Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Dec 1951

Vol. 128 No. 3

Undeveloped Areas Bill, 1951—Second Stage (Resumed).

Mr. Desmond

We are faced with the outstanding fact that there is a large amount of unemployment, caused through a lack of industrial development in these areas. I feel that this may lead to even greater emigration. When I was speaking last night I made it quite clear that any criticism which I direct towards this Bill is not merely for the purpose of opposing the Bill. Anybody reading this Bill, listening to the speech made by the Tánaiste and taking into consideration the restricted activities allowed to the members of the proposed board, must be honest enough and sincere enough to admit that, even when this Bill passes through the Dáil and the Seanad and becomes law, we cannot hope to do away even with a very small margin of the unemployment that exists in these distressed areas.

The Tánaiste stated that the idea behind the Bill is to try to promote industrial activity in those areas but if we are to do so there are so many factors to be taken into consideration that we must go slowly and carefully through the whole measure and particularly through the evasive— unwittingly perhaps but nevertheless evasive—speech of the Tánaiste. Have we any hope, not to mind guarantee, that the promotion of industry in those districts will ever be successful unless all factors surrounding these suggested industries are taken into consideration? There is unemployment in these districts but there is as much unemployment in other districts which the Minister has specifically kept out of this Bill. I know that further on provision is made in the Bill that, by Order, the Minister may include other areas but that in itself makes the Bill more complicated in so far as the working of the board proposed to be set up under this Bill is concerned. It will automatically mean much slower progress in even getting so far as reaching the stage of even building factories in these districts.

In connection with the powers given to this new body, there is no provision in the Bill so far as I can see, and the Tánaiste gave us no clear indication as to what factors they are to take into consideration. We have no knowledge one way or the other here.

The Tánaiste made a statement to the effect that this board to be set up must, of necessity, give full consideration and base prior assessment on the disadvantages of any locations. I do not want to twist his words but he has not stated what considerations are to be based on the assessment of certain advantages. To me, at any rate, that means that the members of the board and even any technical advisers given to them for their assistance, will have to concentrate to the very fullest possible extent on finding what disadvantages may arise in the securing of an industry in any particular area. I cannot say when, in the life of this Parliament or any other Parliament coming after it, all the disadvantages which can be found will be even fully examined, not to mind surmounted.

We have no indication in this Bill or from the statements made as to what degree this board will be able to go to put into operation any cooperative suggestions offered by the E.C.A. technical advisers if such are forthcoming. Must the suggestions come solely from individuals or groups in the areas where industries may be promoted? The Tánaiste has stated that the board to be set up would have no power of initiation. Apparently they must wait for such moves from local bodies or local groups. Why this board are denied such powers of initiation themselves and obliged to wait for the individual or groups to come forward I do not know. The Parliamentary Secretary has been around the country. I am not objecting to that; I believe it is essential that he should have done so. He has visited various areas and suggestions have been put at his disposal by various groups in various towns all over the country, including, of course, these congested districts. Surely at this stage a full report must be available to the Government and the Tánaiste from the Parliamentary Secretary concerned.

Possibly the weakness inherent in the Bill is the fact that this board to be set up will more or less have to go slow. I do not mean that it is an advised Government policy to them but they will have to wait for individuals or groups in towns all over the congested districts and towns at the other side of that border to come forward with their schemes. That, naturally, means a holding up of the whole scheme and in spite of what the Tánaiste said last night that he was ambitious to get this Bill through the House before Christmas, and through the Seanad, I honestly believe that when it does become law we will be almost as far away from getting industries in these places as we are at the present time.

Another point that I consider requires clarification from the Tánaiste is the statement that the Bill does not apply to those industries or factories at present in the course of construction. I do not know what is behind that. I am not trying to read something drastic or something political into it but surely if this Bill is meant to be a help to those districts and those congested areas, the very first thing we should do is to see that, in the case of any industry at present in the course of construction or even with plans being prepared, if it is possible, such financial help as is necessary will be given to get them going at the earliest possible opportunity. According to the statements made it does not seem as if such help will be forthcoming.

I am yet in doubt about the statement that this Bill may, at a later stage, be applied to other areas by Minister's Orders. That, unfortunately, gives me the idea that this whole Bill and all behind it is nothing but a patchwork quilt and that the Government is trying to make people believe that we are going to give them industries in the very near future. If we are honest and truthful, we must know that it will take years before we can do it. At what stage could such powers be given? Surely they cannot be given unless and until recommendations may come from this board to be set up. Such recommendations cannot be considered from the board until such time as individuals or groups from those other areas may put forward their schemes for industries and until such time as it is found that there is a high degree of unemployment in that district. Before suggestions may come from local bodies under this Bill we are told clearly by the Tánaiste that people in those districts or areas at present excluded must not examine too closely the meaning of "congested district". Therefore, I honestly believe that, under this Bill, there is no hope and never will be any hope that the Minister, no matter what Government he may be in, will ever use the right by Order to extend this scheme or this Bill to areas outside the present areas specified in the Bill.

While we have unemployment in the areas covered by the Bill, it must be admitted that in areas adjacent to these congested districts we have unemployment not alone amongst ordinary workers but amongst a number of young people who are highly skilled. What work can we offer to these people? Must there be a continuation of emigration from these excluded districts or must these workers simply be encouraged to go from areas in which they at present reside into the so-called congested districts? To be quite candid, I cannot see that we are tackling this problem in the vigorous manner that we should. If we are to continue attempting to cure the ills that at present exist in this haphazard fashion, we shall never cure them. While the Tánaiste made it quite clear that any industries set up under this Bill will be safeguarded against competition from outside the country, we know that it will be almost impossible to protect them sufficiently to ensure their success against competition from inside the State. Are we going to delude the people to such an extent as to build these factories and, then, after they have been in operation for a few years, allow conditions to develop which will make these factories nothing but white elephants?

