Committee on Finance. - Vote 56—Defence (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (14th Dáil) – Friday, 22 May 1953

Committee on Finance. - Vote 56—Defence (Resumed).

Mr. S. Collins

When this debate concluded on 6th May, Deputy Seán MacEoin formally moved a resolution standing in his name that the Estimate be referred back. It is unfortunate that Deputy General MacEoin is not available immediately this morning to continue the debate. However, we have to take the general over-all position of the country and correlate it to the general problem of defence. I think this House and the Minister himself are certainly aware that I have consistently advocated all amelioration possible in relation to Army personnel. I am glad that general Army personnel will benefit to the limited extent that benefit is granted in the new scheme of the arbitation award for the Civil Service. I candidly feel that, while there is much substance in the adulation towards the Army displayed by the Minister in his opening address, we have to be slightly more realistic in our approach.

We, in this country, cannot conceive that the regular standing Army as such can be looked upon as other than the nucleus of such forces as we mighthave to use in this country in the event of hostilities, or in the event of being in any way embroiled in conflict. While we can say to the Minister that it is gratifying to see the steady flow of recruits, as he described it, into the regular Army, his speech unfortunately discloses a most unhealthy situation in the general defence position, because, any of us who have served in the Army, any of us closely connected and sympathetic towards the Army, will have grave misgivings when we find what the situation is with regard to the First Line Reserve and the F.C.A.

I do not want the Minister, or indeed this House, to feel that I am trying to castigate the Government or in any way to castigate the Minister for what seems to have been an unfortunate trend since the end of the emergency. I would be more anxious, and I feel that the House would be more anxious, that we might find some way of arresting the growing lack of interest in the F.C.A. and the growing diminution of the First Line Reserve. I think the time has been reached when it would be well for us to try to find the root cause, and having found the cause, to try in an all-Party nonpartisan way to arrest what might be described as the decay in what are the real sinews and arteries of defence.

I am in thorough agreement with the sentiments expressed by the Minister with regard to the Army proper. I think that any of us who is in any way closely connected with it, will appreciate that there has been a quickening of interest and that, with the influx of recruits, there has been a regeneration of interest in the Army generally because of this increased activity. There is nothing on which the Army will thrive more quickly than plenty of activity, a sense of variety and the new equipment that is bringing renewed interest into the training of personnel, with the inevitable impetus that must provide for officers and others engaged in the training of that new personnel.

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps at this stage, I should remind the House that Votes 56 and 57 are being taken together.

Mr. S. Collins

I appreciate that.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is well that Deputies should know of that arrangement.

Brendán Mac Fheórais

Is that usual?

Mr. S. Collins

It has been done specifically at the request of Deputy MacEoin.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Traynor)

And the House agreed to it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister made a statement on both Votes.

Mr. S. Collins

I think Deputy MacEoin was anxious that they should be taken in that way. It is a source of pride to all of us to see everywhere in the environs of the city and in various parts of the country the standard of training and the bearing displayed by the type of personnel we now see coming into the Army as recruits. One might argue on the question of cost. I am not inclined, nor have I ever been inclined, to quibble about the cost of maintaining the Army. If we are in general agreement in this House, as we seem to be, on maintaining an Army of a certain basic strength, I think it is reasonable to expect that we should give all the encouragement we can to seeing that the Army is maintained at that figure. I think it necessary that we should at all times express our appreciation of the effort, the consistent effort, particularly of the senior Army officers, the older N.C.O.s, junior or senior, and men who have given so many years' worthy service to the State. They have been the basis of the nucleus on which was built the standard we have reached to-day in our Army personnel, a standard which I have no hesitation in describing as equal to that of any Army of commensurate size in the world and a good deal higher than that in most armies.

I take the view that it is right for us to express appreciation of the General Staff of the Army, and of the Army in general, for the standard of efficiency it has attained but, as I indicated in opening my remarks, ourmain concern must be that that vast reservoir of people, who served throughout the emergency in this country and who in normal circumstances could provide a tremendous source of recruitment to the First Line Reserve, has not only dried up but that there is a rapidly increasing diminution in the number of men in that First Line Reserve.

I do not think the Minister is right in suggesting, as he did in his statement to the House, that people drafted to the First Line in the emergency were getting beyond the age limit. That may be true of personnel who had served a long number of years in the Army but the Minister must realise, as I, Deputy Carter, Deputy Vivion de Valera and all Deputies who had the honour and privilege of serving with the colours during the emergency realise, that the main reservoir of men available should be in the age group of about 28 to 34 or 35 years. A tremendous number of those men should be available to be incorporated in our First Line. It may be that people would say that training has changed since then and that equipment has been outmoded. The Minister and every Deputy who is conversant with army training are aware that the basic training and the conception of military discipline and authority which was so ingrained in that personnel throughout the emergency was a great basis for development even when new equipment arrived.

It is tragic—I do not say this in a political sense or in a spirit of trying to make an issue of it—when you examine the realism of an answer to a parliamentary question asked by Deputy MacBride, that virtually 50 per cent. of the personnel disbanded from the Army after the emergency are now emigrants to England, Scotland, Wales or countries further away. There must be some root cause for that which this Dáil should investigate and find a solution for. What has happened that the people who served gladly and willingly throughout the emergency find themselves, in the main, emigrants? What has happened to the genuine efforts towards resettlement, a scheme which, I think, the Minister honestlyconceived and genuinely endeavoured to work? What has happened in regard to the resettlement and rehabilitation of people who gave that service? What has happened that the scheme has not worked? I do not want the Minister to feel that I have criticism to offer in any way. I think the scheme conceived was a basically good scheme but I would like if the Minister were able to tell the House what transpired in the meantime that this scheme went awry.

It is true—and we have got to face up to it in this House—that the emoluments and the various cash grants available to the First Line Reserve are not very attractive. It may well be that the Minister meets stringency in regard to the national purse. I pressed here when I was behind the Government in office and since we were transferred to these benches that we should be as liberal, if not more than liberal, with our First Line personnel and our magnificent Second Line Reserve, the F.C.A., for the purpose of ensuring that that particular vital facet of our defence would prove increasingly attractive to the people of the country and provide a pool of well trained guardians of liberty in their own particular rural districts.

I looked over the position which obtained during the last three or four years. I did not confine myself to the period of the Minister's stewardship. I would not be unfair to the Minister by trying to limit the evidence of the growth of this decay to his period of office, but I think the time has come for us to get to real grips with the problem of our First Line Reserve and the F.C.A. because at the present rate of falling off we will not only find a huge national investment lost but that the conception and the tradition of jealously guarding our liberty will have been forgotten.

It is no easy thing to have to face the stark realism of the modern age in Ireland. There are many people in this country who are not conscious of the tradition into which they were born. They are not in any way appreciative of the tremendous sacrifices made bymany people to give them that heritage. There are many people in this country who are not prepared, as the generation before seems to have been prepared, to guard jealously with all that is in them and all that they have at their disposal that heritage of liberty. There is something gone wrong. In this particular respect I am not blaming any Minister but there is some queer twist of materialism that has left the young people in this country anxious to fly it at any price. As a consequence, the development of our First and Second Line Reserve has been seriously retarded.

There is something rotten somewhere, whether it is due to the economic situation or to a growing uneasiness consequent on successive catastrophic wars does not matter. What, I think, really matters to this House, and what must be faced up to, is the necessity for analysing the basis of the problem in order to get to grips with it and solve it. It should be our duty to ensure that the democratic rights of this Parliament, which were so hardly won, might never be put in jeopardy by lack of interest or lack of people conscious of their duty to preserve this State.

I do not know of what assistance we in the Opposition can be in arresting this decay in the First Line Reserve and the F.C.A. but I unhesitatingly, as I have in the past, offer any assistance or help that I can to the Minister in any effort that may be made. The matter should be a source of heartbreak to all of us. It must, however, be a grave source of worry and uneasiness to the General Staff of the Army itself faced, as they are, with the annual diminution in the type of personnel that must in the final analysis be the backbone of any resistance that we might ever be called upon to make. The history of this country, the whole glorious story of our wonderful struggle for liberty is bound up with that inherent quality that has ever been in our people to preserve, no matter what personal sacrifices were necessary, the bright cherished hope of ultimate liberation. I hope the House will be indulgent if I labour this particular aspect, because I feel conscious of thefact that there is something wrong that we should be able to put right.

I say that because it seems unnatural to the children of a generation which gave so much and at such a price, won so much for the country, not to have that vibrant, live interest in its preservation and conservation that was manifest heretofore. That is something which is outside of politics and which is bigger than politics, something which shows a serious deterioration in the national concept itself.

