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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Mar 1953

Vol. 137 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Department of Lands (Establishment of Foresters) Bill, 1952—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The object of this Bill is to enable established, i.e., permanent and pensionable, status to be conferred upon the forester staff of my Department without the necessity for the holding of a competition by the Civil Service Commissioners under the Civil Service Regulation Acts. I feel sure that Deputies on all sides of the House will welcome the measure, and I do not think I need speak at length in support of it.

Before the administration of forestry in Ireland became the responsibility of a native Government there was a scheme afoot to grant pensionable status to at least a proportion of theforester staff of the British Forestry Commission. The scheme had not reached finality, however, at the time of the change of Government, and the matter was not pursued in the case of the Irish forestry service. The question has been the subject of long standing and pressing representations from the forester staff. Their claim has always had the full sympathy of my Department, but various difficulties of a general nature precluded a favourable decision in the past.

There are at present 163 foresters serving in the Department and of these only one has the pensionable status and degree of permanence which is enjoyed by established civil servants. The exception I have mentioned is one officer remaining from a small group whose cases were dealt with under Section 12 of the Agriculture Act, 1931, as having had reckonable service remunerated out of some of the special funds mentioned in that section. The employment of a forester is essentially permanent in character. Once a forest is established there will always be need for a forester to take charge of its management. Even if the forester who supervised the initial planting were a young man he could not hope to see the first crop reach maturity before he passed the normal age for retirement. In such circumstances it is anomalous that the forester staff should be employed in a temporary capacity and denied any hope of enjoying a pension on retirement.

When the decision was taken last year to grant established status to the foresters it was felt that the normal procedure of establishment by competition held under the Civil Service Regulation Acts would not be appropriate for a variety of reasons. Since no future need for contraction of staff could be foreseen there was no reason for confining the benefits of establishment to a proportion of the forester staff and retaining the remainder on a temporary basis to provide against a future reduction in total numbers. There was therefore no question of selecting only the best qualified and most suitable officers for establishment and no real competitive requirement to be fulfilled. Nor was there anyissue to be determined as to the standard of qualification of the officers affected. Forestry development in this country is almost entirely the concern of the State and there are scarcely any opportunities outside the State Service for acquiring a good knowledge and experience of large-scale forestry work. My Department's forester staff requirements normally have to be met by teaching and training suitable candidates at the State Forestry School. Most of the present forester staff were so trained.

They are all qualified and experienced officers already engaged on the work, and there is no need to test their qualifications and suitability for established forester posts by the holding of an examination. In these circumstances establishment by way of a competition held by the Civil Service Commissioners would have been a futile and time-wasting procedure. To give some appearance of real competition it would have been necessary to announce a limited number of vacancies but from the outset it would have been the intention to extend the successful list to include all candidates who qualified. There were, furthermore, some technical difficulties in the way of the holding of a competition as, for example, the complications arising from the fact that four separate grades of forester were in question. In effect, the situation was one which the Civil Service Regulation Acts were not designed to meet, and the Government felt that in this case rather than render a formal lip-service to the procedure ordained by the Civil Service Regulation Acts the proper course would be to seek the approval of the Oireachtas for a straightforward measure to enable the benefits of establishment to be conferred upon the forester staff without the formalities of a competition. That objective will be attained by Sections 2, 4 and 5 of this Bill.

The only other provision in the Bill is of a consequential nature. Provided there are sufficient vacancies available, forestry trainees who satisfactorily complete their course of training and show promise of fitness for appointment as foresters enter the forester staff without undergoing acompetition—the course of training itself having been awarded on the results of a competition held by the Civil Service Commissioners. Existing forestry trainees are not, however, eligible under their conditions of service for appointment as forester in an established capacity without competition. Section 3 of the Bill is designed to remove this difficulty.

This is one of these things which it is as well to have done. The Minister is to be congratulated on being able to side-track the Civil Service Commissioners. I take it that the head forester and all those people who hold these appointments in Grades I, II and III, irrespective of their age, become permanent. Is that assumption correct?

That they are automatically appointed?

I think it is a pity that, having done so well, the Minister spoiled it a little by still having to get the concurrence of the Minister for Finance in his recommendations. Section 5 of the Bill reads as follows:—

"The giving of a recommendation under this Act shall, without prejudice to the necessity of having the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, be within the absolute discretion of the Minister."

I hope that he will hold that tight in his hand and will not let anyone in the Department of Finance or in the establishment section interfere with it.

These men now become permanent officials of the Minister for Lands. That is a big step forward. It is one that will have far-reaching effects. I imagine that it will apply to other sections of State servants, and that this will be taken as a precedent for them. I think it is right that it should. I hope that in other cases, where similar circumstances apply, the Ministers concerned will take their courage in their hands and come to this House to have legislation on these lines passed.

