Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Mar 1951

Vol. 124 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture (Resumed).

Debate resumed on motion: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."

Mr. Corry

I have very little to add to what I said last night except to deal with one statement made by the Minister. At column 1649, Volume 124, of the Official Reports, the Minister said:—

"Open confession is good for the soul. I never realised that our people were capable of absorbing as much as they did. They got more butter from native production in 1950 than ever was eaten in Ireland since Brian Boru was killed at Clontarf, and frankly that took me by surprise."

Frankly, that surprised me. Knowing the wild statements made by the Minister, we decided to check up on that and yesterday the Taoiseach was asked the following question: If he will state the total production of creamery and farmers' butter for each year since 1933? In reply, he gave the following particulars: In 1937 there were, 1,227,000 cwt. produced. I will not say that they were eaten at home, because I understand butter was exported in that period. In 1940-41 there were 1,177,000 cwt. produced; that is, 639,000 cwt. of creamery butter and 438,000 cwt. of farmers' butter. In 1945 there were 606,000 cwt. of creamery butter and 471,000 cwt. of farmers' butter; that was 1,077,000 cwt. altogether and every blooming lb. of that was consumed here at home. Not a lb. of it left the country.

For the year 1950 the space for farmers' butter is marked "not available". In 1949, 1,084,000 cwt. of butter were produced in this country; that is, 688,000 cwt. of creamery butter and 396,000 cwt. of farmers' butter. That was only 7,000 cwt. more than was produced and eaten in this country in 1945.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and, 20 Deputies being present—

Mr. Corry

I am glad Deputy Donnellan has brought in the Leader of the Farmers' Party, Deputy Halliden. I am sure he will be most interested in these figures. On the basis of what I have stated, there was no justification for the export of 37,000 cwt. of butter. The total quantity produced in 1945, between creamery and farmers' butter, was 1,077,000 cwt. and the total quantity produced in 1949 was 1,084,000 cwt., just 7,000 cwt. more. Whether the Minister expected that the people had become so impoverished under his Government that they were going to consume 37,000 cwt. of butter less, I do not know.

As I pointed out last night, it was in the carrying out of an enormous bluff, a most contemptible bluff, that he endeavoured to force down the price of milk by 2d. a gallon. I had not the advantage last night of those figures. This question was asked only yesterday and it was answered by the Taoiseach. It was impertinence on the part of the Minister to stand up here in his usual flamboyant way and tell us there was never so much butter consumed since the days of Brian Boru. Then he was responsible for bringing in here what to us looks very like butter that was taken out of Brian Boru's tent in 1088.

Mr. Coburn

The Deputy means 1014.

Mr. Corry

It must have been kept it cold storage in Denmark ever since, but, at any rate, it was brought in here for consumption by the Dublin people and paid for by James Dillon, the Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. Fagan

You do not know good butter.

Mr. Corry

To approach it you would need a gas mask, something like the Minister told us about some years ago with regard to Irish butter. Those figures I have given disclose some very significant facts. There has been a reduction in the production of farmers' butter in the years between 1944-45 and 1949. In 1945 we produced 471,000 cwt. of farmers' butter and in 1949, the latest year for which we have figures available, we produced 396,000 cwt. of farmers' butter. That shows a reduction of 75,000 cwt. In future when we are taking into consideration the supposed increase in creamery butter we have also to consider the very definite reduction, year by year, in the production of farmers' butter.

Mr. Coburn

Why a reduction?

Mr. O'Rourke

Obviously because the subsidy was cut off.

Mr. Corry

There was no price. As a matter of fact, if you take later years you will find that in 1948 there were 417,000 cwt. of farmers' butter produced and in 1949, only 396,000 cwt., a drop of 21,000 cwt. in one year. The Minister does not know what quantity of farmers' butter was produced in 1950. If he did, surely he would have given the information to the Taoiseach. Have the Department gone back to that incompetent pitch, since it left the good hands of Deputy Patrick Smith, that they do not know yet, in March, 1951, the quantity of farmers' butter produced last year?

Mr. Aiken

They do not want to know.

Mr. Corry

Is it that the Minister has the figures and dare not make them known even to the Taoiseach or this House? This flamboyant Minister comes in here and tells us that there was never more butter consumed since Brian Boru was killed at the battle of Clontarf, in an effort to gull not alone Deputies but the farmers, who, he knows, are nothing better than slaves on the completely uneconomic price he is allowing them at present for milk.

Mr. Coburn

You do not look like a slave.

Mr. Corry

If proof of that were wanted, we have it in the figures for 1938-39, the last normal year, as compared with the complete figures for 1949, which show that there is a reduction of over 100,000 cwts. of butter produced, in spite of the fact that we have more cows than we had since Brian Boru. I do not know what they are milking. We are faced with this kind of camouflage and bluff, a rather contemptible bluff, on the part of a Minister who endeavoured to beat down, with that kind of raméis, the unfortunate farmers, instead of giving them the increase he was bound to give them for their increased costs of production since the price of milk was last fixed by Deputy Smith in 1946. The price as fixed then was 1/2 per gallon at the creamery for the summer months. Deputy Halliden and other Deputies of the Farmers' Party, who were then on this side, complained bitterly that the price was uneconomic and they had a motion down before we left office demanding an increase in the price. Deputy Halliden will find it still stuck in one of the pigeon holes. If the price was not good enough in 1947 and if there has been an increase in the cost of production, as Deputy Halliden knows there has been, of over 30 per cent. since then, where is the justification for his sitting behind that Minister, representing the farmers of North Cork and holding him up and helping him out in scourging the farmers whom he pretends to represent here?

Mr. McGrath

There is not even a Minister present now. They are not interested.

Mr. Corry

These are the facts, so far as butter and milk are concerned, and these are the facts in the light of which the House is asked to vote an extra £479,000 as a subsidy to the Danes and New Zealanders. What did the Minister do when opening his case for this Supplementary Estimate? He told us that we got more butter from native production in 1950 than ever was got in Ireland since Brian Boru was killed at Clontarf.

Mr. Coburn

That is the fourth time you said that.

Mr. Corry

I am glad the Minister made that statement, because it brought me back a little and enabled me to find out where this Danish butter came from. The Minister is now engaged on a new scheme. He says he is not going to have Jerseys, Guernseys or any of these Pekinese breeds, as he called them some time ago. Now he is shifting the Kerry cows up to Donegal and I suppose he will inseminate them above with a Jersey bull. "Anybody familiar with the congested areas," he said, "will remember the perennial difficulty of providing West Donegal"—he is shifting them very near the Border—"and parts of Connemara with the type of cow which could give a decent yield of milk under the very rigorous conditions that obtain there." He went on to say that he had in Kerry a breed of cattle unique in the whole world. These quotations are to be found at 1633 of the Official Reports of 8th March last. He said that when he learned that certain sophisticated farmers in the country were bringing in Jersey, Guernsey and Ayrshire cows, he apprehended that they would start bringing in Abyssinian cows. I suppose that was to pay for the muck barley he brought in last year. He said that he hoped to embark the first contingent for Aranmore, if it had not already gone there.

Deputy Halliden will remember the pressure that used to be brought by certain portions of West Cork and the greater portion of County Kerry for permission to keep other bulls than Kerry bulls and other cattle than Kerry cattle, which were prohibited by the Department of Agriculture at the time, but now we are spreading them out and they are to go travelling. We have done more than that, because we have gone off for the alternative market, and —you would never believe it—the Minister tells us that he is going to breed Kerry cattle for shipment—of all the places on God's earth—to Palestine. That is the latest, and, in addition, there is no Irishman fit to breed these Kerry cattle. It would never do for anybody down in Kerry to start breeding these cattle and getting in touch with Deputy Bob Briscoe and sending them out to Palestine. "I am very glad to inform the House," he said, "that one of the most distinguished breeders in Scotland hopes to establish a modest farm in the south-west of Ireland whereon to assemble consignments of Kerry cattle for shipment to Palestine where a profitable market exists for them for precisely the same reason as they are proving a success in West Mayo and West Donegal."

