Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 5 Dec 1952

Vol. 135 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 12—Office of the Minister for Finance (Resumed).

Mr. Briscoe

In the discussion on the Supplies and Services Bill the scope was greatly widened and a great number of matters considered proper and suitable to this Estimate were discussed. We had, for instance, Deputy Costello talking on the stock exchange and banking. We had other Deputies dealing with these matters. I was, therefore, Sir, I think, in order in referring, as I did yesterday, under the Supplies and Services Bill, to the E.C.A. funds. The leaders of the Opposition in their attitude of abusing and attacking this Government for not behaving as they think they should behave with regard to the activities of the Central Bank seem to forget that all the abuse is properly directed to themselves, only with more accuracy.

I pointed out that when the last Government, whether reluctantly or otherwise, decided to accept Marshall Aid there was made available to it a large sum of money in hard currency. That was a credit put at our disposal, but in fact it was very soon translated into the actual handing to us of a substantial sum in dollars. I would like the Minister to tell the House whether in his opinion the manner in which these dollars were taken care of could be regarded, to say the least of it, as prudent. I understand that the then Minister for Finance in the inter-Party Government, at the request of another Government, handed over, or agreed to hand over, these dollars to the dollar pool in exchange for sterling. I do not know whether the Government to which I belong would have decided to accept this loan, irrespective of whether or not it was urgently needed, but if we had agreed to accept it I believe we would have treasured the dollars rather than have forfeited them immediately in exchange for sterling, which was subsequently devalued.

We are accused of a catastrophic financial transaction on behalf of the State in floating a loan at 5 per cent. When I was in opposition I asked what extra burden was being put on the State for the repayment of the Marshall Aid Loan. We found that the debt had increased, first of all, by many millions of pounds because of devaluation in relation to repayment and the payment of interest which will fall due shortly. That was a catastrophic transaction if one translates it into percentage and finds out who is benefiting by this extra repayment of capital and interest charges.

I hope the Minister will tell us when he is replying if what I have stated is the fact. The inter-Party Government imprudently and recklessly shed themselves of these valuable assets and out of the proceeds lodged the sterling in the Central Bank over which they had control. Certainly they had control over this money. They left the money there invested at only 12s. 6d. per cent. Why did they do that? Why did they not take the money or ask the Central Bank to take other moneys over which the Central Bank had control and proceed to invest those in the capital ventures about which they are now so vocal without offering any explanation of their behaviour in connection with these dollars?

The fact is the balance of Marshall Aid credit had to be used up immediately after the change of Government to pay for moneys already spent by the previous Government in the shape of amounts due to various undertakings, such as the Electricity Supply Board, for their capital development. I take it the Minister will deal with the matter at some length when he is replying.

Mr. Sweetman

At some length is probably right.

Mr. Briscoe

I hope so. I have tried to trace the accuracy of the statements Deputy McGilligan made here. With his glib tongue, his repartee and his university debating education, he can put over statements without any foundation as if they represented true and accurate facts. I looked up the stock exchange lists during the period in which he was Minister for Finance to satisfy myself in connection with the statements he made here that all his loans when he left office were being dealt with on the stock exchange at par. No Minister for Finance can be held responsible for the ups and downs in stock exchange transactions because they are related to the general money situation, the rates of exchange and the rates of interest that prevail at a particular time on a particular day. No Government can keep its stock at par unless an undertaking is given to the effect that if a subscriber wants to do so he can demand his loan back at par. We all know that Government issues, or any other issues for that matter, are not dealt with in that way.

On the debate on the Supplies and Services Bill Deputy Costello referred to the stock exchange and suggested that its operations should be widened. Has the time been reached when the Minister should have an investigation made into the whole set-up of the stock exchange? We are told that every stockbroker carrying on business in the State is a Government stockbroker. That would give the impression that he is, in fact, an officer of the State to the extent to which he acts for the State in stock exchange matters. I understand that that designation is a little bit far-fetched. A stockbroker is licensed by the Government or by some Department of State, and on that basis it would be equally correct to describe a man who has a taxation licence for his car as a Government motor-driver. I do not know how the situation arose, but that is certainly not the position with regard to the members of the stock exchanges in other countries. That should be made quite clear. Secondly, a detailed examination should be made of the stock exchange operations here.

