Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Jul 1952

Vol. 133 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. —Deputy Everett.

Mr. Desmond

Like many other Deputies in this House, in the course of the past 12 months I addressed questions to the Minister in charge of this Department. The answers to some of the questions were satisfactory and the answers to other questions were not. I consider it incumbent upon me to say now that, so far as I am concerned, the attitude of the Minister was the attitude of a gentleman. It is a source of satisfaction to Deputies to be able to address questions to a Minister and to get the information requested in a manner which will not cause arguments and disunity in this House. I wish also to pay a well-deserved tribute to the officials of the Minister's Department. I found in the past 12 months, and for three or four years previous to that time, that when these officials were asked for advice or information affecting their Department, they gave it most readily. It is most gratifying for us in this House to be able to say that the officials of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs can at all times be depended on to give the advice and information which is so essential not only to Deputies but to the people down the country who are depending on the Deputies to help them.

I want to bring the matter of a daily postal delivery service in the rural areas to the attention of the Minister. There is a morning and evening postal delivery, six days in the week, in the cities and large towns, but in parts of the rural areas and in parts of South Cork—the Bandon postal district, for instance—the people receive letters only every second day or, roughly, there are three postal deliveries per week. Within the past two months I received a complaint from a farmer in regard to the postal delivery service in his district. He had placed an order with a person in Killiney, County Dublin, for some day-old chicks. He was notified by post that they would arrive at his postal district on a certain date. The difficulty was that on the date on which they were due to be sent by Córas Iompair Éireann to this particular postal district there was no postal delivery to the farmer's address. It was only by the merest chance that the farmer's young son happened to be some miles from home on that day and was in the vicinity of a district in which letters were being distributed and that he was able to get the letter which was addressed to his father, who was then able to collect the chicks. If the farmer had had to wait until the delivery of the letter in the normal way, it would probably have meant that the day-old chicks would not have survived until they were collected at the depot and that the money paid by him for the chicks would have been wasted. That is just one instance of the inconvenience and hardship caused to people in rural areas by the inadequacy of the postal service.

If the Minister is having this subject reconsidered I hope he will bear in mind the fact that a speedy delivery of letters in rural areas is vitally important to the people who reside there. It is possible that there may not be a large number of letters to be delivered in some of those areas. We should not forget, however, that young men and women have emigrated from those places and that, now and again, they are in a position to send a few pounds home to the old people. Naturally, they send the money through the post and very frequently the old people are watching and waiting for it to enable them to pay the baker or the grocer or some other bills which they incur. Sometimes a delay of even one day in the delivery of a letter which contains money can mean great inconvenience to the old people in the matter of getting their provisions and being able to pay for them on the spot, which they are always anxious and willing to do.

When the daily postal delivery service was instituted in the Cork area where, previously, there had been a postal delivery roughly only three times per week, it proved a godsend to the people there. One official in the Minister's Department who was responsible to a great degree for working out the machinery for putting that daily postal delivery service into motion came from the West Cork area and was aware of the difficulties which faced the people there. Unfortunately, in the middle of this very important work, that official, who was well known for the capable manner in which he discharged his work, died. The postal delivery service in the Bandon and other rural postal districts is a big problem. When the matter is being considered I hope it will not be considered in the light of the cities and large towns versus the rural areas. That attitude will get us nowhere.

Every Deputy who has spoken so far in this debate has mentioned the problem of the auxiliary postman. In the rural areas we frequently come across old men who have given a lifetime of service to the delivery of mails. Some people may say that these men spend only a few hours a day at that particular work and may suggest that they can take up other work also because their Post Office employment is only part-time. That may be true in so far as a young man holding the position of an auxiliary postman is concerned. As these auxiliary postmen advance in years and as they become old, surely it will not be suggested that other employment will be available for them. These men have to travel miles around in the rural areas on very bad roads in many districts. We know that in many instances there is no alternative employment for them. They depend solely on the income they receive from the Post Office as auxiliary postmen. This is a long outstanding problem. It is a problem for which the present Minister is not responsible nor is it one for which his predecessor was responsible. It is a system that has become rooted in the Post Office and which should have been got rid of years ago. By doing something to improve the lot of these men, the Minister would be breaking new ground. This is a problem which vitally affects the people concerned.

I know that they got an increase in wages within the last few years but that was not sufficient. If a man has given 25, 30 or 40 years' service he ought to be classified as a permanent official and, on retirement, he should be entitled to some just reward for his years of service in the office of trust which he has held. In the locality in which I live there were a permanent postman and there auxiliary postmen. The permanent postman retired. Two of the auxiliary postmen had up to 20 years' service, while the other had a longer period of service. They could not be offered the route that was being operated by the permanent postman. The Post Office, under their rules and regulations, had to insist upon getting a permanent postman for that district.

A permanent postman came into the district on several occasions. Finding that the problem of paying for lodgings was so difficult and having regard to the wages, each person who arrived in that area found it did not pay him to stay in the district. That position prevailed for a few years. We had auxiliary men who were born and reared in that parish, men who had given years of highly satisfactory service and yet they could not enjoy the advantage of that particular route, a route in respect of which there was a higher rate of wages than that obtaining in regard to the routes they were servicing. There should be some system whereby consideration would be given to these men. They have only a certain time in which to cover the mileage on certain routes in their district. Inspectors check these routes at various times. I have nothing in the world against the inspectors. They are doing their work honestly and conscientiously. Quite often it happens by accident, not by design, that on a particular day, when an auxiliary postman's route is checked, he has no letters for some of the residents who may be living at the furthest point on that particular route. There can, therefore, be arguments between the postal officials and the auxiliary postmen in regard to a quarter of an hour or half an hour's overtime. I would suggest to the Minister that something constructive should be done to give the auxiliary postmen their due. They should be offered some kind of permanence instead of having them depend on a few pounds' gratuity when they retire after 40 or 45 years' service.

For the last few years the question of public telephones has been to a large extent very well met by the Department. When the Minister's predecessor explained in the House the details of a scheme for Department officials, I admit that some of us may not have been too pleased. I, personally, was not too pleased. All Deputies have their own peculiar problems and I was afraid this scheme might work out in such a way that counties near to Dublin and other counties might get more than their fair slice of the cake. From what I have seen, I will admit that the distribution of public telephones has certainly been done on a very even basis. Progress has certainly been very noticeable.

Now that the problem has been dealt with to such an extent and having regard to the fact that the Minister and his officials have dealt with a heavy share of the demands, I would suggest that the Minister and his Department should concentrate on the problem which faces some of the rural areas owing to the lack of public telephones. Some of the people in these areas are very severely handicapped, particularly in a case of sudden illness, when they may require a doctor or a priest. In sending for either, the messenger may have to go a long distance. The necessity may arise at a time when the messenger may not be conveniently available. Facilities should be provided in cases such as these. They may be small but in themselves such facilities would be of great help to the people in rural areas and would do an immense amount of good for the rural community.

There is another section of the community, the farming community, for whom a public telephone is of the greatest importance. Owing to the advances made in the Department of Agriculture, farmers in certain localities may want to get on to places such as artificial insemination centres. They should have the use of a public telephone when the necessity arises. In the areas, where those facilities are not available, farmers have every right to complain. When Department officials are in a position to report an improvement in meeting the demand for public telephones for other purposes, they should then consider the centres which, up to the present, have no hope of getting these telephones.

I mentioned last year on this Estimate another item—the problem which confronts people in seaside resorts, where there are no public telephone facilities available on Sundays. On that particular occasion the Minister agreed that he would consider the matter. I am not suggesting that the Minister is losing sight of it. It is a matter of which we cannot afford to lose sight. Unfortunately, we read in the newspapers accounts of a few drownings at our seaside resorts every year. Perhaps, sometimes, we actually witness such drownings. As I mentioned last year, there were two very tragic drowning accidents in my own locality on a Sunday, last summer, but if a public telephone service had been available on that day these two lives would have been saved. In view of the fact that we have a long coastline and a large number of permanent seaside resorts, drowning accidents could become widespread. Therefore, I would urge the Minister to see to it that a public telephone service is available on Sundays.

I wish to draw the Minister's attention to the question of giving a weekly half-holiday to the staff of sub-post offices. I am aware that this system operates in some localities, but there are a very large number of places where it does not. It may be argued that some sub-post offices are glorified little grocers' shops as well as being post offices. However, I know of a lot of cases where they are sub-post offices and no more. Of course, there may be a few old cranks who may tell us that it would be impossible for them to carry on if these offices closed for a half-day in the week. They may argue that it would be very inconvenient for them if they could not go to the post office at their own convenience to buy a halfpenny or a two pence halfpenny stamp.

Some years ago, when it was suggested that postmen should not deliver mails on Christmas Day, one would imagine that the end of the world was at hand. However, people have now got into the habit of getting the last delivery of Christmas letters on Christmas Eve, and the postmen have earned the right to leisure on Christmas Day. In the same way, if the postmaster, the post-mistress or their employees were given the advantage of a half-holiday per week, the public would soon adjust themselves to the situation. After all, shops complying with the Shops (Hours of Trading) Act close for a half-holiday per week. I would like the Minister to give me some information on this question of a half-holiday for sub-post offices. Are there any discussions in progress at the present time between the Minister's Department and any union?

The use of delivery vans has been of great help in the speeding up of deliveries in rural areas. It is very gratifying to see letters being delivered early in the morning and collected in the evening by means of this service. I am sure you all heard the older people speaking of the mail coach. Long ago there were no conveniences such as buses available to the public and they depended solely on the mail coach as a mode of conveyance for the delivery of mails. While the mail coach was not a very rapid form of transport, it did its work well. Complaints have been lodged with me as to the excessive speed of the present Post Office delivery vans, and I have observed their speed myself. They are a direct contrast to the mail coach; the drivers believe in putting their boot down. While that may be all right on our main roads, it is a dangerous practice on our by-roads, some of which are badly kept. This high speed operates in many areas all over the country. In fairness to the drivers, they say they are forced to drive at this rapid speed because of the limited time available to them to cover their area. While I do not say that they should model their speed on that of the mail coach, I do not want to see these delivery vans—these headless coaches, as it were—travelling around our badly kept by-roads at a very high speed and leaving headless victims behind. I would like the Minister to have this matter investigated with a view to giving the drivers of these delivery vans sufficient time in which to cover their districts. It is not fair to be forcing them to cover a large area in a very short space of time.