I remember the Minister for Agriculture, when he was a wild bad colonial boy sitting over here, telling us of the exploits of a case of poultry which went to one of these fly-by-night markets that the Fianna Fáil Government were looking for on the Continent, instead of looking for the glorious market that Mother England was providing. Lo and behold, that Minister now has not alone gone to the Continent but, as he told me in this House recently, every ambassador of his throughout Europe is marching along from door to door with a basket of eggs in his hand, and is hammering at the doors trying to sell the eggs.

An Ceann Comhairle

Eggs are not in this Estimate.

Mr. Corry

Just in passing.

An Ceann Comhairle

Eggs are not in this Estimate.

Mr. Corry

I agree.

An Ceann Comhairle

Very good.

Mr. Corry

Will you find an egg in that Estimate? At column 1634, Volume 124, of the Dáil Debates, the Minister, in introducing this Estimate, stated that he was assembling consignments of Kerry cattle for shipment to Palestine. I, Sir, have a very rooted objection, which is shared, I think, by a large number of Deputies. I wonder what Deputy Commons would say about this Scotsman that our Minister for Agriculture is now bringing in to the south-west of Ireland.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is repeating himself.

Mr. Corry

I do not know if he is a Jew.

Mr. Coburn

Ask Deputy Allen; he will tell you what to say.

Mr. Corry

I do not know if he is a Jew, but a Scotsman is the next thing. I suggest to the Minister that in a case like this, if he has found a market for Kerry cattle, some Kerryman with a bit of land in Kerry could be found competent and able enough to take charge of the assembling of these cattle for export, and that he need not and ought not to go to Scotland to find somebody.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is again repeating himself.

Mr. Corry

Realising what the situation is, Sir, I do not wish to take up the time of the House further. I will have an opportunity, please God, at a later date, but I would just again call the Minister's attention to the figures given by the Taoiseach to this House yesterday, and I hope he can reconcile those figures with the wild statements he made in introducing the Estimate.

Mr. Connolly

I am sure the House would be grateful to Deputy Corry if, in the course of his remarks, he could avoid making contemptuous references to other nationalities. I cannot conceive why he should go out of his way to offend our Celtic brethren in Scotland.

Mr. Corry

Did Deputy Connolly ever meet the Cameron Highlanders that they sent over here? I did.

Mr. Connolly

There have been Irishmen whose deeds in history have been worse than that of any Scotsman I know of. That does not at all give us grounds for casting aspersions at Scotsmen, whether they are breeders of cattle or carry on other occupations. These offensive remarks of Deputy Corry, of course, carry very little weight and do not illuminate the discussion very much.

Mr. Aiken

They are not half as bad as the remarks made by the Minister for Agriculture on the Irish people in his speech. Will Deputy Connolly read what the Minister for Agriculture said at column 1635:—

"I do not know why our people have that supreme contempt for the neighbour's son or the neighbour's beast"?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not be interrupted unless he gives way.

Mr. Aiken

I am merely asking——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not, unless Deputy Connolly gives way and, as he did not sit down, he did not give way. Deputy Connolly.

Mr. Connolly

I am sorry, I could not follow the remarks of Deputy Aiken.

Mr. Aiken

If the Deputy gives way for one second I will put the question.

Mr. Connolly

Very well.

Mr. Aiken

The Minister for Agriculture, at column 1635, in opening this debate, said, about Irish people:

"I do not know why our people have that supreme contempt for the neighbour's son or the neighbour's beast, but the interesting thing is that the neighbour's son or the neighbour's beast from this country conquers the world when it gets outside Ireland, but at home, the people have contempt for it."

Mr. Dillon

Are you quoting now?

Mr. Aiken

Yes.

Mr. Dillon

Finish the quotation and do not put in any trimmings of your own.

Mr. Aiken

"when it gets outside Ireland——"

Mr. Dillon

Yes?

Mr. Aiken

"and it very often is driven out of this country by the contempt heaped upon it by these neighbours."

That is in reference to Irish people. They have nothing but contempt for themselves. That is worse than anything Deputy Corry said about people in any other country.

Mr. Dillon

It is well I prevented you putting the trimmings on.

Mr. Aiken

Let Deputy Connolly address himself to that. Is he agreeable?

Mr. Connolly

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Connolly will make his own speech.

Mr. Connolly

I cannot find any offensive content in the remarks of the Minister at column 1635, which have been quoted by Deputy Aiken. I was referring to offensive remarks in connection with our neighbours in the world.

Mr. Aiken

The Deputy thinks that is a proper appreciation of the Irish character?

Mr. Connolly

It is an appreciation of the way in which they estimate the relative value of the different types of cattle, as far as I understand.

Mr. Aiken

People—neighbours' sons.

Mr. Connolly

The portion of the Minister's remarks in introducing this Estimate, to which I wish to refer—I hope in a constructive manner— has to do with the question of hides and pelts, to which the Minister makes an opening reference at column 1638. He gives figures to show a remarkable expansion in the number of animals slaughtered for the dead-meat trade under the Agricultural Produce (Fresh Meat) Acts and, while he is pleased with this remarkable expansion, he laments that it has the unsatisfactory feature in it that the hides and pelts of these animals are retained for processing in our own country. I do not quite follow that that is an unsatisfactory feature in itself. The Minister, I am sure, must intend to say there that it is unsatisfactory in reference to the conditions which he mentions later on. That is, that the slaughter of cattle is materially conditioned by the price realised for the hides, and, only for the peculiar feature of this matter, he believes that we could greatly increase the number of beasts slaughtered for this purpose and, therefore, we could considerably improve or increase the exports of this industry. He states that "a sum of £5 per hide deducted from the price of the cattle because they are being slaughtered in Ireland and the meat exported has resulted in great difficulty in my expanding the dead-meat trade which would bring grist to our mill in Ireland." I am afraid it is very hard to understand that sentence. Perhaps the Minister would explain what he intended to convey.

Mr. Dillon

I think, if you put a comma after the word "exported" the meaning is quite clear.

Mr. Connolly

The Minister goes on to show that that is the result of manipulation by a certain ring. If the matter could be remedied without disturbing the market and the tanneries, and giving a boost to the price of leather, which would adversely affect the price of shoes, he could materially expand this dead-meat trade. But, unfortunately, the Minister has been unable to find a way out. He says that if he could find a way out he could double, treble or quadruple the number of cattle slaughtered in this country for the dead-meat trade, and that a remunerative market, which waits on this expansion, is in America, Canada, Great Britain and on the Continent.

The Minister said he would be very grateful to any Deputy, on either side of the House, who could resolve that dilemma without, of course, increasing the price of every pair of boots by 5/- and without closing down the tanning factories. Well, it is a challenge, I suppose, to most Deputies to try to assist the Minister. I was wondering whether a method of approach to this problem did not occur to him. If, as he states, the resolving of that difficulty will enable the dead-meat trade, and those in charge of it, to increase their exports by four times surely some impost could be borne by the dead-meat trade to its own advantage. It would appear to me that, without penalising the farmers but by enabling the increase to be given to the farmers, in fact, without having them to subsidise the tanning industry—the boot and shoe industry enjoys high protection to the extent of £1,000,000, according to the Minister—the dead-meat trade might be persuaded to bear some of the cost of this subsidy without influencing the price of boots and shoes. It should be possible that some charge could be put on the exports of the dead-meat trade. There should be some way of taxing them by regulation or otherwise so that they could bear some of the difference between the present price of the hide and the world price. According to the Minister, the world price is about 2/10 per lb., while this Hide Improvement Society is paying the farmers the princely sum of 10d. per lb. for the hides of beasts slaughtered in this country.

There is evidently great difficulty, according to the Minister, in changing the set-up, though he stated a stroke of the pen could alter it. Evidently, he has no desire to use the pen in this manner. Therefore, he should address himself to other means to regulate this question.

Mr. Dillon

Where are we to get the £1,500,000?

Mr. Connolly

It occurs to me that if the Minister and his experts put their minds to this in a more detailed manner than it is possible for me to do, and if by so doing the situation could be remedied, the exports would go up according to the Minister's contention. The people who would benefit thereby would be those who are at present profiting from the dead-meat trade. Surely, there have been, in other countries, methods by which one industry will facilitate the export trade of a section of that industry or of an ancillary industry in much the same way as that was started in Germany in regard to the export of sugar. Surely, it would be possible for the people now drawing profits from the dead-meat trade in this country to pay, according to the quantity of their products which they exported, some amount which would ease the difference between the 2/10 per lb. and the 10d. per lb.

