There is no other country that will dump stuff here and leave her own people hungry.

Is it not reasonable that we should expect from the Minister for Agriculture, at this very critical stage in the history of the world, some assurance that provision will be made for the production of extra food? Everybody who has listened to the Minister in this debate has one clear understanding from him; and that is that we should feed the bullock, produce food for the bullock. That is the new tillage policy. Several times we have had a statement quoted from a previous Minister about producing another cow and another sow and putting another acre under the plough. That policy was talked about, but it was never given effect to, even by Fine Gael in the old days or by the present Government. I think they should change that now. It is all right to produce another cow or another sow, but you should change the end of the saying and make it double or treble the number of acres under the plough. If you do that you will be making headway.

Without compulsion?

Even if you have compulsion. Compulsory tillage has been criticised. Compulsory tillage, in the minds of most of the people in the county I have the honour to represent, is a very essential thing. I will give an instance of how essential it is. In Tuam, Galway and Ballinasloe, when the poorer sections of the community go into the market to buy potatoes who do they find is their biggest competitor? They find the big farmers coming in to buy five or ten cwts. of potatoes because they will not till their own land. We are afraid to compel these fellows to till.

I know a farmer with 300 acres within two miles of the town of Tuam. He was compelled by Fianna Fáil in days gone by to till a certain amount of his holding, but he never employed a man — he let it in conacre. I know a man who lives in a labourer's cottage and who had 25 or 30 acres part of the time. Last year he was cut down to 15 acres. That man is living in a labourer's cottage with one acre of his own. He had five acres of the 15 under beet, seven under potatoes and three under oats. This year he would not get a perch to put under one crop or the other. The man who refused him, the man with the 300 acres, will be in Tuam as long as this Minister for Agriculture is in office and he will compete against the poorer sections in the purchase of farm produce, in buying the bag of potatoes that the poor so badly need.

The whole policy is to forget about compulsory tillage, forget there may be a war to-morrow morning and ignore the fact that the people will not have grown here any of the food that will be so essential for their maintenance. I was pointing out that in view of the possibility of a world war breaking out, it would be well for us to picture where we would find ourselves as regards food for our people. Our tillage policy has completely gone. The encouragement thrown out to the farmers since this Minister took office is to produce the bullock, grow better grass for the bullock, produce more beef and mutton, but forget altogether about getting the essential food to feed our people.

We have a surplus.

We have, but when, where, how or why? We had a surplus one year because the Minister advised everyone to cut out wheat growing. We had a surplus of oats and the oats were lying in the haggards and the farmers could not see any prospect of a market for them. When the matter was brought to the Minister's notice by various deputations he told those people to go home and thatch the oats and hold it over for a while. They did so, but when they went to thresh the crop the rats had eaten most of it.

Last year we had the position that the Minister switched away from oats to barley. We had discussions here and Deputy Lahiffe raised the matter in the Dáil. It was rather late in the season, because most of the farmers had to dispose of their barley. They did not want to hold on to it too long because they were doubtful about a market. I think Deputy Lahiffe will be able to explain that when the Minister's staff went round to find out where the barley was they discovered it was disposed of a week or a fortnight prior to their visit. Some of it was disposed of before Deputy Lahiffe raised the matter here.

It was all disposed of that time.

I think Deputy Lahiffe will be able to produce sufficient evidence to show to the Parliamentary Secretary, who is a Galway man too, that that was not the case, that that is just another bit of bluff by the Minister. There is nobody who should know better than the Parliamentary Secretary the type of bluff the Minister carries on.

I am only reading the replies to the individuals that Deputy Lehane referred to.

You are only taking the Minister's part, and the Parliamentary Secretary is the one individual who should never take that Minister's part.

Deputies should keep to the Minister's Estimate.

I am dealing with the Minister's Estimate. When the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister for Agriculture did not agree too well on many things, and when Deputy Donnellan claimed to be representing the farming community, the present Minister said it was God help the farming community he was representing, and he hoped that God would give them sense.

I now pass on that compliment to the Deputy himself.

The Galway Deputies should exchange their compliments somewhere else. They should not do so on this Estimate.

The Minister told us there was a market for first quality produce in fresh condition in Britain, and that even if we made a supreme effort we could not even hope to supply that market. I notice that the Minister was over at the other side recently trying to make a deal. I have not so far heard how successful he has been in that respect, or whether he has reached any final conclusion. The only thing I heard was that he has a guarantee of 2d. for an egg which he claims himself to be a good price. If the Minister has this great market for first-quality products, I think it it his duty to tell the House and the country what this produce is and the prices which the people may expect to get for their products. I cannot myself fully understand the Minister because he seems to be a bit muddled up.

I remember the Minister coming before the House in 1948, with the Deputies who support the Government, and telling us of the long-term agreement that had been made with Britain, and that the farmers knew exactly where they stood. I have never seen that long-term agreement worked out as regards butter, cheese, eggs, bacon and the rest. If that long-term agreement was all that the Minister claimed for it, why is it we have now to pay a subsidy on the bacon that is being exported to Britain, or why is it that we have to have another new agreement in regard to butter, cheese and the rest if that long-term agreement was the great thing the Minister says it was? Why is it the Minister has no market in Britain at present for most of the commodities that we have to sell?

I think that those supporting the Minister now find themselves in a position in which they should stand up and say to him: "Well, Mr. Minister, you have made a fool of us for a certain length of time; will you now tell us why that long-term agreement has not been binding during all those years?" I think the Minister at that time said that the agreement was to be at least a four-year agreement. Most of us were led to believe that.

With regard to food production for our people in the event of an emergency, I have heard a number of people say that the Minister has been encouraging the growing of wheat and a number of other things. Deputies who have been in the House for a long time know the Minister pretty well. Deputies who only came in here recently do not know him as well, so I suggest to them that they should look up the records of the House. If they do they will see exactly what type of man he is. They do not know him as well as experienced Deputies, and so they should try and inform themselves about him.

As Deputy Moylan pointed out to-day, the Minister, when he was Deputy Dillon, sitting on the Opposition Benches, made statements which had a very damning effect on this country at a very critical period. When an effort was being made to get our farmers to go away from the grazing end and become a little more acquainted with the plough, Deputy Dillon, as he then was, made a desperate effort to try and kill that policy. Despite his efforts, however, and the efforts of a lot of those who are supporting the Government to-day, particularly the Fine Gael people, we succeeded in forging our way, and in being able to provide the people at home with all their requirements.

With two ounces of butter.

We took the Blueshirts off them, and we made them Republicans.

Deputy Killilea on the Estimate.

When I hear Deputies tell us of the great interest which the Minister for Agriculture has in the production of wheat, and of the great things he has done for wheat growing, all I have to do is to look up the records to realise exactly how serious he is about these things. A reference to the records shows that when we were in the middle of the emergency, the Minister was trying to damn our wheat policy. As late as June, 1947, Deputy Dillon, as he then was, said:—

"I want to say again, with emphasis, that once wheat from abroad is available to this country again, I would not be seen dead in a field of wheat on my land."

As an encouragement to the people of this country to grow wheat he said further:—

"We had the enthralling, stimulating and surprising experience of eating bread made out of Irish wheat. Before you ate it you had to hold it out in your hands, squeeze the water out of it, then tease it out——"

It was true.

