Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 May 1956

Vol. 157 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 38—Local Government (Resumed).

Debate resumed on motion:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy Briscoe.)

Mr. Corry

I want now to deal with the position in relation to the Local Authorities (Works) Act. Like other Deputies, I regret that there is not more money available for the purposes of this Act. Since that Act was introduced it has proved to be one of the best methods by which improvements can be carried out by local authorities and the more money I would see expended under that Act the better I would like it. I commended the Act when it was introduced by the late Minister for Local Government, Deputy Tim Murphy. That Act has resulted in an immense amount of good work being done. I would make one appeal: I would ask that decisions would be given earlier in the year on applications from local authorities under that particular Act. We all know that the months of October, November and December are not the months during which to put men into a river for the purpose of draining or cleaning that river. A far better return is got for the money expended if the work is carried out in the months of June, July and August. Sometimes the money comes along as late as February and there is then only one month in which to do the work and the possibility is that the work is not done at all.

I wish to deal now with the question of co-operation between the Office of Public Works, the Department of Local Government and local authorities. How is it possible that there are two Departments of State one stating that a road must be 16 feet wide and the other stating that it must be 11 feet wide? Why cannot the two officials concerned get together and come to an agreement as to what the width of a particular road should be? The present situation is a joke. That is what is happening and that is one of the things which is holding up work. The other is that, where grants are given under the rural improvement scheme, the local authority is prohibited from contributing to that in order to get the work completed. On several occasions we have sent a request to the Department of Local Government and to the Office of Public Works to send down an official to meet the roads committee of the county council and the county council engineer to thrash out that matter and to see if we could come to some arrangement on it. There would be a great saving in public money if such an arrangement could be made.

It would also result in the speeding up of work on cul-de-sac roads, a matter which is worrying us more than anything at the moment. At present, with the many mechanical developments in agriculture, it is absolutely essential that this be done. I did not think when I tabled and got passed a motion by the county council that it would be any great trouble for the Minister for Local Government to send down some official and to arrange with the Office of Public Works to send an official, and that those two officials would spend a couple of hours thrashing out this matter and come to some conclusion between the local authority and the Department concerned. I would ask the Minister to let the county council have a reply to that at his earliest convenience and to let us know on what date we can expect those officials to come down.

I do not think there is any Deputy with any sense of responsibility who does not feel perturbed at the present financial position. We had the statements made by Deputy Larkin, Deputy Briscoe and Deputy McGrath in connection with this failure to find money. It is an extraordinary thing that a Department of State should suggest that the local authority should go out to the insurance companies and borrow from them. To my mind it is a joke. I would like to hear from the Minister some definite statement on the total amount of money borrowed by local authorities in this country to date and what is the total burden on the ratepayers in respect of the repayment of that. If that is added to the £13,000,000 a year that we now have to find to service the public debt generally, how much will the people have to pay to be entitled to live here? When we remember that the money to service that public debt has gone up from £4,000,000 to £30,000,000 since 1948 it is no wonder that the people of this country feel perturbed at the situation generally.

If the people opposite find now that those "better times" they guaranteed to the people in the general election have now turned out to be a time when there is no money for anything, the only decent thing to do is to clear out. I think the people of Leix-Offaly have already told them to clear out, and that was the last decision we had. Even the people of Dublin, where we have all the civil servants, were not prepared to give them the support they used to give them. Are they now going to enlist the aid of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture, have his monetary reform policy brought into force and print the couple of million pounds that Deputy Larkin wants for Dublin Corporation, the couple of million pounds that Deputy McGrath is looking for in Cork and the couple of million pounds we could all do with? The Parliamentary Secretary, who is the genius at monetary reform, could print that money and relieve the Minister for Local Government of a very severe headache in regard to all those loans.

My point of view is that, following the bad example that has been set in the Department of Local Government in regard to the trebling of officials, every local authority in this country has followed suit. Where at one time you went into an office and found one man and a typist, you go in to-day and find that man has become what is known as a staff officer and that there are 15 more under him. Nobody knows where it is going to stop. My personal view is that, if cattle prices do not improve during the next few months and if we find ourselves with a cut in price of agricultural produce generally, three-quarters of the rates to be collected from the agricultural community next year will be collected by the bailiffs. That will be the "better times for everybody."

