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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 Nov 1953

Vol. 142 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Wireless Broadcasting.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £169,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1954, for Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926), including Public Concerts.

Deputies will have observed from the published Book of Estimates that the Wireless Broadcasting Estimate is presented this year in a form considerably different from what it was last year and in previous years. Before I deal with the amount provided in it, I should like to give the House the reasons for the change in the form. In speaking on a Supplementary Estimate for Wireless Broadcasting in November, 1952, I explained that a fundamental change was being made in the broadcasting organisation from the 1st January, 1953, by the appointment of a comhairle of five persons who would advise the Minister and take the executive responsibility for broadcasting that had been exercised up to then by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I found that all Parties in the House were enthusiastic about removing broadcasting from the position of a sub-Department of the Post Office operated on strictly Civil Service lines.

The only criticism that was made was that we were not going far enough, and that it would be better to establish an independent corporation on the lines of the B.B.C. The Government did not favour making such a drastic change, at least in one step, but I was gratified that the House was so fully on my side in my proposal to get away from the type of control of broadcasting and operation that had been in existence here since 1926. I stated also then that, as part of the reorganisation, Iproposed, with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance and the Government, to simplify broadcasting financial procedure, and I indicated that with that object in view consideration was being given to the form of the Estimate to bring it more in line with the kind of financial statement put before Parliaments in countries where broadcasting was operated by statutory corporations. That is the reason for reducing the number of sub-heads from 11 to three and omitting many of the details that had hitherto been given.

Control of the expenditure has not been lessened in any way by reason of the new format, and auditors and the Public Accounts Committee can exercise the closest check on every item of broadcasting expenditure. Not a penny can be spent unless it is strictly on the business of broadcasting within the ambit of the legislation which governs the establishment and running of the service. I should mention that the Public Accounts Committee was consulted in regard to the new form of the Estimate, as we wished to be very careful that it would have the approval of the committee on behalf of the Dáil. Having regard to the enthusiasm expressed in the House in November last for an independent type of broadcasting organisation, I have no doubt that Deputies will fully approve of the simplification of the Estimate.

Concurrently with the change in the form of the Estimate the Minister for Finance gave the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs wide general sanctions in regard to broadcasting expenditure without prescribing overriding limits in various categories except as regards staff. The Minister for Finance has certain legal responsibilities in regard to Civil Service staffing, but here again he has allowed as much latitude to broadcasting as his statutory liabilities permit.

Under the new reorganisation the comhairle will know in advance the order of the sum it will have at its disposal for some time to come. This was a most desirable innovation. The arrangement approved by the Government is that for its day-to-day operations the broadcasting service will get an amount equal to the total of thelicence and sponsored programme receipts. The receipts estimated from these two sources for 1953-54 are £429,000 as will be seen from the second page of the Estimate. The sum it is proposed to provide, under the "Expenses of Broadcasting" is £432,000. The difference of £3,000 between the two sums represents the cost of some staff engaged on the administrative work of broadcasting in the secretary's office of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs who were transfered to Radio Éireann from the 1st January, 1953, as a first step in the amalgamation of the broadcasting organisation into a single unit.

The licence and sponsored programme fees will not cover the cost of any large equipment required in the way of engineering apparatus or musical instruments, and the provision for equipment will continue in effect to be a subsidy. The subsidy is shown under sub-head B. It amounts this year to £145,000. This exceptionally large sum is due to the inclusion of the cost of three transmitters—one to replace the powerful 100 Kw. transmitter at Athlone, which is now absolete, and two to replace the worn-out transmitters at Dublin and Cork. The transmitters account for £115,000 of the total sum.

In addition to the sum provided in the Broadcasting Vote itself, a number of other Departments have always done work for broadcasting and have borne the cost on their own Votes. A list of these Departments, with the amounts they estimate to expend on broadcasting work during the current year, is shown on page two of the Estimate. This expenditure will also continue to be provided, as in the past, as a subsidy for broadcasting. The Department which incurs the largest expenditure under this heading is, of course, the Post Office, which collects the licence fees throughout the country at the post offices and carries out inspections in connection with the taking out of the licences. The cost of buildings and reconstruction will continue to be borne on the Vote for Public Works and Buildings.

The salaries of the comhairle and of the principal officers of the broadcastingstation are shown in Part III of the Estimate, but the cost of the other staff is shown in a bulk sum.

Before I report further on progress, may I report again the objectives we seek in Radio Éireann so difficult to achieve in a single programme?

The primary purpose of Radio Éireann is to provide entertainment in an Irish setting to suit every taste to be found in our community; from our own and foreign dance music to classical compositions; from Irish and universal variety shows to debates in Irish and English on Irish and universal themes; from traditional music and songs from the four provinces of Ireland in Irish and English to operas and songs in every language from abroad.

As in the case of all good broadcasting institutions abroad, the programme is weighted to provide palatable, cultural entertainment, with an emphasis on our own creative and traditional culture and possibly of a somewhat higher standard than we would expect to be asked for by purely "popular" demand. As I said before I know that light music would head the list here as in other places in the collated results of any listener research investigation.

The object of any good radio service should be to intermingle light programmes with more serious items requiring a greater degree of concentration in such a manner that, at least a good proportion of listeners will leave the radio on before the lighter item commences and after it terminates and can, we hope, be induced to enjoy a varied programme. The quality of the more serious items must be of the very highest to achieve this result.

The House will be interested in hearing something about the programme developments that have taken place since January 1st. In a broadcasting station big changes are not made every day and every month.

Improvement is brought about more gradually by numerous small changes and by persistent attention to the raising of the quality of the programmes. Under the comhairle, however, a number of fairly important changes have been carried out.

One of the first things the comhairle authorised was the addition of some expert staff for the better handling of programmes where there was a severe lack of such qualified manpower. A talks producer, sports officer, head of scriptwriters, a second assistant music director and extra news staff have been employed. We have also more recently added an assistant conductor and a new full-time choir of ten singers. For the better technical balance of the output from the studios, a number of balance and control officers have been engaged.

In accordance with the desire of the Government, the comhairle has also tackled the amalgamation of broadcasting in a single administrative unit. The administrative, accounting and other work was, until the reorganisation was brought into effect, carried out in the various branches of the Post Office. Completely new administrative and accounting sections have now been set up in the broadcasting station. The question of the integration and transfer to station control of the engineering personnel, which is still, and always has been, under the control of the Post Office engineer-in-chief, is at present being examined. There has been a reorganisation of some of the programme departments within the station so that programmes in English and Irish can be prepared to greater advantage.

The House may now be interested if I refer briefly to a number of programme developments, some of them small and others more substantial, but all of which have, I believe, tended to raise quality and to give better finish to the Radio Éireann output.

As regards the news, a small change that will, I am sure, remove irritation, is that the bulletins now begin and end at even times, that is, at the hours, half-hours or quarter-hours—all the other programmes of a more or less permanent nature are also started at regular times and on fixed days of the week. Announcements of examinations and such matters have been cut out of the time devoted to the news. It is generally recognised that it is goodradio practice that news bulletins should not be long—not more than a quarter of an hour—but the time should be devoted to news and not to all sorts of small notifications.

These are provided for in a separate ten minutes period every day. Brief items of local news from all over the country have been introduced into the bulletins and a large organisation of local correspondents has been built up to supply these items. Topical talks are given after the 1.30 p.m. bulletin. Detailed weather forecasts for farmers and fishermen, which have often been asked for in the House, are now broadcast. Prices are also reported for the Dublin fish market in the same way as the cattle market prices have been given for a long time.

Last year a special feature was introduced to cover the week in the Oireachtas, which has now been followed up by a nightly report at 11 p.m. on each night on which the Dáil sits. This is in the hands of capable journalists who have been brought on to the staff of Radio Éireann.

In talks and discussion programmes, teams have continued to discuss a wide variety of matter of current interest. I am glad to say that these virile arguments on subjects which are for the most part controversial are now accepted as it was intended they should be—not as Government pronouncements from a State broadcasting station, but as the free expression of opinion by persons selected solely for their competence to bring out the points for and against proposals that are of general and sometimes vital interest to the public. In the discussions criticism is often made of State Departments, of some sections of the community, and of the Government itself. Such criticism, I am glad to say, is generally accepted as reflecting the many points of view that exist on matters that affect the lives of the people.

In connection with the Budget this year, talks were broadcast by the Minister for Finance and the representatives of the Fine Gael Party and Labour Party. We would have liked to be able to include talks by representativesof the other Parties but from the point of view of broadcasting interest the number had to be limited. Probably next year it might be possible by arrangements among the Parties to give an opportunity to the small Parties to have their voices heard. A series of talks by representatives of the Parties at a suitable time of the year would be of great interest for listeners; so would a number of talks immediately before a general election. The broadcasting authorities would be pleased to give facilities to the Parties for such series of talks if there is general support among the Parties for them.

We have recently had series of talks on world affairs, both in English and in Irish, by well-known speakers competent in their subject, and these are continuing. We have planned also a comprehensive series of lectures reflecting the best in contemporary Irish scholarship. This series, entitled the Thomas Davis lectures, began in September with six talks on early Irish society, given by Dr. Myles Dillon and other experts from the Institute of Advanced Studies. "Question Time" the old favourite, is back again, with many additions to test the knowledge of young and old. A new weekly programme, "What's on your Mind?" is touring the country bringing discussions by local speakers and local audiences of whatever topics they care to raise. It recently had a session in London.

Talks in Irish are now given before broadcasts of big matches—Gaelic football, Hurling, Rugby football, and Soccer. A new magazine programme for women, "Between Ourselves" and a new magazine programme for country listeners, "Country Journal," are being broadcast weekly. Variety programmes such as "Beginners Please" and "The Real Blarney" have come from Cork, Waterford and Limerick. In recognition of the popular taste for Irish dance music, a new one-hour céilí programme of music, story and song has been started under the title "Take the Floor."

On the drama side arrangements were made to bring guest producersand actors from abroad and some of them have already come and done work for us. For example we had Mr. Peter Watts, B.B.C. producer to direct three plays in July. The casts included well-known British radio stars, as well as Hilton Edwards and Ronald Ibbs. Denis Johnston, the distinguished Irish writer now working in America, produced a new version of "The Dreaming Dust", his play about Dean Swift, in August. W.R. Rodgers, the Ulster poet who is well known in radio through his work with the B.B.C., is writing a programme for production this year. Siobhán McKenna has broadcast for us in her own version of St. Joan in Irish and is to perform it also in English. The Arts Theatre, Belfast, has also done a production for Radio Éireann. Competitions for drama have been held and the writing of original radio plays is having notable success. A number of other developments on the drama side have been planned.

I shall now make a short reference to the music side of the station's activities. As before, the Symphony Orchestra has given twice weekly concerts in the Phoenix Hall under guest conductors and with soloists from home and abroad and the orchestra has also taken part in operatic and other productions in conjunction with outside societies. The most notable venture in which the Radio Éireann Orchestra co-operated was in the season of the Dublin Grand Opera Society which brought to Dublin the Munich State Opera and an Italian company of singers. The orchestra has also continued the practice of giving provincial concerts. Because of its increasing commitments and of the primary duty of providing symphony music from the studios for the listeners it will probably be necessary to tighten up the arrangements for the visits of the orchestra to the country.

What the director has in mind is that instead of having concerts fixed in a haphazard way as applications are received from local musical societies the orchestra will be made available for a tour of perhaps a fortnight at a time to be selected by the broadcasting authorities. Opportunitywill be given to the local bodies as far as practicable to have concerts in their towns included in the tour. This will also apply to the light orchestra.

As I announced recently, Mr. Milan Horvat has been engaged for a three year's period as conductor of the orchestra. I look forward with great hope to the work Mr. Horvat will do here in the building up of the orchestra to enable it to take its place as a combination of international standard. As I mentioned earlier, we have also appointed a young Irish assistant conductor, Mr. Eimear Ó Broin. After taking his music degree in university college and attending the summer school of music held here under the auspices of the Department of Education, Mr. Ó Broin studied in the Paris Conservatoire where last year he won first place in the final examination in orchestral conducting in the foreign section. This competition was open to young conductors from all over the world and it was a high distinction for an Irishman to gain the premier award. Mr. Ó Broin subsequently studied the conducting of opera and ballet at the Munich State Opera. I am sure he will derive further great benefit from working under Milan Horvat here.

In connection with the symphony orchestra I wish to refer to the series of promenade concerts held in the Gaiety in the spring of this year, and the autumn series being given at present. We have audiences in Dublin for the more serious types of works by the masters but there is a still larger demand for works which are somewhat lighter. It was to satisfy that demand that the proms were arranged. They have been a huge success and every concert was played to a full house. By the way, prom is, of course, a borrowed title. If Deputies, or their friends, could give us a native title, preferably an Irish title, which would convey the meaning of the proms to the imagination, we would be grateful. We have been unable to find a title that would preserve the idea.

The light orchestra, under its conductor, Dermot O'Hara, is, I know, amost popular music combination. A special tribute was paid to it here by Deputy Corish on the occasion of the Supplementary Broadcasting Estimate. The orchestra continues to give concerts from the studio of light classical music, Irish dance music and Irish folk music, and it provides music for variety programmes. As in last year, it has given concerts throughout the country and these have generally been well attended. Lunch-time concerts of Irish music have been performed by the light orchestra for half an hour each Sunday from 1.0 to 1.30.

In connection with the performances of Irish music, I would like to mention specially the question of arrangements. It used to be said that all the Irish music that had been orchestrated could be play in half an hour. That was probably a slight exaggeration, but it is undoubtedly the case that there is a sad deficiency in the amount of such music available to keep the programmes of the light orchestra going throughout the year without monotonous repetition. Orchestration of Irish music calls for considerable skill and artistry. In addition to musical competence, the arranger needs to have the tradition of Irish music in his blood. There are a few outstanding exceptions of persons outside Ireland who can arrange Irish music, or perhaps the music of any nation, but as a general rule the arrangements could be done better by an Irishman if he had the requisite skill.

