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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 31 Oct 1952

Vol. 134 No. 6

Private Deputies' Business. - Equal Pay for Equal Work—Motion.

I move:—

That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the Government should take immediate steps to introduce proposals for legislation which will ensure the application to all wageearners of the principle that women shall be paid the same rates of remuneration as men for work of equal value.

This motion deals with the problem which, particularly in recent years, has engaged the attention of many Parliaments and many Governments. It recognises that at present there is a discrimination against women in the matter of remuneration, even remuneration for work which is indistinguishable from that performed by men at a higher rate of remuneration.

The discrimination against women comes down to us from the time when women were regarded as socially, culturally and industrially inferior to men. Because of that fact those who employed women paid them a scale of pay substantially lower than what was paid in the case of men. In fact, any study of the introduction of women to industry in the modern sense will show that the impetus behind the introduction of women was very largely the same as the impetus behind the introduction of child labour, namely, to produce operatives, mechanics or machine minders who could be utilised to work at a rate of wages substantially lower than the rate paid to men.

In other words, women generally were used as cheap labour to be exploited for the benefit of those who employed them.

It seems difficult to-day to imagine that these concepts operated to determine the employment of human beings but it is only necessary to reflect for a few moments to realise the restrictions which were generally imposed upon women and to reflect as well on the inferior position in which women stood in relation to the exercise of such a fundamental duty of the modern citizen as the exercise of the franchise.

It is only 34 years ago since women were permitted to vote in this country. It seems incomprehensible to-day that anybody could be found who would deny women such an elementary right of citizenship. Concurrently with the extension of the franchise to women, notable contributions have been made by them in cultural and professional activities, and indeed in a great many other occupations which, up to relatively recent years, were the monopoly of men.

I suppose old prejudices die hard and it is not easy to overcome even the earlier prejudices in respect of the conditions under which women are employed, but it must be borne in mind that women are gradually shaking off the social, industrial and economic shackles which were the distinguishing mark of their place in society less than 50 years ago. Women are now securing wider outlets for their talents and skill, and are seeking wider opportunities to play the part which they are fitted to play in the modern democratic State.

Side by side with that development in respect of the attitude of the State and employers towards women, there has been a general improvement in the standard of living of workers, expressed not merely in the sense of better rates of pay but in improved conditions of employment and a higher standard of social legislation, all of which have done much to provide the worker with a better position in industry and a better position as a citizen in the economic sense. One of the features of that improving code of legislation and of that improvement in the conditions of employment has been a widespread recognition, so far as men are concerned, and also so far as women are concerned, but each being treated separately, of the principle that there ought to be a rate of pay appropriate to a particular job.

At one time, before national wage agreements operated, it was possible to find workers employed on precisely the same class of work being paid varying rates of pay, but, with the introduction of national agreements in the matter of fixing remuneration, there is now, although perhaps on a sex basis, a recognition of the general principle that workers are entitled to be paid what is accepted as the fixed rate for the particular job. That principle, however, does not apply to women vis-a-vis men in determining the standard of remuneration that should be paid for work which is performed equally by men and women. To-day, women still suffer from the handicap that they are women and employers, the State and local authorities still consider it their privilege to pay women substantially less than is paid to men for work of equal value.

I am not concerned in discussing this motion with the rather barren argument that women's place is in the home. This motion is concerned with the physical fact that women work, that they have to work for a living for themselves and to maintain others dependent on them. The motion expresses the view that women should be paid adequately for their work; in other words, they should be paid the same rate of remuneration as men for doing work of precisely the same value. I think it is as unreasonable to deny women the same rate of remuneration for doing work of equal value with men as it would be to suggest that they ought not to-day to exercise the franchise in the same way as men exercise that elementary right of citizenship.

This motion is not a motion which asks that men and women should be paid equally irrespective of the kind of work they do. It simply asks that where a man and a woman do precisely the same class of work, then the woman should be paid the same as the man. In other words, the male rate of remuneration ought to apply to a woman, and she ought not to be paid a lesser rate for doing exactly the same work as a man does. Many countries have already made provision for equal pay for equal work in their Constitutions; others have made provision for a recognition and application of the principle in their legislation; and still others have made provision for it in the labour codes and practices which operate in the countries concerned.

This problem of equal pay for equal work was first made the subject of discussion at the International Labour Office Conference in San Francisco in 1948 and a resolution was then passed asking the International Labour Office to study the problem of equal pay for equal work. That problem was studied in great detail by a committee then appointed and, as a result of the study of the problem by the International Labour Office, the whole question of equal pay as between men and women for work of equal value came up for consideration at the International Labour Office Conference in 1950. It was then decided that the question should be placed on the agenda for the 1951 conference, with a view to the adoption of either a recommendation or a convention providing for the application of the principle of equal pay for equal work.

The general question was discussed at last year's conference, and, by a majority of 109 votes to 38, the conference adopted a convention favouring the application of the principle of equal pay for equal work. The conference felt it was desirable to supplement the convention by a recommendation to apply to those countries which were not yet ready to go ahead with the application of the principle.

It is interesting to refer to the convention which was adopted by the International Labour Office in 1951 by such a substantial majority. Article 1 provides:—

"For the purposes of this convention, the term ‘equal remuneration for men and women workers for work of equal value' refers to rates of remuneration established without discrimination based on sex."

