Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 Nov 1952

Vol. 134 No. 11

Control of Imports (Artificial Silk Piece-Goods Amendment) Order, 1952—Motion of Approval.

Mr. Lemass

I move that Dáil Éireann approves of the Control of Imports (Quota No. 13) (Artificial Silk Piece-Goods Amendment) Order, 1952. We have quota restrictions on the importation of woollen and worsted fabrics. Following on the difficulties of the woollen industry here last year, the quotas fixed under these Orders were substantially reduced. The House is aware that our woollen and worsted mills are collectively capable of meeting the country's entire requirements apart from some speciality cloths for which there is a limited demand. Subsequent to the reduction of the quotas to nominal size, however, it was reported that cloths made of spun rayon were being imported—cloths which were fabricated to look like woollen and worsted cloths—and were seriously threatening to affect the position of the woollen and worsted industry or, at least, to delay the restoration of normal activity in it.

The importation of these spun rayon suitings appeared to nullify the measures which had been taken to restore the woollen and worsted industry. Having considered that position, it was thought desirable to bring these spun rayon fabrics within the scope of the quota Order. The spun rayon fabrics are not unattractive in appearance, as Deputies who have seen them may know, although they are a very poor wearing cloth. While I would not feel that——

Mr. Dillon

I believe it is a substitute for grey calico.

Mr. Lemass

——it would be desirable to prevent fabrics of that kind from being available here either by importation or by home production, it was thought desirable to exclude them at any rate for the time being until the slump in the woollen industry had passed and full production had been restored to it. The purpose of this Order was to create that situation and the inclusion of these spun rayon cloths within the scope of the quota Order has excluded them for the time being. All the indications are that the slump has passed and that trade in the woollen and worsted industry is now more or less back to normal. The position is not such, however, that we can yet consider bringing the quota back to anything like what it was before. These matters are considered periodically, in consultation with all the interests concerned. We are still keeping the quota at a nominal figure and keeping the spun rayon cloths excluded. With the revival of trade in the mills, the matter can be reconsidered at some future stage if and when it appears possible to enlarge the quota or permit the importation of spun rayon cloths without damage to our own industry.

Mr. Dillon

Is the Minister really serious when he tells the House that in so far as this Order applies to spun rayons it refers to men's suitings? Surely the Minister does not really present that theory to the House? In so far as this applies to spun rayons, it applies to a substitute that turned up for grey calico. At a time when 36-inch grey calico was being sold here for 3/8 per yard, there turned up a spun silk substitute at 2/6 per yard.

Mr. Lemass

This Order applies to woven piece-goods containing more than 85 per cent. by weight of spun artificial silk staple fibre which exceed eight ounces in weight per square yard.

Mr. Dillon

Listen to me. Heaven knows what this Order applies to because this Order is described as the Control of Imports (Quota No. 13) (Artificial Silk Piece-Goods Amendment) Order, 1952. When you come to Part 1, covering "articles the importation of which is prohibited by this Order," the first article prohibited is "all woven tissues (other than floor coverings) in the piece which—(a) are made wholly or partly of wool or worsted." Now in the name of providence how is any rational citizen to know if he wishes to find out what the quota restrictions are on the sale of goods that he must consult the Control of Imports (Quota No. 13) (Artificial Piece-Goods Amendment) Order, 1952. These goods are further defined as woven tissues which are made wholly or partly of wool or worsted and are not less than 12 inches in width. That will apply to all suitings and most cords suitable for the making-up trade. As the Minister knows, in the autumn of 1950 we directed the importation of substantial quantities of raw materials for the making-up trade and large quantities of wool tops for the spinning trade. These stocks are now being worked off and that fact is reflected in the trade figures and, of course, in the balance of payments.