That is why I am taking this opportunity, not in an impassioned but in a reasoned way, of making an appeal to the House that we might, in our collective wisdom, find some way of assisting the Minister in arresting the decay that is showing itself in the First Line Reserve and in the F.C.A. I say that because I am afraid that decay may become even more serious than it is. I do not think, no matter what allegations may be made against people, that any of us want to see the day when this State would not only have an Army but would also have people not conscious of their duty in assisting it to reach the degree of efficiency that would enable it to maintain the liberty of the nation.

It is a source of great pleasure to all of us to know that certain types of modern and improved equipment are becoming more readily available to the Army. It was, I think, a most excellent idea on the part of the Minister to afford an opportunity to a number of Deputies last year to see a demonstration of these new types of equipment. That served an extremely useful purpose. It brought Deputies up to date with the effort and the work which the Army is doing, and provided the Army itself with the reciprocal knowledge that there are many of us here who have a personal interest in its well-being and development. It is a good thing that the natural intelligence, sagacity and capacity of the Irish soldier, of the N.C.O.s and officers are having made available to them types of equipment which will bring them into line with their prototypes in any part of the world.

I do not think anybody in this House will deny to the Minister any money that may be needed to provide the Army with reasonable and adequate supplies of warlike stores. I think and I am not afraid to say it, that it was a good thing that members of this House, through the courtesy of the Minister, were enabled to see the Army, as they did last year, engaged on its real work. It gave them a better standard of appreciation of the effort which the Army is putting into its work, while at the same time it gave the Army personnel and General Staff a consciousness of our interest in the Army. Surely, the Army is owed that much by this House.

I suppose one cannot talk two ways in the present financial situation. We, here, are alarmed at the increasing burden of taxation, but, with all that alarm, I am glad that the Army personnel are getting some very small increases. I would not have any hesitation, if the situation presented itself to me, of advocating better amelioration for them. I think that we in this House can say that, through its whole established life, it has been well served by the Army, and that the Army merits our best thanks. I think it would not be right for me, when the moment is propitious as it is now, not to express the appreciation that we must feel for the Army.

I would earnestly exhort the Minister, now that he has been successful in securing an influx of recruits, with an improvement and increase in the personnel of the standing Army, to get to grips with the problem that is terribly near to the heart of all personnel who have served in the Army, in the First Line Reserve and in the Second Line Reserve. I think that we cannot rest easy or happy in this House until we arrest the trend that is there. I think we can say honestly to the Minister and to the General Staff that we feel gratified that interest in the Army has so quickened, that the general situation in the Army itself has so improved that the standard, bearing and general efficiency of our soldiers are becoming more marked as each year goes by.

But, with all that, we have to askourselves where is the basic root trouble that causes apathy in the First Line Reserve and a serious position of decay in the F.C.A. It may be that the cause of some of that difficulty, as regards the F.C.A., is to be found in the fact that it is now a more realistic body. Maybe we have over conceived its strength and its capacity in a situation where an emergency had existed, and maybe it is because it has been weeded down to an effective personnel that the main diminution in strength is shown. I feel that we have to find a way of getting at the person who was sufficiently interested at one stage to enrol but who, maybe at times, was not an enthusiastic parade attender. I think, however, it is in the interests of the country that we should find some way of restimulating interest in the F.C.A. so that we can embrace in the training of it more and more personnel. I would say to the Minister that he could discuss with the General Staff the possibility of having a further division of the F.C.A. so that duties and training might be on an even more reduced scale. I think you have got a hold on people and you have got some quickening of interest in them if you have them, even in a loose way, in an organisation. I think it is only fair, too, in passing, to pay a tribute in this House to the work of our voluntary organisations in relation to defence. I think it is worthy of mention that we should pay a tribute to the sustained effort and work of the Red Cross Society. It is gratifying to see the sustained interest and the improved training that is evidenced in constantly-improved methods of nursing and ever-increasing keen competition between units all over the country to demonstrate their efficiency in this particular branch of defence.

I am anxious, in connection with the defence situation generally, to get information from the Minister as to the success or otherwise—success, I hope —of the A.R.P. reorganisation scheme that was in vogue. I should like to get assurances from the Minister that we have been able to solve some of our equipment difficulty in the Army itself —that he has been able to get adequate type of equipment, adequate type of clothing and adequate type of trainingmethods to modernise and equip this country against the possibility of air raids in future hostilities. I am anxious to know what advance has been made in that particular facet of Army training and whether an effective scheme is now ready for the recruiting of civilians in an organised way to teach them the elements of self-preservation and the protection of their fellow-citizens in the event of future hostilities. We hope and earnestly pray—all of us—that the war clouds are disappearing in the world. However, I think that the Minister and the House itself will be anxious to know what progress has been made by the reorganised school that he has set up and how effective and successful was the course that was run for the new type of officer that is being sent to each local authority. I should like the Minister to give us, in so far as it is not unreasonable for him to do so, details of a scheme of development and a scheme of training that is now in mind. Now is the time to take the opportunity to train that type of personnel. I am really anxious to know from the Minister whether the bright hopes he cherished of this development are coming to fruition and what stage they have reached. In general, with a growing and quickening interest within the Army itself and with an improvement in equipment and training facilities, I think it would be a great stimulation to the personnel dealing with air raid precautions, to the people who are interested in that civilian end of war activity, if some regenerated and effective movement got under way.

There is one other facet of the Army on which I should like some information. I think the House is aware and indeed the Minister painfully aware of the fact that that most effective and efficient and praiseworthy limb of the Army, the Air Corps, are operating with what one might describe as an obsolescent or outmoded or outdated type of aircraft. I was wondering if the Minister could hold out any reasonable hope that equipment might be available to modernise and more effectively equip that particular branch of our Defence Forces.

In so far as the information is available,I should like the Minister to let us know how the Army Signal Corps and the communications section of the Army are getting on with regard to the type of equipment perfected at the end of the last war—whether it has been possible for us to modernise the systems of communication, whether we have been successful in getting additional radar equipment and whether we have been able, in general, to bring the general training to a more modern level. I think the House owes it to the Army to try and make available to it, as rapidly as possible, as up-to-date equipment as we can possibly get. I want the Minister to take my inquiries not in a spirit of implied criticism or in any spirit other than that of being anxious to co-operate in seeing that the Army, in its present form, is made as efficient, as effective, as virile and as live as anything this House can do to make it so.

I pass from the Army to deal with the other section of the Minister's statement. We have had agitation after agitation in this House in connection with the difficulties that have arisen for personnel who have been disabled. The Minister—I am quite sure, through no fault of his own—has not yet been able to give us the text of the proposed new Bill. We have been able to glean from the Minister for Finance in the course of his Budget statement that a sum of money is being made available to finance this Bill. I want to make an earnest appeal to the Minister, even before that Bill sees the light of day, to have the maximum amount of sympathy when dealing with the lower pension groups. I do not think the Minister should propose any measure which would give less than £50, or 100 per cent. increase, to these lower pension groups, where disability or special allowance is concerned.

I know perfectly well that, in seeking the Minister's sympathy in advocating amelioration for this section, one is preaching to the converted and it would be unreasonable of me not to acknowledge that the present occupant of the office of Minister has always been sympathetic, has always tried to effect reasonable adjustments and hasalways been approachable in relation to these matters, but, with time marching on and with the main charge likely to be a decreasing charge, I feel that we should urge on the Minister, in vacuo,as we have to, that, in particular in relation to that section who have suffered disability as a result of service given to the State with a spontaneity, a courage and a loyalty that was necessary in that period, the House should make what I imagine will be a last gesture and give the most effective treatment in the way of emoluments that it can possibly give. I know the Minister has done his best. The Bill has not yet seen the light of day and I am quite sure that is not the Minister's fault. When he promised the Bill in early January, he honestly thought it would be available, but I urge him to bring pressure to bear in regard to it so that we might get it through before this session ends. If these people are to get increases, as the Government have decided they are, it is in their interest that we give them as quickly and as effectively as possible.

I think the time has come for a reorganisation of the whole system of pensions for retiring personnel. The Minister has probably made provision in the Bill which is in draft, but the time has come for a very serious recasting of the provisions with regard to the widows and children of personnel who are killed in the course of duty. We are all aware of certain tragedies in which young personnel have been involved in recent years and equally aware of the tragedy they leave behind in relation to pension or remuneration available for their widows and children. I want to see a situation in which the Army presents itself to the young men of this country as a decent and honourable profession for any Irishman, and I want to see the Army offering all the attractions which will draw into it the best types, in the knowledge that they are in a noble profession and that, should they meet with an untimely end during their service, those they leave behind will be adequately safeguarded.

The pensions available to the widows and children of officers are deplorable and it possibly took some of these tragic occurrences to drive home to many of us how deplorable the situation could be for these people, particularly when, as in recent cases, a young man is taken suddenly, leaving behind five or six very young children. The situation for those who are left can be terribly precarious and serious. I do not think any of us want that situation to endure and I say that to the Minister in the spirit of one anxious to help and support him in making these improvements.