I am glad to say that the position about arrangements has improved very considerably recently. A number of Irish musicians, including Réamonn Friel, A.J. Potter, Walter Beckett and Éamonn Ó Gallchobhair, are devoting a good deal of time to making arrangements for the orchestra, and quite a number of orchestrations have been made since the 1st January, of dance music, traditional airs for orchestra and soloist and for orchestra and choir. An immense amount of arrangement work remains to be done. It is a work that will be of lasting benefit to broadcasting and to our native music, and we are prepared to spend much more money on it than we have been spending.

Finance need not be a difficulty in connection with this important contribution to Irish music. The problem is that there are too few persons capable of doing the work and that those who are doing it have not as much time to spare for it as we, and they, would like. I should like to express my thanks to the authorities of the Folklore Commission for offering to place the large amount of music material held by the commission at the disposal of broadcasting for the purpose of orchestration.

As I mentioned briefly earlier, we have established a full-time choir of ten voices. We have had a part-time choir of 24 persons for some years. They have done excellent work, but it is more satisfactory to have a group who can devote their whole time to broadcasting. A Radio Éireann Choral Society of approximately 80 voices has also been formed. This large group will give two or three concerts with the symphony orchestra each year. I should like to pay a tribute here to the diligence and enthusiasm which I understand this voluntary society is bringing to its choral work. It requires persistence and interest to a high degree for people who are working all day to carry out long rehearsals in the evening. I wish the choral society every success.

I must speak of developments in connection with the orchestras. As I have already told the House, a permanent conductor and an assistant Irish conductor have been appointed. I need not expatiate on their qualities. It will be sufficient to say that the principal conductor has been invited to conduct the London and Paris Symphony Orchestras and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra while the Irish assistant conductor has just returned from guest conducting in Scandinavia. Wherever he went, Irish music was played and in Oslo the broadcasting station received messages from listeners asking for more Irish music. I hope that the conductors will introduce Irish music on a scale never before possible whenever they fulfil occasional foreign engagements.

Last year there was considerable discussion about the provision of orchestralplayers. In a small country such as this the Radio Éireann orchestras must inevitably set the whole standard of instrumental music in the country and the two orchestras become the national orchestras for Ireland—the 32 Counties.

In our music development we are relatively where England was in 1920, and of this we need not be ashamed because of very tardy but definite progress now evident on all sides. The future of this country depends so much on the abandonment of the avoidably mediocre in our national life that for our own advancement high standards must be set in every sphere to which we may aspire. In respect of Irish and symphonic music both for enhancing our cultural heritage and for the advancement of the tourist industry the variety and quality of Radio Éireann performances must enormously improve since broadcasting affects all music.

I am convinced that the future of Ar Tóstal and all Irish festivals depends on being able to offer the outside world an international forum for music and drama in which we provide exemplary entertainment and that we must build a concert hall and assembly rooms as a matter of vital national cold-blooded commercial interest as well as for the entertainment and culture of our own people. I understand that considerable progress may have been made in regard to this essential aspect of our civilisation.

The Dublin Orchestral Players, I trust, will continue to encourage some of their enthusiastic amateur players to acquire concert standard. Let me repeat, in Irish Boston, 160,000 tickets are bought every year for the popular classical concerts in a period of three months. In terms of greater Dublin, 50,000 people should attend concerts here apart from tourists if we are to enjoy music in proportionate degree. That is the target for our achievement, and Radio Éireann will inevitably play the major part in this development.

May I also observe that the crowds who come to the proms are in the majority ordinary people, not highbrows, and it is well for us to realise that symphony and operatic music arebecoming popular in the way they have always been in Germany, France and Italy. They are enjoyed by the people as a whole.

The director of music and the new conductor have been assessing the general position of both orchestras, while I have conferred with the examiners at Dublin Feiseanna of recent years, where the prize-winning standard is not, naturally, up to concert orchestra pitch, save very exceptionally. Finally, an audition has been held for all classes of instruments at which candidates were appointed, or told to continue their studies or informed that their standard was too much below the orchestras requirements to be given any special advice. The result of all these inquiries is that the director of music and the conductor can have the responsibility for bringing the orchestras to higher levels of performances in the light of the following facts and subject to certain general conditions.

All Irish players of European concert standard, such as that prescribed by, for example, the Danish radio orchestra, have been offered positions at the annual audition which has taken place, and there will be little chance of a surplus of talent but rather for years a scarcity of players. Promising players are being encouraged and a student orchestra will be formed. We can readily absorb all the talent that is likely to come forward in the next few years. No permanent musician whose standard remains unaltered will be dismissed. This will alleviate the fears of those who dislike the hardship that comes to players not accustomed to the intense movement taking place in the foreign musical world.

The recruitment of the orchestra, apart from those appointed as a result of annual auditions, is subject to the following limitations, which are in the nature of a résumé of the available musical talent here. In the violin class there are bright hopes. The comhairle will appoint six Irish violinists to the orchestra on a half-time basis while they continue their studies, an innovation unknown in national orchestracircles in Europe. There are a few other pupils of promise still at an early stage of instruction. In regard to the viola and 'cello classes, one viola player has been appointed, one shows promise. No 'cellist was found. There is an absolute dearth of these players of concert standard who wish to join the orchestras. No double bass players offer themselves. One pupil is studying under one of our musicians.

In regard to the seven main wind instruments, there are no concert standard instructors for two and for all these seven instruments there are 10 pupils taking concert standard instruction at the Academy of Music of whom six have been awarded scholarships. In fact, this country, in respect of wind instruments, is now in the same position as other countries in the twenties. As a result, all over Europe wind instrument players are found to be foreign or naturalised in the last twenty years. The number of pupils is, of course, grossly inadequate. At the audition, it was found possible to appoint one clarinet player. One of the more famous of our judges at a Feis said to me: "I have just completed my work at this Feis. I have two main impressions. There is plenty of musical talent in Ireland in respect of piano and violin, but very few people are studying wind instruments for playing in a symphony orchestra. I encourage them all but many of them do not realise the amount of study required to play well in an orchestra, sometimes three years, even five years after reaching the prize winning standard." It is obvious from speaking with the organisers of Feiseanna that competition is keen for singing, piano and violin. In respect of all other instruments there are a few aspirants. In fact, at two recent Dublin Feiseanna only 12 first and second prizes were awarded in respect of 30 prizes offered in the senior, intermediate and open grades for all orchestral instruments, excluding piano and violin.

Summing up the position, the director of music is encouraging Irish musicians to complete their studies. He will absorb all the native talent available but will have to haverecourse to foreign players when necessary, a practice now accepted as inevitable in countries such as Switzerland and Sweden. I hope there will be more musicians capable of giving advanced instruction; and that there will be more opportunities for sending on special occasions first-class musicians to assist and inspire the smaller amateur orchestras in Cork, Galway and elsewhere.

As regards equipment, the largest items are, of course, the new transmitters to which I have already referred. In addition, broadcasting has, for the first time, got an organ for its own use—a Campton Electrone. We are grateful to the churches and cinemas for providing for our organ music up to now. The acoustics are not, however, in all cases up to broadcasting needs in churches and other buildings and, besides, an organ is needed for broadcasting for other purposes than for full recitals. The organ is, therefore, a valuable addition to broadcasting facilities.

Among the smaller items of equipment I might mention that it is proposed to get a very high frequency apparatus which will enable commentaries to be given with facility on sports where the competitors move from place to place—golf, boat races, etc. The commentaries can be sent by very short wave radio to a receiving unit for transmission by line to the studio or for recording on the spot. The equipment can also be used for broadcasts from islands or other places from which broadcasts could not otherwise be done. Wé have also got sets of an ingeniously built small tape recording unit which was recently developed. The apparatus can easily be carried by a radio reporter, and he can use it anywhere he can go himself —for instance, for taking interviews in a crowded meeting, or in an aeroplane in flight.

I have reappointed the broadcasting advisory committee, in accordance with the provisions of the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1926, that such a committee should be set up to advise the Minister. I hope and believe that the work of this honorary committeewill be as valuable to broadcasting as it has been in the past. The new comhairle is concerned to a considerable extent with the framing of policy and with executive decisions. The advisory committee will in a broad way represent listeners and will be able to make general recommendations to the Minister on the needs of the various sections of the community. I have appointed Séamus Ó Braonáin, former director of broadcasting, as chairman of the advisory committee for the next two years' period.

For the first time in the history of broadcasting here we have carried out a formal inquiry for the purpose of eliciting the tastes and habits of listeners and finding out when they listen and what they do and what they do not like in radio programmes. The brunt of the organisation of this inquiry fell on the Director of Statistics, Dr. Geary, and on the staff of the Central Statistics Office; the staffs of the post offices throughout the country carried out the field work. The inquiry was done with expedition and efficiency and we are most grateful to Dr. Geary and his officials and to the Post Office officials who undertook the work for us.

The result of this inquiry will not be published for reasons that are obvious. Dramatic producers do not publish figures recording the volume of applause for each member of their casts, nor does a music impresario list the number of tickets sold to people listening to a soprano and a tenor. But I will say this: The absolutely overwhelming majority of the Irish people with wireless sets listen to Radio Éireann every day in the year, and the percentage enjoying the more serious cultural and educational programmes is not unsatisfactory.

At the same time the inquiry also shows a tremendous interest in light music of American origin coming from abroad. The moral of the report is Radio Éireann will have to make a supreme effort to popularise and modernise what is Irish if national distinctions are to be preserved.

I have mentioned in public that one of the aims of Comhairle Radio Éireann and the director was to makean increase in the total daily broadcasting time. For some months past the station has been kept open up to 11.15 p.m. on the days the Dáil sat to give a summary of the proceedings. I am glad to say that beginning on November the 1st there has been a permanent opening up to 11.30 p.m. instead of the normal time of 11 p.m. on every night of the week.

Incidentally, I should mention that this is the period which has been placed well at the top of the list in the recent listener inquiry as the particular half-hour extension listeners would prefer. Plans have also been completed to open the station permanently for a continuous period on Sundays from 1 p.m. to 11.30 p.m. That will be a total extension of three hours on Sunday, from 2.30 p.m. to 5.30 p.m. Since the 2nd August the station has been kept open up to 3 o'clock instead of 2.30 as an instalment of the additional period.

May I say in connection with television, that I regard television as inevitable in the future, but in view of considerable comment in various circles I would like to make some observations on television in relation to this country.

Many rumours had been circulated in regard to the prospects for television about which no Government decision had been taken, and I desire to make the following observations:—

1. The Government has made no decision as yet on the future of television but its coming is inevitable, like the motor-car.

2. The range of foreign television over the Twenty-Six Counties is unlikely to extend in the next few years, so as to by itself compel a decision on home television.

3. In England and the United States of America the sale of radio sets remains very high (in the United States of America 10,000,000 radio to 11,000,000 television sets in one year). A demand for sound broadcasting would continue because of family preferences in the home even if television comes.

4. Television was the greatest visualpropaganda force for good or evil in the modern world. Never will I recommend to the Government television that is not absolutely first-class and directed towards the preservation of the national culture as well as for entertainment purposes. Second-rate television exceeds third-rate films in vulgarity.

5. Whatever the organisation set up for television may be, all-Ireland reception will be essential and considerable experimentation will be necessary.

6. Whatever the eventual plan for television the cost will be high if the programme is to be first-class.

7. Small countries in Europe are still experimenting. The conventions in regard to an exchange of programmes and provision of first-class telefilms and film records of plays, talks and features for universal use are in a state of flux, present material available being utterly inadequate. The position will probably alter radically in a few years and probably for the better. The same observations apply to colour television. Nothing will be gained by hasty decisions.

8. If the job is to be well done, a number of years will elapse before the full network could be available. Ample information and warning will be given by the Government a considerable time in advance of any installation should the heavy subsidies be considered possible and television in general considered desirable.

I referred briefly to the question of a second programme on the Supplementary Estimate in November last and I indicated that there could possibly be some separate transmissions from Dublin and Cork when the new transmitters had been installed. The second programme is a matter of some magnitude and complexity and I have nothing further to report to the House at this stage. I also gave my views to the House in November on the need for an up-to-date radio headquarters and I am leaving the matter at that for the present. I should say, however, that the recent increase of 5/- in the licence fee provided only for the increase in expenses of broadcastingthat had taken place over a number of years and for such improvements as are taking place at present or are envisaged in the near future.

I cannot now say how a radio building or a complete second programme would be financed. If broadcasting itself had to make any contribution to them the new licence fee of 17/6 would not meet the cost. This is not, however, a matter of immediate consequence for listeners, as these projects will not come to fruition for some considerable time.

I have now given the Dáil an account of the work of the broadcasting station under its new management. I am fully satisfied that the bringing of broadcasting to a sort of half-way house between ordinary Civil Service and independent statutory organisation type of operation—which was obviously in the nature of an experiment—has proved to be an outstanding success. As Minister, I have found it possible to step out of the broadcasting picture at a much earlier date than I thought possible except, of course, for such matters as the Minister and Government must continue to be responsible, and are responsible for, where broadcasting is carried out by corporations. I now leave the ordinary operations of broadcasting to the comhairle and the director and I do so with every confidence. We have now few complaints of unfairness or lack of balance in the news, and it seems to be accepted that the broadcasting authorities are giving the news in a disinterested way—the criterion being the value of the news as general interest for listeners. In matters such as Dáil questions, Deputies have accepted the spirit of the reorganisation and are not to any large extent insisting on their rights to put questions about matters concerning the day-to-day working of the station.

People are slow to praise openly any State activity, direct or indirect, but I would be lacking any kind of political and social conscience if I did not record in the annals of this House the great number of messages I have received from all over Ireland recognising the improvement in the programmes.

Credit must go first to the directorwho in a short space of time has justified my faith in his abilities and above all my conviction that he never lost touch with this country and would understand our virtues, prejudices and frailties.

The comhairle has shown a fine sense of responsibility and as a team clearly understand the more idealistic function of broadcasting.

I would like to thank the staff of broadcasting who have borne the brunt of the work under conditions which were not ideal because of some shortage of personnel and insufficient and not entirely suitable accommodation. I welcome the new members of the staff who have been selected because of their qualifications for the jobs into which they have been put. I am confident they will bring their enthusiasm and ability to bear on the many broadcasting jobs which have to be done in a minimum of time and with a maximum of efficiency and will help their more experienced colleagues in making the machine work with less flurry in the whole organisation and with more pleasure for our listeners.

