Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 May 1956

Vol. 157 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 10—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following Resolution:—

That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance. —(Minister for Finance.)

Mr. Killilea

I was dealing with the Taoiseach's speeches both during and since the Budget of 1952. The Taoiseach told us about the unjust and unnecessary toll of taxation. He told us about the comparatively trivial reliefs. We heard, of course, about our austerity proposals. But, as I have already said, we have heard nothing from him since he resumed office to show that these things were wrong. If they were wrong then, the Taoiseach has since had the remedy in his own hands. The Taoiseach could have got his Government to rescind those taxes and do all the things he said should be done in order to right the position. The Taoiseach is, of course, prepared to make speeches; he is also prepared to sit about and take no action.

We have listened time and again to all the Ministers on our present financial position. We have heard a good deal of talk about the balance of payments. Deputy MacBride has been very vocal and some little bit of heed seems to have been given to his utterances in relation to the collecting and spending of our external assets. I remember when the Government floated their second last loan. We were told here and down the country that that loan was an indication of the confidence the people placed in this Government. The Minister had quite a different story to tell the other day when he said: "In December, however, the Dublin Corporation issue of £6,000,000 attracted little public support." Do the Government realise now that if the previous loan, which proved a success, was a vote of confidence in the Government, the failure of subsequent loans is a vote of no confidence in the Government? We were told that the last Government loan was not fully subscribed. We know that only 40 per cent, was subscribed and that the banks had to be called upon to put up the remainder—the banks that Deputy MacBride wants to wipe out of existence, the banks that have been abused by every member of the present Government, when it suited them to do so.

I do not know very much about this banking business, except in so far as I have to try to meet my bank manager the best way I can; but I would say that if one approaches a bank manager, it is not wise to go in with a hammer in one's hand and threaten to hit him on the head. The way to approach a bank manager, or banks, is not the way of wild attack. The way to create confidence in the people is not by way of attacking the banks.

When we in Fianna Fáil set out, shortly after coming into office, to build up industries here, it was not by attacking those who had money to invest that we hoped to achieve success in that direction. The task was a pretty big one. We had, first of all, to encourage those who had money to invest their savings in these industries. At the same time, we had to ensure that the workers employed in those industries would receive a wage which would encourage or induce them to remain at home, rather than go abroad. It was not by wild attacks on those who had the money to lend that we achieved the success we did. If this Government had to face that task, I do not think they would do so by attacking the people they wished to come to their rescue, should they fail to find the money elsewhere. They would not succeed by attacking the people prepared to advance the money. I want to move away from that now.

Mr. O'Donovan

Should we not discuss it at all?

Mr. Killilea

I am speaking for myself now and I want to come to something that is of considerable importance in my constituency. I have heard a good deal of talk from Deputies here about the prosperity of the country at the present time, about the employment position—more employment, and all the rest of it. I wonder if there is any Deputy from my constituency who could sincerely subscribe to that view? I wonder if there is any Deputy from my constituency who can get up here and say that from the town of Tuam, since the end of January last, when the work that Fianna Fáil had put under way in relation to the building of schools and houses and so forth came to an end, hundreds and hundreds of unemployed workers have not emigrated. Deputies from my constituency know that they have emigrated and they know that there are others walking around, looking for even an hour's work, if they can get it. The position, therefore, is that unemployment is worse to-day than it ever was.

Mr. O'Donovan

What? Say that again.

Mr. Killilea

It is worse to-day than ever it was.

Mr. Donnellan

Six thousand less.

Mr. MacCarthy

Short hours.

Mr. Killilea

The vast majority have gone away. They are not here. Unfortunately, we cannot get from anybody the exact numbers who have emigrated to find employment because the figures are not segregated. We have no true record which would give us an exact picture of the numbers who have gone to seek employment. But each of us knows in his own heart the number who have gone and that number must be added to the unemployed register.

Mr. Donnellan

That never happened until this year?

Mr. O'Leary

Is the beet factory there still?

Mr. Killilea

The Deputy knows the beet factory gives employment, and good employment, for a couple of months in the year. That is all.

Mr. O'Leary

It is there, anyway. It has not been done away with. We grow beet in Wexford for it.

Mr. Killilea

Then the Deputy should know something about it.

Mr. O'Leary

It is still there.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Killilea. Deputy O'Leary has already made a statement. He should be satisfied with that.

Mr. Killilea

The beet factory works only for a couple of months in the winter, and the Deputy must know that. It does not give employment during the rest of the year. It gives a certain amount, but nothing like it gives during the campaign. The numbers have increased. We may not have them actually parading at the labour exchanges, but we must take the number that have emigrated and add it to the number of unemployed here to see what is the true picture. If all the people leave this country and seek employment in another country, we cannot say that we are making progress or that we are better off. We were promised an industry there and, I think, if it came like a streak of lightning, the Parliamentary Secretary would admit that it would not be too soon now.

Mr. Donnellan

Let the Deputy try and sabotage it now if he can.

Mr. Killilea

It would be far from me to sabotage it. The Parliamentary Secretary need not be looking for a way out. I am not going to sabotage anything. I do say that anything that can be done by this Government to give a bit of employment in my constituency at this moment would be welcomed by the workers as a whole. Whoever brings that along will be hail-fellow-well-met with the whole lot of them.

I have nothing more to say except to remark that the speeches we have listened to here are not a reflection of the opinions expressed by the people in the country. There is no cheering or clapping for this Budget at all. Of course, Fianna Fáil supporters did not expect anything from this Government, but there were other sections who were led to believe that they would have concessions. Now it has been brought home to them quite clearly that this Government have just been bluffing them all along the line and are continuing to do so. To try to tell them that the taxes imposed in this Budget are not going to hit our people hard is only fooling them further and it cannot be done. They have to part with their cash to buy their cigarettes, to meet the increase on fuel oil and whatever charges the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs decides to put on, as well as the increase on matches and the other commodities. They may be termed as luxuries to-day, but we all know they were not termed luxuries by members of that Government some years ago.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Donnellan)

I often heard of people having faces of brass, but if ever such a thing happened, it occurred in the Fianna Fáil Party, especially in the case of Deputy Killilea who has just spoken. They talk about the cost of living. As far as I know, the cost of living is made up of the price of the bag of flour, the couple of pound of tea, the pound of sugar, the pound of butter and the loaf of bread. If our people have plenty of those, they will not die. Yet we hear Deputy Killilea and the Fianna Fáil Party talking about how this Budget has increased the cost of living. Because the Minister for Finance had to put a certain increase on the price of petrol, tobacco and cigarettes, the inter-Party Government have put the cost of living sky-high! They have not interfered with the price of bread; they have not interfered with the price of flour; they have not increased, but since they came in here have reduced, the price of butter; they have not interfered with, regardless of what Deputy Corry may say, the price of sugar——

Mr. McGrath

And the child's bottle of lemonade.

Mr. Donnellan

There has been a little increase in the commodities I have mentioned, such as petrol, cigarettes, tobacco, matches, and the penny on the paraffin oil that Deputy Killilea spoke about. I go down to Galway too. He said he met a lot of people there last week and that they must be gone mad in North Galway. Certainly I met ten to every one Deputy Killilea met. I met taxi drivers. According to Deputy Killilea they should get special concessions— when Fianna Fáil is out of office. When they are out of office, Deputies opposite look for special concessions for everybody, but when they are in office, they have a face as hard as a blacksmith's anvil.

