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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 1 Jul 1952

Vol. 132 No. 14

In Committee on Finance. - Vóta 48—Foraiseacht.

Tairgim:—

Go ndeonfar suim nach mó ná £629,700 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31 ú lá de Mhárta, 1953, chun Tuarastal agus Costas i dtaobh Foraoiseachta (Uimh. 13 de 1946), lena n-áirítear Deontas-i-gCabhair chun Talamh a Thógaint.

Tá laghdú de £217,350 sa Meastachán thar mar a vótáladh anuraidh. Méadú sna leithreasaí-i-gcabhair is ciontach le £56,500 den mhéid sin. Fairis sin, bhí i gceist anuraidh caiteachas de £236,000 thar an gcoiteann agus níor ghá ach £17,000 den mhéid sin a chur isteach i Meastachán na bliana seo. Fágann san gur mó Meastachán na bliana seo le £58,160 sna gnáth-fhórálacha thar mar a vótáladh anuraidh.

An méid talaimh nua a ceannaítear agus an t-achar a cuirtear gach bliain na pointi is mó spéise don ghnáthdhuine. I rith na bliana seo caite, ceannaíodh thar 15,000 acraí de thalamh inphlandála agus cuireadh 15,000 eile. Bíodh is gurb iad seo na figiúiri is mó a frítheadh riamh, níl an scéal chomh sásúil chor ar bith agus a dhealraionn sé. Níl ach cúltaisce de 31,500 acraí againn go fóill, rud a fhágann nach cóir thar 10,500 acraí a chur in aghaidh na bliana. Tá socraithe agam, ámh, 12,500, an t-achar is mó is féidir a chur gan dochar d'obair riachtanach eile, a chur i mbliana.

Tá riaráistí mór sa ghnáth-obair— buinní a ghearradh agus bóithre a dhéanamh, agus rudaí eile—chun na foraoiseacha a choiméad i dtreo agus caithfear cur chuige sin nó déanfar buan-damáiste do na coillte. Ní bheidh aon laghdú ar an bhfostaíocht de bharr an curadóireachta a laghdú, de bhrí go mbeidh na h-oibritheoirí ag tabhairt faoin obair eile—obair atá níos tábhachtaí faoi láthair.

Some criticism has been directed against the apparent reduction in the amount of money provided for this service. The net decrease on the 1951-52 Estimate amounts to £217,350; of this, £56,500 is due to increased allowance for Appropriations-in-Aid, so that the decrease on the gross Estimate is only £160,840. The 1951-52 Estimate included a sum of £236,000 for abnormal expenditure of a major nature, of which it is necessary to repeat only £17,000 in the current Estimate. The major items of abnormal expenditure were stockpiling of tools and fencing materials to the extent of £153,000 and the purchase of heavy draining and subsoiling machinery for which £45,500 was provided. If these abnormal provisions in the two Estimates were excluded from the reckoning, the 1952-53 gross Estimate would show an increase of £58,160 over the 1951-52 figure.

In recent years, public interest in forestry development has been centred on the rate at which additional land is being acquired and planted, and there has been insistent and unremitting pressure on my Department to increase the annual planting rate at all costs and by every means in its power. Despite every effort, it proved impracticable up to 1950-51 to increase the planting rate even to the pre-war target of 10,000 acres. In that year, the total area planted was 9,372 acres. Through an extreme effort in 1951-52 an area of 15,000 acres was planted.

This will seem very satisfactory and heartening to those whose knowledge of forestry is so limited that they believe that all that is necessary to provide timber from home resources is to put down young plants and that you can come back in 50 or 60 years and cut down a mature crop of good quality timber. The real position is far different. The planting of the young trees is but the commencement of 50 years of intensive care and cultivation, and the final reaping of a satisfactory crop is dependent on that intensive management throughout the rotation. Neglect of, or delay in attention to, the successive silvicultural requirements concerned is certain to result in poor crops and uneconomic returns.

In the early years following the establishment of a new plantation, it must be kept free of long grass which would smother the young plants, and plants which fail to strike must be replaced; if that replacement is delayed too long, the growing height of the plantation ultimately makes replacement of the failures impossible and the eventual stand of timber will be uneven and less productive than it should be. At a later stage, attention has to be given to weeding and pruning of the plantation. Then, about 15 to 20 years after the plantation is laid down, thinning must commence and must be repeated at intervals of about five years until the crop reaches maturity. Serious damage and loss are likely to result if thinning is not carried out at the proper stage of growth. There should, therefore, be a thinning programme for each forest and this should be followed systematically. The areas requiring thinning have increased greatly in the past few years and need attention urgently.

Thinning is, undoubtedly, one of the most important operations in forestry and requires an enormous amount of time and labour in comparison with the initial planting. There are many important centres where new planting is now subsidiary to other operations and where, in the absence of an adequate labour force, planting can be pushed only to the detriment of other work.

Thinning is the most effective, if not, the sole, means by which growth and development of plantations can be controlled to suit requirements. Obviously, all the trees cannot reach a final crop and the practice of thinning favours the more desirable trees at the expense of the undesirable ones. To leave the trees fight it out for themselves would not be forestry but folly. Irrespective of what markets may exist for the thinnings, the work must be undertaken to ensure a good final crop. There is, of course, a good market for thinnings and this expanding and remunerative market will be able to take all the thinnings the forestry division have to offer.

I want to stress the importance of all this cultivation and management which must be undertaken in established plantations. I want to make it clear to the House that my Department would be failing in its duty and would not be serving the forestry needs of the country if it were to allow the urge for the creation of fresh plantations to become its sole criterion of progress. It would be disastrous to permit the proper care and development of the plantations already established to suffer because the available facilities, including trained technical staff and labour, were inadequate to handle essential maintenance operations and at the same time cope with an increased planting programme.

Acceleration of planting on the scale which has occurred over the past few years has imposed a very severe strain on the service at a time when thinning requirements were also mounting rapidly. I have been advised and have satisfied myself that there is much overdue thinning to be carried out and that there are arrears of replacements of plants which failed to be made up because of the concentration on fresh planting. Unless these matters are attended to without further delay, irretrievable damage may be caused. I think the House should know that this situation exists and I am sure Deputies will agree with my decision that we must not neglect the proper development of the existing plantations which have already progressed towards the stage when they will benefit the country for the sake of laying down ever-increasing acreage of new plantations.

I have gone into the whole question very fully with the forestry division of the Department and I have directed that this important operation of thinning, and the allied work of constructing roads for the extraction of the thinnings must be given due precedence at busy existing forest centres, even though it may reduce the extent to which we can undertake this year or next year the planting of land which happens to be available at these centres.

Inevitably, that means a certain contraction of our planting potential for the country as a whole. There are other factors, too, which are militating against a high planting target for 1952-53. The total plantable reserve now stands at about 31,500 acres. We are seeking to increase that reserve by every means in our power. Extra recruitment of inspectors which has now taken place has brought the staff engaged on the acquisition of land to a higher figure than ever before, and Deputies will see from the Estimate that there is a big increase in the amount which we hope to spend on the acquisition of land in the current year. However, as I have stated, the reserve from which we can now draw for a planting programme for 1952-53 stands at only 31,500 acres. At that, it is only slightly higher—by 500 acres—than 12 months ago. This reserve, therefore, is still insufficient, even apart from limitations which I shall mention in a moment or two, to support an annual planting programme greater than 10,000 acres.

The House is aware that, for the proper planning of nursery production and its co-ordination with planting requirements, there should be available a plantable reserve three times as big as the annual planting programme. In other words, we should now be able to sow seed to produce plants in the species and quantities required to suit land which we can now earmark for planting three years hence. We have not had such a reserve, and in its absence we have been forced to conduct our nursery work by estimates and guesses. That is not a proper way to conduct any business, and it tends, in the case of forestry, to limit the choice of species for planting in particular sites and to force upon the Department lower standards of fitness of plants when particular species prove to be in short supply. Trees are a long-term crop, and I am sure the House will be solidly in agreement with me in my conviction that it is not merely bad forestry, but bad national policy to be so impatient for high annual planting returns that we cannot tolerate even the few years' delay needed to establish a proper reserve.

I have mentioned that there are still other factors which are militating against a high planting target. These other difficulties spring from the uneven distribution amongst forests of even such plantable reserve of land as we have. There are, as I have already stated, sizeable blocks of plantable land at busy centres at which we cannot secure enough labour to handle big planting programmes in addition to giving proper attention to the management, thinning, etc., of existing plantations. Similarly, there are large blocks at a number of new forests at which there will be little work other than planting for some years, and at some of these fresh acquisitions of land are unlikely. If, to bolster up this year's planting programme, we were to draw heavily on some of these areas, we would in a year or two be forced to dispense with the labour staff which had been trained in the work. That is undesirable from the forestry point of view and from the social aspect. Such excessive inroads on available sources of work have already happened last year in some areas, and I am anxious that they should not be repeated.

There are, too, some forests at which there are large blocks of land available, but the land is of the type on which a great deal of experimental work is needed. We are trying out the effect of mechanical drainage and preparation in these areas, and we would be unwise to plant them up too rapidly and without waiting until we ascertain what success will follow last year's initial experimental planting. In the current year, this experimental work will go ahead, but we must move cautiously.