"— and make up your mind whether it was a handful of boot polish or a handful of bread."

He had another story to tell about his policy to encourage beet growing. Deputy Corry dealt with that question pretty well yesterday. He showed to the House the type of sugar which the Minister is now importing. The sugar that we require could be easily manufactured in this country if there was any little encouragement at all given to beet growing by the Minister and the Deputies who are supporting him.

What about the Tuam factory?

How could we expect to get beet for the Tuam factory when there is not a Minister, a Parliamentary Secretary or a Deputy sitting on the Government Benches who grew an acre of beet for the Tuam factory last year.

That is not true. I grew beet for it

Where can we expect to get the beet for it then?

You are wrong in that. I grew beet for the Tuam factory and I lost money on it, too.

You never grew an acre of beet for Tuam in your life.

You are wrong. I did grow beet for Tuam.

You can have your own factory.

Deputies can make their own speeches. They should not dissipate their wisdom in interruptions. They should concentrate it in their speeches.

We know all about Tuam beet factory.

Deputy Killilea on the Estimate.

From the remarks that have been passed, it is quite obvious what interest the Deputies who have spoken have in the success of the Tuam factory. It is quite obvious that they are not interested in the success of the Tuam factory. All they are interested in is having the Tuam factory removed. The workers who are employed there and the farmers who are supplying it should get a fairly reasonable crack of the whip but obviously some Deputies do not want them to have even that much longer. There are Galway Deputies in the House who are not prepared, evidently, to say a word in defence of it.

A fairly reasonable crack of the whip!

I was reprimanded here recently because I quoted a speech made by Deputy Davin in Tuam at a beet drive. I have pointed out before that I shall always quote any speech made in this House, or elsewhere, that is detrimental to the interests of the Tuam beet factory in getting more beet to that factory.

Good luck to you. Why did you put a factory there?

Is that Fianna Fáil sabotage?

I know why you put it there.

A number of people seem to be dissatisfied because a factory was put west of the Shannon. I thought we were all supposed to be very interested in the decentralisation of industry. I also thought that every Deputy would make it his business to support any factory that is established in order to make a success of it. I cannot understand why Deputies should set their minds so resolutely on one particular factory. It is the only factory west of the Shannon at the moment.

And not getting support.

The Tuam beet factory is not the only one that is not getting a full supply of beet. I think Thurles and Mallow are not getting full supplies. I think there is only one factory that is getting a full supply at the moment. I do not want to go into details on this because, if we were to discuss it, we would have a very lengthy and interesting debate. May I remind Deputies in the western counties that if every county in the West of Ireland grew beet to the same extent that County Galway does, the Tuam factory would be the most successful sugar factory in the country. It is no use reminding the Minister for Agriculture because I know that his efforts will be the same as they were in the past where the success of any of our factories was concerned, but I would remind Deputies from Roscommon, Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim that it would be no harm if we got a little more support from them in their constituencies in connection with the Tuam factory. It is up to the farmers to keep that factory there. If they want to do that, they can do it. If they do not want to do it, nobody can compel them to do it.

I want to deal now with the land project. I am not one of those who criticise that project because I welcome any scheme that will help to improve generally the fertility of the lands. I am a believer in the improvement of the land. I do not know what success this scheme will achieve. I do not know what progress will be made or whether or not it will be a success. I hope it will be successful. There is one snag in it. If a farmer undertakes to do ten acres of land he can do it in either of two ways; he can do it himself or he can get the Department to do it. If he gets the Department to do it, he must put down his deposit before the actual work is started.

Not necessarily.

I take it he has not to put down a deposit.

He can add it on to the annuity.

That does not make any difference. Arrangements must be made before the work starts, irrespective of whether it is or not by way of addition to his annuity. If a farmer undertakes to reclaim ten acres, the Department then owes him £200. But the farmer does not get one shilling of that money until such time as the work is completed. If it takes him 12 months, he must pay his labourers during that 12 months. Now I think the Minister should make arrangements to pay the farmer as the work progresses. He should not be left waiting on his money; £200 is a lot of money to a farmer reclaiming a tenacre plot. Arrangements should be made to pay at intervals so much per acre according as the work progresses. If the Minister accepts that, he will find that it will prove very useful and beneficial to the farming community as a whole.

I agree with those Deputies who have pointed out that it is not enough to just drain off certain lands that are subject to flooding or covered with bushes. Travelling along the country, one will see plenty of fields growing nothing but rushes, moss and so on. I think something should be done to bring those fields back to fertility. The case has been made that something should be done by way of making fertilisers and lime available for such land. Those lands should be improved. They are merely run down and they require a certain type of treatment. That work is just as important as any of the other schemes the Minister has. I would urge the Minister to consider these two aspects of land reclamation.

I think it is disgraceful to waste 1/-subsidising bacon going into the British market. Our own people at the moment find it difficult enough to pay 3/6 to 4/-a lb. for bacon. Whatever the Minister may say about pig's cheek, one cannot live on pig's cheek alone. The Minister told us we could get bacon at 1/2 a lb. I know many people who would be delighted to meet the Minister and find out from him where exactly they can procure bacon at 1/2 a lb., unless it is the stuff that has been thrown one side and walked on for the last six months. There is nowhere you can procure bacon at 1/2 per lb. at this moment. The Deputies opposite know that and it would be well if they informed the Minister, so as not to have him making those wild statements.

If the money used in subsidising bacon in the British market were used to subsidise it at home, the consumption would be much greater and the amount we would have to sell outside would be less, so we would have a more satisfied people here.

I hope that what I have said in connection with land reclamation will be considered seriously by the Minister and that he will make the grants from time to time rather than wait until the job is complete and then hand out one big sum.

I would ask the Deputy to read the White Paper, page seven.

I am sorry this debate was not approached in a more serious and more objective manner, as it is a very important debate. However, a miracle happened in this House — no greater miracle since Moses touched the rock — when a Deputy spoke for five and a half hours and said nothing.

Longer than that.

We had a vapour of bitterness and vituperation that was a reflex of the mind of a disappointed and disgruntled politician. I took particular exception to the latter part of Deputy Smith's speech, when he made reference to the Minister's association with what he termed a secret organisation.

Is he not president of it?

Incidentally, I know the organisation he meant and I know that that organisation sprang from the hardship and the enslavement and the tyranny of a despotic administration in this country, which inspired a section of the people to meet it. The organisation was adorned by no less a man — it would be harder to get a better man — than the late Joe Devlin, a man whose name, when all of us have passed, will embellish the pages of Irish history as a most distinguished Irishman. I was a member of that organisation and hence the reason why I repudiate the sinister attack made on it. The organisation is the Ancient Order of Hibernians. They contributed a noble part in the defence of faith and fatherland. The Deputy opposite might not in those days be admitted into it, as the scrutiny was very severe.

I have here to-day's Irish Press. I see in it that Deputy P. Cogan is represented as having said:—

"The Minister has failed to provide a decent market and fair prices for agricultural produce and failed to provide the capital necessary. It is unreasonable on that basis to expect the farming community to perform miracles. If the Minister did his part, the farmers would do theirs."

I am somewhat surprised that Deputy Cogan—who, from my experience in this House, displayed a very personal interest in improving the conditions of the agricultural community — did not approach that question last evening in a more factual and constructive way.