From 1943 to 1948, I looked across at them on this side of the House for two or two and a half years, with the "busted flush" that has now "busted" to all ends of the world. What was the view on farming of some of the "busted flush" that supported Fianna Fáil at that time? What was the view of the then Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee, when bringing in his Budget here? Poor Deputy Killilea was worried about cattle at the fair of Tuam. I sold a few cattle there, my father before me sold cattle and, please goodness, my son will sell cattle, too. Ninety per cent. of the people who sold and bought their cattle there, long before Deputy Killilea knew where the town of Tuam was, were satisfied if they got £50 or £52 for their cattle. They are the class of people to whom the Minister for Agriculture referred here—the people who reared their own. It is not the fellow who does the jobbing or the "tangling" that matters; it is the man who rears his own, and he is the man, as was pointed out by the Minister for Agriculture, who will always get on in this country, and not the "tangler." If the 5/- "tangler" is disappointed in the fair of Tuam and if Deputy Killilea is worried about him, I am not one bit.

Mr. O'Malley

On a point of order. What have "tanglers" at the fair of Tuam to do with the Budget? I was kept very strictly to order when speaking last night.

Mr. Donnellan

We do not want Cromwell over here at all.

An Ceann Comhairle

Standing Orders are applied equally to everybody and, so far, the Parliamentary Secretary has not travelled outside Standing Orders or been irrelevant.

Mr. Briscoe

The Parliamentary Secretary has not moved outside of Tuam, as far as I can see.

Mr. Donnellan

I remember going to the fair of Tuam in the early days when Fianna Fáil was in power. A similar beast to the beast I sold on the 10th March last at £52 10s. I sold at that time for £3 10s.; and I defy Fianna Fáil to deny that. I was a member of Fianna Fáil at one time.

Mr. Briscoe

That was most patriotic of the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Donnellan

I remember not so long ago Deputy MacEntee introducing a Budget here and he said taxation was lying lightly on the land. I was sitting over there where poor Deputy Killilea is now. I began to sweat and worry what was the next thing that would happen the farmers. What was Fianna Fáil going to do? What plan had they up their sleeve now, after having introduced a Budget in which they increased the price of his tea, his sugar, his bread, his flour, his tobacco, his cigarettes, and the famous pint about which Deputy Killilea spoke? They had all gone up—and taxation lay lightly on the land! I thought that that was one of the raving lunacy statements—by that I mean statements made without any consideration—that Deputy MacEntee very often used to make. Later on came a bolt from the blue—the farmers again—and who was involved? One of the "busted flush" who has gone out of existence now.

Mr. O'Malley

Deputy Byrne?

Mr. Donnellan

No, Deputy Dr. Noel Browne, who joined Fianna Fáil. He made a statement in the House which shows how this was all premeditated. At column 2335, Volume 129 of the Official Debates of the 19th March, 1952, he is reported as having said:—

"...the farmers must be given to understand that unless they are prepared to take on the responsibility of developing their holdings to their maximum the Government will have to take control and reallocate the land to those who are prepared to make the best use of it."

Mr. McGrath

Did he say anything about compensating them?

Mr. Donnellan

Not a damn word about it. The land was going to be taken from them. All of this was evolved by Deputy MacEntee but the other boys put in an odd spur as a reminder. There were even worse suggestions than that against the farmers. The same Deputy made another speech in this House and was supported by Deputy Seán Flanagan of the Fianna Fáil Party. He said at column 617, Volume 137, of the Official Debates of the 18th March, 1953:—

"One must do something about agriculture. One must tax the farmers. One must get more of the money that passes between farmers at fairs and that never goes near the banks."

Do you see the point? It never goes near the banks! According to that, Fianna Fáil believe they should raid the homes of the people in rural Ireland and see if there is anything left in the stocking, as we say in Galway. He goes on to say in the same column:—

"Everybody knows that the money is there... Nobody will make any attempt to get it. The larger part of our farming community pays no income-tax."

If Fianna Fáil were in power to-day, if Deputy MacEntee was where I am standing and Deputy Killilea was outside the barrier, there would be a Budget brought in here and it would not be an increase of a few pence in petrol, an extra ½d. on matches, an extra few pence on tobacco or cigarettes. It would be: tax the farmers. Deputy Dr. Noel Browne continued:—

"It is living in the eighteenth century, yet it is the farmers who get free grants and all sorts of other benefits..."

There was the policy of Fianna Fáil as enunciated in this House, and the moment he sat down, Deputy Seán Flanagan, who was not on the sideline at that time, stood up and said that it was a privilege to speak after Deputy Dr. Noel Browne. Deputy Killilea is the last man who should talk about the farmers. Deputy Killilea referred to the best day that ever happened the farmers of this country and said what a rosy picture there was in 1954. The rosiest picture that the farmers of this country ever saw was in June, 1954, when those boys were marched across the floor of the House. That was the rosiest picture that the farmers and the agricultural community could ever see.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary should refer to the members of this House as Deputies.

Mr. Donnellan

Some of those to whom I refer are ex-Deputies and there are a few who will be ex-Deputies later on. Deputy Killilea is worried about rural electrification. In his own area in Galway, unfortunately for him, nearly everybody has got electricity. I think 90 per cent. of the people in North Galway have had their houses wired up, thanks to the efforts of Deputy McGilligan back in 1948 and to our efforts at the present time. The Deputy says the people still have to work the stove to boil a kettle of water. Is not the old turf fire that was there in the Deputy's time and in my time still there, so that the people are not depending on the stove to boil a kettle?

I listened to Deputy Killilea when he referred to the terrible position in which the people of Galway and the West of Ireland were placed on account of the reduction in the price of wheat and also the price of barley. I was also listening to Deputy Moran, of South Mayo, just across the river from Deputy Killilea and myself, and he said that the price of barley and of feeding stuffs for feeding pigs had gone too high. What way do they want it? Surely if you want the price of barley, which is the chief item for pig feeding, very high, and if our Minister and our Government must fix a high price to suit Deputy Killilea, how can the manufactured feeding stuffs remain at a cheap price for Deputy Moran? They cannot have it both ways. We heard again from Deputy Killilea about the promises made by the Taoiseach. I was in the Square of Tuam when Deputy Costello, now Taoiseach——

Mr. Killilea

Deputy Hession will never forget it.

Mr. Donnellan

Ex-Deputy Kitt will never forget it. What did the Taoiseach say that night? He said, in effect, as he had said all during that general election: "If you give us an over-all majority, we will go back as an inter-Party Government. I will make no promise whatsoever. Anything we can do for the people as a Government we will do." Was there ever a better proof of it than the Budget which has been presented by the Minister for Finance and by this Government? The more a rat is trapped, the more he will squeal, and, if they are squealing over on that side of the House, it is because they know they are in a corner from which they will never escape.

Deputy Killilea referred to unemployment. Is he aware that we have 6,000 less on the register of unemployed to-day than we had six months ago and over 9,000 less than we had two years ago?

Mr. Killilea

They have all gone to England.

Mr. Donnellan

There are more in employment. Deputy Killilea asked why there was not more progress in industry in Tuam. He knows very well of another industry right beside Tuam where this Government is spending over £2,200,000 on a drainage scheme. To-day, that scheme is giving employment to more than 400 men, reclaiming 75,000 acres of land, as a free grant to the people of this country.

