I have been asked to raise a certain point, and I have raised it on a number of occasions. It is in regard to teachers who are known as junior assistant mistresses, post-1921. I am informed there are two types of junior assistant mistresses, —pre-1921 and post-1921—and that there is £100 difference in remuneration between them. The pre-1921 class gets £100 more than the post-1921 class, although the latter does the same work, carries the same responsibility, and looks after the same size of classes. I do not know how many are involved —I do not think it is a very great number—but it seems unjust and unfair that there should be a difference in remuneration of as much as £100 a year. I do not think there should be any difference. As I have been asked to make the point on the Estimate, I do make it, and I make a very strong recommendation and request to the Minister that the post-1921 junior assistant mistress is remunerated in the same way as the pre-1921 teacher of the same class.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 39—Education (Resumed).
Glacaim buíochas leis an Aire, mar dhuine de na Teachtaí a bhí ag éisteacht leis tráthnóna inné, nuair léigh sé amach an ráiteas ar Vóta 39, Oifig an Aire Oideachais. Labhair sé go soiléir blasta binn inár dteangain féin agus measaim, Teachta ar bith nár thuig é agus nár thuig gach a léigh sé níorbh fhiú a rá go bhfuil focal Gaeilge aige nó, ar aon nós, g bhfuil Gaelige ó dhúchas aige.
Nuair a chuaigh mé go dtí mo theach lóistín aréir, léigh mé an rud a léigh sé, an dara uair, agus níl faitíos orm roimh aon Teachta anseo, roimh dhuine ar bith sa tír seo a bhfuil Gaeilge líofa aige, níl faitíos orm roimhe, a rá go bhfuil Gaeilge chomh binn soléir blasta sa pháipéar sin agus a léigh mise riamh. Sílim go bhfuil eolas agam, agus go dtuigim ceard atá mé a rá, maidir le Gaelige ar chuma ar bith.
Is é an fáth go ndúirt mé sin mar, nuair a bhí an tAire réidh lena chuid cainte, sheas Teachta anseo, sheas sé suas, agus dúirt sé gur Gaeilgeoir ó dhúchas é, go raibh Gaeilgeoir eile in aice leis, agus nár thuig siad ach an ceathrú cuid den mhéid adúirt an tAire. Bhímise anseo. Thuig mé gach uile fhocal—agus arís gním comhghairdeachas leis an Aire, agus comhghairdeachais ar leith leis na daoine, nó an duine, a chuir é seo i dtoll a chéile.
Ina dhiaidh sin, labhair Teachta eile as Contae Mhuigheo, an Teachta Ó Cafferky, agus tá brón orm agus uafás orm faoin rud adúirt sé. Dúirt sé gur tháinig sé as ceantar áirithe i gContae Mhuigheo agus nach raibh muintir an cheanntair sin ag iarraidh Gaeilge ar bith sna scoíleanna atá ansin. Bhí mise ag múineadh Gaeilge sa cheantar ceanann céanna sin. B'fhéidir go bfuil sé fadó shoin ach is féidir liomsa a rá—agus tá mé os cionn triochadh blian ag múineadh Gaeilge—go raibh ranganna Gaeilge agam ansin a bhí níos fearr ná mar bhí in aon áit eile a raibh mé ag múineadh na Gaeilge ann sa tír seo. Sín sa gceantar ar dhúirt seisean nach raibh siad ag iarraidh Gaeilge ar bith ann agus go raibh an Ghaeilge chéanna ag cur an droch-bhail ar an oideachas i gContae Mhuigheo. Níl fhios agam ceard a tháinig ar Chontae Mhuigheo ó d'fhág mise é—ach is cinnte nach gcreidim an rud adúirt an Teachta sin.
Anois, is é an rud ba chóir dúinn a dhéanamh scrudú coinsiais a dhéanamh orainn féin. Tá oideachas Gaelach ag teastáil uainn. Tá sé ag teastáil uaimse ar chuma ar bith—agus tá chuile dhuine anseo, nó tá chuile phairtí anseo, ag rá go bhfuil siad ar thaobh na Gaeilge. Cé labhair Gaeilge anseo ó thainig sé isteach sa Tig seo? Cé hiad na Teachtaí anseo a bhfuil Gaeilge acu agus faitíos orthu Gaeilge a labhairt anseo nó go bhfuil náire orthu í a labhairt? Eiríonn duine agus cainteoir ó dhúchas é agus ní bhíonn ach an dá fhocal Ghaeilge le rá aige—"A Chinn Chomhairle" nó "A Leas-Cheann Comhairle." Sin an méid. Sin an meas atá acu ar Ghaeleachas agus ar an nGaeilge. Ansin deireann siad arís agus arís eile: "Tá mé ar thaobh na Gaeilge agus oideachas Gaeleach."