In regard to this whole question of defence, we have made very substantial advances in one direction, offset, in the main, by decay in others, and I say to the Minister in a serious way that a generous gesture by this House, in relation to the care which the State will offer them for service given, to those to whom we owe an obligationfor service loyally given, whether in respect of 1916 or 1918 to 1922, may effectively change the outlook of many people with regard to their duty to the country.

Mr. T. O'Sullivan

There are one or two points that I would like to put to the Minister. I may be forgiven if I put the second matter first. Item No. 16 on to-day's Order Paper is Army Pensions Bill, 1953. It is disappointing that the Bill has not been circulated so that we could discuss it in connection with this Estimate. It is unfair to the Minister also that he is not in a position to inform us of the benefits that are likely to be conferred by that Bill. If he were in a position to do that, the Estimate would be sure of a very easy passage.

There are very many improvements one could suggest in connection with the present Army Pensions Acts. As my colleague, Deputy Collins, suggested, it is simply forcing an open door to mention these matters to the Minister for Defence, especially when we know that he and the Government are doing their utmost and have this Bill almost ready. Therefore it would be wasting the time of the House for me to go into all the improvements that I have in mind. I regret very much that the Bill has not been circulated, that the Minister is not in a position to tell us now what it contains. If he were, our problems would be solved and we would have a better idea of what to discuss on this Estimate. I appeal to the Minister to do his utmost to ensure that there will be no further delay in circulating the Bill.

I congratulate my colleague, Deputy Collins, on the general tone of his speech and on his anxiety to be of assistance to the Minister and the Department. I cannot help contrasting his attitude towards this Estimate with some of the speeches made from the opposite benches in the past week in which we were told how foolish it was and how wrong it was to spend any extra money on the Army. We can take the opinions of the people who spoke in that way last week for what they are worth.

I was disappointed at the pessimism expressed by my colleague, Deputy Collins, in regard to the rising generation, the younger men. It is too true that in the years when there was little activity in the national sphere it was always difficult to rope in the young men and make them active but experence has taught us, in this generation as in all generations, that when the country called, when any danger threatened, each generation showed itself better than the previous generation. From what I know of the young men of this country, ranging from 18 to 22 years of age, I have implicit faith in them and am prepared to stake my life and my country on them. From the experience we have had even during the last emergency when, within two weeks, the ranks of the Army, L.S.F. and L.D.F. were filled to capacity with the young men of this country, we have no reason to doubt the young men of the present generation.

That is as it should be. Have not the young men of the present generation better opportunities to know and understand Irish history than had the generation growing up 35 years ago? Have not they better facilities for training? Are not they better educated, better housed, better fed? Are not they better men in every way? Why should we have any reason to doubt, that they, any more than any other generation, would let this country down? I for one, have the utmost faith in them and I can assure the Minister that he can have faith in them too.

Mr. MacBride

I am afraid I take a very pessimistic view of the present position of our Defence Forces. I am sure the Minister will appreciate that any views I express here in regard to the Defence Forces are by no means intended to be antagonistic to the building up of an efficient Defence Force, but I am afraid we will have to face the facts.

I fear that, to a large extent, probably, due to the inadequacy of pay we give to our soldiers, particularly to the lower paid ranks and also to the officers, we are not able to hold the men whom we get into the DefenceForces. Sometimes I fear that a lot of the training we give is training which will benefit another army in that many of the men who get training then have to emigrate. I have always taken the view, and I think it is a view which has been expressed on all sides of the House, that we should in the main rely on a strong voluntary force, that the function of the Army should be to train and have equipment available for a large voluntary force. I feel that such a voluntary force should be the main defence of the country.

I said a few minutes ago that I take a very pessimistic view of the situation because I found recently that the F.C.A., which is a voluntary force of this nature, fell very substantially in the course of the last couple of years. In reply to a question in this House on 11th March of this year the Minister gave me the following startling information: that the membership of the F.C.A. stood, on 31st January, 1951, at 22,570; that by 31st January, 1953, it had fallen to 15,632—a fall of 7,000 men in the course of two years.

That, I think, discloses an alarming position. Coupled with that, the Minister, on the same date, gave me another very startling piece of information in regard to our First Line Reserve. He told me that the effective strength was 3,661 but that only 2,185 had reported for training. He also told me—and this is a matter that deserves grave consideration by all members of the House—that 1,317 members of the First Line Reserve had applied for and obtained permission to emigrate and that he had no figures available to him as to the number who had emigrated without seeking permission. I do not know if there would be many under that heading. Presumably a number also emigrated without seeking or obtaining permission. That one-third, practically, of our First Line Reserve should have emigrated discloses a really alarming situation.

I do not think that this is a matter that should be dealt with on a Party basis, but we would not be doing our duty in this House if we did not realise the full implications of these figures. The F.C.A. strength fell from 22,000 to 15,000. It fell by 7,000 in the courseof two years. One-third of our First Line Reserve has emigrated. I do not know how many of them have emigrated and joined another army or how many have emigrated merely in search of employment that they could not get here. There is a lesson to be learned from these figures.

I do not want to make Party capital out of any of the criticism that was levelled against the Government of which I was a member in regard to the F.C.A., in regard to the Reserve, in regard to the Army generally. The startling fall revealed by the figures I have quoted shows that that criticism was not justified and I am quite prepared to give credit to the present Government for having done its best to maintain the strength of the F.C.A. and to deal with the position. The root cause of it, I think, probably comes from the fact that we do not pay our Army adequately and that we do not make the work of the F.C.A sufficiently attractive.

I was sorry also to learn from the Minister, in reply to some questions in the Dáil, that they had found it necessary in a number of cases to withdraw the training officers that had been assigned to the F.C.A. That is a pity because, obviously, unless training officers are available to the F.C.A. they will lose interest in their work; they will consider that their work is not of sufficient importance to warrant the attendance of a training officer. However, I think the Minister did indicate at the time that that was only a temporary step. I hope he has since been able to restore the training officers to all the units of the F.C.A.

I must say that in my view we should aim at the maintenance of a small Army, highly paid, highly efficient, whose function would be to form the framework of a big volunteer Army in the event of an emergency.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Traynor)

What is the Deputy's idea of a small Army?

Mr. MacBride

I do not want to tie myself to figures. I think it would depend largely on the personnel available and the money available but Iwould much rather see a smaller Army even than the present one, well paid and highly trained.

Mr. Traynor

A smaller Army than the present one? You are not being realistic now.

Mr. MacBride

I do not think the conditions are sufficiently attractive to compete with the lure of emigration or even the necessity of emigration. I think we have to guard ourselves against the danger of merely training men for the British Army—let us face facts—and that probably, therefore, a lot of the money which we spend on training at the moment does not benefit ultimately this country but may benefit the army of another country.

Mr. Carter

That is only supposition.

Mr. MacBride

The figures quoted are no supposition. They show that 1,317 members of the First Line Reserve sought and obtained permission to emigrate. That is no supposition. As I pointed out, in addition to that it is probable that an additional number emigrated without seeking permission.

Major de Valera

Our experience during the last emergency was that although a number went to England, between 80 and 90 per cent. came back.

Mr. MacBride

I should like to see some information to support the theory that 1,317 members of the First Line Reserve who emigrated are likely to come back. It is necessary to face realities and the only method I can suggest is that we should make the conditions of employment in the Army more attractive than those on the other side. Unless we are prepared to improve the conditions of service for the Army I think we will not get a number of the best types in the country that we would like to see in the Army.

I am not saying that in any way in derogation of the Army types; I think they are very good types; but in many cases I feel, owing to recent economic circumstances, many young men who would like to join the Army are unable to do so because they have to maintain families and to make certain provision for them. Even in that way, probably, the Army fails to recruit a great many extremely good young men who would come into the Army if conditions were better. In my view, that is the major problem we have to deal with. As I said, I would rather see a small standing Army, highly paid, highly efficient, which we knew would remain there than have conditions as they are at the moment.

As regards the F.C.A., probably more attention should be given to making their work attractive and that is why I hope that the Minister will restore, if he has not done it already, the training officers who were attached to the F.C.A. I think the training officers attached to the F.C.A. should make a very special effort to make the members feel that they are fulfilling an important function and to make the work of the F.C.A. attractive.

Personally, I have always taken the view that at some stage or another— I do not know whether this is the right time to start doing it—we should seriously consider the question of having six months' or a year's national service for all the young men of the country. Such a national service wouldbe, not merely of value to the Army but of value to our young men who are growing up. There were probably very few things in the Hitler Fascist régime that any of us approved of, but I think that the idea that every young man should, before starting life after finishing school, do one year of national service, was not a bad idea. Such a national service need not be solely of a military nature. Certainly a number of months should be spent on training and discipline, but a national service force of this kind could be utilised to do work of a social nature as well. It is a matter which should be considered and considered on a non-Party basis, if possible, because if the question of national service became a Party issue, it would be too easy for any Party to start making capital out of it.

