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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 Nov 1950

Vol. 123 No. 10

Private Deputies' Business. - Loss of the Hay Crop—Motion.

Mr. Maguire

I move:—

That, in view of the grave danger of a shortage of animal feeding-stuffs in many areas during the coming winter and early spring as a result of the almost complete loss of the hay crop and in order to prevent great suffering to animals and serious loss to farmers, Dáil Éireann requests the Government to take immediate and adequate steps to deal with the situation—standing in the names of Deputies Oliver J. Flanagan, Patrick Cogan, Patrick O'Reilly, John Flynn, Peadar Cowan and myself.

We are doing this in the hope of securing a full understanding on the part of the Government of the serious situation arising from bad weather conditions during the harvest which now confronts if not the whole country at least sections of the country. I probably am not in the position to speak in a general way of the shortage of hay for feeding purposes with that intimate knowledge required to bring home effectively the seriousness of the situation.

I speak of certain areas of whose condition I am personally aware. I speak with full sense of responsibility and with intimate knowledge, and I assert that the Department of Agriculture, as the agent of the Government in this respect, have a serious problem to face, a problem which they should tackle in all seriousness, not in any light mood and not treating it merely as a casual happening, but as a serious national problem.

It would be quite wrong to assert in a general way that there was such a complete failure of the hay harvest last summer that the Government would be warranted in making special provision in the way of providing hay for all the cattle in the country at present. I am satisfied from reports I have got and from my own knowledge that there are many districts where the hay situation, possibly because of more favourable conditions, better husbandry or better family help, is not at all too serious, but there are other districts where, due to climatic conditions and other circumstances, the situation has become really serious and vital. This situation is not confined to a small number of people. A comparatively large number are affected, people mainly of the small farming class who are engaged primarily in the foundation of all things agricultural, milk production. They are suppliers of milk to the creameries and the supply of milk to creameries, as all Governments and all scientists know, is the foundation of our agricultural economy. If we allow these small farmers to suffer, through no fault of their own, a substantial loss in cattle at this juncture, the reaction must be felt not merely this year, but next year and in subsequent years.

The farmer who produces milk for supply to creameries is a man who receives least of all as reward for his dairying operation. In many cases, he does it on the poorest of land. He depends on the separated milk from the creamery for the feeding of his pigs and his fowl, and very often the separated milk returns and forms part of the milk supply of his own children. That may seem a harsh thing to say but it is none the less true. Such is the economy of the small farmer for whom I am speaking. His land is poor land and is almost invariably situated in areas where climatic conditions are of the worst, and accordingly, in adverse weather conditions such as those prevailing during the recent harvest, he suffers much more than does the farmer operating in better climatic conditions.

In addition to the price which he receives for his milk, which is his principal economy, he sells his calves at the age of six to 12 months and, out of the sale of these calves, he pays his current debts—shopkeeper, rates, rent, and such incidental debts, which must be paid in cash. He has been confronted with a situation for the past two or three months in which his cattle are not marketable. No doubt, one can look at the Dublin Cattle Market returns and see that such high prices were never before recorded, but that does not in the smallest way affect the small farmers with three and four calves of six months of age. There is no market for their product and when they take them to the fair, there is nobody to buy them. These are the people who, in the main, supply the graziers in the Midlands and fattening lands with the young stock from which the fat cattle are ultimately produced and which constitute our greatest national exportable asset.

I will pay the tribute to the Minister and his Department that in recent months they have made the utmost efforts, involving the State in fairly heavy expenditure, I have no doubt, to deal with what has become an endemic catastrophe amongst our cattle population, abortion, which results in the non-production of calves annually. The Minister has been well in advance of any of his predecessors in so far as he has made available to the affected districts a veterinary service which has done its utmost to eliminate that disease. The Minister must have felt justified in incurring that expenditure and must have felt that it would render a national service in the long run, but where does his responsibility in the matter of the emergency situation which this present year has produced come in?

He has a responsibility in the matter of the preservation of the young cattle who have no hay feeding and must ultimately die of starvation to provide hay or other feeding for the cows which will be bearing calves next spring. If these young cattle are allowed to starve, it will mean that so many more deaths will occur among our foundation stock. Many of these small farmers have over the years established with great care and attention a foundation stock of cows which are excellent, and through them, an excellent stock of cattle has been produced. Let one in three of these die of starvation, even in the limited areas where starvation is confronting them unless provision is made to ameliorate conditions there, and let two out of three of the young stock die, and there is a national loss. What is the sense of spending money, lavishly, but, as I say, rightly, in trying to eliminate this endemic disease of abortion and, at the same time, allowing the produce of these cows to die because an emergency has arisen, due to weather conditions, which must result in serious losses amongst that stock?

Furthermore, for many years past our Governments here have realised the importance of our cattle industry. They have provided premiums so that bulls of the highest standard would be available for the improvement of our cattle population. They have made it an offence for a farmer to keep any other type of bull. In some cases that has been a cause of hardship to farmers, but the point is that it has cost the State a good deal of money. I think it was well spent money.

In view of that, I suggest that the present emergency, one that probably occurs in ten or 20 years, should receive the immediate attention of the Minister. Otherwise, a great part of the valuable stock produced in the circumstances I have described will die of starvation. There is no reason why that should be so because, I think, that if an analysis is made of the quantity of fodder available over the whole of the Republic, sufficient hay will be found to feed the cattle in those districts where there is a scarcity of it. The districts which need it should have the surplus hay that is available supplied to them.

There is no use in saying that it is the farmer's job to look after his cattle and to feed them. It is, of course, his job, but if nature prevents him from doing that, then I suggest it is the duty of the State to do it. It should also do it from the humane point of view. If a farmer allows his cattle to starve he is prosecuted and brought to court. If the State allows cattle to starve without taking due precaution to prevent such an occurrence, why should it not be brought into court? If a farmer allows his cattle to wander, without making due provision for them, he renders himself liable to a prosecution.

Will the Minister say under what heading he can refuse to take action at this juncture? He must know what the position is. He can confirm what I have said, because he has his agents all over the country. There are districts at present in which there is not sufficient hay to feed and keep alive hundreds and thousands of cattle. The individual farmer is not in a position to make necessary provision for feeding them. May I, by way of illustration, quote for the Minister what the position is across the Border? Generally speaking it is worse in the north than it is in the south. But there the Government have taken action to deal with the situation, and so have the people there through their creameries and co-operative societies. They have listed the areas in which a surplus supply of hay is available. The farmers in need of supplies place their orders for them. They are aided by the Government, and arrangements have been made for the movement of surplus hay to the districts which need it.

I understand the Northern Government have gone so far as to arrange for the import of hay from Scotland and Holland. If that is the position across the Border where conditions are somewhat similar to the districts that I am concerned with, is it not justifiable to ask that some effort should be made by the Dáil to help our people who are without supplies of hay for their cattle? We are supposed to be more in touch with our people than the Government in the Six Counties is with its people. Therefore, why should not some similar effort be made here to deal with this problem and have arrangements made for the transfer of surplus supplies of hay to the districts in need of it? The Minister has an organisation in every county in the Republic. Through his officials, he can get particulars from each district where surplus fodder exists, and so have it transferred to the areas where it is needed.

I was in a district on the western seaboard six weeks ago, where I saw £20 a ton asked for hay That is an outrageous price. Even at that price, how could a farmer living 20 or 30 miles away from where it is available get in touch with the person who had it and how could he transport it? Where would he find the cash to enable him to meet his feeding requirements? An ordinary cow will consume from two to three tons of hay in the year. There are very few of those farmers that I speak of who could afford to pay £40 or £60 for the quantity of hay they would require. In an emergency such as this would the Minister not consider it his duty to fix the price at which hay should be sold, and, further, arrange for its transport so as to make the feeding economical in the case of people in necessitous districts? To meet the emergency situation that exists some co-ordinated effort will have to be made.