Cuíd againn tá muíd ag dul thart ag iarraidh gach duine sa tír seo a ghríosú chun Gaelachais le fada an lá agus molaimse do na Teachtaí atá anseo dul ar ais go dtí a gcuid ceantar féin, dul ar ardán agus a rá le muintir a gceanntair féin go bhfuil siad freagarthach as an nGaeilge, a rá le tuismitheoirí meas a bheith acu ar an nGaeilge, ar oideachas trí Ghaeilge. Má dhéanann siad é sin, geallaim díbhse a cháirde anseo, má thaispeánann sibhse an dea-shampla go leanfaidh na daoine sin agus gur furasta dóibh é sín a dhéanamh. Ach tá faitíos orm nach oideachas Gaelach atá uainn. Tá Teachtaí ag dul thart ag rámhaillí agus ag bolscaireacht ar fud na tíre seo agus deirimse—agus is fíor-chorr-uair a labhraim—gur beag meas atá acu ar an oideachas nó ar an nGaeilge. B'fhearr leo cúpla vóta a tharraint chucu féin ná an Ghaeilge. An t-aon dia atá acu: "cé mhéid vóta a gheobhas mé as ucht na hóráide sin?" Buíochas le Dia go bhfuil Teachtaí eile anseo seachas iad siúd.
Bhí mé ag éisteacht le Teachta amháin agus dúirt sé nach raíbh oideachas dá laghad ag na páistí scoile i láthair na huaire. Dúirt sé, ní hé amháin nach bhfuil oideachas acu, ach nach bhfuil dea-bhéasa ná deaiompar acu. Deirimse leis an Teachta sin nach ndéanfadh sé dochar ar bith dó dul ar scoil arís. Breathnaímis ar an scéal. An múinteoir scoile agus an mháistreás scoile is daoine nádúrtha iad, daoine a rugadh agus a tógadh díreach mar muid féin. Chaitheadar blianta i gcoláistí agus ansin chuadar amach ag déanamh a gcuid oibre ag múinteoireacht. Tá daoine sa tír seo— agus ní hiad na gnáth-dhaoine iad ar chor ar bith—a déarfas "Diabhal blas ar bith atá le déanamh aige sin. Téann sé isteach sa scoil agus níl tada le déanamh aíge ón a naoi a chlog go dtí a trí a chlog tráthnóna, go n-imíonn sé abhaíle arís. Is breágh an saol atá aige." Tá faitíos orm go n-abrann daoine seachas an gnáth-dhuine é sin. Más rud é go n-abrann—agus tá fhios agam go n-abrann—is mór an scannal é. Sín daoine nach dtuigeann obaír an mhúinteora; sin daoine nach dtuigeann tada; sin daoine nach dtuigeann nach bhfuil obair an mhúinteora réidh nuair a fhágas sé nó sí an scoil, go bhfuil obair le déanamh ag na daoine sin, b'fhéidir go dtí a deich a chlog, ag iarradh réitiú in aghaidh an lae amáraigh nó na seachtaine seo chugainn. Ní cheapann daoine é sin agus tá faitíos orm gur beag imní atá sé á chur orthu. Téann an múinteoir sin isteach chuig an scoil fhuar, fholamh, shalach ar maidin, agus chonnaic mé go mion minic iad. Nuair atáim ag caint ba mhaith liom é seo a rá: níor cheart do mhúinteoir ar bith a bheith freagarthach faoi ghlanadh na scoile, teinte a chur sa scoil ná rud ar bith dá shórt. An obair atá ar mhúinteoir ar bith dul isteach sa scoil agus a chuid oibre a dhéanamh ag múinteoireacht agus gan tada eile a dhéanamh ach é sin. Níl fhios agam cén deontas a thugas an Roinn Oideachais le haghaidh glanadh na scoile in aghaidh na bliana, ach chuala mé go bhfuil sé chomh suarach sin nach mbeadh sé ín ndon cró muice a ghlanadh. Is mór an scannal, is mór an náire, a leithéid seo a bheith ag tarlú sa mbliain 1952. Tá súíl le Dia agam go mbeidh muid í ndon duine éigin a fháil a chónaíos in aice na scoile, an duine sin a íoc íonas go mbeidh sé i ndon an scoil a ghlanadh agus a scuabadh tráthnóna, aer breá, folláín a ligínt isteach ann ar maidin agus tine a fhadú ionas go mbeidh deis ag an máistir, nó ag an mháistreás bualadh isteach ansin agus a chuid oibre a dhéanamh gan tada eile ag cur imní air.