I would not say that the Minister would be justified in assuming that the demand for woven woollen and worsted cloths is back to anything like what it was in 1950, because I do not think it is and it does not show much signs of getting back there. There will not be any substantial purchases of woollen goods until the winter ranges begin to be manufactured. I am 30 years in the drapery trade and I never saw a man's suit made of spun silk in my life. The Minister is not unfamiliar with the drapery trade, but I doubt if he either saw a man's suit made of spun silk. In fact he is referring to this proprietary article; he must have in mind this new fibre which I do not think has been on sale in this country at all and which is, I think, called "Tetracoline." It is being used extensively in the United States Army.

Mr. Lemass

They are used for men's suitings, as a substitute for men's suitings.

Mr. Dillon

There are men's suitings in cloth of eight to ten ounces but if the Minister tells me that this stuff can be used for men's suitings we shall call for the production of samples.

Mr. Lemass

We have samples here.

Mr. Dillon

I should like to see them. They have excluded in the first paragraph woollen or worsted tissues. The second paragraph limits the operation of the Order to woven piece-goods containing more than 85 per cent. by weight of spun artificial silk staple fibre. Looking at the pattern which the Minister has sent me, I would say it is flannel for trousers.

Mr. Lemass

It is spun rayon.

Mr. Dillon

It is flannel for flannel pants.

Mr. Lemass

It is not flannel; it is rayon.

Mr. Dillon

It is for flannel pants. If you went out in a suit of that you would get pneumonia. If the Minister wore a suit of it in the month of November, I would strongly advise him first of all to get some woollen underwear. For the summer it is all right.

Mr. Lemass

That is an argument in favour of this Order.

Mr. Dillon

I do not think it is. I want you to think of what we are doing. Take a chap who is working in this city and who has scraped together money enough to spend a fortnight in Butlin's Camp. He has a girl who is going out there. He manages to raise the price of a sports coat and he looks at last year's flannel pants and there is a patch on the end of it. He aims to get a new pair of pants, a new sports coat, a new shirt and a new rig-out for dancing for the week or the fortnight he intends to spend in Butlin's Camp. We then intervene and say to him: "No sir, you will go in the patched pants." If you are going to Greystones on the other hand, you can go to Tysons or Switzers and get a nice new pair of flannel pants but for those who can only afford to go to Dollymount or to Butlin's, the patched pants are good enough.

I remember having an argument with some financiers and saying to them that I did not think it was inflationary that we should import, if the necessity arose, the wherewithal to enable a poor boy to buy himself a pair of new flannel pants to turn out as he wished to turn out on the fortnight's holiday he gets. Now we are quite bluntly and casually saying to the manufacturers of woollen and worsted tissues in this country who may experience a passing inconvenience: "Let these little runts go out in their patched pants. It is good enough for them." But to the gentlemen who roll up in their Bentleys, their Rolls Royces and their Daimlers to the Department of Industry and Commerce and who wring their hands in lamentation and say that if something is not done to stop these rascals buying this stuff to make pants, they will not be able to change their Bentleys every year as they are accustomed to do——

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is talking nonsense.

Mr. Dillon

I am not.

Mr. Lemass

This is not intended to be a substitute for flannel.

Mr. Dillon

This material would make a great flannel pants. Many a time I sold it.

Mr. Lemass

You did not sell it made out of that material.

Mr. Dillon

I did, but I defy anybody in Ireland to say that a man would go out in a suit made of that material. All the cheaper line of pants are made out of it. The fact is that if they are not made of that, the average working boy cannot afford to buy one. Must he be deprived of that because the textile manufacturers of the country want more profit?