I do not want to exaggerate the position or to use it politically in the smallest way. I am speaking seriously on this matter. I am charging the Minister with responsibility for making such arrangements as will bring fodder into those districts where none exists at the moment, and of having it placed at the disposal of farmers at a reasonable price. That may require a subsidy. We must remember that cattle, poultry and milk production are being subsidised at the moment. If we are prepared to subsidise the production of cattle why, in the emergency that now exists, should we allow those cattle to be destroyed by our failure to provide the feeding for them?

There is no use in the Minister telling me that he can supply all the maize meal, oilcake and other feeding stuffs that farmers may require for the feeding of their cattle. It would cost 30/- a week for maize meal to feed a cow if she has no other rations. That is the price of one cwt. of maize meal or its equivalent. What is that going to cost a farmer for 40 weeks? Even if a farmer were willing to do that, is he to be asked to ruin himself? If he has not credit he will not get money to buy the maize meal for the period he would require it.

I suggest that the situation which this emergency has created calls for some kind of Government organisation to deal with it, and that is all that I am asking in this motion. I assert that in no circumstances will the Minister be able to clear himself by any theoretical proposals such as that he has this scheme and that or this and that method available to meet the situation. The present situation cannot be attributed to what is called the lazy farmer. It is due to weather conditions over which the farmer has no control. The position may be localised in this way, that in some districts local conditions are worse than they are in others, but the position, generally speaking, is bad. If the Minister is prepared to ask this House, as he has asked it, for a big expenditure for developing and improving land, and more power to him for doing it, he is surely short-sighted if he does not at a critical moment like this step in and help to retrieve some of the loss which farmers are bound to sustain owing to weather conditions which have been abnormal and which may not occur again for many years.

I am not putting this case to the Minister with a view to placing him at a disadvantage. No one blames the Minister for the weather conditions and the bad harvest results, but it is due to him to save a section of the community from utter ruin in many cases. If an ordinary small farmer loses three cows and three calves, it is a national loss. That man will be out of production of milk for the coming season. He will be out of the production of young store cattle for the coming season. There will consequently be a smaller supply of milk, butter and store cattle.

In the spring when the grazier goes to buy store cattle he will realise that there are fewer suitable cattle available for him. It will put the small farmer in a position where he will be out of business for years. I assert that it is the duty of the Minister to step in and provide a plan for dealing with this matter. He is very good at providing plans. I want a practical one in this case, not a theoretical one. It is his duty as Minister to deal with a situation that is of such wide national importance as this one, in which there may be the danger of a shortage of fodder. I ask him to discharge his duty and tell us what he proposes doing.

I should like to express my thanks to the Government for having allowed governmental time for the consideration of this important and urgent motion. To those who have listened for the past couple of weeks to the rosy picture that has been painted of agricultural conditions, mainly by urban and city Deputies, Deputy Maguire's speech must have acted like a trough of low pressure. However, I do not think he exaggerated the conditions. In this country we have a very wide variety of soil conditions and of geographical conditions so far as agriculture is concerned. I am not so sure that the climatic conditions vary very much, but I suppose they do to a certain extent. In every part of this country we usually get more rain than we can do with. But we have certainly found during the past year that there are a number of areas where the adverse weather conditions caused much greater loss than in others.

Those areas are mainly the poorer areas where the land is of an inferior type, the hilly areas, and, perhaps even to a greater extent, the low-lying areas, where the land is subject to flooding. Even when there is no actual flooding, owing to the land being of a low, moist and eroding nature, it is hard to save the hay crop. In those areas throughout the country we have a position in which the greater part of the hay crop has been seriously damaged and in some cases completely lost.

There are hilly areas in the County Wicklow, particularly in west and south-west Wicklow, where some farmers have been unable to save any portion of their hay. Some people may suggest that that was due to neglect on their part. It was not. On poor, hilly land we usually find that there is not an early growth of grass, with the result that it is late in the year by the time the hay crop is mature for cutting. Usually hay saving takes place from the middle of July onwards. This year it was in the early weeks of the hay harvesting season that we had the best and most satisfactory weather. Thus it was that in the later districts the greater loss occurred.

We all know that in intensive tillage areas where you have a considerable amount of first and second crop hay the crop is usually cut early in June and as a result practically all that type of hay was saved this year. It was in the districts to which Deputy Maguire referred, in the low-lying and hilly areas, that severe loss occurred. That has been a big loss to those small farmers whose resources are limited. They have to depend on the creamery to take their milk and very often the return is not so big in those areas. In a great many parts of the country where there are no creameries the small farmer has to depend on rearing young stock. Those farmers are very hard hit. It is true that strong cattle and cattle in forward condition have not reduced in price. I attended a fair last week-end and I can say that young cattle have depreciated in value very considerably because a lot of farmers are anxious to thin out their stock owing to lack of fodder.

In putting down this motion, we are determined not to exaggerate the picture. We know that during the coming winter if weather conditions are favourable the farmers and their stock may survive reasonably well. But, if it should happen that weather conditions are very unfavourable, as they were in the winter of 1946-47, then I can say without exaggeration that unless something is done by the State in co-operation with the farming community, thousands of cattle will die. We all know that in 1946-47 thousands of cattle did die. That was a tragedy both for the farming community and the State. There may have been an excuse for the Government then inasmuch as it was an unprecedented occurrence. The weather during the harvest was abnormally severe, followed by the severest winter in living memory. But, with that precedent before us, there will be no excuse for the Dáil and the Government if we do not take action to meet such an emergency. After the fatality of 1946-47 the Government did take action. They provided a considerable amount of money by way of loans free of interest. In that way they subsidised the farmer in replacing his stock. That was money well spent to a certain extent, but I do not think it is desirable that we should face a similar position this year. If we are to spend public money at all, let us spend it, not in replacing stock that have died, but in saving the stock that are still alive. That is the principle embodied in this motion.

In some areas the farmers cut their hay and lost it completely. In other areas farmers were not even able to cut the hay. In addition to that we know that there was very adverse weather during the harvest and they will not have the feeding stuffs they usually availed of, such as oaten straw which was rendered practically worthless as a feeding stuff. Everybody realises that. To-day wheaten and oaten straw has very little feeding value owing to the damage done during the harvest. That means that there is really a serious problem facing the farming community and the Department of Agriculture in keeping our stock alive during this winter if, as I say, weather conditions prove adverse. It may be asked, and the Minister is entitled to ask, what do we suggest the Government should do. In this matter we are endeavouring to be constructive and to co-operate with the Government to the best of our ability to meet the situation as well as we can.

As I have pointed out, there are in the country very considerable areas in which the hay crop has been saved and I think it is quite possible—it cannot be proved except by investigation—that there is in some areas a surplus of hay which the Department of Agriculture could purchase and hold in reserve to meet the danger of a very severe winter. The Minister might ask how could that proposition be put into practical effect. Would the Department of Agriculture purchase hay in certain areas, take it away and store it to meet the emergency? I do not think that would be necessary. I think it would be desirable to purchase but I do not think it would be necessary to remove it from the premises of the owners until it is required. If it is not required there could be an agreement with the vendor to retain the hay subject, of course, to the payment of some deposit or fee for the service he has rendered in making his fodder available. That is one suggestion.

Then, of course, I think that the Minister has announced that as far as cereals are concerned there will be adequate supplies, but I think he will agree that to use cereals for the preservation of young live stock and cows in particular on any kind of substantial scale or to use cereals as a substitute for hay would be a very expensive process and the average farmer would be unable to finance it. I think here is where it is necessary for the Minister to consider some scheme by which in relation to the price both of the hay purchased and of the cereal feeding stuffs, which might be available only in small quantities, some arrangement could be made by which the sale of those feeding stuffs to farmers who are really in need of them and who have not the financial resources to pay the high prices which they might fetch, could be subsidised. I am not going to indicate to what extent that should be done but I think there is a reasonable case for a certain State grant to meet the situation. Only to-day it has been intimated that the American Government in their generosity has made available 13,000,000 dollars to assist this country economically for the rehabilitation and improvement of the country. I do not know of any more desirable way in which a small portion of that grant could be used than in saving the lives of young stock and cows when there is a real danger that otherwise the stock might be lost completely. The next question, of course, is that in addition to such cereals which might be made available some type of credit facility would be urgently needed which would enable these farmers to purchase the feeding stuffs or to pay their portion of the price of that feeding stuff. I think that this is a very urgent and important matter.

