Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Nov 1953

Vol. 142 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 30—Local Government.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Smith)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £1,926,160 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1954, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government, including Grants to Local Authorities, Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, and Miscellaneous Grants.

The net amount being provided in the Vote for Local Government this year is £4,576,760 being £141,740 in excess of the provision made last year. The principal increases are £300,000 in the amount provided in respect of grants to private persons and public utility societies for the erection and reconstruction of houses, and £400,000 being a new free grant for the improvement of certain roads in the Gaeltacht and congested areas.

These and some other minor increases in certain sub-heads of the Vote are balanced to a large extent by a reduction in the Transition Development Fund grants to local authorities for housing schemes and sanitary services works. These reductions occur in the ordinary course of the liquidation of the Transition Development Fund which is being replaced by the extension of the loan charges subsidy system.

The Road Fund grants to county councils were increased in 1952-53 to £1,100,000 for main roads and £1,400,000 for county road improvement grants together with a grant of 40 per cent. of the amount expended by county councils on main road upkeep. The improvement grants were further increased by £300,000 for main roads and £300,000 for county roads in the current financial year. There is a further provision of between £100,000 and £200,000 for miscellaneous road and bridge works, which with the special grant of £400,000 make a total increase of some £1,200,000 in the subventions of road expenditure.

Local authorities completed 7,476 dwellings in 1952-53—almost 300 more than in the preceding year. The urban authorities, apart from Dublin Corporation, were particularly active in housing output during the year. They built 2,911 houses, this being the highest production figure on their part in any year since the war. The Dublin Corporation output was 2,200 dwellings as compared with 1,982 in the previous year. The number of houses completed by county councils as the housing authorities for the county health districts was less than in the preceding year but here also the general progress is satisfactory.

The need for some 70,000 dwellings estimated in 1947 has now been met to the extent of over 32,000 dwellings: 10,000 more are being built or comprised in tenders and sites have been acquired for a further 10,000. Thus, out of the 70,000 needs figure more than 52,000 dwellings are now built, in course of construction, being contracted for, or are to be commenced within a reasonable time.

It will be evident from this record of progress that a large number of the housing authorities have reached or are approaching the point at which they have fully satisfied the housing needs estimated to exist in their areas in 1947. In fact, about 50 local authorities have already reached that point or are in course of attaining it.

A fresh housing survey was completed some time ago in Cork County Borough, while in Dublin County Borough a new survey is also being undertaken. No doubt further surveys of this kind or other reviews of local needs will be made in other areas also where there is any uncertainty as to the accuracy of current estimates of needs. A decision as to the necessity for such surveys is a matter for the local authorities concerned.

The Dublin Corporation have built over 10,000 dwellings since 1947 but the programme still before them represents by far the greatest of any housing authority in the country. As their annual output of houses progresses, that output, taken in conjunction with the activities of private house builders in Dublin City and County, gives rise to serious problems in the planning of ancillary services and amenities. The planning difficulties encountered were not based on any fanciful or idealistic standards. They involved the coordination of other works programmes —water supply, sewerage, roads, road traffic, parks and children's playgrounds—all of which were essential to healthy and ordered community life in the new housing estates. The members of the various committees of the Dublin Corporation and the city manager and his assistants are fully alive to the need for uniform and simultaneous progress in all these public services, and I, as Minister for Local Government, and my advisers are always available for consultation and for giving any assistance that we possibly can.

Many of these difficulties have already been resolved and the present housing programme of the corporation, taken in conjunction with the other works in progress or proposed in thecity, represents a very impressive aggregate of public activity. I have every confidence that the annual housing output of the corporation for the next few years will at least maintain the high average set in recent years.

Last year I was pleased to be able to report considerable improvement in the housing progress in Cork City. That progress has continued at an increasing rate. Last year the corporation completed 299 houses as against the average annual output of 120 houses in the preceding five years. At the beginning of this financial year the corporation had 1,400 house sites available for the continuation of their programme.