In conclusion, I would like to say how grateful I am for the co-operation which I have got from the Minister and his Department during the past 12 months. If all Departments of State were to give us the same co-operation, I think we would be in a more satisfactory position when we come to examine the yearly Estimates.

Mrs. Rice

I would like to support Deputy Esmonde in his plea for better delivery services for rural areas. We all realise that we are advancing in the use of modern methods, but it is a sad reflection on us that people in rural areas only get letters once or twice a week. I cannot understand why country people cannot be as well catered for as those living in towns and cities. If the Minister has to economise, I hope he will not start by cutting down on the services available to rural areas.

During the British régime a practice was adopted of cutting down postmen's wages by a few shillings per week by means of reducing their employment period. That practice is being continued. Anyone who understands the life of a rural postman, especially in the western part of the country, knows that he has to travel over mountainy roads in very bad weather. It seems very mean that a State Department should come along and try and cut down his wages by a few shillings per week and, perhaps, in some cases, deprive him of his way of living altogether by making the route shorter. If it is desired to bring about economy, the Minister should not start with the lower ranks in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

I heard Deputy Esmonde say that for a number of years postmen have got a gratuity. I am not aware that they have got any gratuity unless they are established. I know of the case of a man who has been a postman for about 50 years and he has no prospect of getting any pension when he retires except the old age pension. If the Government cannot see their way to making these men permanent after a number of years, they should at least give them a gratuity.

It is very important that telephones should be made available for rural areas. Some of these areas have a large population, some of whom live probably six or seven miles from the nearest town. While telephones have been installed in the towns, rural dwellers are as backward as they were 20 or 30 years ago. The Minister should realise that rural dwellers are labouring under many disadvantages, that they are Irish people and that they should be catered for before any other section. I want to stress this point and I hope the Minister will see to it during the coming year that priority is given to all claims for telephones in rural districts.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

I wonder is there the same problem in the other provincial towns as there is in Wexford with regard to the General Post Office there. The Minister has been given many bouquets—I suppose the majority of them are deserved—but I would suggest that he turn his attention to this particular problem. I wonder when will the Social Welfare Department be divorced or at least separated from the Post Office Department. In recent times, I think it is true to say, the officials in the different post offices in the provincial towns throughout the country are at their wits' end to know how to cope with all the different clients who come into the post office. The greatest example of the chaos that exists sometimes in the post offices was amply displayed the week before last when the unfortunate officials there had to deal with hundreds and, in some instances, thousands of claims and payments-out in respect of children's allowances. I do not think it is fair to the staff and I do not think it is fair to the customers and the general public who go in. It has been my experience that I have often been kept waiting for half an hour in the Wexford General Post Office for a couple of 2½d. stamps. I am not laying any blame on the staff. As a matter of fact I want to direct the attention of the Minister to the plight in which these assistants find themselves. They just could not hand me out my stamps.

The primary function of the Post Office, I believe, is to deal with people who want to buy stamps and send telegrams, to receive parcels, to arrange for telephone calls. Now we find that in the post offices in this country a big proportion of the work involves issuing old age pensions, issuing children's allowances, making payments to widows and to orphans, receiving fees for wireless licences and dealing with people who want dog licences. There should be some special office or at least some special counter in the post offices in the big towns, especially in the provincial towns, to deal with all these items I have mentioned, like old age pension payments, widows' and orphans' payments, dog licences, wireless licences, and so one, most of which should be the function of the Department of Social Welfare. If that cannot be done, if there cannot be a separate compartment, a separate office or separate counter to deal with all this social welfare work, the Minister should arrange to have the staff increased, if it only be a temporary increase for the payment of these items on the particular day or days during the week. This would facilitate the public and would take a lot of burdensome work from these unfortunates who have to deal with the clamouring public on many busy days during the week. I appreciate that that would not be feasible in the rural areas; I also appreciate that the rush in the rural post offices would not be as big as it would be, say, in Wexford town, in the City of Kilkenny, in Drogheda, Dundalk, Tralee, Clonmel and towns of such sizes. But I do seriously suggest that there be some attempt to divorce social welfare from the Post Office Department or at least to arrange some separation within the office.

There is another complaint I would like to draw to the attention of the Minister, and that is the length of time which a letter posted in Wexford remains in Wexford. There are two posts out of Wexford; one is at 3.30 p.m. and the other at 8.30 p.m.. That means if I post a letter at 8.30 p.m. in Wexford it is lying in Wexford town for 19 hours before there is any attempt to take it out That is ridiculous. It is very bad service from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to the people of Wexford, and I trust the same thing does not happen all over the country, or I trust it at least does not happen in the other provincial towns. Is it not ludicrous to think that in the year of 1952 if I post a letter at 8.30 at night time, it should stay in Wexford town for 19 hours? That upsets a lot of people. It upsets in particular—and I have been asked to draw the Minister's attention to this —commercial travellers who write the bulk of their letters at night time, and who are not in a position or who are not ready to have them posted until midnight or early the next morning. Most of those letters go to Dublin, and I suggest that if there were a post out of Wexford early in the morning those letters would be delivered on the second or third post in Dublin City. The funny thing about it is that whilst the post is taken out only at 3.30 p.m. and 8.30 p.m., we have trains which leave Wexford around 7 a.m. and another at 10.30 a.m.; there is then the one at 3.30 p.m. and a van which leaves at 9 p.m. There are two trains out of Wexford which do not carry any mail, and I would suggest to the Minister that he would have these trains employed to take mail out of Wexford town and to draw from the areas adjacent to Wexford town as well.

I would support the plea of other Deputies for the auxiliary postmen. The usual reply that is given when we ask that the salaries or the wages of these auxiliary postmen be increased is that they are only part-time. The officials of the Department and the Minister go out of their way to tell us that some of those men work only 20, 25 or 30 hours per week and that they are paid at an hourly rate. In most cases their wages approximate to something like £3 or £3 10s., but certainly they are well below the wages paid to the agricultural labourer or the road worker in the district. As Deputy Desmond pointed out, it is impossible for them to get work after they have completed their 30 hours during the week. If a man is finished delivering the post at 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, there is no farmer going to take him on.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Childers)

The Deputy is making wild generalisations.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

It will be for the Minister to correct me when he stands on his feet. I have in mind a particular case of an auxiliary postman who receives £2 16s. per week or at least he did a few months ago. He worked for about 25 hours per week. When I suggested that an increase be applied to him I was told that he was paid that amount of money for 20 hours' work and that he could go and get some other employment when he finished his 20 hours during the week or when his stipulated number of hours per day were completed. I suggest now that it is absolutely impossible for such people as auxiliary postmen to get work either with a farmer, with the county council or through any of the ordinary sources in the rural areas. The Minister should set his mind towards trying to improve their wages because I believe they should be paid not alone on the basis of the work they do but on the basis of their availability and the service they render.

The Minister should also take this opportunity in his reply of correcting a wrong impression that may have been gained from people who, for the last number of years, have been clamouring for telephones.

I do not know whether the Minister was reported wrongly or not, but certainly in a speech in recent months he complained—I will not use his exact words—that he could not get people in the country to take telephones. That is the interpretation his words appeared to bear as reported. Many people came to me and asked me if I did not think that was the best joke of all time. The people who came to me are quite capable of reading and interpreting speeches for themselves, and that is the interpretation they put on the speech of the Minister as reported in the Press. They thought it was a huge joke. These people had been waiting for years for telephones and suddenly they see the Minister reported as complaining that he cannot get people in the country to take telephones.

As far as my district is concerned, there has been a speed-up in the provision of telephones. I do not know if that is true of other areas also. I think the Minister should take an opportunity now of correcting any wrong impression that may have been created as a result of the report of the speech made by him in recent months, and I would appeal to him to provide extra telephone booths in the larger towns. I do not know whether there is any discrimination in regard to that matter. On what basis are these public telephone kiosks erected? On what grounds does the Minister and his Department decide where these telephone booths are to be placed?

I addressed a parliamentary question within the last 12 months asking how many telephone booths there were in towns similar in size to Wexford. There are two kiosks in Wexford. I understand there are four in some of the other provincial towns with a population similar to that of Wexford. When replying, I would like the Minister to devote some of the time to telling us the basis on which these telephone kiosks are erected in the different provincial towns. In the built-up areas in Wexford there is urgent need for more public telephones. People in corporation housing schemes cannot afford to install private telephones. They have no real or genuine necessity for doing so and it would be a boon to these people if public kiosks were provided for them.

The Minister may, in determining whether or not a kiosk should be erected, try to assess whether or not the erection of such a kiosk would be an economic venture from the point of view of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Irrespective of whether or not the venture is economic, the Minister and his Government have a certain duty to the taxpayers. The local authority is a fairly competent judge as to the necessity for a telephone kiosk, and when a demand is made by the local authority the Minister should make an all-out effort to facilitate that body.

The Minister should also devote his attention to the suggestion made by Deputy Dr. Esmonde. Some effort should be made to ensure that rural doctors get certain facilities during the night as far as the telephone service is concerned. Many of these doctors have no method of making contact with their colleagues, with hospitals or with the towns. Rural doctors ought to have the same telephone facilities as the Gardaí have. In providing those facilities, the Minister would be doing an excellent service not only to the doctors but to the country as well.

Mr. Colley

I would like to know if the Minister has considered the question of delay in relation to the installation of telephones in Dublin. I am not satisfied that the present method is working to the advantage of the people generally. We are told that the Department is making the best possible use of its staff. There is no shortage of materials now as compared with the shortage that was experienced during the emergency. Have adequate steps been taken to recruit and train staff to meet the growing demand? Remember, the demand continues to grow year by year. I believe that the delay experienced at present is discouraging people from applying for telephones.

A man in my constituency applied for a telephone last March 12 months. His neighbour applied for a telephone a few months earlier, but in the previous year. The wires for the purpose of connecting up the first applicant had actually to be brought across the garden of the man who applied last March 12 months. He asked to be connected at the same time and was told that he could not be connected because his application came in the next year. I cannot see where economy in the use of staff comes in there. That man will have to be connected up at some date. Possibly when he is connected up another man 300 or 400 yards away who applied subsequently will not be connected up.

There is a good deal of discontent and it is hard to make people believe that the Department is making the best possible use of its resources. Serious inconvenience is caused to people who have changed their residences and who need telephones for business purposes I know of cases where people have had to be sent out on bicycles or in taxis in order to keep in touch with their business. I appeal to the Minister to do something to relieve the present situation. In particular I would appeal to him to recruit all the staff necessary to implement the policy of the Post Office.