I think it is going to assist forestry by giving those who are in charge of the work security of tenure in their employment. They are now to be made permanent, and I hope that they will give valuable service to the State in their new status. I trust they will do the work which the nation requires to be done and that is to increase forestry generally. As I have said, I do not know how the Minister got over the difficulty of being able to sidetrack the Act dealing with the Civil Service in this matter, or how he got the Minister for Finance to agree. But, having achieved that, he is to be congratulated.

This Bill is to be welcomed. It has been contemplated for a long time, and we are glad that, at last, we have it before us. It is about time, I think, that foresters were put on the same footing and were granted the same rights and privileges as other State servants. The foresters who will benefit directly from this Bill when it becomes an Act are fulfilling a very useful part in the life of the country. I should like to pay a tribute to them because I can speak from personal knowledge of their work. I know and appreciate their work. They are certainly equal to those in any similar service in Europe. The work they have done over the years is a great credit to them. They have a masterly knowledge of their work and are enthusiastic about it. I am very proud indeed that this Bill, which gives the Minister power to establish them in their positions, has come before us. I congratulate the Minister on bringing it forward. I hope that it will be the means of creating amongst our foresters a feeling of solidarity and security which, I am sorry to say, was lacking up to this. It was possible, of course, for them to advance from the position of head forester to the inspectorial rank, but, in the case of the young foresters, promotion in that direction seemed a long way off. I often felt that they were under the impression that they were not getting a fair deal from the State which they were serving so well and so faithfully.

As regards the Bill itself, there aresome points on which I should like to get more information, and others on which I want to offer some criticism. I should like, first of all, to refer to sub-sections (1) and (2) of Section 2 which read:—

"(1) Where on the passing of this Act a person holds a situation to which this section applies, the Civil Service Commissioners may, on the recommendation of the Minister given with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, grant to him a certificate of qualification for that situation.

(2) A certificate under this section shall be expressed to take effect from the date of the passing of this Act."

I am afraid that the adoption of these two sub-sections would nullify, to a very great extent, the good effects of the Bill, and I would urge on the Minister the necessity of altering them.

You mean that their service is to count only from the date of the passing of the Bill?

Yes. My reading of the Bill would lead me to the conclusion that the period of service by the foresters prior to getting the certificate will not be taken into account in computing their pension. Therefore, they will be placed at a disadvantage when compared with the position of other civil servants. While this Bill represents a step forward in their case, that is a matter which, I think, should be corrected.

There are 15 foresters over 50 years of age. I know there is a statute in existence which debars civil servants over 50 years of age from being established. I should like to have information from the Minister as to whether those 15 foresters, of all grades, who are over 50 years of age will be entitled to a certificate under this Bill or whether they will be debarred by previous legislation, or whether the sub-sections I have referred to are due to an oversight in the drafting of the Bill—that is to say that a previous enactment passed, I think, in 1925 was not repealed for the sake of thoseforesters. Five of the foresters have from 28 to 30 years' service; one has 25 years' service; three have 23 years' service; 74 have from ten to 20 years' service. I have taken their cases, and I have made a rough and ready calculation as to what it would cost the Minister for Finance extra to include them and give them the same benefits as civil servants with the same period of service in other Departments. I think I am not far wrong in saying that if they were included, and got the same terms as other civil servants, the extra cost would not be more than £3,500.

Do you mean annually?

No, but according as each forester had reached retirement age and started to draw his pension. The total sum, I think, after a period of from 12, 14 or 15 years, would reach £3,500. In the first seven or eight years after the passing of the Act, it would not be more than £20 to £100 per year.

The Minister can take it that Deputies on all sides of the House are very proud of the work which the foresters are doing. A forester in charge of a forestry centre in the country may have charge of from 20 men to 70 or 80 men. It is these head foresters who are really doing the work. They give advice to the Minister, to a great extent, when offers of land reach the Department. They advise as to whether the land offered is suitable for planting or not. It is he who must lay out the particular piece of land and advise his superior officers as to the best species of trees to plant and the species most likely to succeed in the particular soil. He must estimate the drainage to be carried out and the preliminary soil preparation necessary, and he must supervise it all.

To my personal knowledge, most foresters work overtime to keep the accounts right. They take such a keen interest in their work that they stay on the mountainside and the bogs where the men are working while there is light in the sky, particularly in the winter time. Then some of them have to do three or four hours' overtime tokeep accounts right and to reply to queries from the Department. If the Minister were to tell us how many foresters have fallen from the path of virtue since the establishment of the Forestry Division, the number would be very small, and would compare more than favourably with any other branch of the State service.