I am not satisfied with the reply which the Minister made when this question was raised by my colleague, Deputy O'Reilly. The Minister then indicated that adequate credit facilities would be made available to the co-operative societies. As far as that is concerned it is all right provided the Minister is not going to throw the entire obligation of providing this credit on, perhaps, a small creamery society in a badly affected area. It might happen that one particular area might be very seriously affected and the creamery society in that area could hardly be expected to have the financial resources to meet that emergency. Just as the farmer is limited as far as his capital assets are concerned, so many of our creameries are also limited. There are some very wealthy creameries I know, but it might happen that this might not be the creamery area in which this problem would arise in a serious way. I do not think that the Government should pass this burden on entirely to the shoulders of some local co-operative society. There should be co-operation and support on the part of the Government for any societies taking part in the scheme. But then again there are quite large areas in the country which would, I think be seriously affected by this problem, and in which there are no co-operative societies whatever. I think that is true of a considerable portion of the country, and I would like to know what machinery the Minister would set up to deal with that problem. It is not a matter which can be put on the long finger but one which must be dealt with forthwith, and I can suggest that as far as the farming community and the rural community generally are concerned they will co-operate actively with the Department in any serious effort that is made to solve this problem, but they have got to have the backing and support of the Minister and the Department. I think, Sir, that this is a problem which we hope will never again arise in this country. I think that the lesson that has been learned this year in regard to the difficulties of saving the hay will be regarded as a final lesson, and that from now on there will be a rapid advance in the making of ensilage on practically all farms, and particularly on those farms where hay is very difficult to save, farms where the land is low-lying and wet and on the hilly farms where farmers concentrate on pasture. In these areas it is hoped an intensive drive will be made and perhaps the Minister might consider wedding any scheme of assistance to the farmers in these areas with a scheme for promoting the making of ensilage.

Whatever is done, I hope there will be an intensive drive to get away from the making of hay and to get on to the making of ensilage. In that way we can hope that we are dealing now with a problem which will not arise again in future. For that reason I think we should ask the Government not to hesitate to expend the relatively small sum of public money which is involved in meeting this problem. It think it is an expenditure which would be amply justified. It will not, I think, involve any great expenditure in my own constituency because the number of farmers affected in that constituency would not be very large. I think, however, that there are substantial areas throughout the country in which serious loss would be incurred which could be avoided by taking the action I have suggested. I am quite confident that the Minister will accept this motion in the spirit in which it is offered. He may perhaps have some ideas for meeting this problem other than those suggested by Deputy Ben Maguire or myself. The Minister did indicate last week that he was in consultation with Mr. O'Reilly, Father Coyne and Dr. Kennedy, and I am quite sure that as a result of these consultations some feasible plan may be evolved. Whatever is done has got to be done quickly, for the reason that the weather may be very severe in the near future. It should also be done quickly in order to obviate the necessity of struggling small farmers selling off their stocks at ridiculously low prices.

Any Minister for Agriculture, called on to deal with a motion in these terms, must, if he is conscious of his duty, accept it, of course. What is the Department of Agriculture for but perennially to take immediate and adequate steps to deal with any situation relating to the agricultural industry? It is, of course, true that we have had a very inclement summer. It is, of course, true that great quantities of hay have been lost altogether, but something that may be easily overlooked is that a large part of the hay that has been gathered into barns has very little feeding value.

As I have told the House repeatedly, these considerations have been constantly present to my mind since last September. The entire inspectorate of my Department has had these matters under review every day of every week since last September and I have already indicated to this House the correspondence that I have had with the Cavan County Committee of Agriculture, going very fully into the dangers that we foresaw as a result of the inclement summer, and emphasising the necessity for the most energetic measures on everybody's part to help in averting unfortunate consequences. We urged on the Cavan County Committee of Agriculture not to be backward in approaching the Department and calling on it for any help in the matter or in putting forward to me any suggestions they thought advantageous. Deputy Maguire—I do not think he will mind my mentioning it —spent some considerable time in my office yesterday discussing this problem, more especially as it affected areas in County Leitrim. I was very much obliged to him for such advice as he offered in connection with the particular area with which he is familiar on the Cavan-Leitrim border and other districts in that county. I do not know whether or not I impressed Deputy Maguire with the readiness of my Department to meet every contingency that common prudence would induce one to foresee. I hope I did; I certainly tried. I am a little disappointed, though, firstly, to find that such distinguished Deputies should think it necessary to exhort me to further and better efforts. I thought the principal complaint against me was that I did too much. But having taken that step I could not refrain from anticipating eagerly Deputy Cogan's advice as to what I should do. I sharpened my pencil and I wrote it down. He wants me to buy hay on the instalment plan.

He did not mention chaff.

He says that cereals, he knows, are here in abundance but that they would be very expensive. They would not be half as expensive as peripatetic hay.

Is that upland hay?

No, peripatetic hay. I read with astonished amazement of the authorities in Northern Ireland announcing their intention of moving shiploads of hay across the North Sea. Well, if the farmers above in Grangegorman or down in Ballinasloe announced they were bringing airship loads of hay to this country, I would read of it with sympathy, but how any rational being, desiring in an emergency to provide vitally necessary food to carry live stock over a critical period of scarcity which may not extend beyond three months, should elect to open the hold of a ship and tramp hay into the hold, presumably having filled the keel with ballast in order to prevent the ship turning turtle, is a mystery to me. But if they want to go daft in Northern Ireland, please God we will not go daft here and we will not lose, please God, a single beast from hunger or distress.

Deputy Cogan then goes on to say that we should subsidise cereals. Why do we always want to make beggarmen of our own neighbours? I was reared amongst ten-acre farms. My grandfather's father was evicted out of his farm and he came into the town of Ballaghaderreen and his wife made-dip candles and hung them in the shop window and out of that they built up the family again and they never looked to anybody for charity. Neither did their neighbours. Why do we always want to represent our own people on the land as having their hands out in every contingency to get something for nothing? I entirely agree that in times of stress and difficulty credit may be necessary to carry people over a difficult time until they can realise their stock and pay their debt and use the profit to restock their land.

We jumped at charity to-day to the extent of £10,000,000.

Let us not discuss that in connection with this particular transaction.

It is national charity.

I would prefer to discuss that with the Deputy on another occasion.

It is national charity.

I am not going to be drawn into a discussion of that now.

Give some of that to the farmers.

Our job as a Government, as I see it, is effectively to provide that no self-respecting farmer in this country will lose a single beast this winter for lack of fodder because he had not the money to pay cash down for it and, so far as this Government is concerned, no single self-respecting farmer in Ireland need see a single beast hungry on his holding this winter for the want of fodder or the want of money, always provided that if he has to undertake a debt he intends to repay it when he can. But, if there are any chancers in this country who think they can climb up the sleeve of this Government to get something for nothing because it is a difficult time, let them think again.

There are some bleeding hearts in this establishment who are very fond of bleeding over their neighbours with somebody else's blood and they will be up before this night is over to say that they are shocked and grieved to hear such language used about the hard-working farmers in rural Ireland. There are hard-working farmers in rural Ireland, thanks be to God—99 per cent. of them. If they were not, they would have died of starvation long ago. But there are about 1 per cent. of them and they are on the trot wherever there is something to be got for nothing, except work, and the sight of that puts them trotting in the other direction. They had better start trotting now.