Mr. Killilea

Do you call that an industry?

Mr. Donnellan

The people of this country on the whole, the ordinary decent people of this country, except the odd Fianna Fáil individual who wants to stir up trouble, are satisfied with this Budget. I could go back to my 14,000 or 15,000 constituents in North Galway to-morrow morning and every one of them would say that this is a Budget that is not creating any real hardship. That is the position.

Mr. Killilea

It does not give any relief.

Mr. Donnellan

The day of relief for our people will soon be gone. We will have employment for them all. Perhaps we will be doing what Fianna Fáil were talking about doing in 1932; perhaps we will be sending for those who left the country in the Fianna Fáil time, and bringing them back here, and giving them employment.

In talking about the banks and the bank rate, Deputy Killilea said that we thought the only way to deal with the bank manager was to hit him on the head with a mallet. I do not think that is the way to treat any bank manager.

Mr. Corish

Or anybody else.

Mr. Donnellan

The only difference between us and Fianna Fáil, in connection with the bank rate, is that if Fianna Fáil were in office all the time, we would have had two more rounds of it. When our Minister defended his attitude with regard to the bank rate, he was abused from that side of the House. Now, when he has increased the bank rate, why I do not know, but on his own judgment and the judgment of the Government, he is attacked again from that side of the House. That is just like them. When we subsidised tea for 12 or 18 months, or whatever the period was——

Mr. Killilea

He has to look for advice from those beside him.

Mr. Donnellan

If ever I have to look for any intelligence, it is not over that side of the House I will look for it. When we subsidised tea, we were abused from that side of the House for doing it. Then when the price of tea found its level and the Government said that they would let the consumer pay the price, we were attacked again for doing that. Fianna Fáil wants to blow hot and cold every time.

As a representative of the farming community in this House, I am proud of this Budget. I was never more proud than when I heard the Minister for Agriculture standing up in this House and pointing out here, as was his job, what the farmers should do and what encouragement they would get in doing it. Anything that can be done for the farmers, no matter what the cost is, will be done for them. A million acres of land that was bog, and brush and scrub has been reclaimed. Even on Deputy Killilea's own land, that was done.

Mr. O'Leary

Did he take advantage of it?

Mr. Donnellan

Why would he not, as a good farmer?

An Ceann Comhairle

These interruptions must cease.

Mr. Donnellan

Anything I got, I always paid for it. That is one boast I can make, at least. The speech of the Minister for Agriculture has given our farmers a sense of security. They know where they are now and where they stand. They know they have not got a Government of grabbers under which they did not know where they stood at all. Under that Government, they did not know but that perhaps the land they had to-day would be taken from them to-morrow. Even the machinery that was brought in for doing important work on the farms, was sold away again when we left office. The farmers have security now and they know it. I am proud of this Budget and anything said about it on the Fianna Fáil Benches is only eyewash.

Mr. McGrath

The people behind the Parliamentary Secretary must be very proud of his exhibition here this evening.

Mr. Corish

We will judge you after your speech.

Mr. McGrath

I never heard such blah-blah as we have had from Tuam fair down to the security of the farmers.

Mr. Donnellan

Up to the security of the farmers.

Mr. McGrath

I have here a speech made by the Parliamentary Secretary in column 640, Volume 131, in which he said:—

"With the change of Government and with the help of a man like Deputy McGilligan taxation could be reduced to the extent of £10,000,000."

Mr. Donnellan

That is the £10,000,000 we would have on now, if you were over in this side of the House.

Mr. McGrath

I heard the Taoiseach saying to-day that this was a sound Budget. Is there any Deputy will tell me what changes there are in this Budget from the 1952 Budget? Is every item of food and drink not dearer to-day than it was then? Is it not the same Budget, plus extra taxation, except for the 5d. off the butter? We were told that that was a hair-shirt Budget. It was a Budget which was condemned by the Minister for Finance, by all the Labour people and by the Minister for Social Welfare, but this is the most depressing Budget ever introduced. Now we have the same Budget introduced by the inter-Party Minister for Finance. We have an extra 5d. on the cigarettes, an extra 6d. on the gallon of petrol, a penny on the pint of lemonade, 4d. on tobacco and the price of snuff gone up. The Parliamentary Secretary said they did not interfere with the price of flour. Of course they interfered with the price of flour. They increased the price of flour for confectionery for the child's cake. Now they have brought the lemonade in with that, so that the children cannot have a cake or a bottle of lemonade, without paying more for them. And this is the Budget that was welcomed by the members of the Cork Workers Council, Deputy Casey said yesterday.

Mr. O'Sullivan

A non-political body.

Mr. McGrath

Mar dheadh! It is only a couple of months since that council protested against the increase in the cost of living.

Mr. Corish

They were right.

Mr. McGrath

And they are now trying to cod the people by saying they are glad to pay these new taxes.

Mr. O'Donovan

Have they not got a little more money than they had in 1952?

Mr. McGrath

They have plenty of money now.

Mr. O'Donovan

A lot more than in 1952.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary was given an opportunity to make his statement and he should now afford the same opportunity to Deputy McGrath.

Mr. McGrath

Deputy Casey says that the Cork Workers Council represents 30 trade unions, some of whom are supporters of Fianna Fáil. I do not know how any body of workers could welcome extra taxation when the cost of living was already so high. This new taxation is on top of the 1952 Budget. It represents, as I have said, extra taxation on cigarettes and tobacco, on petrol, on matches, on the child's lemonade. There was quite recently also the restriction on imports. I know a rowing club in Cork which wanted to import a racing gig which they could get at a cost of £100 extra in order to indulge in the sport of rowing. Now, they will have to pay more because of the import restrictions. Deputy Casey said this was a kill-joy Budget. It certainly will kill the joy of smoking, of dancing, and as far as the Cork Boat Club are concerned it will kill the joy of indulging in the sport of rowing. It has killed the child's joy in the bottle of lemonade and in his cake. All this follows on the promises of the glorious things we were to get when the Coalition were in office. I have various quotations here one of which is from the Minister for Social Welfare who talked about the extra million Fianna Fáil were giving to the manufacturers by their tax on smoking.

Mr. Corish

I repeated it in my speech last week.

Mr. James Tully

The Deputy was not here then.

Mr. McGrath

They are getting £1,500,000 now from this Government.

Mr. Corish

How much will they get on cigarettes?

Mr. McGrath

I could not tell the Minister, but I know who will pay the extra tax. It is the workers.

Mr. Corish

It is the consumers.

Mr. McGrath

It is the smokers.

Mr. Corish

Nobody denies that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order!

Mr. James Tully

The Deputy left yesterday and does not know what was said.

Mr. McGrath

What has that got to do with it?

Mr. James Tully

The Deputy would have known what was said.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McGrath, on the Resolution.

Mr. McGrath

I will say it is a very bad thing to see a body of workers welcoming extra taxation. I think I am entitled to say that here. We heard a lot of talk about the old age pensioners, of their smoke and their pinch of snuff, when the 1952 Budget was introduced. I wonder will the Minister for Social Welfare tell us what he is doing now for the old age pensioners?

Mr. Corish

God forgive the whole crowd of you.