In regard to the Air Corps, there are two matters that require attention and they are, to a certain extent, interrelated. The provisions which are made for the widows and orphans of officers who have been killed in the service of the Air Corps are a disgrace to this House and a national disgrace. The Minister knows the cases to which I refer. In a number of cases young officers, highly efficient and competent, who had given their young lives in trying to build up the Air Corps, were killed in accidents. Surely we should be able to make decent provision for the widows and orphans they left behind. Is not that one of the reasons why we cannot attract more young men into the Air Corps? I am certain that the Minister would like to make these provisions, if it were not for the Department of Finance. This House should insist on seeing that these people are not treated in a shameful and disgraceful manner.

In regard to the Air Corps, I should like to mention something related to the last matter I raised. Is the Minister quite satisfied that the equipment for the building up of the Air Corps is up to date and of suitable and proper type? I know nothing about the technical side of it, but owing to the number of accidents which have occurred, having regard to the smallness of ourAir Corps, I have been alarmed from rumours I have heard as to the quality of the actual material available to the Air Corps. Possibly there is no foundation for this alarm, but it is a matter into which the Minister should look very carefully.

I do not know whether radar is provided on the Air Corps machines. The Minister should certainly ensure that no question of economy would allow the Air Corps to make use of obsolete, worn-out machines or equipment and no question of economy should prevent the Air Corps from having available to it radar equipment and the very latest modern equipment to ensure the safety of its crews.

There is one thing to which I would like to make reference in relation to our marine service. I do not know whether the Minister has considered the suggestion I made to him on a number of occasions as to the replacing of the existing corvettes. I have always felt that these corvettes were never suitable for the work for which they were intended. The draft is too great. There are very few harbours around our coast which they can enter. If I am not mistaken the only harbours they can enter on the west coast are Galway, Limerick and Killybegs.

Major de Valera

They could go into Killary Harbour.

Mr. MacBride

They could probably enter Killary as well. It seems to me that for a coastal marine service in this country we should have vessels capable of entering most of the small harbours. I remember on one occasion a question arose of a corvette entering Sligo and I was horrified to learn that they could not go in there because they draw too much. I have always taken the view that, instead of having vessels of the corvette type, we should aim at having a greater number of smaller vessels something on the lines of the deep sea trawlers. These are very sturdy craft. They can go in and out of practically any harbour along the coast and they can stand up to any weather. Deputies who are familiar with the south and west coast will, I am sure, havenoticed these Spanish and French trawlers coming in and out in all weathers, having travelled very long distances.

Vessels of that type could also be used for the training of fishermen and thereby perform a function in the development of our native fishing fleet. That is a matter that might be considered by the Minister and the marine service should be given the function of training the men who will man the fishing fleet we hope to develop in the future. Probably the best type of vessel upon which such training could be given would be the type of trawlers to which I have referred.

I do not know what the life of the present corvettes is likely to be. I imagine they are now getting pretty old and gradually becoming obsolete. They were, after all, surplus war material and by now they can hardly be an economic proposition. It will probably be necessary to replace them very soon and when that situation arises I hope we will not again buy surplus war material without examining the position of what is the best type of vessel for our requirements.

In regard to fishery protection patrols, a suggestion has often been made here—I think it has been made by Deputy Dillon, and it seems to me to be an extremely sound suggestion— that our Air Corps should be utilised in conjunction with our naval services for the protection of our fisheries. Regular patrols over the coast would be of tremendous assistance to the naval service in locating the presence of foreign trawlers so that the naval service would be given an opportunity of reaching them before they have time to escape outside the three-mile limit.

I hope the Minister will give these matters due consideration, not from a Party point of view but from the point of view of trying to build the best defence forces we can for this country.

Brendán Mac Fheórais

Arising out of the remarks of Deputy S. Collins, and to some extent those of Deputy MacBride, I would like to ask the Minister a question; I would like him to consider that question and he may, possibly, like to comment on it when concluding the debate. I refer to theposition of the First Line reservists and to the annual grant paid to them. Both Deputy Collins and Deputy MacBride deplored the decay in the First Line Reserve. The suggestion I have to make is one which, I think, would make the First Line Reserve much more attractive and would induce them to extend their ordinary service. In 1930 the annual grant paid to a reservist private was £12 12s. per annum. In 1953 the annual grant to a First Line reservist private is £9 per annum. I know there was a change all round but it seems to me that, whilst other ranks, such as corporal, sergeant and so on received an increase over the 1930 rate the lot of the reservist private was worsened.

It seems rather strange that after 23 years a reservist private should receive something like £3 12s. per annum less than he received in 1930. The corporal has £10 per annum; the sergeant has £12 10s. per annum; the company quartermaster-sergeant has £14 per annum; the company sergeant has £16 per annum and the battalion sergeant-major has £18 per annum. If the Minister could see his way towards increasing the annual grant that would in itself be an attraction to these reservists to stay in the country, if they have any incentive towards emigrating, and to induce them to extend their reservist service.

Major de Valera

And report for training.

Brendán Mac Fheórais

Exactly, and that was another complaint made by Deputy MacBride. Quoting a reply to a parliamentary question he said that over 1,000 failed to report for training in a particular year—I think it was last year. I suggest that if there was a substantial increase in the annual grants paid, especially to privates and to the lesser ranks of corporal and sergeant, many more would report for annual training and many more would be induced to extend their service.

I would like to substantiate the remarks made by Deputy MacBride and to impress upon the Minister the need for greater protection for the fishingindustry around our coasts. Deputies from Wexford have had occasion in the last few months to complain to the Minister of the inadequate protection. They have cited examples of boats belonging to five and six different nations engaged in fishing around the coast of Waterford and Wexford. If the suggestion made by Deputy Dillon and Deputy MacBride that the Air Corps be asked to help in fishery protection were adopted, our fishermen would feel that the Department of Defence was really sincere in trying to protect the industry on which they depend for a living.

Another matter I want to raise is the absence of any Army personnel from County Wexford. Possibly there is an explanation for that. I do not know what army strategy is in that respect but, if I am not mistaken, I do not think there is a single soldier in either County Wexford or County Wicklow. I raise this from a mercenary point of view.

Major de Valera

The answer probably is that there are not enough soldiers to go round and, if there were, people would object very strongly to the cost.

Brendán Mac Fheórais

The presence of a battalion or a company in a town is an asset to the town and especially to the business people of the town. Towns like Clonmel benefit from the fact that there is a company or a battalion of soldiers in the area. Apart from the fact that Wexford is a reasonably big town and a good training centre, there is the added fact that it is the nearest county and the nearest town to Great Britain. If the Army does not think it worth while to defend the County of Wexford and the town of Wexford, I wonder what counties should be protected and defended. I raise it merely from a mercenary point of view; I do not want to question the strategy of the Army. If there are not enough soldiers to go around, at least some of them should be situated in the maritime counties and in the port towns.

In conclusion, I want to impress uponthe Minister—I know work has been done in this respect—the urgency for doing something for those in receipt of disability pensions and special allowances. I feel that the Minister should have introduced a Bill to deal with the disability pensions and special allowances even before he introduced the Bill to increase the Army and I.R.A. pensions. These are people who are disabled and who, because of their financial circumstances, must receive assistance from the State. Many of those who have been catered for in the other Bill which I mentioned are people who are probably working and who are at least fit, but these unfortunate people have been forced to trail along behind them. I would urge, therefore, that the Minister introduce this Bill to increase disability pensions and special allowances as soon as possible and to have payment of the increases made at least from the same date on which the increases were made to Army pensioners.

Mr. McGrath

I agree with Deputy Corish that the Bill for disability pensions and special allowances should have been brought in before the Military Services Pensions Bill. Like the other Deputies who support the Bill I appeal to the Minister to have no delay in bringing in this measure because there is an urgent necessity for it. I know it will receive unanimous support. Of course, no matter what he brings in people will say it is not sufficient because those people are in urgent need of an increase. They are widows of old I.R.A. men, and I know of a few cases in Cork in which people are in need of greater assistance than they are getting at the moment.

There is one part of the Minister's statement in which I was very interested and that is where he stated that at the cost of £30,000 it was proposed to build a reserve stock of 2,500 tons of fuel oil at Haulbowline. I quote from column 1315, Volume 138, of the Official Debates of 6th May, 1953:—

"A reserve was not maintained up to the present owing to lack of accommodation for tankers at the jetty. The 21-foot jetty has now beencompleted, thus enabling tankers to deliver fuel oil into the main storage tanks at Haulbowline."

It seems to be common knowledge that these tanks were deteriorating due to the fact that they were not being filled for some years. I think the Minister should go a little further because if my memory serves me rightly the capacity of the tanks in Haulbowline is about 20,000 tons, and those tanks should be filled.