If I may be permitted to go back a few years to speak of the condition of affairs when we took over two short years and five months ago, I would point out that we had a disappearing dairying industry. I give credit to Deputy Smith——

Do not do that.

I will. I am perfectly honest and I think that if we tempered our arguments with a little more Christian charity it would be much better and much more progressive work could be done. We have had much bitterness in this centralised attack more on one Minister than anyone else. What way was the dairying industry?

Probably the West Limerick farmers will tell you.

I know all about it. I am also an auctioneer and I had to experience the tragedy, though beneficial and remunerative to me, of selling time and again bawns of cows. You had no calves, though during the economic war there might have been good and sufficient reason for that. I know as a public man with various other avocations that it prostrated the whole agricultural community then. I saw the condition of affairs when we came in here two and a half years ago. I give credit to Deputy Smith for increasing the price of milk. Were it not for his intervention — I had a tough passage with him in the Seanad about it — it was then in a most precarious position. Then the calves were selling at 10/-. What are they to-day? Whiteheads to-day are making £10 to £12.

What are shorthorns?

£7 to £8.

We bought them less.

There were no pigs and no bonhams then. Now the whole market is of intense and competitive interest, bonhams making £5 to £7 a piece, giving a remunerative market for fat pigs at 200/- a cwt. The Minister is being attacked right, left and centre. He had to smash the cartels. He found even an illegal bacon factory here in a Dublin cellar and it was smashed. He introduced a system of land rehabilitation but it is being criticised. Yet there is no more convincing appreciation of it than the fact reported in the papers yesterday that 44,640 farmers have already applied for the beneficial advantages which that particular scheme has for farmers.

Deputy Corry, who is always entertaining, often interesting and rarely informative, although he is sometimes factual, said yesterday that there is no use in exporting butter to people who do not want it. He spoke much about getting maize from the Argentine but he forgot—and it might be judicious for him to forget and very politically unwise to state — that when we came in here there was £150,000 worth of oatmeal from that country and when it was medically examined it was found to be unfit for human use and infested with creeping bacteria called weevils. If it had not been got out by the Government it would have walked out. He was forgetting when speaking of wheat that 24 hours before we came into office Deputy Lemass for some inexplicable reason — it seemed to me quite indefensible—bought 150,000 tons of wheat at £50 a ton when better wheat was available at £30 a ton with a net loss to the community of £2,600,000. He did not mention that yesterday, but these were some of the things that hampered the wise and progressive policy of the Minister for Agriculture and the Government as a whole.

We had a rather instructive address from Deputy Moylan. It has been stated here to-day, it has been the philosophy of all Governments here over a number of years, it is an admitted fact in economics and it is axiomatic that the basis of the whole economy of this country is agriculture and if agriculture is not prosperous it reacts on every section of the community. We have had the experience of the past; in the first world war when agriculture was prosperous that prosperity was reflected through the towns and villages and it was particularly noticeable in the form of better and more continuous employment of the working classes. Then it was admitted that unless that industry is prosperous your economy will be affected. The dairying industry, it is admitted, is the basis of our whole economy and it is to this point that I would like to draw the attention of the Minister for Agriculture — I am glad he is here.

Perhaps there was good and sufficient reason for the Minister to leave to the farmers of the country a few months ago to decide whether to accept 1/- a gallon for a period of five years, but I would draw Deputies' attention to the international position of milk. In the United States of America £1,000,000,000 sterling of milk has been converted into food and in that same country there has been converted or manufactured into food — and this is rather staggering — nine years of the United States egg supply ready if you like to be released on the world market. England and Wales — and it was known to the Minister, I presume — have since the last war intensified their efforts to meet their own demands and in the month of January 1950, England and Wales produced 132,000,000 gallons of milk which was 15,000,000 gallons more than they produced in January 1948, and 53,000,000 gallons more than they produced in January 1947. New Zealand offered England a cheaper butter than we could supply and, although there was no compulsion on them to do so as they had a guaranteed price for butter supplied to England until I think 1951, Denmark was prepared to say to John Bull: "We will give you cheaper butter now if you give us a fixed minimum price for five years." Our own country, too, according to statistics given by the Department, has increased milk yield by 100 per cent. in 1949 — I speak subject to correction. Look with the long view and vision at that international competitive market, each fighting for a market, each fighting for supremacy. The Minister, I presume looking out into the future with vision and with interest in the farming community, thought it would be good to suggest to farmers the consideration of that fact. The farmers at the moment have turned it down and it is here I come in. We are a most important dairying county. According to statistical returns, the three counties in the south, Cork, Limerick and Tipperary with little bits of Kilkenny and Kerry thrown in, manufacture 63 per cent. of all the butter manufactured in this country. We have in my county 44 proprietary creameries built by farmers on their own initiative, with their own money, and it is a highly skilled, prosperous and successful industry. They are up against the problem of increasing costs. The workers have got at least two, if not three, increases in the past couple of years. Rates are going higher and higher, due mainly to the increased social services and to increased remuneration to the staff employed.

These are hard facts which operate — I will not say unequally — severely against the farmer. The cost of production of everything he produces is going up, and, if a cow aborts or some such loss arises, the cost of replacement runs to a very considerable sum. We are told that 65 per cent. of the people living in this country derive their living mainly from the land, that is, the farmer, his family and those employed by him. If 65 per cent. of the community are in the state of penury or want, or are struggling in any way, or if the industry to which they have given their lives is not prosperous, how will that react on the remainder? I suggest it will have a very prejudicial effect. I, therefore, appeal to the Minister, on behalf of the industry which, in the main, I represent, that he should make the price of milk static for five years at the price payable to-day, that is, 1/2 per gallon.

The farmers are extremely pleased with the work of the Minister, and I have even met Fianna Fáil farmers who hold that view. I have been asked by a few farmers for whom I filled forms whether it is true that, if they apply under one of these schemes and get their land made more productive, their lands thereafter will be re-valued, so that they will then be increasing the value and productivity of their land but concurrently increasing their valuation. I said that it was not true and Deputy Smith, if he wishes, can call that sabotage. Since this Government came in, the land has been drained and considerable improvements effected, and this scheme, together with the other schemes adumbrated by the Minister and the Government, will in time bring into fertility 2,000,000 acres of land which are unproductive to-day.

There is one other matter to which I want to refer and at which I shall keep hammering while I am in the flesh, on the basis of the dictum of Harry Lauder: "We will march along to the end of the road." In 1936, the then Government got a statistical return the authenticity of which cannot be questioned. It was a return by the Registrar-General and it disclosed a tragedy in our history, a disappearing rural population — 60,000 fewer children in rural schools as between 1926 and 1936 and about 200 rural schools closed. Did any of us ever think we would see realised in our day the dictum of our Irish poet, Goldsmith: "A bold peasantry their country's pride, when once destroyed, can never be supplied." They are rapidly disappearing and that has not taken place since we came in. It is a cancer from which we have suffered for a long time. I do not know whether Fianna Fáil did much in this regard, but I suppose the industrial revival initiated very considerably by Fianna Fáil must have done much, but last year the position was that not a man was available. They seemed to get a new outlook on life, but the building of houses which is now in progress has created new hope and the land reclamation scheme is keeping them here. According to the Minister for Local Government, some 6,000 or 7,000 have come back, and these are encouraging signs.