Mr. McGrath

What is he doing for the non-contributory widows to help them meet the extra taxation?

Mr. Corish

God forgive you again. God forgive Deputy de Valera and Deputy Dr. Ryan for what they said about them.

Mr. McGrath

What will the Minister for Health have to say for the people drawing T.B. benefits? Will they have to bear all this extra burden themselves? What is the Minister for Defence going to say about the Old I.R.A. men drawing special allowances? They have to bear this extra burden themselves. Nothing is being done for these people. The means test for these Old I.R.A. special allowance recipients is strict enough as it is. Of course their usefulness is gone. Their day is over, and they are not wanted. Why were they not given an increase to meet the increased taxation? It is because their usefulness has ceased.

Mr. O'Leary

Fianna Fáil did badly by them, too.

Mr. McGrath

Fianna Fáil brought in the Act for them and were the only people to do anything for them.

Mr. O'Leary

That is what you think.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Leary is continuously interrupting.

Mr. McGrath

The Government gave nothing to the recipients of I.R.A. special allowances, to the people who have to be incapable of self-support.

Mr. J.J. Collins

These people have a very strict means test. There could not be a stricter means test.

Mr. O'Sullivan

What did Deputy Collins say?

Mr. J.J. Collins

I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary knows that that is true.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I know all about Abbeyfeale.

Mr. J.J. Collins

I will tell you more about North Cork than you would ever wish to hear. I know all about it.

An Ceann Comhairle

This conversation across the House must cease. Deputy McGrath is in possession and must be allowed to speak.

Mr. McGrath

Most of the interruptions are coming from the opposite side.

An Ceann Comhairle

They are coming from every side. It is most disorderly.

Mr. McGrath

It is very hard for the people on this side of the House to listen to the untruthful interruptions from the other side. These I.R.A. men to whom I have been referring have a most strict means test. If one of their children is working, the whole of his earnings are taken into account in the means test. In the case of old age pensioners, it is only the profit from the earnings that is taken into account. Somebody said there were fewer registered unemployed at the moment. It is no wonder there would be. They were told, when they were walking the streets of Dublin, by the Chairman of the Labour Party, Deputy Kyne, that they would get £3 10s. a week under the Coalition Government.

Mr. Corish

When did he say that?

Mr. McGrath

Was it not one of the things published in the papers?

Mr. Corish

Can the Deputy quote it from the papers?

Mr. McGrath

He does not deny saying it. The Labour Party are in control of Social Welfare and there is still no £3 10s. on the dole.

Mr. O'Leary

There is something in the Budget to give them.

Mr. McGrath

There is nothing in the Budget to give them anything.

Mr. Corish

There is.

Mr. McGrath

What increase is there?

Mr. Corish

Twenty-five per cent.

Mr. McGrath

On the dole?

Mr. Corish

For those unemployed in receipt of unemployment benefit.

Mr. McGrath

I refer to people on the dole. The Minister is not talking to a mug.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should address the Chair and not anyone across the floor of the House.

Mr. McGrath

I am saying, Sir, that the Minister for Social Welfare was trying to mislead the House by saying that the people on the dole were getting a 25 per cent. increase and, when questioned, changed it to people on unemployment benefit. The Minister does not need to be instructed on the difference between people on the dole and people on unemployment benefit.

Mr. Corish

Neither does the Lord Mayor.

Mr. McGrath

No, but he is not going to let the Minister mislead the House.

Mr. Corish

I had no intention of doing so.

Mr. McGrath

The Minister said it had been increased. He said there was an increase.

Mr. O'Donovan

Is the Deputy against it?

Mr. O'Leary

Of course, he is.

Mr. Briscoe

Do not mind the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. McGrath

I am against letting them down in the way they have been let down.

Mr. Corish

Who have been let down?

Mr. McGrath

The men drawing the dole.

Mr. Corish

Deputy Dr. Ryan said he would give them nothing when he was on that side of the House. I will quote him.

Mr. McGrath

The Labour Minister is acting up to what Dr. Ryan told him. Has it come to that?

Mr. Corish

He told the House that, if he were Minister for Social Welfare, he would not increase the social welfare benefits.

Mr. McGrath

He was Minister for Social Welfare.

Mr. O'Leary

What did Deputy de Valera say?

Mr. McGrath

Does the Minister deny it?

Mr. O'Donovan

Deputy MacEntee also said so.

Mr. McGrath

The Minister tried to mislead the House when Deputy O'Leary said there was something in the Budget and said there was about 25 per cent. increase for people drawing the dole. When he was challenged, he changed.

Mr. Corish

Challenged, my foot! Did I not make the speech last week? Let the Deputy not think the people down the country are as stupid as he is.

Mr. McGrath

I am not trying to hurt the Minister. I am sure the Minister knows that there are more people drawing unemployment benefit than for some few years past.

Mr. Corish

Would the Deputy like me to quote Deputy Dr. Ryan now?

Mr. Briscoe

Let us have the full quotation.

Mr. Corish

Speaking in the Dáil on 23rd June, 1954, at column 403, Deputy Dr. Ryan said:—

"I only want to ask the Minister whether, in his reply, if he will give an indication when this matter of increased benefits under social welfare will be considered. I do not want to embarrass him by saying that if I were there I would do it. I think it could not be done. I think we were spending as much as we could out of the national income on sickness and other benefits."

Mr. Briscoe

What could not be done?

Mr. Corish

Increased social welfare benefits.

Mr. Derrig

Increased taxation.

Mr. McGrath

We were talking about unemployment assistance, but now the Minister switches over to a general statement on social welfare benefits made by Dr. Ryan.

Mr. Briscoe

The whole lot.

Mr. McGrath

That is right.

Mr. Briscoe

There is a big difference.

Mr. O'Donovan

What did the Leader of the Opposition say about the whole lot?

Mr. Briscoe

Would the Parliamentary Secretary put that on a blackboard, so that we will be able to read it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy McGrath should be allowed to make his speech.

Mr. McGrath

I think the Parliamentary Secretary is only making things worse for his side of the House by these interruptions. If he had any sense, he would keep his mouth shut.

Mr. O'Sullivan

That would apply to the Lord Mayor who interrupted the Taoiseach when he was speaking.

Mr. McGrath

I only interrupted once when he was telling the people to save more. I said there is nothing left for them to save. I do not think anybody can deny that. There is a lot of play about the numbers of the unemployed. I should like to point out to the Minister for Social Welfare that there are a number of factories working on four days a week now in Cork and Cork district.

Mr. Briscoe

And everywhere else.

Mr. McGrath

That is not registered in the local employment exchange. Dunlops and Carrigaline Potteries are working on four days a week, as are furniture factories and a lot more. I can assure the Minister that, if the number of unemployed included those working four days a week, the figures would be more serious than they are at present. Even apart altogether from those figures, there are numbers of people flying out of the country every week as fast as they can go.

I should like to know if there is anything in this Budget that is going to help the Cork Corporation to build their houses. Are we to have our contracts held up for the best months of the year? We have one contract in respect of which a tender has been sanctioned by the Minister for Local Government, but we cannot build our houses because we cannot get money and that notwithstanding the fact that sanction was given for us to borrow money from the bank by the Minister for Local Government.