The competition amongst building contractors for local authority housing work has improved considerably in recent times and the prices are consequently keener. Side by side with this my Department has contributed considerably to the achievement of greater economy in the design and planning of the housing schemes. I have reason to believe that these factors will help to lighten the cost of housing. There is, however, still scope for greater economy without impinging on the minimum housing standards set for local authorities.

Prospective progress in private house building is more difficult to assess than are the programmes of local authorities. The number of new house grants allocated under the Acts in 1952-53 was 4,910 as compared with 6,093 in the preceding year. For the first six months of the present financial year the number of new house grants allocated was 2,702, representing a slight increase over the corresponding 1952-53 figures, while the number of reconstruction grants allocated for the 12 months ended 30th September, 1953, has been 5,537 as compared with 2,908 in the corresponding previous 12 months.

The volume of housing activity not necessarily represented by current grant applications but also by grants already allocated to the 31st December last may be gauged from the provision of £2,000,000 made in the Vote underthis head in the present Estimates as compared with a total of £1,800,394 actually disbursed in 1952-53. The current figures regarding the trend of activity in private house construction and reconstruction are, therefore, encouraging. The evidence of continued and increasing activity in the matter of reconstruction is a welcome tendency in the rural areas where there is a wide field for beneficial improvements of this kind as well as for the provision and installation of private water supply and sewerage facilities for which grants are also provided in the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1952. There is evidence of a very keen interest in this latter type of grant but the extent of the demand cannot yet be estimated. As regards new house grants, I am particularly anxious that these grants, supplemented where necessary under the scheme of local authority grants introduced in the Act of 1952, will encourage those still most in need of better housing accommodation to build houses for themselves and in certain categories to lighten the burden of local authority housing.

Road Fund income for 1952-53 amounted to £3,874,000 as compared with £3,261,000 in 1951-52 and £2,814,000 in 1950-51. A further increase is expected in the present financial year of about £475,000 bringing the income to approximately £4,350,000, the greater portion of which is not likely to be received until the last quarter of the financial year. The annual loan charges in respect of the amount borrowed between 1948 and 1950 on the security of the Road Fund together with administrative charges will reduce the net amount available for payment of road grants to about £3,900,000. The liabilities outstanding at the 31st March last in respect or road maintenance and improvement grants amounted to £1,685,000.

I have already indicated that the main portion of the allocations for current work comprises £1,400,000 as a main road improvement grant; £1,700,000 as a county road improvement grant and a main road upkeep grant of 40 per cent. of the expenditureunder that head by county councils. In notifying the grants, it was impressed on all county councils that the proposed works on both main and county roads should be planned well in advance and that the annual programmes should be so designed as to constitute successive stages of a longterm general plan.

Grants totalling £150,000 were allocated last January from the Road Fund to the four county boroughs and the Borough of Dún Laoghaire. Furthermore, two of these bodies, the Dublin Corporation and Dún Laoghaire Corporation, have been notified that State grants will be available to them to carry out comprehensive programmes of road and bridge improvement works prepared by them for execution over a period of years. These works are estimated to cost £1,614,000 in Dublin County Borough and £625,000 in the Borough of Dún Laoghaire.

The question of the arterial roads leading from Dublin has also been under review and the Dublin County Council have been asked to examine the position and to submit a programme of the works of improvement which they are to undertake.

The position is under examination by all three authorities and detailed proposals are awaited.

The average monthly employment by county councils on road and bridge works by direct labour in 1952-53 amounted to 17,438 men as compared with 16,962 in the previous financial year. In addition, an average employment of 1,553 men was given on road and bridge works carried out by way of contract in 1952-53.

Sub-head Q contains the provision to which I have already made reference whereby £400,000 was made available for the purpose of making grants to local authorities for the improvement of certain roads in the Gaeltacht and congested areas. The schemes submitted from the counties concerned to the amounts required to absorb the grants have all been approved.