Article 2 provides:—

"Each member shall, by means appropriate to the methods in operation for determining rates of remuneration, promote, and, in so far as it is consistent with such methods, ensure the application to all workers of the principle of equal remuneration for men and women workers for work of equal value. This principle may be applied by means of national laws or regulations, legally established or recognised machinery for wage determination, collective agreements between employers and workers, or a combination of these various means."

Later in Article 4, the convention provides:—

"Each member shall co-operate as appropriate with the employers' and workers' organisations concerned for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of this convention."

The recommendation passed at the International Labour Office Conference was:—

"Each member should, subject to the provisions of Article 2 of the convention, apply the following provision and report to the International Labour Office as requested by the governing body concerning the measures taken to give effect thereto: Appropriate action should be taken, after consultation with the workers' organisations concerned or, where such organisations do not exist with the workers concerned, to ensure the application of the principle of equal remuneration for men and women workers for work of equal value to all employees of central Government Departments or agencies; and to encourage the application of the principle to employees of State, or provincial or Local Government Departments or agencies, where these have jurisdiction over rates of remuneration."

Finally, the convention provided:—

"Every effort should be made to promote public understanding of the grounds on which it is considered that the principle of equal remuneration for men and women workers for work of equal value should be implemented."

I think it is clear from that, having regard to the substantial majority by which the convention and recommendations were passed, that the enlightened countries of the world now accept the principle that men and women should be remunerated equally for work of equal value. The speeches made at the International Labour Office last year on the application of the principle are well worth reading as showing the enlightened outlook of many countries towards this problem I do not want to detain the House by quoting long extracts from the various speeches made by delegates from the different countries represented at last year's International Labour Office Conference but a few quotations would not be inappropriate to a discussion on this motion.

Read the speech by the Irish Government representative.

Why? Were you going to read that?

Would the Deputy deal with the significance of the fact that there was not any?

Any what?

Speech by an Irish Government delegate.

What has that got to do with this motion? What I am trying to put to the House is that in the matter of this legislation we are much behind other countries and ought to step in line with other countries that have approached the problem on a broad, intelligent basis. The French Government adviser, speaking at the International Labour Office Conference last year, said:—

"Ever since the end of the 1914 war there has been equal pay between the two sexes in Government Departments in France. I am surprised that this is not the case in certain countries and I am at a loss to find the reasons for it. In the teaching profession, in post offices, in Government Departments, are not the services performed by women equal to those of men? Does not the difference in devotion to duty, professional conscience, faith in their vocation always favour women?"

The delegate from Guatemala said:—

"The principle of equal pay is one that has been incorporated into the Constitutions of the Latin-American countries and has been developed in the labour codes of those countries."

The delegate from the Argentine said:—

"In my country, men and women enjoy equal social and civil rights. In the majority of industries and commercial undertakings women receive the same wages as men. We aspire to total equality."

The Canadian Government's adviser said:—

"The Government of Canada believes in the principle of establishing a rate of pay for a job on the basis of the work to be performed without discrimination as to the sex of the worker and applies this principle fully to its own employees."

The Indian delegate said:—

"The Indian Government have accorded equal pay to all women workers from a Cabinet Minister down to the humble sweeper woman. The pay of all civil servants has been equalised in recent years without any adverse effect on the economy of the country."

If the delegates whom the Minister picked to send to Geneva were silent, it is a matter of the Minister's own choice and a matter for his own conscience.

It is a question of who picked the delegates.

The Minister might make an inquiry. I tried to get enlightenment, but they were your nominees, so you find out what happened when they went to Geneva. Do not ask me for an explanation why they did not talk when they went to Geneva.

Why those you picked did not talk?

You look after your own chickens.

At that particular conference the delegates were picked by the Deputy.

The 1951 Conference? The 1951 Conference sat while the Minister's Party were in power.

It was in session while the change of Government was taking place.

I do not care who the delegates were. If any delegate goes out from this country and matters affecting the people of this country are on the agenda, it is a matter of ordinary intelligence and of service to the country that sent him for the delegate to express an opinion on the subject. I do not care who the delegate was, who sent him or who picked him.

Or what instructions he got.

I have yet to know that the delegate got instructions to remain mute at the International Labour Office Conference. You could put on the same act by staying at home here. However, we have not to discuss what the Irish delegate said, did not say or forgot to say at this international conference last year but what delegates did say on the subject. We have, however, another test which probably transcends all controversy which might range around what was said or was not said or why it was said. Speaking a few years ago to an audience of women workers His Holiness the Pope said:—

"The Church has always held that women should receive the same pay as men for equal work and output. To exploit female labour as cheaper would injure not only the woman, but also the working man, who would thus risk being put out of work. Both men and women should make use of their political rights in the service of justice."

As far as this House is concerned that should carry more weight than what was said or was left unsaid at Geneva last year. Having regard to our concepts of Christianity, to that declaration by His Holiness the Pope and the widespread recognition of the principle of equal pay in the Constitution, laws and labour practices of other countries, we here should apply that principle. Even in Britain it has been accepted by the Government. The Government there have adopted the attitude that at the moment for financial reasons and because of inflationary fears they cannot give effect to the principle but it is clear enough from what was said even recently by the British Chancellor of the Exchequer that Britain is not far away from accepting the principle of equal pay for equal work. The moment Britain accepts it, it will operate in the six north-eastern counties of Ireland and it is quite clear that if it does there will be a general recognition of the fact that there is a more liberal attitude there towards women in that field than there is at home where the principle is not yet recognised or accepted. For these considerations I ask the House to pass this motion to bring pressure to bear on the Government to have the matter examined with a view to the introduction of the necessary legislation.