Our citizens are limited in their transactions, both buying and selling, by the manner in which the business is conducted. For instance, in our stock exchange we have no jobbers. The jobber is a very vital addition in the stock exchange. I am sure Deputy Sweetman has heard of these gentlemen who are known as jobbers. They are as full an individual in the stock exchange as the stockbroker.

Mr. Hickey

Is it not possible to do without both of them—the jobber and the stockbroker?

Mr. Sweetman

That is a new one on me.

Mr. Briscoe

On me, too. So long as you have money as a medium of exchange and so long as you have money as an indication of a person's position—so long as money is necessary to buy and sell—you cannot do without either of these gentlemen no more than you can do without a bank.

Mr. Hickey

They are very important men, at that rate.

Mr. Briscoe

They are very important men. Because of that, they should be put into a position where they can do the business to the extent of the importance that is demanded in the business. There is the jobber, as I was saying, who adds a great deal to transaction possibilities. If I want to sell some shares to-day I go to my stockbroker in Dublin——

An Ceann Comhairle

Has the Minister control over all this?

Mr. MacEntee

Yes

Mr. Briscoe

They are licensed by the Minister.

Mr. MacEntee

To deal in Government stocks and shares.

Mr. Sweetman

The operation of the stock exchange is fundamental to financial policy.

Mr. Hickey

Fundamental? The Central Bank stands a poor——

Mr. Sweetman

The whole trouble is absence of liquidity. The stock exchange is where you must go for that.

Mr. Burke

Deputy Hickey is very consistent in his philosophy.

Mr. Briscoe

If I have a block of shares to sell I ring up my stockbroker. I tell him that I have a 1,000 or 10,000 shares in a public company of which Deputy Hickey is the chairman. I tell him I want to sell them. He goes to the stock exchange and shouts that he has for sale whatever number of shares I have told him I desire to sell. If there is another stockbroker there who has an order from a customer to buy a certain number of these shares he says: "I am a buyer, not for 10,000 shares but for 200" or whatever number of shares he may have been ordered to buy. I may have no sale for my stocks and shares. Deputy Sweetman might be after me on behalf of some creditor who is pursuing me for cash but I cannot liquidate the stock to get the money. Therefore, it is essential that we should have proper fluidity or liquidity in our transactions. If the Minister will examine the situation, if he will have some advice taken on it, I am sure there will be some suggestions with regard to certain alterations which will make it possible for our stock exchange here to become much more active. There will be much more liquidity as a result of transactions and there will be a great deal more attention from outside our own shores.

I understand that Toronto, in Canada, is a very important city. I understand that it is one of the most important cities in the whole of North and South America because of its important stock exchange. I believe it is almost second, or third, as regards stock exchange activity, in the world. I will not say that our city will ever reach that stage, but there are certain limitations, I do not know why. We have certain definite restrictions attaching to our citizens in dealing in non-sterling shares—particularly hard sterling shares. The British Government set up a special fund in London of some $50,000,000—not £s—to enable transactions to take place at their stock exchange in foreign stocks and foreign shares. We have nothing at all of the kind here. Apparently the British Government realise that you cannnot cut off your stock exchange and isolate it from the rest of the world. They realise that there has to be some international association between nations in these particular transactions. I believe that, instead of having our people shout here about the repatriation of our external assets, you would have a number of external people investing in our capital ventures by subscribing and dealing in our stocks and shares. I would seriously ask the Minister to promise the House that he will have this matter examined with a view to seeing if the situation can be improved.