In the last financial year, work was commenced on 65 water works andsewerage schemes, while 70 schemes were completed. The schemes in progress in March last are estimated to involve a total cost of £2,595,550 as compared with £1,800,000 in March, 1952. The prospects indicate a continuance of works of this kind up to at least the present volume of activity for a considerable time to come. Shortly before the 31st March, 1952, work commenced by direct labour on the portion of the North Dublin drainage scheme comprising the laying of the intercepting sewer between Finglas and Raheny. In October, 1952, preliminary plans for the second section from Raheny to the outfall at Howth were approved. The acceptance of a tender for the carrying out of certain works along Sutton foreshore has since been sanctioned, and these works have commenced. Detailed documents for the remaining portions of this section of the scheme are in the course of preparation. Apart from the direct labour work, the entire scheme will comprise a total of 19 contracts and the all-in cost as at present estimated is over £1,600,000.

In the same period, work commenced on two of the contracts for the North Dublin regional water supply scheme. These relate to the laying of pipe lines from Finglas to a new reservoir at Ballycoolan and the construction of the reservoir. Deliveries of pipes have commenced for a third section comprising the laying of pipe lines from Ballycoolan to Blanchardstown and Castleknock, and for the extension of the scheme from Santry to Coolock. The documents relating to a further extension to Malahide have been approved.

The contract documents for the Dún Laoghaire main drainage scheme have been approved as have also preliminary plans for a joint scheme being promoted by the Dublin County Council and the Dún Laoghaire Borough Corporation to serve the Foxrock/Killiney district.

Other important sanitary services schemes approved in the same period included the construction of an additional reservoir for the Waterford waterworks system and a further section of the Galway main drainagescheme. Regional water supply schemes also sanctioned included two contracts in Kildare, the Loch Mourne waterworks scheme in Donegal and a scheme to serve Passage West and district.

An issue of £5,000,000 Dublin Corporation 5 per cent. stock redeemable in 1968/73 was made in February, 1953, at 98. The issue was underwritten jointly by the Minister for Finance and the banks. £3,316,590 stock was taken up by the public.

The Cork Corporation made an issue of £780,000 5 per cent. stock at 97 in June last. The issue was underwritten jointly by the Minister for Finance and the banks. The whole of the stock issue was subscribed.

The net indebtedness of local authorities increased in 1952-53 by about £14,000,000 and at the end of that year stood at £83,891,623.

The supply position in connection with commodities required by local authorities and obtainable under the combined purchasing system improved very considerably during the year. Supplies of all essential commodities became more readily available and the prices of many of them showed a substantial fall. The improved supply position enabled official contractors to be appointed for the supply of an increased number of commodities for the present contract year and the standards of quality of a number of important items were improved.

The publication of the textbook on local government law has been retarded by printing and other difficulties but it should be ready in a few months. Meanwhile the general preparatory work on the consolidation of all sections of the local government law is proceeding satisfactorily.

Mr. Sweetman

I move that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. Naturally enough, and correctly, the Minister devoted the larger part of his speech to a survey of the housing position, because it is in connection with housing that the main interest on this Estimate arises. When an estimate was being made in 1947, to which the Minister referred, of the housing needs that there werein the country the difficulty that was going to confront whoever was responsible then, be it Minister or local authority, was clearly, in the immediate future at that time, one of supply of material and possibly supply of skilled labour. That situation has, of course, entirely changed now. The problem we have now to face in regard to the completion of our housing programme is not at all a problem of supply. It is rather a problem of how to utilise the supply both in labour and in material that is there for utilisation.

Some time ago I endeavoured to get some statistics of the comparative age of the houses and dwellings that were in the country. Unfortunately, it is not possible to get statistics of a type that would enable us to judge how old on a statistical basis our houses were and how soon, therefore, they were likely to wear out. It does appear, however, that in the census of 1901 there were then in the country a total of 642,327 houses and that in the census of 1946 there were then a total of 654,767 houses, representing an increase of only 12,400 in the 45 years that had passed between 1901 and 1946.

It is not possible, again, to get particulars of all the houses that were erected in the same period, because there are no statistics at all that I can trace or that could be obtained for me in reply to a question, of houses built between 1901 and 1922; but from 1922 to 1948 there were built 115,300 houses. Therefore deducting from that figure 12,000, the approximate increase that was shown, it becomes clear that in the first half of this century very roughly 100,000 houses had become obsolete and had been replaced by more modern buildings. That figure, of course, includes any type of house, even the worst hovel that there was in the country, and the fact that there has been that increase does not in any way mean that the problem is even yet within sight of completion everywhere.