I move that the Estimate be referred back. I am doing so as a protest against some of the things that happened in the last 12 months. While I admit that the Minister has tried to cater for the tastes of listeners in the rural areas, I am satisfied that no matter what changes are made in the personnel of the committee their tastes will be more in keeping with those of a few people in Dublin.

The Minister stated on one occasion that he intended to organise an orchestra which would be one of the best in the world. That is a good thing to have as an ideal, but at the time Ireland, according to the statements of Ministers, was in a state of chaos; We had pawned the country; it was in debt; there was nothing but unemployment. Notwithstanding what was said by spokesmen from the Government side we were going to cater for a very small element in the community whom we could consider as living in luxury. I refer the Minister to a speech made here by the Taoiseach on one occasion when he stated that if it were a question of providing employmentor providing luxuries, he would make all the sacrifies for the relief of unemployment rather than cater for people living in luxury.

I protest against the amount of over £500,000 for broadcasting. What have we got in return? The Government back benchers one time were denouncing the fact that some foreigners were being employed in Radio Éireann. They were loud in their protests. What do we find to-day? In reply to a question I put down to the Minister recently we find that the number of non-nationals in Radio Éireann has been increasing within the last few months. There are 22 non-nationals and 40 nationals employed, a lesser number of nationals than previously. I remember well that a different stand was taken previously from that which is taken to-day. When an English band came to this country on one occasion when there was a dispute affecting the Metropole, there were men who took a chance on having these gentlemen removed and sent back to their own quarters.

English bands are not such a great attraction in Ireland. A number of people will flock to hear them on the first few nights but after that they take second place to the Irish bands. I regret that while we have so many men unemployed we are still employing non-nationals in Radio Éireann. I received during my term of office the same advice probably as the Minister received, that these non-nationals would be able to teach our Irish boys to be greater musicians; still there was always a demand to employ a few extra, and I refused to employ any more non-nationals while we had Irishmen available. I am sorry that the Minister gave in to the pressure of employing not alone non-nationals for the orchestra but a man who comes from Czechoslovakia to work for a period of eight months. I am glad to see that a young Irishman was appointed deputy; I would prefer to see him appointed as chief conductor for the time being and we could wait for some years before we realised the Minister's ideal of having the best symphony orchestra in Europe.

We were told that a poll would be conducted among the people to decide their favourite programmes and what they would like on Radio Éireann. I made inquiries in my own constituency in this regard and over 80 per cent. of the people whom I consulted voted against the expenditure of £84,000 on symphony concerts. A great many of them never listened to them. It is fantastic, when we have 60,000 people unemployed, to spend £84,000 for the benefit of a few old fogies in Rathmines who are living in luxury, especially when we have regard to the fact that 22 of those employed in the orchestra are non-nationals receiving higher allowances than the Irishmen. If Irishmen are lucky enough to be employed, they are engaged at a lower salary. I wonder what does Deputy Briscoe say to that? When he was in opposition he made a complaint about foreigners being employed.

I never made such a complaint.

I remember in 1949——

Quote what I said.

Is the Deputy satisfied to see Irishmen driven out of employment and foreigners brought in? I say that £84,000 is too dear a price to pay for the music we receive. I wonder why the Minister refrained from mentioning anything about the short wave station. Why is Deputy Briscoe silent in that regard.

I have not had a chance of speaking yet. I will be speaking after the Deputy.

I hope the Deputy will give me an explanation because there is nothing about it in the Minister's statement. In 1948 before we got the frequencies there was a protest made by the present Taoiseach, by the present Minister for External Affairs, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce that £500,000 was not being spent in that particular year to allow our people in America, in Africa and other places to know what was taking place in Ireland.

In 1949 the Government of which I was a member agreed to expend £17,000 on the short wave station and a half hourly broadcast to America each day. There is silence now from the back benchers of Fianna Fáil and from the Minister for External Affairs, the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach. They wanted then to have it to counteract the B.B.C. half hourly attack about the Partition of our country. The Minister knows now that we were not in a position to take on propaganda debates in broadcasting to counteract even the B.B.C. There are certain international arrangements. I cannot understand the silence of the Government now, when they were demanding in 1948 that the short wave station be put into full operation, when we had not the frequencies. To-day we have the frequencies but we have silence also from the Government and the back benchers of Fianna Fáil.

I hope Deputy Briscoe will enlighten us now as to why they are silent about the short wave station. Is the position not as keen or as urgent in 1953 as it was in 1948 or 1949? Now we have arrangements regarding frequencies and there have been conferences in Mexico and Copenhagen and, as has been reported in the Press, there may be an arrangement for selling our time and our frequencies on the short wave to other interested people. I know that at one time—and the Minister must know now—one country was prepared to use the short wave station for sponsored programmes. We refused to accept any arrangement with any foreign country for the use of our short wave station for the advertising of goods not manufactured in our own country.

Deputy Briscoe seems to be well briefed as to the doings of the Government. Perhaps he would say why we have no word for the past six months in connection with this very important station—so important that when the present Government was in opposition they put a motion down and took a vote of the House on it, as to our failure to put the station into operation in 1948—before we had the frequencies. The Minister may have some explanation or excuse, butwhen we see the expenditure of over £500,000 surely £20,000 at least could be spared out of that huge sum for the half hour short wave broadcast to let our kith and kin in other countries know what is taking place in this country.

I gave the Deputy the explanation last year. He could not have heard me. He might not have been in the House.

Probably I was not in the House. If the Minister went through what I went through he would not be able to sit for four or five hours, either.

One could always read the debate.

I read the Estimate here for this year and I did not see one penny for the short wave station. Why? There is nothing in the Minister's speech about it. The present Minister for Finance in 1948 was demanding even £10,000; the present Minister for External Affairs was pointing out that it was really essential to counteract propaganda being made here against our country.

I agree with the Minister on the question of television. Although we have some very good sets in Wicklow Town and have had good reception for some years, I agree with him that we must go slowly. I also agree that whatever Government is in power the Minister in charge must have a programme that will meet with the wishes of the Irish people. He points out, very rightly, that there could be programmes of a vulgar type. I am certain the Irish people would not tolerate them for five minutes. There may be demands from all sides of the House to put television into operation. If an official of the Minister's Department sent out a circular pointing out that we could have television for £60,000 by increasing the wireless licence fee by 2/6 from 12/- to 14/6, I do not think very many members of the House would wish to agree with that gentleman's opinion, at the time television was only in its infancy. However, I am glad the Minister is keeping a watchful eye on this, in theevent that, sooner than we wish, we may be forced to operate television in this country.

I also hope the Minister will be able to give a greater variety. We need greater variety in the country places. We need more of the Irish ballads and Irish songs.

I am not going to criticise in any way the news broadcasts. I am certain the Minister is taking the line that I took, that we would never interfere with those qualified journalists, that the news is a matter entirely for themselves, to give fair play to all sections, and I am sure that is always their intention.

There may be demands from all sides of the House for various types of programmes. That is why I pointed out last year that, even with the committee appointed, you still have Civil Service control over broadcasting. The fact that the Minister must come to the Dáil with the Estimate and run the gauntlet of criticism and give his explanations, shows that the Civil Service hand is still there. It is a careful hand, as they are in a position to do what they think would not cause any trouble. I know they do what they believe will be fair to all sections of the community. I have that confidence in the Civil Service from my experience of them over the past 30 years. However, they always have an eye on the safety valve, once they are responsible to the House, whereas if they were outside the House they would be prepared to take a risk—a risk which probably would meet with greater approval than the careful method they adopt now when they avoid risk for fear of the criticism here. I would be prepared to take the risk to try to meet the demands of the people.

The Department must know now, from the votes received in the poll— and the Minister must know from going around the country himself—that there still is criticism of the broadcasting service. I do not think it is all justified. Some of us do not really appreciate the difficulties. I could never understand why the broadcasting service was put under theMinister for Posts and Telegraphs. If we were to have broadcasting tied to the Government and a Minister responsible, I always thought it should be the Minister for Education. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is one who collects revenue, but even in that Department the accommodation is not all that should be desired. Why broadcasting was put under that Department I could never understand and I always pointed out that it was a job the Minister for Education should take over.

I do not think the report calls for much criticism. We have a foreign orchestra. We have seen in the papers where we are paying £35 for 30 minutes to certain officials. Whether that would meet with the approval of the public or not I do not know. I protest against the huge increase in connection with that service, and I ask: "What are we getting in return?" I am glad to see that the Minister has made provision for instruments. That is really necessary.

Last year I raised a specific matter in connection with reception in various parts of England. There are complaints from areas in which there are large centres of Irish population that reception is very poor. That is true of parts of Liverpool, but the extraordinary thing is that in the centre of Liverpool reception is excellent. Towards Birkenhead, in which there is a large centre of Irish population, reception is very bad. Something should be done to improve the present position.

My principal criticism is directed towards the expenditure of £84,000 on a symphony orchestra. We are in rather poor circumstances, and I do not approve of squandering such a huge sum of money. I think any criticism of foreigners in our national orchestra is fully justified.

The salaries are £42,000, not £84,000.

According to the return it is £47,000 for six months.

It is £42,000 for the whole year. It represents 10 per cent. of the total cost of broadcasting. Thetotal cost is £429,000. The Deputy may have misunderstood me.

That is so. In 1949 we agreed to provide £17,000 towards the cost of short-wave broadcasting to America for one half-hour. Have any steps been taken in regard to that matter?

I do not approve of the increase in licences to 17/6. The people are not getting value in return for that expenditure. It must be remembered that the number who have taken out licences has increased, and from that point of view more revenue should be coming in, and there is therefore no justification for the increase in the cost of the licence.

The Minister should withstand any pressure brought to bear on him in relation to the employment of foreigners. I am not a highbrow. I am one of the plain people. If the Minister has been unable to resist the demand for the employment of foreigners I can only hope that it will not be necessary to adopt the tactics adopted when foreigners were employed in the Metropole. They were given short shrift.

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has no responsibility for that.

I want to warn the Minister against any recurrence of that. Certainly he was not responsible for what happened, but there are men here who were responsible and they were not afraid to take that responsibility.

I am sorry the Minister did not announce the result of the poll that was held. I am sure other countries would have taken the same attitude as County Wicklow did, namely, 80 per cent. against having foreigners employed in our national orchestra at the expense of our own people.

I am rather astonished at the wailing Jeremiah to whom we have just listened. It is a long road back to the days when people got good value on paying 10/- to listen through the medium of cat's whiskers. Surely Deputy Everett ought to be one of the first to admit the progress that has been made in radio transmission. Thepeople are to-day getting more than 100 per cent. increased value for the 17/6 they pay for wireless licences as against what they got for 10/- many, many years ago.

We have travelled a long and difficult road. From the point of view of the improvements that have been made— I am sure the Minister will be one of the first to admit this—a great deal of credit must be given to Deputy Little who, as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, had to overcome many criticisms and objections in laying the foundations of what we have now ultimately achieved. Nobody suggests we have reached perfection but we can be justly proud of our broadcasting station. Our station compares favourably with, if it is not indeed superior to, other stations to which we can tune in. Deputy Everett has attempted to deal with a certain problem by saying that no foreigners should be employed in our radio station so long as there are unemployed musicians available in the country. That is the standard and the test he wants to apply.

The Minister in his introductory statement pointed out that there are particular types of instruments and there are no Irish musicians capable of playing them. Take the cello, for instance, or any other instrument. If there is not a suitable cellist at home and a cellist is needed for the orchestra, Deputy Everett contends that, if there are musicians unemployed, whether they play mouthorgans, harmonicas, bugles or any other instrument, no foreigner should be employed.

The people who pay their licence fee, when they tune in to Radio Éireann, want a pleasant reception. We could go very far down the line from the point of view of efficiency, and we could have an orchestra composed entirely of Irish musicians but who might not be first-class musicians and you might have discord instead of harmony and good orchestration.

I am very interested to hear that with the development of musical training in the country there is now a possibility of Irish people, locally trained, finding good and permanent employment in the gradually expanding RadioÉireann Orchestra. Does Deputy Everett want to stop that? He is asking that this Vote be referred back, first of all because he thought £84,000 was being spent on the orchestra. He now realises that it is £40,000. The Vote will be referred back because £40,000 is being spent on the orchestra and Deputy Everett contends that so long as there are 60,000 unemployed we have no right to spend that money.

That is the Taoiseach's statement.

The Deputy is referring the Vote back for the reason that there are persons unemployed. The Taoiseach never said that so long as there were unemployed we would not have an orchestra in Radio Éireann.

We are not doing our duty as long as there is luxury in one part of the country and starvation in another—that was the Taoiseach's statement.

The Deputy is interpreting the Taoiseach's speech.

Very few can interpret it.

He is implying that the luxury to which the Taoiseach referred was Radio Éireann Orchestra. That is Deputy Everett's interpretation but it is not everybody's interpretation. The people who pay a licence fee are entitled to a musical programme as well as other features. They are entitled to good music and to good music properly rendered. In order to provide that, money must be spent. Deputy Everett's logic is: "You have 60,000 unemployed"—I am not accepting that figure—"do not spend this £40,000 and you will have an additional 20 unemployed." That, is his logic. He does not realise that, at the very worst, instead of this being a luxury, it is a means of employment.

What did the Taoiseach say?

The Taoiseach said nothing about Radio Éireann.

I am only quoting from his statement.

The Deputy is pretending—or maybe he believes what he says——

Does the Deputy believe what he is saying now?

Of course, I do.

Deputy Everett has made his contribution to the debate and should allow Deputy Briscoe to make his speech without interruption.

Radio Éireann is a popular station. It is listened to with interest not only by our people at home but by great numbers of people outside this country. Deputy Everett proved that. One of his complaints was that people he knew in certain parts of Liverpool could not get good reception. He wants the Minister to control atmospherics as well as everything else so that people in a particular area should get good reception. It proves what I am saying, that vast numbers of people outside Ireland listen with interest to Radio Éireann. That is proof positive that our station has made good progress and is now worth listening to.