I ask Deputies and I ask the Minister: Is there a textile manufacturer in this country to-day, or has there ever been, who had to forgo the purchase of a new pants for the want of money to pay for it? Is there a textile manufacturer in this country who has ever bothered to ask his haberdasher: "What is the price of that grey pants that I want?" I do not think there is. Is there a single customer who ever bought a grey pants made of that material whose first concern when he went into a shop was what it would cost and who did not allow his decision as to whether he would buy or not to be materially influenced by the cost? Is it not true that a very high percentage of those who wanted to buy a pair found that the price of them made of this material was beyond their pocket, never mind the all-wool flannel, and had to go out and do without them? Is it right, quite casually, to say to our people that because a dozen men who are among the wealthiest in this country want to be wealthy our ordinary people must lower their standard of living for the time being in any case? The Minister himself says that he could only contemplate the retention of this Order for the time being. I think the Minister knows that this is a cloth which was largely used for the cheaper end of the trade and was an admirable substitute for the shoddy flannel. The Minister himself has some knowledge of the trade. Does he think it right that persons who would ordinarily buy that article should be prohibited of access to it on the grounds that those who manufacture an expensive wool substitute for it want more profit than they apprehend they would get if they had to compete with import prices?

Mr. Lemass

I have a great admiration for Deputy Dillon's versatility. He said that spun fabrics never came into this country except in the form of imitation cotton fabrics. When I said "No," and said that they came in the form of imitation woollen or worsted fabrics, he talked for ten minutes as if he were an expert on the subject.

Mr. Dillon

I think you said worsted suitings.

Mr. Lemass

Woollen and worsted suitings. I have sent him across some specimens. These are only a few of those which have come in the form of imitation woollen worsteds. My one concern was to get back in their jobs the many hundreds of workers in the worsted and woollen mills who were out of their jobs because of the abnormal importations in the spring of last year. I think it is good policy for this country to exclude these fabrics when we have unused productive capacity. What I have said is that, until we have got our woollen and worsted industry back into full production again, we can afford to exclude goods of that kind from abroad. If and when our woollen and worsted mills get back into full production again and are likely to stay there, then we can have another look at our restrictions on the import of these goods. That is what I am asking the Dáil to approve.

Mr. Dillon

The production of the class of cloth, grey woollen flannel, for which that is a substitute represents about three-quarters of 1 per cent. of the output of Irish mills.

Mr. Lemass

Not at all.

Mr. Dillon

That is a fact. If you are dealing with men's suitings then you are dealing with quite a different commodity, but the output of grey flannel trouserings represents about 1 per cent. of the output.

Mr. Lemass

They are not grey flannel suitings.

Mr. Dillon

I assure the Minister that these cloths were used exclusively for the grey flannel pants trade. If you tried to make a suit of them, the wearer would die of pneumonia in a week. They do not carry the stiffening or the padding which goes to make a suit.

Mr. Lemass

That is why we are keeping them out.

Mr. Dillon

Is it that they compete so severely with the domestic product that they may drive the domestic product off the market, or is it that the domestic product is such wretched value that no sane person will pay money for it? If anyone were so daft as to suggest that this material ought to be used for suitings, he should be put in Grangegorman. The material for grey flannel pants represents about 1 per cent. of the total production of the mills of this country. The people whom this will materially affect are people in modest circumstances to whom every 1/- counts. They are the people who buy a pair of these for the summer and we ought not to place on them the burden of either doing without a new pair of pants or of paying a price in the form of woollen worsteds.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy does not know what he is talking about.

Mr. Dillon

I have been in the business for 30 years, and I have forgotten more about it than the Minister ever learned. The Minister has allowed the vested interests who are concerned to get their pound of flesh or pint of blood to put their finger in his eye.

Mr. Lemass

I am trying to put back into employment the people whom you put out of it.

Mr. Dillon

The employment on the grey flannel for which this is a substitute does not represent more than ten men. If the textile manufacturers are such types of blood-suckers that they would throw ten hard-working men out of their mills because they could not find full employment for them making that particular cloth for one six months, then it is nearly time that they ceased to be employers in this country. If a wealthy employer running a large mill finds that one loom is temporarily suspended, is he to tell his men to get out to hell and go and draw the dole?