The problem that there is now, however, is not the problem that there was in 1947. The problem that there is now is one of building more modern houses at a price that will be withinthe means and within the income of the people who will be going into occupation of them. The Minister has indicated that in his view the operation of the various supplementary schemes by local authorities under the 1950 Act, as restricted by the 1952 Act, will assist people to build themselves rather than that local authorities should build for them. I personally hope very much that that is so, but I think that quite apart from that, having got over the difficulty of supply and material that there was in the earlier post-war years we should now apply ourselves to the problem of the cost, and the problem of bringing the cost of the houses, whether it is by way of rent or by way of annuity to redeem the principal and interest, within the means of the people who are going into these houses. So far as I can see there has been no inquiry at all into that general housing problem since what I might term the Colivet Inquiry which reported in 1943. That inquiry, though reporting in 1943, was, of course, dealing almost entirely with pre-war problems. The actual work that was done during the war was not of any very great value for comparison purposes or otherwise, as it was clearly emergency work, finishing to some extent contracts that had been begun before and doing a little work here and there wherever a little material was available.

As I say, without a factual inquiry of some sort here it would be almost impossible to assess how our costs have varied since pre-war days and whether anything more could be done to reduce costs in simplification of design while keeping comfort and standards to a reasonable level. There was across the water a committee set up to investigate that problem of cost and to keep it under investigation. While the figures that were reported there would not be comparable with those that we might have here, yet I would like the Minister when he is concluding to tell us whether from the information available to him in his Department, he is able to say whether the trend here follows more or less the same lines as the trend there.

In the report of that committee, which is called the "Cost of House Building, Third Report", published in 1952, they set forth that the cost of building a three bed-roomed house had risen by approximately three times from 1939 to 1947, that apparently the cost had gone up from £400 per house to approximately £1,200 per house; and to account for a large share of that increased cost, they found that there was an increase of 45 per cent. in the number of man-hours which were required to build a comparable house in 1947 compared with 1939. They found that that increase was equivalent to a decline of 31 per cent. in output per man. I would not think that those figures would have the same relevant effect here. I think that here our increase would not have been represented by the same decline in output and that, in fact, what one might term the organisation of house building—leaving aside the difficulties of supply in 1947—has probably improved here with the years rather than diminished.

Continuing on the figures that they gave in their report, they computed the building cost in October, 1947, at £1,242 and the total costs, including site costs and professional charges, at £1,400. In October, 1949, that increase had gone from £1,242 to £1,321 with a total cost, including site cost, and so forth, of £1,550. In October, 1951, it had again risen to £1,450 and £1,690, respectively. So far as I can analyse the figures given in that report, the floor space of the houses increased during the period that is covered by only 21 square feet—from 1,029 square feet to 1,050 square feet. Therefore, we may take it that the figures they give are more or less comparable for the same type of house. That striking increase in cost brought clearly to mind the essential task of producing some type of better organisation, some better simplification of design while keeping comfort and modern standards, which would mean that the rising cost would be reduced as far as possible.

While I appreciate that the Department criticise and consider plans of local authority houses from the pointof view of trying to make suggestions that will assist from an economic point of view, nevertheless I think it will be agreed on all sides that not enough is done in that respect. I think it is undeniable that there could be even better organisation of work in the building industry, even better simplification of design, that would have a substantial effect in restraining further increases in cost, if nothing more. Undoubtedly, the fact that there has been a freezing of competition, that there is now very much more competition for tenders for work by local authorities, has meant that comparative costs have declined to some extent but the costs have not declined sufficiently to meet the economic difficulty of the people who will be going in to live in these houses. I would suggest to the House that it is to that problem that we should devote ourselves if we are going to go on with the solution of our housing problems.