The 21-foot jetty at Haulbowline will enable an ordinary cross-Channel or coastline tanker, whatever they are called, to put oil into the tanks at Haulbowline but if we are to have transatlantic tankers to fill those tanks, it will be necessary to have a depth of 31 feet. In the Cork Harbour Board recently we were informed by the consulting engineer who constructed a jetty for the Board of Works, and by the harbour engineer that that 31-foot depth could be obtained by dredging at a very small cost of £3,000. According to those people we would get 31 feet at low spring tides and it would not be very expensive to maintain that depth by dredging.

Mr. Traynor

Is the Deputy suggesting that the dredging should be on a 21-foot jetty?

Mr. McGrath

I am suggesting that instead of constructing a 21-foot extension we should dredge to a depth of 31 feet so as to enable transatlantic tankers to discharge fuel into the tanks at Haulbowline. The people may say that this is not altogether a matter for defence but I am sure everybody realises that during the last war our best form of defence was the provision of the ships to bring into the country food for our people and the raw materials we were unable to provide at home and which are very necessary in any war. The Minister will agree with me, I am sure, that it is wrong to have all your eggs in one basket. It is not right to be depending on Dublin to store up all the bunkering we need and that Cork, being the gateway to the Atlantic, is the most desirable place for this storage.

The storage accommodation at Haulbowlineis reckoned to be the largest in the whole country and I would ask the Minister to go seriously into this question. We are aware that ships are by-passing Cobh at present and going over to England for bunkering. It is a big drawback to the Cork Dockyard Company that ships have to by-pass them to get repairs elsewhere and even when they have been repaired they have to go over to England to be bunkered.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would that be the responsibility of the Minister for Defence?

Mr. McGrath

I am pointing out that it is a very important part of defence and I am leading up to a very important aspect of this work. The Minister is now putting in the stock of oil for the sole purpose of fuelling our naval vessels and holding a reserve. I understand that across channel in the naval ports, commercial ships are fuelled by the Navy on a repayment basis.

I think that the Navy would be serving a very useful purpose if it provided these facilities for ships anxious to get fuel in the South of Ireland. It would be very useful in time of emergency to have such a facility. If people across channel can provide that facility in a few of the naval ports, I can see no reason why we should not be able to provide a similar service at present. I understand that if transatlantic tankers get facilities, you will get fuel at a very much lower price. I am saying this believing that none of the commercial companies are inclined to take up the tanks in Haulbowline for bunkering as before the war. I may be wrong in that but I understand that the refinery that was carried on in Haulbowline previous to the last war has been dismantled and that the plant has been exported. That refinery gave employment to about 60 people from Cobh and it is said, in Cork at any rate, that these commercial oil companies would not take over these tanks for bunkering purposes alone.

I appeal to the Minister to considerthis matter very carefully. He can discuss it with his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and they will find out that there is a good deal of truth in what I am saying as to what is happening in naval ports across the water and in regard to the facilities that can be provided there at very little expense.

There is another aspect of the Estimate to which I should like to draw the Minister's very serious attention. That is in regard to the housing of our soldiers. In Cork Corporation we have had applications for houses from a considerable number of soldiers who are living under very bad conditions. Some of them with five and six in family are compelled to live in one room. I do not think that is proper. We expect a soldier to give of his best and it is impossible for him to do so if he is not provided with proper living accommodation, both for himself and his family. We have married quarters in Collins Barracks in Cork which, I think, are a disgrace. The rooms are very small and very poor accommodation is provided in the kitchens or any of the other rooms. It is the same accommodation as was provided in the British time, the same accommodation as the British thought good enough for all our citizens in Cork and elsewhere. They thought that any kind of place was good enough.

I am referring principally to the congestion in the married quarters. It is impossible to rear healthy children in those places. Alongside Collins Barracks there is a field, the property of the Army, which I understand was acquired at one time with the intention of erecting houses on it. Why cannot the Department of Defence make some effort to build houses for soldiers in that field? I think that if that were done, it would be an added inducement to the young men to join the Army and it would make for more contentment and better service from the soldiers.

I referred some time ago to the fact that when a soldier contracts T.B. in the Army he is discharged without practically any notice. If a man is working for a local authority, hereceives full pay for the first six months of his illness and reduced pay for another six months. Surely the men we expect to defend this country and, if necessary to fight for it, are entitled to just as good conditions. I was glad to see that the Minister, for the first time, has decided to give married rates of pay to members of the F.C.A. while they are engaged on annual training. I believe that is a step in the right direction and while, like Deputy Collins and Deputy O'Sullivan, we may all deplore that our young men are not joining the F.C.A., with Deputy O'Sullivan I believe that when the call comes the present generation will prove to be as good as any generation that went before and will respond to that call.

We all know that one of the greatest assets the regular Army had on the outbreak of the last war was the fact that they had a Volunteer Force available to train officers and men. The members of this Volunteer Force very quickly stepped in and were able to take charge of large numbers of recruits. I heard old regular officers of the Army say that the Volunteer officers at the time were a credit and that the Army did not know what position they would have been in, were it not that they had that Volunteer Force. I think that the F.C.A. is just as necessary at the present time and that everything should be done to excite the interest of our young men, to entice them into the ranks and to continue in the ranks when they join. They should be facilitated in every way possible in regard to their annual training.

I should like to direct the Minister's attention to the desirability of taking on the Reserve officers discharged from the Army. Many of them, while they may be old in years, are young in spirit and in activity. They have a good deal of experience and in my opinion it would be an ideal arrangement if they were allowed to continue in the Reserve. I shall conclude by asking the Minister to do everything possible in his power to expedite the calculation of Army pensions.

General MacEoin

I must apologise for not being in my place this morningwhen this Vote was taken. A change has been made in the Order of Business, as I understood that consideration of the important measure, which was before the House last night, would be continued this morning and I made my arrangements accordingly. Deputy Collins has already covered some of the ground which I intended to explore on this Vote. I, therefore, do not intend to delay the House beyond making a few comments on the strength of the Army generally and the policy of the Government as signified by that strength and their propaganda. It is a well-known fact that a small efficient Army can develop rapidly if it has either a First Line Reserve or a Second Line Reserve, as the F.C.A. was intended to be. It is very disconcerting to find that notwithstanding all the invitations that have been issued and all the money that has been spent to get people to come into the Army, our First Line Reserve is breaking up and that there are 1,000 men not reporting for training.

That is a very serious matter but it is due to economic conditions more than anything else. When they come out of the Army, there is no employment for them. I regret to say that these trained soldiers, who have been brought to such a pitch of efficiency at considerable expense to the nation, cannot obtain suitable employment at home with the result that they have to emigrate. That is bad. I do not know whether or not the proposal put up by Deputy Corish would have any effect. He suggested that the Reserve grant should be increased. I think every effort should be made in that direction to see whether it would have the desired effect. If it does not, we then arrive at the stage where it would appear that we go to the trouble of training young fellows for the Army and the next thing they emigrate and we find we are really training people for another nation. That is not what was intended ever.

I am very disconcerted at the fall in the F.C.A. It is true, of course, that emigration has its toll there as well, and I am glad that the Minister has taken steps to improve the consideration that these men will get when theycome up for training and that there is a marriage allowance. I think we could raise the age limit a bit for both recruiting and the Reserve. I am not at all of the opinion that older men cannot render very good service. Mechanisation to-day is of such a high order that young men are not as essential as they were. The mechanisation in regard to tanks and that kind of thing makes it possible to utilise more aged men.

With regard to the question of cadets, I think that the time has come when a greater effort should be made to secure cadets from the ranks. I know that a certain number come up each year but, again, it would be an incentive to young fellows to join the Army if there was a reasonable chance that they would get a cadetship after a year or 18 months and if there was not a feeling against them more than for them. I think they should be encouraged. The Irish-speaking battalion was intended in the first instance to be a recruiting ground for these cadets. I think it would be in the interests of the Army and the country generally if we had the Irish-speaking battalion as a sort of training centre for potential officers and if the examination from the first battalion was the opening to commissioned rank for young fellows. I think that should be stressed more and greater use made of it. The small sums voted for the Reserve and the F.C.A. are very disconcerting.

The Deputy can apply himself to the problem just as easily as I can. I feel that there has been a considerable expenditure that could be avoided in regard to such things as transport. I do admit that for training purposes a substantial wastage of petrol and oil is necessary but I oftentimes think that it is not as necessary as it would appear to be.

I come now to the question of military service pensions. I am disappointed at the speed with which these cases are being dealt with. The delay is too great altogether. It is now 32 or 33 years since this service was rendered and it is an extraordinary state of affairs that we are still deciding who has and who has not service. That is a thing that must be ended at some stage because there will be people in the grave long before the decisions are come to. I am more than a little bit perturbed that where it is clear that people are entitled to a certificate of service and they die there is hardly any method by which that person's relatives, wife or children, can succeed if the certificate has not been granted.