When due regard is had to all these factors, Deputies will not be surprised to learn that the maximum planting programme which my Department can properly undertake in 1952-53 has had to be limited to 12,500 acres. Even that programme is excessive by reference to the plantable reserve; indeed its achievement will depend on the inclusion of this year's planting of a number of areas which have not yet been taken over. Compared with the area planted in 1951-52, which provisional returns put at 15,000 acres, it might seem that I should have to defend the 12,500 acre programme as a reduction or a retrograde step. Rather have I to defend it as being still too large in the light of our resources. A programme of even 12,500 acres can only be justified on the basis that some aspects of our organisation, e.g. nursery production, had already been geared to a high pitch, and that we can hope that the increased efforts we are making to expedite the acquisition of land will enable us to keep up a 12,500 acre annual programme, and perhaps extend it without crippling the whole machine.

To enable the planting rate to be increased over the next few years, if land availabilities permit and presuming that necessary maintenance work is not interfered with, I have directed that nursery production should be geared to a 15,000 acre planting programme and this year's nursery work will be on that basis.

A planned programme of steady development over a period of years is a fundamental requirement if we are to secure the best results, that is to say, the largest and quickest return in timber output.

To complete the picture, I should give Deputies at least a brief indication of the rest of the work programme to be undertaken by the forestry service in 1952/53.

Apart from the planting of new areas on the scale proposed, it is hoped to replant areas destroyed by fire totalling 238 acres and to carry out necessary replacements of failures on 7,366 acres of young plantations. Both these operations have been suffering in recent years from the concentration on fresh planting. There are over 43,000 acres requiring grass-cleaning and over 14,000 acres for weeding and pruning.

Thinning, which I have emphasised because of its importance and urgency, has to be undertaken on areas totalling 9,596 acres, as compared with an average annual rate of about 3,000 acres in recent years. Whether we will overtake that heavy thinning programme in full is doubtful, but it is intended to make an all-out effort to get this essential work up to date. The work programmes also include preliminary work on the construction of 48,400 yards of new roads and the metalling of 45,000 yards of new roads. Finally, there will be the usual annual increase in general maintenance work on existing roads, drains, firelines, etc.

I need hardly say that, with all this work to be undertaken, a reduction in the planting programme to 12,500 acres does not mean an equivalent fall in employment on forestry work. To illustrate this, the present aggregate authorised labour force for the forests totals 3,912 men, as compared with an average total of 3,382 men employed in 1951-52. If Deputies will examine the various labour heads in the Estimate they will see that there are increases totalling £80,000 under the heads of nurseries, maintenance and timber conversion in forests.

Under the heads of capital and constructional expenditure, the labour provisions are reduced by an aggregate of £71,000, but that figure is one that needs to be qualified in so far as the provisions under these heads in 1951-52 were estimated in relation to a planting programme of 20,000 acres which proved impossible to attain. To sum up, the aggregate allowance for forest labour is £9,000 greater than in last year's Estimate.

Since, in this general survey of the programme being undertaken during the year, I have covered all the more important aspects of the various provisions in the Estimate, I do not propose to do more than comment briefly on one or two of the individual sub-heads.

In sub-head C (1), Acquisition of Land, £100,000 is being provided as compared with a provision of £65,000 in the main Estimate for 1951-52. In the Supplementary Estimate for that year an additional sum had to be made available because of abnormally heavy expenditure on the purchase of the Shelton Abbey and Kinnitty Castle estates. In 1951-52 a total of 19,065 acres was acquired at a cost of £121,660. The area acquired included over 15,000 acres of plantable land as compared with a plantable content of 10,866 acres in acquisitions during the previous year. Seven new forest centres were established, bringing the total to 150.

The balance in the Grant-in-Aid Fund at the 31st March, 1952, was over £23,000 so that the amount now to be provided will bring the total available for expenditure in 1952-53 to over £120,000. As there are no exceptional purchases, such as Shelton Abbey, likely to be made this year, this sum should be adequate to enable acquisition to be pushed forward even more rapidly than in 1951-52.

In sub-head H—Appropriations-in-Aid—the provision last year was £116,240, but the actual receipts were in the neighourhood of £175,000 due mainly to the rapid development of the market for light thinnings for wallboard paper pulp, etc., and to the high market value of pitprop timber. Supplies of both types of material from State forests are increasing, but supplies of mature timber, obtained from the clearing of woodlands acquired with land and from which the greater part of the Department's revenue has hitherto been derived are less plentiful. It is estimated that our receipts this year should be similar to last year's. Allowance is made for receipts totalling £172,750.

Forestry Act.—The number of felling notices received in 1951-52 showed a slight decrease as compared with the previous year.

Under the Forestry Act, 1946, all replanting conditions attached to licences issued under the 1928 Act were due for fulfilment by the 31st March, 1952. Inquiries have shown that in many cases the replanting has been carried out, but there are also numerous cases where the licensees' obligations have not been fulfilled. These cases will be followed up during the year, and as adequate warning has already been given individually to those concerned I am afraid that it will be necessary to institute proceedings in many of these cases.

Although the restrictions on tree felling embodied in the Forestry Act are by now well known the number of cases of illegal felling reported to my Department during the year 1951-52 totalled 166 and was the highest for some years past. Proceedings were instituted in 143 cases and in 123 of them convictions were obtained. In 92 of these cases the persons concerned were fined. Those convicted included 21 timber merchants and eight others who were found guilty of offences under the Act arising from the purchase of trees which the owner was not entitled to cut down. Timber merchants and other purchasers of timber sometimes do not realise that they may render themselves liable to prosecution by not ensuring that those from whom they purchase standing timber are entitled to cut it down. If the vendor of the timber cannot himself produce evidence that it can be felled without contravening the provisions of the Forestry Act any doubt can be cleared quite readily by an enquiry at the nearest Garda station.

It would have been possible more easily to enjoy the little lecture, which the Minister set out to read us at the beginning of his statement, if he had followed the courteous example of his colleague, the Minister for Education, who, when he came into this House to introduce his Estimate, took the ordinary courteous step of sending a copy of the speech be was going to deliver to his opposite number on this side.

Has that been the practice in the past?

The Minister for Education did it the other day. I did not sit in this House on this side until 1951 so I cannot tell you if it was the practice in previous years. I do know it was a courteous gesture on behalf of the Minister for Education and one that was appreciated. It would have been possible to follow the Minister's lecture on thinnings more easily if he had followed the example of his colleague. Perhaps it was because the Minister realised that there was more brazen effrontery in his statement than I believed it possible for any Minister's statement to contain that we did not get the statement sent across. The Minister told us, without a smile on his face or even as far as I could see even the hint of a smile in his eyes, that the reason for the reduction in the Estimate was that it was not necessary to have the stockpiling this year that took place last year. Yet, every member on the benches opposite, since he went on those benches on the 13th June of last year, has been denying categorically and emphatically, in every mood and tense on every possible occasion, that there was any stockpiling last year. Lo and behold, the Minister for Lands comes along and introduces this Estimate and his excuse for the reduction in the Vote for Forestry is that the stockpiling that took place last year is not necessary this year. I sincerely hope that when next the Minister for Lands meets the Minister for Finance, in particular, at the Cabinet table he will impress upon the Minister for Finance that, so far as the Forestry Department was concerned, there was stockpiling to the extent of no less than £195,000, so far as I could catch the Minister's figures.

The amount provided for materials last year in the capital expenditure section of the Vote was £205,500, and the amount that is proposed this year is £10,000. That is a difference of £195,000. The only reason which the Minister gave us for that—and throwing out his chest he gave it as a sound and a true reason—was that it was not necessary now to provide a sum of nearly £200,000 for materials because there was adequate stockpiling last year. That is an interesting sidelight on part of the theme of stockpiling. It would be interesting, in the same way, to sit down, analyse and break down other figures, and if we did we might, perhaps, find that the truth is what I believe the Minister has now told us—that the stockpiling that was done in other respects was there also.

The purpose of the Minister's opening remarks, so far as I could understand, was to impress the House and, through the House the people outside, of the importance of maintaining a forest after it has been planted. That, of course, was a very sound line for the Minister to take, but I think it wants to be brought home to the people by a very much more practical method than merely discussing in a vague and abstract way the question as to what thinning must be done.

The reason there is a prejudice against forestry—I agree that the Minister intended his opening statement to dispel that prejudice to some extent—in certain areas is that there is not a sufficient appreciation of the labour content in the work of a forest from the day it is planted up to the time the timber matures. I want to say quite honestly that I did not expect this Estimate to be coming on so early to-night, but I remember last autumn putting down a question dealing with the labour content in forests.

The question was answered very fully by the Minister. That question dealt with the labour content during all the years until the timber has reached maturity. My opinion is that if the public understood, and had a full appreciation of, the amount of labour and of man-hours there are in bringing a forest to maturity there would not be a great deal of the silly and stupid talk there is that forestry is worse than ranching. There is a certain amount of that feeling, but I suggest it would be killed straightaway if sufficient publicity were given to the number of man-hours there are in bringing a forest right up from the date of the planting to the date that the timber reaches maturity.

So far as I could understand the Minister's approach to his Estimate, it was this: "We have to do a great deal of thinning, and because we have to do that we have to do a good deal of road-making and road-maintenance, and we are not going to do as much planting as we would otherwise do." I think that is a very short-sighted policy. I agree that if there is thinning and maintenance to be done, it should be done; but I do not accept the proposition at all that because an amount of thinning, maintenance and road-making, etc., has to be done in a forest, that it should prejudicially affect the number of acres that are going to be planted. If we do not make every effort continuously to step up the number of acres that we are going to plant, then the result is not going to be a successful forestry policy. So far as I could understand the Minister's outlook it is that the figure of 15,000 acres, which was achieved last year, was too high, that it should be cut down and was going to be cut down this year to 12,000, and that next year it was going to be cut down even further.