The Minister has mentioned various grants. It is only right to offer such advantages to people who may be prepared to start industries but while it may sound attractive to these people and to the workers who may be employed in these factories, I believe they will find in time that all they can hope for is to be enabled to postpone application for the emigration ticket for which they intended applying. They may stay another few months at home in the hope that they will not require it. The Tánaiste may think that I am trying to damn the Bill and everything connected with it but I am not. I merely want to put forward a number of suggestions, some of which may not be quite workable, but my sole desire is to make this measure an outstanding success. I believe that to achieve that, we must tackle this problem on a far bigger scale than is being attempted at present.

It is stated in the Bill that financial provision will be made for the building of factories or to defray part of the cost of the construction. There is also provision for grants up to 50 per cent. of the cost of the equipment of the factories. These provisions I believe are essential to ensure the success of the Bill. It is stated also that grants are being made available for the training of workers. That is another matter to which I should like to draw attention. First of all, where are they to be trained? Are they to be trained here in Ireland or are they to be sent across the water for training there?

Mr. Lemass

It can be either.

Mr. Desmond

I am not questioning that except in regard to this point. Can we assume, if a certain industry is started in the West of Ireland to produce some commodity that is already being produced by another factory inside this country, that the men coming from the West of Ireland for training will get the best training here in a factory in the East, when it is known that they will ultimately go back to the West to produce a certain article which will compete with the products of the factory in which they are being trained? I shall not go so far as to say that it is wrong to send them for training to such a factory but is there not a danger there? Again if we send these workers to England for training, have we any assurance that an industrial concern in England, which may at present be exporting certain items to this country, will give a proper training to these workers when it is known that they will be producing articles here at home later on to compete against the commodities which that industry has been sending to this country heretofore? I think these are points that the Tánaiste might well consider.

There is another matter which is worthy of the Tánaiste's consideration. We know that many people, some of them highly skilled craftsmen, have had to leave Central Europe and other parts of the Continent for some years past as political refugees. We have an excellent example, of which we read in history, of a similar exodus in the past. We learn that a colony of Italians came to this country at one time as political refugees and settled here in Dublin, where they produced articles and performed work which, in the course of time, came to be regarded as masterpieces. We know also that a certain sect, the members of which had to flee their own country in olden times, landed on the coast of Waterford. The crafts which these people practised and introduced to this country have left their mark even to the present day in the various centres in which they settled. I believe that if such craftsmen are available on the Continent to-day it would be highly advantageous for us to invite them to take up residence in western districts where they could impart their skill to the native population. In that way, we could have our own workers trained as skilled artisans and craftsmen near their own homesteads. I would ask the Tánaiste to consider that suggestion.

The Tánaiste has also stated many times during the debate that this Bill is founded principally on the policy of private enterprise. We appreciate the advantages of having private enterprise engaged in the promotion of industries in the West and in the South-West, but if such private enterprise does not come forward, must we merely tell the people of the statement made by the Tánaiste and that we can hope for no successful industry unless it is conducted solely by private enterprise? We have had the sad experience for many years past of knowing that individuals have turned their backs on promoting industries in many of these areas because they had not what they believed they were entitled to, namely, a full sense of protection and a fair guarantee that they would get a good return for any money they might so invest. If that state of affairs is allowed to continue then we shall be as far away as ever from the provision of industries on our western and southern coast as we are at present.

There should be a provision in the Bill whereby—if private individuals cannot be found to put up the money— the Government would be enabled to set up industries somewhat on the lines of the Electricity Supply Board and other such concerns. If these new industries could be brought to a pitch of fairly good financial standing then industrialists and investors might be found who would co-operate once it was proved to them that such concerns were paying their way and paying a dividend on the money invested in them. It could then be arranged to switch over from the State any concerns that prove they can be kept going—instead of going so far as to put up 50 per cent. of the cost of building and equipping a factory which we do not know will last for five years or 25 years. That, in itself, shows that the Bill is not far-reaching enough.

In his opening speech the Tánaiste used the term "variety of employment". I do not intend to dwell on that matter now as I spoke about it last night except to point out that the term "variety of employment" is, of necessity, restricted in this connection. Apart from Dublin, Waterford, Cork and a few other large cities or towns, the selection, not to mind the variety, of employment that will be left to the other centres will certainly be very restricted. It would seem that the matter will more or less be left for decision to the advisers of the board which is to be set up. It seems that they will decide what industry will suit a particular area or a particular town after considering any propositions put up by the local people.

The Bill, when it becomes an Act, will apply to the west and south-west coast—and also to any areas which the Minister may, by Order, include within the scope of the Act. I hope the Minister will give serious consideration to the claims of areas which are not congested areas but which are depressed areas—areas such as Passage West and Kinsale. I have in mind that in these areas the variety of employment will be restricted—if we want to make a success of it—to four or five different types of employment. We must consider the possibility of improving as much as we can the system of small home industries. I believe it would be a mistake to erect huge factories in areas where the purchasing power of the people in the locality would not meet the output of the new factory. There would be the additional worry that the new factory might not be able to compete financially with the products of other factories of a similar nature more favourably situated in the eastern part of the country. For that reason, I think we should consider the matter of small industries in different localities. We have to consider not only the number of people who would be employed directly but also the amount of money going to these people in wages, the amount of money given to people in areas adjoining that area and the amount of money in circulation within a fair radius of that small centre. I believe that it would help if we could spread small industries over a larger area in these districts.