There is another appeal I must make in connection with kiosks in the surburbs. There is no kiosk in Kilbarrack. The people there want a kiosk. It is essential for them that they should have it. I have been trying to get a kiosk for that area for the past seven years. I believe there are other areas where kiosks are required. I suggest to the Minister that the matter is worthy of his consideration.

Mr. S. Collins

I want to direct the Minister's attention to certain matters that are causing worry in my constituency. There are certain areas, to which I have adverted in parliamentary questions, particularly Rossmore and Leap, where a revision of the postal delivery is acutely necessary. I know that the Minister has general reorganisation problems to face but in these particular cases it is only adjustment and reallocation of the time schedule that is necessary to meet the particular demand.

There is a good deal of agitation in my area with regard to the phones in post offices. I have already seen the Minister about the matter but I would direct his attention to it again. In some cases there is no cubicle or guard around the phone and there is not the privacy that might be required in certain instances. The Minister is aware of the instinctive inquisitiveness of people in rural areas. It would be well if that matter were attended to quickly as some people do not use the phone in the local post office for that reason.

In general, I would ask the Minister, as did my colleague, Deputy Dockrell, to be very slow to burden the best-paying department, the telephone department, with increased costs. If increased costs have to come in any serious way, I suggest to the Minister that other charges should be stepped up first rather than give another crack to the telephone subscribers to whom a very considerable impost has been meted out.

The House in general must feel satisfied in the main with the effort made by the Department in the last number of years to improve the situation. I cannot understand the difficulty that exists in getting personnel for telephone work. At some stage, installation of telephones may call for highly skilled technicians, but it should be possible to obtain personnel for the normal line-laying and connecting, which would give a considerable impetus to the effort. The Minister may tell me that, particularly in Dublin, the hold-up was caused by complications arising out of the building of the automatic exchange at Ballsbridge, but I would urge the Minister, as that situation rights itself, to make use of ex-servicemen of the Signal Corps where they are available, to implement his staff with men trained in line communications and telecommunication. In that way he would be serving the public well, and at the same time would be placing confidence in personnel retired from the Army, which would be gratifying to any of us interested in the replacement and resettlement of Army personnel.

The Department can no longer adduce scarcity of supply as an argument in their defence. I am interested in one particular feature of the Department as a result of my membership of the Public Accounts Committee. I would direct the Minister's attention to what I consider an unreasonable difficulty that is arising in his Department in connection with supplies. There seems to be inordinate delay in the fulfilment of contracts, particularly in relation to engineering stores. Would the Minister review that particular type of buying by his Department, and include penalty clauses in the contract or ensure that, in the event of a contract being placed firmly, the public would not be mulcted for interim increases in the cost of the articles? My mind is agitated by the fact that in the period between placing of contracts and delivery there has often been a considerable increase in the cost of material. One wonders if the public and the Department can be held to ransom in that way.

I do not wish to prolong the debate. I just wish to make the points, particularly apropos of the delivery problem in my constituency. It is a rugged district and some places are isolated. I would like the Minister to do what he can to speed up delivery there. The Minister will appreciate that if we are to succeed in making rural Ireland more attractive and in consolidating the population in rural Ireland, we must provide first-class amenities no matter what the ultimate Exchequer cost will be.

In a system as large as the Post Office is, the strong area should be able to carry the weak. I would urge that point of view. The Minister did tell me that they were experimenting with some kind of cowled kiosk or a cowl cover on the counter for telephones. I would like to know from him when he is replying if that experiment has been successful. I would ask him to enhance the value of the phone in local post offices in rural districts by giving them that added touch of privacy which will enable people to use them more frequently.

Mr. Briscoe

I will be very brief. The more brief we are on this Estimate the more success we will have in getting our points of view seriously considered.

First of all, I think the Post Office will have to recognise that, particularly with reference to the telephone section, they are, in fact, in relation to the public almost entirely a commercial undertaking, that the public who become subscribers regard the Post Office as they would regard a service for which they pay to any commercial undertaking. It is in that sense that the Post Office should recognise the public and react to their request for service and to the possibilities of additional business.

A great deal of the discussion has centred around the installation of telephones, the lag in meeting the demand in certain areas and the suggestion that saturation point has been reached in other areas. I can only speak with experience of Dublin. I find, like my colleague, Deputy Colley, that a great number of people in my area complain seriously that they have been trying for considerable periods to have a telephone installed, without success. We are told, when the Minister replies to questions, that this matter is being dealt with on the basis of priority of claim, in other words, the earlier the application the sooner the service, and that later applications must go on a waiting list. I believe that that is not the full picture. I believe that there are certain areas, particularly in Dublin, where the lines are overloaded and that the delay in getting connections is due to the fact that the wires serving a particular district will not carry any more subscribers. I wonder whether the engineering section of the Post Office will seriously consider that and deal with it.

Then, time and again, we have interference with our telephone service by weather conditions and breakdowns. There are, of course, ordinary breakdowns as well. But the manner in which telephones which are out of order are dealt with leaves much to be desired. I wonder whether more prompt attention could not be paid to attending to telephones which are out of order. I do not think it needs any words of mine to convince the Minister or the Post Office staff that when one has a telephone, particularly if one belongs to a profession or is carrying on a business, it is of vital importance that the telephone should be available at all times. If a telephone is left out of order for 24 or 48 hours it causes the greatest inconvenience and, in many cases, a very serious loss to the subscriber. The Post Office will have to remember that in relation to most of its services, particularly the telephone service, it is a firm dealing with customers. Every subscriber is a client and is entitled to the greatest courtesy and speedy attention to any complaints made.

I want to ask the Minister again to investigate the areas that are overloaded to the extent that new subscribers cannot be connected and see if something cannot be done to improve the situation. I should also like to ask him, if there is any reason to believe that some of the cables laid, particularly in recent years, have been found to be faulty, if it would not be better to take up the faulty cables and put down new ones which will give satisfactory service for a long period of years rather than carry out temporary repairs to them.

Then there is the question of trunk calls. Those of us who have to make trunk calls sometimes find ourselves subject to very long delays. I know that there is a great improvement in this respect between Dublin and Cork because a new cable has been laid and the delays on that service are not very serious. But, on the cross-Channel trunk service, there appears to be unreasonable delay. I do not know whether anybody has had the experience of trying to get a cross-Channel trunk call between 7 p.m. and 7 a.m. In many cases there is a delay of two or three hours and in other cases there is such delay that it is too late for the parties concerned to communicate with each other. Something will have to be done to make the trunk call connections much more speedy than they are. Even in some parts of this country where there has been industrial development and where the telephone is of such commercial importance, there are delays of half an hour and even one hour during the ordinary working hours. This is a commercial undertaking of the State, particularly the telephone service, and the Post Office will have to recognise that if it wants to make it pay and be satisfactory to the taxpayers it will have to be as progressive as any private undertaking. I therefore hope that some notice will be taken of the matters which have been raised in this debate.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I regret I cannot view this Vote as brightly as it has been viewed by some previous speakers. First of all, I believe that it is impossible to over-emphasise the importance of a daily delivery service for every part of the country. I represent a constituency which suffers probably more than any other from restricted postal deliveries. During the period of office of the Minister's predecessor he laid down a system which, if it had been continued. I believe would have solved this problem within two years.

Mr. Childers

It is being continued.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I can only read one thing into the statement made by the Minister in introducing this Vote with regard to the daily delivery service—that he has sounded the death knell of the system introduced by Deputy Everett when he was Minister. Here is what the Minister said, as reported in column 179 of Volume 133 of the Official Report of 3rd July:—

"In view of what I have already said about the worsening of the Department's financial position, I feel compelled to sound a warning note regarding the implementation of the scheme for the extension of daily deliveries to all rural areas. The scheme was originally undertaken on the understanding that, taking the rough with the smooth. the Exchequer would not be required to bear any additional expenditure. The stage has now been reached when, having regard to increased staff wages and increased charges generally for mechanical transport, petrol, etc., I am not fully satisfied that the implementation of the scheme in its entirety will not impose a burden on the Exchequer. I am, therefore, having the whole position reviewed."

I infer from that statement that, so far as extending the daily delivery service is concerned, the Minister is reviewing the position and that the only result of that review will be that he will put a complete stop to the scheme initiated by Deputy Everett. That is the only inference anyone can draw from such a statement. I should like to know from the Minister his reasons for such an attitude

Many city Deputies have complained about the telephone facilities provided in Dublin and stated that they are not sufficiently up-to-date. In many parts of my constituency there are a number of people who do not know what a telephone is; they probably never saw one. When Dublin Deputies are clamouring for extended telephone facilities for this city and the areas contiguous to it, surely it is in order for a rural Deputy to make a case for the people down the country getting at least a daily delivery of letters to their houses. You have a twice daily delivery of letters in Dublin and in many parts of the country and in other parts of the country a delivery only every other day. That is most unfair and unjust. There is no justifiable reason for such discrimination. If people in some parts of the country are entitled to a twice daily delivery of letters and to extended telephone facilities, surely the people in other parts of the country are at least entitled to a daily delivery of letters.

I am sure the Minister realises the importance of people getting their letters daily. These letters may contain news of urgent importance. The Minister, therefore, should review his policy. According to his opening statement, he is afraid that the extension of the daily delivery may place a burden on the Exchequer. Even if the Minister's contention is correct, surely those people living in isolated parts of the country are entitled to this facility even though it places a burden on the Exchequer. The saving of expense is a very lame excuse for not going ahead with this policy of daily deliveries initiated by his predecessor.

If that policy were put into operation it would dispose of many of the arguments put forward on behalf of the short-time postmen, because, if there were six day deliveries in all these areas, it would mean that the service would have to be reorganised and that would result in a number of part-time postmen being made whole-time officers. It is very desirable that that reorganisation of services should be carried out as soon as possible, as undoubtedly the wages of rural postmen and of these part-time postmen at present, as various Deputies have pointed out, are entirely inadequate. A wage ranging from something over £2 to £3 15s. per week is no wage at present and it is about time that the claims of these rural postmen, and of the town postmen as well, were examined and something done to give them justice. They are at least entitled to that. It may be said, as Deputy Mac Fheórais mentioned, that they are only part-time employees, but in view of the fact that they work for five or six hours in the middle of the day— from 11 o'clock until 3 o'clock, 4 o'clock and, in some country districts, 5 o'clock—it is impossible for them to find other gainful employment.