If we could have a little more of the spirit of co-operation and less wrangling and bitterness and fewer attacks on the personality of a great Irishman, the Minister, we would be able to go ahead more quickly. The Minister had the interests of the farmer at heart and that fact is appreciated by the farmers, but we have had concerted attacks on the personality and work of the Minister just because he is Deputy Dillon. The Minister is a man with vision and progressive outlook who sees in the world of to-day a new competition which we have to face. When he spoke of doing away with horses, we had it written up in the Press: "Dillon wants to do away with horses — what will he do away with next?" But if we are to hold our place in competition with the world, with Germany, New Zealand and other countries, we must adopt scientific methods which will enable us to go into competition with them. The Minister is a man who has the necessary vision and I suggest that we should try to bury a lot of the bitterness which we have here. I often thought, when I heard Deputies attacking each other bitterly, that it would be a happy thing, were it not for the strangers in the Gallery, if an atomic bomb were to fall and get rid of the lot of us, so that we might get a new Parliament, with new decencies, new patriotism and leading to a new prosperity.

I think we are aware that if criticism did not exist democratic assembly could hardly carry on. I wonder if Deputy Madden informed the Minister of all he knows about foreign markets and what was to become of them. If that is the case I am surprised that the Minister took such a chance as to tell the people of the unlimited markets they have in Great Britain and other places. I can hardly decide who is right. At the same time the Minister was very candid in his opening statements when he said that the best policy was results and the best arguments were facts. Let us take some of the facts which exist at the moment and which we have been discussing here in the Dáil since this debate opened. One of the things that struck me in the last two or three years since this Government came into office was the difficulty which the Minister for Industry and Commerce stated in the House that he was having in getting men to work on the bogs and I have heard even farmers complain of the difficulty of getting men to work on the land. Having heard all that talk I read a short statement in the Irish Times under the heading of “An Irishman's Diary” and it struck me that this was an article which indicated in a way some of the results of the Minister's policy. The article is taken from the Irish Times of June 6th, 1950, and it is headed “An Irishman's Diary”.

It should have been "A Kiss of Death".

If the article is not correct I am sure that with all the machinery available to this Government it would have been able to refute the statement and not allow it to go unchallenged.

Does the Deputy think it is correct?

The article deals with certain matters and goes on to say——

Does the Deputy think that it is correct?

The article goes on to say, after the writer had dealt with several matters:

"One final word. I went down to Sligo by rail and came back by road, and the trip depressed me. The country was looking marvellously beautiful with miles and miles of burgeoning May trees gleaming in the summer sun but it all seemed to be deserted. Do you remember Joe Campbell's lines:—

‘The silence of unlaboured fields, Lies like a judgment on the earth'?

And that was how it looked to me. The people seemed to have gone, or to be going, from the Irish land. You will find them in Liverpool, in Manchester, in Glasgow, and dear knows where, but you will not find them at home."

Why did the Government not take some steps to correct that statement if it is not right? I think that that is a very serious statement. It is serious from the point of view of tourists who come in here and read that paper and it is serious from the point of view of people outside the country who read it. It is a serious reflection on the policy pursued by the Minister, because the article is headed: "Flight from the Land". I wonder could that article be true?

You ought to know.

I wonder could it be true or not? We have, according to the emigration officer of the United States of America, an immigration quota of 17,853 people, and up to date — that is, the month of June — 13,821 people have availed of that facility, so that there is not much use in our trying to prove that there is unlimited prosperity here or that we are going to have it. If we are going to have it then these people do not believe it. I wonder would that induce them to believe it?

We have here an enormous amount of poultry. Due to the amount of propaganda used by the Minister we have large stocks of poultry, and yet it is very strange in our economy that as the price of food falls the cost of feeding materials increases. In the case of eggs, the price is small but the cost of feeding stuffs is dearer. Two months ago the cost of mash was 24/6 and yesterday I paid 28/6 for the same stuff.

Why do you not grow your own?

We have, more or less, the same position in butter. Butter is now a surplus with us and the more surplus you have the dearer the butter gets. Why is that the case? At the moment we have a big surplus of butter and yet butter has gone up in price except, of course, in the case of that portion of it which is controlled and rationed. That puzzles me but maybe I am stupid. I cannot understand why it should be that the price of butter should go up when you have a surplus.

Nobody would believe that you have travelled the world, Deputy.

I believe the Minister knew two years ago what was going to happen so far as foreign markets were concerned. Cattle were the only thing that might stay up in price and that was only possible because the Argentine was a little more wide awake than we were. They got into the German market and having got on to that market they stood up to Great Britain in the matter of price and because they were able to do that the price of cattle is likely to stay up. We will be satisfied to bargain for what we can get for cattle in Great Britain or elsewhere and because of the Argentinian attitude the price of cattle will be kept up. The price of bacon and pigs will not on the other hand be kept up on the British market. At the present moment I take it that Chinese bacon and liquid eggs are being put on to the British market. The Minister has used his propaganda about the available markets purely for political purposes. I think most of us can see what reactions that is going to have throughout the country. The egg trade will not succeed, and it is a pity that people were stimulated to the extent they were and that they were induced to spend so much money on the poultry industry.

They have a guaranteed price for two years.

So far as the pig industry is concerned, we learn now that half the sows are not in young and the next thing we shall have is a scarcity of bacon, although we have a surplus at the moment. The Minister has been criticised by a member of his own Party for his attitude generally, but the failure of his policy is the funeral of every one of us. It was not Deputy Seán Lemass who struck the tuning fork and started the chorus. The people throughout the country are coming to the conclusion that the Minister has been trying to drive a wedge between certain sections of the people in this country. The cost of living is undoubtedly going up. I sympathise sincerely with people living in the towns but the farmers cannot possibly produce more cheaply. There is not much necessity, therefore, telling the people of the City of Dublin that they are being robbed by the farmers. The position at the moment is that our dependence on the British market is for live stock only. We have to make up our minds on that. We have to buy wheat and it will take the greater part of the money we receive for our cattle to buy that wheat. I think there is a good deal of commonsense in the article I have read and that the Minister was unwise in his attitude towards cumpulsory tillage. I think a certain part of the compulsory tillage programme should have been continued in this country.

There was more wheat produced in this country in the last two years than ever before.

Last year there was a smaller acreage but a better return. You fell on your feet in that regard. It was due to the weather conditions.

More wheat was produced in the last two years than ever before.

There was a good return last year. Although it was a bad oats year and a bad potato year, it was an excellent year for wheat.

It was sown on the right land last year and there was no compulsion to sow it on bad land.

If we have not enough wheat, we shall have to buy it. There is a good deal of talk at the moment about war but in my opinion that talk has not very much foundation. I think it very likely that you will not have war; that is my candid opinion but the majority of people hold that you will. Suppose you do, what is our position going to be? The Argentine took steps to collar the German market but we have no bargaining power left here at all. We shall have to take whatever we are offered. I think that in a troublesome world like this it is necessary to maintain a certain amount of tillage. The Minister I believe is converted to that view now and I think he has given expression to it already. I am not misquoting him or trying to prove that he said something that he did not say. I believe that is his tendency and it is quite a wise tendency. He quoted the dictum of a former Minister: "Another cow, another sow and another acre under the plough." I think that is a very excellent policy and one that the country would approve of. Even if we in Meath do not till very extensively, there are other people in the country who have to till. It is a terrible calamity that in a country like this, which is such a rich country, at this stage, in what are known as the hungry months we have not sufficient potatoes. During the hungry months, after the crops have been sown, there has always been a shortage to some extent but it is a terrible thing to say that people cannot get decent potatoes while at the same time they are told that 50,000 tons were sold to the British that they did not want. I do not know whether they wanted them or not but the fact of the matter is, and it cannot be denied, that potatoes cannot be found.