One potential industry which we could make a real success is the processing of kelp and seaweed. I remember asking a question a few years ago about the report of the committee which was set up many years ago to examine the possible uses to which this important raw material could be put. From reports that we get from other countries we believe that it is possible to make far greater use of the kelp and seaweed which we have in abundance around our western and southern coasts than we have hitherto made of it. It is possible that, from these raw materials, we may be able to start industries of a type which are not in operation in the eastern parts of this country.

We must not forget the turf industry. I believe that in many of the districts which I have in mind, the turf industry could be greatly expanded. We all know that through the amount of turf sold in different localities, through the amount of employment given and through the circulation of a larger amount of money in these areas the turf industry gives some little happiness to people who, otherwise, might not be able to get any form of employment in this country which would keep them in any fair standard of living.

I agree with what Deputy Cowan said last night in regard to the fishing industry. I believe that this body should have power to act on their own initiative rather than have to wait for would-be industrialists or groups of people to come from these areas to point out to them the advantages that would accrue to some of our districts— not alone depressed or congested districts but port towns also—through the development of fishing.

That could be a means of keeping some of our people at home. It is no satisfaction to any of us to go into areas in our constituencies and find that young men and women, whom we may have met on our last visit, have within the space of a few weeks been faced with no alternative but that of going across the water.

If we are to make a success of this Bill we must base it around these problems. We must get from our minds the idea of a high standard of industrial production, Such as we expect from industries in the eastern part of the country which have been established for a number of years. In some of these fishing districts provision has already been made for the improvement of harbours. Surely that could go in full harmony with this Bill. If a harbour is to be developed, is it not natural to assume that this new board would concentrate on the potentialities of such a locality? There was a system in the past called that of the westerly boats, when we had not such a highly developed road service and a great proportion of the transport between one town and another was by water. If these points are remembered by the board, we will have gone half-way to making the Bill a success.

We know that the £2,000,000 is not a final sum, but we also know that there is no proof that that sum will be spent. It may cost £2,000,000, £20,000,000 or £200,000. There is the weakness which Deputy MacBride mentioned last night. It would be advisable to have a full report, half-yearly or yearly, of the advances made by the board. The board should understand that while they can give certain industrialists a sum of money to build factories or can co-operate in the improvement of roads, bridges or railway sidings, these advances are not placed in the custody of the Minister alone, that not only he but every member of this House should know what these advances are. This £2,000,000 is only a trivial sum when we are talking about improving the conditions in these districts. Let no member say, however, that I am ridiculing the provision of £2,000,000. What I want to convey is that this is to be considered only as a start.

If we concentrate here on the improvement of the Bill and give extra powers, if necessary, to the board and the Minister, we would be doing excellent work in saving a section of our people that means so much to us, a section of our people that never knew what it was to live in a sense of comfort, a section of our people who so often had to depend on sons and daughters in America or England, who sent home a few shillings to help to keep the wolf from the door. That economical policy of the past left a bad mark in those areas and perhaps it left a bitter mark in the hearts of many of our people who had to leave the western and southern areas. Let us try to remedy that. There was an old saying: "The wind from the East meant good." At least this movement from the East, from this Parliament of the 26 counties of this nation, even if it is only a starting point, may get stronger as time goes on. Let us forget Party politics in dealing with this section of the community, since otherwise industries suggested by and carried out by political individuals, or factories manned solely by members of political Parties —I am speaking of things I know happened in the past, without saying to what Party they belong—would be detrimental to the success we hope to have under this Bill.

We should adopt this Bill just as a start, as was the phrase used on a notable occasion by a noted Irish statesman, "just a step forward"; then we would be doing something to show the West and South-West—and I hope the Minister will remember the areas he can include by Order—that they are not forgotten by the members of this House.

Dr. Hillery

The problem of the undeveloped areas is a big one and an old one. It has been widely accepted by those who have studied it that the final solution must come from men of vision, courage and enthusiastic interest in what they are doing. This Bill does everything possible to bring to our aid, in fighting this great problem, all the resourcefulness, vision and enterprise of private industry. It brings to our aid attributes which we could never hope to find in the movement of a State Department. The inducements and facilities offered by the Bill can hardly fail to attract to the West people interested in industry. I must congratulate the Minister on the nature of the step he has taken, as well as on taking it in such a short period of time.

I expect to see the effects of this Bill in the near future in County Clare. We have immediate potentiæ which could be put to work almost now. In the east of Clare we have the unused slate quarry; in North Clare the phosphate mines; and all the South-West of Clare has the great prospect of turf development. Along the coast it must surely be possible to establish industries for marine products. At places like Liscannor, Quilty and Carrigaholt, where at one time we had rudimentary industries, we could now hope to see large firms establishing factories for the processing of fish and their preparation for market, the full use of kelp and the preparation for market right at home of carrageen. Apart from these natural encouragements, the Bill gives the same chance to an industry setting up in Clare, or even a better chance, as a similar industry which might be set up in Dublin. For that reason, we can hope that men interested in factories will establish many of these factories in the county and in other counties and thus help to reduce the great congestion which is coming about in Dublin.