I understood the Minister to say that 15,000 acres was too much to try to do this year because he had to do thinning and maintenance work.

I said "the aim had a continuous programme of at least 12,500 acres."

I am glad to hear that. Of course, if I had a copy of the Minister's speech, as the Minister for Education has, I would not have misinterpreted what he said. One of the reasons why the Minister is not getting the amount of land that he wants is that the Forestry Department will not take the small pockets of land that become reasonably available. You cannot possibly expect to get huge swipes of land for forestry purposes in anything like a sufficient amount. If the Minister would make up his mind that getting perhaps five reasonably adjacent pockets of 20 acres each is just as good as getting one of 100 acres in one contiguous mass, then he would begin to find that it was possible to get sufficient land to make up his pool.

The whole difficulty in regard to getting sufficient land for forestry purposes has always been due to this that the Department would never—this is not a matter that arose merely under one Government: it is one that has arisen all through the years with the Department and with the Ministers in charge—face up to the fact that you are not going to get very large tracts of land available at the price at which it is economic to buy land for planting purposes. You are, on the other hand, going to find throughout the country smaller areas of land which are not suitable for ordinary agricultural purposes but which would be entirely satisfactory for planting. These might, perhaps, be more difficult to manage— I will make the Minister a present of that—but it is essential to manage them if the Minister is ever going to be able to achieve anything in regard to a proper forestry policy with proper forests for the country.

One of the reasons why there is a decrease of only this proportion in the Estimate is because there is an increase in the Appropriations-in-Aid. I take it that the increase of 50 per cent. in the sales of timber arose from the increase in the sales of thinnings as a result of the additional thinning that is taking place. I should like the Minister to tell me, when concluding, if that is merely a fortuitous figure for this year, or is it a trend that is likely to continue in the Appropriations-in-Aid from sales in that startling proportion?

I should like to go back for a moment to the question of capital expenditure for this year. We find that £10,000 is to be spent on materials this year as compared with £205,500 which was the provision for last year. How long are the materials bought last year going to last?

The netting will last three years.

Is that three years from last year or from this year?

From this year.

The Minister and his Party have frequently been stumping the country up to 12 months ago and even since, telling us that we were on the immediate brink of a European conflagration. The Minister will remember that when the last war broke out the reason given why planting had to drop so much was that there was no wire available. If the fact is that the Minister sincerely believes these statements that he was making on the subject of the imminent danger of war, surely while there is still time he should have bought this year more wire, so as to be able to keep three years' stock ahead of him?

We have bought more.

You cannot buy more with £10,000 than you could with £205,000.

We bought last year.

How much did you buy last year?

One year's supply.

I thought it was three years' supply.

In all. One year's was bought last year.

What stock did you find there?

I gave the figures.

How could we know? The Minister read out figures, of course. He read an epistle.

Now we are told that only one year's stock was bought last year. If one year's stock was £205,000——

One year's stock was bought since I assumed my present position.

The figure of £205,000 includes a three years' supply?

I could not answer that at the moment.

The fact remains that the Minister is looking for £195,000 less this year than last year. £195,000, as I understood the Minister originally, was because three years' supply had been bought last year. If that is so, then that averages out at about £65,000 a year, if these figures are right. Again, if that assumption is correct, we are spending only £10,000 this year so that instead of keeping up our stocks this year we are eating into them by providing a figure of only £10,000. That seems to be very bad policy.

In sub-head C. 2. (3) there is £50,000 for material.

In C. 2. (2) which is capital expenditure——

And C. 2. (3).

It is capital expenditure as against constructional expenditure. In the constructional expenditure there is an increase of £11,000 in materials. In the capital expenditure there is a decrease of £195,000. Now, the Minister gave us a figure for expenditure of £56,000 but he did not explain it so far as I could catch his figures. The reason I harp on that is that I remember the Minister coming in and jeering here not so very long ago at Deputy Blowick for having bought wire. Now he comes in and takes a different line. If we are to get anywhere with our forestry policy, we should make up our mind as to what is the right policy and any Government that is in power should keep to a reasonable average on that policy, so as to maintain some consistency.

Now he says he has got so much materials he does not need to buy more. Then he says that Deputy Blowick, when he was Minister, bought materials when he should have put out trees. Now the Minister says that he cannot put out the trees because he has not the reserves of land, and then, in the next minute, he says that the reason he is not putting out trees and planting more trees is that he wants to spend his time thinning—not his own time, of course, but the time of his staff. I fail to understand what reason there is for utilising the argument about thinning and road-making as an argument against planting.

There can be only one argument that could, under any circumstances, justify the reduction in planting area, and that is that the Minister could not see over a period of time sufficient land available. The only reason he could not see sufficient land available is that he insists on interesting himself only in large tracts of land, and he will not bend his mind to the difficulty, which undoubtedly exists, in acquiring a sufficient number of small pockets of land that would be quite satisfactory for planting anywhere. If the Minister adopted that policy, he would find he would get all the land he wanted without much difficulty.

This Estimate shows a substantial decrease, because the Minister is drawing on past reserves, if you like to use the word, by getting higher sales from greater thinnings; because the Minister has made up his mind that he is not going to keep the stocks that were left behind; and because the Minister has made up his mind that he is not going to keep to the tempo that was set by his predecessor. And if the Minister is proud of that record, I leave him to welcome his pride to himself.

I would like to avail of this opportunity to seek some indication as to the Government's future policy in regard to afforestation generally. I would appeal to the Minister and to the Government and to the Deputies on both sides of the House to approach the question of afforestation away from the usual tangle of Party politics, to try to take an objective view and to survey the value of afforestation to our national economy.

We talk a good deal of the necessity for reducing imports, for developing exports, to provide for our own selfsufficiency and to provide employment for our people. In the economic development of the country we have to face a great many difficulties. These difficulties arise largely from the fact that we have not got very many raw materials and the only type of raw materials we have in any quantity are the raw materials the land can produce by cultivation. We lack any big mineral deposits—at least, we have not yet discovered any large-scale mineral deposits—which form the basis of most raw materials in modern economy.

In the year 1906, a British Royal Commission was established to investigate, among other things, the forestry potential of this country. That Royal Commission found a number of things —one of which was that our climate was as suitable, if not more suitable, than the climate of any other European country for the production of timber. Timber requires a mild, soft, damp climate. We have probably the dampest and mildest climate in Europe. We can grow timber here at a faster rate than Scandinavian countries can produce timber. It was also found, as far back as 1906, that we had over 1,000,000 acres of unproductive land which was suitable for forestry. Some years after 1906 a start was made with afforestation. It was a small and puny effort, but a start was made by the British Government in those days. Probably the British Government had no particular interest in developing forestry here or in providing us with an industry and, more important still, with the raw material for industry or, indeed, with providing us with a means for employing our people. It was useful, probably, from the point of view of British policy to maintain this country in an undeveloped condition so as to ensure that a pool of manpower would be available for industry in Britain and for the British Army. It was useful, probably, from the point of view of British policy to ensure that there would be no large-scale investment in this country and that any investment of the savings or earnings of the Irish people would take place in Britain and not in this country. It is comprehensible enough that the British Government should pursue that policy.

Have we really made any serious attempt, since this State was set up in 1921, to provide ourselves with the raw material with which we can provide ourselves? I know a good deal of work has been done since 1921 by the Forestry Department. Thirty years have elapsed since this State was set up. If we had availed of our opportunity in the course of the past 30 years we should now be producing one of the most valuable raw materials in the world to-day. We should have forests which would provide a source of income to the nation and which would avoid the necessity for the importation of much of the timber which we import to-day. Instead of that, the Government have tinkered and played around with the problem.

The inter-Party Government agreed on a plantation target of 25,000 acres a year, that is, a plantation of 100,000 acres in a period of four years. I felt at the time that possibly that was a low target and I should have preferred a higher target. The last Government never reached that target. I understand that 15,000 acres were planted last year. Why have we not availed of the opportunities that God, by his Providence, put at our disposal to employ our people, to build industries here and, generally, to enable us to achieve self-sufficiency at least in the one raw material that we can produce more economically than any other country in Europe? It is very hard to find a reason for the resistance which exists in regard to forestry. It is not a resistance that exists in the public mind though I am aware that departmental officials often talk of resistance to forestry. I think that resistance is usually a resistance that arises from the fact that people with land want to get the best price for the land. The principal resistance seems to emanate from the Department of Finance, which has a strong objection to any capital investment in the country—and forestry has always been the cinderella and the Department easiest to hit. The Forestry Division of the Department of Lands is also in the position that it is not a Department on its own but is a subdivision of a much larger Department. The Forestry Division is merely a small adjunct to the Department of Lands. Every application for additional assistance goes through the mill of the Department of Lands.

I am inclined to think that the higher officials of the Department of Lands regard forestry as a bit of a nuisance, and brush it aside as not being part of their field of activity. Whatever the reasons, it is quite clear that the development of forestry in this country has, in the course of the past 30 years, been strangled not, I think, deliberately, by successive Governments but strangled by the machine of government, by the resistance which has been offered to the development of forestry in this country since we obtained control of our own affairs. I hope the Minister will not take this as an attack upon his Party or his own administration, but will join with me in seeking to overcome that resistance and in trying to enable us to provide ourselves with this raw material.