Mr. Sweetman

Of course, the Deputy has missed the entire reason for the absence of liquidity in the stock exchange in Dublin.

Mr. Briscoe

Perhaps the Deputy can help me: perhaps he can add to it. I have not missed the absence of liquidity.

Mr. Sweetman

The Deputy missed the reason for it. He has not stated the reason for it.

Mr. Briscoe

I may not have stated it, but I have not missed it. The Deputy will agree that if we had jobbers added to our stock exchange operators we would have additional liquidity.

Mr. Sweetman

That is not the real basis.

Mr. Briscoe

It is——

Mr. Sweetman

It is not the one that matters.

Mr. Briscoe

Stock exchange transactions arise from a number of causes. There is the man who gambles on the stock exchange. To the extent that stocks are likely to rise or show good profits in the judgment of one man and to the extent that the same stock will fall or show less profits will, in itself, develop a certain amount of liquidity because of the resulting activity. The Deputy will admit that that is one thing. Secondly, the amount of loose cash available for people who want to invest it either for short periods or long periods depends also on the rates of interest—as a security, considered purely from the interest point of view, will also to a great extent determine activities. There is a need to see if certain changes cannot be made which will help to add to the activity and consequent liquidity which would follow.

I dealt with the question of Marshall Aid, what I would call a transaction lacking in prudence. I do not know the present position, but I should like a comparison to be made between that transaction as a loan and a transaction made in the ordinary raising of money, including the last one. I pointed out, when I was speaking yesterday, that people who suggest that there is any secrecy whatever attached to this Government's approach to the financing of State matters might look up their own record. I pointed to the sale of the Land Bank. I wonder was it an example, early on, of the mentality that rather than face the situation and disclose to the public the need for additional finances, these people preferred to resort to the practice so prevalent in the history of Cumann na nGaedheal, Fine Gael and the Coalition, of realising assets quickly irrespective of the damage it would do to the State? The secret financial agreement was one secret transaction. As I said, it took the economic war to settle that matter, and it made more difficult the ending of Partition in this country.

Mr. Rooney

You were trying to wreck the country at that time.

Mr. Briscoe

I do no know what political school Deputy Rooney was brought up in.

Mr. MacCarthy

Or when he came to the use of reason.

Mr. Briscoe

If he still thinks that those with a Republican outlook are wreckers of the State I make him a present——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rooney should try to restrain himself.

Mr. Briscoe

Deputy Rooney seems to think that the people of this age will now believe that those who have steadfastly held the Republican ideas are wreckers of this country, but the people now know who attempted to wreck the movement towards the complete freedom of this country.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us pass to the Estimate.

Mr. Briscoe

I shall keep to the Estimate, but I do not want Deputy Rooney to be able to go down to North Dublin, produce the verbatim report and say: "I said that to Briscoe in the House and I did not get any answer."

Mr. Burke

Oh, I will keep him quiet.

Mr. Briscoe

It is true that the County Dublin representatives keep very close on one another's heels but I must say that in recent times it would appear that Deputy Burke has gone completely ahead of them.

An Ceann Comhairle

We will come back to the Estimate and keep to it.

Mr. Briscoe

I also mentioned that a great deal of complaint has been made to me about the manner in which the Coalition Government injured subscribers to the stocks issued by that Government. I mentioned the issue by the Coalition Government of the 3 per cent. stock at par. Shortly afterwards they floated another loan at 3½ per cent., to the complete disregard of the loss in capital value that was involved in the sale of stock held by the subscribers to the first loan, instead of giving them an opportunity to hand back their stock and take the new issue. Deputy Sweetman says he does not quite follow that.

Mr. Sweetman

I did not quite hear the Deputy.

Mr. Briscoe

I shall repeat the statement. The first issue under the Coalition Government was a 3 per cent. loan. The second issue, shortly afterwards, was a 3½ per cent. loan, and the issue of that loan depressed the value of the first loan, that is its sale value, and no consideration was given to those who subscribed to the first loan. Great damage was done to the country and the confidence of the people was shaken, inasmuch as they were given no opportunity of changing under a conversion scheme into the second loan. Is that clear to the Deputy? Did the Deputy receive any complaints about it? I am sure he did.