The Minister says that this is a transitory passing business. Does he think that, if a wealthy group of manufacturers are confronted with a temporary interruption in production, they should tell their men to get out to hell and draw the dole? If that should be their attitude, then I think they should be run out of the country. I do not believe myself that the employment of a single person here is involved. I do believe, however, that one small vested interest producing grey flannel trouserings and suitings for spivs came in and said: "We cannot sell that and put a quota on that, too." I think the attitude of prostrating ourselves before the vested interests in this country, and then saying philosophically: "You cannot have omelettes without breaking eggs," when the eggs are always little people who have no vested interest to defend, is treason on the part of the Minister to those whom it is his primary duty to defend. It should be the Minister for Industry and Commerce representing the consumer against the distributive traders and producers so as to see that equity and justice are done to all.

What revolts me is that the only voice which is listened to in Kildare Street is that of a vested interest powerful enough to make itself heard in the halls of that building. That is wrong. It is not right that we should be quotaing material like that out of the country for no better reason than to enhance the profits of a very small but powerful vested interest. It is not right that the Minister should come in here and justify what he is doing on the ground that he is protecting employment. I assert that the employment of one single individual is not involved by admitting these textiles unless the employers are the most unprincipled and irresponsible adventurers that ever disgraced any country in the world, and I have no reason to think that that is true. If it is true, the Minister should take cognisance of it. If it is not true, he should not make a case to Dáil Éireann based on what would be a defamatory libel on these persons.

Mr. Lemass

The only thing I can say arising out of Deputy Dillon's remarks is that the most urgent representations made to me in favour of the change came from the trade union representing the workers concerned.

Mr. Dillon

On the ground that they were going to be dismissed by their employers. The Minister did not call these employers in and say to them: "Do you intend to dismiss these men?" That happened to me once.

Mr. Lemass

Does the Deputy understand that under Orders made by his Government 4,000,000 square yards of worsted cloth were allowed in in excess of the normal supply? That is not the product of one loom; 4,000,000 square yards would represent a year's production by our mills.

Mr. Dillon

We are dealing with this fabric here and I am saying to the Minister that we were concerned to bring in raw material for the making-up trade, which we did, with the result that there was not one single person unemployed in that trade when the unemployment in Great Britain was widespread and constant. The Minister knows that the employment involved is very small. He says the trade unionists came to him. Trade unionists came to remonstrate with me that if I allowed the import of superphosphate of lime their members would be unemployed in Cork. I told the trade unionists to go back and tell their employer who threatened them with unemployment to take a running jump at himself and that if he jumped too far he might not like where he would land. He did not jump and there was not one single man put out of employment as a result of the import of superphosphate of lime. But the trade union members had been sent to me by their employer to make the case that there was going to be unemployment. My answer was: "There is not, and if you attempt to dismiss men on this ground you may jump further than you mean to jump." I suggest that the Minister should take a leaf out of that book.

Mr. Corry

I am rather surprised at Deputy Dillon, considering where he found himself last Sunday, and that Deputy O'Gorman is sitting beside him and knows the facts. They were given to me by the manager of the Midleton Worsted Mills. Deputy O'Gorman knows the large amount of unemployment there was in that town last year and the year before due to the import, according to Mr. O'Sullivan, the manager of the Midleton Worsted Mills, of 7,250,000 yards of this stuff into this country and that our boys and girls were told to take a running jump at themselves by Deputy Dillon.

Mr. Dillon

They were not.

Mr. Corry

They were six months out of employment. The import was so much that I can hardly say that the full complement of them is back yet. That was the result of this indiscriminate bringing in of foreign shoddy. We can put up with a little, but we cannot put up with too much when the livelihood of the boys and girls in our constituency is at stake. We are not standing for it. While there are manufacturers in this country, not pigeonhole manufacturers or small manufacturers, but decent employers who have started industries there giving employment to our people, who can tell us that they can produce the goods, they will be kept producing them and no foreigner will be allowed to come in to grab their market.

I know what happened. We all saw the result of it. Although the employers lightened the burden for them as well as they could, we had a condition of affairs where they were employed only for three days in the week and then were totally unemployed. I did not think anybody in this House would have "neck" enough to stand up and say: "Let it come in again." I have Mr. O'Sullivan's statement as to the reasons why he had to put those boys and girls out of employment. That was put down to stockpiling. It is time it ended.