Mr. Dillon

The dead-meat trade would cease to be profitable to them and they would not go on exporting.

Mr. Connolly

It seems to me to be a fundamental axiom of trade that if you can expand your production four times your on-costs and overheads are bound to be reduced.

Mr. Dillon

Not by £1,000,000.

Mr. Connolly

No. I find it impossible to get figures. There was a question addressed to the Taoiseach to-day in relation to the number of hides received by the tanneries. No information was available regarding the number of hides and pelts received by the tanneries. Figures were given with regard to the number of cattle and calves slaughtered in Ireland in the third and fourth quarter of the year, but even here it appears that the information is very difficult to come by. But, if there are cattle available, if they could be slaughtered, and if the export could be quadrupled, it would appear to me that in quadrup ling it they would not only make the same profit per unit as at present, but they would considerably increase the profit on the increased turn-over. It appears to me to be a very peculiar situation in which the increase which is desired evidently by the Minister would lead to an increase in the losses to the industry concerned. The Minister could hardly, if I read him correctly, contend or desire that the business should quadruple its losses.

Mr. Dillon

No.

Mr. Connolly

Then the mystery is even deeper than I considered it when listening to the Minister in his opening remarks. It appears to me that there should be some possibility—I leave it to the Minister to examine that—of regulating the export of the dead-meat trade in such a profitable market as exists, a remunerative market according to the Minister, not a market in which a loss is made, but a market which is remunerative, and, therefore, I can only assume, remunerative to those who are handling this trade—that they are making a profit and not a loss. If they are making a profit, some portion of that profit, it appears to me, could easily be diverted by regulation or legislation or otherwise in such a way that the farmers would receive more than they receive at present at the rate of 10d. per lb. for their hides and yet, at the same time, the price of shoes would not be adversely affected, would not rise by 5/- a pair. However, I shall leave it at that and the Minister may probably get some little thought on it.

Mr. Dillon

I have been thinking about it for 18 months and I cannot find an answer.

Mr. Connolly

Has the Minister thought of it in that direction?

Mr. Dillon

Yes.

Mr. Connolly

Then we shall have to leave it there. As one who has no desire to confess as knowledge of agriculture. I should like to say that the remarks made by members of the Opposition with regard to this butter question, to my mind, as a mere layman and not an expert, were absolutely uncalled for and merely made for the purpose of getting a bit of Party capital.

Mr. Allen

Not a word about it.

Mr. Connolly

This unfair comparison with Danish butter is a matter which might be finished once and for all if the Minister would give the House some comparative figures and facts in regard to the calorific value and the vitamin content.

Major de Valera

Is not Irish butter the best butter?

Mr. Connolly

Not necessarily. It is not necessary for Deputies to be jingoistically national or to think that it is the best.

Major de Valera

The people of Dublin think it is.

Mr. Connolly

The people of Dublin find that there are cases where some members of a family prefer Danish butter to the Irish and, again, where some prefer the Irish to the Danish. If Deputy de Valera wants to tell us that every person in Dublin has the same taste in butter, surely he is trying to butter the House. I am quite certain that the Minister could provide a very sufficient answer to this. Even if it were shown that the butter is not 100 per cent. as nutritious as the Irish, yet the margin by which it falls short would be very little. It is an accepted fact that in Glasgow, a city with which I had acquaintance and with which I have very many connections, Danish butter is always preferred to Irish; when Danish butter is available, the Irish butter does not get a ready sale. Deputy de Valera, if he investigates the matter, will find that to be perfectly correct, even amongst the members of the Irish section of the community there, patriotic and all as they may be, and they are generally more patriotic when away from home than we are here. But the case made against the butter is very flimsy, and I wish the Minister would give the House some actual scientific solution of this problem.

Major de Valera

There is one matter related to one sub-head of this Estimate which I would like to mention to the Minister. My information is that the Minister, apparently through the Flour Millers' Association, caused the distribution allowance of wholesalers to be discontinued very recently.

Mr. Dillon

I am hoping to do it, but I have not quite succeeded yet.

Major de Valera

My information is that some days ago the Minister gave instructions to this effect and that the effect is to withdraw from those wholesalers the distribution margin or allowance that was customary heretofore. I understand that there are some 200 firms involved in this——

Mr. Dillon

In the whole country?

Major de Valera

Yes—that they perform a useful established service in the distribution of these milling offals —bran and pollard, I think, were mentioned—and that the effect of this step of the Minister's will be very prejudicial to this element in the distribution machinery. I understand that this step in cutting out their margin and, as I understand it, charging the same price as would be charged direct to the customer, will have a very prejudicial effect on their employees——

Mr. Dillon

There is no proposal to charge the same as the customer.

Major de Valera

I may have misunderstood that. At any rate, the wholesale distribution allowance is to be no longer allowed.

Mr. Dillon

To this restricted group of arbitrarily chosen persons.

Major de Valera

Here are the factors I want to put to the Minister. No matter what may be the ideal in any particular set of circumstances, no matter what a person in the Minister's position or any Government wants to do, one must necessarily take into account what the de facto situation is.

In fact you have that particular element in the business organisation concerned. If my information is correct, I think there are very legitimate grounds for complaint in relation to the Minister's approach to this matter. That approach seems to have been made without any regard to the interests of the people concerned. I do not want to get into the very involved matter of distribution. I simply put the case for these people, who are entitled to fair treatment. They are performing a useful service under the existing order of things.

Mr. Dillon

That is begging the question.

Major de Valera

I do not think it is. These people would not have had customers had they not been performing a useful service to the community. I think it is safe to say there was nothing abnormal in their case. They secured their position in the normal development of business. They did not enter into that business without there being some merit in it and without their performing a useful service to the community.

Mr. Dillon

That is a very considerable presumption.

Major de Valera

Nevertheless it is a fact. The Minister takes this step without any reference to the people concerned and the inevitable result will be to prejudice that section of the community represented by these people and their employees. I fear this is just another precipitate decision on the part of the Minister where the Minister, I assert regretfully, acted without reference to the situation as a whole and to all the facts.

Mr. Dillon

Was it not recommended in the Lavery report?

Major de Valera

The Minister brings me to the flour milling report. It would be all right to base oneself on that report had the Minister either accepted it or rejected it in toto. The fact is that parts of the report have been accepted by the Government and parts have been rejected. It is hardly fair to blame the authors of the report for the consequences when one accepts some bits of it and rejects others.

Mr. Dillon

Why?

Major de Valera

One can hardly maintain then that one is acting on the report. However, that is beside the point. This matter has been brought to my attention. I understand it happened only a few days ago. I think the method by which it was done is per se objectionable. Hypothetically, I can see a number of approaches to the problem but I admit quite frankly I have not had an opportunity of studying them in more detail. I recommend the matter to the Minister for his reconsideration, taking everything into account and, in particular, allowing, if necessary, for transition phases.

Mr. Fagan

Deputy Corry referred to hides. Apparently Deputy Corry does not understand the position. There is a fixed price for our live stock and for our dead meat. There is a difference in price for our hides and it pays one better at the moment to take the live weight. There is something wrong in the hide business. I cannot understand the situation. The week before last, in Manchester hides were making 4/0½ per lb. Last week I was perturbed at the number of lorries down my part of the country on their way to the North of Ireland with hides. I understand that one can actually afford to lose one's lorry, costing £850, and the hides, and still make £1,600 profit. There is a ring in existence. I was in Cork on one occasion and a butcher told me he could not dispose of a quantity of hides. I rang up Carrick-on-Suir and I was told that they could not accept hides from me because I was not an agent. The agent at the moment is netting 1/11 per lb. for himself and the butcher is getting only 10d. That is where the trouble is. The people who kill the animals should sell the hides themselves and do away with the man-in-between.

I do not see why the boot and shoe industry should receive so much protection. I see by the Press that Irish tanneries are a good investment. When the people become sufficiently awake to the situation there will be no hides for the tanneries unless the rings are done away with. It pays better to sell a beast live weight because the price for hides at the moment is unremunerative.