I found some difficulty in following the Minister's view that there was not going to be a decrease in housing activities. I agree with him, of course, when he says that local authority housing is only a part of the problem. It is a part of the problem which was, of necessity—with the supply position as it was in 1948, 1949 and 1950—the larger part. It will not be the larger part perhaps in the future and it is essential that we should consider carefully everything we can do to make certain that private building is enabled to carry on and provide the service for our people at the minimum cost.

I do not quite understand the Minister's reference to the increase of £300,000 in the Estimate, on the one hand, for grants under the Housing Act of 1948 and his figure in which he suggests that the allocations of housing grants more or less are running on the same level as last year. It would seem to me that the two are contradictory rather than that they are indications of the same trend.

So far as private building is concerned there was introduced some time ago—I am not quite clear exactly when—a very desirable system by virtue of which, when a block application is made for the development of ahousing estate, grants are allocated at a smaller fee for the approval if the whole estate is applied for at the one time. Naturally, the effect of that to me is that there is a substantially larger application for grants and, therefore, applications for grants in advance of the actual work. Unless that it so, when we take into account the decrease that there is in employment in the industry, it is impossible to reconcile the grant position with the number of persons who are employed.

Incidentally, in passing and in dealing with this problem, might I say that I think it is probably not at the door of the Minister's own Department that the blame might be laid, but might I protest at the delay in the issue of the report of the Department? The last report issued, so far as the Library shows, is that for the year ending 31st March, 1951. Now, two and a half years afterwards, we might expect a report. I am sure that the Minister will tell us that that is the Stationery Office and the printing end of it, but it is an inordinate delay and it materially hinders consideration of the problem.

If we look at the Statistical Survey,published a short time ago by the Statistics Office, we find that unemployment in the general building trade rose between 1950 and 1952 from 9.6 per cent. to 11.8 per cent. In respect of bricks, building materials, pottery and so forth, unemployment rose from 3.3 per cent. to 4 per cent. It also rose in respect of other construction works from 16.1 per cent. to 17 per cent. There cannot be that rise in unemployment, as reflected in the statistics—there cannot be the evidence that all of us have individually witnessed in various parts of the country of substantial unemployment in the building trade—and yet be the continuance of building at the same level that the Minister has suggested in the speech which he has just delivered. The only way in which I could reconcile the figures about grants is in respect of allocation being made in advance for large and substantial blocks in order to get the grants allowed at the lower rate.

If one takes the figures in respect of those sites which have been acquired but which have not yet been developed —excluding, as I think we must, Dublin, because it seems to me that the problem in Dublin City is entirely different from the problem in the rest of the country—it would seem that, so far as local authority housing is concerned in a substantial part of the country, these bodies feel that it is unnecessary for them to develop to the full those further sites and that they visualise a very substantial slowing up. Everything, therefore, points to the fact that we have to make the position easier, that there will have to be an inducement for the person who is going to purchase under the Small Dwellings Act and that the cost of purchasing under that Act will not be prohibitive and will not be more than he feels he can afford.

From time to time, various assessments have been made as to what proportion of income should be devoted to housing costs. Recently, when Deputy Briscoe, Deputy Corish, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government and I were in Canada, the Parliamentary Secretary and I made some inquiries as to costings there, particularly in relation to income. The figures, of course, would only be of value as percentages, because incomes, when translated from dollars to sterling, mean very little. I did ascertain there, however, that the National Housing Board set up under their housing Act gave the advice in all their pamphlets that what a person was going to have to pay for interest on the purchase price of his house, for his rates and taxes, should not exceed 20 per cent. of income.

When we speak here of the percentage of income that is to be attributed to the cost of a house we never think of it in terms of anything but pure rent. Perhaps on account of differential schemes as such we are inclined to think of our percentages in terms of rent and not inclined to think of them as a bulk global figure which includes rent, rates and taxes. The differential rent schemes all over the country differ in individual cases, runningfrom one-tenth of the income in the very low income groups up to onesixth, but again that relates purely to rent, as such. I wonder if the Minister has any comparative figures to show what is the proportion of income which, by and large, works out as the general level in respect of rent, rates and taxes in any particular area.

Mr. Hickey

What is included in the 20 per cent. you mention?