Yes. In general.

I dug potatoes a fortnight ago.

It is an awful thing when one goes down to the restaurant that one has to pay the price charged there for a rotten article.

Are you not on the Restaurant Committee?

You were for long enough.

The fact of the matter is that the potatoes you get are three-parts rotten. I heard Deputies mention where they came from but I just quite forget at the moment. They did not seem to have come from Irish soil anyway. That to my mind is a state of affairs that should not exist. As I mentioned a moment ago, the potato crop owing to the dry season last year, was under average. That might be some excuse for the shortage but if we sold 50,000 tons abroad there is no excuse for that.

Deputy Smith blames me because I would not sell them.

I think we have it admitted now that all we are able to sell on the British market is live stock. I do not believe that we shall be able to sell eggs there at the price offered. We shall not be able to manage to sell them butter at their price anyway and we shall have to rely entirely on live stock. As Deputy Madden stated, the Minister knew all about this long ago. Every one of us did; we had practical experience of what happened after the last war. The Minister is now proposing to expend £40,000,000 on land reclamation. That, no doubt, will give the country a nice appearance for tourists but we shall have to repay that money and it is a serious prospect if we have not a market for anything except a few cattle. It is no wonder that the farmers and others who have an interest in the country are getting a little restive and are anxious to see a change brought about. They are anxious to see a little more consistency on the part of the Minister because agriculture is practically the only industry we have, with the addition of a few others. It is through the agricultural industry that we must purchase all our requirements and consequently we should be free to express our criticism openly without being subjected to charges of sabotage. The Minister at the moment is patient and attentive and he is beginning to learn. He is much more subdued than he used to be. He still needs a good deal of education and I hope that before this debate concludes he will receive a further instalment of it because it should do him a lot of good.

The figures which the Minister gave us in opening the debate prove beyond any doubt that we have had an expansion in agricultural production. I think that everyone connected with agriculture is very glad of that expansion. Fianna Fáil Deputies seem to be critical of it but I suppose that is a game they have to play. The Minister has been accused by the Opposition of being opposed to the growing of wheat. Every Opposition Deputy who has spoken here has made the accusation that the Minister was opposed to compulsory wheat-growing. I believe that what the Minister did when he took office was the best that could be done for wheat-growing. He guaranteed a price to farmers of 62/6 or actually 5/- per cwt. more than had been offered by Fianna Fáil.

That price was in operation before the Minister ever sat on those benches.

Nonsense. It was not.

That price was fixed on 10th October, 1947.

You are daft.

Order. Do I take it that that is the Deputy's contribution to the debate or does he intend to rise again?

I shall rise later.

It proves what we have contributed.

What I say is a fact.

The Minister offered 62/6 a barrel for five years. The farmers then knew where they were.

That price was fixed before this Minister came into office.

I warn the Deputy that he must cease interrupting.

It has had the result that the wheat was grown on land suitable for that crop. During the Fianna Fáil régime wheat was grown on land that was not suitable for the purpose. It was grown in my constituency and the farmers there did not get back the seed they put into the land. That was bad economy. The figures of last year's returns prove the soundness of the Minister's policy. The Opposition Deputies claim that the weather was responsible for the low yield but I think that while the weather may have helped to lower the yield there was the other factor too.

During this debate there was a lot of talk about barley. I can assure the Minister that the farmers all over the country appreciate the fact that they got 12/6 a barrel more for barley last year than they got during the Fianna Fáil régime.

They did not, in County Dublin.

Anybody who signed a contract got it in my constituency. Deputy Corry yesterday tried to blame the Minister for the reduction in the acreage under beet. He produced figures to try to prove that a Minister was responsible for that reduction. I happen to know a little about the history of the beet industry in this country. We were growing beet in Carlow before ever Deputy Corry knew anything about it. When the Carlow Beet Factory was established over 20 years ago by the Cumann na nGaedheal Government, the Fianna Fáil Party of that time were very much opposed to the growing of beet. They actually called the Carlow Beet Factory a white elephant. When they came into office and realised that the Carlow farmers were still going to grow beet — and they grew beet there to the extent of 20,000 acres every year for the Carlow Beet Factory — they decided to erect more factories. The factories were erected in Thurles, Mallow and Tuam.

I think everybody realises that the Tuam beet factory should never have been erected there. The factory was erected in Tuam for political reasons. They could never get the acreage grown in Tuam. Right from the beginning there were difficulties. I do not blame the people of Tuam for that situation. It was not the tradition of the people there to go into tillage to that extent and they could not get up the acreage there. The result is that the acreage dropped to such an extent that beet had to be brought from South Wexford and other areas at a big freight charge.

About two years ago the farmers of Wexford believed that another beet factory was going to be erected. They got going in Wexford and they actually got a guarantee from the farmers in Wexford, South Kilkenny and part of Waterford that they would grow 15,000 acres of beet. A good deal of that beet was going to the Tuam area. Of course the Government could not and had not any intention of changing the Tuam factory. The ex-Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dr. Ryan, told the people of County Wexford that the Tuam factory was erected in Tuam although the experts advised against it. That proves without any doubt that the factory should never have been established there. If we had not a factory in Tuam but only in tillage areas such as Carlow and Mallow we would not have to face the high freight charge involved in having the beet brought across the country to Tuam. The Tuam factory is being carried by the other three factories. That is one of the problems connected with beet to-day. There is not enough acreage under beet in the vicinity of the Tuam factory to enable it to run efficiently. That has been the case all along and surely it is most unfair to blame this Minister for it. If the farmers in the tillage areas consider that they are getting enough money for beet they will grow it. I do not say that at the moment they are getting a good price. The cost of production has gone up considerably and it is, therefore, difficult to get the farmers to grow it. The sugar company have helped in every way they can to try and reduce the cost of production. They have experimented with the latest machinery to cultivate and harvest the crop and they have helped in no small way in overcoming some of the difficulties. I cannot understand how Deputy Corry has the cheek to blame the present Minister for the reduction in the beet crop. The reduction is there because the labour content is high and because it is difficult to get labour. We in Carlow who have been growing beet for over 20 years find it difficult to get labour.

The area is up this year.

The Carlow area was always constant. The Minister was attacked by the Opposition because he advised the farmers to mechanise. If the farmers are to keep up with the times they will have to mechanise their farms. There has been a great advance in that direction in the tillage areas. The great problem is that the cost of mechanisation is very high and that the small farmer is not able to meet it. I appeal to the Minister to try and do something in that respect. If a 20-acre or a 30-acre farmer wants to mechanise his farm it will cost him from £800 to £1,000 — and no small farmer is in a position to meet that expenditure at present. If the Minister could devise some scheme to help the small farmer in that respect or if he could have a capital sum provided to be repaid over a long period it would help the small farmer considerably. He, more than any other type of farmer, requires to have his farm mechanised. He has to keep a pair of horses and it is a great drain on a 30-acre farmer to have to keep a pair of horses on his farm. The pastures of this country are in a very poor state. The Minister has promised to do something about the matter. The problem must be attacked because it is very serious. Our pasture land has been run down because it has not been attended to. If the lands were manured and fertilised we could get good results from them. The carrying capacity of these pastures could be increased to a considerable extent.