Mr. Allen

The fact that this Estimate was referred back by almost 50 per cent. of the elected representatives of the people proves that there are some unusual features in it, and that it needs more than ordinary attention from the House. It is not often that a Supplementary Estimate is referred back at the close of the financial year. The Minister, in introducing this, thought fit to introduce many things besides just the present needs of his Department. He raised the matter of hides, the price paid for them, and the loss sustained by the farmers. He set himself out to persuade the farmers that they are losing £5 per beast on every beast slaughtered. The Minister knows that is not an established fact. He knows quite well that there is an open market here for all our cattle so far as Great Britain is concerned. If a hide is worth 90 per cent. more in England the English buyer here calculates the value of that hide when competing against the Irish buyers in our markets. Is not that a fact? Is it not a fact also that we export more than two-thirds of our total production of cattle?

The Irish farmer receives, in respect of every beast, whether killed here or exported, the world market price for the hide plus the meat. There is no question about that. Deputy Fagan knows quite well that the English buyer is aware, when he comes to the Dublin market on Wednesday morning, of the price of the beast's hide and he gives the value of the beast in England, the meat plus the hide. The Irish butcher must pay that price against him, otherwise he will not get cattle. Let that bubble be burst, once and for all.

I do not know anything about the middleman of whom Deputy Fagan talks, the man who handles the hides. The Minister called those people crooks here. He said they formed a ring and they were crooks. As usual, everybody engaged in industry of any type is called a crook by the Minister. For the Minister to call any group crooks is, I am sure, just the same as to call them gentlemen. I hope the Minister will not continue trying to fool the farmers that they are subsidising the tanneries to the extent of £5 for every hide. They have no such subsidy and no one knows that better, or should know it better, than the Minister.

Mr. Dillon

I hear the voice of Gorey speaking.

Mr. Allen

There is an open market for our cattle and the price is paid for the meat plus the hide. Deputy de Valera mentioned just now that the Minister proposed to do away with wholesalers of offals and that he will take whatever livelihood they have from some 200 wholesalers of offals here without due notice. He intends to wipe them out with one stroke of the pen. Why not wipe out the middlemen Deputy Fagan refers to, also with a stroke of the pen? The Minister for Agriculture has killed many agricultural industries during the past three years. At one time he talked about the bacon producers and the manure manufacturers as crooks. He referred to the cereal people and the people who produce root seeds as crooks. He said the people who produced pedigree wheat seed were crooks. Everybody who had anything to do with agriculture was a crook, according to the Minister. I hope we will not hear anything more about the £5 subsidy for the leather merchants or the boot and shoe manufacturers. They are not receiving any such subsidy from the Irish farmers. The ten cwt. beast is worth the same price at Birkenhead as in Dublin, plus the carriage.

There is provision in the Supplementary Estimate to pay more by way of subsidy on butter. I have on numerous occasions raised the question of farmers' butter with the Minister. Yesterday the Taoiseach referred to the production of butter here. I am sure the Minister is not unaware of the production of creamery and farmers' butter all down the years. He must have noticed that the production of farmers' butter has fallen very considerably in the past two or three years. He talked ad lib about the increase in the output of creamery butter. In 1950 it was little greater than in 1937.

Mr. Dillon

That was when we were paying the British to eat it.

Mr. Allen

The Minister has been paying the British in the past year to eat our bacon.

Mr. Dillon

The devil a much of our bacon they got last year. I wish we had more to send them.

Mr. Allen

If we had a little less noise from the Minister probably we would get on faster. The fact remains that the Minister has set out deliberately to kill the production of farmers' butter.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is nothing about farmers' butter in this Estimate. It concerns creamery.

Mr. Allen

There has been a slight increase in the production of creamery butter in the past year, and in that connection the Minister is seeking a considerable extra amount in this Vote.

Mr. Dillon

To enable our people to get it at 2/8.

Mr. Allen

He is asking for £479,000 extra in the present financial year— that amount is being sought as a subsidy. He reduced the price of creamery butter to the consumer. This is a production subsidy, but there is no production subsidy for the producers of home butter. The farmer-producers are being put out of existence. They are selling off their cows. They are putting in calves, and maybe the Minister desires that. I know farmers with ten to 20 cows and they are not milking them now.

Mr. Dillon

Since the Shelbourne creamery closed down.

Mr. Allen

I hope the Minister will come down to the Shelbourne area. He has made no attempt to address the Shelbourne farmers. He will take good care not to go down there. I challenge him to go down there. The Minister has been requested from all sides for many months to increase the price of milk payable to the farmers who deliver to the creameries. He has obstinately and deliberately refused to give any increase to the farmers for their milk in the present year. He must be aware that very heavy charges have been put on the farmers over the past three years. I think it was in 1946 his predecessor fixed the price of milk delivered to the creameries at what it is now, 1/2 in the summer and 1/4 in the winter. It was agreed by all sides of the House at the time that the amount proposed to be paid to the farmers in 1946 was not exorbitant, that it was as low a price as could possibly be justified, and an unanswerable case exists for an increase in the price of that milk at present.

Mr. Dillon

Of how much?

Mr. Allen

Rates have gone up; wages have gone up; the price of agricultural machinery has gone up; the price of manures and seeds of all kinds has gone up; and the farmers cost of living has gone up. He must buy boots and clothes the same as everybody else, and his cost of living has gone up as much as that of any other section of the community in the matter of his ordinary workaday life. His food, clothing and drink have gone up in price, just as have those of Deputy Cowan or anybody else.

Captain Cowan

I do not grumble about the means by which I make my living.

Mr. Allen

We are not grumbling about it. We are proud of the means by which we make our livelihoods. The farmer is proud of his method of livelihood, but when the State steps in and fixes an uneconomic price against him, he must growl and kick. He should not be put out of existence, and he is entitled, as a good citizen of the State, to the cost of production of whatever he produces. The policy of this Minister is to deny to the farmers an economic price for their milk and his efforts are directed to reducing their standard of living.

Captain Cowan

That is nonsense.

Mr. Allen

The inevitable result of that effort of the Minister to reduce the standard of living of the farmers must be to reduce the standard of living of the agricultural worker. There must be fewer of them employed or they must work at a lower standard than their present standard. That is the inevitable result of the Minister's deliberate pursuing of that policy—a depressing of the living of the agricultural community. I am precluded from referring to the price of milk delivered to cities and towns, but I will have an opportunity of discussing it on another occasion.

There is a considerable sum in this Supplementary Estimate for subsidies in respect of flour and wheaten meal. Arising out of the Acts under which these subsidies are paid, the price of wheat is fixed, and we charge the Minister with being dishonest with this House and with the farmers because he has not seen fit, before 14th March of this year, to increase the price which farmers will receive for the wheat when they harvest their crop next September. The present price was fixed by the Minister's predecessor in October, 1947, and announced in the public Press. What the Minister did when he came into office was to say: "Very well; if any group of farmers is so insane as to want to continue to grow wheat, we will fix it for five years. We will blister them and let them see whether they want to grow it after five years or not." As I have said, the cost to the farmer of producing wheat from every point of view has gone up since 1947. It is the lowest-priced cereal that can be produced from the land to-day.

Mr. Dillon

And they are getting twice as much off each acre.

Mr. Allen

The Minister is prepared to pay the Irish farmer only £25 per ton for producing the best quality wheat, while he is prepared to pay the Canadian, the Australian and American £32 per ton.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy adverts to the difference between green and dried?

Mr. Allen

Dried wheat. I am not one of those who believe that green or wet wheat should be delivered to any mill. I want to see wheat of fair quality delivered by the farmers, and if they are encouraged properly to harvest their wheat and deliver it, and if they are paid a fair price for it, they will do so. Since taking up office, the Minister has been a great advocate of increased machinery. Any green or wet wheat which went into the mills in 1950 was the result, first, of the wet harvest and, secondly, the increased use of combined harvesters. Fortunately or unfortunately, for better or for worse, combines have come to stay and their number is increasing year by year, but I can see nothing the Minister has done to increase the drying facilities down the country where the wheat is being grown. In Wexford this year we have four or five times the number of combined harvesters—at least, there will be four or five times the number before the harvest—that we had two years ago. There is not a single extra kiln in that part of the country to dry the wheat, which must go immediately to the mill from the combined harvester.