My people are eager to participate in the development of industry in the West and I believe that the Department will have available to them sources from which to get advice and information in regard to whatever project they may undertake. I think the eagerness of the people, combined with the facilities offered by the Bill, will almost ensure the successful development of industries in the West of Ireland. If, however, the progress of this development should be slower than we have reason to anticipate, it might be due to the fact that individuals, people with money and a knowledge of industry, and indeed people who might become interested in industry but do not regard it as having a personal call for them at the moment, are not coming together. If we find that this is the case in the course of a year or two, keeping the State out of it as far as we can, some machinery for the organisation and bringing together of people to get down to the practical problems of starting particular industries in particular areas could be established. This machinery could be part of the Department but would be free to act almost as a private body could act.

I do not think that we should work at the moment on the basis of a theoretical flaw in the Bill. It is not really a flaw in the Bill, nor in the enthusiasm with which the Bill has been received—it is just that chance might so happen, that the provisions of the Bill might not be fully used, but if it does arise, I suggest that some such machinery be contemplated. I would not suggest, however, that we should do anything about it now because it is purely theoretical. I assure the Minister that the people of Clare are enthusiastic and that he will receive every co-operation in the great step he has taken. I congratulate him again on the nature of the step— putting to work something which everybody acknowledges to be the successful formula in business—private enterprise.

Mr. Hession

I should like to preface my very few remarks with a hearty céad míle fáilte to this Bill. I welcome it with open arms, because, although it is not a good Bill, so far as the West of Ireland is concerned, in that it does not meet our requirements and cannot possibly hope to do so, I am more or less of a stoic and believe that one crumb is better than no bread at all. I am prepared to welcome any Bill which will put one man more in employment in the West of Ireland and will give full support to any measure which will create a set of circumstances in the West which will induce one person alone who would otherwise decide to emigrate not to do so. I will also give unstinted support to any enactment or statute which will induce or cause one more £ to be siphoned into the West of Ireland and that is one of the prime reasons why I must welcome this Bill.

Some weeks ago, I submitted a question to the Tánaiste concerning the possibility of the establishment of an industry in or about the town of Tuam and I was more than pleased when he informed me that he intended to introduce this Undeveloped Areas Bill in due course. I was also more than gratified to learn that the Bill had a place of high priority on the Government programme. One can only imagine my disappointment and my chagrin when I discovered that the amount of money being set aside for the development of seven counties in the West was £2,000,000. I was really more than disappointed because I believe that it knocks the bottom out of the Bill.

When I saw that, I began to wonder what exactly does the Fianna Fáil Government think of the West of Ireland. Do they regard the lands west of the Shannon as a sort of "hick" belt, a place where the mountainy men live, a sort of Gaelic Tobacco Road, because it is quite obvious that £2,000,000 cannot possibly meet the requirements or satisfy the needs of the West? I imagine that the main purpose of the Bill is in some way to stop or diminish the flow of emigration which undoubtedly is a very disturbing feature of life in the West. There is no need for me to outline the extent or the evils of emigration, because these have been discussed almost ad nauseam in this House; but I was impressed by the very eloquent speech delivered by Deputy Cafferky some weeks ago, when he painted a picture of the flood of emigration from the western counties at the moment. Some people may think he exaggerated, that he overstated the position, that he applied a heavy brush, but I, who live in the West of Ireland, do not think so. I think the picture he painted here was merely a cameo or thumb-nail sketch and did not give the over-all panorama at all.

The Taoiseach, when he came on his famous visit to Seapoint Ballroom some weeks ago and painted his Hogarthian picture of the conditions in which Irish boys and girls have to live in England, must have been aware —because I believe his speech was sincere—of the great flood of people who are leaving, mainly, the western counties. It was en passant, a rather dismal dirge to pipe in the twenty-fifth anniversary of Fianna Fáil at Galway. That is by the way, although it did cause resentment and pain and embarrassment not only to the boys and girls now living in England, through no fault of their own, but to their relatives and friends at home.

This Bill which, I again stress, I welcome, is not in any way a sufficient measure, or a proper or adequate attempt to meet the position in the West. At the moment, I imagine the Tánaiste as a latter-day Canute trying to hold back, with this Undeveloped Areas Bill, this flow of boys and girls from the western counties to England, and, if he is to succeed in any way, if he is to make any visible or real impression on this unfortunate position, it is not £2,000,000 he needs, but maybe £30,000,000, £40,000,000, £80,000,000 or £100,000,000. I do not think I am overstating the position when I suggest that that amount of money is needed, because I believe that it is, in fact, required if a real impression is to be made upon this unfortunate situation.

We come now to the Bill itself. I listened with considerable interest to the Tánaiste introducing this Bill yesterday. Unfortunately, I had not experience—my experience here is not long—of listening to the Tánaiste introducing many Bills. I did think that his introductory speech was doleful. It was a sort of song of defeat, a song of depression and pessimism. He outlined very candidly and very realistically all the flaws, all the difficulties and all the impediments which do and must stand in the way of the successful establishment of industries in the West of Ireland.

If the Tánaiste is going to induce any industrialist, any private enterprise, any person or group of persons to leave the more favourable conditions in the East and South of Ireland and set up shop in the West, I do not think that the outlining, so eloquently done, of all those obstacles and difficulties should have been resorted to by the Tánaiste. His introductory speech may have done more harm to the potential introduction of industries in the West of Ireland than otherwise. I know that he was being realistic about it. I know that he did not do it with any sinister intention. It occurred to me that possibly it was not the best approach. I say that with all respect.

If we are going to spend £2,000,000 —I understand that is only a nominal sum which may be increased or not entirely spent at all—and tackle the problem of industrialisation in the West of Ireland, it is quite obvious that, until rural electrification has extended over the seven counties mentioned in the Bill, certain large areas must now be excluded from its operation and scope. I imagine that, if the purpose of the Bill was, in the main, to stop or diminish the flow of emigration, heavy industries of a permanent nature must be built.