Farmers all over the country appreciate the land reclamation scheme and are making very good use of it. They fully realise the advantages which will accrue from the expenditure of the amount of money which is going to be spent on improving wet and poor land and on clearing land of scrub. There is one part of the project that the Minister should reconsider. While the equipment that is being used by his Department — the heavy type tractor and ploughs for trenching work — is excellent, it is too costly for contractors to purchase. If the contractor waits to get the Department's machinery to do the job, it will never be done. The small type of machinery may not be nearly as efficient but if the Minister could standardise a small type of machine that would do that work, and which would cost in the region of £1,000 or £1,500, contractors all over the country would buy that type of machine and the land project would develop and would be completed much more rapidly.

In my constituency there is quite an amount of work being done in clearing rock on tillage land. Compressors are used for that purpose. The land project office, so far, has refused to give grants towards the purchase of those compressors except in the case of the heavier plant. The grant should be given to contractors who would be prepared to go ahead with the work of clearing these rocks off the land. If there were six compressors in each area, they would help considerably in getting that type of work done. It would be very useful in Carlow and Kilkenny to have compressors to clear the stones and rocks in the tillage areas. I believe that the Minister and his Department have done a very useful year's work and that if he continues in that way no one can complain.

I am very sorry that the Minister has left the House. I want to deal with a few points in connection with County Dublin and with matters that I have raised with the Minister for Agriculture during the last 12 months. One of my chief grievances and complaints against the Minister is that he does not understand anything about the position of tillage farmers in County Dublin. On numerous occasions, when I appealed to him to get a market for barley, last year, he told me to walk it off the land. The tillage farmers in County Dublin are tillage farmers in every sense of the word. They do not go in for live stock to any great extent and have not the land to do so. It is a pity that the Minister for Agriculture could not understand the position in County Dublin, as we know it. On one occasion I invited the Minister to accompany me on a tour of County Dublin so that I could point out to him how the tillage farmers work and indicate to him how nonsensical are the statements he has made about walking crops off the land. His replies to me on numerous occasions were gross misrepresentation and personal abuse. In my capacity as Deputy for the area, I tried to point out to him that his suggestion could not be taken seriously and was not practicable in County Dublin. There are certain farmers in County Dublin who have large holdings and who could do as the Minister suggests, but the majority of the farmers for whom I have reason to make representations from time to time, are tillage farmers only. There is another class of farmers in County Dublin who have made a good living out of conacre. They have no stock. They grow all kinds of crops and all they want is some assurance of a market.

All I want from the Minister for Agriculture is that he will give up his utter nonsense and be practical and not mislead farmers by wild statements such as he has made inside and outside this House from time to time. We walked into the trap of growing all the oats we want. Then the farmers found that the oats were left on their hands. The position was the very same in regard to barley. The farmers were told to grow barley and that they would get a price for it. The Minister backed out again and told the farmers they would have to make a contract with the brewers. That was a retreat.

Tillage farmers in County Dublin have become most disheartened. They feel that they are a section of the community that are not required by the Minister if they cannot grow corn for stock. Human beings do not count as far as the Minister for Agriculture is concerned. After all the blunders he has made in the few years that he has been Minister for Agriculture, it is time he gave up making wild statements. It is time to be honest with this House. He should not be so egoistic but should take advice from Deputies who have practical experience of the areas in which they live. He should not try to misrepresent them or to hide under the cloak of personal abuse. I come now to the question of wheat. Deputy Hughes, speaking of the Minister's policy, referred to wheat.

He spoke of the poor wheat crops grown under the Fianna Fáil régime. When Fianna Fáil were in office, and when they were trying to feed the people in this country, and when it was practically impossible to get any food, there were farmers who classified themselves as Irishmen and they started to set wheat under compulsion and they kept setting the same type of wheat for five or six years in the same land. Deputy Hughes must have been referring to people of that type. When it was most essential that everybody with a national outlook should do something to try to increase the nation's food supply, we had farmers doing that. Thanks be to God, we had not many of them in County Dublin. The County Dublin farmers were second to none. I have had the experience of seeing numbers of farmers growing more than they were required to grow under the compulsory tillage Order. That must have been the wheat Deputy Hughes referred to when he spoke of the very bad type of wheat in the country.

Sometimes you wonder has democracy failed when people like that, who are asked to face their responsibilities when the nation is going through a severe crisis, fails to do so. It is a good job for those people that they were under a lenient democratic Government. So much for wheat growing in County Dublin and other areas.

The Minister for Agriculture is not concerned with the growing of wheat or the production of other food. He is concerned only with the free importation of all foodstuffs, if he can manage it. He killed the barley price for the farmers and the price for oats, too, by making the announcement that we were going to have cheap maize in a short time. He accused Deputy Davern and Deputy Blaney of sabotaging the oats and the potatoes. He made an announcement prior to barley and oats going on the market that the people would have cheap maize. The people waited for the cheap maize. The Minister is the very gentleman who made this statement in 1939 when we were facing a critical period and when war was about to be declared. I am quoting from Vol. 76, col. 2242:—

"We speak of wheat. The Taoiseach seemed to justify the expenditure of £2,500,000 on the production of wheat on the ground that it provided a guarantee for us against starvation in time of war. Our problem in time of war will be to get food out of the country. Does not the Taoiseach realise that 5,000,000 acres of arable land will feed all the people of the country, even if you ram food down their stomachs with a ramrod? We shall be smothered, stifled and burned in a rotting heap of food stuffs in the event of war. That is the deadly blow that the enemies of Ireland can deliver against us — to suspend our outgoing traffic."

There are several other points that were raised by the same Minister. He has spoken of American bacon and he wanted American bacon into the country in 1939. So far as I can see from a national point of view, the Minister is not in favour of encouraging Irish enterprise.

Who fixed the highest price for wheat ever?

On 10th October, 1947.

You must be suffering from delusions.

The Minister for Agriculture, in face of the growing war clouds around our country, is slowly making us go back to depend on the foreign market for our foodstuffs. From a national point of view and from the point of view of good economics, anything we can produce should be produced here and if we are going back to the policy of exporting our people and letting foreigners produce the stuff that we get in here, if we are going back to that dependence again, I hope St. Patrick will bless the country once more and that we will not have the present Minister for Agriculture in office should any critical period arise.

I am not against trying to get better prices for our cattle. It is essential that we should have every phase of our agricultural life going well, but I am against almost total dependence on imported foodstuffs, commodities that we should be able to produce. The United States, England, France and other countries are talking about what is going on on the far side of the Iron Curtain and here we have our Minister gradually destroying every little particle of self-sufficiency that was built up under Fianna Fáil. The Minister has the support of Deputies from whom I would expect more, in doing that work. If the Minister is going to hold up to ridicule any little industries we have and if he is going to describe them as vested interests, the same as he told me on numerous occasions across the floor of the House, then it is time we should have a national stocktaking so far as his conduct and his general administration are concerned.