When a person is dead, the children and the people connected with thatapplicant are more anxious than anybody else to have the service of their fathers or uncles as the case may be established. As we go on that aspect appears to be becoming more important. I think some steps should be taken by the Minister—it is an administrative step—to see to it that even where death has intervened while the case is pending, the case could be decided in favour of the applicant and that the benefit could be secured by the widow or close relatives of the claimant.

With regard to the delay in the hearing of cases, I think the Minister should at long last draw up or have the referee draw up rules of procedure for the claimants because people are still claiming who think they have the same service as somebody who has already qualified and yet they do not qualify when they come up with what they consider the same evidence. I think also that the feeling they have that there is unfair handling of the claims—I do not admit that—should be eliminated. I think the referee and the board give decisions on the evidence before them.

The claimants are still without any set of rules to assist them in making their claims. The result is that 29 years after the 1924 Act was passed there is no lawyer in the country who knows what the procedure is for fighting an applicant's claim. If the applicant is broken in health and not able to make his case there is nobody who can advise him. That is unreasonable. I hold no brief for lawyers. Some Deputies sneered at them yesterday, including the Minister for Finance. He was very unfair to lawyers because I think that the lawyers on both sides of the House are quite reasonable, but there is no reason why lawyers who are members of the House, or those outside of it, would not have an opportunity of assisting a claimant for a disability pension or a military service pension. I think they should have an opportunity of knowing the rules under which a claimant is entitled to a pension. It may be that I am a little bit selfish in the matter because if the lawyers knew what they had to do then a number of people like myself wouldbe relieved of a terrible lot of responsibility. We would not be pressed right, left and centre, as we are being pressed, to deal with the cases of persons claiming military service or disability pensions. If the rules were there somebody else could deal with them then.

Major de Valera

Cannot anyone read the Acts easily with the Orders?

General MacEoin

One can read them.

Major de Valera

I know there are amendments and all that kind of thing that make it extremely difficult.

General MacEoin

Why should there not be some set of rules that would enable a lawyer to read them? They have sets of rules in the courts for dealing with cases arising out of motor accidents and other kinds of accidents.

Most of the previous speakers deplored the decline in numbers of the F.C.A. Those of us who were members of the force during the emergency can easily realise that many people who flocked into that force during those days did so at tremendous inconvenience to themselves, their business and their avocation in life. Immediately the danger passed they were prepared to let the young men of the day carry on and they went back to their ordinary occupations. I am quite sure that if an emergency presented itself to-morrow, the very same thing would happen again as happened when the last emergency occurred; men would flock to join that force again. We should constantly bear in mind that it is too late to sharpen your sword when the drum beats for battle and, that being so, every effort should be made to form a well-organised, well-disciplined and well-trained nucleus force which would be ready for any emergency.

There are a number of points which might require too much detail to mention here now. It is no harm, however, to impress on the Minister at this stage some of the smaller things which, if attended to, are bound to have a decided effect on the ultimate success of the F.C.A. In the first place,I should say that the improper use of the F.C.A. uniform has a very adverse effect on discipline in the force generally. I mentioned this matter before. We found it in the past and we felt it our duty to try and prevent it from happening. If you are driving along a country road you may see a number of county council workers wearing portion of the F.C.A. uniform and you may meet a man coming from a bog attired in portion of an F.C.A. uniform. That gives the impression that there is a great lack of discipline or, if you like, a great lack of appreciation. Those of us who are keenly interested in the force and who are trying as best we can to make a success of it are perturbed about this wholesale improper use of the uniform which, I may say, is purchased by the taxpayers of this country and issued to those men. They, on their part, should honour that uniform and wear it with pride. Perhaps it is not easy to say what action should be taken in this connection but I might suggest that the Gardaí should be told to take action wherever possible to ensure that that ill-use of the F.C.A. uniform is not allowed.

Somebody mentioned that the area officers and the assistant area officers in charge of the F.C.A., who are really members of the regular Army, should instil a proper spirit into the F.C.A. It is all very well so say that, but there are certain matters in that connection which I should like to put before the Minister for his consideration. I do not know whether or not the position has changed in recent years but, in the past, those officers who were taken from the regular Army and put in charge of the F.C.A. as area officers or as assistant area officers were not, in many cases, treated as well as many of their fellow-officers who remained in the regular Army.

I do not think the position has improved. Even in the past, the travelling allowance granted to those people was certainly nothing commensurate with the work they had to do and, if I remember correctly, it was not on the same scale as that pertaining to their fellow-officers attached to barracks in the regular Army. These are small things but they should beattended to. I think that those officers on whose shoulders rests the responsibility of making a success of the F.C.A. should be treated particularly well— I should say infinitely better than their prototypes in the barracks and the regular Army.

Regular attendance at training each year is, perhaps, one method by which the F.C.A. can be made a really effective force. If we depend entirely on the system of afternoon training, and if the men do not turn up regularly it is impossible to have continuity in any particular line of training. The result is that you have haphazard training and the force is slow to attain even a moderate standard. If intensive annual courses were made compulsory in the regulations with regard to service then it would ensure that each member of the force would have to attain certain advanced knowledge in military training. Even if a man failed to turn up regularly to the barracks in his local district you could be certain that he had to attain a certain specialised knowledge which would equip him and fit him to be a good soldier if called upon at any future date. The training accorded to the various members of the community, during the emergency, even in the civilian defence services, will always be of great benefit to them if they should ever be called upon to assist in any way in the defence of their country. That can be said even of those who were members of the forces in this country during the emergency, who then emigrated and who have since returned. Their knowledge is never lost and will always be an asset so far as the defence of this country is concerned. In the same way, the military training given to F.C.A. personnel or even in the civilian defence forces is, I think, wise and prudent and certainly it is not money wasted.

Sometimes members of the F.C.A. have difficulty in fitting in their annual training with their employment. It is gratifying to note that most employers are prepared to co-operate with those members of their staffs who are also members of the F.C.A., in order that they may be able to fit in their trainingeach year. I regret, however, that the same cannot be said about the State Departments. It is sometimes with reluctance that a Department will agree to give a particular employee his holidays at a time suitable to enable him to go on an F.C.A. course. I had difficulty on some occasions and I failed on some occasions to get particular Departments to co-operate. The result was that officers of the force were unable to avail themselves of the courses that were being organised in their area in order to provide the training which they required to carry on the unit of which they were officers and charged with the responsibility of conducting. If the Departments of State do not fully co-operate in this respect then it is hard to expect private employers to be even as cooperative as they are. In view of that, it is certainly very gratifying that most private employers do go to some inconvenience to facilitate their employees who are members of the F.C.A. to participate in the annual training whenever they are anxious to do so.

Every Deputy who has spoken in this debate has advocated making the F.C.A. more attractive. I cannot give the figures at the moment but I think that the cost per day to the State of an F.C.A. soldier as compared with the cost per day to the State of a regular soldier shows, naturally, a very wide margin in favour of the F.C.A. member. Since we are all agreed that it is an indispensable link in our defence system and one of the most necessary we have, it would not be unwise to expend a little more in making the F.C.A. more attractive. The scheme whereby local training halls were erected has not been pressed forward, I think, as rapidly as it should have been.

One of the difficulties we found during the days of the emergency was to get a suitable premises at all in many centres. What was very often used was the local dance hall. You often found it had a maple floor where the F.C.A. boots were not wanted, and the owners invariably objected to the hall being used for anything but instruction of anon-manual type. Drill was not permitted and in the winter nights it was not possible to carry on drilling outside. Therefore, a suitable premises is one of the essentials if the F.C.A. is to be made more attractive and if proper facilities for training are to be provided. Failing that, there must be compulsory attendance at the local military centre, the barracks or training camp for a period in the year—for which, as it now applies, the appropriate rate of soldiers' pay is given during the training period. Both these things would be essential if the force is to be carried on.

While we make these remarks regarding the things that should be done in order to make this very commendable force as successful as we would like it to be, we should remember that it is not just as unsuccessful as some Deputies might try to point out. The F.C.A. at the moment is comprised— while casting no reflection on the personnel during the emergency—of a better type of young man. Though the numbers are smaller, they take a keen interest in the force. They came into it for the purpose of equipping themselves with the necessary military knowledge to carry on that force. That is an inevitable result of peace time, when the emergency has ended. There were a lot of people anxious to help during the emergency and they showed their anxiety to assist, in spite of whatever other occupations they may have had. They were anxious to take part in the defence of the country when they were needed, even though they were otherwise occupied. They found time to come into the F.C.A. and assist but those people did not intend to continue in peace time. The type of people we have now, however, have come in solely for the purpose of equipping themselves with the proper training and experience and I would say that they form, on the whole, a much sounder and better nucleus of a force than we had in the bigger force during the years of the emergency.