So far as I am concerned, they are going to get nothing out of this. Those who want to work, those who want to support their own families and to hold their heads high, I want them to know that the Minister for Agriculture and every officer in my Department are proud to be their servants. We want them to tell us how we can serve them now. We want them to know now the plans we have already made to serve them on their own holdings if they will send for us. If there is any defect or shortcoming in these plans, we want to know it so that we may repair it in order that we may serve them more effectively.

What then have we done? We will be reading of the chairman of the Central Bank having literary fits about the imports that are breaking his heart. Let him make up his mind to this: so long as our people require it, the wealth of this country will be used to bring imports and, if he does not like it, he can lump it. That is what wealth is for and we intend to use it.

The imports this month are £16,000,000 sterling, and we are well able to pay for them. The imports for the first nine months of this year in respect of cereals are up from 8,000,000 to 13,500,000. The imports of maize for the month of October are more than five times as great as they were in October last year.

Is the Minister talking about value or quantity?

Both. I did not know I had another chairman of the Central Bank on my left hand. It is the chief accountant I have now. The total imports of cereals of all kinds for this month are six times as big as they were in the same month last year. There is enough animal feeding stuff in this country and afloat, at present rates of consumption, to last until 30th May. Double the consumption and they will last till March. Quadruple it and it will last until February. We can buy as much more or twice as much more, if they are necessary. There never were more cereals stored in Ireland since Brian Boro fell on the battlefield of Clontarf.

He did not actually fall on the battlefield.

It was not on you he fell, in any case. The only limit to the quantity of cereals at present stored in this country is the storage that those fellows did not build and if there is a grain ship paying demurrage in the Liffey before very long, do not blame me but the gentlemen who were bawling "Grow More Wheat" for 15 years but did not build anywhere to put it. After this year, please God, we will have storage and drying accommodation in every county in Ireland and when a man grows grain, whatever it is, he will not have to go with his hat in his hand to a miller to beg him to oblige him, for God's sake to dry it for him. I cannot build storage in ten minutes. I took over the Royal Dublin Society. There is grain stored there and everywhere else it can be put. Was I better employed in filling those stores with grain or with Scandinavian hay?

There is no use having grain in the Royal Dublin Society or anywhere else if there is no means of bridging the gap between the man who has live stock but no hay and the grain he requires to replace the hay that is lost. It is not in the last ten minutes or the last week that that problem has concerned me. There is not a farmer in this country who has not access to all the grain he wants by the machinery now provided, provided because I did not want the tangler to frighten small farmers into bringing out their cattle and throwing them away when I saw the same tangler bringing them up to the Dublin market and making a fat profit on them. I give the tanglers in cattle the same notice as I gave the tanglers in pigs. There will be no more tangling in pigs if I am any judge.

There will be rustling instead.

The Deputy ought to know all about it. Those who purchased them got paid for them and that is what a tangler never meant to do. Tanglers will buy no more cheap cattle in rural Ireland if the people depend on me. I did as Deputy Cogan says; I had recourse to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society, to which I had every reason to have recourse with confidence; instead of sitting down and weeping by the waters of Babylon for the small creamery society in the poor district, I sat down with the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society and suggested to them that if the co-operative movement was designed to bring individual farmers together into societies to co-operate, was there anything foreign to that spirit in asking a group of societies to come together to co-operate with one another and, if there was a poor society in a poor district catering for poor people, would not the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society go out and ask 15 or 20 neighbouring societies to join hands with them and say jointly: "We will go bail for £10,000 and let these 20 societies give credit where credit is necessary to such of their members as want fodder for their cattle and cannot buy it out of their own resources, and let them pay it back out of their milk cheques in the ensuing year or years." So far as groups of co-operative societies undertake that task, let them go to the Agricultural Credit Corporation and the sky is the limit. There is no shortage of credit for honest men in this country, none whatever.

What interest will they pay for it?

The Deputy will not wish me to join him in a canter through St. Thomas Aquinas at this hour. Probably the Deputy knows if we went cantering we would probably go cantering in the same direction. But, as I said on another occasion, Deputy Hickey and I may have views on credit reform but it is not at the moment that you want to deal with an urgent and awkward situation that you ought to get scrupulous about credit reform. I use the weapons that are ready to my hands, good, bad or indifferent, and when the job is done Deputy Hickey and I can get to work on that subject and see if I can make it a more flaming sword than it at present is; but, bright or rusty, it is the only sword I have got at the moment and it will be in the next three months I shall have to use it.

But that is not all. There are areas in the congested districts where the co-operative movement is not strong. I felt the need for some considerable time, and I am glad to be able on this occasion to make an announcement which I do not deny is pretty near my heart. I adumbrated twelve months ago a parish plan for reasons on which I need not dwell to-night. My plans went agley. The parish plan emerged from the encounter with its head bloody, but unbowed. I am going to start the parish plan next month in every parish in Leitrim, Donegal, Sligo, Mayo, Galway, Clare, Kerry, and in every area comprised in the congested districts of Western Ireland.

Including Cavan?

West Cavan.

Leix-Offaly?

Nice congests in Leix-Offaly.

But there are parishes.

And there ought to be prams. In every three parishes in those counties there will be a parish agent responsible for the welfare, in so far as they invite him to be responsible, of the farmers of approximately 1,000 holdings, a man whose career in the public service and whose esteem in the eyes of his fellowmen will be measured by the success that tends his efforts in helping the neighbours amongst whom he lives to get out of their holding a decent livelihood for themselves and their families, leaving these holdings in autumn a little better than they found them in spring. Where there is no co-operative movement to bridge the difficulty of finding credit where credit is required, I look to Muintir na Tire to provide a parish council so that neighbours in a parish joined together can by their joint strength carry any weak one amongst them during a period of difficulty or stress.

Is it not an impertinence to suggest that we in Oireachtas Éireann should intrude ourselves unbidden between a farmer and his neighbours if the natural social unit of rural Ireland is functioning adequately to meet whatme ever emergency is abroad? Is it not natural that, when that natural social unit functions, if its reserves prove inadequate or unequal to the strain, it should look further for assistance for the purpose of doing the work that a natural social pattern charges it to do? I tell them now, anywhere in Ireland, that a parish council trying to discharge that duty by its people will not look in vain to the Department of Agriculture for help and guidance in undertaking that responsibility. It is not my job and I do not want to usurp it or to undertake the regulation of the life and circumstances of every individual throughout this country. It is the job of the Department of Agriculture to be there, ready, waiting and eager and equipped to go to the help of those who send for it—but it is the job of neighbours to help their neighbours and the less my Department is applied to on behalf of individuals the better it will be for the individuals and the parish to which they belong. But if there are any individuals who have not got neighbours——

What about the Catechism?

——they are entitled to come, and it is not lessons in Catechism they will get. It is right and natural, perhaps, in the circumstances of difficulty that they foresee, that Deputies should look for express reassurance that the magnitude of certain of the difficulties of certain districts is fully appreciated in the Department and by the Minister responsible for them. I am not going to deal in hyperbole on that point but I fancy most of them realise that the measure of these problems is only too well known to me.

I want Deputies in this House to help me in two urgent tasks. The first is the frustration of tanglers. The perpetual reiteration that the price of cattle is collapsing can reap havoc amongst the poorest of our people. There is no prospect or remote danger of the price of cattle collapsing. The price of cattle is steadily strengthening and will continue to do so. Deputies have speculated in their minds as to the trend of capital prices. I have an inspector, drawn from the local people, in every cattle fair in Ireland, reporting to me every day on the prices being paid in every fair, large and small, throughout the country. I want to give the House comparative figures for the types of cattle about which certain Deputies have expressed apprehension —particularly Deputy B. Maguire of Leitrim—the yearling, the store beast from 12 to 15 months. In September, 1949, they were making £23 in County Roscommon: in September, 1950, they were making £24. In November, 1949, they were making £21: in November, 1950, they were making £25. In County Cavan, in September, 1949, they were making £18 and they were making the same money in September, 1950. In November, 1949, they are returned as making £18 and they made £16 this year. But the 15 months to two-year-old beast in County Cavan is returned as making £25 in September, 1949, and £25 in September, 1950. In October, 1949, they were returned as making £22 and they were making the same money in October, 1950. In November, 1949, they were making £22 and they are reported as making the same money in November, 1950. Stronger cattle are even a little better.