I formally second the motion.

I am very interested in the fact that one member of the former Coalition Government has made some progress in making up his mind on this issue. It is true, as Deputy Norton said, that this matter has been under consideration by the International Labour Organisation since the 1950 Conference. It is the practice of the International Labour Organisation, when a new convention dealing with a matter of this kind is under consideration, to request the member Governments to submit their views in advance and to indicate not merely the practice in their own countries but what line of action their delegation is likely to take on the proposal. That request for information as to the attitude of the Government here in 1950 was received and, as a private Deputy, I tried on more than one occasion in that year to find out by way of parliamentary question what the attitude of the then Government was and what reply they were going to send to the International Labour Organisation but I did not succeed. Finally, the delegation chosen by the Coalition Government went to the 1951 Conference without instructions, unable to take any part in the discussion, and obliged to abstain from voting when the convention was put to the conference.

To which portion of the delegation does the Minister refer?

The Government delegation. The delegation was tripartite. It consisted of the Government delegation, employers' delegates and workers' delegates. The Government delegates went without instructions and, being without them, they were unable to vote when the convention was put to the conference.

I welcome this evidence that some progress has been made by some member of that Government to reach a conclusion on this issue. Deputy Norton's speech avoided, however, every important question arising on his motion. None of us challenges the soundness of the principle that women should be given equal pay for work of equal quality and quantity. For a long time, however, various international organisations and social bodies have discussed amongst themselves how that principle was to be interpreted in the everyday life of business. The International Labour Conference spent a large amount of time before drafting its convention, discussing the interpretation of the principle and deciding how the principle was to be applied when interpreted.

I assume Deputy Norton is aware of the fact that the main issue raised by his motion is the proposal that this principle of equal pay should be applied here by legislation. May I say that I should be very much surprised to discover that trade union opinion here generally favours State interference in wage determination? I think, in view of Deputy Norton's special position, that before the Dáil is asked to vote on this motion we should know whether he has sounded trade union opinion in the matter and is authorised by any responsible trade union body to say that the idea of State interference in wage determination, through legislation, or through powers conferred by legislation, is approved.

I presume the Minister has noted that the motion is seconded by Deputy Larkin who is president of the Irish Trade Union Congress.

I should be interested to learn from Deputy Larkin if the Irish Trade Union Congress favours the principle of State interference in wage determination. It would be a very remarkable change.

They accept the principle of equal pay for equal work. Does the Minister want documentary evidence of it?

So do I accept the principle. However, I shall resist here, at any rate until the attitude of the trade union movement is known, the proposal that that principle should be applied by legislation. If I understand the idea behind the suggestion that this matter should be dealt with by legislation, then I am correct in interpreting it as meaning that power should be taken away from the trade unions in an important matter of wage determination and that the State should have functions in regulating and controlling the result of wage negotiations between trade unions and employers.

I think, also, we should have some explanation of the fact that the trade unions, who have power to support the principle of equal pay for women for equal work, have never sought to do so. The obvious deduction from that fact is that there are such serious practical difficulties in the application of the principle in particular cases that they have avoided attempting it.

What case has the Minister in mind, for example?

I will give the Deputy, if he likes, details of recent agreements on wage negotiations in which the idea of differential rates for men and women was accepted by the trade union concerned. The International Labour Convention to which Deputy Norton referred is not yet in force. The Deputy should read that convention with some care because what the International Labour Organisation recommended was that this principle of equal pay for equal work for men and women should be applied by the means appropriate to the methods in operation for determining rates of remuneration and consistent with such methods. The International Labour Organisation Conference and the International Labour Organisation Committee which prepared the convention considered the desirability of applying the principle of equal pay for equal work by legislation and rejected it. There, were the matter was fully discussed by the representatives of a large number of countries, with Governments, employers and workers separately represented, the idea of using legislation to apply the principle was rejected by a substantial majority. Yet Deputy Norton and Deputy Larkin come here and ask that this Government should seek to do what the International Labour Organisation was against, namely, apply the principle by legislation. The method in operation for determining rates of remuneration in this country is negotiation between representative organisations of workers and employers. If the principle of equal pay for equal work between men and women is to be applied here, if we are to apply it in accordance with the International Labour Organisation Convention, then we will do so by the method in operation for determining rates of remuneration, which, in this country, is free negotiation without Government interference.

This motion therefore which Deputy Norton has moved is asking not merely that the principle of equal remuneration for men and women should be applied to this country, but that simultaneously there should be a fundamental change in the whole method by which rates of remuneration are determined.

I personally would be opposed to State interference in wage negotiations. I would not even consider the idea of legislating to give the State power to intervene in wage negotiations, unless it was clear that all the trade unions desired it and the information available to me suggests that that they not desire it. Now it is comparatively easy to state the principle. The words quoted by Deputy Norton from the Holy Father are good enough for me—"equal pay for work of equal quality and quantity." That is the phrase normally used. What it means in practice has been the subject of continuous debate.