The Minister spoke of cost and of the burden which an extension of these facilities would impose on the Exchequer. Taking my own postal area in West Cork, Bandon is the head office for most of that area and it is from Bandon that all the letters to the western portion of the county are delivered. The Minister told me, in reply to a parliamentary question seven or eight months ago, that the present method of delivering letters in West Cork cost from £3,000 to £4,000 more than it would cost if the Post Office organisation carried out the work. The work is being carried out by Córas Iompair Éireann road services at present and I cannot see any reason why the postal services should subsidise Córas Iompair Éireann to the extent of £3,000 or £4,000, so far as West Cork is concerned. That is a definite statement of fact which I make on the Minister's own figures. If the Minister saves this sum of £3,000 odd which is at present being wantonly expended, so far as his Department is concerned, it would solve many of the difficulties we are faced with in West Cork and would enable the rural areas where there are restricted postal services at present to have a daily delivery without costing the Exchequer one halfpenny.

There is another section of postal workers who are deserving of more consideration than they are getting. I know that all these cases involve money, but, at the same time, it is only right that the grievances of any section of the postal service should be brought forward during this debate. I refer to rural sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses. Even though the work in some of the isolated offices may not be very heavy or the volume of business transacted very great, it is more or less a whole-time job. Some of these sub-postmistresses are paid a wage as low as £1 per week in some cases, and there is no one can contend that even if it were only a matter of keeping the door open that is adequate compensation for their work. These sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses are entitled to more consideration than they are getting, particularly in view of the fact that whatever business they are doing has increased greatly all over the country of late. Children's allowances and other benefits are paid through the Post Office, and more work is transacted in these places now than was the case in past years.

Another category of Post Office employees whom I would place in the same position are the clerical assistants in the various post offices throughout the country. Usually a clerical assistant is appointed to an area away from his home, and his first expense is, on the average, 50/- a week for board and lodging. If we take 50/-weekly, which I believe to be a fair sum for board and lodging, from his weekly wage, we find that he has very little left, and, in view of the rapid increase in the cost of living recently, it is only right that their pay should be reviewed and stepped up, to bring it into line with the pay and conditions obtaining in somewhat similar services, services which do not carry the responsibility with which the Post Office clerk has to contend. He is faced with the responsibility of handling probably hundreds of pounds in the week, in the shape of deposits, payments for stamps, and so on, and his is therefore a responsible position, much more responsible than that of a clerk in a local authority office or a private business office. Their pay is not commensurate with their work, and they are definitely entitled to have their position reviewed as early as can be.

Another item which I was asked by a few people to mention here is connected with the Post Office Savings Bank. In the majority of provincial towns and in many of the rural post offices facilities are available to people for lodging any spare money they have to their accounts in the savings bank, but these facilities are, in my opinion, very inadequate. The Irish people traditionally like to transact their business privately and that condition cannot obtain so far as making deposits in many of our provincial town post offices and all village post offices is concerned, because when a depositor goes into the post office to lodge £1 or £10, his book is put on the counter. The clerk may have to attend to some other customer, or even if he remains there, the man's neighbour may come in and be curious to ascertain the wealth of the man making the deposit. That may seem funny, but I know that people take exception to it. They want to keep whatever amount of money they have in the Post Office private and they do not want to let their neighbours know that they have £10, £20 or £1,000 in the Post Office Savings Bank.

That state of affairs does not exist so far as the banks are concerned. If you are lodging money in a bank there are facilities, if you wish to request them, for going into a private room to transact your business, away from the gaze of the public, with some official of the bank, and I contend that the depositor going into the post office is entitled to equal facilities. If, for some reason of his own which he is perfectly entitled to hold, he requires his business to be transacted privately, there should be some room or some place cut off from the general office where he will be enabled to transact his business without other people who may come into the post office knowing all about it. I think that is a very fair contention, and in rural towns it would be very easy to put this idea into effect. People are entitled to have their business dealt with privately.

Almost all Deputies have mentioned the need for telephone facilities. I believe that the need is even greater in country districts than in the cities and towns because I feel sure, irrespective of the complaints of city and large town Deputies, that they are fairly well provided for at present and have no real grievance. That is not the position in country areas and it has worsened a good deal of late since the measure was introduced whereby Gárda stations close at nine o'clock. No matter how urgent a phone message to a country district may be, at the present moment it is impossible to put it through because the Gárda stations were the only places which were open to receive a call and they are now closed. Some measure should be adopted to counteract that. I cannot see for the life of me why in fair sized villages a public kiosk could not be erected and connected with a call office with an all night service. Then if a man or woman in a village required to send an urgent message or required the services of a priest, a doctor, a minister or other professional person a call could be put through such a kiosk and that would rectify the whole position. People living in villages and small towns are entitled to that service, particularly as the Gárda stations are not open after nine o'clock.

I would like again to impress on the Minister the importance of daily deliveries to rural districts. I would ask him to continue the policy so capably pursued—and there is no question of doubt about that—by his predecessor in office, Deputy Everett, for three and a quarter years, a policy which was very welcome to many people in isolated rural areas. Through it they found means of getting their letters daily and of enjoying facilities which have been enjoyed for years back by other sections of the community. I would ask the Minister to change his view on this system, even though it may cost the Exchequer a little more, and give the people of rural Ireland and the rural postmen now under his charge the justice and fair play which, I believe not altogether through his fault, some are not getting at present.

Mr. Rooney

I would like to carry on where the previous speaker stopped and ask the Minister to carry out the work of his Department as vigorously as his predecessor, Deputy Everett. During the three years he held office we saw remarkable progress not alone on the technical but on the administrative side of the Post Office. Apart from the statement he made in this House, the Minister has so rarely referred to the work of his Department in his public pronouncements that it is hard to know what his policy is. I was glad to note from his statement that stockpiling of essential materials for the Post Office took place during his predecessor's time. It was denied a good many times that there was any stockpiling while at other times it was alleged that stockpiling did take place. However, in this case we are glad to hear that there was stockpiling and that we have a quantity of useful materials in the Post Office which will enable normal expansion and technical development to take place.

I would appeal to the Minister to provide more telephone kiosks. He might do so even on O'Connell Bridge where there is a number already, because even there we see people waiting their turn. It has been shown in this Estimate, and the Minister has himself stated, that there has been good revenue from telephones. Considering that there are 5,500 people still on the list waiting anxiously for a telephone to be fitted we can appreciate that there is an opportunity there to increase revenue. The more rapidly these people are provided with telephones the surer we can be that revenue will increase. It may be argued that the cost of installing a kiosk is rather high; somebody mentioned £150. Even with that expense we can rest assured that in time the capital expenditure will be refunded and in the meantime the people will have the benefit of that service.

I would like to mention, for instance, the town of Swords, where there is no telephone kiosk. People who want to call a doctor or to put through an urgent call have no public telephone kiosk. There is a post office there, of course, but it is closed at certain times, closed for longer periods than it is open. It is not open at all on Sunday, it is closed for a half-day and it is closed after a certain time in the evening, and during these times no telephone service is available to the people of Swords. They must seek a telephone either in a private house or in a public house, but they cannot go independently to a public telephone kiosk. That is only one example. Palmerstown, a rapidly developing area, has also been left without a telephone kiosk. West Cappagh, Finglas, the Navan Road and Wadelai at Ballymun are places where there is rapid building development and where the population is quickly increasing. A telephone service is only one of the many amenities which they lack and some effort should be made to ensure that it will be available to them.

Therefore, I appeal to the Minister to provide, if it is at all possible, as many kiosks as he can. I do not care how cheaply they may be erected. We need not erect kiosks which will last for 1,000 years because it is probable that a different type of service will be available by that time. If we put up any durable type of box I believe that it will be quite sufficient in view of the changing times and the altering techniques in telephonic engineering.

The Minister might consider providing auto-cycles for postmen in certain rural areas. It would not be necessary in all areas, but in certain rural districts it would be to the advantage of everybody concerned. In populous districts, of course, bicycles are more suitable, and in built-up areas it is a more practicable proposition for postmen to travel on foot, but there are rural areas where there is a big, scattered population and the postman must cover a large mileage.

In these districts I feel that postmen should be provided with auto-cycles in order to provide the public with an efficient service. The Minister knows as well as I do that there are districts, even in County Dublin, where postmen are obliged to travel on foot still. They have to walk up to ten miles every morning to carry out their deliveries. I feel that an effort should be made to provide these postmen at least with bicycles. I do not suggest that auto-cycles should be provided where they have to walk, say, only ten miles, because I am sure city postmen have to walk similar distances, but the fact that in rural areas, even in County Dublin, a postman has to cover ten miles on foot seems to suggest that our postmen are not provided with up-to-date equipment.

Deputy Briscoe mentioned that there was need for efficiency in the Post Office, that it should be considered as a commercial undertaking at the service of the public and in a position to give the public an efficient and prompt service. I should like to say that in a general way the post service is efficient. Exceptional cases, of course, arise now and again and it is unfortunate that these exceptional cases tend to detract from the reputation for very good service that is available from the Post Office generally. You have, for instance, very efficient telephone operators and some inefficient ones, too. The subscriber has to put up with what he gets, when he is operating through exchanges, and it is unfortunate that the same high level of efficiency is not always displayed. I was wondering whether any method of identification could be used to ensure that the inefficient operators could be made known. In a general way, the public have no redress. Occasionally the public are harshly treated by operators but they have no redress. If there was some system which would ensure that inefficiency of that character could be eliminated, I do not think we would have any reason to complain of inefficiency in the working of the Post Office.

I should like to say finally that I hope that the threat to which the Minister gave expression the other day in regard to the increased cost of postage will not materialise and that he will find some other way of meeting the deficit. If postal charges are increased many people will be obliged to economise in their expenditure on correspondence. Instead of sending out three letters at the time, they may send out only two. The result will be that a smaller revenue will be obtained than if the postal charges were not increased. I should rather see instead some measure of encouragement which would have the effect of bringing our people to realise the value of the postal services and would induce them to make wider use of them.

I hope that the Minister will try during the present year to provide telephone connections for the 5,500 people who are on the waiting list. They have been on the waiting list I think for a considerable time in some cases. I know that some people who could not get telephone connections when they originally applied for them have abandoned the idea altogether. Some of these people have renewed their applications and they are again being asked to take their place on the long waiting list. I hope that in the coming year the Minister will be able to provide these people with services.