In conclusion, I would make reference to the question of corvettes being used for the purpose of teaching some navigation to our fishermen. These corvettes could be used when they come into ports like Killybegs, Galwayand other ports along the west coast, in order to give lessons and training to young fishermen locally, who are anxious to study navigation. They could be taken aboard and given the necessary instruction. I would like to see the corvettes used in that way and perhaps the Minister would give it a trial in some areas to see how it might work out. It certainly would be well worth the experiment.

Mr. A. Byrne

I will not delay the House, as most of what I wish to say has already been said by others. I want to join in a tribute to the Minister, to give him that meed of praise which he deserves and which no one will deny to him, for his endeavours to see that the Army is a healthy and contented body. He will not mind, therefore, if I mention a few grievances that might be remedied. One of these relates to military quarters for young married soldiers with one or two children, who have no chance at present of getting accommodation in the City of Dublin. They have to stay at home under conditions that are neither desirable nor suitable. Because of that, I would ask the Minister to extend the married quarters to accommodate at least another 500 or 600 married men, if possible. I would even make the suggestion that the Army itself might be put to the building of a suitable block of flats, near the barracks, for their own young soldiers, who have stepped into the vacancies created by the older soldiers going out.

I wish to congratulate the Minister and the Department generally on the type of young man that at present joins the Army. They are going in to take the place of those who have served so well in the past and those of whom the whole country is so proud. I implore the Minister to do something for the married soldier of whom I speak, either with one or two children or with no children. These latter are in a class which is not eligible for housing through the local authority, so we are told, as they have not reached the one or two children stage yet. I do not see why the Government should not take up a proposal of their own and build a suitable block of flats inthe City of Dublin near the barracks where those soldiers serve.

There is another matter to which I would like to draw attention. The Minister tried to remedy it and remedied it fairly well, a couple of years ago. It is the case of the old soldier, the man who has served 25 or even 28 years, who is in married quarters and who has nowhere to go. The housing conditions are appalling in the City of Dublin—I am speaking only for the City of Dublin—and the soldier whose time is up has nowhere to go, unless the Minister does as I suggest and builds a block of flats for serving soldiers and for those leaving the Army.

Again, the soldier who has given 25 years' service is awarded a pension. If he stays in the barracks—he has to stay, as he cannot get accommodation elsewhere—he will not get the pension. I know cases where soldiers' pensions have been withheld over two years, because they are still in the soldiers' quarters. When the time comes for him to get a pension, it is stopped completely until he clears out of the barracks. The barrack quarters were valued at 7/- a week, but the moment his time ceased and he did not get out, the rent was raised to 15/-. I would ask the Minister, knowing his very personal interest and his great regard for the men—I say that in all sincerity and I am sincere in paying that compliment to him—to do something, if he possibly can, to form a benevolent committee of some kind that would take an interest in these men, and see that their rent is not doubled, because they cannot get accommodation outside. It would be better still to make some arrangements for the provision of blocks of flats and, at the same time, to extend the married quarters for the young men joining the Army.

I am aware that the Minister is investigating the pay and allowances of soldiers and their wives, but it is a tragedy that, when a soldier dies after giving 20 years' service, his pay, allowances and everything else should come to an end. I feel that his widow should get at least a lump sum of a year's pay to help her over her difficulties.I have in mind the case of a certain soldier who broke down in health. The Dublin members of the Dáil will know the man I refer to. Without giving his name, his initials are R. C. When that man's health broke down—I think it was T.B.—he was given treatment in the Army hospital for six months and given his Army pay for that period, but, at the end of the period, his pay was stopped, leaving him and his family without anything, because it was decided that his illness was not due to Army service.

I feel that so long as he is in hospital or requires treatment as a serving soldier, he should get his full pay until he becomes entitled to a reasonable pension or allowance from some other source. There are domiciliary allowances available at present, but I do not know whether this man benefited in that regard or not. He was told that his ailment was not contracted in the Army—an old British Army phrase, and it is a pity that we should copy it. He produced medical certificates to show that he was healthy and strong when he entered the Army, but after serving some years in the Army he contracted the disease, was discharged and told he was not entitled to anything because the disease was not contracted due to Army service.

Another soldier has asked me to find out if it was possible to have the wording on discharges altered, when men are discharged medically unfit. This man was a candidate for a job, but the moment the words "medically unfit" on his discharge were seen, he ceased to be eligible for the job. I suggest that the discharge might be worded to the effect that "John So-and-so has served ten years in the Army and is discharged at the termination of that period, with an excellent character". It is a great pity that men who have spent a period in a sanatorium and who have left the sanatorium apparently cured should be debarred from getting employment because of these words.

I urge the Minister to continue his efforts to improve pay and conditions and, if possible, to provide pensions for the widows of soldiers. If that is not possible, the giving of a lumpsum might be considered. The Minister might also consider the point I have made with regard to accommodation for serving soldiers who cannot get houses and to extending the present inadequate married quarters. He might also be able to do something with regard to those soldiers whose pensions have been stopped when they remain in the barracks. The corporation took certain action a couple of years ago, at the Minister's particular request, and quite possibly the same could be done again.

Mr. O'Donnell

We Irish are a martial race, a romantic race and a fighting race, but it is a strange thing that, after practically 30 years of freedom in this part of the country, we cannot bring our Army up to the strength which is the accepted target. We should examine our consciences and try to find out what is wrong. We will have no difficulty in coming to the conclusion that the life of the soldier is not sufficiently attractive, financially and socially, to procure the required number of recruits. I personally believe that we are not making the pay of the soldier sufficiently attractive. I may be attacked from the other side for wishing to increase the cost by increasing the soldier's pay, but I hold that we could increase the soldier's pay by reducing the personnel.

I understand that the present target is 12,500 men. I think that a standing Army of 5,000 is sufficient for this country and we could reduce this Estimate of £8,045,000 considerably and, at the same time, make life attractive for 5,000 regular troops. I appeal to the Minister to give that suggestion his favourable and thoughtful consideration. If the personnel of the Army were reduced, we could afford to equip the remainder with the very latest in weapons and machinery.

Not the same board.

Mr. O'Donnell

I beg pardon—with the same chairman. I think it is most unfair to that chairman to ask him to hear again those cases which he has already turned down. It is very unfair to the chairman himself and very unfair to the applicants. As I said at the outset, I do not wish my criticism of the chairman to be misconstrued in any way. I have nothing but the greatest respect for him, but it is mostunfair to himself to ask him to turn round to hear those cases which he has already turned down. In many cases, he possibly was justified in turning down the applications on the grounds that there was not sufficient evidence. Additional evidence might since have been procured, but human nature is human nature and it is most difficult for us to go back on decisions which we have already made. I would like to think that the Minister has considered that point or, if not, that he will give it his serious consideration.

Again, there appears to be considerable dissatisfaction with the interpretation of "active service" within the meaning of the Act. I am told that the board on some occasions consider that only men taking part in actions by flying columns were on active service during that period. I think that is wrong. Unfortunately, all the veterans could not be in the flying columns. All soldiers cannot be in the front line. There were the men who took up guarding positions in the rear, there were the men who were responsible for the continuation of supplies, and there were the men responsible for keeping clear the line of retreat. They may not have been in the actual fight. It was through no fault of their own that they did not find themselves in the front line. The mere fact that they were there actually co-operating in an engagement should, in my opinion, be sufficient to enable the board to give them credit for active service within the meaning of the Act.

We know that the personnel of the flying columns took considerable risks. We also know that the ordinary members of a flying column could not hold a higher rank, say, than volunteer. A column could not be composed of commissioned officers. Very often, particularly in the beginning of the formation of the I.R.A., officers were elected by popular vote without any consideration for their fighting abilities. But, simply because they held that rank, they are now in receipt of higher pensions than the volunteers who actually took part in the engagements of the flying columns. Some method should be devised whereby rank should not count. Merit, and merit alone, shouldbe the governing factor in determining the amount of pension due to pre-Truce volunteers.

I know of the case of an applicant for a military service pension who had a very excellent pre-Truce record, a record vouched for by a Major-General of the National Army who was formerly O.C. of the First Northern Division of the Republican Army. He vouched for that man's pre-Truce record. He went further and gave a certificate that, after the Truce when he was a Major-General in the National Army, he was ambushed on one occasion and that one of the ambushing party was this applicant for a service pension. But, despite these certificates, that unfortunate applicant has been refused a pension and is now without redress.

I agree with Deputy MacEoin that there should be some other tribunal, a tribunal such as a court of justice, to which applicants such as this could go by way of appeal, because it is unfortunate that we politicians and we solicitors know when we have to advise these unfortunate men that they have no redress whatsoever. Something should be done by way of setting up machinery to enable them to appeal to some other court.