Mr. Sweetman

If that is a valid argument, I wonder why the Deputy did not seek to impress it on the Minister three months ago.

Mr. Briscoe

I am talking of transactions by the Coalition Government and of the way in which they did their work. I know people, small investors, who invested their total savings of £1,000 or £2,000 in that loan and, before they knew where they were, they had lost £5 in the capital value of every £100 they invested in that loan. These are people, who, having got rid of their stock at a loss, would be very chary about subscribing again to any Government issue, certainly to any issue by the Coalition Government.

Mr. Rooney

The 5 per cent. loan put an end to them.

Mr. Briscoe

The 5 per cent. rate, in circumstances as they exist, was necessary. Deputy McGilligan referred to what he called the contemptible — he did not use the word "contemptible", but that was the meaning of the expression he used— efforts of other countries which had to pay high rates. He mentioned Rhodesia. Rhodesia recently floated a 4½ per cent. loan, and it was only half-subscribed on the London market. It was only a small loan for the Rhodesian Government, but because the rate offered was 4½ per cent., under existing circumstances it was taken up to the extent of only one-half of the issue. That is an indication of the circumstances which exist to-day. If we live within a certain scheme of things, we have got to operate in accordance with the rules applied within that scheme of things. I know that Deputy Hickey has a certain line of thought and a certain belief, but I can tell you that it does not fit in with present circumstances.

Mr. Hickey

Of course it does.

Mr. Briscoe

It does not fit in with the scheme of things in which we live.

Mr. Hickey

The scheme does not fit in with the things we require in this country.

Mr. Briscoe

The Deputy has forgotten the prime factors which govern this matter. The Deputy says: "You have the men and the materials there and you only need some oil to make them operate." The oil in this matter, is the medium of exchange, money. What he forgets is that the money has to be secured from some place.

Mr. Hickey

I know that.

Mr. Briscoe

It has to have a value over and above the factors which he has mentioned, being the medium of exchange in any particular transaction, before the transaction is completed.

Mr. Hickey

Money is valueless until you apply the labour content to it.

Mr. Briscoe

I do not know how that can be worked. We travel abroad but we shall not get very far if we have not money with us. You have got to have money. If you leave Dublin and go to Canada and say: "Here I am but I have no money"——

Mr. Hickey

I am not suggesting that.

Mr. Briscoe

With the restrictions applying to foreign currency it is very difficult to travel abroad. The four of us who went to Canada had to put our heads together every evening to know how much money we had left.

Mr. Hickey

I thought the Irish pound was more valuable.

Mr. Briscoe

Yes, it is a pound note. It is money without any material or labour but it is money that can buy materials or can hire labour.

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps Deputy Hickey would reserve his opinions for his own speech.

Mr. Briscoe

Anyway I should be very pleased if the State the Deputy has in mind got a chance. I cannot conceive of a situation in the world where the medium of exchange would be just like a series of figures in a book and not something that exists as real.

Mr. Hickey

It is more real than that.

Mr. Briscoe

When the countries which are called Communist countries deal with the outside world they also demand money. When they are short of money and buy goods they give bills for them and have to pay a heavy discount rate. They also recognise money, but the difference between them and us is that their money belongs to the State. No one is allowed to have any individual wealth, but in the free countries, in the democracies, the individual is allowed to have that which he can create for himself or that which he inherits. He can use his money in the way he thinks best himself. There is no use in approaching this matter by saying that we can do without money in the sense of its being an item and not something which is believed to exist at a particular moment.