If it is a very dry season, it is all right, but if it is a wet season, like last year, more wet wheat must go into the mills. If the farmers are forced by circumstances, by labour and other conditions, to use combined harvesters to harvest their corn, facilities must be provided to have it dried, and dried right away. The Minister has done nothing whatever to organise these facilities which are so urgently needed. In the counties of Leinster and Munster which grow the corn, the combined harvesters are doubling in number from day to day and the corn will be going into the mills green or dry, according to the season. If it is a bad harvest like last year, it will be wet.

Again, I appeal to the Minister to take into consideration the fact that the farmers are entitled to at least as much as he is paying the foreigner for wheat and they should be offered over £30 per ton to grow wheat this year. A big proportion of the land being tilled is unfit for growing barley and unfit for growing oats, but it is most suitable for growing wheat, and the farmers living on that type of land are entitled to their cost of production for producing wheat. There is not a man, woman or child in the country to-day but knows what the Minister's attitude to the growing of wheat in this country is. He has made use of every adjective and every adverb he could find to belittle the growing of wheat. He has done that time after time and he has used his position in this House in an effort to switch Irish farmers off producing wheat. He has been doing that consistently over the years and in deliberately depressing the price paid to farmers this year, he is trying to kill that industry, as he has already succeeded in killing other industries, notably the egg industry.

An Ceann Comhairle

It has nothing to do with this Estimate.

Mr. Allen

I know, but I make a passing reference to it in order to emphasise a point.

Mr. Dillon

Just because he loves me so much.

Mr. Allen

I merely want to emphasise the fact that it is the deliberate policy of the Minister to strangle the Irish farmer. The Irish farmer is a great man if he is producing cattle for export to England. That is the Minister's only concern. He admitted only a few days ago——

An Ceann Comhairle

There is nothing in this Supplementary Estimate about the export of cattle.

Mr. Allen

I think there is. There is something here about hides which are closely connected with cattle and the export of cattle.

An Ceann Comhairle

What number?

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy was wedding the dead meat to the hides and blowing a soul into them.

Mr. Allen

I will quote from column 1638, Volume 10.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Estimate is before the Deputy. Will he give me the reference?

Mr. Allen

I will just refer you to the Minister for Agriculture's opening remarks on this Estimate in order to get authority to continue on the matter of the export of cattle. The Minister, at column 1638, made reference to the fresh meat and the number of cattle that we send out as slaughtered cattle, and he proceeded to point out——

An Ceann Comhairle

All I want is the reference to the export of live cattle—cattle on the hoof.

Mr. Allen

The export of live cattle, the export of Kerry cows, was mentioned here. He was sending them to Palestine. He mentioned that in his opening remarks.

An Ceann Comhairle

To come back to the fact, the export of cattle does not arise, except special Kerry cows to special places.

Mr. Allen

Hides are affected by the export of cattle. You cannot send out cattle without sending the hides with them, unless they are slaughtered at home. They must go out alive.

An Ceann Comhairle

I think the Deputy ought to think seriously.

Mr. Allen

I have the Estimate. I am on wheat. This is the last opportunity, probably, that the Minister will get to come before the House on an agricultural matter before the Easter Recess. We hope and pray that the weather may allow the farmers to have their cereal crops planted before we reassemble after Easter, and we hope that at this season of goodwill, Easter, the Minister for Agriculture may look to the agricultural community and provide them with fair and remunerative prices for their butter, wheat and other products. If he does that, he will have the prayers and the goodwill——

Mr. Dillon

Of the Deputy?

Mr. Allen

——of the agricultural community in this coming Easter time, if he will do justice, even belated justice to the farmers. He has not done that. It is his duty to do justice to the farmers, to the creamery supp liers, to those who will produce wheat in the coming year and to give them a fair price even for farmers' butter. It is his duty to wring from that Government, with the support of the Deputies behind him who represent agricultural constituencies, a fair price for the agricultural community. If the Deputies who sit behind him, who represent agricultural constituencies and farmers' interests, will only do their duty, the Minister will succeed in getting from the Government a fair price for agricultural produce, such as wheat, milk and butter.

We have to wait another day to deal with eggs and other matters. We will have a day for that before the year is out. It is interesting to note that in the Estimate for the current year and in the Estimates for the last two years the Government have provided £1,600,000 extra for civil servants.

Captain Cowan

How much was provided for the farmers?

Mr. Allen

Nothing.

Mr. Gilbride

That is for the consumer, for you and the like of you.

Mr. Allen

The farmers are subsidised in order to give cheap butter to the consumers and that £1,600,000 which was provided in 1948, would have given 2d. a gallon extra for all the milk delivered to the creameries.

Mr. Dillon

It is an exhilarating experience to serve you.

Mr. Allen

As a member of a Government that have been benevolent to some sections of the community, the Minister should try to hold the scales evenly between all sections of the community and keep a balance. That is his duty.

Flour and wheaten meal have been referred to. Some time last year the Minister announced in this House that he had purchased on the Pacific coast cheap wheat that he proposed to hand over to the millers to mill into pollard and bran, that is, feeding stuff. He even repeated that on another occasion in the House. He was asked the country of origin of this Pacific wheat and he said, with a sweep of his hand, the Pacific coast. Where did that wheat go to, may I ask now?

Mr. Dillon

It is on its way.

Mr. Allen

It was never brought in. The Minister announced, in answer to a Parliamentary Question that I asked him last week, that no wheat was brought in specially for grinding into animal feeding in this country. He announced, in reply to a Parliamentary Question, that no wheat had been brought specially into this country for the production of animal feeding.

Mr. Dillon

It is ploughing the vasty deep, on its way here—No. 5 Manitoba.

Mr. Little

He is planting it in the Atlantic.

Mr. Allen

He announced with a great flourish of trumpets, within the last fortnight, that the wheat being ground for animal feeding at the present time was Irish-grown wheat. Those are the Minister's own words.

Mr. Dillon

Yes. Is fior é.

Mr. Allen

I charge the Minister with deliberately trying to belittle and to lower the value of Irish wheat in the estimation of the Irish people. He is grinding that wheat, for what? For animal feeding, to produce eggs at 2/- a dozen, for export. It is no harm to mention eggs.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is, because they are not in this Estimate.

Mr. Allen

I have got the means of doing so now, a Chinn Chomhairle. This animal feeding for which the Minister is seeking £1,165,000 extra is being produced from wheat, under some of the Cereals Acts, and some of this wheaten pollard will be fed, I am sure, to produce these "two-shilling" eggs.

An Ceann Comhairle

Eggs are not in this Estimate.

Mr. Allen

It is no harm to refer to the use being made of the cereals.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy has no sense of order, having been told three times that it is not in the Estimate.

Mr. Allen

Would I be in order in referring to the use being made of cereals, under this Estimate?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not answering hypothetical questions, but eggs may not be referred to.

Mr. Lemass

He must not mention the egg.

Mr. Davin

Wait for the next election.

Mr. Lemass

Somebody else will be drowned in them by then.

Mr. Allen

Deputy Davin will be out of public life when that time comes anyhow.

Mr. Little

Give him the "eggs-it."

Mr. Allen

In conclusion, I want to say that the Minister for Agriculture, who, as yet, has failed to shift the glacial rocks from Connemara, is going to shift Kerry cows to Palestine, and he should not fail to provide for the Irish farmers a fair price for butter, wheat and——

An Ceann Comhairle

Has not the Deputy said that at least once already?

Captain Cowan

One of the most amazing matters in our public life, over the past three years at least, has been the sustained campaign of abuse and bitterness which has been directed against the Minister for Agriculture. Now, that campaign has been carried on inside and outside this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

I want the Deputy to deal with the Estimate.

Captain Cowan

I intend to deal with it.

Mr. Lemass

Eggs are in it.

Captain Cowan

Yes. I am dealing with this campaign of bitterness directed against the Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

Campaign is not in this Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

It is.

Captain Cowan

This Estimate is being used as part of this campaign against the Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Captain Cowan

I think it is only right that there should be some reference to it, and that that reference should be made by a person like myself who sits on the fence and can see both sides of the question.

Mr. Gilbride

Hear, hear! Sits on the fence.

Mr. Corry

They might put you on the bench.

Captain Cowan

If one considers——

An Ceann Comhairle

On the Estimates, the Minister's salary will be on a Vote. That is the time to discuss the good qualities of the Minister.