I come now to Wicklow. The 15 months to two-year-old beast was making £25 in September, 1949, and £28 10s. in September, 1950. In October, 1950, they were making £23 15s., but I have not got a figure for 1949. In November, 1950, they are making £24 10s., but I have not got a figure for November, 1949.

Has the Minister got figures relating to the prevailing prices in County Leitrim for sixmonths-old cattle?

In Longford, calves six to nine months were making £11 in September, 1949, and in September, 1950, they were making £10 10s. In November, 1949, they were making £12 and in November, 1950, £9 10s. Six to nine-months-old——

Has the Minister any returns as to the number of calves of that age on offer at the fairs and the number unsold?

I am sorry, Deputy. Rich as is my statistical material, it does not quite reach that far. I have an interesting statistic for the Deputy but, before I leave the six to nine months old, let me say a word for Cavan. In September, 1949, the price was £9 and it was the same for September, 1950. In November, 1949, the price was £8; in November, 1950, the price was £8 10s.

I am not concerned to prove that anybody is wrong. All I am concerned about is to put on record that any fluctuation there is, is in no sense dramatic or indicative of any urgency or any tendency for cattle to be thrown on the market. I am merely asking Deputies to tell their neighbours not to bring out their cattle and sell them to a tangler.

Mr. Maguire

Will the Minister make an inquiry in regard to the statement I made here some weeks ago, drawing his attention to the fact that in Manorhamilton four cows due for calving next spring were sold for £36?

I did not have to, because a neighbour of my own—let me give you his initials, A.C.—came into Ballaghaderreen and sold two cows, due to calve in March or April, for £23— but he was daft ten years ago and he is daft now. Yet he is a decent man and I was sorry to see him defrauded.

Mr. Maguire

Is the Minister taking these prices into his average of the figures he has given us?

I know the Deputy is as anxious as I am to protect small farmers, amongst whom both he and I live, and I am trying to bring forward facts to reassure them that no matter what anyone tells them, they should not sell their cattle cheap, because if they hold them they will get their value.

Mr. Maguire

Provide them with the means of feeding them and they will hold them.

I will provide them with, not only the means but the feeding, if they want it. That is what I am trying to tell them. But let me produce this reassuring suggestion. Deputy O'Reilly is perpetually telling me that we will all be living on two ounces of butter or a quarter of margarine, as all the cows in the country will be swept away.

Will the Minister give the reference for that?

For that poetic expression, I was gilding the lily of the Deputy's eloquence.

Will the Minister give the reference? I fear he cannot.

If we are threatened with a general exodus of milch cows as a result of impending famine, where would they go? What market must they pass through? I would expect to see the stalls of the Dublin market swamped. Remember it is not the case of old and uneconomic cows being disposed of in the ordinary course of trade. The picture was one of cows in the full flower of their youth, marching off in battalions to their untimely death.

Nero is not in with you.

On the 1st November, 1949, there were 415 milch cows sold in the Dublin market; this year there were 202. On the 9th November last year there were 338, and this year 245; on the 16th there were 351 last year, and this year 254; on the 23rd last year there were 308, and this year 245; on the 30th November last year there were 270 and this year—on the Wednesday of this week—there were 139. I am not trying to confound or look down on anybody in the House. What I am trying to do is to arm all those who share my anxiety, lest hard-working small farmers be bluffed or defrauded into throwing stock away, with statistical material to reassure them that there is not the slightest need, that if they hold them to the normal time the price will be good, the demand will be strong, and there is no possibility of a situation arising in which our cattle will die or even be injured.

Will the cows be able to digest that?

Mr. Maguire

Will the empty haggard not have an impression on the feeding stuff position?

None that the Deputy, armed with my information, cannot overcome; and that is what I am asking him to do. But do I leave a doubt in the mind of Deputy Maguire or anybody else, that all the resources of the Department of Agriculture are deployed and will remain deployed to help him?

Mr. Maguire

Will the Minister state what resources he has to provide feeding stuffs for the stock for which there is no feeding stuffs in certain areas? I am accepting everything he says sincerely but up to the present there is no indication of his doing that.

What does the Deputy want done? Anywhere feeding stuffs are wanted, I undertake to see that they will be delivered there. Any man that has not credit if his neighbours in the parish or if his fellow suppliers through the co-operative society are not prepared to make the slightest effort, I will succour them and will support them. But I will not go down and push unwanted interference on the farm. The natural social unit that ought to help is the organised neighbour, the co-operative society; but I will provide in every area, permanently resident, a parish agent. We do not want someone to go and knock at his door.

Mr. Maguire

I do not want to disturb the Minister, as he has just made a statement which was very generous and showed a depth of feeling and understanding of the position. However, if he has a proposition that the people are to believe in, he must provide a new organisation of some sort. I suggest to him that in the absence of that organisation and in the pressing need, he should give an indication of direct action which can be taken at the moment.

That organisation will function before this day fortnight.

Is the Minister depending on the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society to deal with the congested districts?

I suspect that the Deputy has only come in, half-way through. I have been explaining to the House for some time past this parish plan, that the parish agent in every three parishes resident amongst the people, is waiting, eager and anxious for them to come to him and ask him to help. What more can this or any other Government in its propriety do? There is one thing that, so long as I am Minister for Agriculture, they will not do, that is, go down with a universal hand-out, or something for nothing. In so far as the boys who want something for nothing are concerned, in the poetic words of Deputy Allen, they can sit on their sash. Any one who wants assistance, it does not matter how poor he is, how humble he is, he has as much claim on me in this Department as the biggest farmer in Ireland.

Did the Minister have any difficulty in getting this parish agent?

No, we had not.

I take it that he is a local farmer.

He has been known to those who live in the congested districts of Ireland by the honoured title of agricultural overseer or assistant agricultural overseer, the most anonymous, the most hardworking and the most highly honoured body of public servants in the employ of my Department. I am happy to be able to say that 46 years too late they are going to be established civil servants on a proper scale of pay with full pension rights and the status 46 years overdue.

They will all be appointed in a fortnight?

They are there now.

One for every three parishes?

Yes. Does that amaze the Deputy? He thinks himself a ball of fire when he is really only something else.

I asked the Minister whether these parish agents were to be appointed for every three parishes in a fortnight.

They are already there. I wonder am I in the presence of eager solicitude to witness the success of my efforts or of a disappointed hope in Deputy Cogan that I am going to tread on a banana peel.

Could I ask the Minister a question?

Why of course.

Will this scheme apply in every area where there is a co-operative society, in every area where there is a guild of Muintir na Tíre?

I recited the counties.

What about the other counties?

What about the motion?

The motion calls on the Department to do all that needs to be done.

Dillon is there to do it.

Have I not outlined a pretty good programme? Has the resourceful Deputy Allen no better contribution to make to the discussion than rubbing the top of his head?

He is in better form to-night than ever.

It is improving he is.

You can be assured that in all ordinary circumstances no serious catastrophe need be contemplated. I think you are satisfied now. I cannot provide against blizzard and tornado. Deputy Cogan said that we should be warned by the events of the Spring of 1947. If there are 14 feet of snow on a country road I cannot get down the country road until I dig away the snow and if there is any way anyone can tell me to do it——

Could you not melt it?