Tá daoine eile ann agus ceapann siad go bhfuil an máistir nó an mháistreás ag fáil an iomarca tuarastail ar fad. Duine ar bith a thuígeas an scéal níl sé ar aon intínn leo. Chuala mé uair amháin: "Cé'n fáith a ardódh sibh tuarastal an duine sin? Nach bhfuil gluaisteán aige?" Tá gluaisteán anois ag madraí an bhóthair. Ní cruthúnas saibhris gluaísteán a bheith agat.
Anoís níor mhaith liom chur ísteach oraíbh go mór agus tiocfaidh mé go dtí an t-oideachas gairme beatha. Tá rud amháin a chuireas imní orm, mar bhí mé féin ag plé leis: go mbíonn múinteoirí gaírme beatha ag plé le múinteoireacht oiche Dé Sathairn amuigh faoín d uaidh. Ba mhaith liom go n-eisteodh an tAire go haireach liom anois. Nuair a bhí mé ag plé leis tháinig na scoláirí isteach chugam ach má bhreathnaítear ar rollaí oíche Dé Sathairn geallaim don Aire go mbíonn an tinreamh glan an oíche sin. Bíonn go leor le déanamh ag daoine oíche Shathairn go mór mhór amuígh faoin dtuaidh. Tá réiteach le déanamh acu in aghaidh maidin an Domhnaigh agus ba cheart go gcuirfí deire le obair ar bith oiche Shathairn.
Anoís maidir le hoideachas, tá locht amháin agamsa, agus is é locht é nach bhfanann na scoláirí sáthach fada ar scoil. Tá gach páiste scoile i láthair na huaire ag faire ar an lá go mbeidh sé ceithre blíana déug d'aois, agus ansin an doras amach leo agus cuírtear an milleán ar an máistír agus ar an máistreás. Fadó ní raibh a leithéid de scéal ann. Is cuimhin liom nuair bhí mise ar scoil go bhfanadh na páistí ar scoil go dtí go mbeadh seacht mbliana déag d'aois sroiste acu. Anois tá na páistí ag feitheamh leis an lá go mbeidh ceithre bliana deag d'aois sroiste acu agus ansin buaileann siad bóther agus bíonn deire le hoideachas dóibh. Ba mhaith liom comhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh le gach cineál múinteora sa tir seo mar tá ár n-oideachas níos fearr, agus i bhfad Éireann níos fearr, ná an t-oideachas í Sasana agus in Albain; tá níos mó eolais ag na páistí. Tá ár mbuíochas tuillte ag múinteorí na tíre seo, agus níl aon dul uaidh sin. Tá faitíos ormsa go bfágann páístí an scoil ró-luath. Dár líomsa, ba cheart go mbeadh dlí ann chun iachall a chur ar chuile pháiste, buachaillí agus cailiní, freastal ar scoil go dtí go mbeidh siad sé bliana déag d'aois ar a laghad. Ansín ni bheadh an chaint seo ar síúl nach bhfuíl oídeachas ar bith sa tír anois. Duíne ar bith adéarfas go raibh sin amhlaidh, tá faitíos orm go mba cheart dó dul chun an dochtúra agus a cheann a thomhas. Nuair a fhágas na páistí an scoil, sin é an t-am is contúirtí maidir le hoideachas agus maidir le ceist na Gaeilge. Níl aon áit le dul acu, go mór mhór amach faoin tuaith. Níl rud ar bith le déanamh acu ach siúl thart ó theach go teach. Deirtear: "Ní cloistear focal Gaeílge." Ní mheasaim gur fíor é sín. Mholfainn don Aire agus don Roínn Oideachais—ní chosnódh sé morán—halla amháin a thógaint i ngach paróiste ina bhféadfadh na daoine óga, le cois múinteoir Gaeilge, teacht le chéile. Sé an t-aon ríal amháin a bheadh ag teastáil ná nach labharfaí focal ar bith Béarla an fhaid a bheadh siad ann. D'fhéadfai drámaí a léiriú, leabharlann a chur ar fáil, cártaí agus táiplis agus rudaí mar sin a imirt. Ba cheart go mbeadh an rud go léir faoi stiúrú duine údarásach a bheadh ag siúl timpeall ag féachaint chuige nach mbeadh teanga ar bith dá labhairt ach ár dteanga féin. Ansin, ní bheadh sé le rá ag Teachta ar bith, tar éís bliana nó mar sin, nach bhfuil le cloisteáil ach Béarla agus Béarla amháin ós na páistí nuair a fhágann siad an scoil. Sé an rud atá in easnamh ar na páistí ná caitheamh aimsire. Níl ag teastáil uathu ach duine chun iad a stiúrú. Chítear dom go mbeadh cailiní agus féin a dhéanamh ach stiúrú ceart a bheith ar fáil acu.