May I express my outlook in these matters? Because the man is the natural head of the family, a family wage is due to men only and it is due to all men, whether they be married or not, because all men are actual or potential husbands or fathers, but when men and women are engaged upon industrial work, and give an equal return, this family wage should be paid both to men and women. Otherwise, as Deputy Norton said, women would tend to undercut men in employment and it would be better to employ women than employ men. This matter, as I said, has been under consideration in many quarters for a long time. After the First World War, the Catholic Hierarchy of the United States of America published, in 1919, a plan for social reconstruction and they dealt with this question of the remuneration of men and women engaged upon the same type of work. As far back as then, they defined the principle that should operate in the words which I have quoted. They said that those women who are engaged on the same task as men should receive equal pay for equal amounts and quality of work.

It is clear, therefore, that the principle hinges on the insistence that, when equal pay is given, women must give in return work of the same quality as men. As I said, the main difficulty in applying that principle is in determining what is equal work. Everybody, not excluding the International Labour Organisation, who came to deal with this matter either evaded that question or hid their statements in clouds of vagueness. If we were to attempt to define that principle in law, the law would certainly be vague also and it would present many difficulties in its interpretation and application.

The International Labour Organisation considered this matter and the committee which drafted the convention debated it for a long time but the result of their efforts did not relieve their convention from the charge of vagueness either. In the discussions in the committee, in fact the term was not defined at all, but an effort was made to bring out the idea which Deputy Norton expressed here, that the wage rate should be based upon the job content without regard to sex. If this is to be the principle, it will be clearly recognised that, even though wage rates for men and women are in line, they may, and probably will in many cases, result in unequal earnings. It is necessary to emphasise that when there is talk of equal pay for equal work—work equal to a man's in quality and quantity—it does not necessarily mean, and it is not intended to mean, that women engaged in such work will take home at the end of each week the same amount of pay as the men.

The International Labour Organisation failed to define, in any clear way, what work of equal value was, or how work of equal value was to be determined. In fact, it made an assessment of that principle almost impossible by the terms it used. This is a quotation from the recommendation:—

"Differential rates between workers which correspond, without regard to sex, to differences, as determined by such objective appraisal, in the work to be performed, shall not be considered as being contrary to the principle of equal remuneration for men and women workers for work of equal value."

It seems to me that, in inserting that provision in the recommendation, they made it almost impossible to assess the principle or to ensure its application in any particular case.

To sum up, therefore, on the theoretical side of this question, I agree that the principle of equal remuneration for men and women for the same amount of work of equal quality is quite sound. It is in accordance with the authorities to whom we are to look for guidance in these matters but it is particularly difficult in its practical application. Nobody has yet attempted successfully to solve the problem of defining, in simple terms, how the quality and value of the work are to be settled. I agree that the principle in its simplest form does not operate here. The method of determining wage rates in operation here, that is, the settlement of wages by means of free negotiation between organisations of workers and employers, has not produced it. In regard to industrial work, I think it is true to say that men and women are not generally employed in identical or readily comparable jobs. In the distributive trades, it is quite correct that both men and women are employed and, so far as the average citizen can see, apparently do comparable work but, nevertheless, it is common knowledge that in these trades women are paid less than men. There must, therefore, be some difference between the quality of the work done by men and by women, because otherwise it is impossible to see why employers would employ men at the higher rates if women could do work of equal quality.

In the Civil Service, the practice is that single men and women are paid the same. Married men are paid higher than either of them. The same system operates in our schools, both national schools and secondary schools, and the system is now being applied to the vocational schools. It does not apply, and this, I think, is the only substantial departure from the principle in the public service, to the professional grades.

In commercial offices, I think it is true to say that the work done by men and women is not usually comparable, but whether or not that is so, it must be recorded that the regulations made by the joint labour committees which define minimum rates for work of that kind, authorise differences in pay between men and women. Deputy Larkin, in seconding the motion, implied that the Trade Union Congress of which he is president, accepts the principle. It has not been clear up to the present that any authoritative trade union organisation has accepted the principle. In the course of the present year, a substantial number of new trade agreements have been negotiated where this matter was relevant. These agreements provide for different rates of pay for men and women on comparable work.

Could the Minister give an example?

Most of the distribution trades. I think every one of the distribution trades. As I have pointed out, it is only in the distribution trade that this problem appears to be definite. It is only there, so far as an outsider can see, that men and women are engaged on comparable work and can be alternated between one another without any substantial reduction in the service provided. That cannot be the explanation because there must be some reason why men continue to be employed in these trades at higher rates of pay if, in fact, the work done by women is comparable with theirs. I do not know whether the decision of these trade union executives to negotiate and sanction agreements providing for differential rates of pay was due to their belief that differential rates are justifiable, or that they recognised that there was such a substantial difference in the quality and quantity of work performed by men and women that the agreements necessarily had to allow for differential remuneration.

In the distribution trades, where there appears to be, as I have said, comparable work done by men and women, we should at least be sure of what the effect of the application of the principle may be before we apply it. If we, in the light of prevailing circumstances where differential rates of pay operate but where, nevertheless, men are employed at the higher rate, even though their work appears to be comparable with that of women, raise the women's rate to the male rate, is it going to mean the continuation of women in these trades at all, or if the same rates have to be paid to men and women, will any employment be available for women? I am quite satisfied that when the unions catering for these trades came to negotiate their new agreements they were compelled to give consideration to that question, and that in sanctioning the differential rates they did so in the belief that it was in the interests of their women members.