When I found the condition of affairs which existed I had to come up and appeal to the Minister to put an end to the game under which looms in the mills started with Irish capital which were giving employment to our young men and women would be left idle and young boys and girls thrown out of employment. I admit that perhaps these gentlemen from Great Britain may have more attractive propositions to offer to the drapers who are selling the goods, but I know what the result of it all was. If Deputy Dillon on Sunday evening last took a little time and had a chat with some of these people in that town who were six months out of employment he would not be so anxious to come in here and attack the Minister for endeavouring to keep them in employment now.

Mr. O'Gorman

We have here this evening one of the most versatile politicians in this House in the person of Deputy Corry. If a discussion on the Einstein theory of relativity was taking place in this House, I think the Deputy who would be most loud on it would be Deputy Corry. One would imagine that Deputies on this side of the House were advocating that no tariffs should be given to Irish manufacturers and that goods from England should be allowed to come in freely. I do not think that any member of the Fine Gael or Labour Party would advocate that policy. I have stated here on numerous occasions when speaking on the Estimates introduced by various Ministers, and I have spoken on the Minister's Estimate when it came before the House, that anybody actuated by the public good will always hold that Irish products are deserving of their rightful place on the counters of the business people of Ireland. I am a businessman. It amuses me to hear Deputy Corry talking. Of course Deputy Corry is talking for the consumption of his own article outside. He wants to be able to say: "I am a great fellow, I spoke up for you in Dáil Éireann." There is no use in blinding ourselves to the fact that in the particular trade of which I am a member, the drapery trade, there has been a considerable recession during the last 12 or 18 months. Nobody but a fool would blind himself to that fact. I am glad to be able to state now, however, that there is a slight come back. The trade is beginning to find its level again. Those temporary phases, whether in industries or otherwise, have the habit of rectifying themselves in the course of time.

We here in Dáil Éireann must realise that because of the high cost of essential commodities, foodstuffs, the necessaries of life, the ordinary man in the country will undoubtedly relegate to a secondary place the non-essentials. He will put off buying them for another year. A man may want a new suit of clothes but he finds that he cannot afford it. If he has to keep a wife and family, he cannot do without food— bread, butter, tea and sugar, the necessaries. Even if the suit he is wearing is somewhat shabby, he must look after the interests of his wife and family and will put off buying a new suit costing £12 or £15 for another year.

No Deputy in this House—I will emphasise that—is more interested in the manufacture of Irish goods than I am. I have stated here on previous occasions that this tradition has been handed down since my childhood days. I remember my own windows when it was not popular to buy Irish goods with the slogan "Buy the products of your own land." I have advocated that here and I always will do it. I never sell the product of any other country before a product of my own, because I realise that when I sell an Irish article I am helping some worker in my own country to make a living.

Deputy Corry, a while ago, spoke about Midleton last Sunday. Yes, Deputy Dillon and myself were there. We discussed matters with some people who, unfortunately, had been out of employment for some time. In this House Deputy Corry takes a tremendous interest in Irish concerns, but may I ask here in the parliament of the country whether he can name any Irish concern, let it be woollens, worsteds, or anything else, in which he invested one shilling of his own money?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Surely that does not arise.

Mr. O'Gorman

It is about time to call Deputy Corry's bluff.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not discussing Deputy Corry.

Mr. J. Brennan

Is the Deputy in favour of the Quota or is he not?

Deputy Corry rose.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Corry cannot speak secondly on this matter.

Mr. O'Gorman

I hate adverting to politics, but there is no man I know who cashes in more on politics which do not cost him anything than Deputy Corry.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on this.

Mr. O'Gorman

I seldom indulge in personalities, but I want to make this quite clear: I challenge the Deputy to let us all know what he has invested in Irish industries.