I should like to forget Deputy Everett for a few moments and ask the Minister to consider amending one of the regulations.

You cannot forget him.

Members of Dáil Éireann are precluded from speaking on Radio Éireann even if they wish to do so in another capacity. There are members of this House who are members of local bodies. A member of a local authority who is not a member of Dáil Éireann can participate in debates in connection with local authority affairs. A member of the Dáil cannot. I would like that particular regulation to be altered or clarified so that a member of the House would not be debarred from speaking on such an occasion.

There should be more rigid examination of the persons who participate in these debates. From time to time I have listened to individuals whose statements in relation to certain domestic matters were coloured by thefact that they have commitments outside this country. There should be some process other than exists at the moment of examining the persons who take part in debates. Sometimes the persons who find their way on to a programme indulge in criticism from which it is quite clear they have an outside affiliation.

Every Saturday night a programme is broadcast giving a report on the week in the Dáil. There is a similar type of programme on the B.B.C. in relation to the week in the British Parliament. Could the Minister extend the time given to that feature to half an hour? The is a news report every night of the proceedings in the Dáil. The person in charge of the programme should be given at least half an hour to give a résumé of the week's proceedings. It is difficult to give the public a picture of proceedings in the Dáil in a quarter of an hour. I am sure that at the end of this week the radio announcer on the proceedings in the Dáil here this week would like to devote a little more than two or two and a half minutes to Deputy Everett's speech to-night so that the people will be able to understand what he meant and what he did not mean.

The Minister has correctly stated that our schools of music now have, if you like, an incentive to produce first-class musicians who will find the possibility of employment in their own country, and good employment. I would like to see co-operation of a different nature between the station and those schools of music. I would like the Minister to consider the possibility of adding to the already existing scholarships in order to further help the production at home of first-class musicians. Nobody says, nobody has stated anywhere, that the Irish people are not sufficiently talented from a musical point of view. The difficulty has been the teaching of them and the cost of teaching, and we have a great number of our young people who deserve real help in this matter.

I would urge the Minister to see can he not, out of his budgets, include a subvention in the shape of scholarshipsto the schools of music in order further to help produce the first-class musicians who are now coming into the ear of the public, because some recently employed people on Radio Éireann were recently produced, and some of them are still pursuing their studies in this regard, and are now members of the Radio Éireann Orchestra, an orchestra that is regarded as being highly efficient and of great interest to a great number of people.

Deputy Everett said that according to his gallup poll—I take it that was what it was—in Wicklow——

I did not say that. I said that it was the Department's.

Deputy Everett said that from information he had himself gleaned in his own constituency, 80 per cent. of his constituents were against a certain class of programme, namely, the promenade concerts.

That was a return sent in to the Department.

I am not talking about that return.

But I am. Do not twist it.

The return of the Department? Is the Deputy now suggesting that a return to the Department shows that 80 per cent. of all listeners in the whole country have that point of view?

I am talking about the countryside I know of.

Deputy Everett made a speech and he should allow Deputy Briscoe to make his speech without interruption.

It is very hard to be listening to him.

I do not know whether I am hard of hearing or Deputy Everett is hard of hearing, but I understood Deputy Everett to say that he was speaking for his constituents, and that 80 per cent. of them were against orchestral music and they wanted more ballads.

Get the Minister's returns from Wicklow.

I do not know. I have not seen this particular gallup poll, as I call it.

You are well in the confidence not alone on that matter but on others.

I do not know that I am as much in the confidence as the Deputy was when he was a Minister of the Cabinet. At least I am only a back-bencher. I am speaking from a front seat at the moment because there is nobody else in it. Deputy Everett criticised those broadcasts. The Minister pointed out that the ordinary members of the public were very interested and turned up at the halls where those concerts were given. I want to tell Deputy Everett that of all the people I know and of all the people with whom I come into conversation it would be safe to say that 80 per cent. listen in to those promenade concerts whenever they are on Radio Éireann, and the topic of conversation amongst young people who are musically minded will be on the particular promenade concert and on the particular person who was the soloist on that occasion.

We have, if you like, foreigners in this country of whom we may be proud and to whom we should be grateful. We have a violinist, a teacher in the Royal Academy of Music, Mr. Vanecek, to whom it is a pleasure to listen when he plays, who is one of the greatest technicians from the point of view of rendering violin solos and violin playing generally, and he is a magnificent teacher; and might I point out to the Deputy that some of his pupils to-day are earning their living in Radio Éireann. It is all very well and very nice to talk about foreigners on the eve of an election at some little place and put this cry up but the people——

They did not listen to you.

I do not know what the Deputy means. They certainly listened to me in one place when the Deputy would not turn up and face me.

It does not arise on the Estimate.

I was never afraid of you or of any member of your Government and well you know it.

This conversation between the Deputies must not be pursued.

Deputy Everett does not seem to realise that we are over here and he is over there because people did listen to us, or because they did not listen to him or possibly because they did listen to him. That is why we are here.

They listened to me, that is why you lost a seat.

We did not lose a seat. Labour lost a seat.

It does not arise on the Estimate.

If the Deputy wants to have an argument I am prepared to argue with him.

Let us get back to the Estimate.

I want to get back to it if I am allowed. I have made a number of suggestions to the Minister which I hope he will consider though I do not know if he will be able to give us the answers to-night. The Minister has said that he has been receiving large numbers of congratulatory messages as a result of improvements generally in the programme. I am glad that he has extended the time that Radio Éireann is now available to the public. The more we get of it the better, I think, but what I want to say is that I hope he will not listen to pleadings of the nature of Deputy Everett's, saying that so long as you have unemployed people you must not spend money on Radio Éireann. There are a great number of people who pay 17/6 per year now for the radio licence, and a great number of them even are unemployed, and surely to goodness they are entitled to a little pleasure.

They do not want to listen to symphony concerts.

Deputy Everett seems to think that a symphony orchestra is something horrible, something that should be barred from the country.

It is the musicians you have in it—20 foreigners, from Czechoslovakia and everywhere else.

You should go to the gallery in the Gaiety Theatre on Sunday night and then you would know what the people think.

I do not think that Deputy Everett knows what a symphony orchestra is. Perhaps Deputy Everett will accompany me as my guest some evening and we will go together to a symphony orchestra, and I will guarantee him that he will go again on his own.

Do not inflict that punishment on me.

But not to the dress circle, to the gallery.

I will go quite gladly to the gallery, and I will be just as much at home in the gallery as Deputy Everett will be, but he says he would not face that, that it would be torture.

I would not inflict that torture on him.

Can anybody imagine a Deputy of this House admitting publicly that to listen to a symphony orchestra would be the infliction of torture on himself?

You are in favour of the foreigner.

Deputy Everett says that the radio station should be under the Department of Education, and as an ex-Minister for Posts and Telegraphs he knows that broadcasting must be under control of the Department that is in charge of the means of communication, of wires. Does the Deputy not know that? It sounds lovely to say that the Department of Education will run the broadcasting station, but I do not know how they could run it without having the Post Office. DeputyEverett may have discovered some method by which they can do that.

Surely to goodness it is education. Education is part of Radio Éireann's operations. Is it not obvious that the Minister, the officials who run the station and the committee are bound to be in touch with all aspects? I imagine that if the Department of Education were to take control of the broadcasting station, the one thing that would never be heard on the air would be the proceedings of Dáil Éireann—and certainly so, as a result of the admission which we had here this evening by Deputy Everett, that to have to listen to a symphony orchestra was tantamount to inflicting torture on him.

It could be torture.

If the musicians were bad, it would be torture.

Let us have harmony here.

That is splendid.

I think that Deputy Everett must have declared war on the whole world. According to him, everybody who is a non-national is a foreigner, and he does not want to have anything to do with foreigners, even if they play the fiddle.

Do not get vexed. You are acting like a symphony orchestra here.

I am not vexed but I am being tortured. Deputy Everett raised Cain about the short-wave station and asked what have we all to say about it. He said that we are all silent. Surely Deputy Everett is aware of the procedure of this House. As a former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Everett was accorded the courtesy of being the first Deputy to speak after the Minister had introduced his statement. Consequently, mere back benchers like myself, out of politeness and out of good manners, remained silent and waited to hear the thunderings and the wailings of the ex-Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. That is why Icould not reply to Deputy Everett's speech until the Deputy had, in fact, concluded and I was called by the Chair.

Deputy Everett said he was not here on the occasion when the Minister referred to the reasons why progress could not be made in respect of the establishment of the short-wave station. When I asked Deputy Everett if he had not read the explanation given by the Minister, he gave me no answer. It is just like something that took place here the other day. I was interrupting a Deputy and he heard every interruption and gave me my answer but when I asked him a certain question for which he had no answer he said he was deaf on that side and that he could not hear me.

Thanks be to God, I am not deaf.

The Minister explained that in order to get a short-wave station going you have to be accorded a wavelength.

We got a frequency and we had the rights.

You have to be accorded a wavelength. Certain conferences have taken place. Due to the congestion of the short-wave-lengths or frequencies—call them what you like—I am informed that it has been impossible up to the present to accord us the necessary wavelengths in order to enable us to broadcast.

They are so crowded that they are not worth using.

I have a radio set which has the three wavelengths— short, medium and long. On occasions, I listen in to some short-wave stations. There are, however, other stations from which you cannot get reception because another station is either close to it or upon it and you can get nothing but interference.

Then you are not going to use the short waves?

I hope that, at some time, the Minister will find it possibleto get the short-wave station going. I stand by everything I said in the past in regard to a short-wave station and the need for it. It can be heard from longer distances. I hope that a short-wave station, or something equivalent to it, will soon be available to thousands of people who are further afield than the range of medium-wave and long-wave European stations.

I am sure the Minister will be able to break down the figures of the ordinary expenditure of our radio station and the additional expenditure for new and additional equipment, and so forth. I do not intend to delay the House now. I again congratulate the Minister and the Department on the steady and magnificent improvement in the programmes which we are now receiving from Radio Éireann. I congratulate the Minister and, through him, pay a tribute to the staff of musicians who are able to give us good music, well rendered and of a standard equal to that which you can hear in other places.

Czechoslovakians, foreigners.

I do not know how many foreigners are employed by Radio Éireann. I do not know how long it will take before we shall have completed the training of all classes of musicians to use all the different instruments and to have an all-Irish orchestra. I hope people in other countries will not take a leaf out of Deputy Everett's book. One of our difficulties in getting a complete orchestra together is that great numbers of our musicians find employment abroad at very remunerative salaries —at salaries greater than Radio Éireann can afford to pay them.

Radio Éireann would not employ them.

I hope that Deputy Everett's song about employing foreigners is not taken up in other countries. Some of our young people who are doing good service for Ireland in being members of orchestras of very high standards in other countries, and at good salaries to themselves, mightbe affected by such an attitude of mind. Foreigners! Czechoslovakians! Really, it is very difficult for me to digest all that I had to swallow here this evening during the course of Deputy Everett's speech.

I believe excellent progress has been made and that the Dáil can be pleased with what has taken place. Nobody claims—even the Minister did not claim it—that perfection has been reached. Undoubtedly, however, progress has been made.

I want to say, in conclusion, that if Deputy Everett's mathematics or his logic convey to him that to improve the unemployment situation of Ireland you have to sack people who are in employment, then I am afraid I do not like Deputy Everett.

We have had a good deal of light-hearted entertainment here—certainly it was light-hearted entertainment for the past half hour or so.

With Deputy Briscoe to conduct it.

If the humorous interludes from Radio Éireann were as entertaining as the past half hour here we might find that nobody had any criticism to offer of the station from that point of view.

I think it might be no harm if Radio Éireann itself concentrated on telling the general public of the help they can get from Radio Éireann and the postal officials with regard to interference. There is a lot of unscreened electrical apparatus in this country and there is a great deal more suffering amongst listeners than we would imagine from the number of complaints. Many people suffer in silence and do not complain, and so I think as much publicity as possible should be given to the help which the Radio Éireann and postal officials are prepared to give in this matter.

I may say also from personal experience, that there seems to be a good deal of interference with Radio Éireann by foreign stations. At a certain time at night. I think an Italian station comes roaring in on Radio Éireann. Ido not suppose we can do much about that, but the Radio Éireann people might take it up with the committees which deal with these matters.

One of the difficulties associated with discussing wireless broadcasting is that Deputies, by reason of the very busyness of their lives, are amongst the worst listeners to broadcasting. I find great difficulty in getting much time to listen in, so I feel that our views on the quality of programmes through the year are not as good as those of the general public, but I must say that when I do listen-in, I find the programmes good and the subjects interesting, in the main.

There has been a good deal of talk about the Radio Éireann Orchestra and I should like to assure the Minister and the country in general that we in the Fine Gael Party are absolutely behind whatever efforts are being made to build up a first class radio orchestra.

You will have no coalition on that basis.

I am afraid that is the policy of this Party.

The foreigners must go.

We must have a first-class orchestra. It is something which all civilised countries demand and which the public here demand, and we feel that the young people who increasingly are taking an interest in musical matters would be the first to be behind a policy of building up a first-class orchestra. It is perhaps not realised by some of what I might call the older age groups and by those who are not personally interested in music, that subjects like the appreciation of music have made tremendous strides in the past 15 or 20 years and that a whole generation of young people have grown up who have been trained in appreciation of music and who are demanding first-class quality from the musicians in this country. Apart from that a proper national pride demands that we have a first-class orchestra.

With regard to this question of foreign musicians, the difficulty, of course, has been that owing to thefact that we have had no really first-class orchestra in this country, we have not had the trained musicians, the trained instrumentalists. Irish men and women found that, if they devoted the many years of their lives necessary to learning to play an instrument for an orchestra, at the end of that time there was no orchestra to employ them. Fifty years ago, there were theatre orchestras, and then the cinema came along. For a time, there were a number of cinema orchestras, and then the talkies came, which did away with them, so that from the musicians' point of view Dublin has been a very poor city to seek employment in. Fortunately, now there is the Radio Éireann Orchestra, and I am glad to see that the committee are taking the view that it is necessary to educate and to encourage the education of our Irish musicians.