I should like to know what is the position regarding the telephone link between Dublin and Belfast, via Drogheda and Dundalk. I remember that a couple of years ago it was proposed to provide a trunk line such as that from Dublin to Cork. I do not know what has happened in the meantime but I should like to know from the Minister just what are the plans concerning the provision of that link between Dublin and Belfast via Drogheda and Dundalk.

Mr. Childers

First of all I should like to thank Deputies who paid tribute to the work of the Department and to the improvements that have taken place in the course of the past year. I am grateful for the appreciation which they have expressed of the efforts by the officers and so many workers, numbering 15,000 persons in all, to provide better facilities for the public. Having started in that way, I feel, as a person who has not had very much experience of Estimate work, that I may perhaps have been too optimistic in supposing that if I delivered a very long speech in introducing the Estimate, Deputies would do me the favour of listening to it because very many of the questions to which answers have been asked by Deputies have already been answered in that speech, including all sorts of questions relating to matters such as silence cabinets. It makes one feel inclined to take less trouble in preparing one's introductory speech if one knows that questions are going to be asked, whether one gives the information sought in advance or not. However, the Estimate has been received very courteously by Deputies and I must assume that the fact that they did not refrain from asking questions which had in fact already been answered is not to be attributed to any feeling of dissatisfaction with the service as a whole.

I may add that I see absolutely no justification in any of the speeches for the motion to refer back the Estimate. There are I know certain Estimates which are of a particularly contentious character and in which contentious questions of policy may be involved, where it is usual to have such motions, but we have heard nothing of that kind during the course of the discussions on the Estimate. Having listened carefully to Deputy Everett I was satisfied that he could not find any precedent in the last 20 years on which to base his motion to refer back this Estimate. That is all I have to say on that question.

In answer to Deputies who referred to the general question of the deficit in the accounts, I should like first of all to say that I am well aware of the commercial character of the telephone services and that to increase charges is a most dangerous thing to do because it discourages the telephone habit. I can assure Deputies that whatever may happen in connection with this deficit, it is not proposed to take any immediate action and that in whatever action is ultimately taken due regard will be had to the state of the telephone finances, bearing in mind the fact that the more reasonable the charges the higher the profits will be eventually. Deputies can be assured, I think I can say without any exaggeration, that the telephone charges will be the last to be increased of all the charges, which are capable of being increased, in an effort to reduce the deficit.

Deputy Everett, like a number of Deputies on the Opposition, talked lightly about the deficit as though a sum of £1,000,000 was something which could be easily forgotten. It is a very considerable sum, and even if the cost of stockpiling is eliminated, and the estimated loss is given as £860,000, it means in popular terms, I think I am right in saying, a penny on the pint of stout. That is a serious matter and no Deputy has contradicted my statement that the richer users of the service should pay for the social element of losses involved in the three services. No Deputy in fact can prove that the richer users should not pay for the social element of loss rather than that it should be paid for by any other kind of taxation. The usership of the three services is, roughly speaking, with obvious exceptions, in proportion to the wealth of the persons concerned, just, as in the case of the ordinary State accounts, there are people who indulge in certain taxable amusements in proportions which in a few cases may not relate to their income, in general the wealthier pay higher taxes.

The very obvious deduction is that, just as people pay income-tax in order to defray the cost of the social services, a transfer, in part, from the richer section of the community to the poorer section, so the richer users of the departmental services should be asked to pay something towards the loss on remote telephone call offices, on small post offices and on the long distance delivery of telegrams. I think they should be asked to pay some of the loss. I am quite aware that taxation, or, at any rate, the greater part of it, has its psychological effects and that people can always find exceptions to every statement. Nevertheless, I am very glad to notice that no Deputy has contradicted what I have said in general.

I should also like to make it quite clear that the loss has arisen, almost entirely, between the period 1952-53 and the period 1950-51. I have not indulged in any extravagant experiments. I have not arbitrarily increased costs in any direction. I have insisted on an economy campaign and a campaign of increased efficiency. The officers of my Department, extremely able men, do all they can to avoid unnecessary forms and unnecessary red tape of every description. I know that economies in working have actually been effected to the value of £10,000 a year since the Estimate was framed. That shows what can be done by improved methods of organisation and of working. The increase in staff pay, which was very merited, related to other increases which took place as a result of the Civil Service award, amounted to £592,000, and the pension liability to £51,000, making a total of £643,000. That was, roughly, equal to the difference in the deficit between the two periods I have mentioned— 1950-51 and 1952-53.

We are, therefore, up against, as I have said, a rather typical case of inflation. It is a case of inflation about which there need be no political dispute or disagreement. Neither in 1950-51 nor in 1952-53 did the revenue of these services increase by anything like a sufficient rate to cover these increased salary awards which were considered essential because of the increase in the cost of living which has been taking place since 1948. Everyone knows the international reasons for the increase in cost of living. Every country has had to face this difficulty. It is a matter about which there need be no argument. I mention it just as an example of inflation, for which the present Government cannot be held responsible since the traffic did not increase either in the year before the present Government took office or in this year in a manner to cover the cost.

I have dealt with the background of the Estimate so far as finance is concerned. I do want to stress, once again, that we are doing everything we can to improve efficiency, and not only to reduce costs but to reduce the mental strain on the officials. If the volume of traffic has increased by anything from 70 to 100 per cent. since 1939, and if the staff only goes up by 27 per cent., we want by improved methods not only to ensure the happiness of the staff but to reduce costs as well. I should say, without exaggeration, that the hundreds of changes that have been made in the direction of abolishing forms and of simplifying forms and financial checks, of abolishing red tape that is no longer necessary, have all contributed to that end. I should like to emphasise that again because the Civil Service is supposed, by the public, to be universally inefficient. I guarantee that if any group of finance experts or industrial experts were to come into the service of the Post Office—although I believe they would probably suggest improvements since nothing can be perfect—they would find that a very great deal had been done to improve efficiency, just as though the Post Office were a wholly commercial organisation without having the social obligations which we accept and carry out for the sake of the community as a whole.

I propose now to deal with some of the many inquiries which were made to me. I do not think I can promise to deal with every point that was raised. I shall try, however, to deal with the more important ones. If Deputies feel disappointed, they can always address a question to me personally or ask a parliamentary question at a later date if I do not give an answer to all their questions now Deputy Colley referred to delays in the provision of telephones in the Dublin area. Well, we have not been doing too badly in the first six months of this year. I think we installed nearly 300 more telephones than in the first six months of last year. In the year 1951 we installed more telephones in Dublin than in the year 1950. We are going ahead with that work as fast as we can. I should like to refer to some of the difficulties which were raised by Deputy Colley about a person being refused a telephone while his neighbour was able to get one, although there was an area clearance being effected. There must always, obviously, with the limited staff available, be some deadline that will apply to telephones in respect of any particular area clearance. For example, we may decide to do the Rathmines area, taking a given date, say, the 1st January, as the deadline for applications. If, on reaching the area, we decide to take the applications coming in in the February following, inevitably we delay our machinery and workers going, say, to the Harold's Cross area. That is one of the unfortunate things we have to face. There must be a ruthless attitude with regard to the deadline applying to any clearance area. There must be a deadline, and so late applications must await the next turn. That is very sad but it is true. All the tyranny of mathematics in relation to time affects voting and divisions in the Dáil in the same manner as it effects the telephone service.

In regard to kiosks, we installed 23 in 1951, and seven of these were in Dublin. We have already established 20 this year, a proportionate number of them being in Dublin. We are always increasing the number as the city swells and grows. I think there are altogether 141 kiosks in Dublin City alone. I promise to take due account of Deputy Colley's and of other people's representations in regard to the point of establishing more kiosks. We believe that a kiosk should pay for itself. We have call offices for social purposes, many of which do not pay. A kiosk has an annual charge attached to it of £35 per annum. We are establishing them mostly in towns of over 1,500 people. In towns of larger population we have one or more kiosks in addition to the public telephone in the post office. We believe that, on the whole, it is best for kiosk service to pay for itself. We offer local authorities the chance, if they so desire, of guaranteeing the minimum annual charge on a kiosk, so that, in a new housing scheme designed or constructed by a local authority, if there is tremendous clamour for a telephone kiosk—particularly in an area where there is already a call office and possibly a kiosk in another area of the town—we may decide it is up to the local authority, if they so desire, to guarantee the annual charge, to pay any sum due. If people who clamour for the telephone are right in thinking that the kiosk will be freely used then the local authority will not have to pay on any guarantee. This seems, on the whole, to be a pretty fair offer.

Deputy Rooney made the suggestion that there was some need for improvement in the manners of operators. I listened to him with patience, but I have been so delighted with the improvement in the whole atmosphere of the telephone exchange and with the tremendous improvement in the telephone operators that I feel I can ignore Deputy Rooney's observations. All I can say is that the manager of the trunk exchange has recorded a most delightful increase in the number of commendations of the staff and a decrease in the number of complaints, in the course of the last 12 months. The good work of improving the position there is still going on. The staff themselves fully understand that they are in many ways the show piece of Government activity in this country. They have work involving very great tension to perform and they are in contact with the people more than any other section of the service, from the standpoint of having to exercise efficiency at all times. There has been a fine spirit of co-operation shown in regard to this whole matter. We, on the other hand, are improving their amenities very considerably and also the amenities of the night telephone operators.

Deputy Briscoe referred to delays in repairs to the telephone system where breakdowns occurred. Deputy Briscoe cannot have read the Estimate. If he had he would find that we are now dealing with long-term cable repair and reconstruction in Dublin City. It has been deferred for far too long a period and we have to divert staff temporarily so that that work may be done. The result of repairing and reconstructing the underground cable system will make it easier later on to join applicants for service, reduce the time taken to effect repairs and should result in an all round improvement in the efficiency of the system.

Deputy Briscoe also referred to the delays in cross-Channel calls and there again I mentioned in introducing the Estimate that next year there will be another 60 circuits available for cross-Channel calls and there should be a great improvement. Indeed, at most times a "no delay" service to Britain, other things being equal, will be provided. I cannot give an absolute guarantee about this, but there should be a "no delay" service established gradually from the time these circuits come into operation.