When we went to get the money, we could not get it, as I think everybody knows by now. We have not yet been told when we will get the money. The contractor is waiting to start the work on 100 or 98 houses. Men come to me and ask me when this job is going to be started and it is not started. The previous Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government, the late Deputy Davin whose passing we all regret, because he was sincere in his efforts to build houses, came down and told us we need not bother about money. He told the City Manager to go to sleep——

Mr. O'Donovan

He never suggested that you spend a couple of hundred too much on a house.

Mr. McGrath

I do not know what the Parliamentary Secretary is talking about.

Mr. O'Donovan

The Lord Mayor would not understand that. Should £200 too much be paid per house?

Mr. McGrath

I do not know what this stupid man is talking about.

Mr. O'Donovan

Too well the Lord Mayor knows what I am talking about.

Mr. McGrath

If he is talking about those houses, the Minister for Local Government delayed them a couple of months. He brought the architects up from Cork Corporation and the architects from the Department of Local Government and there was agreement in regard to a reduction of £20 per house. The Parliamentary Secretary multiplied that by ten.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would be a matter for the Department of Local Government.

Mr. McGrath

Would it be fair to expect that I should allow an untrue remark like that to pass—a remark which was put in a sneering way by a person who does not know what he is talking about?

Mr. O'Donovan

There was some reduction.

Mr. Briscoe

That is a long way from £200.

Mr. McGrath

I am going to say very definitely that the £20 per house was agreed on by the architects of Cork Corporation, the architects in the Department of Local Government, the Minister for Local Government and the five Cork City Deputies. The Deputies who sit behind the Parliamentary Secretary were present when we came to that agreement. That is multiplied now by ten.

Mr. Derrig

The Deputy should bring the Parliamentary Secretary the next time.

Mr. McGrath

I think I should, but most people now are beginning to understand that this Parliamentary Secretary is more stupid than they thought.

Mr. A. Barry

That is direct from a Grey Eminence, anyway.

Mr. McGrath

I am glad that Deputy Barry has come in.

Mr. A. Barry

He is going out again.

Mr. McGrath

He could confirm my statement.

Mr. A. Barry

I could confirm a lot of things about the Deputy.

Mr. McGrath

You can, but you do not want to. You can go out now and ask the Minister for Finance for that few thousand pounds.

Mr. Briscoe

He will not face it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy McGrath, on the Financial Resolution.

Mr. McGrath

I want to know from the Minister for Finance how long more we will be kept waiting for this money, or are we going to get it at all?

Mr. O'Donovan

Get the price right and you will get the money.

Mr. Briscoe

Do not talk nonsense.

Mr. McGrath

This price has been agreed on and if this stupid man on the other side is going to continue, I cannot help stupidity even in a Parliamentary Secretary. The price is settled. It has nothing to do with the price.

Mr. O'Donovan

I am sorry; I have to go out.

Mr. Briscoe

It is about time. Wisdom departs.

Mr. McGrath

We hear all this talk about this Budget which is described as a housewife's Budget, but I am sure there are many Deputies who remember the 1947 Supplementary Budget, when the Fianna Fáil Government increased the price of the pint, the price of cigarettes and cinema tickets and reduced the price of bread, tea, sugar and butter for the housewife, as an emergency measure. What happened? Fianna Fáil lost office by reducing the price of those very essential goods, the things that hit the poor more than anybody else. Now we have the Cork Workers' Council welcoming this Budget. They did not welcome the 1947 Supplementary Budget which helped the housewife more than anybody. I will always stand over, and never regret——

Mr. O'Sullivan

The wages standstill Order.

Mr. McGrath

Do not mind that. There is a very good standstill at the moment, as regards building, at any rate. I will never regret that Fianna Fáil brought in a Budget to reduce the price of bread, tea, sugar and butter for the poor man and his wife and family.

Mr. Briscoe

When Labour opposed subsidies.

Mr. McGrath

I have been listening in Cork and elsewhere to statements that the cost of living must be reduced, even if it is necessary to restore subsidies. We got 5d. off the butter and the poor fellow who smokes will have to pay that 5d. on every packet of cigarettes. Is that not the position?

Mr. Corish

That is the position——

Mr. McGrath

Is the Minister for Social Welfare not ashamed that he has done nothing now for the people who are drawing the dole and of being a member of a Government that has done nothing to increase the allowance to disabled Old I.R.A. men, who are put in the position that they must be incapable of self-support before they can draw the special allowance?

Mr. Corish

I thought the Deputy was looking for a reply.

Mr. McGrath

Is the Minister for Social Welfare not ashamed that they would not give some increase in the T.B. allowance? Do they think that the cost of living has gone down for T.B. patients and has gone up for everybody else?

Mr. Corish

I am afraid the Deputy did not listen to the speech of his leader yesterday.

Mr. McGrath

I am speaking for myself and the Minister ought to speak for himself. Is he ashamed or not that he is not dealing more fairly with the Old I.R.A., with the people drawing T.B. allowances, with those who are forced, through slackness in the building trade and everything else, to draw the dole? He forgets them now, but they will not forget him.

Mr. Corish

We are doing more for them than you would.

Mr. O'Donovan

What about the '40s?

Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach (Mr. O'Sullivan)

At this stage of the discussion on the Financial Resolutions Deputies are in a better position to assess public reaction to the Budget. The Minister in his introduction was quite frank in describing the Budget as a realistic rather than a popular Budget. He is to be congratulated on his presentation of it, on its content and on its reception in the country.

I represent an area which is predominantly agricultural and what I was most impressed with was the Minister's watchfulness to ensure that production costs in the agricultural industry would be protected from the impact of any new taxes. This attitude contrasts with that of a previous Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee, who enshrined a precept in an earlier Budget that taxation rests lightly on the land. That was supported at that time by a Deputy who has now departed from this House, but who has been honoured by acceptance into the National Executive of the Fianna Fáil Party. He was quoted here earlier by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance. It is a good thing that we have got away from that mentality, from anything like an indication from the Minister charged with the finances of the country that he would incorporate in a Budget statement an opinion that taxation rests lightly on the land.

There were many impacts in earlier Budgets on the agricultural community which could have been avoided if the same consideration had been given as is afforded by the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement of this year. That is appreciated by the agricultural community.

Deputy Lemass intervened in the debate to-day, the selected speaker on behalf of the Opposition. I confess that, as a Deputy who came into this House at a time when Deputy Lemass was in these benches and was acting as Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce, I had considerable regard for him in his capacity as a Minister and in the way that he received representations in the course of debates, and so on, but, since his translation to the other side of the House, he has fallen very quickly and very far from the pedestal on which many people had placed him.

Deputy Lemass, in his contribution to the debate, was petulant and angry. His speech followed a statement which was factual and logical, and yet Deputy Lemass, when he jumped to his feet, charged the members of the Government with being almost criminal in their negligence of duty, with having permitted expenditure to get out of hand, with not having done this and not having done that. He charged the Taoiseach with not dominating his Ministers, not riding over them, not directing them as they should be ordered around and he tried to infer that there were men in the Government who are incapable of administering the Departments over which this Dáil and the people of this country have placed them. That was unworthy of Deputy Lemass. He went so far as to say that a requisite for capable administration of a Department was that the Minister in charge should have business experience. I do not know if he ever directed that stricture to his own Party Leader who was Taoiseach and who would not conform to regulations set down by Deputy Lemass, or did he think that his, Deputy Lemass's, experience in that field was sufficient to balance the lack of it in other members of his Cabinet? I think many of his colleagues must have felt rather ashamed of that statement. It was unworthy of him.