We have the best climate in Europe for the growing of timber. We have at least 1,000,000 acres of land suitable for that purpose. We have a chronic unemployment and a chronic emigration problem. Therefore, we have the labour for it. Despite the controversy that has been going on for some time past about sterling assets, we have vast sums of money invested in Britain—most of which is lent to the British Government at low rates of interest. Despite these advantages, we have a smaller area of woodland than any other country in Europe, and there is no satisfactory explanation as to why we allow that state of affairs to continue.

I am sorry I was not here when the Minister introduced his Estimate. I do not know whether he dealt with the Cameron Report on Forestry, which was published some months ago. That report was made as a result of a survey carried out by Mr. Cameron, of the Food and Agricultural Organisation of the United Nations—a survey which was carried out at the request of the Government—and in it he made a number of suggestions concerning the development of forestry in this country.

He approved of a plantation policy of 25,000 acres a year with a total plantation of approximately 1,000,000 acres. That report made a number of valuable suggestions which, I think, deserve very close examination by the House. He pointed out that if forestry was to succeed it would be essential to establish a separate Ministry to deal with forestry. I discussed this question with Mr. Cameron at some length because I had taken the view that it might be better if forestry, instead of being tied up to a Department as it is at the moment, were cut adrift of departmental control in the same way as the Turf Board is independent of the Department of Industry and Commerce. It could then be given an annual subvention and allowed to carry on its programme. Mr. Cameron's view, which he backed up by his experience in other countries, was that it would be better to have a special Ministry of Forestry that would have a Minister at the Cabinet table who could ensure that the necessary amount of moneys would be made available to the Forestry Department. I feel that the Minister should examine this question of having a separate Ministry set up.

I know that there is always opposition or resistance in a Department to taking away any particular branch of that Department from the main portion of the Department. The hierarchy of officialdom never likes to be disturbed from its existing hierarchical position. I feel however, that if forestry is to succeed the time has come when we must have a separate Department of Forestry with its own Minister to concentrate exclusively on the development of forestry.

I am not suggesting this by way of criticism of the present Minister. I feel it is a matter upon which there would be agreement from both sides of the House. It is seldom, I think, that suggestions are made from the Opposition side of a Parliament that an additional Ministry should be created. I would ask the Minister to consider that suggestion carefully and to take advantage of the suggestion which is being made from this side of the House. I am sure that the creation of a special Department of Forestry would receive support from all sides of the House.

I have always felt that the public in the country generally would never resent any expenditure on forestry. We can only hope to create forestry and to produce this valuable raw material by being prepared to invest sufficiently in the country. The public understand that, and they will appreciate any steps that may be taken to increase our forestry.

I think it is essential to eradicate from the public mind the impression that forestry is a very long-term programme. At the end of some 12 to 15 years it is now possible to use thinnings and two-inch tubs for pulping purposes. With any kind of vigorous plantation policy, at the end of ten years the time will be reached when it would be necessary to plan for the building of pulping mills throughout the country. As soon as we have enough thinnings to feed pulping mills in sufficient quantities, we can concentrate on the creation of a vast chain of secondary industries dependent upon pulp and timber.

I feel another aspect to which more consideration should be given than heretofore is that of technical training and technical research in regard to forestry. I know that we have a Faculty of Forestry in the National University. I am afraid we do not always avail of the students that are qualified in the university. I heard of a number of cases in recent years of students who had qualified in forestry here who had to emigrate in order to find employment elsewhere. Having regard to the small number of students that undertake the forestry course, it seems to me that we should certainly try to absorb these on forestry service here.

Likewise, I think the time has come when we should have a special research department or institute dealing with the utilisation of thinnings and timber which we produce. This is all rather a scientific problem nowadays. We should have more young men here who would be trained, and who would have the opportunity of acquiring modern experience and training, so that we would get the maximum result possible from our forestry operations.

I know that the school at Avoca has done useful work, but I fear that it is not adequate to meet our present-day requirements. I think that we need a research institute that would concentrate on the utilisation of the timber which we hope to produce. As this will take a lot of time to build and develop, I think now is the time to think about it.

Another suggestion I would like to make to the Minister is that we should avail more of voluntary effort than we do in regard to afforestation generally. I know that as far as the production of industrial timber in large quantities is concerned, we will have to depend on the State forests, but apart from the production of industrial timber on a large scale, we should also aim at increasing the local plantations even if these are on a small scale. We should also try to instil a greater interest in trees among the public, and in particular among the children.

I asked the Minister and also the Minister for Education on a number of occasions in this House whether they would consider arranging to have special courses, possibly on one day a year, given in all the national schools throughout the country on trees and the care of trees. I had hoped it might be possible even to organise arbor weeks or arbor days in all the schools throughout the country. If it were possible to do this, and if the Department of Education and the school managers throughout the country were prepared to co-operate, it should be possible for each child in a school to plant one tree in a year in some plot of ground adjacent to the school. In that way the child would be given an interest in trees, and taught to care and look after trees. I would ask the Minister to consider that suggestion again, and to discuss it with the Minister for Education.

I know there are difficulties in the way, but there are difficulties in the way of every undertaking. I am aware that obstacles present themselves with regard to the development of afforestation and of a civic spirit with regard to afforestation. However, I feel that these are small compared to many of the difficulties that exist in other spheres.

I would like the Minister to consider the possibility of giving more active State help to voluntary organisations who undertake the promotion of a civic interest in trees. There are a number of such organisations, for instance, the Trees of Ireland Committee and the Roadside Trees Association, both of which do valuable work in developing an interest in afforestation and in trees generally throughout the country. Arbor Week has been revived during the last three years and, as a result of the activities of the Trees of Ireland Committee, annual plantations of trees have been organised in public throughout the country. This practice has been taken up by a great many public bodies and by a great many other organisations. As a result of their efforts quite a large number of trees have been planted. A small annual grant to these bodies would enable them to do considerably more work. I feel that this grant would repay the country well; the planting of trees by private individuals and by public bodies throughout the country would help to create a stock of timber in the event of another emergency. In addition, of course, trees provide a valuable amenity for the public generally.

I have no doubt in the world that stockpiling is not the main reason for the cut in this Estimate this year. The cut is due to the axe of the Department of Finance which automatically falls on the Forestry Division. This year the Forestry Division has got it in the neck just as it did in many other years. The decrease in the Forestry Vote comes to £266,495, or a reduction of very nearly 25 per cent. Without any examination of the details and without going into the different subheads, it is quite obvious that the Forestry Estimate should show an annual increase, and that it should show a substantial increase this year. If an additional 10,000 acres or 20,000 acres of trees are planted they need looking after.

Rabbits have to be kept out of the plantations, and they must be kept clear of weeds, and so on. Therefore, due to the increased acreage under plantation every year, the Forestry Vote should show an annual increase. However, this year the increase should have been more substantial than usual; the wages of most of the forestry workers were anchored to the wages of county council workers; in most cases the wages of county council workers have increased and, therefore, the wages bill for the Forestry Division should have shown a substantial increase this year.

Most of the decrease occurs under sub-head C (2)—Forest Development and Maintenance. Substantial portions of the decrease are in regard to labour, but I do not see how labour can be stockpiled. Therefore, I am afraid I do not accept the Minister's explanation as being a full explanation of the decrease. For instance, it will be noted that, under the heading "Forest Development and Maintenance," there is provision for capital expenditure in regard to the preparation and drainage of lands and in regard to road construction. The amount provided for labour under that particular title last year was £181,000. This year the amount has been cut down to £135,000 —in other words, a decrease of £46,000 which applies to labour and is not due to stockpiling. It is down in black and white in the Book of Estimates. Turning to sub-head C.2 (3), Deputies will notice that a sum of £160,000 was provided for labour last year and that the sum for this year has been reduced to £135,000, which is a cut of £35,000. As I pointed out, all these particular subheads relating to labour should show a substantial increase this year to meet the increased wages that have been granted to forestry workers.

I understand the Minister's attitude in regard to the area to be planted to be: "We will plant 12,000 acres if we can acquire sufficient land." To me that sounds somewhat extraordinary. I fail to see how 12,000 acres can be planted this year if the land has not been acquired therefor. When the land has been acquired it will have to be prepared, drained and fenced.

It seems to be extremely unlikely that the Minister would be able to acquire land this year and plant it this year. Are we being told that merely to put us off? Is it not intended to plant really a much smaller area than 12,000 acres this year? The reason advanced by the Minister for reducing the plantation area this year is one which I cannot accept. He says the thinning operations have to be carried out on a larger scale this year than last year. Undoubtedly the greater the acreage of forest land we have the more employment it will provide, but surely the fact that a larger area of forest land has to be thinned this year should not compel us to reduce the acreage which we intend to plant. I hope that the area to be thinned will be increased year by year but at the same time that it will increase the plantation.

I am afraid the real reason for the reduction in the Estimate this year and for the reduction in the area to be planted is to be found in the conservative economic views of the Department of Finance, that have always done everything they could to strangle any capital development scheme in Ireland and that have always made the Forestry Department one of their first targets. I know the Minister will not admit that but I am sure he will, in his own heart, realise that that is so.

I would urge the Minister seriously to consider the suggestion I made at the beginning of my remarks, namely, of recommending to the Government that a separate Ministry of Forestry should be created with its own Vote, with a Minister and with a policy that would embody the definite target of a minimum of 25,000 acres per year. Until that is done I do not think we will succeed in remedying the scandalous neglect of forestry in this country.