I admit I am putting up a strong plea for these men. During the period that I was in charge of the Department of Lands I took a very keen interest in their work and I have yet to discover a lazy or backward forester. I never met one that was not like a dynamo, full of enthusiasm for the particular work. So much so, that at times one of the faults I had to find with them was that they would recommend the planting of the best arable land in the country, if they got their way. That is the best compliment I can pay them. The trouble was to keep them in check.

The Minister gave me some figures the other day which are, roughly, that there are nine foresters with from 20 to 30 years' service; 74 with from ten to 20 years' service; and 80 with service less than that. It is the first category with which I am particularly concerned. Will they get the same benefit or will they not? The amount of money involved will not develop into a substantial sum for perhaps 12 years and even then it would be no larger than £3,500 to £4,000 a year. That is a rough and ready calculation I made in trying to estimate the cost. Only one has 30 years' service; two have 29 years' service; two, 28 years' service; one, 25 years' service; one, 23 years' service. It will be another ten to 15 years before these are due to retire. There would be only nine who would benefit within the next 20 years. If the Minister amends the Bill in the way I suggest the amount involved will be small. These men should be put on the same footing as other State servants.

Section 5 of the Bill says:

"The giving of a recommendation under this Act shall, without prejudice to the necessity of having the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, be within the absolute discretion of the Minister."

That is the Minister for Lands. According to Section 2 he must have the concurrence of the Minister for Finance. Is there something wrong with the drafting of the Bill here? Section 5 would seem to invalidate or at least negative the provisions about the Minister for Finance in the earlier sections.

I wish the Minister God-speed with the Bill and I would ask him to amend the Bill in the way I have suggested. If the amendments do not appear from the hand of the Minister, they will appear from my hand or from the hand of someone on this side of the House. The Minister would be well advised to bring the forestry service into line with all the other Departments of State in this matter.

Is mian liom comhgháirdeachas a afráil leis an Aire as an gcéim seo atá sé ar thob a ghlacadh, is é sin, gradam stáitsheirbhiseach a thabhairt do na foraoiseoirí. Is maith an rud é agus is maith liom a fheiceáil go bhfuil an chéim seo ghá glacadh agus comhartha é go bhfuil an tAire agus Coimisiún na Talún, Rannóg na Foraoise, ag glacadh na ceiste dáríre agus chun foraoiseoireacht sa tír seo a chur ar ghradam mar ba chóir.

Is maith an rud é go mbeidh scrúduithe do stát-sheirbhísigh mar is é an t-aon tslí amháin é chun na daoine is fearr a phiocadh, ach tá ceist speisialta anseo agus mar adúirt an tAire nuair bhí sé ag caint, ní fhéadfaí é a réiteach trí scrúdú; agus ghlac an tAire an chéim ba chóir a ghlacadh chun na daoine seo a bhunú sa tseirbhís.

Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur ar an Aire mar gheall ar oibritheoirí a ghlacfar isteach san am atá le teacht. Dúirt sé go dtabharfaí tréineáil dóibh i bhforaoiseacht, go mbeidh scrúdú chun dul ar an chúrsa tréineála sin agus ansin go bpiocfaí na daoine—níl a fhios agam ar dhúirt sé na daoine go léir—isteach sa tseirbhís, nó an bpiocfaí na daoine is fearr. Má ghlacann daoine dream ar bith de bhuachaillí agus má tugtar tréineáil dóibh, ní hé sin le rá go mbeidh gach duine acu fóirstineach don tslí bheatha a dtugtar tréineáil dóibh ar a son. Má chuireann tú dream fir óga ar treineáil i gcóirforaoiseoireachta agus má tá, agus is dóigh liom go mbeidh, i ngach buíon a cuirtear ar an tréineáil sin, duine nach mbeidh fóirstineach don phost ar chor ar bith, conas, dá bhrigh sin, mura mbíonn an dara scrúdú ann, a bheifear ábalta a rá cé atá fóirstineach agus cé nach bhfuil?

Pointe eile a thugaim don Aire— luaigh An Teachta Blathmhare an rud céanna: Na foraoiseoirí seo a bhfuil seirbhís, abair, 20 bliain nó 15 bliana, nó 30 bliain, tugtha acu, an gcuirfear san áireamh an tréimhse sin i gcóir pinsin, is é sin le rá, má tá—agus tá— tréimhse fhada tugtha, deirim gur ceart an tréimhse sin, pé acu atá sé fada nó gairid, a chur san áireamh chun pinsin a thabhairt do na daoine seo.