I must give the Minister for Industry and Commerce his due. He is honest in his way and he will try to protect his own industries and when you make reasonable representations to him he will listen to you. But when you go to the Minister for Agriculture he will tell you: "Oh, this is the fellow who has a small glasshouse and is growing tomatoes. He is a dangerous character and he is one of the vested interest people." The Minister spoke to-day of tomatoes being 4/6 a pound. I know they are dear, but so are potatoes.

It is only a few wealthy people who are in a position to have the glasshouses heated. They are the only people who can afford to sell tomatoes at this time. I can say that 95 per cent. of the people I am interested in are not in that happy position. They have not their glasshouses heated and they have to depend on the sunshine to ripen the tomatoes. Therefore, the price which the few lucky people are able to get for their tomatoes at the present time should not be taken as the average price. I am not pleading for high prices for tomatoes, but I am pleading for encouragement for the tomato industry which is only in its infancy. In my area in the County Dublin, it was gradually becoming a worthwhile industry. I see some members on the Government Benches having a chat. Perhaps it would be better if I were to sit down until they have finished it.

You could not get on worse than you are.

I might be able to get on better than Deputy Sweetman.

Do a little spring-cleaning to your brain.

On a previous occasion, I asked the Minister to leave the administration of the tomato industry in the hands of the inspectors and staff who had been dealing with it before he became Minister. I did so because I knew that from their experience they would be able to deal with a slump in the market if it should occur. I asked that they should be given power and authority to balance out supplies on the market evenly. They could import tomatoes if supplies were not adequate from the home producers, and prohibit imports when we were producing sufficient for the home market. In that way, an average price could be maintained that would be reasonable alike for the consumer and the producer. The Minister told me when I asked him to do that, that I was concerned with vested interests. I told him that I was not, that the one thing I was interested in was the protection of a national industry. It is one that we are anxious to see developed.

On a number of occasions the Minister asked me how it was that the people in Holland were able to export tomatoes so cheaply to this country. The reason is that our growers are up against many difficulties. Deputy Rooney knows, and I know, that people with glasshouses in certain areas of the County Dublin have to draw water a distance of three miles to them. The tomato industry in Holland has reached such a stage of perfection that no expense of that sort has to be incurred by the growers there. One grower in the County Dublin told me that last year he had to employ a man specially to draw water to his glasshouse. That involved him in a great deal of expense. Deputies can realise, therefore, the difficulties under which certain of our growers are producing tomatoes.

Are you delighted with the new water scheme of the Minister for Agriculture?

Their long experience in the growing of tomatoes places the people in Holland at a big advantage over our growers. They have wide experience in the elimination of disease in the plants. Our growers are up against that difficulty and so their return is often a very poor one. The building of the glasshouses is also an expensive item. Another point is that the soil in Holland seems to be more suitable for the cultivation of tomatoes. I have had that information from a man who grew tomatoes in Holland for a number of years. The crop matures earlier there than it does here. All these are points that have to be taken into consideration.

The reason why I am speaking so much on this is because this is one of our national industries. In fact, it is one of our few young industries. We have the Minister's shocking hatred of any national industry; we see how anxious he is to misrepresent it and kill it, and misrepresent anybody who speaks on behalf of an industry of this kind. I do not know why labour Deputies, who are so anxious to get employment for the unemployed, can stand over a policy of that kind. The Minister tells me that he is anxious to see that the people in Dominick Street will get cheap tomatoes. So am I. The Minister was not so anxious about those poor people when he asked them to pay 7/- a stone for white flour.

The Minister was not a bit perturbed about the poor then.

And 1/2 for a pint.

And 7d. for sugar.

Sevenpence for sugar and the white loaf. The Minister, with his wonderful sympathy for the poor, tried to put over all these things.

And that from a Deputy who is talking about misrepresentation.

I am delighted that Deputy O'Higgins has spoken because there is no Deputy who takes as much advantage of this House as he does to make slanderous statements here. I am sorry, a Leas-Chinn Chomhairle, to be taking advantage of the Chair.

The Deputy is not taking any advantage of the Chair. He can be sure of that.

I want to make a final appeal to the Minister on behalf of this national industry. I am sorry he is not in the House. It would give me a great deal more satisfaction if I were able to look at him across the House. I know he will come in later and will put out his two hands and say: "Oh, the poor; I am anxious to get things brought in from Japan and China and to let industry of every description in this country close down; we will send our people out of the country and we will have to import everything." Every statement that the Minister made as a Deputy on these benches was along that line. Instead of dealing with things in a reasonable way, he dealt out personal abuse to all the Deputies on this side when they spoke on behalf of any native industry. Leopards do not change their spots. This is the same Minister for Agriculture who tried to sabotage the national effort when every other Irishman was anxious to co-operate with the State by every means in his power. Recently I was a member of a deputation to the Minister for Agriculture. There were two Fine Gael Deputies on that deputation along with Deputy Matt O'Reilly and myself. We were interested in fruit growing in County Dublin and County Meath. We had a small meeting before we met the Minister and it was decided there that we should each make our own points as members of the deputation. The Minister received us. He remarked that the deputation consisted of two enemies and two friends. Then this man got up to make his point about fruit growing.

The member of the deputation to which I am referring. The Minister did not want to listen to any point at all that was made by any member. We had to listen for an hour and a half to his point of view. The Minister is like that: he thinks no man's point of view is worth anything but his own.

You may have learned a bit that day.

I wish Deputy Collins would learn to restrain himself.

It is very difficult.

He should make an effort anyhow.

We asked the Minister would he take an interest in the fruit growing industry. He told the deputation to go out and form a co-operative society and he would deal with it then.

I do not know. That deputation left the Minister and they were very disappointed. Some of them realised before they went there what the answer would be. The Minister could not see his way to do anything; he did not give them any encouragement. Some time prior to that I had asked a question here as to how much fruit pulp was imported. I was told there were some thousands of tons imported. I cannot see why the fruit growing industry should not be encouraged and developed by the Minister for Agriculture and his Department. If our apples and other fruits are not all that should be desired it is the duty of the Department of Agriculture, controlled by the Minister, to implement some kind of policy in relation to it. Every time a member of the deputation — and the grandfathers of some of the members there were growing fruit in their time — wanted to state his grievances the Minister was away again and we had to suffer on in silence. I can assure you I was in a very tight corner; otherwise I would have gone home. That is what we are up against. After the Minister had been with us for some time he told us he had an appointment and we left his room, as I had anticipated we would, without having achieved anything.

The fruit growers of Meath and Dublin will have to do something for themselves. The Minister for Agriculture is more interested in apples from Japan, Australia and South Africa than he is in apples from County Dublin or County Meath. The fruit growing industry should be developed and reasonable protection should be given. The same should be done with regard to the tomato growers. I want to be very careful now in dealing with this because the Minister and some of his supporters are past masters in the art of misrepresentation. I want to protect myself. It is the Minister's duty to see that the consumer gets Irish-grown fruit at a reasonable price and it is his duty to ensure that the maximum amount of home-grown fruit is produced. The sooner that is realised the better it will be. I knew a fruit grower in County Dublin who, in 1931, was about to give up the fruit growing industry. Fianna Fáil took over and the then Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dr. Ryan, realised that we should make the country as self-supporting as possible and create as much employment as possible for our people. This gentleman, to whom I have already referred, was about to go out of business because of the free trade policy of the then Government; he was not able to compete with the foreign market.