Mr. O'Hara

I want to be brief in my contribution to this debate. I feel it my duty to intervene mainly because of something that received a lot of publicity in Mayo and, for that matter, in the daily papers, and which has been read by many citizens of this State. It is the auditor's report in regard to the running of Mayo County Council. Some time ago the Local Government Department auditor audited the accounts of Mayo County Council and in his report commented adversely on the manner in which some works had been carried out. In the matter of the bridges for Achill, for instance, he seemed to allege that they had been paid for twice, and he commented on other matters of lesser importance.

In this whole matter it will be appreciated that public money is being spent. That being so, the people are entitled to know how it is being spent. When a local government auditor comes along and suggests that something was paid for twice and when the daily newspapers and the local newspapers publish these things, the people immediately become alarmed; they are inclined to lose confidence in their public men and in their officials as well. Generally speaking, the people of Mayo have the greatest confidence in their officials.

I want to state emphatically that due to the auditor's report on that occasion—and it is not my job to stand judge and jury on it now—certain comments of his were widely read and the position has not so far been cleared up. Subsequent to the auditor's report, the Mayo County Council unanimously asked for a judicial inquiry and sent up a resolution to the Minister for Local Government to that effect. The officials of the Mayo County Council naturally would have read the auditor's report and replied to the points made by the auditor. There were many contradictions and the people are left in doubt as to what the position really is.

It is my opinion that when an auditor from the Department makes such comments the truth should be brought out in public. There is no way of dealing with this other than to have a judicial inquiry. It may be argued that this would be costly, but no matter how costly it is, I submit that that judicial inquiry should be held so that the people will know who is in the right and who is in the wrong. Furthermore, if somebody is in the wrong, let him be dealt with in the right way. It is no use sending up letters to the Secretary of the Mayo County Council and making excuses for not holding this inquiry. Let the people who pay the piper know what tune is being played; let them know what the position is. I am asking the Minister to see to it at the earliest possible date that this judicial inquiry will be held regardless of the cost.

I want to refer briefly to the road works schemes. I am proud to note that increased grants are available for county roads, the type of roads used particularly by the agricultural community, the people who really count in this country and by that I mean the people who provide the essential commodities for the nation as a whole and who keep the machinery of State going. I am glad, therefore, that some additional money is being made available in the present Estimate for this purpose.

I am of the opinion, however, that quite a lot of this money is not being spent as prudently as it might be spent. In various Parts of the country we see men working on the roads with out-of-date implements and they have not the means to carry out the job efficiently. I would urge upon the Minister the importance of mechanising road works schemes. Some people might suggest that in saying that I am all out to do away with human labour. That is not my argument at all. I would not like to be taken as suggesting that any working man should be deprived of his livelihood but I would like to see a greater mileage of road done for the amount of money we are spending. If we want to achieve that desirable end, we must mechanise so that we will get a greater mileage of road done for the same amount of money. Goods cannot be transported efficiently over long distances without good roads and the only way to construct them in the shortest possible time is by mechanisation.

There is another point also to be considered. I have advocated on previous occasions in this House a bonus system for road workers, and I advocate it again to-day. If you pay a worker £5 a week whether he works or idles, there is naturally a tendency to take it easy. I would like to see, therefore, in addition to a flat rate of wages a bonus being given to the worker on his output. That is the practice in England and in other parts of the country. The Department can always make excuses that this and that cannot be done, but I submit that this can be done and will bring beneficial results if put into practice. I would be all for the working man getting his £5 a week basic wages in order to buy the necessaries of life for himself, his wife and his children. In addition to that, at the end of a fortnight or a month there could be a certain sum of money paid out by way of bonus in order to encourage greater output.

I do not want to be taken as suggesting that our people are lazy, that they are not as good workers as those in any other part of the world, but we all appreciate that if a commercial traveller was told: "You will get £20 a week going down from Dublin to the West, whether you sell goods or not," that man would not be very worried whether or not he sold goods, because he would have £20 to get anyway. If he were told that he would get 1 per cent., 2 per cent., or 5 per cent. commission, he would be all out to build up his sales. Similarly, if a worker knew he had something else to get by working harder, then he would work harder. We would thus get better results and the man himself would be happier.