Molaimse do gach Teachta anseo comhartha na Croise a ghearradh air féin agus an cheist seo a chur ar féin; "An bhfuil mise ar thaobh na Gaeilge, nó an é an caoi nach bhfuilim?" Is féidir leis magadh a déanamh fúmsa, ach an duíne a dhéanfas magadh faoi féin, tá an diabhal déanta aige air féin. Iarraim ar gach Teachta atá anseo dul abhaile, gabháil amach chuig na daoíne a chuir anseo sibh, agus comhairle a chur orthu. Má dhéanann sibh é sin. beídh ar bhur gcumas a rá le fírinne: "Rinneas mo chion féin. Níor chlis sibh riamh ormsa maidir le Gaeilge, agus má dhéanann sibh bhur ndícheall as seo amach ní chlisfidh sibh ormsa maidir le hoideachas."
There are one or two points with which I would like to deal. The first is the peculiar position of the teachers who retired prior to the 1st January, 1950. They found themselves at a total disadvantage compared with the people who retired at a later date and in comparison with their poor brethren in Northern Ireland. I feel that they should be entitled to the benefits in this connection enjoyed by other teachers. I realise, of course, that for that purpose money would be required. However, one donation or gift of money would deal with the whole thing, as it would not be recurrent. I would be pleased if the Minister would give that matter his consideration. These teachers experience the same difficulties as everybody else these days in trying to make ends meet. A lot of them are, perhaps, passing through the most expensive period of their career—trying to educate their families and do well for them.
I would like to say a few words on the subject of the vacation in our primary schools. I do not know a great deal about national schools generally, but it seems to me that in the country districts holidays take place at any time. It also appears to me that in comparison with other grades of education, the primary schools get very short periods of vacation. I feel that the period should be extended and especially in the summer months. It is pointless to be keeping children at school throughout the warm summer months when they could be out enjoying themselves, and enjoying the sunshine which would benefit their health. Surely, some standardised time, say July and August, could be fixed for summer vacation for national schools. That would seem to meet the question.
Cleaning and heating seems to me to be one of the outrages of the system operating with regard to national schools. One sees small children struggling along the roads with a bundle of sticks or bringing on their backs a load of turf for the purpose of heating the school. There seems to be no definite system operating here with regard to the question of heating the national schools. I believe that some small sum should be allocated to the manager for heating purposes. Surely we could have some system whereby the expenses of that could be borne by the local authority, and possibly the Department itself might consider assisting in the matter of the cleaning of schools.
In regard to our schools, I would nearly go so far as to say that some of them are scarcely fit for human habitation. I have been in one or two schools where there is water pouring down from the roof; there is a bad floor in them; one of those open fireplaces where all the heat races up the chimney and very little goes out to the schoolroom itself. It is heated with a few sods of turf which the unfortunate children probably gather on their way in. I think the Minister should consider that, as I stated before, a local authority should be asked to deal with it.
I believe in leaving the control of schools and the control of all these matters under the present managerial system. I believe it is a good system and it suits this country well, and the Minister might possibly consider setting up a consultative board to consider this heating and cleaning question, consisting of representatives of managers, representatives of the Department of Education and of the National Teachers' Organisation themselves.
I would like to say a few words on subsidised transport. I do not think we have enough subsidised transport in this country. In my youth, we used to see children pattering along the road in their bare feet to school, having left home, in a great many cases, early in the morning. It still occurs. I understand that the regulations insist on a certain number of school hours being put in every day. The hours in the winter months, therefore, cannot be altered and a lot of those children who have to travel two or three miles to school have to leave early in the morning, have to spend a whole day in school and, for the reasons I have stated before, with regard to heating, and so forth, often are shivering in school; and it is late before they get home in the evening. In some cases we have subsidised transport but we have not got enough. You would find it would be money well spent. If children are brought to school by transport they are brought to school dry and brought home from school dry; they will grow into healthy, virile men and women and there will be less of a charge on the State in the long run for diseases such as tuberculosis and so forth.
Lastly, I would like to say a few words about vocational education. I do not think that the vocational teachers are paid a proper salary. I confess that I do not know a tremendous amount about it but I believe there is some form of arbitration on at the moment. The proof that they are not paid a salary commensurate with their services is that you cannot get vocational teachers in my constituency. Where a new vocational school has recently been built in the county I was approached so that they could have some classes for the summer. It was in connection with homecrafts, and I communicated with the chief executive officer locally. He replied that he was very sorry he could not give the class because they had not got a teacher to teach. The case applies very much, I think, all over the country. There is not enough money in the bill for vocational education. There is not enough money paid to the vocational teachers and, therefore, vocational education is not going ahead as it should in this country. It is one of our most important needs. The speaker who has just sat down— I am not a very fluent Irish scholar myself; I could not follow him very closely—stressed the fact that when children leave school at 14 they are very often at a loose end up to the age of 16. It is when they leave school at 14 that the vocational school is very useful to them.