Tá buntáiste ag baint leis an Bhille seo. Beidh a fhios ag na daoine seo anois go mbeidh post seasmhach acu. Cuirfidh siad níos mó suime ina gcuid oibre ná mar a chuirfeadh dá mbeadh siad ag súil ó lá go lá go gcuirfí as an tseirbhís iad. Beidh siad ábalta suim a chur ina gcuid oibre ós rud é go bhfuil post buan seasmhach acu.

Deirim, mar adúirt An Teachta Blathmharc go bhfuil obair an-tábhachtach ghá dhéanamh ag na daoine seo. Is féidir go mbeidh líon na bhforaoiseoirí ag dul i méid ó bhliain go bliain, is é sin le rá, i ndeireadh 10 mbliana tá súil agam go mbeidh a dheich n-oiread d'oibritheoirí ann agus atá anois ach ba mhaith liom an pointe sin mar gheall ar dhaoine a tabharfar isteach sa tseirbhís san am le theacht, ba mhaith liom iad a thabhairt isteach trí scrúdú agus go mbeadh scrúdú eile ina dhiaidh sin chun daoine nach bhfuil fóirstineach don obair a bhaint amach agus a chur ar leataobh. Is pointe tábhachtach é, tar éis cúrsa tréineála go mbeadh scrúdú ann chun na daoine nach bhfuil fóirstineach agus nach mbeidh ariamh, iad a phiocadh amach. Dá bhrí sin, ba mhaith liom nach nglacfaí an tslí seo chun lads óga eile a thabhairt isteach sa tseirbhís a glactar sa tseirbhís go ginearálta.

I should like to join with the last speaker and Deputy Blowick in congratulating the Minister on this very excellent measure. Thereis no use in criticising the Minister or his predecessor for what happened years ago. I suppose the old saying "better late than never" applies in this case. It is important that the House should realise that the work of the Forestry Department, little and all as some of us think it is, could not be carried out without the active help and the intelligent direction of these foresters. The work performed by these men is similar to that of commandants, captains and lieutenants in the Army while on active service. These are the men who have to carry out the hard work of leadership and guidance on the field of battle, and in the planting and the planning which is necessary for the carrying out of the afforestation programme the foresters have played a very important part. For that reason I think it is all the more extraordinary that after a service of 30 years or more by some of these foresters it is only now that legislation is being introduced to establish them; in other words, that these men have been employed in a temporary capacity for the last 30 years or more working energetically and earnestly on behalf of the State.

This measure is one which I am sure all sides of the House will welcome. I should like to impress on the Minister also that all sides of the House would like him to give sympathetic attention to the suggestion made by Deputy Cunningham and Deputy Blowick.

The position in regard to these foresters is similar to that of many other unestablished ranks in the Civil Service and, without widening the scope of the discussion, I suggest to the Minister that a forester who has given 20 or 30 years' service to the State and who is to be established under this Bill, unless his previous service in a temporary capacity is allowed for, will have very little opportunity to take advantage of what should have been his right for the last 20 or 30 years. Some of us would wish to put down amendments to improve the section in the Bill dealing with the pensionable service of the foresters, but these amendments would in all probability be ruled out of order by the Ceann Comhairle. I should like, therefore, to impress on the Minister thatthese foresters should get full recognition for the service they have given to the State in a temporary capacity up to the present. I think it is only fair that we should consider especially the position of the older men.

Deputy Blowick said that the effect of this Bill will be to give a sense of security to those men who have worked so hard up to the present, and that it will be an encouragement to the right type of men in future to go into forestry work. It may be the first step towards that real expansion we are all so anxious to see in forestry in this country. Deputy Blowick mentioned that these men had to be held back, that they were straining at the leash at times, and were urging that more work should be done in connection with reafforestation. That is a splendid recommendation for these men. I am only sorry that that spirit did not move more than the foresters, that the heads of the Department and the Minister himself were not prodded into action earlier by the wishes of these men who are trying to help in connection with this matter. I should like to congratulate the Minister on the good work he has done by introducing this Bill, and I hope he will see his way to consider amendments which may be submitted to improve the Bill as far as we are concerned.

I am glad that the Minister has taken courage at last to bring in this measure. It is a ridiculous state of affairs to have an employee in any undertaking for three or four or five years without his being given permanent status. In industrial employment a man is considered to be a permanent employee after 12 months' continual service, while in the Forestry Department and other branches of the Civil Service we have men and women with 20, 25 and 30 years' service still without the status of permanent employees. I hope the Minister will give credit to these men for the years of temporary service which they have given. I know employees who had given from 15 to 25 years' service before they were established and when they were established they were onlygiven credit for four years out of that period of temporary service.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
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