Deputy Corish referred to the overcrowding of the post office at Wexford. I feel that that must be somewhat exceptional. We find that we have people who take records of the length of time that queues wait. As Deputies know, there is frequently a fairly quickly moving queue at the General Post Office. We get complaints suggesting that people have waited for a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes, when in reality it must have been something like one-twentieth of that time. The circumstances must have been very exceptional on the day on which Deputy Corish visited Wexford Post Office. I should be glad to have particulars from him. Although we know there are certain times when there are bound to be queues, we like the queues to move rapidly. I hope that Deputy Corish's references were slightly exaggerated, as I believe they were.

Deputy Desmond referred to the speed of mail vans. The schedules do not provide for an exceptional speed. If the Deputy was nearly beheaded, or if any of his relatives were, by a mail van, he should give particulars.

In regard to half-day closing, the post office closes for half a day where that is the practice of the shops in the district. If a sub-postmaster wishes to be in a position to follow the practice in his district, he should ask permission from the head postmaster of the area and his representations will receive sympathetic consideration.

Deputy Norton referred to the sorting office. I quite agree with him that there have been very great delays in providing up-to-date buildings in the centre of Dublin, particularly those concerned with the sorting and main distribution of the parcel post and the post. I think that the sorting office question has been under consideration for nearly 20 years. All I can do is assure the Deputy that the legal formalities in regard to the site for a new sorting office are nearing their end and we are actually making a preliminary investigation in regard to the character of the building so that when the site is assured steps can be taken to provide working drawings for the new office. I am aware that a number of these buildings are out of date. We are making every effort to meet the situation. I think that we will find by the end of this year that the Board of Works have acceded to the pressure we have brought to bear on them for the redecoration of district post offices and improved staff facilities and for speeding up this work. As Deputy Norton knows, the Post Office, unfortunately, tends to come at the end of the queue because of matters such as schools and other buildings that are considered to have greater importance from the social point of view. I can assure the Deputy that I am trying to get an improvement in the decoration of Post Office buildings because, as I have already indicated, I regard them as show pieces of Government activity. Although not as important as the question of slum houses and schools, they play a very great part in the life of the community and I am doing all I can in the matter.

Deputy Norton also referred to the position of the night telephonists in Exchequer Street Exchange and other areas. The question of their conditions is being very actively considered. It is not being put on the long finger. I visited the Exchequer Street Exchange informally last night, to discover to my delight that the men's retiring room is being constructed and their amenities in that building, not originally designed as a telephone building, are being improved. The conditions in the new St. Andrew Street Exchange will be better, as we have experience of what we need. I hope to be able to make a decision about the position of the night telephonists. I am aware that the fact that there is a continual wastage of the staff is a bad sign. As the Deputy is aware, night telephone work suits certain types of people, who take it on as a short-term job. They do not always leave because they find the conditions unsuitable. Sometimes they leave because it forms part of their career arrangements. Some of them, however, do leave because continuous night work of this type is not frequently found in other industries or trades.

In regard to postmen's uniforms, I can assure Deputy Norton that the staff associations will be consulted when any proposals are made and that their advice will be welcomed by the committee. I am not satisfied with the postmen's uniform. I am not satisfied that it is as pleasant looking, as comfortable or as convenient as it could be and that is why I asked that the matter be examined.

Deputy Norton also referred to the bag-cleaning facilities. I will have the Sovex bag-cleaning machine examined from the standpoint of its suitability for our service. We had an estimate of the cost as compared with the present contract system. The Department of Justice generally secures that contract for bag cleaning as indicated by the Deputy, and we find that in relation to present costs we would not be justified in purchasing the machine. The vast bulk of the bags are undoubtedly cleaned in Mountjoy, although sub-contracts are given out. The bags are thoroughly disinfected and, as far as I can gather, it is generally understood that the dust is fairly well removed from the bags. Under the present system, where there is a float of 500 bags being cleaned every week, we have not had many complaints, but I will go into the question again of mechanising the cleaning of the bags.

Deputy Dr. Esmonde referred in his speech to the capital raised for telephone development work. I want to make it quite clear that capital was raised for telephone development long before the Coalition Government took office. The capital repays itself. For many years before 1948 telephone capital expenditure has been regarded as the orthodox type of investment, because the capital is repaid in an assured manner according to the best economic standards. The principle of capital development has always been maintained in connection with telephone development, and was so maintained by the Government between the years 1932 and 1948.

Several Deputies including Deputy Dr. Maguire, Deputy Dr. Esmonde and Deputy Corish referred to the tests applied to postmen to see whether they are working efficiently. They are given every chance to appeal against an unfair decision and we have not had many complaints in that regard. The office do their best to test the time these men take. I do not think Deputies need feel that the staff are in any way driven too fast by the supervisors who accompany them on their rounds.

Deputy Hickey made some reference to the factor of interest on capital in connection with the rental demanded of telephone subscribers. No excessive amount is demanded. I can assure the Deputy and the House that the average amount required for interest and depreciation on a particular telephone line is about £10 per annum and that the average rental charge is less than that amount. Poles, wires and instruments have constantly to be renewed. The rental is supposed to cover the charge in respect of interest, depreciation, renewal and so forth. The call charges are supposed to cover the actual cost of operating the telephone service itself as distinct from maintenance. I do not think there is any unusual feature in regard to the interest rate. Whatever special views which I know the Deputy has on the question of interest and the questions of capital and finance, I do not think he has any reason to complain of the conduct of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in regard to the manner in which the rental is calculated.

Mr. Hickey

I object to an increase of 25 per cent. in respect of telephones this year.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy will realise from my introductory speech on this Estimate that we might lose anything up to £250,000 in the coming financial year if we had not increased the charges. We hope the telephone habit will grow as time goes on. In relation to other services, the telephone service has remained inexpensive. It is the least expensive of all services compared with charges levied 20 years ago. The rates have gone up only 25 per cent. compared with what they were many years ago. In that connection it is well to bear in mind the increases which have taken place, not only in relation to other Government services but in the cost of almost everything in which the consumer is concerned. I think the Deputy will realise that the rates, on the whole, are very reasonable.

Mr. Norton

Is the rental, in fact, not a maintenance and service charge?

Mr. Childers

It is a complicated matter to explain. For the purpose of computation we can only say that the rental covers depreciation, renewal and so forth, and that the call charge relates only to the cost of putting through calls.

Mr. Norton

And the telephone itself is serviced by the Department free of charge?

Mr. Childers

Yes. Deputy Cogan referred to remuneration in regard to the night telephone service. It would be very costly for us to pay the rate that has been suggested in some quarters for night telephone services where a sub-postmaster rarely has to get up in the middle of the night—particularly in places where, perhaps, there is only one call per week. Representations can be made in the usual way by the association concerned and those representations will have a sympathetic hearing. We have what is known as "sleep full service" in relation to telephones where there is an all-night service with only a few calls coming in and where arrangements are made so that the person in charge of the telephones can sleep for the greater part of the night.

Deputy Cogan wants a competition for bright post offices. Obviously this proposal offers great difficulties but certainly I shall consider the suggestion. It would be rather difficult to provide the award and to decide on the type of post office which would be most suitable but I shall have the suggestion considered as I shall have all the suggestions which are made in this debate considered.

Deputy Cogan asked for information about contracts awarded by the Post Office Stores Branch. Invitations to tender are sent to all firms known to be in a particular line of business. Those tenders are sealed and generally speaking the lowest tender is accepted, there being stated regulations in regard to exceptions. The contracts committee, under the administration of the Minister for Finance, supervises the whole administration of Government contracts and in the case of contracts over a certain amount the committee take particular care to examine the tenders before the final award is made. We have few complaints in regard to the allocation of contracts and that is something of which we can all be proud. There has been no kind of scandal or allegation of pressure of any kind in that regard for years and years and years.

Quite evidently, Deputy Desmond has not read or heard my introductory speech on this Estimate. He talked as though no steps were being taken to expedite the provision of rural call offices, whereas, in fact, I have arranged that all post offices will have call offices within a period of about two years. I am doing my best to double the rate of installation in order to encourage the telephone habit in the remotest districts in the country. I have arranged, further, to deal with 1951 rural applications wherever possible in connection with the call office programme. I am insisting that the engineers will be allowed to do the work in the way in which they want to do it. They are going around the country and taking area by area. Some places will have to wait two years to get a call office, but under the previous arrangement they would, in many cases, have had to wait three or four years. A record number of call offices were installed in 1951—even before the change in the system took place.

Mention was made of a Sunday telephone service in areas where a Sunday telephone is particularly desirable. In a seaside resort it is possible for a hotel, by paying an extra charge, to have a service over and beyond the usual hours. In no less than 63 seaside resorts there is a continuous service. Practically every seaside resort of any size, even quite small ones, has a continuous service at present.

Deputy Everett, and other Deputies, seem to refer to the question of stockpiling as though, again, that was a triumph for the Coalition Government. When we were dealing with the question of stockpiling in general we were hoping that there would be emergency stockpiling of an essential character in view of a possible war. Some of the Deputies tried to draw into the argument the whole question of the criticism in regard to the stockpiling which took place during the end of the year 1950 and the year 1951, and which has nothing to do with this Estimate.

I am very glad that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs thought fit to acquire necessary stores against the possibility of a war or an emergency of one kind or another. I should say in that connection that the ceasing of stockpiling will not mean unemployment. Normal orders will be given for stores and so forth. We have not stopped ordering supplies because of having accumulated stocks. We will maintain a certain amount of stockpiling of every commodity used by the Department. Employment will be given in the ordinary way and, although the Post Office is not responsible for providing employment, we do our best to make sure that our orders are routed in the usual way so that the manufacturers who provide these goods will receive orders in a routine manner and will be able to continue employing persons who were ordinarily employed in their production.

References were made by Deputies from the West to island radio sets. We are doing our best to have these delivered. The new type of set will be delivered in December of this year. We are far from being in a sellers' market so far as equipment of all kinds is concerned. We can get all the equipment we need but on account of the Korean war—although deliveries are better— we have to wait a considerable time for certain types of stores, wire, machinery and apparatus used by the Department.

Deputy Brennan referred to the question of guest house priority telephone services. Unless we insisted on guest houses registering with the Irish Tourist Board we might get demands from every kind of applicant. We might get demands from a guest house where there would be only one or two lodgers for a very short time. Such owners might make an excuse to get a telephone. The simplest thing to do in the interests of the nation is to encourage all people whose occupation or way of life is providing people with holiday facilities to register with the Irish Tourist Board. If they do we will try to provide them with a telephone in reasonable priority.