I would ask the Minister to be generous in any allocation he makes to these vocational schools, to encourage them in every way he can, because it gives children not only an opportunity of learning about mechanical appliances, carpentry or crafts, but it also gives them an opportunity of learning things that are very useful to them, things relative to the soil. There is no need for me to stress the point that in the working of the soil to-day mechanisation is the thing that is going to go ahead into the forefront and has done so. It is in these technical classes they can learn those things. Therefore, I ask the Minister to do what he can for the vocational schools.
It would be natural for me as a teacher and as an Irish speaker to speak on this Estimate in Irish, but I am not going to do so for the reason that on that subject of Irish I do want to bring home to every Deputy in the House and to the Minister the fact that notwithstanding all the effort, the energy and the expense that have been put into the building up of the Irish language over the last 30 years, we have not yet succeeded in establishing that the Irish language will become the spoken language of this country in the foreseeable future. We are not at all making the advances that should be made. At the moment Irish appears to be a kind of Sunday suit that has to be worn on special occasions. It is only on occasions like this when a debate on education comes before the House that Irish is inclined to be used. Outside it is only by people connected with education that Irish is used. A vast number of our people have a good knowledge of Irish, but only a fraction of those who have a knowledge of Irish use it on occasions when it could be used. We seem to have entered into a period which is lacking in enthusiasm and, in some cases, I would go so far as to say that many people who speak Irish are ashamed to use it.
I suggest that an inquiry should be held into the methods adopted for the resurrection of the Irish language over the last 30 years. That is necessary because I know that a good deal of lipservice is being paid to Irish. If the Minister were aware of the things which are happening in regard to the figures given to his Department for grants for Irish speakers—people who are supposed to speak Irish in the home and in the schools—and the figures which are given for the subjects taught through the medium of Irish, I think that an inquiry would be warranted. We are fooling ourselves by producing figures for these things. One can prove nearly anything by statistics, and something more than statistics is required.
There must be a different method of approach. Certainly something must be done over and above what has been done during the last 20 years. I admit that much work has been put into the revival of the Irish language but nothing like what should have resulted has resulted from that effort. Even in the Six Counties much faster progress is being made. In the City of Belfast and in the City of Derry, where Irish classes are carried on, I find that you will meet persons who will be able to converse in Irish. They attend their Irish classes and their céilí dances. It is often said that if Irish were banned greater progress would be made. There is no use in sitting back and hoping that the energy and money being expended at the moment will have good results unless there is a change of approach.
In dealing with this Estimate, I shall confine myself to the part which deals with primary education. I find that only a few pages of the Minister's statement were devoted to primary education. That is unfortunate, because primary education is of vast importance in this country. The majority of our people up to now have been unable to get any other kind of education. I must say that the teachers and all those connected with primary education have behind them a record to be proud of. I was surprised that a Deputy should come in here and cast aspersions on the work which has been done and is being done by the primary teachers. Although the teaching of Irish accounts for a good deal of our time in the schools, I think that the fostering of the Irish language, as well as serving the purpose for which it is done, also tends to sharpen the intellect even of the child who does not understand Irish when coming to school. I find that the standard of education has not suffered because we teach Irish in schools.
During the war years pupils from the City of Derry came to my school and I found that their standard of education, although all the work was done in English in the schools in the Six Counties, was not higher and, in some cases, was lower than our own. Our primary schools are turning out students who can compare favourably with and compete with those of any other country. But at the present time more time and thought are directed towards vocational, secondary and university education. That is a good thing, but only a small number of our population can avail themselves of these types of education. Therefore, no matter what strides we make in improving vocational, secondary and university education, we should not neglect the fundamental which is primary education.
I understand that the Council of Education are going into the matter of the function of primary education. I think that the present national school programme could be changed with advantage. It has been suggested that instruction in agriculture should be part of the curriculum in rural schools. I think that that would be wise, that the theory of agriculture should be made available to the pupils, especially boys, at a fairly early age, so that they would at that age have an interest in the land and have a love for agriculture. It is the most important industry of the State and therefore our young people should learn about it and love it.