Mr. Sweetman

Rates and taxes, as well as rent. It is not comparable, therefore, with our rent alone.

Mr. Briscoe

It is comparable.

Mr. Sweetman

If you add the figures, but not comparable with the straightforward figure for a differential rent.

Mr. Briscoe

The ordinary rent of the corporation includes rates and taxes.

Mr. Sweetman

It is added to the rent, but is not included in the figure upon which the rent is assessed as a proportion of income. What happens under all the differential rent schemes here is that the rent is taken as a proportion of income and then one-fifty-second of the rates payable is added to the rent.

Mr. Briscoe

You are not talking of Dublin, of course.

Mr. Sweetman

That is the case in Dublin, too. In Dublin, in the first assessment of the tenant's rent, the rates are not brought in. The weekly rent figure is struck as a proportion of the income going into the house and then there is taken a proportion of the yearly rates, which is added to the weekly rent figure. The Deputy is a member of the Dublin Corporation and I am not. I have only the figures the Dublin Corporation sent down to us in Kildare as being their figures when we wanted to compare our differential rent scheme with the differential rent schemes of other local authorities. We were assured that that was the way the corporation operate it. If we wereassured incorrectly, no doubt the Deputy will be able to indicate in what respect it is incorrect.

Mr. Briscoe

When were they sent down?

Mr. Sweetman

Six to nine months ago. Deputy Harris will agree with me that it was somewhere around the time we were making our rates estimate.

Mr. Briscoe

Did they include the children's allowances?

Mr. Sweetman

Certainly. We do, too, but the proportionate rent computation on income does not include rates. They are added afterwards and I think the Deputy, though he is a member of the Dublin Corporation, will find that is the way these figures are arrived at.

Another thing we found done there was that the National Housing Board loans, which would be the equivalent of our small dwellings loans, provide that people earning wages pay their interest or annuity monthly rather than half-yearly. So far as I know, that is not usual here and I think it is an arrangement of which advantage might be taken here to ensure that people will not have to meet in a lump sum a heavy impost. Theoretically there is no difference between paying a certain amount once in six months or spread over six separate months, but we all know that in practice it is a very considerable advantage to wage earners to be able to pay over a period.

They also have an arrangement that farmers who are borrowing for building their houses can, if they so desire, make their repayment instalments fall due at the particular time of the year at which their type of farming brings in their return. In the grain areas it would be immediately after the harvest, and so forth. They can opt at the time of taking their loan and buying their houses for the date they would wish their instalments to fall due so that it will coincide with the time at which, in the normal course, they have their funds.

We were told there also that their estimate of what they could cope with —having a bearing on the matter to which the Minister referred in relation to planning difficulties, the co-ordination of other works programmes of building—was an annual increase of 3 per cent. on the dwellings in any particular area; that if there was an urban area of 10,000 dwellings and their servicing of new dwellings was to keep pace with the building, a figure of 3 per cent. was about what they could manage. I should like if the Minister would give us some indication of how that would compare with our experience here. I noticed that the Minister, when referring to the coordination of building work programmes, presumably was referring only to works that were directly under his Department. Of course, there would also be the question of schools, churches and transport facilities which would have a very substantial effect on new housing estates and new housing schemes.

In the encouragement of private building, there is a very much better system of plans provided. For a dollar it is possible to purchase a book—I suppose that is the best way to describe it—of plans of 67 different types of houses. I do not profess to be an expert on plans but I think that people here who intend to build houses themselves speak—I was going to say with derision—not in very flattering terms of the plans provided by the Department. I think there is very great room for improvement in the way of bringing out more attractive plans and providing a very much greater variety of designs. The number of plans that are available is small. Certainly if a much wider variety of plans were made available for purchase through the Stationery Office in Dublin or through some other agency down the country, it would substantially encourage building. There might be, perhaps, the objection that if we did publicise plans too much, people would be inclined to depend on them too much and that they would not get sufficient skilled attention for the buildings. I think that the competition which exists in the building industry to-day will act as a brake in that respect comparedwith what might happen if we were back to the difficult supply position that obtained in 1948 and immediately afterwards.