We would all like to see Irish people employed in the Radio Éireann Orchestra to the fullest degree, and from that point of view I thoroughly agree with Deputy Everett. I am sure the whole House is behind him in his desire to see that Irish musicians are employed to the fullest extent, but we must have an orchestra which can compare favourably with any similar orchestra in Europe, and in order to build up that orchestra it has been necessary to employ foreign musicians. We have been especially weak in the wood-wind section and the Minister referred to the very small number of pupils and people who can play these instruments. He said also that, for two of the seven instruments, there were no teachers available here, so that what we want to do is to see that not only will we get instrumentalists in Radio Éireann who are capable of playing efficiently these instruments, without which the orchestra could not function, but that we will have the men to teach our Irish musicians so that some day these Irish musicians can find employment in the orchestra.

I should like to see more than one public orchestra in Ireland. It would to my mind be a very welcome development if we could have a municipal orchestra. If we looked at this matterin the way that continental cities do. Dublin would have a municipal orchestra and, in that way, we would have still further opportunities of employment for Irish musicians. I do not know that that is feasible at the present time but many cities on the Continent with smaller populations and with a lower rateable value than Dublin, have flourishing municipal orchestras. Musically-minded people in this country would like to see all our cities maintaining orchestras.

I can see that Radio Éireann, whether it likes it or not is getting into the position of being the chief patron, in fact the only patron, of music in a large way in this country. It is also a very important patron of drama. We should realise that we are in a transition stage at the moment. Thirty years ago we had very little of these cultural activities in this country except in a small way. Now that we are starting somewhat later in this field than many other countries, we have to turn to the Government for encouragement, and I hope that Radio Éireann will realise that this rôle of patron, which is inevitably being thrust upon it, is one which it will have to take up. The very fact that it is encouraging the teaching of musicians and helping in giving scholarships, indicates that it realises the important function it can fulfil in this respect.

The Minister mentioned the desirability of having arrangements of Irish music and original works. In that respect it occurred to me that we had in this country until he died some years ago, a very distinguished musician, an Italian, Commendatore Esposito. He devoted the best years of his life to encouraging music in this country. A considerable amount of his music is unpublished, and I believe the Minister for Education has some of it in his possession. I think it would repay investigation on the part of Radio Éireann to find out what Esposito's musical arrangements of Irish works are. He was probably the greatest musician that this country had the honour of adopting for a very long time, and it would be interesting to hear some of his music played or to see it published, if that were possible.

The Minister mentioned television. Of course, we are all somewhat at sea in regard to television in this country. I am of the opinion which is shared by other people, that television is a tremendous force and that we shall have to take it up sooner or later here. It is apparently going to cost a tremendous amount, if and when we do take it up, but it is something we shall have to face. Whether we could, like other small countries, operate part programmes or some system of that kind I do not know but small countries such as ours who have not very many interesting events to televise are put in a very difficult position in regard to television. We do not have very many big international events which have a very widespread interest, nor do we have the scenes of pageantry which take place in certain other countries and which can be televised with very great interest to the people as a whole. It is, therefore, a very difficult problem. I agree, as I am sure other Deputies agree, with the Minister that when we introduce television we must have first-class programmes. Nothing else would be suitable or would be worthy of the country because, whatever criticisms one may hear from time to time about Radio Éireann, nobody can say that the programmes generally are not broadcast in an efficient manner. There is nothing second-rate about them. A programme may not entirely come up to the standards that its originators desire but nevertheless certain efforts are made by our broadcasting station and they are not unworthy of the country. The same standard would require to be attained in regard to television.

Somebody in this debate has raised the question of how Irish programmes were received abroad. A few weeks ago I was in Scotland, in a little place quite near Oban, and whilst visiting a café there I heard an announcement of the Irish news programme. The people there had been listening, apparently, to the Radio Éireann orchestra and the reception was very good. I regret to say that they turned off from the station when they heard the news announcement, because the news wasnot of particular interest to them but they had been listening to the light music programme that preceded it. I asked them what they thought of it and they said that it was very good, that they listened to it every day and that their customers liked the programme.

In connection with the radio orchestra, the Minister stated that six students, violinists, had been appointed to the orchestra on a part-time basis while they were studying. Am I correct in saying these were six extra violinists? I am very glad to see that being done because we have to adopt different methods to build up an orchestra, methods somewhat different from those in other countries, owing to the fact that we have not had orchestras here and because the Radio Éireann Orchestra was practically the only source of employment for these people. With regard to the orchestra itself, I am very glad to see that we have appointed an assistant conductor, Eimear Ó Broin, and I am sure that he will do very well. I have heard him conducting and was greatly taken with his skill and the pleasure which he obviously gave to everybody. I think that the orchestra has improved. It takes time to build up a really first-class orchestra, but the orchestra is coming on very well, as was evidenced by its playing at the proms which I have been at. I am glad to see that the orchestra is really becoming a very first-class instrument for the pleasure and interest of musical people.

We are all glad to see that wireless broadcasting is being removed as far as possible from Government control. It is a cultural and an educative medium and should not be a matter for Government propaganda or for Party strife. It is something that is in the nature of adult education and entertainment and of juvenile education also. Radio Éireann, therefore, has a very difficult job to perform and I think it is doing reasonably well. Personally, I should like the station to have a second programme as a tremendous lot more could be done. The station could then send out two differenttypes of programme at the same time and it would give much better value to our people and satisfy many more than it can do at the present time. Nevertheless, I think it is doing good work and, as I say, we are behind the policy of the Government in divesting themselves of direct control of broadcasting.

There are one or two matters to which I should like to refer. On a previous occasion I spoke about the type of plays presented by Radio Éireann, but since then we had a play produced which has become a radio classic. A great churchman said that the particular play to which I am referring only remained on the boards in New York for three nights and was then taken off. Yet we have had Radio Éireann repeatedly dishing up The Playboy of the Western Worldfor our entertainment. I say that it does not represent Irish life in any shape or form. It has no entertainment value whatever. Recently we have had to listen to another play produced by Radio Éireann and which also ran for 13 weeks in a Dublin theatre. I cannot understand the mentality of people who put on such plays. Surely they should be of some entertainment value. When we listen to them on the radio we are astonished at their vulgarity and cannot understand why they put on plays of that kind. Deputy Dockrell referred to Radio Éireann being of cultural and entertainment value. After the production of these two plays it is about time that the people who are responsible should sit up and take notice. I have seen a letter in the papers from a lady who is a stranger to this country about that second play saying that it would certainly shock anybody who listened to it. There was nothing to recommend it whatever. If that is the type of stuff we are to have produced I think it is not good for the country. It is not good for the young people to listen to the language in these plays—language that they would not hear in any decent home in Ireland.

I also suggested to the Minister on a previous occasion that there should bea programme of entertainment for women and somebody sneeringly remarked that I wanted an old woman's programme. We have now a women's programme which has neither entertainment nor cultural value. We have four ladies, I do not know who they are, giving use recipes for jam and a lot of tittle-tattle talk. There is no music of any kind. I think that programme is no credit to whoever suggested it. There are many other things in connection with Radio Éireann with which I do not agree. These things are objectionable and there is nothing Irish in any of them. I suggest that they should get something more in keeping with the lives of the people, something which would entertain the women of Ireland. There are cultured women in the country areas and they would like some entertainment when the day's work is done. They can enjoy a good play or talk and good music; I do not mean continuous ceili bands or symphony orchestras. We have some good Irish singers who could give us some fine Irish songs. That is what we would like to hear and not this holding up of Ireland and its people to ridicule.

I should like first of all to mention the Cork Station. While we hear a lot about improvements in connection with Athlone and Dublin, I believe it is essential, particularly for the southern areas, that more use should be made of the Cork Station. Undoubtedly in the southern areas of the country we are entitled to say that greater use should be made of that station. If the Cork Station was utilised more it would help to put a more Irish colouring, as it were, on the programmes from Radio Éireann than is the case at present.

I thoroughly agree with the views of Deputy Mrs. Rice in relation to some of the programmes. The Minister should realise that when Deputies express their views in this House they are expressing the views of the people in the country districts. It is most important that the Minister should realise the people in these districts are paying 17/6 per year towards financing radio services in this country and thatthey are anxious to hear programmes of their own liking over the air as opposed to some of the programmes that are heard from time to time.

Undoubtedly, we cannot expect, by reason of the size of our stations, programmes as varied as those that can be put on by outside organisations. While that is true, it is equally important the Minister should understand that whatever about the City of Dublin, the people in the rural areas demand radio programmes which reflect a true aspect of social life in the matter of music, song or drama.

If we are to get better programmes through the southern station—and we can and should get them—adequate fees should be paid to the artistes. The authorities seem to believe that there is more or less a great favour bestowed on people if they are called upon to broadcast unless they come from a certain section in certain places. I believe that talent is available in the southern part of this country— talent that should be utilised. The talent is of such a high standard and quality that it would improve broadcasting. That being so, I say that those who broadcast are entitled to a decent reward for their services when they are asked to take part in programmes. We must realise that the labourer is worthy of his hire.

I do not know whether other speakers mentioned the most important problem of all—interference. Some two years ago I drew the Minister's attention, by means of a parliamentary question, to the disgusting interference which affects listeners in areas on the southern seaboard. In reply the Minister informed me that he hoped the matter would be remedied. I am sorry to say this disgusting interference still exists in these areas, particularly at night time. There is interference with the Athlone Station. This may be a difficult problem to solve but two years have elapsed and throughout that time the people have been paying their wireless licences. If the Minister in charge of this important Department wants to get Irish programmes over the air properly and in a satisfactory manner he must beprepared to do his utmost to eliminate this interference. Towards that end the services of the engineers should be availed of. We should, if necessary, go beyond this country to seek such expert advice as would enable us to overcome the disgusting interference that exists on the radio at the present time.

There is one matter that I could not afford to pass over without some reference on this Estimate. God knows I have no desire to be personal one way or the other but while Deputies may tell us of the improvements, advancements and improved cultural standards in regard to our radio stations we have overstepped ourselves in one direction. That is not only my view but it is the view of countless numbers of people down the country. I refer to using the Oxford tone in connection with radio announcements in this country. On a few occasions I myself disagreed with the members of my own family as to what station I was listening to. I thought I was listening to the B.B.C.

I am sorry to have to refer to this matter. It is a joke for us to say we want Irish programmes which are in true keeping with our own Irish way of life if, at the same time, we are prepared to have people announce a programme and use a language which the Irish do not know. Let us have a Dublin accent—I myself would prefer a Cork one—or any other kind of an Irish accent. The sooner these announcers apply for a job on the B.B.C. the sooner will we be satisfied in this country.

On the other hand, I should say that many people seem to be very much in favour of the attitude and expressions of the lady announcer dealing with the hospitals' requests programme. It is delightful to hear the announcements during this programme. The tone of voice in which they are delivered is truly Irish and certainly expresses what every one of us is anxious to hear. It has an Irish touch. I want to stress particularly to the Minister that we do not want anything to do with foreign tones or accents. We may have symphony programmes and advancementsmay have been made in one direction or another, but foreign tones or accents cannot be classified as an improvement and the sooner they are done away with the better. I hope the present Minister will see to the matter. If not, then, with God's help, some other Minister will come along to see this matter is attended to.

I do not want to condemn. I want to avoid that. There is one last point I want to make. Thanks be to God, we can hear the Angelus bell over Radio Éireann at 6 p.m. I remember—I am not going back for the purpose of raising anything controversial—coming to the Dáil for the first time in 1948. A colleague of mine said to me that he had one ambition in life and that was to hear the bells of the Angelus at 6 p.m. over the radio. Thanks be to God that has materialised, but the tragedy of it is that my colleague did not live to hear them. I refer to the late Deputy T.J. Murphy, God rest his soul. Thank God for the background we claim as our heritage. It is a background that each and every one of us is proud of. We want that state of affairs to continue. I would go a step further. After all, there is very little sense in lip-service. Actions always count more than words. Are we prepared, as a Christian and Catholic nation, to go the whole way and have the Rosary said over the radio in addition to hearing the bells of the Angelus?

Surely that is not too much to ask in this country. Surely we have nothing to be ashamed of in regard to the heritage that is ours. A lead may have been given by famous personalities from such countries as the United States but it is up to us to see that we go the whole way. Let us have at the end of the day, when the Radio Éireann programme comes to a close, something that we would all be proud of, and that is the recitation of the family Rosary over the air.

Wireless broadcasting has now become a very important matter in the lives of the Irish people. It can do an immense amount of good or an immense amount of evil. Sincewe are in control of the position I believe that Irish broadcasting can be made do an immense amount of good. I believe that great strides have been made since we made a start with it. We find that an improvement has been recorded each year. I believe that this new type of education can be of vast importance. We cannot but keep our eyes on how things are going. Irish broadcasting affords an opportunity of bringing out the best that is in our people. The outside world is giving us everything that is the worst, but let us do our best as far as we can.

I agree with the sentiments that were expressed by Deputy Mrs. Rice. I was disgusted, and so were a great number of people, with many of the Irish plays that I have heard broadcast from time to time. I was disgusted at the vulgarity and the dirt of a low-meaning type that came out in many of these Irish plays. It is time, I think, that they were scrapped. I would ask the Minister to see that that type of play is excluded. It does not depict Irish life. It shows the mentality of the back street, the dirt of the lowdown public house. We do not want that. That type of play may be taken in some places to represent Ireland as a whole. It does not and, as I have said, it does not depict our Irish life. When I listen to the broadcast of such plays I feel disgusted and so do all decent types of people. I ask that these plays be cut out. Let us have plays broadcast which really depict Irish life in all its grand aspects, and Irish life can be grand.

There is another thing which is of vast importance to the country, and that is that in these broadcasts there should be something done to bring about a revival of the old Irish spirit, the real national spirit of the country. I am satisfied that we are living in a materialistic age. Over the last 25 years, this country has gone in almost entirely for materialism and has no room for nationalism. It is time that the mind of the new generation was focused on the old Irish Ireland spirit, on the advancement of the country, and not only on her language and culture but on her reunification. We do nothear half enough about that. There is a broadcast once a year on St. Patrick's Day by the Taoiseach. I believe that we should have such a broadcast at least once a month of something of value to the country— about the ending of Partition. I believe that many of the leaders in our lost province should have the opportunity, at least once a month, of coming down here and airing their grievances from our broadcasting station. It is up to us to do that because they have their grievances. They feel that we are letting them down.