I am sure the Minister is familiar with the world supply position of timber. All forecasts and estimates show shrinkage of supply; all forecasts and estimates show an increased demand for timber. In that situation there can be no safer investment, no wiser investment than the utilisation of the vast areas we have for forestry and the production of timber on a large scale.

I think the reason why afforestation has always been so behindhand in this country is that in our policy we still, to a certain extent, have the hand of the previous rulers of this country resting on us.

The British were noticeably behind practically all the other European countries in afforestation. It is only a matter of 50 or 60 years ago that they awoke to the fact of the importance of this on the trade and development of a country as a whole and they only started taking any interest in us here in that respect in or about 1906. I do not think we ourselves, even to-day, have awakened to the fact of how vitally necessary it is to us to have an expanding afforestation policy.

As an island people, it should be obvious to us that we cannot have or we cannot get the raw materials, not only in normal times on account of the expenditure on transhipping them here but in abnormal times we cannot get the raw materials necessary for the setting up of our industries. Therefore, apart from any other consideration, we should concentrate on afforestation and we should have a more definite expanding policy than we have had heretofore or appear to have for the coming year. There is no denying that there is a restriction in the Estimate. The figures are there. It is all very fine for the Minister to say that the reason the Estimate is reduced is because of the stockpiling that was done. I am glad also to hear somebody from those benches acknowledge the fact that we did stockpile. The materials that were stockpiled by the last Minister were very necessary things. They were vital to the growing of young timber.

They were wire, fencing materials, and so forth. If we have a considerable quantity of those materials in the country it is all the more reason why we should plant more land. If we have a stockpile here to carry us over the next three years we should be able to go right ahead with our policy of planting. The answer to that might easily be: "We cannot get the land." That is nonsense. They can get the land all right but the Forestry Department or the Department of Lands, whoever is responsible, do not want to take that land unless it suits their convenience. I know a case in my constituency and I know cases in other counties as well where land is being offered for forestry, and the reply is always the same: "That land is no use to us because it is too far from our vital centres and we will have to spend too much money on it." That is a shortsighted policy. If we had utilised all the land we could get for afforestation—and by land for afforestation I mean land that is suitable for nothing else, that is not usable for agricultural production—we could have kept at home vast numbers of our people who have emigrated to England and other places in the last 25 years. If we had been pushing ahead with that policy of afforesting Ireland we would have now not fully matured timber but timber coming into production which could be utilised for pulping and other purposes and would be giving employment. I think it was suggested by the Minister in the statement he read out at the beginning—of course, I am in the same difficulty as other Deputies, that when I hear a statement read out I find it hard to remember it all—that if we afforested too much we would employ men and we would not be able to continue using them in the years to come. Of course, that is nonsense. As one of the Deputies here has suggested, if you afforest for the first five years there is plenty of work to be done on the land keeping it clean. The Minister has referred to the removal of grass. Anybody who knows anything about forestry knows that as soon as you plant land you get a heavy undergrowth and you continually want people clearing it away and protecting the trees.

I agree that afforestation is largely a matter for the State. It is something that must be carried out by the State. At the same time I think it is desirable that the farmers and those who live on the land should be encouraged to grow as much timber as possible. I do not think the Forestry Department gives them any encouragement in regard to that. True enough there is a State grant of £10 per statute acre. That grant was in existence 25 years ago. What is the difference in planting an acre of land to-day as compared with 25 years ago?

Twenty-five years ago £10 would buy the trees, protect the land and pay for the labour. What will it do to-day? How far will £10 get one in planting an acre of land? It will provide the young trees from the nursery and nothing else. It certainly will not pay for the protection of the land. Added to that, one gets only half the grant when the land is planted and five years later one gets the other half. The only encouragement the farmer gets from the State is a £5 note for planting the land and protecting it to the satisfaction of the forestry officials. He must wait another five years for the other £5. That would not encourage anybody to plant timber. Until such time as the State is prepared to give a decent grant the only place in which timber planting will be done will be in the State forests.

With regard to the amount of land that is being planted, the target the last Government set itself was 25,000 acres. I do not believe that target was reached but it was a laudable effort. The target this Government has set itself is 12,500 acres. Why stop at that? The material is there. The Minister has acknowledged that. Why not plant more? Why not try to get hold of the high land? Visitors who motor around this country are always surprised to see our high land eroding. The reason for that erosion of our mountainous land is because it is not planted. There is only one thing that will stop land eroding and that is the planting of it with timber. Furthermore, planting timber on the high land will increase the fertility of the low land.

My experience of the Forestry Department is that it likes to get hold of good rich land. I do not accuse that Department of going out and buying up all the arable land. What they like is a bit of wood and a nice bit of arable land around that. I have heard the question asked here as to whether it is the policy of the Forestry Department to plant arable land. The answer is invariably "No". I invite the Minister and the head of the Forestry Department to visit me in my constituency and I will take them and show them the best part of 50 acres of arable land that has been planted with timber. Furthermore, they have another 50 acres and my information is that they intend to continue planting on that. What does the average person think of the policy of the Forestry Department when he sees that kind of thing? Every day people are asking me whether I cannot do something to stop this planting of arable land. There is plenty of land for afforestation purposes.

As Deputy MacBride has pointed out there are, according to report, 1,000,000 acres of land suitable for afforestation. Cannot the Forestry Department keep to that land and leave the arable land alone? I asked a question here as to whether it was the policy to plant arable land. The reply I got was that at times the Department got pockets of arable land and these pockets were thrown in generally with the other land and planted. If pockets of arable land become available why not utilise them by exchanging them for high mountainy land? In my constituency I can point to two good arable farms that have been used for afforestation and the remains of a third farm which is on the high road to afforestation as well. That is not a proper policy.

We have a lot of land here very suitable for afforestation. It may serve for sheep grazing at the moment. Surely the Land Commission, which is the parent body of the Forestry Department, could come to some sort of agreement whereby they would transport these people who are compelled to eke out a bare existence on high mountainy farms, waiving their regulation not to give a farm to anybody unless they live within a mile of it, and place them on the decent arable land and utilise the mountainy land for afforestation.

I would probably be told that that would not be economic. The workmen would have to be provided with transport to the forests. Sufficient labour would not be available. That answer is symtomatic and typical of the policy of afforestation. It is a very shortsighted policy. In order to derive benefit one must spend money and money spent in that direction will be money well spent. In 20 or 30 years' time the highlands will be no use to anybody because of erosion. That will be a national loss. Would it not be to our advantage to plant these lands even if the transport of the workers costs money? I think it would be worth our while doing it.

I do not claim to be an expert in afforestation but I think it is a good policy to mix evergreen and deciduous trees. Use larch, spruce and Scotch fir and whatever else you like plus a little bit of oak and beech and so forth. It seems to me that the Forestry Department concentrates on one type of tree. Some of the forests are all sown down to Douglas fir. There seems to be very little larch which is a very valuable wood for making farm carts, ladders and so on. Latterly, the Department seems to be concentrating on Norway spruce. I think it is a good idea to mix larch and spruce because in that way one gets more light. I think the trees do better. I have tried that myself and found it very successful.

The Minister referred to the difficulty of recruiting labour and training labour. Personally, I do not see what training there is to it. Anybody could plant a tree. All you have to do is to turn the tilth upside down, cut it in half and put in the tree and see that you put it in straight. The Minister suggested that if we went ahead with afforestation the question of training people to plant would arise and, then, if we trained these people to plant, we would have too many of them and would have them on our hands. I cannot follow that line of reasoning. I do not think they require training. The charge hands want a certain amount of training, but not a great deal. There were many persons available who had forestry degrees but, as Deputy MacBride has said, they are not here now because they had to go away to look for jobs; they have not been employed here.

The suggestion made by Deputy MacBride that there should be a separate Department for afforestation is reasonable. We are an island people. Afforestation is essential to us. If we are to go ahead with afforestation, those in charge must have the executive status of having a Minister at the head who is in control of the policy and who will see that it is properly carried out.

Finally, I also agree that it is the dead hand of the Department of Finance that affects this matter. The Department of Finance, naturally, comes into everything in this House. The Department of Finance is conservative to the last degree.

It has to be, of course.

Yes. They are conservative to the last degree. They never seem to remember that we are living in a changing world. Thirty or 40 years ago, afforestation meant growing timber to produce boards, and so forth. Now afforestation is developed on account of the raw materials that it supplies. In the last war Sweden managed to survive and to keep some sort of transport system in operation and to remain neutral by extracting from the forests sufficient spirit to keep agricultural machinery in operation and motor cars on the roads.

Perhaps we are rather unfortunate in Wexford but I cannot see that the forestry section have any policy at all with regard to felling. In my view, commercial timber should be allowed to grow to maturity so as to get the best benefit from it. I do not think they do that. It seems to me, from observation of the woods in the area that I come from, that felling has been haphazard. The Minister said that we are short of mature timber. I agree. There is very little mature timber in this country. I do not think that any timber should be cut down in this country until it is mature, unless there are very special circumstances, such as that the trees are not doing well, that some disease has entered the roots and that it is better to destroy them. Otherwise, timber should not be cut down, apart from thinning. The forestry section control the policy. They should be looked up to but, unless they conduct their own business properly and know when to fell mature timber and when not to fell immature timber they cannot expect other people to do the right thing.

I, like Deputy Sweetman, believe that if the Minister had made one or two copies of his speech available to each Party, Deputies who are anxious to take part in the debate would have been in a better position to offer constructive criticism. The Minister read his speech very quickly and there cannot be expected from Deputies that appreciation and help which would have been forthcoming from this side of the House if we had been treated in a more reasonable manner.

