The rate of expenditure on university education and the services upon which the money is being spent, naturally, would colour one's judgment in forming an opinion on the proposed expenditure. The Minister has referred to the fact that, so far as the staffs are concerned, their remuneration is below comparable standards—I take it, in great Britain and other countries. Perhaps when the Minister is replying, for the benefit of those who are not as familiar with the set-up of the university as he is, he would enlighten the House, and I would suggest that, even in connection with the present Supplementary Estimate, Deputies might like to know the numbers of staff affected and to have some idea of the remuneration of the professors, lecturers and assistants.
A very large increase in the grant for the general purposes of University College, Dublin, seems to be envisaged. That has increased, I think, by £104,000. I take it that that is connected with the big increase in the number of students. The House knows that there are about 3,000 students there and that it was originally intended that there should be provision for about 1,000. In that connection, Deputies will have views as to the value of university education by having regard to the courses which the students are following.
I wonder would it be possible for the Minister to let us know—perhaps it is not available to him at the moment, but I think it would be useful for the House and the country to know—the numbers of students in the different faculties? We have an idea of the total number, but as regards the numbers in the different faculties, that is a matter in which I think Deputies generally would be interested. I think the total expenditure on universities and colleges before the war was about £160,000, roughly, and if the Supplementary Estimate brings the expenditure up to £480,000 or £490,000, it will appear that there is a threefold increase in the expenditure. I know allowance has to be made for the new grants for Trinity College and for Maynooth College which were not there in prewar times, but one would like to know whether the increase is really proportionate to the numbers of students solely, or whether, in fact, the number of students has outgrown that increase in expenditure and that, in addition, you have the other problems which must necessarily arise from having such a huge number of students.
I think the country would be interested to know whether there are plans in contemplation for providing additional accommodation. Since the public, and, indeed, the members of the Dáil, are not in a position to assess the value of the work—and it is difficult to see what machinery could be set up to assess the value of a university, particularly one described as a national university—it is not easy for Deputies to approach a discussion of this matter in an informed way. There is really no report available, I think, of any body which would enable them to come to a conclusion upon matters affecting the university in which they would be interested.
The Minister has not told us what the demands made upon him by the university, if such demands have been made, amount to, or what the universities themselves have in contemplation. In this matter the Department of Finance has to act as broker between the taxpayer and the university, and while the Minister and his officers are very well acquainted with the position, thoroughly familiar with it, that is not the position with members of the Dáil upon whom rests the responsibility for voting this money.
In any event, I think it is generally agreed that the modern view is that a university is more or less a group of professional technical schools for the training of doctors, lawyers, engineers and teachers, and I think that is more and more the position. Formerly the idea was that the university was a centre to which people of leisure and with certain wealth were able to go and there they found what was traditionally known as a liberal education. The position is that owing to the stress of modern conditions, and for various other reasons into which we need not now enter, the pressure has been more and more upon the university to serve a more immediately practical purpose. One aspect of this question that we must keep particularly in mind is that while catering for those more immediate practical matters the fundamental question, such as the spiritual values and the traditional cultural values which we want to preserve, should not be neglected; rather should they be developed in every way possible in so far as it lies within the sphere of the university to develop them, preserve them and strengthen these bonds with the past.
I think it is generally recognised that education, in so far as we in these countries understand education, must be the custodian of the spiritual values of the past and it is all the more necessary, I think, that that should be emphasised when these values are being rejected or ignored. The atmosphere and the general influence of the staff in the university has an incalculable, imponderable influence upon the students and there has been a certain doubt whether certain of the colleges are playing the part that we would like in maintaining that sense of the historical continuity of Irish culture, and are maintaining those links with the past which we all wish should be maintained.
It used to be claimed of a university that one of its functions was to produce an élite of cultured persons who would act as a sort of leaven in the general mass and who, with their cultural background and their general training in, let us say, philosophy and such matters, would not alone raise the cultural standard and preserve and strengthen, as I have said, what we have got through our ancestors and what we in our turn hope to pass on to those who come after us, but would also mean that a certain responsibility would rest upon the university in producing leaders of opinion. We need only look at the problems of modern democracy to realise the very great responsibilities which leaders of public opinion have thrust upon them at the present time. It is obviously necessary that they should be fully equipped to undertake these responsibilities.
The secondary schools in this country have so far been the main basis or fountain of culture for the people generally. Only a certain proportion of students pass on to the universities. There their time is very largely occupied in pursuing courses which they hope will secure degrees for them in the professional schools or otherwise and enable them to earn a livelihood as quickly as possible. It is doubtful if, in the present set-up of the universities, there is sufficient time to give that attention to the cultural side which, I think, all who have studied the university question from the point of view of western culture would wish and there is no doubt that at the present time more emphasis should be placed upon these aspects of university education than ever before.
There have been doubts expressed elsewhere as to whether graduates in certain branches of science should carry very high degrees and have a specialised knowledge, have that broad foundation, that philosophical foundation one might call it, that enables them to exercise standards of judgment that would be in consonance with the specialised knowledge and the eminence that they have acquired in the technical sphere. The secondary schools have done a great amount of work for the Irish language, and many of them have acted as pioneers in the teaching of subjects through Irish from the beginning, under the previous Administration, in the campaign for the restoration of the language, and they have taken upon themselves the heavy burden of doing their entire work through Irish. That meant that their teachers had to make up the subjects—there were no textbooks available—and had to teach such subjects as classics, mathematics and history through Irish. That was away back in 1923 or 1924. One wonders if anything corresponding to the progress that has been made in secondary education has been made in the sphere of university education.