I believe that if the old material spirit were resurrected in the country that great things would come out of it. Many of us remember how that was done when we were much younger than we are to-day. About the year 1917 or 1918 things were at a very low ebb in the national sense. Very few people at the time were prepared to come forward and give of their best to resurrect that old martial spirit. But small groups of people did come forward and did succeed in reviving the national spirit of the country. More than 30 years have passed since then, and this is the time when the new generation should be asked to engage in the work of reviving the national spirit—to take on where we are leaving off.

I suggest that we should have weekly, monthly and yearly broadcasts on the curse that Partition has been to this country. I would ask the Minister to take note of what I am saying because this is a matter which is talked about at Gaelic League classes, in G.A.A. circles and by other groups of people. They feel the time has come for a new spirit to be aroused amongst the rising generation, something to combat the wave of materialism which is so prevalent in the country. To-day people want to get everything cheap and to get it as quickly as they can. They want to get as much money as they can. That is the spirit which predominates to-day, and as long as it is there the country will get nowhere. It is the spirit that will kill our country and hold it back. I hope that we will be able to get away from that materialistic outlook and that we will see a revival of the old national spirit.

I was glad to hear the sentiments that were expressed by Deputy Desmond. I, too, feel proud when I hear the Angelus bell over our broadcasting system. I hope, as he has said, that we will go a step further by having the Rosary broadcast. His ambition in that respect is my ambition. If we do not hear the Rosary broadcast daily, I hope that at least we will hear it once a week. We belong to the Irish nation and we are proud of that. We are a Catholic nation. We should not be ashamed of our heritage, and I hope that, at least on one day of the week, we will have the opportunity of proclaiming to the world what we are and who we are by having the Rosary recited over the radio. Let us have it said publicly. It would be a grand and a noble thing and something that Ireland could be proud of. By doing that we would be proclaiming that we are not steeped in paganism and materialism. I would ask the Minister to take note of what we are asking him to do, because what we are saying here the people are thinking. I am putting forward these suggestions in the hope that good will come out of them.

With regard to Question Time, it seems to me that something very peculiar has happened there. There was an immediate switch and a change from a popular compère, Eric Boden, He was shoved out and a new compère, Joe Linnane, brought in. I have listened to both and I would say that the last is no improvement on the first. He was very popular and the people enjoyed his Question Time very much. I would like to know why there was a switch and a change. I was horrified when I was told by a person in a fairly responsible position that the compère earns £35 for a 45-minute service. He is a lucky man. We talk about T.D.'s salaries but there is a man who can sleep for half a year and get £35 for 45 minutes. That is too easily earned money.

I also agree with Deputy Desmond that some of the speakers in the broadcasting station are not up to the mark. I am a plain simple Irish bloke myself and I like to hear a clear and distinct speaker. With regard to some of our broadcasters, some of thefemales, you would think, listening to them, that they had a potato in their mouths. One cannot know what they are saying. I think it is of enormous importance that the voices of those people should be clear and distinct. That they are not clear may be due to the fact that they either stand too near or too far away from "the mike".

I am satisfied that Deputy Everett, in his time, made an earnest effort to have a completely Irish setup. I agree that in certain cases foreigners must be employed to train those under them. While I agree with that I say that every effort should be made to run Irish Ireland in our own way and to use Irish brains and skill wherever we can do so. I understand that a new conductor has been brought in. I believe he is a splendid man and that he is getting £2,000 for eight months per year. That is pretty handsome. He can sleep for the other four months if he likes. These things, I believe, are going a bit too high. Is it any wonder that we have to pay high fees for our wireless licences? I know that you must pay reasonable fees if you want to get good service but I think that is going too far.

In general, I would say the station is improving each year, and as each year succeeds another, I hope it will continue to improve. I have no complaints to make beyond those on which I have focused attention. The Minister is working hard and his efforts are, in the main, successful. If he concentrates more on the Irish Ireland aspect of things and less on the outside world he will achieve something worthy of our nation.

I would like, first of all, to agree with Deputy Giles and with others who have complimented the Minister on the fact that Radio Éireann has improved in the last few years. There is undoubtedly a wider variety of programme and the programmes are in general more interesting than they were in the past. There is, of course, still a very great deal of room for improvement. I regret that I am not ashighly cultured as Deputy Everett and therefore cannot speak with authority on such things as symphony concerts. I regret also that the Minister's decision, endorsed by Deputy Dockrell, to bring in some outside artistes has caused a rift in the coalition lute and that Deputy Everett has even threatened that he will not allow a Coalition Government to be formed on the basis of Deputy Dockrell's policy of employing outside artistes.

No matter what is formed you will not be in it.

Deputy Everett thinks he is still a shadow Minister, but I am afraid the shadow is growing fainter.

When television comes along the Deputy will be a political acrobat.

If Deputy Everett would refrain from interrupting I would like to refer to the Estimate.

Without bitterness?

Without bitterness. I do not think there will be any likelihood of that because we all approach this Estimate in a co-operative spirit. Every year we try to advise whatever Minister is in power to take steps which we think he ought to take in order to improve the service. As Deputy Everett says, however, we Deputies are probably the worst possible advisers the Minister could have because we get very few opportunities of listening to the regular programmes on the radio. Perhaps it is only on Sunday evening that the average Deputy has a chance of listening in and perhaps this would not be every Sunday evening either.

He may be disturbed now and again.

I am afraid so. I would like to endorse the complaint that was made by Deputy Mrs. Rice about Sunday night plays. They are a disgrace to Radio Éireann and this country. Nobody objects to a broadcast play if it has a spice of humour, but the typeof play that we hear broadcast and particularly those mentioned by Deputy Mrs. Rice contain no spark of humour. They are sordid, vulgar and to a great extent outrageously profane. It appears to be impossible to find any writer capable of writing a decent play suitable for broadcasting. We hear there is a great resurgence of drama in Ireland, that there are a great many new writers coming into the field, but apparently the type of material they are producing is on a very low level.

In so far as the Minister has authority over Radio Éireann he ought to give a direction that such plays as Home is the Hero, The Playboy of the Western World,and other such plays should never again be presented. Anything that is in the nature of comedy is good, but when you have something that is merely vulgar, difficult to listen to, and trying on the nerves as these plays are, they should be cut out completely.

The Minister and the Director of Broadcasting may say: "What can we do? We must take whatever we can get." My view is that if you cannot get anything more suitable than what is being broadcast on Sunday nights it would be better to eliminate these radio dramas altogether and give us Din Joe, Eric Boden, Joe Linnane, or somebody else like them, but not to inflict on the Irish people that type of play which must be turned off if there are any children listening.

I mentioned this matter last year and I would like to repeat the suggestion that Radio Éireann should act as a patron of good drama, and that since they are in a position to offer a reward to playwrights they could offer a fairly substantial prize to any writer who would produce a good radio play. It may be that certain plays are a success on the stage but that they do not come over as well on the air as on the stage. Therefore, the Minister should invite people to write good radio plays specially for Radio Éireann. If they are based on Irish history and the patriots in the history of Ireland, there is an inexhaustible mine of drama of the highest and noblest type. Ourcountry's history was for hundreds of years a sad and glorious struggle of brave men who fought against almost overwhelming odds, going down to defeat in most cases but going down nobly and heroically to death.

I am in agreement with what I understood Deputy Everett to say about the popular ballad. I think a popular ballad that is well sung by a good singer is always good entertainment in this country. The ordinary people like those ballads and there will always be a substantial listening public for them, particularly in the rural areas. That is why I was rather disappointed when Deputy Everett himself rushed into this House to prevent one popular ballad being presented.

I did not do any such thing. The political acrobat is misrepresenting my words.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

When Deputy Everett interrupted I was about to endorse his views regarding the popular ballads. They are highly appreciated in the country. I regret that he tried to prevent one popular ballad being sung on Radio Éireann.

On a point of explanation again, I deny that. I advocated ballads. The Deputy is twisting my words.

I do not know to what ballad the Deputy is referring.

I have a recollection that the Deputy raised the matter of a ballad being sung.

The Freemasons ran away from you in Baltinglass when you drank the wine with the British Queen's cousin—and you an Irish Republican.

Some people who claim that they are highly cultured object to these rustic ballads, but the average rural person appreciates them and wishes them to be continued. I may notbe as highly cultured as Deputy Everett. I am not a judge of high-class music, but I think we should have some more good tenors or singers on Radio Éireann, people who might follow the noble example of the late John McCormack—though they could never compete with him—people who know how to deliver their songs in good clear diction so that the words and music will appeal to the ear. Artistes of that type should always be in demand by Radio Éireann, as they will always be listened to. When heard outside this country, singing songs of an Irish nature based on Irish life, they carry a message throughout the length and breadth of the world as far as Radio Éireann can carry it. They bring it to Irish exiles abroad, and for that reason they should be encouraged.

I am altogether in favour of political controversy on the radio. Every type of discussion, which may be of a contentious nature, should be encouraged, provided it is carried out by people who have a sense of humour, who can keep their tempers under control and who can make their points in a reasoned and reasonable way. I would not suggest that we should have frequent debates as between the Government and the Opposition. People get tired of that very quickly. However, we could have debates on proposed legislation, which might be equally controversial and which would always be of interest. That type of broadcast should be encouraged. People generally like to hear a clash of views on questions of topical interest. Talks on topical affairs are highly appreciated, and it would be even more highly appreciated if there were a debate from time to time on topical subjects that are under the public notice.

Radio Éireann is a national service which reaches out to every part of the country, even to remote rural areas where the daily paper is not regularly taken. In that way it brings a certain amount of variety and information to people who are somewhat cut off from the ordinary source of news. I remember hearing about two tourists who visited a very remote part of the County Wicklow some time ago. In amountain district they came upon a very old man and, being smart city fellows, they said to themselves: "Here is the real native Irishman, the man who has no contact at all with modern life." To try him out they asked him about the weather and he said: "I think it will rain to-morrow." They were anxious to find out how he knew so much about the weather and asked him did he judge by the sun or the stars or the moon. "No," he said, "you cannot depend upon them now, but the young lady on the wireless says that there is a trough of low pressure moving from the east; when you hear that you can look out for rain." I mention that to show that, no matter how remote the district, you cannot get away from Radio Éireann or broadcasting generally. That is all to the good.

If television has a future, as Deputy Dockrell said, it will have to be considered. It involves considerable expense and unless the service can be made to pay it should not be undertaken. If we are to have television programmes at all I have one view to express, and that is that they should be of short duration each day. I have heard complaints in countries where television is in operation that the children and young people are kept away from their school exercises and their work for too long periods. Therefore, if we have television programmes here they should be of the shortest possible duration.

Deputy Dockrell said that we have not very much to televise. He said we have none of the big events that take place in other countries, or the pageantry of other countries. I do not think there are any people better qualified to provide pageantry than the Irish people. During An Tóstal there was a pageant in Aughrim dealing with the life of the O'Byrne clan and it was remarkably well carried out. If it were to form part of a television programme it could possibly have been better done. Events like that could be televised here, perhaps even better than such events are televised in other countries. We have the spirit and enterprise for organising features of that kind. Criticism should not deter theMinister in regard to television programmes, but this is a matter that will have to be carefully considered from the point of view of economics and cost; if it can be put into operation it will be a tremendous force in the development of Irish art and culture and in the advancement of our people.

With regard to religious broadcasts, on that matter the Minister should be guided by the ecclesiastical authorities. They are the people best qualified to advise and their advice should be sought and taken.

I do not think any Deputy contributing to this debate could succeed in making the discussion develop into a political discussion because, when speaking about Radio Éireann, one is merely expressing a personal opinion or demonstrating one's personal taste. No matter of principle is involved. The jazz singer and the member of the symphony orchestra can be as Tory, Liberal or Conservative as they like. I believe that we in this House, no matter what the public may think, are the best fitted to convey the opinions of the country as a whole to the broadcasting officials in Radio Éireann through the person of the Minister. It is not for us to criticise personalities in or on Radio Éireann or attempt to suggest what particular artistes should be allowed to broadcast, but we should not be denied an opportunity of expressing our views on the artistes and the types of programmes that are presented.

The reason I say that we are best fitted to give our views, or the views of the public, on Radio Éireann is because if it were left to the individual listeners to make their views known individually to the advisory council or to the Minister a very, very small number would give their views, so that, overall, I think the views expressed here may be construed as being the views of the country in general. From what I have heard here to-night, business people, farmers, legal men and clerks have given their views and these views must be considered to be the views of the people as a whole.

The Minister should, however, try to get the views of the public with regard to Radio Éireann in general and the programmes presented in the past year in particular. I have often wondered how many people listen to Radio Éireann. It would be interesting to know what proportion of licence holders listen to our own station. A the moment if a listener is not satisfied with the programme from Radio Éireann he simply switches over some other station. He has a variety of entertainment at his command from other stations. It would be interesting to know if there is big support for the present programmes.

The Minister, in his speech, gave a pretty comprehensive survey of the operations and activities of Radio Éireann in the past year, but I am dissatisfied with the method in which this Vote is presented in the Book of Estimates. There are only three headings —Expenses of Broadcasting, Equipment, inclusive of labour, and Appropriations-in-Aid. No information is given in the Estimate. There is no reference to salaries. We are not in a position to express an opinion as to whether or not musicians employed in the orchestra are adequately paid. We do not know whether members of the symphony orchestra are paid too much or too little.

That is of particular concern to us as members of the Labour Party. In presenting the Estimate next year the Minister should revert to the former system and give us details in respect of salaries and wages, the cost of operating programmes, the cost of musical instruments, travelling expenses, plant and equipment, expenses in connection with international conferences and conventions, telegrams and telephones, the amount paid in respect of the radio journal and the other incidental expenses. I do not suggest that anything is being concealed in this Vote because of the method employed. If my suggestion is adopted it will have the effect of widening the scope of the debate and Deputies will be in a better position to make their comments on Radio Éireann.