This country to-day, in its operations in relation to the balance of payments, has to recognise that it is money that counts there. We have a certain reserve of the nation's wealth in the shape of external assets. If these were to be dissipated by paying off a debit balance in the balance of trade, and if they were to be paid off at the rate that was likely to have been the rate if the Minister for Finance and the Government had not taken steps to deal with the situation, we would probably have no credit balance whatever after four or five years. Then we would be in the position in which Deputy Hickey would like us to be, with no credit balance abroad in the form of external assets.

Mr. Hickey

No. Do not misrepresent me.

Mr. Briscoe

I am trying to illustrate what would happen. We would have no external assets, and, as a result, we would have no means of paying any balance of payments debit. Consequently, we would have to do without the items which we had previously imported, even raw materials for productive purposes such, for example, as timber.

Mr. Hickey

We are the greatest customer that England has.

Mr. Briscoe

We have external assets and, as I have said, they belong, in the main, to individuals in this State. How can we attract the use of some of that money into capital investment at home? Only by assuring the people who sell out their foreign holdings that, having done so, they can re-invest them here, firstly, in industry or as a loan to the Government where their money will be secure and will not disappear and, secondly, in such a way that their money will bring to them at least the same return as they were getting for it when it was invested abroad.

Mr. Hickey

Why not use it to back our currency if we had one?

Mr. Briscoe

That is a different matter. I am talking about money. The Deputy and the House should not forget that it is not the aim and ambition of the nation just to preserve our £400,000,000 in external assets. It is the aim, I hope, of the Government and of the nation to find ways and means of increasing the country's productivity as well as the standard of living of our people, with the net over-all result of increasing the wealth of the nation. Every pound which the nation has to-day at the end of the year, over and above its requirements, is a pound in added wealth. We should see that we increase our wealth because, by doing so, we can tackle more capital expenditure items. If we have more wealth we can, even with and through taxation, help our people more in regard to social services, and see that they have an ever-improving standard of living. You will not do that by dissipating our external assets. That will not be done if the progress that should be made is not made from year to year. Neither will it be done if we say that money should have no other value than that of being a medium of exchange. It cannot be done otherwise than as I say.

We are living in a system where we have to apply our minds to the question of how we can bring to our people all the things that we want to bring to them. As far as I can see, the only way of doing that is in the manner which I have just outlined. Deputy Hickey talked about currency. Some people think you should have an internal currency and an external currency. The point we have to keep in mind is that, whatever rate of exchange will attach to the pound note, it should not be allowed to affect us adversely where we can avoid it. I suggest that we can avoid that if we continue to be a creditor nation, and if we can keep our production at least up to the level that whatever surplus we have is available to be sold to meet the cost of what we have to bring in. I do not know whether that is clear to Deputy Hickey or not.

Mr. Hickey

It is clear enough to me, but I do not agree with it.

Mr. Briscoe

I am glad to see that Deputy MacBride is here. I said yesterday, and I say again, that I am tired of these catch phrases and allegations about mismanagement by this State of the country's finances by not taking a hold of our external assets, and by not dealing with the Central Bank in the way now suggested from the Opposition Benches. I have asked the Minister for Finance to explain to the House the whole transaction arising out of the Marshall Aid Loan, for which Deputy MacBride was responsible as a member of the Cabinet that agreed to accept the loan, and why it was dealt with in the manner in which it was dealt with—with the selling of dollars and the investment of them in the Central Bank at 12/6 per cent. Why did not Deputy MacBride do all the things then that he now suggests should be done? Why are we now saddled with a heavy liability of dollars, the rate of which may vary from what it is to-day, and may even be lower, when we come to the period of repayment?

I do not want to delay the House any further. Yesterday, when speaking, I read certain statements made by Deputies on the Opposition Benches when they were Ministers, as well as statements they made before they became Ministers. I said yesterday that it is easy to appeal to the lowest instincts of some people. It is easy to appeal to people by misstating what you really believe or intend to do when you want to achieve power. I think Deputy Hickey will be a very disappointed man if he believes that Deputy Costello, Deputy McGilligan or Deputy MacBride would ever put into effect, if they became a Government, the suggestions they are now making. He will be as disappointed and disillusioned as he was after joining them and hoping they would do many of the things which they professed when in opposition.