The college in Galway was specially endowed by the Government of which the Minister was then a member to give special attention to Irish. It was recognised that by virtue of its situation and its opportunities it was able to do special work for the language. I do not think, however, that it was considered that advances in the teaching of Irish, making the language a medium capable of being used in instruction in higher educational centres, should be confined to University College, Galway. I think there is a responsibility on the other constituent colleges of the National University, and I am certain that those of us interested in the Irish language—and I think few in this House are not interested—wish to see them fostering it and enabling it to be taught.
I know there are difficulties in the way, but no one would grudge further endowments to enable that to be done. I see the difficulty that a great deal of the work of the university is taken up with the professional schools. I see the difficulty of introducing Irish as a medium of instruction in these professional courses, except gradually. However, we are entitled to claim that this institution—about which, when it was established, there was such a furore on the question of compulsory Irish for its entrance examination— should make a greater advance if they accept the position which has been laid down as national policy and State policy, that it is our object to revive the Irish language as the spoken tongue of the Irish people.
We are entitled to ask whether the National University has done the share of the work it might have been expected to do in that connection. I do not wish to indulge in any carping criticism, though I am bound to say that there is a feeling amongst a large number of people who are interested in the revival and who have worked to that end over a long period of years, that there seems to be a certain hostility to it. I hope that I am wrong —or rather that those who have that belief are wrong—but certainly there is such a feeling, from the criticisms that have emerged from time to time from some of those now charged with the responsibility of university education, and they have laid themselves open to the charge that they were not friendly to developments in connection with Irish.
I intend to say before I finish that if there were a method or an agency like the University Grants Committee in England—which examines this question apart from politics—I have no doubt whatever that it might easily recommend larger sums than the Minister is asking for at present. We have no such body and therefore Deputies can only give certain views within their experience and their impressions. There certainly must be a feeling amongst those who have passed from the secondary schools into the university that there is not that personal contact with the student which is characteristic of the secondary school. In a great many universities that is overcome by the tutorial system.
I do not know whether the university have in mind the provision of suitable hostels, seeing that accommodation is very difficult to secure in this city at present, but it should be attended to. If that were done, I think it could be arranged that, with the erection of these hostels and their maintenance by the university, if there are difficulties in extending the use of Irish in the colleges, then in these hostels, particularly if the tutorial system were introduced, more could be done to popularise the use of Irish amongst the students and the staff. The smaller colleges have the advantage of personal contact to some degree, but here in Dublin with the very large number of students and the numbers in some of the classes, it must be very difficult for the professor to have that personal relationship with the individual student which we would like to see.
Then there is the general question of technology, if the trend is to be towards increasing the provision for instruction in the sciences, whether separate provision will not have to be made in the long run. The old College of Science was taken over by the National University and it was the opinion of those who had gone through that college that the courses given in the old college were more practical and suited better the ordinary pass degreeman. Of course, the numbers were much smaller, there was ample provision for laboratory work, the day was pretty full and the applied sciences were given very special attention. I quite understand that a great deal will have to be done in one way or another, whatever is done eventually, to provide for research and facilities for scientific teaching. But if University College, Dublin, is getting so large that accommodation cannot be provided for it, will the question of setting up separate schools or, perhaps, separate technological institutes not arise?
It is only fair to say that in England, where very special attention is being given to this question of the training of scientific manpower, quite recently it was the intention that the technical colleges should be placed in a position that the student who completed his course through these colleges and who had, in addition, very often the advantage of actual experience working in industry, perhaps, over a period of years, should not be placed in an inferior position, as regards his final qualifications with the university graduates, and, if I understand the matter, it seems to be in contemplation that some type of degree or diploma, roughly equivalent to that awarded at the end of the university course in the same subjects, will be given. That means, of course, that there will be an enormous increase in the number of school personnel who will be capable of undertaking positions of responsibility. One wonders whether, in the present situation, you can have that contact with industry, that intimate contact, if the professors and staff have so much of their time taken up with teaching these large classes and if they have to give attention to pure research in their own spheres.
I do not think I have anything further to add, except, perhaps, to remind the Minister that, as well as the staff, there are the students and is it not time that the State should consider awarding scholarships? We have the county council scholarships and corporation scholarships to the universities, but if we are to be guided by the analogy of Great Britain, where they say that no more than one-fifth of the best brains of the country reach the university—and they are quite confident that by duplicating the numbers, they can even raise the standard, we should make some such provision. That may not be quite the position with us, but few will gainsay that there must be very good brains indeed, who have, perhaps, just failed to secure the scholarship. In Great Britain they have a means test. If there were to be a means test, I think there should be very substantial margins. I think the English Government took over the responsibility for the scholarships that had been awarded by the county councils and left them to give the scholarships, as far as I understand, to the next best. That was possibly part of a drive peculiar to Great Britain, to build the greatest numbers in this scientific manpower campaign possible. I, for one, at any rate, giving my own opinion in this matter, believe that the State should give more in the way of scholarships and should throw them open, as far as possible, to the best boys and girls in the State.
The tendency is to underpay undoubtedly those who are engaged in the educational profession as compared with their confreres, those of equal qualifications in other walks of life. If we are interested in scholarship and if we place a value upon it, undoubtedly we will have to be prepared either to establish fellowships or adopt some other method by which matters like Celtic scholarship or special work in connection with the Irish language, if it cannot be provided for elsewhere through the ordinary channels of the university, will certainly be placed in a position that it cannot be said, as is being said so freely at present, that it is either being ignored or neglected.