I heard with some amusement Deputy Peadar Cowan suggesting yesterday two good industries which might be established in the West of Ireland under this Bill. One was the development of the poteen industry and the other the development of the tomato industry. The Deputy may have a sense of humour but he asserted he was quite sincere when he suggested that the poteen industry should be developed on a large scale. If poteen were to be distilled on a large scale and if Irish men and women were to avail of the advantages thus afforded them, I think the Border would go in the morning. We could declare war on Russia in due course, using the tomatoes as small arms. That suggestion of Deputy Cowan's is not worth consideration. There is no point whatsoever in erecting jerry-built affairs that will employ boys and girls until they are 19 years of age when they have to leave for fields further away. We must have industries that will employ men rather than girls, employ them permanently and give them an opportunity of settling down to build or have built their own houses to rear their own families. Any other industry which does not make that provision for its employees will not really meet the bill. If this Bill is to be properly adequate we must have the type of industry I suggest.

Last week, a Deputy suggested that this Bill might be a political trick. Deputy Dillon, looking over the clauses of the Bill, was able to hear the rustle of the political skeletons of the five politically deceased Fianna Fáil members as they turned in their graves. That may or may not be so. I am not interested whether it is a political trick so long as it pours money into the West of Ireland and increases employment. I am prepared to make this prophecy, that for some months to come this Bill will not be implemented. This Bill, if passed by the House and the Seanad, will not be carried into practical effect. The £2,000,000 will be hauled round every constituency in the seven counties mentioned in the Bill by Fianna Fáil Deputies or by Fianna Fáil supporters. It will be held as a sort of sword of Damocles over the heads of Fianna Fáil Deputies in the country. It will be hauled round in a bag, marked "manna". They will say: "You will get all this money. This constituency will get £1,500,000 and that constituency will get maybe not so much." I believe that will be done. I think it would be a great pity if such a practice were resorted to because I believe it is about time that Governments gave up being cynical with the people in the West. I think we are entitled to a fair crack of the whip and sincere treatment. I feel this treatment is not embodied in the Bill before us. The £2,000,000 cannot practicably be spent with a hope of political gain.

If, say, £100,000 is spent in the County Roscommon to-morrow morning people further down the country or people in Mayo will kick up a row. There will be delegations—T.D.s and others—coming to the Tánaiste and saying: "What are you going to do with us?" I see that grave flaw. It is no fault of the Minister's but I feel that the practical operation of the Act is going to cause crisis for the Fianna Fáil Party if they, in fact, put it into operation. That is why I honestly say that the Bill, when it becomes an Act, will not be put into practical effect.

I am not going to fall out with the mechanics of the Bill although I have seen flaw after flaw in it. Other Deputies have pointed them out and done so efficiently. I can see plenty of administrative difficulties and practical difficulties. But anything that will stand in the way of this Bill not being put into real effect in the West of Ireland will not have my support. I am speaking for my constituents. They want the money and the industries and, in that respect, anything that can be done to hurry the passage of this Bill will have my ready co-operation and support.

I would suggest—I do not think there was any reference made to this matter by the Tánaiste nor do I think there is any reference to it in the Bill —the establishment of an advisory body, a body which would meet delegations from the various towns and centres, hear their complaints and, having been made aware of the potentialities and actual circumstances of these places, advise them on the type of industry best suited to their need. I think, if the Bill is to be scientifically implemented, that the necessity for having an advisory body is more than apparent. I would suggest that to the Tánaiste if and when this Bill in fact becomes law.

I would like to see this Bill become a real success. In conclusion, I will indulge in the heresy of quoting a Fianna Fáil Deputy who, when referring to the Undeveloped Areas Bill last week, said:—

"In so far as employment is concerned, it is most ardently to be hoped that the Undeveloped Areas Bill will in a short space of time provide employment for the second and third sons of the smallholders in the West of Ireland."

To that I say, Amen.

Mr. McQuillan

Like the last speaker, I also hope to see this Bill meet with success in regard to the development of the West of Ireland. I say I hope. I am not too sure at the present time that it will be of such great benefit as the Tánaiste would have us believe.

In the Bill, undoubtedly there is a challenge to private enterprise. Its terms offer to those who believe in private enterprise great help in the line of grants and financial assistance and with regard to buildings, machinery, the training of staff and so forth. In other words, the Bill is an enticement to private enterprise to go ahead in the West of Ireland. This is where I fall out with the Minister. I do not believe that private enterprise will meet his challenge and it will mean then that whatever Government is in power will have to step in and help to commence these industries with State aid and State control.

Mr. Hickey

You are not far out there, anyway.

Mr. McQuillan

Nobody will be better pleased than myself to see the Minister proved correct regarding this Bill. The sum of £2,000,000 has been mentioned and it has been splashed on the Sunday papers and other papers in order to give the impression that more money is being thrown into the West of Ireland among, as Deputy Hession put it, the wild mountainy men. The impression seems to have been created that the people of the West of Ireland live on doles and have their two hands out all the time looking for something. "Undeveloped areas". is, I think, a good title for the Bill. I am glad that there is no mention in the title of Gaeltacht or congested areas.

Mr. Dillon

There is.

Mr. McQuillan

There is later but not in the title. The title refers to undeveloped areas.

Mr. Dillon

The expression "congested areas" is in the Irish title, "An Ceantar Cung."