My interest in forestry goes back to 1943, when I first entered this House. Prior to that very little was heard about afforestation. In fact, the Party to which I belong did more to bring afforestation to the forefront than any other Party. My maiden speech, delivered on that occasion, dealt mainly with the necessity to develop afforestation. I noticed on that occasion the look of amazement on the countenances of most Deputies, particularly that of the then Minister, Deputy Moylan. I suggested then, as I suggest now, that there should be a special Department which could be solely concerned with the development of afforestation. Afforestation is important as a means of providing employment for manual labour and of retaining in this country the capital which we spend on imported timber.

There is, of course, a feeling abroad that Irish timber is inferior to Russian, South American or Scandinavian timber. That is not so. It is inferior only after it has been felled because it has not been properly processed. I do not think the Minister made any reference to the provision of kilns for the drying of timber. Irish timber has got a bad name because it was not properly dried. People felt that it was essential to use foreign timber for roofing and other important work. I would ask the Minister to indicate what progress has been made in regard to the kilns erected in Dundrum, County Tipperary, and Cong, and also what information has been forthcoming from the experts who were brought in from Canada and Finland a short time ago.

In the course of my contribution to the debate on the Estimate for Lands I did not say a great deal in praise of the Minister's predecessor in respect of land division and acquisition but I would be failing in my duty if I did not congratulate Deputy Blowick for his work in respect of afforestation. He did more to bring afforestation into the limelight than any Minister has done since the establishment of this State. It is regrettable that Deputy Blowick is not here to-night but that is due to no fault of his. We hope that this debate will continue and that he will be here to-morrow afternoon to make his contribution. I would be most interested to hear him. He has many facts and figures which the ordinary Deputy has not, due to the fact that he was three years and four months in that particular Department and to the fact that he gave it very careful consideration and took a very keen interest in the forestry section of the Department of Lands. The Minister is well aware of that, although I did not hear any reference to it or any word of praise for the hard work that Deputy Blowick did in that section of the Department. We are told in a survey that something like 1,200,000 acres are available for afforestation but that some of that land belongs to small farmers and is difficult to acquire.

Looking over the debate on this Estimate for 1950 I notice that Deputy Kennedy, who now occupies the exalted position of Parliamentary Secretary, but who I am sure was putting forward the policy in relation to afforestation and the outlook of the Government and of the Minister in regard to it, took part in the debate. The outlook of the Minister is indicated by the Estimate in which there is a reduction of almost £300,000 as compared with last year.

The Minister, of course, is trying to justify that reduction by talking about stockpiling. Deputy Moran was very voluble in condemning Deputy Blowick when he was Minister for the purchasing of rabbit wire. I do not know what knowledge or experience of afforestation the Minister has. I am sure he does know, as every schoolboy knows from his textbook, that it is essential that new plantings should be protected from pests, especially rabbits.

They are not the only pests.

The Minister is another one, judging from the Estimate. I am sure that the Minister realises the necessity for this material. I remember addressing a question to Deputy Moylan when he was Minister during the earlier stages of the war about the development of forestry. He told me that nothing could be done in that direction then, that he had sent all the officials in that particular section of his Department to the Department of Industry and Commerce or the Department of Supplies and that there was no wire available. Anyone could have foreseen in the years prior to the outbreak of the war the necessity for laying in that material, but they did not lay anything in for the rainy day; there was no stockpiling for the rainy day. The result was that when the rainy day came the little bit of forestry that was being done practically came to an end. The acreage planted then was hardly worth talking about.

Deputy Moran was very voluble in condemning Deputy Blowick for the purchase of this rabbit wire and also for the purchase of essential machinery such as mechanical ploughs and other implements for the development of afforestation. I know that the Minister appreciates that these implements are now available. In his own county, close to where he was born, a development in that direction has been progressing very favourably. The Minister tells us that he is going to await results. I do not think there is any need to await results.

Deputy Kennedy told us, and I dare say his opinion is shared by the Minister, that if afforestation is to be carried out it can only be carried out on the best arable land, and that it was all ballyhoo and tomfoolery to suggest that afforestation could be carried out on any land except the best type of arable land. Of course he went on to make the case that if you proposed to acquire arable land for that purpose you would create a row in the county or constituency or parish where the acquisition of such land was suggested. Naturally, you would create a row. I would be one of the participants in that row if anybody suggested the acquisition of land which is so essential for the relief of congestion.

I am advocating the utilisation of the 1,200,000 acres of land which is not suitable for the relief of congestion, most of which is not even suitable for grazing, but which would be suitable for the extension and development of afforestation. Such a development would provide employment and also provide an essential raw material which we have to import from abroad, not to mention the many industries which would spring up as a result of the provision of that essential raw material, namely, timber. Of course the Minister may not be concerned about the provision of employment or the provision of this raw material. If he thinks he can convince the House that this reduction of almost £300,000 is due to the stockpiling we shall not accept that. He even has gone so far as to tell us that the same acreage will be planted as was planted heretofore. He qualifies that by saying that the land has yet to be acquired and that it depends on the speed of the acquisition.

I said no such thing. I said the land has not yet come into the possession of the Land Commission.

You are only splitting hairs. If it is not in the possession of the Land Commission, it is not the Land Commission's property and therefore the Land Commission cannot use it.

It will be handed over to the Land Commission during the present year.

If I know anything about afforestation, when land is taken over by the Land Commission it requires a lot of preparation and treatment before it can be planted. If you acquire 1,000 acres of land one day you cannot commence to plant them on the next day.

You know more about it than the technical experts.

I want a guarantee that the essential land will be available and ready for the transplants which are now ready for transplanting. The Minister did not tell us what quantity of seedlings he put in this spring. He did not give us any idea of the number of transplants available and the acreage ready to receive them. Therefore we are rather doubtful about the brief which he read out to the House this evening. I did not hear any reference to what is happening in Cong or what is happening in the Westport or Louisburg districts, what progress has been made in these places. He gave no indication of the number employed or the wages of these employees. Therefore we are to a great extent in the dark owing to the lack of explanation in the Minister's speech.

I would be only too pleased if I thought the Minister was really serious but I know from past experience that the Minister is not serious, that he has very little interest in the development of forestry. I think I would be correct in saying that for the past 12 months the Minister has shown very little interest in that section of his Department. That accounts for the very limited explanation given in his report to the House this evening. It is due solely to the inactivity of the Minister and the lack of interest which he has taken in that particular section of his Department during the past 12 months. If we had at our disposal the information which the Minister has but did not make available to us in the course of his opening address, we would be rather thunderstruck because I do not believe that there will be anything like 12,500 acres planted this year. I shall be surprised if half that acreage is planted, and half that acreage would be more in keeping with the policy of the Minister when in his present capacity some years ago and the policy of his predecessors in his own Party, and more in keeping with the policy enunciated by Deputy Kennedy on the Estimate for Forestry in 1950. At column 1742 of Volume 120 of the Dáil Debates we find the following:

"Mr. Kennedy: I would like to know from Deputy McQuillan if he will come down to brass tacks. Where are these thousands and thousands of acres that he speaks of?

Mr. McQuillan: We put the brass tacks under you all right.

Mr. Kennedy: Let me get down to the amount of suitable land there is in the Twenty-Six Counties. Let a reasonable amount of land be taken in the Counties Meath, Westmeath or Longford, and let the Minister plant it because it is the only land that can grow trees for commercial purposes.

Mr. Blowick: Humbug."

A very justifiable comment.

"Mr. Kennedy: I defy contradiction of that. If he were to do that he would create a furore in the country. This idea of getting cutaway bog in the West to grow commercial ash, oak and beech, or any of the other class of trees that brought a big income to the owners who had such timber in the war years is all nonsense and moonshine."

The Minister now has an idea of what his colleagues think of the development of non-arable land in the West of Ireland and of the development of 1,200,000 acres which the survey gave us to understand were available for development. Deputy Kennedy went on to say:

"You can grow on cutaway bog only stunted, twisted and gnarled trees of narrow width that will never be any good except for firewood. Experience has shown that. Deputies from the West of Ireland have spoken to me about the fine trees that were cut down in the Midlands during the last war. They had great width, height and were perfectly straight."

It is quite natural that Deputies from the West of Ireland should talk about these trees because trees in the West of Ireland are as rare as monkeys. They are not to be found there, because the West is deforested and denuded of trees and only in few places will you come across even a small plantation. If we are to accept Deputy Kennedy as indicating the outlook of the Government and his Party, we cannot expect much progress under his colleague, the Minister for Lands. Assuming that to be the outlook, I can well understand the Minister's qualification when he explained to us that, although his ambition is to plant 12,500 acres, he cannot guarantee that he will plant that acreage, for the simple reason that he has not yet acquired the land on which to plant. Go bhfoiridh Dia orainn!

I should have very much liked to look up the Minister's speeches when he sat on this side but, like Deputy Sweetman, I had not time to do so because we did not expect this Estimate to come on so quickly. When Deputy Blowick took over his Department he found it unstaffed—nobody there at all. Happy-go-lucky; come day, go day, God send Sunday—that was how that Department functioned until he took over. He had to build up, in very difficult circumstances, and in face of strong opposition from the Deputies then on this side, a staff for the Land Commission, for the forestry section and for the Gaeltacht section.

He had to go over to Scotland where he secured very important knowledge and information which, on his return, he transmitted to his officials and we can see the effect of his visit to Scotland in his work over the three years and four months during which he was in office. It is regrettable that he is not sitting where the Minister sits to-night. I say that not because he is a colleague of mine but because he achieved more in those three years and four months than was achieved since the Dáil was established.