Deputy Brennan also referred to the fact that part-time postmen's wages were reduced as a result of postal revision in rural areas. These revisions of services were introduced to improve the efficiency of Post Office workers. The position of postmen has not been disimproved by this revision. In a very large number of places hours of attendance have been made more suitable for them and wages have been increased. It is inevitable that in a few cases—I must stress only in a few cases —some revision necessitated a reduction of wages but these revisions are carried out with as much regard as possible for the interests of the staff. I have made efforts to avoid any hardship and to reduce it to a minimum. It would be impracticable to avoid hardship altogether. In such cases the men concerned are well aware that their service is temporary. In every case of rural revision I go through with the officers of the Department the position of all men involved and we try to reduce hardship to the absolute minimum. We have had very few complaints in that regard.

While I am dealing with the question of rural revision, I should refer to the observations made by a number of Deputies to what was, in fact, the principal criticism in connection with this Estimate, the attention given to a certain warning which I delivered in regard to how far we could go on with revision. I simply said that we would have to take account of increased costs and that we were examining the position. I did not commit myself either way. In actual fact, there are 4,200 rural posts; 11 have less than a three-day delivery, 110 have a three-day delivery and 415 have a four-day delivery. To put it another way, 87½ per cent. of all rural deliveries are daily. We are at the moment undertaking the examination of certain districts with a view to carrying out revision so that there may be a daily service. In a number of districts this can be effected without any loss to the service. We intend to complete revision in such areas and then study the position further in the other areas.

I can assure Deputies that an 87 per cent. daily delivery service for this country as a whole is very satisfactory having regard to the fact that the Post Office will lose over £400,000. I sympathise with the Deputies who live in areas where there is a fairly high proportion of those restricted deliveries, but I should once again say that I am not despondent. I must have some regard to the finances of the Post Office before I can go on to complete the entire process of revision. We are now dealing with areas where, we think, the work can be done without having any great increase in cost or where we can balance a savings against increased cost.

Deputy Brennan referred to some part-time postmen who are required to give two attendances, and are, therefore, unable to get any alternative work during the day. These cases are not very common. They arise mostly in connection with times of attendance to meet trains. If a part-time postman finds a second attendance prevents him from getting other more remunerative employment we could make it easy for him to be relieved. I myself should like to see the number of the posts, where there are broken periods of employment, as few as possible.

It is our objective, through rural revision and in every other way, to increase the number of full-time posts and the number of fully established postmen. This is slow and difficult work, as Deputy Norton, who had to deal with this matter for so long, is so well aware. Nevertheless, there is progress in that regard. Every time a rural revision takes place, we do our best to increase the number of full-time postmen on the road. Owing to geographical limitations, it is by no means possible to have all postmen full-time. If a post is to be delivered early and collected reasonably early some part-time postmen are unavoidable. We are doing our best in regard to the whole matter.

Mr. Norton

I take it that the Minister's aim will be to continue that policy.

Mr. Childers

Yes. Our aim will be to continue the trend. Deputy Davin spoke about horse transport, and I have a certain amount of sympathy with what he said. All I can say is that every consideration will be given to the desirability, perhaps, of maintaining some horse transport. If it should be abolished it will only be for some adequate reason.

Deputy Dockrell spoke of inviting operators in commercial offices to training classes. We give training and assistance to private branch exchange operators. We will consider the Deputy's suggestion and discuss with him what he has in mind. Deputy Dockrell also wanted to know the reason for delays in cross-Channel calls. He said the delays were longer when putting a call through from here to Great Britain than vice versa. The delay is due to a number of technical reasons, and among these to the fact that the traffic is very often heavier on this side of the Channel. The number of circuits and cables are divided evenly amongst ourselves and the people on the other side of the Channel, but the demand for calls eastwards exceeds the demand for calls westwards. For that reason there is greater delay in obtaining a connection.

Deputy Corish stated that some observations I made in regard to applications by farmers for a telephone service must have been badly reported, because the report conveyed that I thought people in rural areas were having telephones installed on demand. It is true that newspaper reports of that particular speech were most inadequate. What I really said was that long before the last war there should have been some system whereby people in rural districts would be encouraged to have telephones installed. I have in mind something along the lines of the canvass and publicity programme adopted by the Electricity Supply Board. Irish farmers have fewer telephones than farmers in other countries carrying on an agricultural export industry. There is a lag in joining up subscribers, but we are gradually catching up on outstanding applications. We are now examining ways and means of affording, some time from now, a rural telephone service on more advantageous terms. However, everything we do in that regard must receive the consent of the Minister for Finance and will have to be specifically related to the Government's programme of developments in rural districts. As I said already, if a telephone service had been encouraged in rural areas, there would have been a general rural development of this service. It would have been of advantage, because it would have expanded as time went on. Out of 80,000 telephone subscribers, only about 5,000 are wholly resident in rural areas. This is a very small number, indeed. I am well aware of the fact that we have never caught up with all the applications for a telephone service for rural areas. I am referring to a long-term policy, when I refer to that matter.

A number of Deputies referred to telephone services being available at night for emergency purposes. In cases where the Garda stations close down at 9 p.m., we try to make alternative arrangements for emergency calls in the sub-post offices. If the sub-postmaster or the sub-postmistress is not in a position to deal with such calls, we try to make other facilities available. In every possible case, a doctor's house or a nursing home will be joined at night to an exchange away from the exchange that has been closed. Wherever we have to refuse such facilities, it is simply due to technical circumstances over which we have no control.

I think I am right in saying that I managed to put right every single complaint that was put before me last year in regard to emergency night calls due to Garda stations closing at 9 p.m. In view of the fact that a greater number of trunk circuits are being constructed this year in various areas, the position will right itself gradually. I can assure Deputies that any complaints I receive as to the lack of any kind of emergency service in a particular area will be carefully investigated.

There are a number of outlying districts which have no post offices, for instance, peninsulas. I think the local authority in such areas should help by erecting at least a coin-box. We have to stick to the principle that we cannot erect a private call-office in a place where there is is no post office. If we did, we would never complete the programme we have undertaken, and we would be asking a limited staff to work far beyond their capacity. We provide kiosks in an area with a population of over 500, and a number of citizens instal coin-boxes in various areas. We do our utmost to provide emergency night facilities wherever we possibly can.

I have dealt with the question of seaside resorts. We have a continuous telephone service in 60 such places. When an exchange has over 10 subscribers, a service is provided up till 10 o'clock, and when an exchange has over 20 subscribers, the telephone service is continuous. I think this is a fairly satisfactory standard to adopt.

Deputy Dr. Esmonde referred to the insufficiency of staff in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. We do our best to recruit staff, and the number is continuously increasing. However, if the volume of traffic did not increase more rapidly than staff, we would be losing a great deal of money. There is still difficulty in obtaining a sufficiency of electrical engineers, and the bottle neck in regard to high skill staff has not yet been resolved. We are doing all we can in the matter. I am glad to say that there will be more facilities available for the training of electrical engineers in University College, Dublin from now on and also in one of the other universities. Everything is being done to stimulate interest in the Electrical Engineering Degree and in the Associate Degree, but there are still difficulties which, I hope, will be overcome in time. The electrical engineering course takes a year longer than the civil engineering course, and this fact has constrained some people from taking the degree. We have tried to make arrangements similar to those adopted by technical colleges in other countries whereby the fourth year could be done in two years by well recommended students for whom we would provide one half year's work per year in the Department. However, no unanimity could be obtained among students or others.

A number of Deputies referred to the question of what occurs when we make available to a postman a full-time established post in certain districts and, as a result, the downgrading of a number of other unestablished postmen occurs. We do all we can in regard to this matter. The question of the establishment of postmen is one which is under constant examination between ourselves and the Post Office Workers' Union. As far as I know, the system in operation has been accepted by successive Governments. We do all in our power to avoid creating hardships, but, as the establishment of postmen has to be in accordance with Civil Service regulations, it must relate to the Civil Service as a whole. It is necessary to have some form of establishment examination. It is unfortunate that temporary postmen with long service do not either enter the examination for establishment or else do not succeed at the examination. As the officials of the Post Office Workers' Union are aware, every effort is made to avoid hardship in these cases and to avoid unnecessary downgrading of those persons whose position must be altered by the coming into a district of established postmen. We do all we can in the matter, and I do not think anybody can deny that we are sympathetic as far as possible. As I said already, it is up to the Department to increase the number of established postmen and to increase the number of part-time postmen. The process is taking a long time, but it is proceeding gradually.

Deputy M.P. Murphy seemed to think that postmasters are not paid in accordance with the volume of work they do. Their payment is based on a unitary system. Their remuneration is calculated on the basis of the amount of work they perform. The more work they do the more pay they receive. If the number of children's allowances are increased, a sub-postmaster will receive more pay.

Mr. Hickey

They are not sufficiently remunerated.

Mr. Childers

They have their own association and they can make representations to us. Judging by the number of applications we receive for the position of sub-postmaster and sub-postmistress, it must be considered a remunerative post. Some sub-postmasters have shops and make a good supplementary income. If they have not alternative income, the amount of income they receive from the post of sub-postmaster will depend on their own initiative. The more work a sub-postmaster does, the more income he will receive. There is no question that from the number of applicants for sub-postmasterships, the extra shop business done as a result of post offices must be fairly substantial. As I have said, we are always willing to hear representations in regard to that matter.

Mr. Hickey

There is room for improvement. I hope it will be considered.

Mr. Davin

If you like to visit a few places, I will give you a list for my area.

Mr. Childers

I am well aware there will always be complaints and the complaints will be examined sympathetically in the same way as in the case of all other branches of the Post Office. Deputy Collins referred to silence cabinets. If he read the statement in connection with my Estimate he would have seen that we are actively investigating how to produce the type of silence cabinet which will overcome the difficulties mentioned. Deputy Hickey referred to directories. The whole question of the layout and printing of the directory is under examination at the moment.

Deputy Everett, in the course of his speech, made an extraordinary statement in regard to the allocation of a telephone to a particular applicant. At column 204, Volume 133, No. 2, of the Official Debates of 3rd July, 1952, he says: "...the Minister told me it was a private matter. I thought at the time there were some special arrangements concerned." Then he goes on:—

"The Minister states that some official sent out a letter to the effect that the application in question was to be given priority."