I remember discussing that with Deputy McGrath's leader on one occasion. His solution was to take to a horse, but himself and the horse were sunk before they had gone very far, and they had to send out the Army to dig him out. Subject to catastrophe of that kind, against which nobody can provide, we must do as we did in 1947, when the local people put their shoulders to the wheel from one end of the snowdrift and the State put its shoulder to the wheel from the other end and they dug both towards the other and they got there. I cannot stop the snow and I cannot still the wind, and I do not want Deputy Cogan to proclaim hereafter that I undertook to do so, but short of prodigies of that order I have told the House quite frankly what we plan to do.

If the scheme is defective, if there is any suggestion anyone can make which they think will make it better, I do not think that any Deputy of this House has ever been turned from my door or indeed from the door of any officer of my Department. We, I and they, will be deeply grateful to any Deputy who can propose any solution which is practicable for any problem which we appear to have overlooked. I like to think that we have overlooked nothing, but I may be wrong. I like to think that our joint solicitude in the Department proves us worthy of our jobs, but I may be wrong, and I do not want any individual small farmer in this country to suffer as a result of my illusion.

Would the Minister consider this little difficulty? Will credit be provided in cash for the farmer so that he can buy what he wants anywhere he likes or will supplies be made available for him paid for by somebody else?

I think I made it clear that, so far as co-operative societies are available, I delegate that task to them. In so far as a parish council intervenes, I am quite prepared to adapt my practice to their resources. It seems to me that the very essence of trying to operate on the basis of parish councils is to do your best to make your practice conform to the way they want to do it. I cannot undertake in advance to accept any proposal they put to me, but provided they put a proposal consistent with prudence and sponsored by rational reasonable men, not rich men, but reasonable, rational, well-intentioned men, my desire is not to impose on them some cut and dried scheme. I have but to look at their scheme, and if it will work, to try to adapt my resources to it.

The difficulty is that there will be a certain delay if schemes have to be submitted.

I do not think that anyone has accused the Department of Agriculture of dealing in red tape.

That is one of the dangers.

Certainly there are those who complain, perhaps with justice, that on occasions the Gordian knot is cut even before it has been tied. I can only do my best. The Deputy may rest assured that none of us in the Department of Agriculture is greatly enamoured of the stately progress of bureaucracy. In fact we have quite the reputation of being rough and ready ignorant clodhoppers in some of the more Olympian quarters of the Civil Service. It is a title which coming from that source we cherish.

I felt it was so important that the House should know how fully the situation was appreciated by myself who am primarily responsible and by the experienced officers of my Department who will in fact have to do the work that I have trespassed perhaps too long upon the House's patience. If I have I regret it, but I trust that I have given Deputies all the information that they wanted and I trust they are reassured as to the future, and I beg of them individually and collectively to help me to reassure our neighbours and to create a situation all over Ireland calculated to break the tangler's neck.

Mr. Smith rose.

As one of those in whose names this motion has been tabled, I suggest I am entitled to an opportunity to speak.

The Deputy will get the same opportunity as every other Deputy.

Should not the Deputies whose names are appended to the motion get a chance to speak?

That does not secure any preference in speaking in the House.

Some four or five weeks ago, I received a copy of a resolution passed by the committee of management of a very large co-operative society in my county in connection with this subject. I believe that the motion we are now discussing largely originated from that resolution. I replied to that resolution, and my reply was largely on these lines—that we had had a bad summer and that quite a lot of hay had been lost as a result, and I asked what there was that the Minister or the Department could do about it. I mentioned, too, the fact that we had a certain area under grain crops, that there was nothing the Minister could do to enlarge the area, and nothing the Minister could do to assist in saving that crop.

I well appreciated the position inasmuch as it affected the constituency I represent, a constituency which is amongst the worst in the Twenty-six Counties, and I was really anxious to know what it was the Government, the Minister or the Department could do to assist in solving what anyone looking at it would regard as a very serious problem. I asked if they would agree to the importation of fodder. The Minister has referred to the fact that fodder is being imported into the Six Counties, and has seen fit to express his opinion on the wisdom of that policy. I do not know whether that is a wise or a foolish policy, but I am prepared to admit that our Six County neighbours are fairly shrewd people, and, because I have not got the facts on which their decision to import fodder was based, I am not prepared to go further than saying that, because they had made that decision, they must have some reason for it. I was, however, anxious to ask the Minister a question that has not yet been asked and with which he did not deal in his rather long speech. Suppose he is wise in the conclusion at which he has arrived that the importation of fodder is a foolish policy, what has the Minister to say with regard to the exportation of fodder from this State?

It is not allowed.

My information is that fodder is being exported from this State under licence.

That is not true, except where farmers have land across the Border. They may then bring hay from one side to the other, but they are not allowed to export for sale.

I am not prepared to dispute the information which has been conveyed across the floor to me, but I want to say that, so far as my information is concerned, it does not seem to tally with the information which I have got. If the Minister has decided that the policy of importation is foolish, I certainly recommend that he be careful to take steps to ensure that not only will fodder not be exported under licence but that it will not be exported without a licence at all.

I was anxious to speak before the Minister because, I suppose for the first time. I wished to indicate to the House that I personally had a good deal of sympathy with the Minister in the position in which he now finds himself. I was Minister in 1947, a year which has been referred to. I was not very long in office, and most Deputies will remember the sort of year that was. I was called upon to come forward here and discuss a motion tabled by the then Opposition, which, by the way, happens to be the major element in the present Government, fairly late in the Spring, when very little ploughing had been done and when it was not a question, important as it is, of feeding our live stock but a matter of our capacity in the years that followed to feed human beings. I could not thaw the snow on the ground, or keep the ploughs going. Tractors, although we had some, were unprocurable.

They were few and far between.

Why they were unprocurable is understandable. I was called upon to come forward here and tell the House and the country what were the prospects and what were the plans and so on for dealing with the situation confronting us, and perhaps it is because of my experience on that occasion that I found myself in some difficulty to understand the motion we have before us, just as I found myself in a difficulty in understanding the resolution from the committee of management of the co-operative society in my own county. The terms of the motion obviously must be accepted by any Government or any Minister with the slightest appreciation of the importance of the matter to which it refers.

There are some few points which the Minister put forward with which I cannot find myself in agreement. For example, there may not be any doubt in the minds of many of us that, after three or four months, cattle prices will again gather strength and, to the extent that they have fallen, will recover themselves. I am not disputing the wisdom or the accuracy of that forecast, but it is the height of nonsense for any man, whether he be a Minister for Agriculture or not, to come to this House, or outside of it, and tell me that in the month of September or October, when the land is drenched with water——

There is the land project.

Land project be damned.

A penny post card will bring it to you.

I sent the Minister a halfpenny post card twelve months ago and that was the last I heard of it.

I will have that examined.

I do not send the Minister too many cards, especially Christmas ones. While I sympathise with the difficulties of the present situation, and understand that farmers will have losses against which they cannot be guaranteed by anybody, I have been trying to explain that it is foolish for any man, whether he be a Minister or otherwise, to tell a farmer who happens to find himself carrying a very heavy stock in the early part of the year—a man whose land is naturally wet and who has had the experience that we all have had during the wet summer we have passed through, a man who has lost a quantity of his hay—to hold on to his stock. Undoubtedly, he will try and hold on to as much of his stock as he can. The point that I want to make is that it is the greatest nonsense and the most aggravating thing in the world for a Minister or for a Deputy or anybody else to lecture that man as to the amount of stock he should carry or as to the capacity of his holding to carry stock having regard to the amount of fodder which he has saved.