Mr. Hickey

I am very much disillusioned by your Party not having done the things which I should like to see done.

Mr. Briscoe

We have gone a good way with Deputy Hickey. I am glad that he has stated that he is disillusioned with us also. That is an admission, anyway, that he was disillusioned by these gentlemen. At least, Deputy Hickey knows where we stand. He knows that we are not asking for his support on false promises to keep us in office. We make no bones about where we stand.

Mr. Rooney

You know where you stand in regard to North-West Dublin.

Mr. Briscoe

Deputy Rooney was very active in North-West Dublin.

Mr. Rooney

I was.

Mr. MacBride

So was Deputy Briscoe.

Mr. MacEntee

Throwing subsidised bread and turf.

Mr. Briscoe

I was active in North-West Dublin on behalf of the Fianna Fáil candidate. Deputy MacBride had his own candidate, but I wonder how Deputy Rooney would feel if there had been a Fine Gael candidate in North-West Dublin. I venture to say that such a candidate would have lost his deposit.

Mr. Rooney

You nearly did.

Mr. Sweetman

You had the strongest candidate you could find and he got a very poor show.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Briscoe must be allowed to proceed.

A Deputy

He likes interruptions.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not know what he likes. It is a question of what I like and what the House likes and of the rules of order.

Mr. Briscoe

The same thing applies to electioneering. Deputy Hickey was fooled——

Mr. Hickey

I suggest that Deputy Briscoe should not impute that to me.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Hickey ought not to be so easily drawn. He is continuing a barrage of interruptions. He should reserve his remarks for his own statement.

Mr. Briscoe

Deputy Hickey was fooled when he was in the Coalition. He believed that a lot of things would happen that did not happen. Deputy Rooney should not be shouting about North-West Dublin because the people there will become disillusioned with Fine Gael. There are ups and downs in the political world, as Deputy MacBride knows. You may be at the head of the poll on one occasion and at the bottom of the poll on the next occasion because of the view the electorate will hold from time to time and the judgment they will make, whether they are right or wrong.

Mr. Hickey

And the method of propaganda.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is time we came to the Estimate and got away from this general political philosophy.

Mr. Briscoe

I do not think I am guilty. When I am asked about North-West Dublin I have to answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is too much irrelevancy and interruptions.

Mr. Briscoe

We will find some other occasion to talk about elections. There is a lack of realisation of the proper approach to the situation as it confronts us in regard to financial matters and our balance of payments which affects our relationship with other countries. Our internal situation was discussed at great length yesterday. I should like the Minister to answer the points I have made. I want to see the responsibility for some of our problems to-day put on the right shoulders. I want to see the responsibility for the Marshall Aid transaction put where it belongs. I want it brought out into the light of day so that we may know the full details of it, why it was accepted, why they submitted to giving the late Sir Stafford Cripps the dollars for his dollar pool.

Mr. MacBride

What about the 1947 Agreement?

Mr. MacEntee

We got all the dollars we wanted from the dollar pool.

Mr. Briscoe

If Deputy MacBride's excuse now is that he surrendered the £40,000,000 worth of dollars to the British Government because he believed we had done something in 1947, the Minister will explain that to us. If that is the case he wants to make, let him make it.

Mr. MacBride

There was no question of surrendering £40,000,000 worth of dollars.

Mr. Briscoe

There was an agreement between Deputy MacBride's Coalition Government and the late Sir Stafford Cripps to transfer into the dollar pool all the dollars from the Marshall Aid.

Mr. MacBride

That is not correct.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

These interruptions are out of order. Deputy Briscoe must be allowed to make his statement. Deputy MacBride must reserve his comments until later.

Mr. Briscoe

I make that statement, and if the Minister tells me I am wrong I will accept that, but I want an explanation of it.