Then he goes on to state that he is not satisfied with the position. I find it very hard to understand Deputy Everett. He has asked two questions and he has received two specific replies, namely, that the telephone was promised in December, 1950, in his time of office. He implied by what he said that when it was promised as a priority he wanted to know what kind of priority it was. He said that if it was promised, the officers concerned were acting against his instructions. Deputy Everett had given no particular instructions in regard to such an application. He had maintained the general regulations in applying priorities and maintained the tradition in regard to carrying out telephone installations according to some rule and in some stated order. He had given no special instruction when the applicant was provided service on December 12th, 1950, and was promised that the telephone would be installed within six months. By the time the telephone was installed over three years had elapsed and the telephone applicant was offered service because there had been a very great delay. Deputy Everett never changed the regulation or the tradition in the Post Office that everyone gets a telephone sooner or later. No matter how many miles of wire or how many poles are required, everybody gets a telephone sooner or later and the people whose installations would be most costly wait a very long time.

I often wonder whether it is very much worth while to delay such applications. If they are going to be done in the long run, is it not better to do it in conjunction with the ordinary clearance area and not oblige people to wait for three years? How it works out, as a whole, I am not aware. I can say that one reason for the delay lay in the fact that there was a scarcity of poles at one time which made it essential to delay unduly all applications. In January, 1951, there were about 100 pre-1939 applications in the whole country and the one in question was the oldest in County Wicklow. Therefore, no regulation was broken, and the applicant was provided with service, in fact, at a very late date. As I have indicated, no special instruction was given to the contrary at any time. It did not interfere with the provision of a telephone to any doctor in the county. The only doctor who applied round about that time applied for a transfer of his telephone about one month after this other applicant's telephone was provided.

In regard to the position a little bit later, at June 30th, 1951, there were 2,910 pre-1951 applications, of which 51 were pre-1949 and of which 417 were pre-1950. If I had been asked specifically by this particular applicant to instal a telephone and service had not already been granted by a letter dated December 12th, 1950, my natural instinct would be to inquire how many other people there were in this extraordinary position that had waited two years for a telephone? I would have found out there were quite a number and would have immediately ordered service. I have insisted since then that all these old applications be cleared off as quickly as possible. It is not a good thing to delay provision of a telephone in that way. Having cleared off all but 118 of the pre-1951 applications— and these are going forward too—I have established a new rule that, instead of telling people that they may or may not get a telephone, we will do all the rural call offices in two years and the 1951 applications in most areas. Everybody whose installation involves over two miles of wire who has applied since 1950 is being told he will have to wait until these call offices are completed, until every outstanding 1951 application of less mileage of wire is completed. But at least everybody knows that now the position is quite definite and when we have cleared off these arrears, we will go back to those people again who have very long mileages of wire or whose installation involves difficulties of an engineering character. I think that is the best manner of dealing with the position.

Deputy Everett spoke in the most extraordinary way as though my word was not to be regarded, as though a departmental letter had not existed, as though there was some funny business in connection with it. I suppose it will be sufficient if I tell the House that here is a letter in the file addressed to the applicant, that its number is 5939-50, that it is countersigned by two officials and was issued on the 12th December, 1950. In the course of the letter to the applicant in question it is stated:—

"I am directed by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to inform you that it is hoped that the Department will be in a position to provide service within the next six months. Terms and conditions will be quoted.

The delay in replying to your correspondence is regretted."

In view of the fact that I am, I think, treating Deputy Everett very leniently in this matter and showing very great restraint—particularly when it is borne in mind that from reading his speech one would get the impression that my word could not be believed and that the officers of the Department, whose impartiality and probity in regard to the awarding of telephones in response to applications is known, were conspiring with me in some way to deceive the public—I trust that now that I have given particulars of the letter, that the reputation of the officers of the Department, of the Government as a whole and myself in particular will no longer be aspersed by Deputy Everett. Surely he has full satisfaction in regard to this matter.

I want to make it quite clear again that no instructions were disregarded. There was no instruction not to instal a telephone three years and two months after any person applied, and that is regarded as the extreme limit in connection with telephone applications. I hope, even though I have given an order now that people applying after a certain date whose telephone requires over two miles of wire will have to wait this year, that as long as I have the honour to be Minister, the position will never arise that an applicant will have to wait three years for a telephone, because it seems to me to be extreme and contrary to all reason.

I think I have answered nearly all the questions raised on this Estimate. Deputy McGrath asked me about the work of the special committee for dealing with the appointment of sub-postmasters set up by Deputy Everett when he was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs subsequent to the Baltinglass incident. I should make it clear at the outset that this committee is not a statutory body. Neither is it a commission. Because of that, I still take full responsibility for the appointment of all sub-postmasters. It is quite impossible for me to adopt the same attitude towards this committee that I might adopt, for example, towards the Civil Service Commission in connection with the appointments for which there is a long-established principle and in connection with which there are competitive examinations, and suchlike formalities, the effect of which is almost to remove the Minister from anything more than a general, but nevertheless definite, supervision over the appointments of civil servants to his Department.

This committee has no statutory function of any kind. I have to take full responsibility for its decisions. During the past year I have found that the selections made by that commiteee were excellent. The committee has done excellent work. All the personnel of the committee have had experience in different branches of Post Office activities. Their selections are admirably impartial. From the point of view of political discrimination, there is no foundation for any such suggestion to the contrary. The committee has helped me to raise the standards required of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses. There has been an all-round improvement in standards for other amenities and services throughout the whole country. The committee has assisted me on the important question of what should constitute an efficient sub-post office. It is only to be expected that there should be an improvement in Post Office standards just as there has been an improvement everywhere else, and the existence of the committee assists me in this matter.

However, since I must take responsibility for the work of the committee, I make my own individual decisions in regard to appointments. I do not think Deputies have any reason to complain of anything that has happened since I took office in relation to these appointments. I generally accept the advice of the committee. Sometimes I receive information of a human character in regard to certain applicants, information which is very useful to me and which, I think, would be accepted by the committee in the ordinary way.

Deputy McGrath mentioned, for example, the existence in a particular district of a family who had given outstanding national service during the war of independence. On occasions when the committee put the names of applications for a sub-postmastership in order, there may be, perhaps, two or three applicants of equal merit. Where one applicant is known to be a person who occupied a key position in the national movement I do not see any harm in deciding to give that particular person the position. I do not expect to have to do that very often.

I am aware of the fact that extreme patronage existed in the old days and was carried on into our time I am equally well aware that that patronage is no longer desirable in present circumstances. As I have said, however, it may be necessary occasionally to alter the decision of the committee. I have already altered it on one occasion. In that case I believed there was a potential mistake made, and when that was pointed out to me by the Deputies, representative of all Parties, in the particular district I decreed that another person should be appointed. I think I was quite right in doing so.

There is a certain human element which must be borne in mind in connection with the appointment of sub-postmasters. Deputies can help me a good deal in that matter. Deputy Norton, for example, talked about the frequent patronage in the old days in connection with the appointment of sub-postmasters, and adverted to the fact that that patronage continued to a certain degree right through. It is, of course, almost impossible to abolish patronage overnight. Deputy Norton knows that very well. Opposition Deputies have done very little to acquaint the people in their constituencies of the fact that this committee exists because suggestions have been made to me, when sub-postmasters have been appointed, that an Opposition Deputy had been told by the postmaster that such and such a person would be appointed. The Opposition is carrying on as if the committee set up by my predecessor did not exist at all. I have already indicated that I have found the advice of the committee excellent and not to be lightly disregarded.

Mr. Norton

As the Minister has mentioned my name, may I say that I did not raise the subject at all?

Mr. Childers

No, the Deputy did not. I merely mentioned him for the sake of illustration.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Would the Minister prefer to have Deputies making representations?

Mr. Childers

I would prefer the practice established over the past 12 months to continue.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

The Minister referred to receiving certain information.

Mr. Childers

Whether I welcome it or not, the Deputy has a right in connection with anything to do with postal matters.

Mr. Norton

I understand that if representations were made from political sources the candidate would be automatically disqualified before this committee. Has that condition been abolished? Are representations being received?

Mr. Childers

As the Deputy knows, representations are constantly received, although such representations are supposed to disqualify candidates in all matters appertaining to the Post Office, because of a long standing tradition as a result of the way in which it was run in the old British days. It has never really stopped since. For years and years the Government having administration from 1932 to 1938 was doing its utmost to provide employment for a very large number of people who had previously been victimised for one reason or another. We need not go into that now. The Deputy can accept that that was the case. The first Administration undoubtedly exercised patronage. Again, patronage had to be exercised between 1932 and 1948 in order to balance the position. There were a great many people who had given good service in the I.R.A. for whom something had to be done, and so the patronage continued. Representations were always made.

Mr. Hickey

Tradition dies hard.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy understands the position. I am determined to improve the standards of sub-postmasters. The committee's advice has been excellent over the past 12 months. No one has complained about the appointments made but I claim the right, since I must take the responsibility, of exercising my own full authority, and if the Opposition has any cause to complain those complaints can be made here next year on the Estimate for my Department. If Deputies think I have done anything undesirable they can give full voice to their opinion here, but I think most Deputies will be satisfied in relation to this matter when another year passes.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Would the Minister object if Deputies were to make representations on behalf of certain people in respect of these appointments, if such representations contain some additional information that would help the Minister to make up his mind?

Mr. Childers

If Deputies have information which they think would make a difficult decision easier, naturally it will be welcomed.

Mr. Norton

If Deputies make representations, would those representations disqualify the candidate?

Mr. Childers

Under the circumstances I do not think they would. The committee is not a statutory body. Indeed, I may have to alter the terms of my predecessor's instructions, which were entirely of an ad hoc character. The committee has no statutory function whatever.

Mr. Norton

Therefore, the road is open for making representations again?

Mr. Childers

I have not said that. The Deputy has heard what I have said. I am well satisfied with the work of the committee and the Deputy must not misquote me.

Mr. Norton

Representations will not now disqualify a candidate?

Mr. Childers

They never did. Representations have been made by Opposition Deputies who were well aware of the rules when Deputy Everett was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and they have been making representations ever since.

Mr. Norton

I do not think it is a commendable game.

Mr. Childers

I think that is all I have to say on this Estimate. I have answered every question. I hope we will progress this year in developing the postal, telegraph and telephone services.

Motion to refer back the Estimate for reconsideration, by leave, withdrawn.

Vote put and agreed to.