Mr. Allen

Deputy O'Gorman——

Mr. O'Gorman

You are about the meanest Deputy in this House.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

That is very disrespectful

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are discussing the importation of artificial silk piece-goods.

Mr. O'Gorman

I realise that, but when I follow in Deputy Corry's footsteps and hear him talking about what he does for us I want to know what help he has given to the mills or other manufacturers except with his tongue. We can all do that but it is very little help. What basic cash has he put into the industry?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not dealing with that.

Mr. J. Brennan

Where did he get his money?

Mr. Dillon

Is that addressed to Deputy Corry?

Mr. Corry

No, Deputy Dillon, the gombeen man.

Mr. O'Gorman

I have always supported Irish industry and it is my duty to do so. Irish manufacturers produce articles which are comparable to the output of any country. We realise that when we sell an Irish article over our counters we are helping Irishmen to live. The Minister was kind enough to send us samples of various articles— 85 per cent. rayon. That will make a cheap type of trousers or sports coat. As Deputy Dillon said, if a man wore a suit or trousers of the type of material of which the Minister was kind enough to send us a sample and if he got a single shower I would be sorry for the six-footer as the clothes would not fit a Lilliputian. We all know the man who can pay 60/- or 70/- for worsted trousers, but we must also cater for the man earning £4 or £4 10s. a week. We must have an article to submit for his approval at 35/- or 38/11. I do not think that this is a matter on which we should waste too much of the time of the House, but I would suggest to the Minister that if he is prohibiting these imports—and I want to see him prohibiting them perhaps more than anyone else here—then the article of the cheaper type such as the rayon which was sent over should be produced in this country.

Mr. Corry

Deputy O'Gorman has kept very carefully——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Corry cannot speak again. He has already spoken.

Mr. Corry

I am sorry. I just wish to say to Deputy O'Gorman that Deputy O'Gorman has no money invested in land. He is a draper.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Corry cannot say anything to Deputy O'Gorman.

Mr. MacBride

Chair.

Mr. Corry

Those animals are over there for a long period.

Mr. MacBride

Chair.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Corry will please resume his seat.

Mr. Dillon

North-West Dublin is fraying their tempers.

Mr. Lemass

I want to avoid misunderstandings about the action which the Government took and why they took it. The Quota Orders relating to woollen and worsted tissues which were previously in force did not apply to these spun rayon fibre fabrics. When the difficulties of the woollen and worsted trade became serious, I arranged a conference between all the interests concerned including representatives of the workers to consider what action could be effectively taken to check them. Amongst the proposals which emerged and which were strongly pressed by the trade union concerned was one to prohibit the importation of the spun rayon fabrics, while the production of the Irish woollen and worsted mills was below their normal capacity. If that production had not diminished, if normal conditions had prevailed for the trade, I think I might have hesitated to extend the prohibition of imports to those fabrics, believing that, as was stated here, their inferior quality would prevent them securing sale here to a degree which would seriously interfere with their own interests. As, however, we had, in effect, prohibited the importation of any woollen or worsted fabrics during the time of difficulty for the industry, it was not unnatural that those who normally engaged in the import would look around for a substitute. They found this substitute which, inferior in quality though it was, could be presented in attractive forms and was likely to get sale. It was obvious that every yard that was imported would, in the circumstances prevailing, be a yard less of woollen or worsted cloth produced here.

If and when the woollen and worsted industry is back to normal production— it is very nearly there—we will have another look at the import quota and the effect of import restrictions. It is possible that spun rayon fibre will be manufactured here but it is a matter on which I would not like to prophesy. For the time being, however, it is desirable that we should restrict imports, even though it does mean we are excluding inferior cloth which we are not yet producing in this country. Until normal conditions are back again in the trade and there is a reasonable certainty that they are likely to continue, the size of the quota fixed under the Order will be determined by the evidence which is submitted to the Department from the importers, retailers, distributors, and so on, as to the requirements of the market in relation to home output.

Question put and agreed to.