Captain Cowan

I am not discussing the Minister's salary.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, but the Deputy is discussing the Minister.

Captain Cowan

I am discussing the Minister's fitness for his position. I am dealing with two days of personal abuse directed in this House against the Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not take up that line, but should deal with the Estimate.

Captain Cowan

May I say that he has been subjected to great abuse in this House? Take the whole speech that we have just had from Deputy Allen? Even you, Sir, had difficulty in keeping him in order, endeavouring, as he was, to continue this campaign of bitterness against the Minister. Now, on these matters that have been discussed, butter, wheat——

Mr. Lemass

Eggs.

Captain Cowan

I am not mentioning eggs at all because I am not permitted to mention them. But on these matters, may I put this, as a fair proposition to the House, that the Minister for Agriculture has worked night and day in the interests of the farmers of this country? From the day he assumed office he has endeavoured, as far as the farmers are concerned, to give them the independence and the stature to which they are entitled.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is a rule of the House that, on a Supplementary Estimate, Deputies discuss what is in it. I have heard nothing about this Estimate yet from the Deputy.

Captain Cowan

That is what I am endeavouring to discuss.

Mr. Dillon

On a point of order, I have sat here for two days while being subjected to a stream of filthy abuse from the Fianna Fáil Benches.

Mr. Lemass

That is not true.

An Ceann Comhairle

I did not hear it and I was here.

Mr. Dillon

It seems to me odd, if they can abuse me and hurl dirt at me for two solid days without interruption, that anybody who attempts to rebut that campaign of calumny is immediately ordered to desist.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a reflection on the Chair.

Mr. Dillon

If it involves any reflection on the Chair, I withdraw it unconditionally.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is obvious.

Mr. Dillon

I had that experience of being abused by the Deputies on the benches opposite. If it involves any reflection on the Chair, I withdraw it unconditionally, and express my profound regret. It was not intentional.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no question but that the Minister's policy was criticised in many respects. No Deputy that I heard devoted his speech to the Minister. They dealt with the Estimate and criticised the Minister's policy in many respects.

Captain Cowan

I was speaking for three minutes. I had no intention of devoting my whole speech to the Minister, but I did think it was right to draw public attention to this vicious campaign against the Minister. What has the Minister been trying to do in regard to the items for which he has been criticised? Has he not been trying to do the best he could for the farmers? The farmers are being held up here as beggars by the Fianna Fáil Party, as people who are starving, as people who are unable to pay their way and unable to pay their agricultural workers, and as people who are unable to pay for machinery. The allegation has been made that the Minister has been responsible for bringing about that state of pauperism.

Mr. Corry

There is no doubt about it.

Mr. Davin

With £16 for sheep and £60 for cattle?

Captain Cowan

I think it is only reasonable that, when we have this Supplementary Estimate discussed in this particular way, somebody should endeavour to try to put things right. I am amazed at this new idea that the farmer is to be deprived of all individual liberty. I am amazed that Deputies who are farmers themselves should come into this House and, on this Estimate, suggest that farmers are helpless people, that they are hopeless individuals, that they do not know themselves what is good for them or what is right for them, and that their position of despair has been brought about by a man who has worked almost 24 hours of every day to improve conditions for them. Deputies may laugh. They might prefer to hear that every minute of every day will be ordered for them, that everything they should do in their own interest they will not be permitted to do, but that some Minister will direct them and order them what to do. These are the boys who talk about communism, socialism and everything else.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is the first I have heard of it in this debate What about the Estimate now?

Captain Cowan

I say, and I am proud to say it, that no person could have done more for the farmers than the Minister for Agriculture has done in the last three years. I say that the farmers of the country appreciate and acknowledge that, and no amount of vilification or abuse can alter that substantial fact. Throughout the country there are more, and not less, agricultural workers being employed; there is more machinery being bought, and more happiness has been brought into the homes of the farmers in the past three years than they have ever known before. That is due, not to the people who have carried out that sustained campaign of vilification and bitterness, but it is due to the person whom we happen to have and whom we are glad to have as our Minister for Agriculture.

I disagree with the Minister for Agriculture on many matters, but I must acknowledge—and I think it is only right that it should be acknowledged—that no man could have worked harder or worked better on behalf of the farmers than he has. If the Minister for Agriculture has difficulty in regard to his markets, difficulty in regard to the things we want to sell, difficulty in regard to the prices of the articles we have to buy, these are difficulties that are due to a very difficult international situation. I think it is a very horrible thing to find in a House such as this, representing the country, that there are Deputies who would be glad to see the prices of our agricultural exports collapse to-morrow if they could bring down the Minister for Agriculture on that issue.

Should it not be the wish and desire of every Deputy that the best bargain that can be made for the farmers of this country should be made? But they know that the better the bargain for the farmers and the better the bargain for the country, the worse it is for them—and they look to their own interests first. I prefer to look to the interests of the farmers. I prefer to look to the interests of the country. Looking at those interests I simply desire to say, and I shall say no more on this Estimate, that we have a good Minister for Agriculture and that we ought to be proud to have him.

Mr. Little

It is easy to see that Deputy Cowan represents a city constituency.

Captain Cowan

I was born in the country; I was reared in the country and I know everything about the country.

Mr. Little

But you do not represent a constituency where you have farmers who are in such a state of indignation that it naturally expresses itself in this House. I feel it is my duty to draw the attention of the Minister to something which has occurred in my constituency. In particular, I want to refer to a very large meeting of farmers which took place in Dungarvan. They were extremely indignant about the milk position and I understand that they are turning away from milk production and are going to rear cattle instead.

Mr. Dillon

Or apples.

Mr. Little

As a result, our consumers will suffer. If the farmers cease to produce milk and turn instead to the rearing of cattle, factories both in Dungarvan and in Carrick—in which the Minister is interested—will suffer very considerably.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy need not lose an hour's sleep. I put the factory in Carrick-on-Suir and it will prosper.

Mr. Little

The Minister should see to it that it will be able to get the proper amount of raw material to enable it to keep going.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy need not lose an hour's sleep.

Mr. Little

The Minister talked about the consumption of butter in this country. He left one factor out of consideration, the consumption of butter by the tourist trade in this country, which has increased to such an enormous extent over the past few years. Probably the consumption of butter by tourists accounts for the difference between the previous consumption of butter and the current consumption of butter. It would leave the ordinary people consuming just the ordinary amount which they consumed before.

In some parts of the area in which I am interested, especially around Carrick-on-Suir, quite a large number of farms have been advertised for grazing this year. I am aware that a number of farmers' sons who know farming would be very anxious to get an opportunity of getting farms like that and carrying out tillage for wheat and so forth. But apparently the policy of the Minister is so much in the direction of rearing cattle that they are not encouraged, as has already been illustrated with reference to the price of wheat, for instance, to till for wheat.

Mr. Rooney

The farmers are making the choice.

Mr. Little

I am also greatly concerned about the leather factories. There are at least three in which, as a Deputy, I am interested. I really think that the Minister should find some solution of the problem. I do not deny that there are great difficulties there. However, it is the duty of the Government to try to find some solution of the problem as between the factory itself which is, after all, anxious to produce leather as cheaply as possible in order that boots may be cheaper, and the farmer and the butcher so that they may get a fairer price. It is not for the Opposition to try and find the solution. That is a matter for the Government who have all the machinery at their disposal. They have full information and they should be able to find a solution of a difficult problem such as that which is involved in the contrast in the price given in another country and that which we have to pay in this country in order that the consumer may get the finished article at as reasonable a price as possible.

Mr. Dillon

What does the Deputy suggest?

Mr. Little

It is not the function of the Deputy to suggest anything in the matter but certainly it is the duty of the Government, with all the machinery at its disposal, to find the solution.

Mr. Lemass

Whatever the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Industry and Commerce agree to.

Mr. Dunne

There is a matter in regard to which I should like the Minister, when he is replying, to give us some information. I refer to an item of £6,000 for the Faculty of Agriculture. I understand that this amount of money has been expended amongst the professors and lecturers——

Mr. Dillon

If the Deputy will excuse me for interrupting him, I beg to draw his attention to the fact that this is a university grant. I think it is the practice of the House that we do not discuss the internal administration of the universities once the grant is made.