He referred also to the fact that Ministers of this Government were paying visits abroad in their capacity as Ministers. One may understand criticism of that nature coming from people far removed from this House, one may understand such criticism from people who would never know the advantages of journeying abroad and the good than can be brought to the country on occasions such as that. Even in Opposition, Deputy Lemass is not averse to travelling abroad and doing much good in the course of his visits in the expression of views which are to the advantage of this country. Realising that, he must have been criticising with his tongue in his cheek when he tried to play to that gallery in relation to visits abroad by Ministers.

The Deputy also, both on that occasion and again to-day when he had an opportunity of making a more complete statement, said there had been an increase in the number of civil servants over the last 12 months amounting to 300. I wonder where he got his figures? That has been said but it has not been supported.

Mr. Derrig

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would tell us what the figures are?

Mr. O'Sullivan

I think I will leave it to somebody who is better fitted to give the figures before this debate concludes.

Mr. Derrig

Surely, if the Parliamentary Secretary is going to contradict Deputy Lemass——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary, without interruption.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Deputy Derrig, Deputy Lemass, and everybody else will then be in a position to know how much they were wrong in their estimate. That is not the only estimate in which mistakes have been made.

Mr. MacCarthy

And not all confined to one side of the House.

Mr. O'Sullivan

It was asserted that there has been a fall in agricultural production. Last evening, the Minister for Agriculture challenged Deputies on the other side, who said there was an overall reduction of 2 per cent. in agricultural production last year, to support that and to indicate where they got their figures. This morning Deputy Lemass said that those figures were to be found in the Budget statement. He said that the Minister for Finance, in introducing the statement, said there was a fall of 2 per cent. in agricultural production. Again, I think it is unworthy of Deputy Lemass or anybody to take something out of its context and stand on it. I will draw the attention of the House to the Budget statement. Deputy Lemass charged the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Finance with being at variance with each other on this point. Actually, the Budget statement confirms, though not in as detailed a form, the statement given here in greater detail last evening by the Minister for Agriculture.

Deputy Lemass stated the Minister for Finance said that agricultural production had fallen by an estimated 2 per cent., then he stopped. I shall quote from the Budget statement as it appears in the Official Report of the 8th May, 1956, column 24. The Minister for Finance said:—

"There was a fall last year in the volume of agricultural output, particularly in that part of output which is represented by exports of meat. The extent of the fall in agricultural output as a whole is estimated provisionally at 2 per cent."

Then Deputy Lemass stopped—but I will continue. Here is what the Minister for Finance said:—

"The increase in cattle stocks holds out hope that the ground lost will be recovered this year. Looking to the future, output and exports of cattle are likely to rise with the improvement in veterinary services and the reduction in the mortality of young cattle."

Deputy Lemass would not include the remainder of that paragraph for the reason that the Minister for Finance said exactly what the Minister for Agriculture said here last evening, except that the Minister for Agriculture was more detailed in pointing out the increased value of the stocks in this country at the moment and went into more detail in relation to the greatly increased value of land in consequence of our capital investment over the past seven or eight years.

Mr. Derrig

That does not alter the fall in agricultural production last year.

Mr. O'Sullivan

It certainly does.

Mr. O'Donovan

There was no fall.

Mr. O'Sullivan

It is very easy to understand the position. The country carries the greatest known stocks in our history, the capital value of which is very much enhanced. Over the past seven or eight years people have invested £8,000,000 in the erection of farm buildings and that has been supplemented by investment by the agricultural community in preparations to house more stocks. One million acres of land have been reclaimed. We must not forget all that has been done by the farmers and that is being done at this moment in the improvement of grassland, the efforts they are making in the clearance of fences and every improvement they are making which will be followed up by greater stocks on the land, more for sale, and consequently more profit to the country as a whole.

Mr. Derrig

The Parliamentary Secretary is telling us that the market prospects, then, are going to be satisfactory?

Mr. O'Sullivan

Deputy Derrig is worried about the market prospects. Deputy Derrig belongs to the Party that gloried in the death of the British market.

Mr. Derrig

We never did.

Mr. O'Sullivan

His Party took pride in the fact that it took 100 years to build the British market and that, with the help of God, it would take only 100 days to destroy it. Shame——

Mr. Derrig

Tell us the prospects of the farmers in the coming years.

Mr. O'Sullivan

It is well to see Deputies on the Fianna Fáil benches getting excited over the prospect of anything like a recession in the cattle trade when, as recently as 1947, no fewer than 148,000 calves were slaughtered in this country. Stocks would not have been available as adult cattle for sale at any fair or in any sales ring were it not for the fact that, with the advent of the first inter-Party Government, the slaughter of infant calves was clamped down on and there was an improvement of veterinary services which has succeeded in reducing the mortality in this country from 80,000 to 8,000.

Mr. O'Leary

They would be as scarce as the rabbits if Fianna Fáil were there.

Mr. O'Sullivan

There is an achievement. If we to-day have a record number of live stock on the land of this country, notwithstanding the increased exports in recent years, then it is certainly an achievement and it is the greatest asset we have to-day in facing the difficulties ahead of us. Above all, it is wonderful to see the conversion of the Opposition to a realisation of the value of that asset. Indeed, looking back on their criminal neglect of that industry, their deliberate attempts to destroy that industry— which is on record time and time again—surely they must speak with their tongues in their cheeks when they go into a state of alarm because there is a slight temporary recession in the price of cattle.

Mr. Derrig

I hope that is correct

Mr. O'Sullivan

Yes. We all hope it is correct. What a pity we did not do more when the opportunity was there, about the eradication of T.B. and all the things that had to wait for so long to be done. Perhaps we would be in a much stronger position in our foreign markets if we had done all of these things at a much earlier stage. Of course, we were playing with other things during those days.

Deputy Lemass also expressed—I am amazed at this—serious regret that this Government do not attach the same importance to the spending of money on main road improvement as the last Government did. In support of his contention, he provided only one argument. He twitted the Labour Party on the effect that this curtailment would have on employment on the roads. Of course Deputy Lemass ignores the fact that the improvement on main roads was carried out at the expense of the county roads during the years in which the Opposition were last in Government.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a question more appropriate to the Estimate for the Department of Local Government.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Deputy Lemass referred to the fact that he thought there would be considerable unemployment as a result of the reduction in the amount made available for main road grants. I do not intend dealing any further with this matter except to point out, as Deputy MacBride did last night, that the labour content in this work is not very large and that we had imported huge machinery to do this work. That machinery would have been much better employed inside the fences working on the land and helping in our efforts to increase production. When that work had been done, this machinery could perhaps at a later stage have been used to take the bends and corners off our roads and to make fast roads faster. There is unfortunately no indication that the work done on these roads has contributed to greater safety, as we can see from the unfortunate traffic accidents occurring on them so often.

This morning Deputy Lemass in his wailing about the attitude of the Government towards expenditure raised the question of hospitalisation. Everyone is aware of the good work that has been done in the course of the past seven or eight years by the improvement of the hospitals in the country.

Mr. Derrig

Over the past 12 years.