Mr. MacBride

It shows that the Deputy does not understand the transaction.

Mr. Briscoe

I do not think anybody understands it.

Mr. MacBride

There were no dollars received, only goods.

Mr. Briscoe

I do not understand the mentality of Deputy MacBride. We owe America a great deal of money and we got something for it.

Mr. Rooney

Goods and services.

Mr. Briscoe

We got something from somewhere.

Mr. MacBride

You spent £24,000,000 of it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Briscoe must be allowed to make his speech.

Mr. Briscoe

I have not had a chance of looking into the State accounts.

Mr. MacEntee

We got popcorn.

Mr. Briscoe

They offered us a loan of £40,000,000 worth of dollars. Is not that a fact?

Mr. MacBride

No.

Mr. Briscoe

Then we got no Marshall Aid Loan? I asked a question when in opposition as to the amount of money we owed America arising out of the loan and I was told the amount. I asked how much extra we would have to pay in repayment of these dollars because of the devaluation of the £ and I was told the amount. I asked what the additional charge on our Exchequer would be on account of the additional interest charges resulting from the devaluation of the £ and I was told that. Deputy MacBride now tells me that there was no such transaction.

Mr. MacBride

We got no dollars; we got goods. Does the Deputy remember that it was his Taoiseach and his Tánaiste——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy MacBride must refrain from answering every point put forward by Deputy Briscoe.

Mr. MacBride

——who entered into the Marshall Aid plan.

Mr. MacEntee

There was a decision recorded not to take the loan, but it was reversed when Deputy MacBride went to London.

Mr. MacBride

That is not so.

Mr. MacEntee

I will give the dates.

Mr. Briscoe

I am putting the question to the Minister: did we get dollars or credit for dollars by way of a loan over which we had control which we transferred to the British dollar pool?

Mr. MacBride

No.

Mr. Briscoe

If so, perhaps I can put a question down to-day and be in time for next week in order to find out the dates of the receipt of moneys from America and what happened to them. It is no use Deputy MacBride saying this did not happen.

Mr. MacBride

You did not get dollars. You got credits for dollars.

Mr. Briscoe

How did we get this money that was put into the pool?

Mr. MacBride

Through the Counterpart Fund.

Mr. Briscoe

From whom did we get the counterpart moneys?

Mr. MacBride

From the people who bought goods here.

Mr. Briscoe

And we had money in the bank which you are saying was taken out of the bank by this Minister when he took over to pay off the debts of the State; it is now being said this money belongs to the people who got it for goods.

Mr. Sweetman

Nobody said anything of that sort. The Deputy is not as dense as he is making himself out to be.

Mr. Briscoe

I know about the whole transaction. What I want to get clear is why an agreement was reached with Sir Stafford Cripps to transfer that credit to him.

Mr. MacBride

There was no such agreement reached.

Mr. Rooney

What did Mr. Butler say?

Mr. MacEntee

Was it done out of the kindness of Deputy MacBride's heart, out of his concern for the British sterling pool?

Mr. MacBride

That statement is untrue.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Briscoe should be allowed to continue. Interruptions must cease. Other Deputies will get an opportunity of speaking later.

Mr. Briscoe

Deputy MacBride is stating that what I am suggesting is untrue; in other words, it has no foundation.

Mr. MacBride

My last remark was in reference to what the Minister said.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy said there was no agreement. Was it out of the kindness of his heart or out of concern for the sterling area that these dollars were provided?

Mr. MacBride

That is typical of the Minister's misleading statements.

Mr. Briscoe

I want the facts of this transaction made clear to the House and made clear to the people, so that when Deputy MacBride and others go lecturing on how the finances of the State should be conducted, they will know how he acted when he had responsibility in the conducting of the State affairs. It is easy to go to some debating society or some Clann na Poblachta cumann and read a speech, letting those poor people who have faith in Deputy MacBride believe: "This wizard, if he were only there, look what he would do." What I want them to know is what he did do when he was there, how the country was let down as a result of the mismanagement of the State's affairs when that Coalition Government, of which Deputy MacBride was one of the most influential members——

Mr. L.J. Walsh

Moryah!