Mr. McQuillan

I want to see the ending of the day when the Gaeltacht areas are looked upon as Indian reservations. While Fianna Fáil were in power from 1932 to 1948—I say this without fear of contradiction—no attempt was made to develop industries in the West of Ireland, the idea being that if industrialisation took place there damage would be done to the Irish language and we would lose the way of life existing in the Gaeltacht areas. I do not believe for a moment that if industrialisation takes place in what are known as the Gaeltacht areas the Irish language will suffer. If draining is carried out in the Gaeltacht areas or if the people receive work in factories with decent wages, instead of turning them to the English language it will entice those in the areas who speak English to take up the Gaelic language.

To get back to the point about the £2,000,000 for the West, Deputy Hession has said that he believes this sum to be completely inadequate. He may be going a little too fast. I cannot for the life of me see how any Government could pour in a huge sum of money overnight. There is no reason to my mind why that sum should not be increased when opportunities present themselves.

Let us look for a moment at the progress of industrial development in the West of Ireland since we had a native Government. I do not think that any member of this House having heard these figures could for a moment say that the Gaeltacht areas had received more than their due. Take what happened under the inter-Party reign in their three years of office. In reply to a parliamentary question I put to the former Minister I was told that 156 factories had been established in the country during the inter-Party reign and that of these nine were in the Province of Connacht. The employment given in these 156 factories was 4,000 and out of that 150 individuals got employment in Connacht. I think that speaks for itself and shows how much the previous administration thought of the West of Ireland. Take the over-all picture when Fianna Fáil were in power, under the previous Cumann na nGaedheal Government and under the inter-Party Government too. I am not trying to score over any political Party as I put them all in the one category with regard to the manner in which they neglected the West of Ireland. An analysis of industrial employment in Ireland in a recent year showed that 42 per cent. of our industries were in Dublin and Dún Laoghaire; 20 per cent. were in the rest of Leinster; 26 per cent. in Munster; 5 per cent. in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan and the huge figure of 7 per cent. for the five counties of Connacht. When we consider that in Connacht we have over 17 per cent. of the population of the Twenty-Six Counties and that at the same time their proportion of industries is only 7 per cent., that to my mind proves gross neglect of the West of Ireland.

I am not going to blame different Governments but I do blame individual T.D.s representing the West of Ireland. If they had really spoken in the council chambers of their own Parties, if they had explained matters as they existed in the West, surely no Government would have been neglectful in remedying matters. Surely this is important from the point of view of the over-all picture. There are in Connacht five counties and there are 25 T.D.s for that province. For the City and County of Dublin alone there are 30 T.D.s.

Mr. Hickey

Dublin is Ireland.

Mr. McQuillan

As far as parliamentary representation is concerned the West of Ireland never had a chance from the beginning. As more people left the West of Ireland to go to Dublin, Dún Laoghaire and Leinster, it followed that when a further revision of constituencies was made Dublin would again increase its representation and the West of Ireland lose its population. We will end up by having a dictator for all Connacht, one T.D. living in Galway City.

I am almost afraid of the get-rich-quick merchants and chancers getting in on this Bill, especially when there is such an appeal in the country for industry. There are many towns in the West of Ireland at the moment whose cry is "we want an industry here". Many people are anxious to put money in but there are many who would like to see the Government itself handing over a sum of money to groups in some of these towns so as to allow them to start the industry. I think that that is a very dangerous business. It amounts to State money, taxpayers' and ratepayers' money, being handed over to private persons to make a success or failure as they like. The State, ordinary taxpayers, will have no control over that money once it is handed over to these groups.

That is one of the reasons why the Minister should consider this idea— that where there is a group willing to start an industry and, having gone into all the difficulties, a decision is arrived at that there is a possibility of success, why should the State not go 50-50 with that group in the establishment of the industry? When the industry gets on its feet, is it not possible that many of the workers in the industry, the ordinary men and women employed in it, would be delighted to take shares? I think it would be getting nearer to the ideal type of industrial development and employment, when you would have that factory run on a co-operative basis. It is only by degrees that you would get that. Unless the example is given by the State, I cannot see how it will ever be done.

There is a danger under this Bill of too many things being attempted, too many types of pressure being brought to bear on the particular people in this board. If you like, that is another argument for the Minister in connection with private enterprise. If he really believes that private enterprise is the solution to the problem in the West of Ireland, why not start at bedrock? To my mind he is putting the cart before the horse in giving all these grants to private industrialists, private enterprise and so forth.

The best way to entice investment by private enterprise in the West of Ireland is to start at Galway City. Under the Bill, there is authority to develop the port. I think it was Deputy Desmond who mentioned that if proper harbour facilities were made available, industries would automatically arise. I do not believe that the right move is to put a small industry into town X, ten or 15 miles from Galway City, and another small industry another ten or 15 miles away. I think industries will automatically arise if, taking Galway City as a typical example, that port were properly developed. I understand that the sum of £370,000—I am subject to correction—has been allocated by the Department for the purpose of enlarging the docks in Galway. Although I am a representative of Roscommon, I know as much about Galway City as I do about my own constituency. I am at home in Galway equally as I am at home in Roscommon. It is on that account that I speak on behalf of Galway here and add my voice to the voice of the Deputies who represent the West. I believe that if Galway City and harbour are properly developed, my constituency will also be developed. The development of an industry in Roscommon town will automatically arise as a result of Galway getting proper treatment, the treatment that it deserves.

There is quite a possibility, given a bit of courage on the part of the Minister, that Galway could be made one of the finest ports in Europe. We know that it is the nearest port of call for the large transatlantic liners from America and Canada. For many years prior to the war, American and German companies were anxious to secure facilities in Galway because they believed in crossing the Atlantic in the shortest possible space of time. My information with regard to these lines is that they want to complete their journey in the shortest space of time and it is barely a three-day journey from some American ports to Galway harbour.