Mr. O'Sullivan

It is not so many years since Dr. Noel Browne expressed strong views on the neglect of the Fianna Fáil Government which, in relation to the hospital programme, allowed a site for a hospital to be used year after year for grazing purposes. Now at last something has been done. That hospital has been erected in Cork and we are proud of it and of the fact that we have no list of T.B. patients waiting for treatment in a hospital or other institution. We are glad to be in a position to say that we have surplus accommodation in relation to the treatment of that disease which had been such a source of trouble to our people for so long.

When people cry about the charges on the investment of that money, they forget the fact that much good work is being done in saving the lives of people and putting them in a position to enable them to go back into employment in a much shorter time than they might otherwise have done if, indeed, they would ever have been able to go back into employment again. We have had great progress in this matter of hospitalisation and in the treatment of T.B.

Mr. S. Flanagan

Does the Parliamentary Secretary say that Fianna Fáil had no hospital programme?

Mr. O'Donovan

There was no T.B. allowance in 1947.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I am talking about hospitalisation. Will the Parliamentary Secretary stand behind that statement that Fianna Fáil had no hospital programme?

Mr. O'Sullivan

Perhaps Deputy Flanagan will tell me the amount of the T.B. allowance in 1947.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I want to know whether the Parliamentary Secretary is saying that Fianna Fáil did not pursue a programme of hospitalisation.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I am and I support that by saying that your old friend Dr. Noel Browne criticised the Fianna Fáil Government for that fact.

Mr. S. Flanagan

You are not.

Mr. O'Sullivan

The Deputy and everybody else, including Deputy McGrath, knows that Sarsfield Court in Cork was allowed to be used year after year for grazing purposes when a hospital was badly needed on that site.

Mr. Derrig

Was there a war on at that time?

Mr. O'Sullivan

The fact is we have invested these millions in hospitals, land reclamation and other capital works which were of great benefit to the country and from which great benefit will continue to flow.

The capital investment programme of this Government has steadily gone ahead. An analogy was sought to be drawn by several Deputies between the rates of interest paid during the period of the first inter-Party Government, the rates when Fianna Fáil was back in office and the rates now with the present Minister for Finance in office. Deputy O'Malley and others have referred to that but I think it right to say that the Parties forming this Government when in opposition were more than active in their criticism of the Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee, at that time in paying an interest rate which was exorbitant. In these circumstances let us, in retrospect, look at the capital programme. The inter-Party Government went to the country, floated loans and clearly indicated what they required the money for. They conserved the Marshall Aid moneys as a fund from which to siphon off any amount that might be required to fill the amount which they set out to get.

During their first term of office they had the unfavourable propaganda machine of the Fianna Fáil Party put into operation all over the City of Dublin in reference to that capital programme and to everything which had been done by the Government at that time. Unfortunately that propaganda had some little effect. There were again the statements made by responsible members of the then Opposition which also did an amount of damage, with the result that when they found themselves in office again by accident, without a mandate from the people and charged with the Government of the country, they had put themselves in the state that they could not go to the people in that first year to find the money that was required for capital purposes.

Mr. Derrig

That is not true.

Mr. O'Sullivan

They left office again and passed up a golden opportunity to go to the people for the money that was wanted.

Mr. Moher

On a point of order, is it in order for the Parliamentary Secretary to say that a Party was in Government by accident?

Mr. MacCarthy

They had a bigger mandate than Fine Gael ever had.

Mr. O'Sullivan

That Government had no mandate as was indicated afterwards in Cork City and in other by-elections, with the result that the Taoiseach of that time, realising the position, submitted himself to the people in a general election before his term of office had expired.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This has no connection with the Financial Resolutions.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I was merely dealing with the campaign of criticism and propaganda which was launched against the first inter-Party Government, with the statements made by men who had been Ministers and who were again to become Ministers. The schemes which they criticised at that time were so advantageous to the community that when they came into office they dared not interfere with them. It is those same people who are now attempting to damage the credit of the country by talking of the failure of the national loan.

They found the schemes were so advantageous to the community that they dared not interfere with them. They found they had said so much about the credit of the country that they could not face the people in those circumstances by way of a national loan. They were afraid of the result. Consequently, when they at last plucked up enough courage to face the investing public, they had to do it at an exorbitant rate. That was the first of the dear money for many years. That happened at the time when the money market was completely different from what it is now. It was a time when everybody who went for a loan got it. The circumstances were, indeed, very different from the circumstances obtaining to-day.

Mr. Derrig

In what way were they different?

Mr. O'Sullivan

Inasmuch as money was more cheaply obtained in the money market. There was a distinct gap between the prices paid by Deputy MacEntee at that time and the prices paid by others who were floating loans at that particular period.

Mr. Derrig

How is it that all the British Colonies can float loans?

Mr. O'Sullivan

Have they been successful in recent months?

Mr. Derrig

Yes.

Mr. O'Sullivan

What was the rate?

Mr. Derrig

The rate does not matter. If you can get the money that is the important thing.

Mr. O'Sullivan

If the rate did not matter why did Deputy MacEntee raise it to 5 per cent?

Mr. Derrig

Because he wanted to get the money.

Mr. O'Sullivan

If the rate did not matter when it had gone to 4¼ per cent., why was its impact felt on the local authorities?

Mr. Derrig

The rate is not the question. To get the money at the lowest price we can get it is the most important thing.

Mr. O'Sullivan

So much had been said about the position of the country and its lack of creditworthiness that you had to entice the investing public with an over-attractive rate in order to secure the money.

Mr. Derrig

What rate were you paying on the Marshall Loan?

Mr. O'Sullivan

Deputy MacEntee's was not nearly as attractive as the last one.

Mr. O'Donovan

2½ per cent. was paid on the Marshall Loan.

Mr. O'Sullivan

We were out on our own in 1952 but how much more difficult is it, the people having tasted the high rate, for them to look at anything less? The biggest loss was when Fianna Fáil failed to go for a loan.

Mr. Derrig

We never failed to float any loan.

Mr. O'Sullivan

In 1951 Fianna Fáil failed to go for a loan and circumstances were more advantageous then than at a later period.

Mr. Derrig

Is this a vote of no confidence in the Minister for Finance, that he did not know his business to look for a loan and not get it?

Mr. O'Sullivan

I am dealing with the points made in the course of the debate in regard to the charges that were given in respect of that loan and the rates in regard to the recent one. Every Deputy who spoke to-day tried to infer that it was lack of confidence in the Government that was responsible for the fact that we were unable to get all we wanted.

Mr. Moher

Of course it was.

Mr. O'Sullivan

It was quite clear that an extraordinary event coincided with the floating of the loan at that time and this Government, the Minister and the people are still bearing, and will continue to bear, the repercussions of Deputy MacEntee's 1952 Budget. There was such an assault made in that Budget on the incomes of the people by the manner in which the food subsidies were slashed that every employer, State and otherwise, had to make up to their employees to protect them against the full impact of that. The Government then in office had some extraordinary ideas about the impact of that Budget on the incomes of the people.

Deputy McGrath referred to the old age pensioners. It was felt by the Fianna Fáil Government that ? completely compensated the old person in that year for the impact of the increased cost of the loaf, the pound of butter, the pound of tea, the pound of sugar and everything else they had to pay for, ignoring the impact of any taxes levied. It was solely a result of the impact on them of the cut in the food subsidies.