It so happens that at the present time, a number of the Minister's personal friends in his own constituency, are engaged in the purchase of very small stock which, in a normal year, would be carried over as stores, and which are being purchased for immediate slaughter at bad prices. Perhaps the prices that are being paid are as high as the circumstances of the times will allow. Those men have purchased some stock of that type from myself, and I was very glad to have them as customers. What is the use then of any man standing up here and starting off by lecturing us as to what we should do in that regard, as to the futility or foolishness of disposing of our stock when we know that we must sell them. Those men are very glad to purchase them, for the particular trade in which they are engaged, even though the cattle are in the condition which I have described. I am not blaming anyone for that situation, the Minister or the Department of Agriculture. I do not expect wonders from the Department, the Minister or the Government, but listening to the Minister on this motion I understand when he is talking sense and when he is talking nonsense.

We had an assurance to-night that money will be made available through a number of sources which were mentioned. Is it not a strange thing, however, that after the winter of 1947, I introduced a scheme, with the consent and approval of the Government, to make available interest free loans to farmers who had suffered losses as a result of the severe conditions that we all remember during that winter? It was only a fortnight ago that I had a letter from a farmer who had paid all his instalments to date on the £100 which he secured under that scheme. He wrote telling me that he had two, three or four small cattle. His letter seemed to me to be a very genuine one. The complaint he made was that he had written to the Department of Agriculture, and was then referred to the Agricultural Credit Corporation. He told me that when he wrote to the latter body he was informed that the scheme was one which had been designed by the Minister, and that the terms of it could only be changed or altered by the Minister. He seems to me to be a very genuine person, but, convincing and all as his case seemed to be, it would appear as if he were going to be referred from Billy to Jack, and not get the satisfaction to which I think he is entitled. When that scheme was first introduced, I had in mind genuine people of his type. They were the people I was anxious to see availing of it. I felt that they might not be able to pay their instalments punctually because, as we can all understand, they would not be likely to be very flush with cash. We all know how things will happen to a farmer which, so to speak, will knock him off his path. That can happen to people with the very best intentions. They have to contend against such things as a bad summer, a bad harvest or a fall in the prices of young stock. Anything of that kind may make a man feel that he will not be able to meet his instalment in the month of January. I cannot recall from memory how many farmers took advantage of that scheme. This is the only case that I have heard of so far. There may be, or there may not be, others. I suggest, if money is now going to be made freely available, that in the case of farmers who took advantage of that scheme and have met with difficulties as a result of the bad summer we have had, they should be met in some way and helped out of their difficulties.

What is the difficulty?

That his next instalment will be due in the month of January. The reason why I have been so much impressed by the genuineness of this case is that, while the instalment is not due until January, this man wrote to me about it last month. That would seem to indicate to me that he is very anxious to be able to pay his instalment. He strikes me as being a very fine type of man. This is the case of a man who, in anticipation of his inability to pay his instalment in January next, was writing to me last month, having failed to induce the Department or the Agricultural Credit Corporation to extend the time limit for repayment under a scheme which was initiated following the disastrous winter and spring of 1947.

Does the Deputy happen to recollect the amount of the instalment?

It was between £20 and £30. It was due, I think, about next January. I merely mention that case to indicate that, if money is now available in such quantities to help those who want to purchase feeding stuffs, here is a case that should be met. No doubt there will be other such cases.

By the postponement of the instalment?

Did you make representations?

Having read the correspondence I decided to go to the Credit Corporation. They put up a proposition which seemed to be reasonable from their point of view but which was not reasonable in one sense. When the scheme was introduced I expected cases of that type would arise. During my time in the Department when schemes were introduced for that section of the farming community who could not very well get security, I found that in 99 per cent. of the cases, although they might be late in paying, ultimately they paid. I do not want to boast about the class to which most of us belong, but I think it would not be untrue to say that you will get amongst the farming community a great percentage of honesty so far as meeting their liabilities is concerned.

I understand the point of view expressed by Deputy Flynn. I am not one of those whose name was attached to this motion. As I have tried to indicate, I could not see the need for it, because I would have taken it for granted that any Government worth its salt would make an effort to help the farmers in this very trying time. When the farmers of Killeshandra approached Deputy O'Reilly and myself and suggested that the milk producing areas should have a preference, and when I got further correspondence suggesting that a preference should be granted in other cases, I could see the impossibility from the point of the Department of intervening in that regard. So far as the fodder situation is concerned, a matter about which I feel very keenly is that there are farmers who are disposing of their cattle, in some cases at a bad price, in the hope of receiving for their hay— those of them who have been fortunate enough to save it very well—a price that will compensate them for the loss which they have sustained in selling their cattle at what we would regard as a small price, and getting an additional benefit over and above what they would receive if they fed the cattle to the end of the season.

That could be sound economics if they had a special buyer for hay.

It could be sound economics, but I would have my doubts about it. There is a great danger however, especially having regard to my proximity to another area which the Minister knows. I have a feeling that we should at least watch over what we have. I am not suggesting that the Minister could but in and buy hay in one area and transfer it to another, but at least we should try to hold what we have saved reasonably well and it will ultimately, I suppose, find a market from one district to another. Let us hope that the situation, which is certainly bad in some areas, will not have disastrous results. If the present weather conditions continue the dangers to which farmers felt they were exposed earlier may not arise.

While there is every reason why the Minister and Deputies should encourage farmers to keep up their hearts, there is no use in our pretending that by the establishment of parish councils or the appointment of parish officers we are going to relieve the farmers of the losses that undoubtedly they will suffer as result of the unfavourable conditions which they have experienced for the last six or eight months. If we expect to make an impression on the farmers' mind, it would be far better for us to show some appreciation of what is the real position. Whether he has two or three or 10 or 20 cows, the farmer is a fairly shrewd man. There is no use in our trying to lecture farmers and tell them that they should hold on to stock which they know it will be better for them to sell now even at a bad price when there is some market for them rather than let them wither away on the land, as most of them have a fair idea as to what is the best thing to do in their own interest. If the Minister can add anything to the knowledge that the farmer has as to how his business should be transacted or add to the amount of material available so that he can successfully maintain the largest number of stock that is possible for him, he will be making a far greater contribution than by talking the sort of nonsense to which we have listened in some parts of the speech just made by the Minister.

As I had occasion just a week ago to deal fairly extensively with the conditions which have led to the present motion, I have no need to add to what I said on that occasion. I tried to put tangible evidence before the Minister and the House of the serious situation that confronts the live stock industry of the country owing to the unfavourable summer. I did not ask the Minister to accept my own word for it. I quoted figures as to the reduction in milk supplies to a very extensive creamery in order to show that already serious consequences were overtaking the country. I do not appear to have impressed the Minister on that occasion, although he spoke in eloquent terms of his intimate knowledge of the situation and the dangers of it, with the result that other Deputies, being dissatisfied, arranged the motion we are now discussing and asked me if I were prepared to support it, which I did. The reason I was anxious to intervene at all on this discussion was to reply to some points made by the Minister in his reply to me on the Adjournment Debate on this night week. In portion of his reply on that occasion at column 1033 of Official Report of 16th November, 1950, the Minister said:—

"The farmers of this country, and I am sure Deputy O'Reilly will agree with me, are not now, and never were beggarmen—and so long as they are able to earn their living they do not want to live on anyone else. It is no reflection on any man to require credit facilities, provided he means to pay what is due. Nobody wants to ask him to pay in a fortnight what he consumed in six months. Nobody wants to ask him to undertake a burden of repayment which will cripple his domestic finances. Nobody wants to ask him to undertake any obligation which, in the judgement of the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society, would constitute an unreasonable burden on an honest and industrious man. But if any chancer or fraud or potential beggarman thinks that out of the trials of his neighbours he can perceive an opportunity for plundering the public purse, he never made a greater mistake in his life. The chancers may make up their minds that they will get nothing for nothing: but the hard-working farmers of Cavan, Leitrim, Mayo, Meath, Westmeath and every other county in Ireland may rest assured that no beast need want in Ireland throughout this winter because credit or fodder is available to anyone who is prepared to work and who intends to pay."

Further down, in column 1034, the Minster said:

"I have no desire to constitute myself a Pooh Bah in every parish in this country. I feel confident that the agricultural community of this country will be able to provide the machinery to protect themselves, but if the chancers are hoping to get up my sleeve they may start going down now because they will never get up past my elbow."