It is true, as Deputy Norton has said, that attempts have been made in other countries to apply this principle—in the United States and in most of the Scandinavian countries—but it must be recognised that the application of that principle was associated with the desire to retain married women in employment. Here the retention of married women in employment is not merely contrary to our way of life but there is no economic need for it. Deputy Norton talked about the barren argument that women's place is in the home. I do not think that anyone ever made that argument, but it has been contended that the married woman's place, the mother of a family, is in the home. Personally, I am a strong advocate of that argument, while contending also that the head of the family, the man, should receive remuneration adequate to enable him to maintain his home in reasonable comfort without his wife having to go out to work.

I suggest to Deputy Norton and Deputy Larkin that they should withdraw this motion until they have made up their minds as to whether, in fact, they want this principle applied by legislation or not. I do not think that they have appreciated the significance of the proposal that the State should for the first time appear to intervene in wage negotiations and control the outcome of them. I doubt very much if the trade union movement desires that. While we accept this principle, we accept it in accordance with the recommendation of the International Labour Organisation that it should be applied by the means normally in use for the determination of rates of remuneration, and the method normally in use here is free negotiation. If the principle is to be applied it is through that method it should be applied, and if that is agreed then the Deputies' advocacy of the principle should be directed to the trade union congresses rather than to the Dáil.

The discussions here this morning would suggest that, even if a motion of this kind were to be passed, the circumstances are such that we are not quite clear into what situation it would lead us. There are so many factors, both from the outside and the inside, affecting our economic and employment situation that I feel a mere Act of Parliament, even if that Act were enacted to ensure the application of equal pay for men and women, might have a very disrupting effect. It would be hard to know what exactly the effect of it would be, particularly at a time when there are so many difficulties with regard to wages and employment. I do not think that anything should be brought to bear on it by way of an Act of Parliament or by an administrative act from the top.

While matters of this kind can be assisted and directed by policy as it emanates from Parliament, they must, in fact, develop a certain amount of organic tendency on their own. The points that have been raised on both sides indicate, first of all, that this is not the arena in which a decision can be taken, and secondly, that the information which this House would want to have put before it, if called upon to give such a decision, would have to be assembled and fully reviewed.

We may have information as to what is happening in theory. We may even have information as to what is happening, in fact, in the United States of America, in France or in the Argentine, but when we come to deal with a situation like this what we are primarily concerned with is our own situation and what the natural tendencies are in the circumstances of our own situation. It would be desirable that we should have all the information before us. In the present distress and faced with the problems that people in political life and economic life to-day have to bear, I would hesitate to suggest that there should be set up now a body that would investigate this problem. There are many more urgent and more vital problems affecting the continued employment of both men and women requiring all the energies of the political and administrative side.

I think the Minister's suggestion is a wise one. He told Deputy Norton that when the various important groups involved were prepared to come together with the representatives of the various Parties in the House machinery would then be set up to enable the necessary exchange of information so that the matter might ultimately come before us in a more informed light and be considered here, and any decision the House thought it desirable to take upon it might be taken here.

In the early days of the Civil Service unmarried men and women were put on the same basis. I think it was only comparatively recently that that principle was extended to the teaching profession. That is one aspect of equal pay for men and women that we have here. It is so well-established it must be regarded as significant. If in the early days there had been heavy provision for family allowances, the decision might have been equal pay for men and women without reference to the position of married men at all.

We must take the facts as they are. We have not got all the information. If we had the information and had to decide this matter to-day it would be very difficult in our present state of employment and in our present financial situation to decide that there should be equal pay to-morrow for men and women in industry here. What the effect of that decision would be on employment in present day circumstances I do not know.

That is an important matter upon which the House should have all the information available in order to systematically approach and consider it. Whether or not we would be usefully spending our time in discussing the principle before we are quite clear as to the economic situation of the country I do not know. While it is, perhaps, useful to discuss the matter as it has been discussed here this morning, I would prefer to wait until such time as the various important bodies have considered it and until such time as the Minister will co-operate in seeing that the proper machinery is set up for a full consideration of the principle involved to enable all the facts to be discovered and recommendations made. In those circumstances, the House could then debate the whole subject and take a decision on it.

I am in complete agreement with the Minister that it would be a very drastic step to enforce by legislation this principle of equal pay for equal work in industry, commerce, agriculture and so on. That would mean the over-riding of private agreements entered into between employers and employees and private agreements entered into with the trade unions.

It is significant that everybody accepts the principle of equal pay for equal work. I think it is no harm there is general agreement on that. It is in the implementing of that principle that difficulty arises.

Reference has been made to the fact that in the Civil Service there is equal pay as between single men and women. That does not mean, however, that the same system could be readily applied to industry generally. We all know that conditions of employment in the Civil Service are governed by long-established practice. That is something it might not be possible to introduce into ordinary industry.

In the Civil Service we have not actually adopted the principle of equal pay for equal work as between men and women, because married men employed in the Civil Service are paid more than single men. That is a very marked distinction. Therefore, if one were to apply the conditions that prevail in the Civil Service to employment generally one would not be applying equal pay for equal work. One would only be applying equal pay as between single men and women with additional remuneration for married men.