Will the advisory council, set up last year with the approval of the majorityof this House, present a report? The Minister, as I said, gave a fairly comprehensive report on Radio Éireann but that report is limited of necessity. It would be interesting if the advisory council would present an annual report which would be made available to Deputies and to the public. I would like to know also, whilst I do not doubt their usefulness, the number of times that body met during the year so that the public may be in a position to know whether or not it has been worth while to appoint this advisory council.

Before I discuss actual presentations on Radio Éireann, I would ask the Minister a few questions. By what method or by whom are the commentators, masters of ceremony and the various announcers appointed? There are many good commentators and many bad commentators on Radio Éireann who just seem to go into Radio Éireann. Nobody seems to know when, how, and under what conditions they were appointed. It seems to me that some of them are there for good, whether they are good, bad or indifferent, and there does not seem to be much element of competition with regard to the appointment of commentators and announcers.

I want to ask a question which a majority of people to whom I have spoken about Radio Éireann announcers have asked me. I have heard Deputy Giles talking about announcers. I would not agree at all with him with regard to the lady announcers in Radio Éireann. I think they are excellent. Most of the male announcers are excellent. I should like to know who employs the announcer with the super-standard English accent? I have nothing to say about his accent but it is not racy of the soil. Listening to this particular announcer, whoever he may be, one would never associate his accept with Radio Éireann. Deputies have various accents, peculiar to the counties or parts of Ireland from which we come. The particular announcer to whom I refer has an accent which could not be remotely connected with any part of this country. I do not take exception to his accent, but I am making acriticism or raising a query with regard to the accent that is employed on an Irish radio station. I can safely say that his peculiar pronunciation of many words, in standard English, is not readily understood by some of the people whom I know and certainly not by me sometimes.

I should like the Minister, therefore, to deal with the appointment of these announcers and commentators and to give us some information as to whether they are permanent or not and as to their general conditions of employment.

Any criticism or remarks that may be made about Radio Éireann are purely matters of taste and opinion. We could talk all night here about the symphony orchestra and find every second person saying that he did not like symphony music. There is no use in a Deputy like Deputy Briscoe inviting Deputy Everett to a symphony orchestra with the assurance that he would be converted after one performance. Deputy Everett may not like symphony music. Deputy Briscoe may like symphony music. My taste is in between. There is great room for the symphony orchestra. I am one of those who did not know and still do not know much about music but I was converted to the symphony orchestra and to symphony music. I have not heard a great deal of criticism in my part of the country with regard to the frequency of the symphony orchestra on Radio Éireann. That may be due to the fact that the people of Wexford for the last three years have been fortunate enough to hear the symphony orchestra and to see the players in person on a Wexford stage. That type of activity on the part of Radio Éireann, or should I say on the part of the Wexford Festival Committee, has done a great deal to promote interest in the type of music performed by the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra.

The question of employment of foreign musicians is, again, a matter of opinion. Deputy Everett and other Deputies agree that there is a necessity to have foreign musicians in this country to act in the capacity of instructors. What is worrying some of us and some of the Deputies who sitbehind the Minister is how long this instruction is to continue, when will we see a decrease in the number of foreign musicians in the symphony orchestra and, above all, what Radio Éireann is doing to induce young Irish musicians to adopt musical careers with a view to becoming members of the symphony orchestra.

The Minister's remarks with regard to the scarcity of a particular type of musician in this country were interesting. May I make a suggestion, for what it is worth? Has any effort been made to train the young members— and most of them are young—in the Army School of Music? There are admirable facilities for musical training in the Army School of Music. A very famous foreigner, Colonel Fritz Brase, did a great deal for the Army School of Music and the various Army bands. That school is capable of producing young recruits for training and eventual membership of an orchestra like the symphony orchestra.

In addition, the Minister could explore the possibilities of training—I will not say recruiting—some of the members of a school with which practically everybody in this country is familiar—Artane. Whether the particular type of music taught in Artane School would fit them for membership of the symphony orchestra or not I do not know, but if the Minister were to explore those two avenues he would find that there are in these two places that I have mentioned young Irishmen who would be capable of being trained and eventually recruited into the orchestra.

We do not voice Party views here. I can disagree 100 per cent. with Deputy Desmond, Deputy Keyes or Deputy Everett. I want to make one comment in respect of one particular item that is a regular feature of Radio Éireann at present, that is, "Take the Floor".

My frank opinion of it is—and I know that the people who present "Take the Floor" and who take part in it will not take offence—that the sooner they take them off the floor the better because it is neither funny nor does it portray Irish life as I believeit is intended to do. It is not so much for the Minister to decide, but that is a point of view that I have about it, and I am sure that if the Director of Radio Éireann gets similar viewpoints to the one I express here, he will possibly consider at least making some change in it.

I want to join with other Deputies in congratulating the Director of Radio Éireann on the introduction of the topical talks after the midday news. There have been some excellent talks, and above all I think that the director may take note that there have been some admirable speakers giving those talks—one in particular who happens to frequent this House pretty often and whose voice is admirably suited for broadcasting. Generally, I may say that those talks are most informative and deal with subjects which I should think interest the big majority of the listeners to Radio Éireann.

I think that the public discussions have been very successful but the delivery of those taking part in them has not been successful on many occasions. The microphone has been placed wrongly or the speakers were not in the proper position when speaking through the microphone. The technicians or those in charge of that particular branch of entertainment ought to pay more attention to the delivery of the people who are taking part in those discussions.

Again, if I might express a personal point of view I want to say, as against what Deputy Captain Giles said, that the new Question Time is something like the old Question Time that we had some years ago and that the person who is now compering the new Question Time is far beyond the person who was there before him. The person who was there before him talked too much and Question Time so far as I could see represented only about 10 per cent. of the whole time allocated to that particular feature.

We have had, year after year, discussions about the type of plays presented on Radio Éireann, and one particular play was mentioned, Home is the Hero.I did not have an opportunity of listening to that particularplay, but there were criticisms offered here last year in regard to other plays of a similar type—The Playboy of the Western World, Red Roses for Me,and those other plays. Some Deputies thought that they should not be presented in Radio Éireann. They have been presented in various theatres in this country and big exception was not taken to them. Deputy Cogan, as his opinion, said that that type of play ought to be spiced with, I think he said, variety and humour. We cannot get away from the fact that our Irish plays—and it is a tribute to them—are plays with reality, and I would humbly suggest that many of the plays that have been written by Irishmen, many famous plays in which we have taken pride when they were presented in other countries, are more or less on the lines of the particular plays that are now objected to, and I think that we must have a sense of reality towards those plays. If one were to examine the text of the Shakespearean plays which were regarded as famous and about which nobody would have qualms of conscience about presenting on Radio Éireann we would find them in many cases just as vulgar and sordid, and more so, than some of the plays that have been mentioned here last year and in the debate to-night.

I think it is a very good step to have an extension of hours from 8 o'clock to 9 o'clock in the morning, especially with the new broadcasts at 8 and 9. So far as I am concerned, the interval music between a quarter past eight and 9 o'clock gives a certain brightness to Radio Éireann and makes people a little more familiar with Radio Éireann. I might say that the type of music, whoever selects it—I think it is a sponsored programme—is admirably suited to that particular part of the day. I also welcome the introduction of the light orchestra from 11 to 11.30 at night time.

I would like to ask the Minister a question in respect of the news. I would like to know who provides the news for Radio Éireann. I wonder if the well-established journalists in the various towns and villages and cities in the country are commissioned to providethe news to Radio Éireann. Quite briefly I would like to say that I would hate to think that the news was being provided from down the country to Radio Éireann from scab reporters. When I say scab reporters I am not suggesting that they are. I am only asking the Minister for information, and I would like to see a system whereby recognised and established newspaper journalists in the towns and cities and in the rural areas generally would provide the news from their locality to Radio Éireann.

I was very surprised that in his 22-page speech on the Vote for Radio Éireann the Minister did not mention the sponsored programmes. I might be wrong in that, but I read his speech and I listened to the greater portion of it, and not once did he mention the sponsored programmes; but every one of us who listen to Radio Éireann must realise that, at a fair guess, from 20 to 25 per cent. of the time is devoted to sponsored programmes. I do not know whether that is accurate or not, but there is approximately one hour in the morning or three-quarters of an hour, about two hours in the afternoon or sometimes two and a half hours, and a half-hour at night time. That is a total of about four hours, and I think broadcasting time on Radio Éireann is roughly ten or ten and a half hours.

The sponsored programmes seem to be getting bigger and bigger. Whether it is good or bad is again a matter of opinion. I wonder was there a particular significance in the Minister's omission to deal with those sponsored programmes? I am not particularly keen on certain types of sponsored programmes because I do not believe that Radio Éireann has sufficient control over the sponsored programmes. Maybe the viewpoint is that as long as those sponsors pay their money they are entitled to present whatever type of entertainment they want to. This question was raised last year and the Minister, I think—I do not pretend to quote him accurately—said that he was considering the question of sponsored programmes themselves and others arising out of complaints or criticism by some Deputies about the type ofmusic that was presented, that it was very low-class. I would like to know if there is any type of censorship on the sponsored programmes. That might be a harsh word. Perhaps censorship would not be the right word; but is there any type of vetting of those sponsored programmes, because as far as I could see they are foreign altogether to the type of music that is ordinarily presented by Radio Éireann. I am not one who will object to a certain amount of jazz, dance music and jitter-bug music, or whatever you like to call it, but I would point out that dance music and jazz predominate in the sponsored programmes. During the course of the debate on this Estimate last year, some Deputy suggested that the public wanted that type of music and that the sponsors knew they wanted it. I do not believe that that is so. I do not believe that these sponsored programmes cater for the general body of listeners in the country. It was suggested that the musical items which are played are played as a result of requests. May I point out, as I pointed out last year, that only a small number of sponsored programmes from Radio Éireann make their musical presentations by request? It is all very fine to say that the sponsors pay their money and that, therefore, they should be entitled to decide what type of music they will play. There should be some kind of control in this matter by the Director of Radio Éireann.

I often lean to the view that we have too many sponsored programmes from Radio Éireann. Occasionally, some of us tune in to Radio Luxembourg which is, I think, exclusively a sponsored programmes station. It can give its minutes or hours of enjoyment, but I do not think that anybody would suggest that it is an admirable station from the point of view of being a national station or that any of us would like to see Radio Éireann become an entirely sponsored programmes station. Do the sponsored programmes mean a great deal financially to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs? I do not know whether they do or not, but I suggest that if the financial aspect is not a very compelling factor the Minister shouldgo very slowly in regard to the extension of sponsored programmes. I humbly suggest that in a national radio station, where the aim is supposed to be the promotion of Irish culture and culture and the arts in general, if 20 per cent. to 25 per cent. of our programmes consist of sponsored programmes which are, in the main, jazz and dance music, we cannot boast that our radio station is, in fact, being used for the promotion of Irish culture and culture and the arts in general.

I want to congratulate whoever is responsible—I am sure the Minister did not do it himself—for the very fine arrangement that has been produced, I think by the symphony orchestra, of our National Anthem. Though we may not have done so in public, many of us have, on occasion, criticised privately among ourselves and to our friends the various arrangements we have hitherto heard of our National Anthem. In some of those arrangements the Anthem was played in jazz time, while in other arrangements it was played too slowly. All of those different arrangements managed to avoid doing what a National Anthem is supposed to do—to make those listening to it profoundly aware of the fact that it means something and symbolises something. One always thinks of a National Anthem as stirring people and reminding people of their country and of their heritage and of what their country stands for. In my view, the new arrangement of the National Anthem is a credit to Radio Éireann and to the gentleman or gentlemen responsible for the arrangement.

I am afraid that I only listen to the radio when I am in Wexford, and I must make this complaint now which may seem local in its character. It concerns interference. Last year the Minister spoke about electrical interference and he very reasonably suggested remedies to the public which would go a long way towards correcting it. With the introduction of so many new electrical machines and with people introducing washing machines, scrubbing machines, polishers, refrigerators and so forth into their homes, interference has become much more widespread and much morenoticeable in radio reception. The Minister stated that there was a campaign in his Department to try to seek out the root of this interference and to advise as to how best to remedy it. I do not know whether the Minister has any further information to give us on this matter when he is replying or whether he can tell us what success met their efforts in that campaign. In that connection, I wonder if the help of another very efficient body could be enlisted with a view to correcting or at least minimising the electrical interference which has become so widespread. I wonder if the aid of the E.S.B. could be enlisted by Radio Éireann in this respect?

The reception from Radio Éireann in Wexford town in the morning, afternoon and early part of the evening is pretty good. At night time, however, we seem to get all sorts of stations, from China right across to the U.S.A. It may be that this is a matter over which the Minister has no control. I suppose he is subject to international agreements or to an agreement with some international body with regard to the wavelength of Radio Éireann. Perhaps, when he is replying, he would give us some information as to the possibility of getting a more satisfactory wavelength or a stronger transmission or some other method by which interference from all these various foreign and very foreign stations that cut in from time to time can be eliminated from the Radio Éireann wavelength.

This Vote refers to wireless broadcasting but the subject of television has been introduced. I would be entirely behind the Minister and those who advise him to go slow in the matter of television. Undoubtedly television will affect the social life of this country. Television has not advanced nearly far enough for the Government or the people of this country to experiment in any small way with it. To say the best of it, any television reception which I have seen in this country was very bad. For anybody or for any group of persons to suggest that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs or the Government shouldadvance even a £10 note to experiment in the matter of television in this country would, I think, be just crazy. I know that the Minister does not need anybody to say this to him but I should like to say, in conclusion, that it should be a long time yet before either he, as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, or anybody else as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, should experiment in the matter of television in this country.