Mr. Derrig

What taxes were the social service recipients paid?

Mr. O'Sullivan

Surely Deputy Derrig does not contend that ? was sufficient compensation in those days for that impact? Surely Deputy Derrig is aware that the Government failed to compensate the people for the impact of that sudden increase in the cost of living? We levelled criticism at them then and we continued to do so ever since. We were quite fair in saying that in regard to any impact on the cost of living in those months, arising out of circumstances outside the control of this State, the Government was not responsible. But we charged them with having wrongly estimated the situation then and taken action which, far from correcting the evils that existed, had a detrimental effect. Ultimately, more money had to be spent to compensate people for the impact on them of the cut in the food subsidies than the actual amount saved to the Exchequer in cutting them.

When this Government returned to office, it still had to provide for State servants in order to bring their incomes into accord with the cost of living and in this Budget we find that this action has had the greatest effect on the balance of the Budget. When the Minister made his Budget statement, he made it quite clear that if those obligations were to be met the money would have to be found to meet them. In placing the burdens on cigarettes, petrol and so forth there will be no impact on the charges the housewife will have to meet.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance told us of the citizens he met and the satisfaction he found in the country in relation to the action of the Minister and the Government. We all discovered likewise. The Cork Workers Council were not the only independent body who felt that the right course was being adopted. Those in receipt of sickness benefit and insured workers are quite conscious of the increase of 25 per cent. which has become available to them under this Budget. They appreciate that and feel it was something due to them.

Every person who is a beneficiary under it—and the number is quite considerable—appreciates very much what is being done in this Budget. It is well that State pensioned servants would get something in this Budget. It may not be much but, indeed, it is something they know they would not have got from a different Government and a different Minister for Finance. It is something that was due to them.

Mr. O'Donovan

Would Deputy MacEntee have given them anything?

Mr. O'Sullivan

There is an inordinate number of pensioners in the country. We are going through a period when many of the people who were retired on the formation of the new State are still with us. These people were on pensions that were niggardly in relation to the changes in money values. What is being done is appreciated by them. They are individuals in the community who require to be looked after as well as everybody else.

We have a number of retired Garda, retired teachers and people in the community who are educating families and seeking to maintain a standard of life, a standard to which, indeed, they were accustomed when their incomes were greater. It is agreed that the Minister for Finance found it necessary in the circumstances of the day to do what he is doing for them and they, too, are appreciative of that. The fact that he has had to find £2,000,000 per annum to keep the price of butter 5d. lower than it would be if the Opposition Party were in office is something which is appreciated by every member of the community and, as Deputy Moher will agree, it is a good thing that the reaction has been that more Irish butter is being consumed to-day, in consequence of the fact that the reduction in the price has assisted the industry in withstanding the challenge of a cheap substitute.

Some months ago the Minister for Finance, in face of the growing problem which the country had to meet in its balance of payments, came to this House and imposed certain duties. At that time, the Opposition were at sixes-and-sevens in relation to these duties, just as they are at sixes-and-sevens to-day in relation to this Budget. The imposition of the levies was described by some of the Opposition members as being a puny effort, belated, ineffective. The leaders of the Opposition in particular were doubtful of the results which would flow from it, but, despite the prognostications at that time, we have Deputy Carter, of the Fianna Fáil Party, at the other end of the swing of the pendulum stating that much unemployment has arisen as a result of the imposition of these duties. We do not know how Deputy Carter arrived at that conclusion, because the analysis of industrial employment, which is one indication, shows an increase in the number engaged in transportable goods; that would not indicate that Deputy Carter was right in his contention that considerable unemployment has flowed from the impact of these import duties.

Mr. Derrig

What about the distributive trades?

Mr. O'Sullivan

Some provincial papers at the time of the introduction of these duties sent out some of their representatives throughout the country to visit businessmen and consumers—a cross-section of the community—in order to assess the reaction to the imposition of these import duties. We have read, as well as having met these people ourselves and consulted with them, accounts of the results that flowed from these duties. I know that the general impression is that, even though there may be a falling off in the number of new cars purchased, more employment will be available in garages, in the repair of old cars. Consequently, there will be no reduction in employment in that industry.

It is true that the Minister for Finance and the Government did not panic as their predecessors did and did not take any action which would completely disrupt the economy of the country as a whole in this situation; but they took positive action, positive action which they knew would not result in a reduction in the number of employed persons or in a detrimental effect on trade and commerce generally. Even though it is still too early to get a true estimate, we nevertheless see to-day the pleasing result which has ensued. In the recently published figures, there is an indication of an improvement in consequence of their introduction and in relation to the effect they have had on the people as a whole.

Deputy Carter was probably the most emphatic of all the critics of this Budget. He insisted there was extravagance, gross, criminal extravagance, on the part of the Government and the Ministers in the administration of their different Departments. Deputy Carter has been honoured by his own Party to the extent of being appointed Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee and he will there have an excellent forum to pin-point all these items of extravagance.

Mr. A. Barry

Do not make it too hard for him.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Deputy Carter's realisation of the incidence of all these extravagances will no doubt, when the Public Accounts Committee reports back to the House, assume quite large proportions and Deputy Carter's observations on the waste and extravagance in every Department of State will, I am sure, reach catalogue size.

Mr. A. Barry

No fear of that.

Mr. Moher

It will all be wrapped up.

Mr. O'Sullivan

It is a strange thing that, in making these blanket charges at Ministries, in the Estimates we have so far discussed there has been no evidence of discovery by any Deputy here of any gross waste or extravagance. It is surprising, considering the time which has been taken up in the discussion of these Estimates, that that has not been brought to light. It is also true, despite the information Deputy Lemass may have as to the inability of some Ministers here, that quite worthy tributes have been paid to them, even by members of the Opposition, when these Estimates were under discussion. In fact, on one occasion, a tribute was paid by a former Minister to his successor, because of the achievements he had found it possible to attain since his accession to the particular Ministry.

We find, therefore, that the criticisms offered of the Budget are completely at variance with the criticisms offered on individual Estimates. In the Estimates still to be discussed, we will look forward to hearing from Deputies who are critical of the Administration at the moment details of this extravagance and waste and the ways in which they would curtail it. It would be helpful if they indicated to the particular Minister or Parliamentary Secretary the schemes which they think should be discontinued. That will help the Government and the Minister considerably in their present aim of reducing the cost of administration.

The Minister has found it necessary to find this additional £1,000,000 to meet the impact of increased payments to State servants. There is, too, the £1,250,000 which must be found for health this year. Surely Deputies on both sides will not contend that that expenditure could be described as extravagant or wasteful. The Minister has reimposed the tax removed by the Fianna Fáil Government on dance halls. That tax was removed at a time when we were told the country was facing very extreme difficulties and it was removed at a time when no other concession was made by way of taxation reliefs. The action of the Minister in reimposing this tax has been acclaimed by the country at large. Even Dr. Browne, who was a member of this House at the time, voiced his disapproval of the removal of the tax and his failure to understand why it should be removed. When the Attorney-General, Deputy McGilligan, was Minister for Finance, he introduced certain changes in the application of this tax on dances and gave a certain relief from it to certain small communities. That was a good thing because it assisted such places in securing patrons, patrons they would not have got had they to bear the same incidence of taxation as the larger centres of population.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 23rd May, 1956.