I notice that Deputies opposite smile. I notice that Deputy Cogan and his colleague beside him are smiling. I might be annoying the Deputy by referring to the Deputy beside him as his colleague—I do not know if he is in the Fianna Fáil Party, but at least he is a partner in the firm. I can understand him smiling, but he knows that what I say is the truth. Is it not disappointing to those of us who are interested in the development of afforestation that all the work he did is now to be impeded and that, instead of continuing to make progress, the whole position is to be reversed and we must now depend on guessing and hoping, with no facts, nothing on which we can rely and nothing we can accept as genuine— only hoping for the best and chancing the future? That is all we have got from the Minister.

I remember when Deputy Blowick came down to open up a scheme in the Minister's native area of Louisburgh the scheme was scoffed at and every possible effort made to prevent the Minister, first, from acquiring the essential acreage which ran into some thousands and, secondly, from getting the co-operation of the tenants and farmers concerned in the locality, by members of this House who tried to make a humbug of the whole scheme. Deputy Blowick has killed once and for all the belief expressed by Deputy Kennedy that trees sown in the West of Ireland on moorland or mountainy land would be a failure. I remember Deputy Moylan as Minister for Lands telling me years ago that the hard winds from the Atlantic would be a danger to the little plants. All kinds of excuses were advanced against the arguments put forward by those anxious to develop forestry in the West of Ireland.

Having come from there we knew the conditions and were desirous to see some development in order to hold our youth at home and give them work because 20 different industries could be established with timber as their raw material. With the development of science regarding the processing of timber there is hardly anything to-day which you cannot make from timber. Recognising that we felt that forestry would be one of the things which might provide a solution to emigration along the western seaboard, but we got no help. Have I not reason to feel proud to belong to a Party small and all as it is, ignored by the Press—during the election campaign they did not give us 1/16th of an inch——

That does not arise.

I know, but I just mentioned it. Have we not reason to feel proud that we played a part, small and all as we are, in convincing Deputies of the importance of this industry? I might say with no exaggeration that with proper attention forestry could in 50 or 60 years come next to our main and primary industry, agriculture, not alone from the point of view of employment but from the point of view of providing the essential material for industries manufacturing goods with which we could capture an export trade.

We find it difficult to speak to this Estimate for the simple reason that the Minister treated us in a shabby manner. That may be the custom. I do not say whether it is or not because it is three or four years since I was in this House before and I forget what exactly was the custom about supplying Minister's speeches to this side of the House. I would ask, however, that in the case of the Estimates that are to come, particularly Agriculture, we should get one or two copies. I do not say that every Deputy should get one, one or two would suffice. We could then glance at it and could be more constructive in our speeches. We do not believe in playing the tactics which the Party opposite played during the three years they were on this side. Our ambition and desire is to co-operate, help and advise, to try to show how far from the point they are straying——

The Deputy is straying from the Estimate.

——and try to bring them back where they belong. Even though I may be straying—and I grant that I am a little—I hope that that little straying will not do any harm as far as the Minister and his colleagues are concerned. I hope that next year if the Minister is still in that happy position—and it is very doubtful—he will be able to offer a more favourable report on this section of his Department and give us a little more information about seedlings, transplantings, acreages and so on. If we find that anything we have said has encouraged or helped him to throw overboard his present policy and that the 1,200,000 acres awaiting him have received some attention, he will have our help and co-operation. I hope that I have not been tiresome and that what I have said will be of some assistance.

Deputy Cafferky rather disarmed criticism by stating that in his constituency trees were as rare as monkeys. I do not know whether he meant to imply that trees are scarce or that monkeys are very prevalent. I represent a constituency in which afforestation has been carried out very extensively over a long period and I am glad to note that in the present year the work of the Forestry Department there has had a further expansion, that the number of men employed is greater and that the prospects of planting a greater area are brighter.

It is very desirable—and I think that every Deputy in the House will agree —that afforestation should advance as rapidly and as efficiently as possible. The fundamental consideration is that the land of Ireland is our most valuable and important asset. On the utilisation of the land of Ireland will depend the future of our nation and of our population. You may divide its utilisation into two general classifications, the production of food and the production of timber. There will always be a considerable amount of controversy as to where the boundary should be drawn. Many people find that the Forestry Department frequently overstep the mark and use for the production of timber land which is eminently suitable for the production of food. The Forestry Department's justification of that is that it is often very difficult to segregate pockets of good land interspersed in an extensive area of land which is more suitable for planting. I have always felt that the Forestry Department should aim at avoiding the plantation of really good agricultural land even though it might involve in some cases a certain amount of expense and trouble. It is true that there are 1,000,000 or 1,250,000 acres of land in the country suitable for planting.

At the same time we have got to recognise that every acre of this land belongs to somebody. It is in the possession of some individual farmer and the task of acquiring it is not altogether so simple as Deputy MacBride would have us believe. He simply says: "There is an area of 1,500,000 acres there; why not plant it?" Before planting it it has got to be acquired, and before acquiring it several important considerations have to be taken into account. The farmer, for example, who owns uphill land has got to have his rights and interests carefully considered. If his mountain grazing is taken from him he must get something in return. That is a problem that every day in every week of the year the Forestry Department are grappling with. It is nonsense for Deputy Cafferky to say there was no staff in the Forestry Department three years ago. As a matter of fact, as a Deputy for County Wicklow, I know that for years the Forestry Department has been patiently grappling with the problem of voluntarily acquiring land. I know the extreme difficulties they had to face and which they have overcome so successfully in the acquisition of that land. On every hill and mountain there may be as many as 15 or 20 farmers who have grazing rights, and until each of these farmers has consented to dispose of his rights on the mountain no action can be taken by the Forestry Department to plant that area. I think a tribute is due to the officers of the Department for the patience and perseverance with which they pursued the task of acquiring land, in all cases by agreement. A tribute is due to them for the measures which they adopt to satisfy the owners of the land without doing any injustice to the taxpayers.

The Forestry Department, of course, could readily acquire all the land available for acquisition if they were to pay an excessive price for it, but there again they have got to consider the value of the land from an economic point of view. They are very restricted in their powers in this respect. I sometimes think it would be useful if, in conjunction with the acquisition of arable land by the Land Commission for allocation to suitable allottees, an arrangement could be made by which, in cases where there is some good land on a holding acquired for forestry purposes, a higher price could be paid.

I mention these things to show that the problem is not so simple as some Deputies suggest. It is a problem bristling with difficulties. We have heard over the years of the slow progress made by the Department of Lands in the resettlement of the congested areas. There are many problems of a similar nature which arise in regard to the acquisition of grazing land on mountains. While on the one hand I would ask for a closer co-operation and a dovetailing of the work of the Land Commission into that of the Forestry Department, so that as much land as is suitable for agricultural purposes should be utilised for that purpose, on the other hand I should like to suggest that there should be some form of arbitration to decide whether land which it is proposed to acquire is agricultural land or land that is suitable only for plantation. It is natural, of course, that the Forestry Department, who might have considerable difficulty in acquiring a large holding on which there was some agricultural land, would be slow to part with that land. Their problem is to show results and naturally if they acquire a parcel of fairly good land it is only to be expected that they would like to utilise it in order to have something to show after a few years for their labour, because there is no doubt that in most cases timber planted on fairly good agricultural land will thrive somewhat better than timber planted on poorer land. At the same time we have got to preserve a balance as between the production of food and the production of timber.

There is sufficient land in the country suitable mainly for planting purposes to satisfy our needs without infringing upon any part of the area which is mainly agricultural. I know there will be people who may contest that and who may say that some of our hill lands and uplands provide very valuable agricultural land inasmuch as it is good grazing land and produces sheep which are so essential in our agricultural economy. I think it will be accepted that a line must be drawn but, on the economic side, it will be found that, properly managed, a great deal of our hill land will produce a bigger return to the nation if put under timber than it could be expected to produce if utilised for rough grazing for sheep. There is, of course, the other important aspect and that is that the utilisation of hill land for rough grazing only does not prevent soil erosion or the washing of the fertility out of the land due to lack of protective trees. Timber, therefore, must be considered not only from its commercial aspect but also from its beneficial effects on agriculture generally.

I think in County Wicklow there is a fairly good example, established by private enterprise some years ago, of agricultural land and plantations side by side. I refer to the Coollattin estate in the Shillelagh district, where you have all the suitable agricultural land utilised for agricultural purposes while the higher land is all under plantations. The effect, of course, from a scenic point of view is very beautiful. I think in every respect it was a sound and beneficial policy. I should like to see that policy continued everywhere so that where there are pockets of good land, even in the midst of plantations, they will be left aside for agricultural purposes. I should not like to see the entire side of a country completely denuded of its agricultural land and converted into a vast forest. I think that is an important consideration. It is one that has got to be faced and it should not be left entirely to the Forestry Department to decide the question. I think as between the demands of the Forestry Department for land for planting and the demands of agriculture for the provision of food, there should be some system of arbitration to decide the question.

Every acre of land that can be used most effectively and economically for food production should be utilised for that purpose. I would say that can be done without, in any way, curbing the expansion of the forestry programme. As a matter of fact, I think it might assist in the carrying out of that programme if the Department were authorised to pay a higher price for a holding on which there was a mixture of arable land and poor hilly land, in that way offering an additional inducement to land holders to part with their land.