The public generally have received the Minister's pronouncement regarding new schools very favourably. Many new schools are needed. The medical officer of health annually visits each school in his area and issues a report. A study of these reports will bring to light the facts that in each county a large number of schools are condemned and that others are not suitable because they may not have a proper water supply or proper lighting. It will be seen from these reports also that a number of schools, in areas where new schools are not needed, require pretty extensive repairs. Therefore, the Minister's policy to speed up the building of schools is appreciated.
The Minister will find that the building of schools can be a very slow process. In the first instance the managers are charged with the responsibility of finding a site, and the finding of a site is not one of the easiest things in the world. Very many complications set in at that very early stage, even where a manager is willing and anxious to find a site. Then that site has to be vested. The local schools inspector has to give a report—(1) the necessity for a school, (2) where that school should be situated and, when a site is found, if the site is suitable, and so forth. The matter passes from the Department of Education to the Board of Works, and more delays are experienced. Eventually a decision is arrived at and then a quibble begins as to the amount of grant to be given by the Government and the amount of the local contribution. There may not be a short way of cutting through all these turns and twists and taking the straight road but so long as all these formalities have to be gone through— and some of them are quite necessary I admit—the Minister will find that the process of doubling the school building output will be very slow.
It is generally believed throughout the country that, with the recent increases in salary, the teachers are quite satisfied with their present salaries and conditions. Such is not the case. There are certain sections of the teaching profession, especially junior assistant mistresses and unmarried male teachers, where the salaries are quite inadequate at present. Generally all salaries, when compared with those operating in the Six Counties and in England, are much below those recommended under the Black and Burnham scales. Teachers should be paid in accordance with the type of work they do. It is of vast importance that men and women who are charged with the responsibility of educating the youth of the country should be free from financial worry and should work in a good school building and have the facilities which are necessary for the carrying out of their work. In primary schools all the facilities that are required are not available. In some cases these schools are badly stocked with maps and all the other equipment that tends to make the teacher's work easy and to make the work of learning easy also. I want people to get rid of the impression that teachers are well paid and that they have got all their demands.
The Minister's speech omitted two matters that are of very great interest to the teaching community. The first relates to extra holidays about which the Minister made an announcement some time ago. I agree with other speakers that these holidays should be made available in the summer months. We are very near the summer months now and yet there was no reference in the Minister's speech as to the extra holiday. The second matter is the retiring gratuity which is payable to all teachers who retired after the 1st January 1950. Many of these older teachers are existing on very small pensions. In some cases the pensions are as low as, if not lower than, 35/-per week. Certainly an ex-teacher in his or her old age cannot live on such a small pension. It is said that it would cost £1,700,000 to pay a retiring gratuity to these people. I would point out however, that the pensioned teachers have paid into a pension fund which would now amount to well over £500,000. This fund was taken over by the Government and if the demand of these retired teachers for a retiring gratuity were met it would not mean anything like a sum of £1,700,000 to the State. I would remind the Minister also that in the early years of the revival of the Irish language, when no money was paid for the teaching of the language and when, in some cases, it was frowned upon, these retired teachers did the pioneer work in fostering the language.
One of the greatest handicaps besetting teachers is this question of bad attendance at school. Bad attendance applies more to rural schools, I think, than to town or city schools, but one finds it everywhere— an 80 or 75 per cent. average attendance. No teacher can do good work if only 75 per cent. or 80 per cent. of the children are in regular attendance. It means that work that is done one day has to be redone if those who are absent turn up the following day. There is of course, a School Attendance Act, but I say that that Act is not being enforced as it should. It is a rather cumbersome measure but, even so, if it were better enforced we would not be complaining of a 75 per cent. attendance. First of all, a Civic Guard has to warn by notice the parents of the children who are continually absent or absent over a period. If the defaulting child returns to school for a number of days thereafter, a new warning notice must be issued in respect of subsequent absences. Eventually, in the case of very bad offenders, court action is taken, and there is a fine, sometimes of 5/- and sometimes 10/-. The offending parent goes home and says: "It was well worth it," because in one day the child had earned something like 10/- picking potatoes, gathering fruit or some other work, for which children are purposely kept absent from school.
I think it was something new in a speech like that which the Minister made last night to mention children who are mentally deficient. It is necessary that something should be done to provide for the education of these children. One meets them in every school in the country. Sometimes there are as many as three and four in one school. Their state is a pitiable one. They are incapable of keeping up with the progress made by the other children. They are glossed over shoved from class to class and they learn nothing as they go along. They feel out of place and the teacher feels that, as there are only a few of them. it is not worth bothering about them. They present a problem which is difficult to remedy, but I think in each county or in each constitueney there should be some scheme under which facilities would be afforded, such as exist in England and the Six Counties. for the teaching of such children. Teachers who have special qualifications are sent out to different districts to look after such children. That procedure has been adopted since the recent war and, so far as I know, it is working pretty well. I wonder if something along the same lines could not be adopted here.