Let me at the outset support Deputy Corish in his appeal on behalf of wireless licensees who cannot take advantage of Radio Éireann because of interference. I know towns and villages throughout the country where a licensed radio owner, if he wishes to listen in to a broadcast, not merely from Radio Éireann but from other broadcasting stations, must first of all approach the local butcher and ask him to turn off the mincer or must ask the local garage proprietor to cut out the compressor. There should be no necessity for any radio licence holder to place himself in such a position that he is under a compliment to the owner of a mixer or a compressor. It is the duty of the Minister who receives the money for the radio licences to ensure that these licensees will get proper reception on their radio and, further, it should be the duty of the Minister to employ individuals to go round the country and find out who these pirates are and to put an end to the interference which they cause. That is something which the Minister should give serious consideration to in fairness to all those people who are paying the exact same licence fee as radio owners in Dublin City and elsewhere throughout the country.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on another matter. Two years ago, I appealed to the Minister to include in the news broadcasts from Radio Éireann information in connection with the fishing industry. I appealed to him to have broadcast each night and each morning information as to the catches and the price of fish landed at the various ports and the prices obtaining in the various marketsall over the country. The Minister has very kindly—and very wisely, if I may say so—included each morning the prices of fish from the Dublin market and the various other markets. I should like now to ask him to go further and to include in the broadcasts each night information as to the landings of fish so as to enable buyers, both retail and wholesale, to know when there is likely to be a glut on the market and where fish are procurable and also to let the housewife know whether she has been done in the eye by the retailer or the wholesaler. I appeal to him particularly to consider broadcasting the landings of fish each night at the various ports.

Rather a tough assignment.

No more tough assignment than collecting the soccer results from all over the Twenty-Six Counties and no more tough assignment than the G.A.A. have in collecting results from every parish in Ireland on Sunday night.

Or the prices on the stock exchange.

Yes, or the greyhound racing results from Celtic Park, Dunmore Park and other tracks in the country. It is not so very tough and it is of vital interest to the fishing industry, and I ask the Minister to reconsider the matter with a view to seeing what can be done.

Many speakers have spoken about the employment of the rural artistes in broadcasts. Until artistes are paid a proper fee, a fee which will enable them to come here to Dublin and pay travelling and hotel expenses, there is not the slightest hope of encouraging them to come here. I have known artistes from County Donegal who have received engagements to broadcast from Radio Éireann on a Monday afternoon or Monday evening. In order to be here for their broadcast, they would require to travel down on Saturday, remain in Dublin over the week-end, do the broadcast on Monday evening, and go back on Tuesday. For that, they are offered the magnificent sumof £4 4s. Od. That is not right. If we want these people to give us the benefit of the art they have, we must pay them. That is the only way in which we can secure their services, other than by having local broadcasts in rural Ireland, enough of which, in my opinion, we have not got.

Is the sum of £4 4s. Od. intended to cover their travelling expenses?

Everything. Is it any wonder we do not hear them? I should like to see more of these local artistes employed, but we must pay them if we want them, and, until we make up our minds that we must give them a fee, in addition to travelling expenses, we are not going to encourage them to give us the benefit of the arts which they have acquired or which God gave them.

Are they not travelling at a loss in these circumstances?

Of course they are. If Deputies wish to know why they do travel, it is because they are generally engaged by some gramophone company to make records, from which they secure royalties, and they depend on these royalties to compensate them for any loss they may incur. That is the only reason they come here. It was an honour at one time to be able to say that you broadcast, but when it hits the pocket, especially in these days, the honour is scarcely worth it.

I should like also to see school programmes, but they are absolutely useless until we have some liaison between the Department of Education and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs whereby sets will be installed in the schools. There is no use in broadcasting school programmes when the school has no means of receiving them. Certain societies and charitable organisations have provided the blind with free radio sets and there is no reason why the Department of Education should not provide free wireless sets, or provide sets on payment of a small contribution, to the schools, so that we could have proper school programmes broadcast each dayor on a number of days a week which would be of a highly educative value for pupils. It is a matter I recommend to the Minister. It is possibly a matter for the two Departments, but I think it is well worth considering.

We have had a lot of talk about television and I should like to see a television station in the country. There is no use in our pretending that television is only in its infancy. Within the past three weeks, I had the privilege of staying in a very large hotel where there was a television set in every bedroom, with 100 per cent. reception. Television is not in its infancy and it is one of the best methods of education available, apart from its entertainment value. There have been a number of inter-State agreements recently between the Government of the Six Counties and the Government of the Republic, and I should like to know if it would not be possible to arrive at some arrangement whereby an all-Ireland television broadcasting station could be set up. It is something which the Minister might consider, possibly not this year but in the future.

A lot has been said about the employment of non-nationals in Radio Éireann. I know nothing about that, but I do know that we exported to New Zealand an Orchestra leader second to none in the world, while we have imported a leader for the Radio Éireann Orchestra. That is something which is very hard to understand. There may be a reason for it but I find it most difficult to understand.

There is one thing on which we are all agreed in this House—we are all anti-Partitionists. Unfortunately, however, we are not making use of the one medium available to us to publish our views on anti-Partition.

All over the world by short-wave station.

Let us use the one we have first. We are not making proper use of it. There should be weekly—nightly, if possible—talks from Radio Éireann on this curse of Partition. I do not suggest that weshould be belligerent about it. There may be two sides to this question of Partition and there may be people in the Six Counties who think they have a proper answer to the arguments we put forward. They should be invited to come down here and to give talks setting out their views. The world and listeners generally can then decide on which side is right.

The listeners have not got much say in the decision, though.

The listener some day will record a vote which elects a representative to Parliament. That representative, in turn, elects a Government and in that way the listener has a say and may influence the member of Parliament in the country in which he resides. Not only would I have broadcasts by all speakers, Partitionists and anti-Partitionists, but I would have these broadcasts relayed through the United States of America. There is no reason why we should not be able to procure a short-time sponsored programme.

And a short-wave station.

Let us keep to the one we have got and make full use of it. Deputy Cunningham is trying to sidetrack me.

All I want to do is to make use of what we have got already. I know that if we put forward a demand for a short-wave station the Minister will say: "Where are we going to get the money?" While we are waiting for the short-wave station let us make use of the one we have got. Let us have these broadcasts relayed in America by way of taking a short-time sponsored programme even if we have to pay for it. Let records be made of that to be relayed all over the United States.

I think we would be spending money much more usefully in that way than in sending out anti-Partition leaflets to the converted. I think that even theordinary programmes should be interrupted now and again to remind listeners that anti-Partition views are held, not only by all the representatives in this Parliament here but that there are also anti-Partitionists in the Six-County Parliament and that a number of representatives have been elected to that Parliament solely for the purpose of abolishing Partition. These gentlemen from the Six Counties should be invited to come down here to express their views over the radio. Similarly the Partitionists should be invited to come down here to give their views. In that way we could put before the English-speaking world the evils which flow from the curse of Partition.

Ar an Vóta seo labhair Teachtaí eagsúla ar na nithe a bhaineas leis an Radio. Ní theastaíonn uaimse ach labhairt ar cheist amháin, sé sin ceist na Gaeilge ar an Radio. Sé mo thuairim gurb é an Radio an gléas is mó tábhacht agus an módh is feárr chun an Ghaeilge agus nithe Gaelacha eile d'athbheochaint. Éistíonn idir sean agus óg, go mór mhór an t-aos óg, leis an Radio. Ar an gcuma san tugann an Radio caoi don aos óg eolas níos fearr do chur ar an dteanga Ghaeilge, amhráin Ghaeílge, ceol Gaelach agus nithe a bhaineas le Gaelachas.

Tá suim ag na daoine sa Ghaeilge agus thug mé fé ndeara i rith na bliana go raibh feabhas tagtha ar an scéal. Bíonn comhrá ar siúl i nGaeilge roimh tosnú do na cluichí i bPáirc an Chrócaigh. Agus arís um thráthnóna tugtar achomaire ar na cluichí a himríodh i rith an lae.

Ní leor sin. Caithfear níos mó ama do thabhairt i rith an lae do cheisteanna a bhaineas leis an Ghaeilge, an Ghaeilge féin, ceol Gaelach, scéalaíocht, drámaíocht agus mar sin de sa Ghaeilge. Sé mo thuairim go bhfuil caoi ag na daoine éisteacht le nithe a craoltar ar ghléasanna craolta atá ag déanamh díobháil agus ba chóir dúinn ásáid a bhaint as ár Radio féin chun cur in a gcoinne.

Aontaím leis an méid adúirt an eachta MacFheórais i dtaobh na Cláracha faoi choimirce. Chomh fadais 'a chím níl aon fhocal Gaeilge ná aon amhrán i nGaeilge le cloisint orthu. Bíonn siad go léir i mBéarla. Tá fhios agam go bhfuil clár faoi choimirce amháin ann ar a mbíonn amhráin agus dánta, ach dánta agus amhráin i mBéarla is ea iad a bhaineas leis an dtír seo. Ach níl focal amháin Gaeilge le cloisint ar na cláracha seo. Is locht mór é sin. Ba chóir iachall a chur ar na comhluchtaí a cheannaíonn am ar an Radio roinnt dá chuid ama a thabhairt suas do amhráin i nGaeilge.

Rud eile, ní shílim go bhfuil cláracha fóirstineacha ann chomh fada is a bhaineas le páistí scoile ar chor ar bith. Sílim féin gur cheart cláracha fá choinne scoláirí, páistí fé bhun 12 bhliain d'aois a shimpliú agus a leathnú. Sílim gur mór an trua nach bhfuil caoi ag na páistí níos mó úsáid a bhaint as an Radio. Ní orthu atá an locht. Is ar lucht Radio Éireann atá an locht ná cuireann siad cláracha oiriúnacha ar siúl do na páistí.

Éistím féin leis an Radio tráthnóintí Sathairn agus Domhnaigh. Measaim féin go mbíonn caoi ag na páistí, thárla ná bíonn mórán obair scoile le déanamh acu, éisteacht leis an Radio an dá oíche sin ach ní bhíonn clír fóirstineach ar siúl dóibh. Sin é an príomh-phoinnte ar mhaith liom labhairt in a thaobh agus é cur ós comhair an Aire.

Labhair Teachtaí eile i dtaobh an Radio ach sílim nach bhfuil aon mhaith sa Radio, dá fheabhas é, muna mbaintear úsáid as chun na cluichí Gaelacha, na hamhráin Ghaeilge agus an ceol Gaelach do chur ós cóir na ndaoine agus na nithe sin do choimeád ós a gcómhair gach lá den tseachain.

In a discussion such as this Deputies are apt to give expression to extreme views in relation to different programmes and to express them in such a manner that it might be possible to identify certain people engaged by Radio Éireann. I think this is a matter about which we should be very careful, because, after all, we may express views here in relation to these matters that may be quite personal and that may not reflect the general opinion of the people of the country. In my contribution tothis debate I should like to express the desires of the people whom I meet and try to interpret their views on the various programmes. I find that other Deputies who have spoken have referred to points that I had intended to make. With them, I would compliment those responsible for giving us the morning news and extending the time on Radio Éireann. If we are to arrive at the point where Radio Éireann will take precedence over all other stations for listeners in this country, then we must give to our listeners as much radio time as any other station would give. However, we have made some progress towards that in recent years.

In regard to our news items, we should give a little more prominence to news that is of particular interest in this country. I do not mean that we should be completely insular and that we should not broadcast many of the happenings all over the world, but there are times when we are apt to go into too much detail on these matters. Recently there was one particular news item which was of great importance to many people in this country. Several people knew of it but some four items of completely foreign news were given before this item was reached. I suggest that those responsible should give a little attention to matters like that.

I consider that the topical talks have been extremely successful. The matter in them is of interest to most people. That is a matter which the radio authorities should bear in mind when arranging their programmes. After all, many thousands of people pay every year for the privilege of either being entertained or educated, and we should give very careful thought to providing the majority of them with something in every programme which would be of interest to them.

There has been some controversy about the type of plays we hear from Radio Éireann. I am interested on behalf of many of the amateur dramatic societies throughout the country, because they look to the broadcasting of many of these plays for some informationas to their content, as to the type of characters portrayed and the number of characters in them, whether male or female, to see whether it would be possible at some later date, when the rights would be available to them, to present any of these plays. They like to hear them so that they can come to some conclusion in that respect. There is no doubt but that some vulgarities have been broadcast in some recent productions, but I do not think that we should condemn the whole idea of presenting these plays in the strong terms which have been used. Now that such attention has been drawn to the matter, perhaps more care will be exercised in future in regard to them. There are, however, some people throughout the country who regard with some envy the theatre-goers of Dublin and the larger cities who have the privilege of seeing the new plays, and they would like to hear them on the radio. Perhaps when they hear them they do not think they are all they thought they were. But at least that is one way of giving to the people in the more remote districts the facilities which formerly were afforded to those lucky enough to be in proximity to the centres where these plays are produced.

Several Deputies referred to the niggardly expenses paid to amateurs who appear from time to time on the programmes. There is no doubt that, with travelling costs and hotel expenses as they are to-day, an increase is an absolute necessity if we are not to deter many good artistes from attaining prominence by taking part in plays broadcast from Radio Éireann.

Practically all the Deputies who contributed to this debate or to the debates in former years had one complaint in common and that is in relation to interference on the radio. It is pitiable on many occasions to see very fine programmes arranged and then find that it is impossible to hear them because of local interference. The radio is intended to transmit to listeners news from foreign parts, but I do not think it was ever intended that they should be made aware through the medium of the radio when the local cinema entertainment endsor when the local mills are operating. Many people in towns and villages can identify these occurrences over the radio. Whatever machinery is available to check these interferences should be put into motion to deal with them so that some satisfaction will be given to those who have to pay the increased licence fee.

I think that whoever is responsible should be commended for the presentation after the news of an account of the proceedings here in Leinster House. It is an item that many people listen to with interest and the manner in which it is presented is extremely fair. Perhaps in the course of time we will reach the point when we will have political discussions. If Great Britain and other countries can have them on the radio, why should we not have them? I am rather loath to refer to this because it has been advocated already by a Deputy who injected a considerable amount of animosity and spleen into his own contribution and, of course, the dread in everybody's mind will be that it might be availed of by somebody to do something similar. However, I am sure that we can have faith that the leaders on both sides of the House would take part in these discussions in a way that would be very interesting and instructive and educative for the general public.

I should also like the authorities to recognise the fact that many motorcars to-day are equipped with radio sets. Perhaps from time to time it would be possible to include in the programme some references which would be of help to such motorists. It might be possible to give warnings which would be of interest to them and perhaps improve matters in regard to road safety. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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