I see no reason in the world why money could not be spent to develop Galway harbour properly. If that were done, there would be the American passenger trade. Passengers would be disembarking in Galway and air services could be provided to take them in two to three hours to London or other destinations in England. There could also be expansion of railway services and road services. Once the harbour is developed and transatlantic liners can berth in the harbour it means automatically that other shipping lines will follow and that cargoes and so forth will come in.

Have not you there the foundation for the establishment of industry by private enterprise? Is not that the right way to tackle it? The moment industrialists see harbour facilities available in the port they will set up industries in Galway and will not need 50 per cent. or any other sort of grant from the Department.

The trouble I see with regard to the development of Galway is that the vested interests in the Port of Dublin would be enough to prevent the expansion of Galway. I think that is the danger. We have at the moment a bottle-neck in Dublin, while at the same time there is an opportunity to make Galway one of the finest ports in Europe.

I do not know if the Minister is familiar with some of the recommendations that were made as far back as 1923 by the Galway Chamber of Commerce and by very prominent engineers, including Professor Rishworth, that a new pier be built in Galway. They estimated that the whole development work would cost something in the region of £2,500,000 to £2,750,000. I am sure that to-day the same work would cost about £7,000,000. That sounds a large figure but the work would be spread over five to seven years. Consider the employment it would give in the meantime. To-day Galway is a boom town. There is £1,500,000 or £2,000,000 being spent there at the moment on a hospital and sanatorium. In two years it will be a ghost town. The men employed on that work have brought their families into Galway — tradesmen, experts in their various departments, plasterers, plumbers, ordinary labourers. Where will they all go?

Instead of nibbling at this question of developing Galway harbour, the Minister should embark on a courageous scheme, on a big scheme, instead of this miserly scheme to spend £370,000 that will help only to fit another ship in behind the Dun Aengus.

I make these suggestions to the Minister with regard to the industrial development of the West because I would not like the Bill to be a failure. That is the main reason why I am pressing the Minister to start at the foundation, that is, the development of Galway harbour. Then there will be industrial expansion automatically. Forget about dotting little factories all over. The real solution for Connemara after that is tourism and afforestation, but, in addition to tourism and afforestation, there is the second greatest source of national wealth all along the western coastline, namely, fishing. There is grave divergence of opinion in this House with regard to deep-sea fishing, but I believe that Galway Port should be the headquarters of deep-sea fishing. If you want further industries in the West, put canning industries into operation, where surplus fish would be processed and turned into fish meal, and so forth.

Deputy Hession said a few minutes ago that Deputy Cowan referred to poteen last night. I am not going to stand up for Deputy Cowan. He is well able to do that for himself. But I wonder is the Minister aware that there was a considerable amount of malting barley grown in Connemara in years past and, of course, that barley was used for distilling poteen. When the law began to look harshly on those who made poteen the first people the law looked at were those who grew barley. They naturally began to get wise and ceased growing barley, but they did not stop making poteen. Instead of barley, they turned to treacle, sugar and bluestone.

Mr. Dillon

That is a new raw material for poteen.

Mr. McQuillan

Bluestone has been used. That is one of the reasons why people are not in their senses at times when speaking of Connemara and other matters in this House.

Mr. Dillon

He would be a hardy man who would drink it.

Mr. McQuillan

I suggest to the Minister that there may be quite a lot in what Deputy Cowan said. People should not criticise his suggestion who do not know the first thing about the poteen industry. The fact is that poteen is being made in the West and it will be made, and the more you forbid it, the more it will be made. I think that there you have a grand opportunity so far as Irish-Americans are concerned. Why not allow these people to grow barley there for the purpose of making poteen? It is as good as Scotch whisky. Scotch whisky started by being made in small houses and cabins in Scotland. To-day it is being made by combines.

Mr. Hickey

You will kill the poteen trade by what you are saying.

Mr. McQuillan

It is a home industry. I see nothing wrong with sending bottles of it labelled "Irish poteen" to Irish-Americans; they would lap it up. There is one question which I want to ask the Tánaiste in connection with this board he is setting up and I will be anxious to hear his reply. There has been a lot of talk in this House for a number of years, at any rate since I have had the privilege of being here, about decentralisation. Every Government has said: "We are going to decentralise; we will transfer some Department down the country." I should like the Tánaiste to tell me where the headquarters of this new board will be.

Mr. Dillon

Sráid Cilldara.

Mr. McQuillan

As this board will be dealing with the undeveloped areas, its headquarters should be in the West and I think it should be set up in Galway. Otherwise, we are only talking foolishly in this House about decentralisation. There can be no excuse with regard to this particular body. It is not the same as taking the Land Commission out of Dublin. They are already established there and you would want to blow them out of it. This is a new body which has not yet got dug in in any particular quarter. I see no reason why they should not have their headquarters in Galway. I am very anxious to get the Minister's reply to that.

Mr. O'Higgins

They will be well situated anyway.

Mr. McQuillan

A large part of Roscommon, which I represent, cannot be described as a congested area. That is one of the reasons why I am glad the word "undeveloped" is used in the Bill. The fact that there is not as much congestion in Roscommon as in other counties does not mean that there is full employment there or anything like that. I do not know whether Deputies realise that there are quite a number of small towns in Roscommon and that there is not even one factory in the whole county.

Mr. Dillon

There are two.