Much criticism has been voiced against the primary certificate. It is felt that a child at the age of 13 or 14 is not able to put on paper all the knowledge that he or she has acquired on a certain subject and that is what the primary certificate asks the child to do. Teachers are of opinion that at that age pupils are not capable of doing a written examination, that such an examination does not afford a fair test of the amount of knowledge a child possesses and that it might be better if an oral test were held with a record kept by the teacher. The teacher is best able to judge what a child is capable of doing, what its qualifications are, and if it were left to the teachers to issue these certificates, it is felt that the result might be more satisfactory. Another matter that has to be considered is that the present system leads to cramming.
Teachers naturally are anxious that a fair number of the pupils entered for the examination should pass, and for that reason cramming takes place before the examination. Set questions are given and a mass of information is gone through with a view to passing the examination. I think myself the purpose of primary education should be, not to amass a wealth of facts and figures, but that the child should be taught how to learn, that he should be given, as it were, the blue prints and the weapons whereby in after years he could amass knowledge. The child mind is such that if crammed with these bits and scraps of information, it will cease to judge for itself. Therefore, our aim should be to train the mind so that when a child leaves school it will be capable of progressing in the quest for further knowledge.
I wish to conclude by again drawing the Minister's attention to the position of the Irish language and to warn him that it is necessary to do a bit of stocktaking in order to see where improvements can be made because I feel that once the child shakes the dust of the national school from his heels——
Some of them are very dusty.
——it is a question of good-bye to the Irish language and good-bye to the love of that language that the teacher has endeavoured to instil into the child's mind.
I cannot say that I agree with the gloomy outlook of the last speaker in thinking that the reestablishment of the Irish language as the spoken language is doomed to failure. I agree with him that the approach to the revival of the Irish language is wrong. We are impatient to have Irish the spoken language all in a few years, but we should remember that penal enactments introduced against the use of the Irish language some 300 years ago did not finish the Irish language in this country nor fully establish the English language.
We must remember that the revival of the Irish language is only as old as this House as far as the official side of it goes, although many broadminded people always sought to keep the remnants of the language alive in the period before we got our freedom. There is only a 30-year-old effort, if you like, to re-establish the language in this country. I cannot agree that there is no hope of re-establishing it nor do I subscribe to that opinion.
It will take a long time to have it the spoken language of this country. We should not forget that the vast number of our people never had an opportunity in their day of learning Irish. Their occupations and way of life prevented them from devoting the necessary time and attention to learning it. I agree with those who say that the approach to the system is wrong. It must be because it should have produced better results than were produced after a period of approximately 30 years.
In connection with this question of the revival of the Irish language, I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that the present method of teaching Irish or trying to instil Irish into the minds of the pupils of the national schools up and down the country is doing a certain amount of damage to their knowledge and to the amount of actual knowledge they have when they leave school. I am afraid that what some speakers said in the House last night is true—that they have not the same education as those in the English-speaking districts; they do not emerge from school with the same amount of knowledge as they did when English was the spoken language. While I do not claim to be an expert on educational matters, I think the Minister and his Department should keep a very close watch on the matter.
If damage has been done—I have no proof of that beyond the statements made in this House from time to time —in that regard to the last generation or two of pupils who have left the national school, I think that is a very serious matter. It would be well worth the trouble of looking into to see that in the process of re-establishing the language during this transition period, pupils, who have not an opportunity of going to a secondary school, are not turned out under a very severe handicap compared with the generations which went before them. I hope I have made myself clear to the Minister.
There is a huge number of children whose parents have not the opportunity, the wealth or the freedom to send their children to secondary schools. These children have to do all their lives with whatever education they get in the national schools. I have heard one teacher describe the teaching of Irish as stomach pumping Irish into the youngsters and that their general education suffers. That is a very serious matter if it is true. It is a very serious matter if the pupils fail to grasp the knowledge that has been given to them by their teachers because it is given to them through the medium of Irish and that they leave school knowing things off by heart and not understanding them. They can tell you that two and two make four but they do not understand it in the same way as the pupil in an English-speaking district understands that ten apples and ten apples make 20 or that ten eggs and ten eggs make 20. That is a matter the Minister should look into to see if there are any grounds for these statements. If there are grounds a very serious injustice is being done under our eyes.
Further to the speaking of the Irish language, I regret to say that the Gaeltacht areas are shrinking and shrinking rapidly. Efforts have been made in this House by different Governments to try to preserve the language there. I think the great cause of the trouble in these areas is the flight from these areas or the failure of the various Governments to stem the depopulation of what we describe as the Gaeltacht areas.