The matter is extremely complicated and I do not think it would be possible for any Act of this House to implement the principle involved in this motion. All the House can do is make a recommendation. There is hardly any need for that when one finds that every section apparently accepts the general principle. The real difficulty arises in defining what exactly is equal work and where exactly does the equality lie. It may be easy to define it where work is done by piece rate. I do not think that is seriously considered. It is possible to apply it in the Civil Service because there people are classified in various grades. In ordinary industry I think it would be very, very hard to define what constitutes equal work and equality of work. It is very hard to draw a nice distinction as to whether a man or a woman is preferable in a certain occupation or whether certain businesses should have a certain proportion of men and a certain proportion of women.

In the medical profession, for example, one would find great difficulty in defining the exact relations of equality of work. In matters of this kind, you have first preference for men as against women. Some patients prefer male doctors to women doctors. In nursing probably the preference would be in favour of women. Even though the work in some cases would be scientific and would appear to be equal, it may not be regarded as equal by those whom it affects. That factor has always to be taken into consideration. It applies also in the distribution of goods. There are some lines of business in which customers prefer to deal with men and others in which they prefer to deal with women. In cases of that kind it is difficult to define where equality lies.

We know that a Royal Commission was set up in Great Britain in 1944 or 1945 to examine this whole question and I think their recommendations were far from conclusive. There was a majority report and a minority report and, in addition to that, the majority report was not very conclusive. It was found that the members of the commission had great difficulty in deciding in regard particularly to equality of work. There is no doubt that in a considerable number of occupations women by their nature are superior to men. Even in manufacturing industries where skill with the hands is required women are very frequently far superior to men. I suppose the same is true with regard to nursing and it is probably true of a number of other occupations.

I would be inclined to agree with Deputy Mulcahy that this is hardly an opportune time either to introduce legislation as proposed in this motion or even to go so far as to institute an investigation into this whole matter. There are other problems which are far more urgent, particularly at the present time when opportunities of making a decent living as between men and women are not so very much to the disadvantage of women. At present we have advertisements appearing every day for women workers in factories and institutions in Great Britain, and the demand for female labour must of necessity enhance the remuneration to a considerable extent. It certainly has had that effect. This is one of the matters in which the House would be well advised to let well enough alone.

Listening to the speakers on this motion, I have been wondering how far we can rely on the conclusions of the people who studied this matter in the countries mentioned. It is known to everybody that these countries are not passing through normal times. Even the United States of America and Great Britain, and you might say practically all the other countries in the world, have their production geared to a war economy. In circumstances like that it is easy for people to prescribe inducements to get women into production in their war industries. That has been happening in Great Britain and America and other countries, such as the U.S.S.R.

Before we can seriously consider the conclusions they have reached on this question these countries would want to be going ahead in a normal way for a considerable period without any threat of war. If there were peace in the world for five or ten years these countries would be in a far better position to reach a conclusion on the matter and we would be in a far better position to consider the conclusions reached by them. In Great Britain and the United States for some years there have been all kinds of inducements held out to married women to come into industry. That also leads to other developments which we have not experienced here, such as baby-sitters' unions and other undesirable developments which would not suit the community we have here.

I have always felt that there are certain jobs that women can do better than men. It is equally true to say that there are certain jobs which will always be done better by men than by women. As the Tánaiste said, there must be some reason why there has been this differential all through the years as between the sexes. If, for instance, you prescribed by law in the morning equal pay for both sexes, I think Deputy Norton and his colleagues would be the first people to be in trouble, because it would have the effect in some particular spheres of activity of men replacing women because possibly they would be easier to control, and that again would create a further problem.

We possibly are not yet in a position to come down firmly on one side or the other of this fence. Women just as well as men in different spheres of activity will find their own level. In every sphere of activity individuals, irrespective of sex, do find their own level. In many spheres of activity women are superior to men and in some instances are getting better remuneration for their services, while in other spheres you have men leading. But, individually, they will find their own economic level and they will do that irrespective of how we try to put through what I call theoretical legislation in this House. That will continue for all time.

In view of the abnormal conditions which have existed for some time in international affairs, I think that this is not the time to experiment in this matter. I think we cannot well rely on the conclusions come to by some of these organisations in outside countries, because many of those can, undoubtedly, be influenced by political considerations, or possibly influenced by the fact that they want more labour, particularly from married women, and I prefer to see this matter studied in an impartial way. I do not think that can be done until we have a more peaceful world than exists at the present time.

The Minister apparently has deliberately, in his defence against this motion, created a fog of misunderstanding as to the manner in which a convention of this kind should be operated, but the more fog he created the more he confessed inferentially that we here in this country are not able to manage our legislative or economic affairs. The principle of equal pay for work of equal value has been enshrined in their Constitution by other countries who have no more legislative or constitutional ingenuity than we have. It has been embodied in their laws and their trade union organisation by other countries whose standard of living has not fallen below ours; in fact, a good many nations are above ours. In labour codes and labour practice it has been possible to introduce it with governmental assistance so that all those countries adopted the principle of equal pay for work of equal value in their Constitution, in their legislation, or in their practice, but apparently we cannot do it. Mind you, they have done this before the convention was adopted by the International Labour Office last year.