An Ceann Comhairle

The universities are autonomous.

Mr. Dunne

I was not aware of the custom in bygone years in this regard but I should like to put this point of view. It would have been a good thing if the junior staff and other workers attached to this particular faculty had been similarly considered by the Minister. Will the Minister indicate, when he is replying, whether he proposes to take any steps along those lines in the near future? It must be obvious, for the same reason that has compelled him to take this particular step, that the same conditions must apply to other persons attached to the faculty which I have mentioned. I do not intend to discuss general agricultural policy on this Estimate though it has been done, in particular, by members of the Opposition Party. An opportunity for that will come on the main Estimate.

More than once I have had occasion to disagree with the Minister on various aspects of his policy. With Deputy Cowan, I should like to say that it would be a better thing for this country, and certainly far better for the farmers as a class, if the criticism by the Opposition were more constructive and if less personal spleen and animosity were displayed by the Opposition. The Opposition may think that they are doing themselves and the country a political favour. I do not think they are. We have had elections and by-elections, particularly in my own constituency, and it has been proved very plainly that personal spite and spleen vented in public does not benefit any political Party. I think that the leaders of the Opposition are well aware of that fact. However, the stage Irish antics of Deputy Corry and of some other Deputies may from time to time seem to be expedient though I am convinced that they will spell the ruin of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Mr. McGrath

Quite a speech on the Estimate.

Mr. Allen

Deputy Dunne is worried.

Mr. Dillon

Are you talking it out?

Mr. Kissane

I should like to say a few words.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Lemass

The last two speakers were from the Minister's side of the House.

Mr. Dillon

I do not object to this speaker.

Mr. Kissane

We have listened to these two archpatriots, Deputies Cowan and Dunne, lecturing us as to the attitude we should take up on this side of the House and it appears now that if we criticise the Minister for Agriculture and find fault with his Department, as we are perfectly entitled to do, we are to be called saboteurs and people who indulge in vile abuse. As far as I can recollect, no vile abuse of the Minister for Agriculture has been indulged in; his policy certainly has been criticised and criticised for certain definite reasons. For instance, the people on this side of the House cannot see for the life of them why it should be the policy of the Minister for Agriculture to import wheat from the ends of the earth at a much higher price than he is prepared to pay the Irish farmer. We believe that that is not a sensible policy and that it is not good for the country.

Mr. Rooney

You did the same.

Mr. Kissane

The same thing app lies to beet. We on this side of the House cannot understand and a lot of people in the country cannot understand why the Minister would not go all out to encourage the farmers to grow as much beet as possible so as to obviate the necessity of importing sugar from the far ends of the earth. If we say that to the Minister for Agriculture and to the Government, is it to be called abuse?

Mr. Rooney

You always brought in wheat.

Mr. Kissane

I hope that I, at any rate, will not be called a campaigner in abuse if I tell the Minister that. I consider that I am telling him the truth. A lot has been said already about the price of milk and that is my chief reason for intervening in this debate to-night. Like other Deputies I consider that the Minister is wrong in not doing something to increase the price of milk delivered at the creameries. I come from a part of the country where the production of milk is the main industry of the farmers, and of course everybody knows that the dairying industry is the foundation industry of farming and if it is allowed to decline that it will be very hard to bring it back. I cannot understand why the Minister has repeatedly refused to meet a deputation from the milk supp liers.

Mr. Dillon

I am meeting a deputation from the I.A.O.S. on Friday morning.

Mr. Kissane

That is a change.

Mr. Dillon

I would not meet the Milk Producers' Federation at the other end of a 40-foot pole.

Mr. Kissane

Would the Minister tell us what he has against the federation?

Mr. Dillon

They are a Fianna Fáil ramp who are trading on the people.

Mr. Kissane

Anybody or any group of people whom the Minister does not like are called racketeers.

Mr. Dillon

Is not the I.A.O.S. good enough for you?

Mr. Gilbride

The producer knows more about milk.

Mr. Dillon

Than the I.A.O.S?

Mr. Gilbride

They are producing it but the others are only middle men.

Mr. Dillon

The I.A.O.S. are not the middle men.

Mr. Kissane

The federation is in my opinion representative of the dairy farmers and they are entitled to have a deputation received by the Minister. They are entitled to put their case for an increase for the price of milk before the Minister and if the Minister has a case with which to rebut theirs then he can do so. These are people who have made a study of the problem and understand all about it and they should be received by the Minister. We all recall that after the change of Government the Minister for Agriculture went around telling the people with a flourish of trumpets that he was to be the servant of the people——

Mr. Dillon

All of us are that.

Mr. Kissane

——and that any group of people who had a case to put up to him would be received with open arms at his Department. Is it a fulfilment of that undertaking to refuse to receive a deputation from the Milk Supp liers' Association? I do not think it is.

Deputy Cowan referred to the difficult international situation and proceeded to lecture us and to tell us that we should not embarrass the Minister or the Government in view of it. It is a pity that Deputy Cowan was not here when there really was a difficult international situation when certain members here did not hesitate to embarrass the then Government. If Deputy Cowan had been here he would have learned a lesson.

Mr. O'Leary

You would have put Deputy Cowan in jail.

Mr. Kissane

A new technique has been introduced by Deputy Cowan. He tries to persuade us that if the farmers or a certain section of them make a demand on the Government they are beggars. That is a very strange technique indeed, I must say. Have not the farmers of the country as much right to put a case to the Government as any other section of the people? Have not the farmers as much right to make demands on the Government as any other section of the people? Why Deputy Cowan should say that because they do that they are beggars I cannot understand.

Mr. Davin

He did not say that.

Mr. O'Leary

Deputy Allen said it.

Mr. Kissane

Deputy Cowan said it.

Mr. Dillon

This speech is for the Kerryman.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Kissane

I do not mind about the Kerryman or any other newspaper; this is a speech to this House.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

It is to the House, but for the Kerryman.

Mr. Gilbride

What about the News of the World?

Mr. Kissane

The farmers of the country are not beggars. They are entitled to put their demands to the Government and to demand an increase in the price of milk. The dairy farmers up and down the country are very dissatisfied with the way the Minister has handled this whole problem. I understand, of course, that the Minister received a deputation recently of Deputies of this House. I do not know what kind of reception he gave them, or whether they extracted a concession from him. My information is that he gave them a blank refusal and that they came away with their tail between their legs. I would like to hear from the Minister whether my version of that is correct or not.(Interruptions.)

Mr. Lemass

There are 20 others talking at the same time.

Mr. Kissane

I would also like to know if, when Deputies who think they represent the farmers, went to the Minister to discuss the price of milk and demand an increase, they were called "beggars".(Interruptions.) Having put my case for an increase in the price of milk before the Minister and before the House, I will sit down.

Mr. Blaney

We listened a short while ago to Deputies Cowan and Dunne —(interruptions)— at great length trying to defend the Minister for Agriculture. (Interruptions.)

Mr. Lemass

I think, Sir, you should make some effort to ensure a hearing for the Deputy. Deputy Kissane spoke for ten minutes against a continuous barrage of interruptions. Deputy Blaney is entitled to speak without interference from the people opposite.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Blaney is getting a hearing.

Mr. Lemass

So are several other Deputies.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has a fair knowledge of what is a hearing. As far as the Chair can see, Deputy Blaney is getting a hearing.

Mr. Davin

Would you mind asking him to speak up?

Mr. Blaney

What I have to say the Deputy will not want to hear. Deputies Dunne and Cowan came to the rescue of the Minister for Agriculture and condemned in very loud terms the tactics adopted, as they said, on this side of the House, vilifying the Minister. In fact, the language used in describing the Minister's policy is very mild in comparison with that which we have come to expect as part and parcel of that same Minister. It is only a few days since he used terms which are anything but edifying in this House or outside it. He referred to a Deputy here as "a scalded cat". Again, referring to the same Deputy, he talked about his "rôle of galloper for broken-down generals".

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Blaney

The charge has been made from the Government Benches that anything that has been said from this side of the House in relation to this Supplementary Estimate was vilification and not genuine criticism.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Whatever qualifications or characterisations the Minister for Agriculture may have indulged in, in respect to other Deputies at a particular time, do not arise on this Estimate. The time to challenge them was when they occurred.