The Government you were supporting at that time.

I emphatically deny that. I was never associated, either publicly or privately, with the Party you refer to.

Did you not act as an election agent?

That is a damned lie and you will withdraw it.

Of course you did.

He was not here in 1931.

No, but he acted as an election agent for the Cumann na nGaedheal Party.

You will withdraw that.

I merely asked a question and I accept the Deputy's reply.

Do you withdraw it?

I merely asked a question and I have said I accept the Deputy's reply.

Deputy Burke was not here in 1931, were you?

Deputy O'Higgins made a statement and that statement has been denied by the person concerned.

I asked a question and I accepted the Deputy's reply.

There is no discussion on the matter. Deputy O'Higgins made a statement in regard to a certain Deputy and the Deputy denies that statement. Deputy O'Higgins will withdraw.

I would like to make a qualifying statement.

There is to be no discussion on the matter. You made a statement regarding the Deputy's past and the Deputy who is the person concerned denies that statement and the Deputy must withdraw.

I said on two occasions that I have already withdrawn the statement.

Deputy O'Higgins has withdrawn his statement and Deputy Burke must withdraw his.

I withdraw the statement: "a lie." I will only withdraw that but I will say that Deputy O'Higgins made a false statement.

The Deputy will withdraw the expression that what Deputy O'Higgins said was a lie without any reservation. Is the Deputy withdrawing that statement?

Yes, Sir, but it is untrue what the Deputy has stated.

There is no qualification. The Deputy must withdraw the statement that what Deputy O'Higgins said was a lie. Does he withdraw that statement or not?

Yes, I withdraw the word "lie," but it is an untruth on the Deputy's part. To get back again to this gentleman from whom Deputy Michael O'Higgins pulled me, he was about to close down his industry due to the policy of the Cumann na nGaedheal Government at the time. He got protection from the Fianna Fáil Government and to-day that same man is employing about 150 workers but to-day that very same man, as a result of the policy of the present Minister for Agriculture, is gradually letting some of the workers go. I wonder does Deputy Davin approve of that class of thing.

I will have to investigate it before I accept your word for it.

You would want to, Deputy.

That is only one of the many examples I could give of how these industries are being affected by the present policy.

He must have a lot of tomatoes to employ that number of men.

He has a lot of glass-houses and other things of that sort. The Minister for Agriculture has come in a little late because a lot of the fire has gone out of me but there are still some shots left in me for him yet. I wonder what the Minister is going to do about the fruit-growing industry and also what he is going to do about the tomato industry. I want to compliment the Minister on the fact that he is a past master in misrepresenting me on every occasion on which I have spoken about the tomato industry and barley growers and other growers. I wonder what the Minister is going to do about all these little industries which are still existing and what he is going to do for the people who are still trying to carry on tillage. Numerous representations have been made to him by deputation and by letter over the last 12 months on these matters but he still remains the hardened sinner who believes in a totally free trade policy of which he was such a great advocate when he was on this side of the House. Even at this eleventh hour I would appeal to the Minister to give some encouragement to these people or tell them that he does not give a damn about them as he has told a number of other people.

I have agitated here on a number of occasions on the matter of the provision of water to the farms in the North and South County Dublin but which are far removed from water supplies, except, of course, during the five or six months when they would have the ordinary surface water. I see in a statement by the Minister that he is considering the introduction of a scheme of that nature.

It has been in operation for the last month.

Yes, I know that, but what I want to know is, will the Minister operate that scheme by the sinking of wells or does he propose to bring the water from reservoirs or not? How is he going to work the scheme?

You can read all about it in the leaflet.

I have read the leaflet but it does not give the details of the operation of the scheme. We have the position in my area where farmers have to draw water distances of from four to five miles. I dealt with this matter on several other Votes and hope that a scheme will be put through quickly and that when applications are made for water by the farmers concerned they will be dealt with promptly and that the work will be carried out as expeditiously as possible.

It will take less than 15 years to do it in any case.

A lot of things of national importance happened in those 15 years and the national advance made in those 15 years laid the basis which would enable the Minister to carry out his schemes and develop them properly. The ground work was truly laid during those 15 years.

So far as the land reclamation scheme is concerned, I welcome any scheme for the benefit of our people but I should like to see this scheme advanced another step. I have a good deal of experience of land reclamation in a small way. I am dealing especially with land that has been drained and which it is proposed to till again. Frequently you see that land reverting to the condition in which it was prior to its being drained. I suggest to the Minister that he should try to extend the land reclamation scheme so as to restore the fertility of this land because if he is merely going to drain it, clean it and take the rocks out of it, the land will definitely go back to its former condition. I have seen that happen frequently. I have practical experience inasmuch as I saw my own father and other local farmers carrying out that work. While this scheme is a very good one, if anything could be done to encourage our farmers to till the land afterwards, it would be well to consider it.

What does the Deputy suggest?

The only suggestion I can make is to encourage farmers, where land has been reclaimed, to till it for a few years. In that way, I believe, there is a possibility of keeping the land in good condition for some time, but if it is just drained and left there, in a few years it is going to be as bad as ever. So far as pasture fields are concerned, there are a number of farmers in this country who believe that if they till a certain pasture field, they are going to destroy the grass of that field for some years to come. That may be true of Meath but there is a considerable amount of land in this country on which you would have better pastures if the farmers had a regular rotation of crops, as they have in Scotland, especially in the neighbourhood of Edinburgh. I happened to be visiting a relative of mine there some time ago who has been carrying on that type of farming for years and the method of rotating crops carried on there has a very good effect on the grass afterwards. We have pasture lands in this country that have gone sour and which are of very little use either for milch cows or for fattening cattle. No matter what fertilisers you put on them, they have not the same effect as if the land is ploughed up and a rotation of crops followed for a few years before the land is allowed to go back into grass again. If the Minister could encourage a scheme of that kind, I think it would considerably improve our grass land.

I heard the Minister speak of various types of grass seeds and he referred to the type of grass seeds procurable before he went to the Department as dirt. I can assure the Minister that he has not succeeded in bringing about any great change overnight by waving a golden wand over his Department. Long before he became Minister, good grass seeds were sown in every part of the country. It might have been that for some little period the quality of our grass seed deteriorated but the previous Minister for Agriculture took all reasonable steps to see that the best type of grass seeds were produced in this country. I have personal experience of areas in County Dublin in which very fine grass seeds were produced during the war.

The Minister for Agriculture now tells the House that there was nothing done prior to his coming into office. Can the Minister not recall seeing fine new fields and new meadow, second year meadow and clover, when travelling up or down the country during the 15 years he refers to? I wonder would the Minister try, even now, to cease the misrepresentation that he has carried on for a long time? The Minister has told us that nothing had been done in that regard. If we were to take the Minister's statement as literally true instead of having green grass fields in Ireland to-day, we would have nothing but a barren waste. It would be a desert altogether. One can only assume from the Minister's statement that he succeeded, by waving a golden wand after he became Minister, in producing new grass along the hillsides and valleys all over the country.

It was always there.

According to the Minister it was not until the Minister was appointed to his present office by the inter-Party Government. There was only dirt and rotting material there before. I ask the Minister when replying to tell us why he made such a slanderous statement about his predecessor.

What statement?

Did Deputy Collins speak yet?

I did, indeed, and well they know it over there.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again
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