To an ordinary individual like myself, the inference to be drawn from that was that Deputies who drew attention to this serious situation on behalf of the people who made representations to them—that is, to Deputy Maguire and myself—were the mouthpiece of chancers, beggarmen and frauds. I wonder if the people who, through no fault of their own, lost their hay and their crops can be described as chancers and potential beggarmen.

Here is the bleeding heart now.

I would not like to be the individual who would tell these people that they were beggarmen or chancers. I refuse to believe that they cannot be classed as the hard-working, industrious farmers the Minister described, and I think I had better leave it to the Minister either to antagonise or placate these people who have suffered.

I gave the bleeding heart a chance to bleed.

I think that nobody can say since I entered this House that I ever advocated something for nothing for the farmers. If I did so, I shall be glad if anyone will quote my words and give me the reference. I asked for a quotation of my words and the reference from the Minister and I did not get it on another matter to-night. If I ever made such a suggestion, I must have been under a hypnotic influence because I have no recollection of it.

That could be, Deputy.

I made a suggestion on the Adjournment Debate on this night week—the suggestion conveyed to the Minister and his Department from the chairman of the co-operative society in my area—that a subsidy for maize be provided to supplement the bad quality hay in my district and in the country so that the cattle would be saved from starvation and that a situation such as obtained in the spring and early summer of 1947 might not recur. I did not do that of my own volition because I have always felt that if the farming community got what I always advocated, the cost of production and a reasonable profit—let me repeat those words, a reasonable profit— they would be in a position, without seeking State aid or anything else, to provide for those bad years that are inevitable. But the fact that during my memory they have not got that and the fact that the figures which I got yesterday in reply to a parliamentary question of the relative increases in the price of agricultural produce, in the price of clothing and in the cost of living bear out what I have always maintained—that the agricultural producer, in my memory at least, has not got a reasonable share of the national wealth. Consequently, they are always in the low income group and when they meet a bad season such as 1947 and such as the present season, they are not able to meet the consequences without asking for assistance from some source, let it be a Government source or some other source. However, as I have said, that suggestion of a subsidy came from the co-operative society and I conveyed it to the House. If the present motion has awakened everyone in the State to the seriousness of the position should another bad winter come after the bad summer, it will have done a lot of good.

What is a subsidy, Deputy, but something for nothing?

I did not hear the Minister.

What is a subsidy if it is not something for nothing?

Let me assure the Minister again that I have never advocated a subsidy on any agricultural produce but I conveyed the suggestion of the chairman of the co-operative society that a subsidy be provided for maize meal to supplement the bad hay in an effort to save the cattle population.

The distinction is somewhat subtle.

Perhaps I have not the eloquence of the Minister——

Oh, faith you have. He will be trotting after you.

——to put my point over. I speak in farming language.

You speak most eloquently and most subtly.

Thank you for the compliment.

It is a pleasure.

I am glad to see that the Minister has suggested that he is prepared to make any amount of credit available through co-operative societies or parish councils, or by other means so that everyone will be in a position to purchase all the cereals they require to maintain their cattle during the winter. It may not be so very necessary if we have a mild winter, as I hope we shall, but even if the winter is mild, it is a good thing to know that credit will be available. One point I should like to make is that everyone is anxious to give credit to people who, they know, are solvent and in good standing. The shopkeeper will even force his goods on anyone he knows is well able to pay for it, especially if he sees that that individual is getting on reasonably well and is not likely to be a defaulter.

That is a rational approach.

The co-operative society in my area made credit available to its members for the past three years by the provision of fertilisers to apply to the grass lands—not for the purposes of cropping, which is a separate matter, but to be applied to grass lands with a view to increasing the milk supply to the creamery. Manures were made available in the month of October and spread on the grass lands, and the people who got the benefit of that credit were not asked to make any return until the following July and August, when the milk supply was increased and the farmers were having the benefit of it. Everyone, as I say, is anxious to give credit when they see that there is a prospect of profitable development on the part of the person to whom the credit is given, but in this particular instance there was not much prospect of such development in the case of people who lost their crops and hay. They are trying to make up the losses which they suffered, and they will have to repay the money advanced to them in two or three years, whilst the money has been used up in making good the losses they suffered last summer, so that there will be a difficulty in that case.

Not a bit.

Perhaps the eloquence of the Minister will get them over the difficulty. Let us hope that the position will not be as serious as it might be, if the winter were very severe.

How long should the credit be available—five, ten or 20 years?

I do not think it very likely that any individual or co-operative society would be prepared to go into the bank to raise an overdraft, pay interest on that, and make the money available free of interest over a period of ten or 20 years even to its own members. However, if the motion has awakened the Minister and his Department to the seriousness of the situation, it is so much gained and perhaps, if God sends a mild winter, the position might turn out much better than people fear.

The Minister made one point in connection with cattle prices when he quoted the reports of his inspectors as to prices at fairs in various counties. He gave special attention to Cavan. I suppose Cavan should be grateful for the distinction.

Of course, two great men have come from there.

He gave the figures for September and November but, by an oversight I suppose, October was not mentioned.

I shall give them to you now. The price for cattle from one to six months old in October, 1949, was £5 15s. Od. and in October, 1950, £5 per head; for cattle from six months to nine months old, the price in October, 1949, was £8 per head and in October, 1950, £8 per head; for cattle 15 months to two years old the price in October, 1949, was £22 per head and in October, 1950, £22 per head; for and for cattle for three years and over the price in October, 1949, was £40 per head and in October, 1950, it was £41 per head.

I am glad to see that October was not deliberately omitted. It is not for me to question the accuracy of these figures but, if I have any judgement at all, I fail to see where a calf from six to nine months old could be purchased in 1949 for £5 15s. Od.

From one to six months old £5 15s. Od. in October, 1949 and in October, 1950, £5.

There is no question at all that cattle from two to three years, if they are in any condition, still fetch a good price. However, if the motion has brought even a promise of credit, it is something achieved. The details, I suppose, will present difficulties, but we must expect that. We cannot expect that just overnight a perfect scheme could be made available. I hope it will run smoothly with helpful support from everyone but, for people who have lost practically half their year's income, I am afraid that credit facilities will not be sufficient.

Now we are getting down to tin-tacks.

We have had an outcry for the past few weeks by Deputies speaking on behalf of workers on the bogs to the effect that their weekly wage on the average was only about 25/- in piece work as a result of the bad weather, so that, even on the bogs, the worker's income was cut down. Naturally the farmers were also seriously affected by the bad weather, and while credit may help to keep them going, it will not give them any recoupment for the loss of their annual income.

What does the Deputy suggest?

The suggestion made by the chairman of the Co-operative Creamery.

I cannot follow that exactly. What does the Deputy suggest?

The implementation of that suggestion.

That is to ask something for nothing. That is the old tradition.

Since the Minister has quoted me as saying something for which he could not give the reference when challenged by me I do not propose to detain the House any longer.

As one who supported this motion. I accept the Minister's approach to it. We tabled the motion, not as a matter of politics, but simply as a matter of urgency. We fully realise the Minister's difficulties, and we are not asking for the moon. We are demanding that cognisance be taken of the serious position of the farmers, particularly the small mountainy farmers, of whom there are many in my constituency, and other small farmers throughout the country. They have sustained heavy losses during the harvest period, and we ask the Minister to devise ways and means whereby a scheme of real practical help can be inaugurated. I and every Deputy in the House realise the difficulties inherent in this question. I agree with the Minister's approach to it in so far as parish councils, credit societies, and other organisations of that kind are concerned, but I do not agree with his inclusion of the Agricultural Credit Corporation. My experience of these people has been a very sad one.

I shall answer for their performance in this context, Deputy.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Wednesday, 6th December, at 3 p.m.
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