Mr. McGrath

At one time three Deputies spoke here and never mentioned the Estimate at all.

Mr. Blaney

Leaving the references which the Minister made some few days ago, let us take the references which he used, in regard to people not in this House, on this Estimate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise either. The Deputy must deal with the sub-heads of the Estimate.

Mr. Blaney

I am referring now to an item which is in this Estimate and arises out of the sum of money incurred in bringing potatoes to Dublin last year. In reference to that, the Minister explained to the House that that expenditure and loss which he incurred through his own incompetence——

A Deputy

Were you in the ring?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Blaney should be allowed to speak without interruption, the same as any other Deputy.

Mr. Blaney

The Minister charged certain individuals outside this House with bringing potatoes into Dublin and regarded them as racketeers. These people are not members of this House, nor are they in a position to challenge the Minister in the House. The Minister is allowed to use such terms regarding traders legitimately trading in potatoes from Donegal to Dublin, bringing them into Dublin when they were scarce. They are described as racketeers. Then we have Deputies taking sides with the Minister and abusing the Opposition for vilifying, they say, the Minister. If there is one member, one Minister in particular, who gives vent to all sorts of personal spleen, and in no uncertain terms, it is the Minister for Agriculture; and anything which he may get from this side of the House, or outside the House, he very well deserves. The terms which are used in relation to him are very mild in comparison with those which he himself uses to others.

In regard to the £5,000 loss incurred by the Department last year, the Minister tries to give the impression that he came to the rescue of the people of Dublin. His main idea was to excuse the expenditure and make the public believe it was well spent money. He did not go so far as to indicate to the House or to the public that the main reason and the true cause of the scarcity of potatoes in Dublin last year was the reckless bargaining he carried on earlier in the season, when he oversold the crop, with the result that there was a definite scarcity, which did exist and existed purely as a result of his not having true recourse to the facts at his disposal, that sufficient potatoes would not be grown to meet the English contract of 50,000 tons. Therefore, the £5,000 in this Supplementary Estimate is something which the Minister has imposed on the country through his own incompetence earlier on.

Had he risen in the House and told us that that £5,000 was expenditure as the result of a mistake on his part earlier in the season, we could have understood him; but in his true style, his style best known in this House, when there is a mistake made—and God knows there have been many mistakes made by this Minister for Agriculture—he does not try to give us a reasonable explanation as to why those mistakes were made. Rather does he stand up and abuse people who cannot defend themselves, in the House or elsewhere. That is a wellknown fact, both here and outside, yet we find there are Deputies who feel so sorely for the Minister, when he is being duly and deservedly criticised, that they must rise to take his part and abuse the Opposition for making criticism of things which they see to be wrongly done during the past year.

There is also the question, discussed here at great length on both sides of the House, as to the price of hides and how the fixed price adversely affects the amounts which the people get for their cattle. The Minister makes a song about the situation, and holds out to the House and to the public that if there were a free market for hides it would mean £5 per head more per beast to the producer. In doing that, he does not refer to the fact that the prices to be paid for our cattle are governed by that agreement made in 1948 by the Minister and by the Government, which they then described as a very good bargain. That agreement leaves us in the position that 90 per cent. of our cattle must, perforce, be sold to the British market, with the result that we are not now able to sell our cattle in a free market, and the buyers are not in free competition with each other. Britain holds the monopoly, and very recently the Minister himself stated that we were actually losing £4 per beast to Britain as a result of that agreement. Yet, while admitting the loss of £4 per beast sold to Britain, in other words, £4 per head for 90 per cent. of our exports of cattle, he will come into this House and tell us about the ring which exists in the hide trade, at the moment resulting in a loss of £5 per beast to the farmer. He will talk about £5 more which the farmers would get if there were a free market for hides when, as a result of the restricted market imposed on the farmers by the Minister in the 1948 agreement, we are now receiving £4 per head less for 90 per cent. of our cattle. We could get that £4 per head more if we had an open and free market where the buyers would be free to buy what they wanted at whatever price they wished to pay.

A Deputy

What happened in the economic war?

Mr. Rooney

What was the position in your Government's time?

Mr. Fagan

You do not understand the position.

Mr. Blaney

The Deputy spoke some time ago on this Estimate and his speech has not added to my education on the subject. Whether Deputy Fagan or other Deputies think that I understand or misunderstand the matter, the facts are that we are accepting £4 per head less for 90 per cent. of our exports than we could get if there was an open market for buyers.

Mr. Fagan

We are accepting £4 per head less for our cattle in order to give the people cheap shoes.

Mr. Blaney

Will the House agree that it would be better for us if we never made the 1948 agreement whereby we are now compelled to send nine-tenths of our cattle to Britain irrespective of what other buyers may require? Is it not a fact that after the war and until the 1948 agreement was made we had a position existing in this country which we had long sought for, namely, that we had buyers from different continental countries competing with Britain for our live stock? That is something which we had sought for years and years and which never really materialised until after the war. What happened after the 1948 agreement? We find that nine-tenths of our cattle are being sent to Britain whether we like it or not. How can any Deputy or Minister maintain that we have the same position now as existed prior to 1948, that there is a free market and that all competitors are on an equal footing, when we are compelled to send 90 per cent. of our cattle to Britain? If there is any answer to that I would be very glad to hear it.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Did you ever hear of a continental buyer who could not buy a beast in Ireland?

Mr. Blaney

If Deputy O'Higgins wants to make a speech I will give way. There is no justification for the position which now exists in regard to the sale of our cattle. Under the 1948 agreement we have thrown away that for which we sought for many years; we have given a monopoly to Britain which she had previously built up over the years and which she was very glad to have. While we stick to our side of the 1948 agreement in regard to sending 90 per cent. of our cattle to Britain, she has let us down in regard to one of the items which we were to get in return, namely, coal. Then there is the question of——

A Deputy

Eggs.

Mr. Blaney

We can bring in eggs if we wish. We are now placed in the position which we were supposedly rescued from when the Minister came into office. We find ourselves in a similar position as a direct result of the Minister's Order in opening the Border for all classes of pigs. In regard to that action, we should remember how the Minister has been defended by two very able Deputies from Dublin. We should recall some of the slanderous statements made in the House by the Minister in referring to the bacon curers. What particular spleen he has for these people I do not know. It is like his reference to Deputy Cogan as a scalded cat.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I told the Deputy that the time for referring to these references was when they were made and not now. If the Deputy wishes to discuss the Minister, the proper occasion is on the Vote for his Department in which his salary appears. His salary does not appear on this Estimate.

Mr. Davin

Is it in order to allow Deputy Blaney, in the absence of Deputy Lemass, to defend the bacon curers?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will hear Deputy Blaney on the Estimate.

Mr. Flanagan

Is there not such a thing left as free speech? The man should be allowed to make his speech, whether we agree or disagree with it.

Mr. Blaney

I am glad that the Minister has now come into the House.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy is going to speak about potatoes?

Mr. Blaney

Absolutely.

Mr. Coburn

What about turf?

Mr. Blaney

We shall hear enough about that in due course.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is nothing about turf in this Estimate.

Mr. Blaney

Coming to this question of potatoes, now that the Minister is in the House let me quote what the Minister had to say and the terms which he used in regard to certain people who are not members of this House and who have not an opportunity of replying. As reported in column 1635 of the Official Report for the 8th March, he said:—

"Sub-head M (9) refers to the potato reserve scheme. That money was used for the purpose of breaking a racket which was started in this city towards the end of last year. Some enterprising souls got it into their heads that there was going to be a scarcity of potatoes in Dublin about May or June of last year, and suddenly, where there was an abundance of potatoes, to my knowledge, the vanishing trick took place. There was not a potato to be found. The price of potatoes began to shoot up on the Dublin market and mirabile dictu, as the price rose, a thin trickle began to approach the City of Dublin from the general direction of Donegal. I then took precautions to bring sufficient potatoes into Amiens Street to create a situation in which the Great Northern Railway were not prepared to accept consignments of potatoes from Donegal because their storage in Dublin was packed, and, to my great amusement, a number of public spirited citizens sent urgent messages from a number of stations in Donegal asking what, in the name of God, had happened and why would they not take potatoes....”

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy move to report progress?

Mr. Blaney

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-morrow.