I think that Deputy Lynch, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, will agree with me, as we discussed the matter there, and that Deputy Corish and Deputy Briscoe will also agree that, as regards the facilities provided, the ordinary traditional house built here is infinitely preferable to that which is built for the person of smaller means in Canada. I was somewhat disappointed in that connection that we did not have some statement from the Minister with regard to his experience at the housing congress which he attended in Lisbon. Because of the plentiful supplies of timber in Canada, the tendency there was very much towards timber erections that would not last so long and the roofing materials were bitumen felt. If we were to put such materials on houses built by local authorities here, I rather think that the Minister or any member of a local authority who would advocate the use of these materials would hardly get away with his life.

Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll

They are being put on houses built privately in this country.

Mr. Sweetman

Roofs with bitumen felt?

Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll

Yes.

Mr. Sweetman

The Deputy may be satisfied with that but I do not think it is going to be a very lasting job. Secondly I think it would increase the risk of fire substantially and, thirdly, maintenance costs would be substantially greater.

Mr. Hickey

And we have slate quarries in abundance.

Mr. Sweetman

It seems to me that so far from being an advantage, to utilise bitumen felt as roofing material would be distinctly a retrograde step. I have no personal experience of how the costs work out but I think that even if one did save a very substantial amount of money in doing it, it would be a saving very dearly bought.

Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll

The maintenance costs should be very little.

Mr. Sweetman

Has the Deputy any experience of the cost of maintenance of a felt roof? I have had, in the case of outhouses, and I know how big the cost is because inevitably such roofs on outhouses require very much greater attention than a slate, a tile or an asbestos roof. I do not see any reason why the cost of maintenance would be any different in the case of a dwelling-house. I imagine it would be rather greater. Perhaps I am wrong in that respect and that some architect or engineer would be able to give a more accurate estimate. It is not a development that I should like to see here anyway as, undoubtedly, such roofs would have a shorter life and they would materially increase the risk of fire.

I do not suppose that the rate of interest on small dwellings loans is entirely a matter for the Minister. I am not quite clear, the rate being governed by the rate laid down for loans from the Local Loans Fund as determined by the Minister for dis-Finance, whether it is matter for discussion on this Estimate other than by way of a passing reference to the cost of houses. As I understand it, the Minister is not the person who fixes the rate of interest but of course it does have a very substantial effect on costs. We had all been hoping to see, without going into the financial problems of last year, now that interest rates have been reduced this year by at least one quarter per cent., that there would have been a comparable reduction in advances from the Local Loans Fund particularly for small dwellings loans, but so far we have not seen any such announcement. As I may not discuss the matter directly on this Estimate, I would urge on the Minister that it is one of the things that it is absolutely essential we should do, to give the necessary encouragement in the erections of small dwellings and to decrease the costs for people who desire to acquire such dwellings.

Mr. Hickey

Would it not be worth while raising it on this Estimate?

Mr. Sweetman

Unfortunately the rates for loans from the Local Loans Fund are fixed by the Minister for Finance and, therefore, I do not think the matter is entirely relevant to this debate. Of course the whole problem of housing is governed by the question of cost. We all understand that, but I understood that, while one might make a passing reference to it, one could not discuss interest rates as such on this Estimate.

There is another thing which I think is desirable of extension throughout the country. Many people in various parts of the country would be quite prepared to build their own house, particularly adjacent to towns, if they were able to get a site. In Dublin, sites are developed more en bloc,but in the country there is none of that block development at all. There was, I think, under the Act of 1950, which was introduced by Deputy Keyes, provision that local authorities could, if they desired, buy sites and lease or sell these sites to private individuals who propose to build with the assistance of the Small Dwellings Act or otherwise. I do not know how far that power has been exercised throughout the country, but it would be a desirable power, I submit, and one which the Minister should urge local authorities to extend as far as possible.