Let me deal with a few points made by the Minister. He quoted paragraph (2) of Article 3 of the convention and completely misinterpreted the paragraph. If the Minister looks at the paragraph again on rates of pay he will see it has nothing whatever to do with the difference between men and women. What is does say is if there are differential rates of pay between workers, based on differences in the work to be performed, that is not to be regarded as in conflict with the principle of equal remuneration for men and women. But it has nothing to do with the application of particular rates of pay for men and women. It is referring to groups of workers without regard to sex. The Minister tries to see the convention in its foggiest possible light. The International Labour Office has some skill in drafting conventions and making them——

As vague as possible.

Sometimes it is necessary to have a certain vagueness in a matter of this kind. The International Labour Office Convention and Recommendation laid down certain principles and marked a pathway which ought to be followed by those who want to adopt the recommendation of the convention. Of course, if you do not want to do that the best thing you can do is to find all the faults you can with both the convention and the recommendation and that is the typical trick. If you do not want to do the thing, say it is impossible; it cannot be implemented.

The convention does not require us to attempt to do it by legislation.

Of course it does not. You can do it if the International Labour Office never met and was never born. As a matter of fact, before they actually functioned, I think the French Government put it into the French legislation. The International Labour Office did not function properly until 1920 or 1921.

The committee rejected the proposal that it should be implemented by legislation.

It did no such thing. Where did the Minister get his copy of the convention? Let us read some portions of this to see where that is. I do not want to tire the House by reading the entire convention or the recommendation. The Minister apparently dislikes both. The recommendation states:—

"Appropriate action should be taken, after consultation with the workers' organisations concerned or, where such organisations do not exist, with the workers concerned

(a) to ensure the application of the principle of equal remuneration for men and women workers for work of equal value to all employees of central Government Departments or agencies; and

(b) to encourage the application of the principle to employees of State, provincial or Local Government Departments or agencies, where these have jurisdiction over rates of remuneration."

The Government has jurisdiction over rates of remuneration in respect of its own employees and if the Minister is sincere when he says he is in favour of the principle, then the simple test is that he should subject himself to this. If the Minister is in favour of the principle of equal pay for work of equal value, will he undertake on behalf of the Government, that that principle will be applied in respect of those persons who are employed by the State, the central authority? There is a simple test: if the Government will do that in respect of its own employees in the State service and in the services of semi-public and public authorities which have been created by the central Government then an example will be set.

It applies to 99 per cent. of them.

In the public service.

Where did you get these figures?

In or around 99 per cent.

In the State service?

Yes, equal pay for work of equal value.

It does not indeed. The Minister ought to have his brief brought up-to-date. The position of the civil servants is that married officers are paid one scale of pay; single men and women get an inferior rate of pay.

Single men and women get the same rate of pay.

Is there any limit to the Minister's ingenuity in the matter of misrepresentation? Take the case of a clerical officer, for example. If he is married he has a basic pay of £200 per annum, plus allowances. If he is single he gets a basic pay of £150 and a woman gets £150. The single man and the single woman do not get the same rate of pay as the married officer.

No, but they get the same rate of pay as each other.

What does that prove? This motion is asking that they should be paid the same rate of pay for work of equal value.

You are against married allowances?

No. I am not against the married allowance but I am against single men and women being made pay for the married allowance by reducing their rate of pay to enable it to be given.

That is one way of putting it. You could say the married man gets a higher allowance.

It is a highly disreputable procedure for remunerating people. The State says to the married man: "You will get no increase in pay but the single man and the single woman will be cut down in pay and what we receive for bringing them down in pay we will give to the married man in the form of allowances for the children which he creates."

This must be a Cumann na nGaedheal admission.

They made a pretty good convert in you, for that process is going on for a while. You know that. There is a simple test for the Minister. If he approves the principle of equal pay for work of equal value, then the Government ought to accept the principle and apply it in respect of their own employees. Let us take another portion of the recommendation. The recommendation says, in paragraph 2:—

"Appropriate action should be taken after consultation with the employers' and workers' organisations concerned, to ensure as rapidly as practicable the application of the principle of equal remuneration for men and women workers for work of equal value in all occupations other than those mentioned in paragraph 1 in which rates of remuneration are subject to statutory regulation or public control, particularly as regards—

(a) the establishment of minimum or other wage rates in industries and services where such rates are determined under public authority."

Clearly there is an obligation imposed on the State in this recommendation to take action in the matter, but the Minister's attitude is that he is going to do nothing about the question. He will not even accept the obligation of promoting the acceptance of the principle of equal pay for work of equal value as between workers on the one hand and employers on the other hand.

I could have understood the Minister's line to-day if he said: "We are not prepared to go as far as the legislative stage but we are prepared to accept it in principle and apply it in respect to our own employees and, in respect of those not in our employment, we are prepared to consult the trade union movement on the one hand, the employers' organisations on the other hand, and put it to them that we are in favour of the principle of equal pay for equal work." I could have understood that attitude by the Minister and, if the Minister would say, even now, that the Government would do that, I would be prepared to withdraw the motion but I suspect from the Minister's line of defence to-day that he is merely picking holes in the convention and in the recommendation with a view to endeavouring to show that it is impracticable.

What I am opposed to is taking over the functions of the trade unions.

There is no question of taking over the functions of the trade unions.

That is what the reference to legislation means.

This House has passed legislation from time to time which has done a whole variety of things which might, on the same plea, be regarded as appropriate to trade unions. For instance, we prevent night work in bakeries. We do that because of the fact that the International Labour Office passed a convention.

Because the Bakers' Union asked us.