In this House recently a Bill—the Undeveloped Areas Bill—went with lightning speed through the Dáil, principally because those who knew the Gaeltacht areas and those who did not were anxious to preserve the remnants of the pure Irish speakers who lived in these areas. The working out of that Act has come as a shock to most people because they find that the very things they hoped would emerge from the working out of that Act are not taking place at all.
Surely the Minister for Education is not responsible for that.
I quite agree. I am aware of that. The Minister for Education is responsible for and has a great interest in the maintenance of the Irish language in Gaeltacht areas and while the Undeveloped Areas Act does not come within his ambit or within the scope of his Department, nevertheless, I had high hopes that the operation or the implementation of that Act would go a long way towards keeping the people in the Gaeltacht.
I still hold—I will have more to say on this subject when the Vote for the Department of Lands comes up for discussion—to what I have said in this House before I was a Minister, while I was a Minister and since I was a Minister, that afforestation holds out the greatest hope of keeping at home our young people within the Gaeltacht areas.
The present Minister was Minister for Lands for some four or five years, and was in charge of forestry during that period, and he must be well aware of the facts I am putting before him. Anything else is merely windowdressing, and it will not help to keep the remnants of the Irish-speaking population in the Gaeltacht. I think one of the pleasantest experiences one can have is to see the effect that a native Irish-speaking teacher has in the Gaeltacht area in which she or he is located. There is perfect harmony between the teacher and the children, and the results are really excellent. It is sad to realise that these children, who are complete masters of the language, will almost certainly emigrate. That is one of the severest blows from which the language revival is suffering. Native speakers are associated in the minds of some people with poverty and backwardness. English-speaking neighbours look down on them. The sooner we kill that the better it will be. Anything that is done to abolish that idea will be a step in the right direction.
Some time ago I raised the question of the closing of schools because of falling averages in the Gaeltacht areas. Unfortunately, the average is falling alarmingly. Averages have fallen from something like 80, 20 and 25 years ago, down as low as 15, 18 and 20. In all probability they will fall still further. While from the financial point of view it may be an economy to close these schools the effect otherwise is absolutely disastrous. People associate their school with a natural village centre in the same way as they associate their church and their shops. All these things go to make up a natural centre round which their lives revolve. Close a school in such a centre and there is immediately a stampede out of it. It is an open invitation to parents with school-going children to leave that area altogether. That is something for which we cannot excuse ourselves in these areas. We can take steps to stop the flight, and we are all equally culpable if we do not take those steps.
I know there is an unwillingness on the part of one Government Department to develop that part of our country. The result is the Irish language is dying. Those areas could carry as big a population if they were properly developed as any other part of our country and could provide gainful employment for the breadwinners. In 20 or 30 years' time, if steps are not taken immediately to stop the rot, we will raise a great howl and strike our breasts in penitence for having allowed such a disaster to overtake the country. We must remedy the present trend.
That does not arise on this Vote.
The reason I raise it is because depopulation will follow as a natural consequence on the closing of schools in the Gaeltacht areas. Indeed, I take this opportunity of congratulating the Minister on reopening one school, Glensaul, a short distance from Tourmakeady. Whatever the Minister may do about closing schools in the less poverty-stricken areas he should not close any school in the Irish-speaking areas. Some means should be found of keeping the people there. The Minister will ask me how it is proposed to pay the teacher where there are only five or six pupils in a school. Even if the number fell so low, I would still keep the school open and pay the teacher. I would hold on to the very last in the hope that afforestation or some other employment would ensue for the people.
In relation to one particular school, there are 15 children left in the locality, and it is now proposed to send some of them to Tourmakeady and some to Trean. I appeal to the Minister to reopen the local school and not disperse the children. That can be done, because the Minister is not bound by statute, and it is a simple matter to alter regulations.
Some retired teachers are existing on a pension as low as £30 a year. Under legislation at present before the House old age pensioners will get approximately £55 18s. a year. I do not think it is fair that teachers who have given a lifetime of service to the State, to the children and, through the children, to the parents, should now find themselves in the position of having to subsist on £30 a year. These are the people who kept the torch of nationalism alive when it was neither popular nor profitable to do so. There must be very few of them left now and I think we should strain a point to come to their assistance.
I notice that a sum of £23,092 is provided for cosmic physics. Unfortunately my education did not go as far as a full, or even a partial, understanding of cosmic physics. I hope the Minister will tell us what value the taxpayers are getting as a result of this expenditure. There may be a perfectly good reason for it. Some of us are in the dark as to what cosmic physics are doing for the country.
The Deputy is in for a shock.
I have a very hazy idea of what they refer to; perhaps the Minister would enlighten us when he is replying.