In Kildare we did that in respect of one site at Droichead Nua and I think those Deputies who come from the South will agree that it is a nice scheme and was worth while doing. In other areas I have frequently come across people who are quite prepared to erect their own house with the assistance of the grant and a Small Dwellings Act loan, but it was utterly impossible for them to get a site. I urge, therefore, that local authorities should be asked to give early consideration to acquiring sites for the purpose of letting these sites, either by way of long lease or by way of direct sale to people anxious to buy.

The difficulty about the direct sale is that the capital cost of the site cannot be included in the assessment of value for the Small Dwellings Act loan and therefore it increases the deposit which the person has to putdown. The only way of dealing with it so far as we could find was to make a lease for a period of years at what would be the equivalent of the interest by way of annuity to repay the cost of the site and thereafter at a nominal one shilling a year, which had the effect of doing exactly the same thing and yet did not contravene the terms of the Act.

Apart from the question of housing, the Minister adverted to the amounts that were being made available for grants for roads and employment on roads and bridges. I notice however that he did not make any references to the Local Authorities (Works) Act. One of the worst features of this Estimate is the fact that the amount under sub-head K for the execution of works under the Local Authorities (Works) Act has been reduced from £650,000 to £400,000. Last year in his reply the Minister defended the decrease that there had been in the Estimate by saying that he had seen some work carried out under that Act that had not been satisfactorily done. I am quite sure that many of us in respect of any single side or section of local authority or central Government work could point to something that was not done very satisfactorily.

I have seen recently road work carried out in a particular way under the direct instructions of the Department and before it was even concluded it was found that the departmental instructions, while excellent apparently for certain types of foundation, were entirely unsatisfactory for that foundation and therefore the work had to be ripped up. I do not on that account propose to condemn the entire system of road construction, but that was the analogy that the Minister was applying to the drainage work done under the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

All of us, whether we are on these benches or on the benches opposite, have agreed without question that there was a lot of extremely valuable work done under that Act. I remember that one of the people who was agitating for something like that at the time was Deputy Corry, who wanted power for the Cork County Council to do work such as was givento local authorities under that Act.

Not merely has the Minister kept to the reduced figure of last year but he has brought the figure down again this year by a further £250,000. When the Minister is comparing the employment that might be given on roads and bridges I think it would be fairer if he took the figures for employment on roads, bridges and drainage works by county councils and compared the figures of the employment that would be given one year with another in respect of those three sections of work rather than two sections alone.

I have before me the position in 1950. There were then 18,300 people employed on roads and bridges and there were 11,200 employed on works under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. These are the average figures for that year. In the following year the figures were 17,900 and 8,100, respectively. If the Minister took the addition mentioned in his speech when reviewing last year he would find, if he took the bulk employment of all three, the figure would be reduced very substantially indeed.

I think the reduction under sub-head K is a very retrograde step and that the Minister should make certain when framing the Estimate for next year that he will take issue with the Minister for Finance and see that in his Estimate for 1954-55 the amount of money provided for the work that still remains to be done of that productive type will be restored to its former figure, or at any rate to a substantial proportion of it.

Other Deputies, I am sure, have had, as I have had, complaints made to them about the delay in the payment of grants to local authorities on the one hand and to individuals on the other hand. One of the greatest hindrances in getting small contractors to do building work throughout the country is the fact that they feel that grants will not be paid to them punctually for the work they are undertaking. While I admit that the delay is not as bad as it was this time last year, when it was appalling, nevertheless I think there is still very substantial room for further improvement.

The worst problem that is affectinglocal authorities in respect of existing houses is the question of repair. The Minister did not indicate in his speech that he had any solution in his mind for that. It seems to me that the only possible solution is that local authorities would make an all-out drive to put their houses into proper repair and, when they have done that, give every encouragement and assistance to the tenants who occupy them to purchase them. In that connection, looking at the number of cottages that are vested—I do not know whether or not it is due to the influence of the Minister or the Cavan County Council—I see that the Cavan County Council has, perhaps, the highest percentage of cottages vested throughout the country.

Mr. Smith

It is wonderful what good influence and good example mean.

Mr. Sweetman

I was wondering whether it was Senator Baxter or you.

Mr. Smith

He is only a child in local matters.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.