One of the things that possibly militates, to a certain extent, against the extension of forestry is the feeling of people in many districts that it means the uprooting of the human population from areas covering, say, a group of townlands. You have in the County Wicklow many districts in which there is a scattered population which has managed to survive over the years. It is certainly becoming thinner every day but to see it completely wiped out, leaving the entire area deserted, is something which the people in those rural districts would regret. For that reason I have suggested that any land which could be converted into an agricultural holding should be reserved for that purpose. Another consideration is that there are, and must always be, quite a large number of workers employed on an afforestation programme. They should not all be housed in the larger towns or larger villages but should as in the case of the trees, be planted in the rural areas.

Wherever there is an extensive plantation being carried out in a district, I would like to see there a model village built perhaps by the Forestry Department or by the local authority for the purpose of housing the forestry workers. In the valley of Aughavannagh there is, for example, a centre in which I would like to see a model village established for forestry workers. I think it would be a step in the right direction. It would ensure that the human population would not all be crowded into the towns or villages but would be scattered here and there through the areas acquired for planting.

Broadly speaking, afforestation falls under two headings. I have been dealing with it, mainly, from the point of view of a State enterprise. There is also a very considerable amount of work which can be done by private enterprise, but at the moment there is not very much being done under that heading. As regards State enterprise, I would like to comment upon Deputy MacBride's suggestion that a Ministry of Forestry should be established. I have often thought over this question and it has struck me that it might be more desirable to tackle this problem in the same way as turf development and the generation of electricity have been tackled, and that is by the establishment not of a State Department but of a semi-State business organisation. It is quite possible that it might have some weaknesses, but on the other hand it would have certain advantages and perhaps greater freedom of action. I am not so optimistic as to think that the appointment of a Minister for Afforestation would mean any great advance on the present position. I think afforestation is, if you like, hard uphill work, a form of enterprise which resembles in many ways agriculture, and is perhaps exposed to even more hazards than agriculture. In the case of afforestation, land has to be acquired and developed. There are always risks which have to be taken, risks in regard to destruction by pests and by severe weather. It is, therefore, an enterprise in which the maximum amount of technical knowledge and business organisation would need to be exercised so as to ensure that the most economical methods were adopted and that the labour employed was utilised to the best advantage.

We know that in recent years steps have been taken to mechanise afforestation to a considerable extent. I think these steps are all in the right direction. It is true, of course, that on the side of a mountain you cannot use machinery perhaps as extensively as you would wish, but, nevertheless, it is true that machinery can be used very extensively. In addition, we have to consider not only the planting of high uplands but also of marshy lowlands. There, again, there will be a need for the utilisation of machinery for the drainage and proper development of the land. Over all that, there must be the consideration of the cost of the labour involved and of the ultimate profit expected to be derived. I think it would be a good thing if the Forestry Department would give the nation a clear cut simple estimate of the average cost of acquiring, developing, planting and maintaining an acre of commercial forest, and of the ultimate value of that acre of forestry when the timber reaches maturity. Those figures, of course, would be, to a great extent, only a rough estimate because at the moment we cannot forecast what will be the value of the timber that is being planted to-day when it reaches maturity. It may be of phenomenal value or, on the other hand, the development of industry may take such a turn that timber would not have such a high value as we anticipate. At the moment, however, all the indications are that timber will remain a very valuable raw material for industries of various kinds.

At the same time, it would be no harm to have an estimate of the cost of planting and of the value of the ultimate crop of timber. Although it would be only a rough estimate, it would be useful in reassuring those who may think that the Department of Finance are rather sceptical about the desirability of investing money in afforestation. If the matter were gone into as a business firm would go into it and the ultimate value of the timber were shown in cash—not to speak of its value otherwise—it would help to create a stronger public opinion in favour of afforestation and it would emphasise also to the Forestry Department the importance of utilising the most efficient methods in their work.

It is essential not only that the best methods should be adopted but that the maximum value should be obtained from the workers employed. The policy should be to employ good workers, pay them good wages and give them decent conditions of work. If it is necessary to provide transport for them, that transport should be provided; if it is necessary to provide housing for them, as I think it is, that housing should be provided as convenient as possible to their work. Having done that there should be an all-out effort to ensure that every worker would give of his best in this valuable work. In this connection the spearpoint in the movement for higher efficiency and more economic working is the Department's body of trained foresters. Those men should also be given a status and a remuneration which their important position demands. Many of them are still unestablished civil servants and they should be given full rights as established civil servants. The efficient forester should be given security of employment and the other amenities which the civil servant enjoys.

Having regard to the extent to which afforestation has been carried on in Wicklow, and having regard to the amount of mature timber or nearly mature timber which exists in that county, it is necessary here to point out that the first timber was not planted in County Wicklow after Deputy Cafferky had delivered his maiden speech here in 1943. There was a considerable amount of land under afforestation prior to that date and some of that timber is now matured, and I would like to see established in County Wicklow the industries which are essential for the processing of the timber. These industries ought to be established at the earliest possible date in this county where the raw material is so readily available.

In addition to the State efforts we have also the efforts of private enterprise, which have been referred to. Here again we are not doing sufficient to encourage the average farmer to plant the maximum amount of timber on his farm. A £10 grant for each acre planted by individual farmers is insufficient but, unlike some Deputies, I would be inclined to suggest not so much an increase in the amount of the grant as the provision of credit to a larger extent for the purpose of planting. In addition to a grant the farmer should receive a loan in respect of each acre put under timber.

In that way he would be called upon to invest very little of his own money, as he would receive the State grant of £10 and the loan, which would not be repayable until the timber would come to maturity. That would encourage him to undertake this enterprise. On the other hand the State would have an interest, since the loan would be granted in consideration of a mortgage on each acre of land planted. The State would thus have an interest in the timber and would look after it to a certain extent to see that it was not neglected or destroyed.

I would also suggest that the county committees of agriculture should be asked to undertake on a larger scale than in the past the work of promoting the plantation of timber by farmers. I am not one of those who would go so far as to suggest that additional forestry instructors be appointed by each committee of agriculture. I think that, in conjunction with the Forestry Department, each agricultural instructor should receive additional instruction in afforestation so that he would be able to impart that knowledge within his district. It would be more desirable to have every agricultural instructor giving instruction in afforestation than to have one forestry instructor for an entire county. The principle should be to have the men who are doing this work in close contact with the people concerned. In addition, local committees and associations should be asked to give their help. I am sure that the teachers, if requested, would also co-operate, both in the primary schools and in the vocational or technical schools.

An effort should be made to ensure that every little pocket of waste land —whether it be a matter of only one or two acres, or even less—will be utilised for afforestation. That would add very considerably to the sum total of the timber resources of this nation. There are over 350,000 individual agricultural holders in this country. If on an average each of these holders had an acre or even less than an acre under timber it would, in the aggregate, tot up to a very considerable amount. We should have, in addition, the small shelter belts which are being extended under the auspices of the county committees and which could be even further extended.

The committee of which I am a member are anxious to make additional grants for shelter belts. We were informed that the supplies of plants in the hands of the nurserymen are limited. I should like to know if something is being done to remedy that position? As I understand it, the supply of tree plants for shelter belts is left to private nurserymen. If due notice were given to them, and perhaps some little help from the Forestry Department, I think they would be able to supply the needs of each county.

Another important aspect of forestry is the planting of young trees to replace timber which has been felled. I know that a very considerable amount of valuable timber was felled during the emergency but it is not noticeable that very extensive replanting has been carried out. It is desirable that that should be done. It may be that supplies of plants are not readily available but as soon as they are available it is essential that all land that was denuded of timber should be replanted at the earliest possible date. I do not object to the cutting of mature timber but wherever timber is felled it is most essential to replace it at the earliest possible date and I hope that that will be done.

It was said by a famous forester that a country denuded of its forests is a land leading to decay. If that be true, I am very much afraid that this country is marching in that direction and every effort should be made as speedily as possible to carry out a well-planned scheme of afforestation here. Of all European countries, we have the smallest percentage of land under timber. The country to which we were subject for such a long time at all stages made use of the trees of this country when they required them. Unfortunately, they made no provision to replant the land which was thus denuded of trees. I understand that the percentage of land under forestry in Britain is 25 and in France 30. We know that in Norway forestry is economically the basis of the country.

We have to import a great deal of raw material for our various industries —material which we cannot possibly produce in this country. However, there are various industries for which timber is required and most certainly we should insist that, as the years go by and as more and more of our land is planted with trees, we will use native timber as much as possible for industrial purposes and, if possible, have something over for export.

At the present time we hear a lot of talk about the balance of payments and the adverse trade balance. The large amount of timber which we must import from other countries is responsible to a very serious extent for that adverse trade balance. If it were no longer necessary for us to import such large quantities of timber we could help to close that gap in the balance of payments.

I do not pretend to be an expert on forestry and I am not here to deliver a lecture to our experts and our officials in the Forestry Division. We have full confidence in them. We feel they are doing their best under what are, perhaps, rather difficult conditions. If there is any delay through lack of financial aid, it is not the fault of the officials of the Forestry Division nor, I should say, entirely the fault of the Minister. It may be the fault of another Department. I am sure that every Deputy in the House is anxious to do everything possible to further afforestation. I hope that the start which has been made will be continued and accelerated until eventually the target of the last Minister for Lands— to plant 25,000 acres per year—will be reached. There are difficulties in the way of achieving that objective.

The first step, I suppose, in connection with afforestation is the setting up of nurseries so that as far as possible we will produce in our own land the trees which will be required for planting.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 2nd July, 1952.
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