Mr. Briscoe

He was influential with that group. There is no doubt about that.

Mr. Rooney

Would you like to have an election on the issue?

Mr. Briscoe

Deputy Rooney is like a fellow in the fourth floor window when there are stones being thrown down below who will shout from the top: "Would you like to have an election on the issue?" Nobody would get such a fright if there was an election in the country as Deputy Rooney. All the dual-purpose hens would start cackling throughout the nation.

Mr. MacBride

Why not try it?

Mr. Briscoe

It might come sooner than Deputy MacBride would like it. It is not my duty to make decisions like that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot try it now. We are not discussing the question of elections.

Mr. Briscoe

In conclusion, I would ask the Minister to deal with two distinct matters. As far as I am concerned, I want the Minister to give us here a comprehensive statement about this Marshall Aid transaction, and I want him also to consider whether he would have the stock exchange business examined with a view to future improvement in its activities.

Mr. Rooney

I studied the speech made by the Minister in connection with this Estimate——

Mr. MacEntee

The speech which you fellows objected to being continued.

Mr. Sweetman

The speech of which the Minister ought to be heartily ashamed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Rooney should now be allowed to make his speech.

Mr. Rooney

Having studied the speech I find it only contained——

Mr. Cogan

187 interruptions.

Mr. Rooney

I did not have time to count the interruptions.

Mr. Sweetman

We had a little constructive work to do. We could not waste time counting up like Deputy Cogan. He was probably told to do it by his masters.

Mr. Rooney

I find in that speech that the Minister mentioned practically nothing new when compared with the speeches of his published from time to time over his name in the newspapers. The nation is still dazed by the panic speeches which were made this time last year by the Minister and his colleagues, irresponsible speeches, scare-mongering, and declarations that we were heading for bankruptcy. That is the position of the country now. It finds itself in a condition into which it was put as a result of that campaign and that attitude. The campaign, of course, was directed for the purpose of making little of the inter-Party Government, the prosperity which it brought, and the progress which it made. If we compare the value of the £ this year with that of this time last year or two years ago, we will find that it has fallen. It has fallen owing to the policy of the Government. The purchasing power of a week's wages has also fallen. The real test of whether a country's policy is good or bad is the value of its money and the purchasing power of its money, and the value of the money to wage earners.

Mr. Cogan

Lower prices to the farmer.

Mr. Rooney

Lower prices to the farmers—like the case of the turkeys.

Mr. O. Flanagan

You are well off now.

Mr. Rooney

The £ is continuing to shrink in value and the policy of the present Government will cause a further reduction in the value of the £. Reference was made to the adverse trade balance of 1951. Let us remember that the present Government, with its so-called Independents supporting it, were in office for more than half of the year. They came into office in the middle of June and I am only going to give the figures for the remaining six months, July to December. During that time the adverse trade balance amounted to £49,500,000. The present Government had control over that. If they considered that it was necessary, they could have taken action to adjust the trade balance. They had £26,000,000 in hands when the change of Government took place. They dissipated in seven months that £26,000,000, while £18,000,000 only had been used by the inter-Party Government from these Marshall Aid funds. The total of £61,000,000 was mentioned as being the adverse trade balance and I have pointed out that in the last half of the year the adverse trade balance amounted to £49,500,000. Therefore, the Government must take responsibility for a major part of the unbalance to which they have referred.

Other difficulties being caused, of course, will arise from the 5 per cent. National Loan. The 5 per cent. National Loan is going to affect this nation not only for the coming 20 years——

Mr. Cogan

We will be paying for the Marshal Aid for the next 30 years, $9,000,000 a year.

Mr. Rooney

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again.