Mr. McQuillan

I always understood that the people of Ballaghaderreen claim that they are in County Mayo. In the other towns in Roscommon there is no industrial employment for the young men and women in the towns and the surrounding areas. That is one of the reasons why I like the title of this Bill. The Minister is not confined to the areas mentioned. If he wishes at a later stage he can apply it to areas outside those mentioned in the Bill. That is a very good thing to have included in the Bill.

Finally, I would ask the Minister seriously to consider the question of the possibility of running it on a proper basis. If there is an industrial planning group in a town willing and anxious to get a factory and they have not sufficient money to start with—I do not suppose this is really possible under this Bill—the Minister should go 50-50 with that group. In other words, the State should take part in it as well as private enterprise. After a lapse of time, when that particular industry gets on its feet, the State should hand over its share in the control of the factory to other local people who would buy shares in small lots. I do not want to see any development in the West which would mean the setting up of an industry by a few speculators anxious to make a profit in two or three years and then get out, an industry that would give employment of the type that exists in certain parts of the West paying a real slave wage. It is quite possible for industrialists to get away with that in parts of the West because the trade unions have not done anything like real organisation work there. It is possible to get girls there to work in factories at a wage which I would be ashamed to mention in this House. I would not like to see anything like that happening under this Bill, because it would be as well for the people who would have to work in such factories to emigrate. They possibly would emigrate and thus the whole thing would fall through. I wish the Minister luck with regard to this Bill and I hope that I will be proved wrong with regard to the response he will get from private enterprise in connection with it.

Mr. J. Brennan

The debate we had in this House last week on the Estimate for the office of the Parliamentary Secretary more or less anticipated the debate on this Bill and, having contributed to that debate, I do not propose to delay other Deputies who are anxious to speak, beyond making a few remarks in relation to this Bill.

In the first place, I want to congratulate the Minister on the introduction of this Bill. We have in it something that is long overdue. It is the first real attempt ever made to give practical expression to that high-sounding phrase we hear so often, the decentralisation of industry. I believe the Bill contains sufficient inducements to make this scheme a success. I do not think as other Deputies seem to think that the Bill will put an end to development along the western seaboard in other directions. There is no reason why afforestation, the fishing industry, land reclamation and all the other schemes necessary to improve the lot of the people in these areas should not continue to be developed side by side with any benefits which may accrue from the enactment of this measure.

I am not pessimistic about results. I believe the Bill will have the desired effect. I believe the Minister and the Government will ensure that there will be industrial development generally speaking in so far as it is possible to foster such development by Government assistance and protection. Under the provisions of this Bill I think there are sufficient concessions and inducements to ensure that such development in future will be decentralised. We have been waiting for that for years. We have for years watched the east coast drawing the population like a magnet from the western seaboard and leaving us bereft of the benefits and advantages we had every right to expect.

Deputy McQuillan referred to the effect this Bill may have on the restoration, preservation and expansion of the Irish language. Two types of areas are proposed for development under this Bill. I believe that the Fior-Ghaeltacht requires specialised treatment and I would appeal to the Minister to ensure that Foras Tionscail will take every care that industrial development in these areas will not have the effect of anglicising them instead of helping to preserve the language. There is that danger inherent in industrialisation of the Gaeltacht. I do not say that with any intention of restricting the scope of this Bill but merely to instil into the Government the necessity for taking special care to prevent certain industries being established in the Gaeltacht. It is possible that a certain industry anxious to take advantage of the concessions given in this Bill might bring with it a set of officials, supervisors, technicians or staff which might conduct the affairs of the industry through the medium of English.

Mr. O'Donnell

Or even southern Irish.

Mr. J. Brennan

Since the Bill provides for the training of personnel I believe the Minister has taken precautions against such eventualities. I believe the personnel in these industries should be trained native Irish speakers capable of managing their own affairs. In that way the Bill would not tend to anglicise the Gaeltacht.

I believe the Minister should keep in mind the fact that we in Donegal are bordered by three unfree counties. It is vitally important from the national point of view that proper development should take place in our county. I do not think we should be left in the position where those in Northern Ireland can point at us and say that our men and women have to go across to them to find employment. I believe Donegal requires special attention. An effort should be made to ensure that not a single unemployed person is left along the Border. That will be very important eventually from the point of view of solving Partition.

Deputy McQuillan referred to the development of Galway harbour. He said it should be utilised in order to improve the western seaboard as a whole. In Donegal we do not require any deep sea harbour. We have one of the best harbours in Europe at Killybegs, thanks to the generosity of the previous Fianna Fáil Government. That harbour provides facilities at the moment which compare favourably with any in Europe. I say that without fear of contradiction. That harbour should be utilised to the fullest possible extent. If we are to have the desired expansion in industry in Donegal that must eventually tend towards the better development of the existing facilities there.

Mr. O'Donnell

Irish Shipping should note that.

Mr. J. Brennan

I have no doubt special note will be taken of that. I believe that once an industry is established in a district, even though its employment potential may be small, the hope and confidence it gives to the people is incalculable. It inspires them with a certain pride and interest in their own native district and they come in time to appreciate the fact that they have as good a livelihood there as they would find anywhere else. I am not so pessimistic as other Deputies, who prophesy that the Bill will not have the desired effect in attracting a sufficient number of industries to these depressed areas. I am sorry so many Deputies have wrongly assumed that this is a political stunt, but I was glad that most of them prefaced their remarks by saying that it was a good stunt. Even if it is a political stunt it is still a good stunt. I do not care what the Deputies opposite think. I am inclined to think that the fact that they are condemning the Bill, or are accusing us of having political motives behind it, is in itself proof that there is something good in it, because whenever something good is proposed then, naturally, our opponents will suspect, or will try to suggest, that it is being done for political purposes. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.