I appeal to the Minister to take into consideration the various matters which I have raised. I wish to congratulate him on the manner in which he has conducted the Department of which he is in charge. I should also like to congratulate him on the sympathetic manner in which he hears complaints from various Deputies on all sides of the House with regard to the grievances, be they petty or otherwise, of the personnel of the Army.

Mr. Desmond

Deputy O'Donnell raised a very important matter with regard to those who are considered not to be eligible for pensions under the Act. As Deputy O'Donnell said, perhaps some of them did not take the active part required by the Act in connection with flying columns. I know of men in south and south-west Cork, an area which was very prominent at that period, who volunteered and acted as scouts during the whole period, but because it has been ascertained thatthey did not take the active part required by the Act these unfortunate men have been deprived of something to which I believe they are entitled.

This is a matter which concerns not alone the present Minister but every Deputy. When we do speak of it, we are not unmindful that it is not a case of the Minister not wishing to do something which his predecessor did, but of there being a responsibility which so far has not been accepted by any Government. It would be most beneficial to these unfortunate men if their cases were reconsidered in the light of their present circumstances. It would certainly be a great day's work for us if we could, by unanimous agreement, provide that little help for them in the latter end of their lives to which, in my opinion, as well as in the opinion of every Deputy, they are entitled.

In connection with this Estimate there is one difficulty confronting some of us. When speaking on the Estimate last year I referred to the report of the Public Accounts Committee. Having such material in the hands of Deputies is a great advantage. There are many questions which we should like to have clarified. When we raise questions on any Estimate, very often we base our views on the fact that a comparison with the Estimates for previous years shows various discrepancies or differences. If Deputies could have the report of the Public Accounts Committee at an earlier stage and had an opportunity of reading the views of the secretaries of the different Departments on various matters as to the administration of the Departments, it might not be necessary for us to raise these matters in the House.

One thing which strikes me forcibly in connection with this Estimate is with regard to the number of privates, N.C.O.s and officers. If we take the figures for 1938 or for 1939 before the outbreak of the war and compare the number of officers, particularly the senior officers, in the Army as against the number at the present time, I think the comparison would be an interestingone. We know that during the war and during the period of emergency it was necessary because of the necessity for having a competent Army here to increase the number of officers. I have some doubts, however, as to the necessity for having the number of officers we have at the present time. I have some doubts as to whether or not the Army is top-heavy in relation to its officer personnel as compared with the pre-war period.

Major de Valera

What are the comparative figures?

Mr. Desmond

The Deputy holds a different view from the view I hold in this matter but I am now merely comparing figures and making it clear that I am not satisfied we require the present number of top-ranking Army officers. According to the figures published in the Book of Estimates, we have at the moment 1,270 Army officers, running from the top ranks right down to that of second lieutenant. We have 3,445 N.C.O.s. I admit corporals are included in that 3,445 but, if the history of Europe has taught us anything, it has taught us that a corporal is very often a better man than a general. Adding the officer personnel and the N.C.O.s one gets a round total of 4,715. The total number of privates is 7,514. I am earnestly seeking information as to whether it is necessary to have so many officers. I am not directing my remarks in this matter to the Minister only. I have no ulterior motive in raising the matter. I am anxious to have the position clarified and, if the Minister proves me wrong, I will accept the position, but until then I will not accept it.

Major de Valera

Has the Deputy the comparable figures for the year before the war?

Mr. Desmond

I am taking the year 1938. There are a few other items to which I would like to draw attention. I am glad to see that the provision made for "Other Ranks" shows an increase of nearly £200,000. That looks good on the face of it, but when one turns to sub-head A there appears to be a contradiction in regard to privates. For the 7,514 privates in our Army, andprivates are the foundation of every army, there was a provision last year of £920,138. The figure in the current financial year is £906,304. According to the sub-head, for the same number of privates there is a reduction of £13,834 in the wages paid. The Estimate does not show a decrease in numbers from last year. Possibly there is something wrong there and, if there is, this is the time to seek information on the matter. For corporals, there is a reduction in the sum of £312,733 provided last year to £310,880 in the current financial year. That is a reduction of £1,853. I am wondering what the explanation is. There is an over-all increase of almost £200,000 for N.C.O.s. and men. It is important that we should know whether or not the figures submitted to us have an interpretation which does not appear in the Book of Estimates.

All sections of the Army are important, including the F.C.A. I believe the success we hope to achieve will come from a small but well-paid regular Army.

Major de Valera

Would you support Deputy O'Donnell's contention that the size of the Army should be reduced?

Mr. Desmond

I will come to that presently. Deputies have on many occasions expressed the view that decentralisation is desirable. I am not suggesting decentralisation of the Army in particular, but I think Dublin is not the proper headquarters for the Navy. Deputy O'Donnell may possibly think Lough Swilly is the proper place. I might prefer Haulbowline. I am prepared, however, to go half-way and establish naval headquarters on the Shannon.

There is a service in which we should have decentralisation. There is a case where we could remove a service from Dublin without any serious difficulties being caused. It is vitally important that this problem be faced whatever inconvenience it may cause to the higher personnel. Because of the salaries they receive for serving this country, their duty is to be where theyshould be, based at one of the important ports in the Twenty-Six Counties.

I notice in one of these sub-heads an increase for mechanical transport of £49,125. It is true to say that the greater part of that increase is due to the purchase of new vehicles. Many of us who travel up and down the country would like to know why we see Army vehicles going around in all directions. I am not reflecting in any way on the drivers of these vehicles, but there is plenty of scope for tightening up in this regard. It is essential that we should provide the most up-to-date type of vehicles for the Army, but if wastage is occurring, as there seems to be in the use of this transport at the present time, then let that be examined in the light of present circumstances. Whether we like it or not, when people see lorries going around with one or two occupants and when they see top-ranking officers travelling a great number of miles, very often for very minor reasons, between here and certain outposts—of which I have a fair knowledge—they are entitled to say that money is being wasted.

Last year I mentioned, with a view to obtaining certain information—and it seems to be a recurring problem and not just one cropping up for the present Minister—the question of equipment and stores ordered but not delivered. I know we must of necessity allow a margin for any Department for the purchase of stores and other items. However, according to the Estimate submitted to us, the total for equipment and stores ordered within the last 12 months but not delivered amounted to £1,098,600. That, to my mind, is too much of a margin to carry over. It may be said that there are certain delays about delivery, but no businessman or trader—and we are entitled to say that even the various Departments of State must run their affairs in a business-like manner—would put a large amount of money aside until he knew that within a given period it would be called on. On many occasions within the last five years since I became a member of this House, Supplementary Estimates have been introduced and that will probably continue as long as it is necessary to provide through that method, these extraamounts, but if we are told that a carry-over of £1,098,600 was provided 12 months ago but not yet called on by one particular Department, I feel that is a matter that should be considered more closely.

As I said at the outset, our difficulty, at least with some of us, is that the valuable information that was made available to us through the report of the Public Accounts Committee became stale because a couple of years had elapsed before we were able to compare what had happened as against what the current position is. It is because of that ignorance—let it be said even in a case of inquiry—that our approach to this Estimate is in the nature of a desire to have these matters properly clarified, not only as far as the members here are concerned, but also from the point of view of the public.

There is another point on which I seek information, which we can get ourselves at times. There is a system of contracting for renewals or for building. While it is essential that a proper check be provided as regards details in connection with various materials used, may I inquire if it is true that while that system of detailed accounts of materials, etc., to be provided is operated up to a certain margin, when it goes to larger works costing thousands of pounds the details are dispensed with and lump sums are allowed? If there is a possibility of any discrepancy arising, surely the larger the contract the greater the opportunity for a person, should he feel that way inclined, to utilise such a weak system for his own benefit. If there is such a thorough check which, as I say, is essential on materials, etc.,in connection with small jobs that should proceed all along the line. That same system should operate on even a more efficient basis in connection with larger contracts.

I mentioned on a few occasions the difficulties of some of the Army personnel; again, I am speaking for the men of the lower ranks. Down in the South of Ireland some of those men who are married are not all in the happy position of having married quarters. They live in outside areas and some of them have to travel to their work a distance of 14 to 21 miles. I know many members of the present Army living near the village of Crosshaven, where I come from, who have to travel to Cork every day, and more of them further on to Ballincollig. The travelling expenses of these men are very high, possibly amounting to over £1 a week, which is a big draw on their wages. We know, of course, that if they are not in the position of being able to stay in married quarters they are receiving other family benefits; I am not detracting from that in the least, but if they have to pay £1 a week out of their wages for travelling it is a great hardship on them. I suggest it should be possible to provide Army transport and that these men should defray the petrol cost, whatever it may be, between them, so that the Army need not be at a loss financially. This would obviate the necessity for their having to pay such a large amount out of their present pay for travelling. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m., until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 27th May, 1953.

Dáil Éireann debate - Friday, 22 May 1953