You did it then, yes. The International Labour Office passed a convention. We implemented that by legislation. That was not interfering with trade union negotiations or collective bargaining. Similarly, in the Conditions of Employment Act, we have done many things which, if we adopted the principle of keeping the ring, as a Parliament, should be left to the free play of collective bargaining between employers and workers. We established certain minimum rates under the Conditions of Employment Act. I think it was desirable. I think it would help to set a higher standard, level things up and make the backward employer come up to a tolerably decent level and would help to iron out over the whole State certain minimum conditions for all classes of workers. I think that is all desirable and necessary in the modern State where you cannot leave things to the absolute free play of economic forces.

Similarly, I see nothing wrong in the principle of the State saying: "Now there shall be paid equal pay for work of equal value as a matter of national principle. The employers are to work it out among themselves." It has to be determined by somebody then what is work of equal value. You may get a situation, as you would in the printing industry where there are many women employees and men employees. The question is, is the woman doing work of equal value to the man? Is she doing the same class of work? An examination would show that she was not. The principle is quite easily determined. Take a laundry, where there are a whole lot of women. The men do not do the same work as the women. There it is easy to establish that it is not work of equal value. But, you may go into a school——

Even in a shop there is some difference. It is not quite as easy as all that. Men do certain laborious work. There are certain types of work that the women do not do because they are not physically fitted for it. There are other classes of shops in which it is difficult to see any difference between the work the woman does and the work the man does. Very often the man is put into the particular department of the shop because of the nature of the goods sold. Nobody wishes to see them all interchangeable. Common sense regulates the relationship between the type of worker employed in the department and the goods sold.

There is nothing in this motion or in the convention which would require the State or an employer to pay the same amount of remuneration to men and women merely because they were men and merely because they were women. The convention and the motion ask that where they do exactly the same work they should be paid the same rate of remuneration. In other words, that the woman should not be differentiated against. That is what is happening to-day.

This convention or the recommendation or the motion does not ask that women as a whole should be put on the same rate of pay as men. It recognises that there are differences there which have to be left for settlement through collective bargaining between workers and employers, but there is nothing inconsistent in the State saying, as other States have said and as His Holiness has recommended, that men and women ought to be paid the same rate of pay for work of equal value.

Nobody is objecting to saying that. The objection is to giving the State the job of controlling wage rates. That is the trade unions' job.

Suppose we take even that, we say: "At this stage do not go into the legislative field with this thing, but as example is much better than precept, proceed at once and pay your own employees and those for whose reemuneration you are responsible, on the principle of equal pay for work of equal value." If the Minister would say that, we can see where we are travelling. First, it is an acceptance of the principle by the Government and that good example will percolate down to other economic fields.

With no allowance for married men?

I do not know whether Deputy Cogan pays his own married employees an allowance. I would like to have some test.

The State does.

In respect of married employees, it is the function of the State as the State to endow marriage if it wants to endow marriage.

That is what it is doing.

So far as the ordinary private employer is concerned he has no responsibility in that respect. Nobody has ever dreamt of putting this responsibility on him. It is the function of the entire State functioning as the Central Government to endow marriage if it wants to do it, but nobody can make marriage the responsibility of an employer.

Then they cannot have equal pay between single workmen and married men.

Will the Deputy read the convention first and try to absorb some information as to how this thing has been applied in other countries? Before we are 12 months older it will be in operation in Britain.

The British Government said: "We do not contest the principle but we cannot afford to apply it."

They did not say they could not afford to apply it. What they said was that they were afraid of injecting the cost of applying it into Britain's economy at the present moment because of the possible inflationary tendencies. But that is as foggy an argument as the Minister was using to-day against the convention and the recommendation. That is just a kind of diplomatic or parliamentary handoff. But before we are 12 months older this will be applied in Great Britain and in the Six Counties in respect of the services for which the British Government is responsible there, and I am quite sure it will work out all right there as it works in Canada, the Scandinavian countries, France and many other countries, and then there will not be a shred of justification for the Minister's attitude as revealed to-day that there are difficulties in applying it here. If this works in a highly organised and highly industrialised country like France and in Canada, whose economies are mammoth compared with ours in the industrial and employment field, there is no justification for pretending—and it is only pretending—pretence in excelsis— that there are any difficulties in operating it here.

I think the Minister only sought to create some fog of misrepresentation of the real position so far as the International Labour Office Convention and Recommendation were concerned. He pretended to see difficulties which do not do credit to the ingenuity for which I give him credit—and I mean that. The Minister is only trying to find holes in the convention's recommendation which were not there, and all that was a facade for the purpose of saying "No" to this motion, because the Minister does not want to accept it. That is for either of two reasons—one, that he does not want to get into this field; or, more probably, he does not want to accept the financial obligations which will flow towards the Government if this motion were accepted.

If the Government accept this principle and apply it, and use their good offices to have it generally accepted, in accordance with the advice of His Holiness, I am prepared to withdraw the motion. Let us see if there is any radicalism left.

I am against legislation giving the Government a function in the determination of trade rates.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 23; Níl, 56.

Tá.

  • Beirne, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Cawley, Patrick.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Everett, James.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Tully, John.

Níl.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Finan, John.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough)
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Breanndán Mac Fheórais and Kyne; Níl: Deputies Donnchadh Ó Briain and Killilea.
Question declared lost.
The Dáil adjourned at 1.55 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 5th November, 1952.
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