As far as housing schemes and housing needs are concerned, successive Governments have gone a long way in providing good houses for our workers. I am glad to note that with the passage of time we are bringing to the homes of the ordinary workers more modern amenities, such as hot and cold water and other things which are very desirable and very necessary for our people. It is far better that we should house our people in healthy homes with all modern facilities in them than that we should be keeping them in sanatoria, hospitals and other places like that.

I think we have made remarkable progress in this country, taking it by and large, in the matter of housing. If we are reasonable and examine the matter fairly we must admit that quite good progress has been made by successive Governments. It is true that in many areas quite a lot remains to be done even yet, but with goodwill on all sides we can within a few short years reach our goal. I do not think the Fianna Fáil Deputies are being fair when they start this scaremongering about loans and the difficulties of getting money

Mr. Briscoe

If we have not got money, how can we build houses?

Mr. O'Hara

We will get along with the job all right. I am not taking any credit from Fianna Fáil in this matter. In Ballina, during their period of office Fianna Fáil did quite a lot, and in fact I do not think they could have achieved more in the matter of housing. I believe at the present time that the Government has its own difficulties which, in many ways, are difficulties of the kind which Fianna Fáil itself experienced as a Government and it is well to be honest about it. I am satisfied that the present Minister will carry on and finish his task. Whatever difficulties we have, I believe they will be overcome.

I think it would be in order to make a few brief remarks on the matter of local authorities' works schemes as they affect county councils. I have always thought that in some of these schemes undertaken by county councils, regarding drains particularly, there is not sufficient co-operation between the Department of Agriculture on the one hand and the county council on the other. One often finds work being undertaken by the Department of Agriculture under a land project scheme, drainage work for instance, and when the workers come to a point where they meet a culvert or a gully under the road which they find must be lowered and they approach the county council, they are told: "That is not our responsibility". They are further told: "You people have no say in these things". The fact remains that many useful schemes of drainage are held up as a result of lack of co-operation on the part of county council engineers, regarding such works as lowering of gullies and so on. I would ask the Minister to try to bring about happier relations and better co-operation between the county councils and the Department of Agriculture with regard to such projects because the present situation is hampering progress in a very important sphere where it is a question of making available more land for production. Many land project contractors have told me that difficulty is always there when they approach the manager.

In concluding, I would ask the Minister to deal with these matters to which I have referred and particularly to deal with the matter of the judicial inquiry to which I referred at the outset and for which the people of my county in particular and the people of the country generally are clamouring.

Mr. McGrath

I want to talk specially about the subject of housing in Cork which is causing a great amount of anxiety among the building workers and the working people who are looking for houses for many years and who are living in the hope of getting houses. We can see that the present Minister is inclined only to sneer or smile at any question we put to him. He was asked a question to-day about Parnell bridge and he seemed to think it was a great joke. The glee club which he has behind him seems to join in with whatever joke he makes, but I can assure the Minister that any of his predecessors that I knew did not look on housing or any other serious problem as a joke. I can refer to Local Government Ministers in the previous inter-Party Government, the late Deputy T.J. Murphy and the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs when he was Minister for Local Government. I can also refer to the Fianna Fáil Minister for Local Government, now Deputy Smith, and his anxiety to house the people.

We were told by those people and by the late Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Davin, who, I believe, was really sincere in his desire to get the people housed, that money need not hamper us. Deputy Smith said no matter how fast we could build houses in Cork he would guarantee while he would be Minister that the money would be forthcoming. During their periods of office, their anxiety was that we should build more and more houses and they sent down officers from the Department and held investigations as to why we were not making more progress in Cork. That was their only anxiety, that the people should be properly housed and we were not to worry about money because the money would be found.

The late Deputy Davin went round on an inspection of houses with me and I suggested to him that he should see some of the old houses. He then said he never thought that human beings were living in such scandalous conditions. He repeated that statement at a trade union congress the following week and there was nothing exaggerated in that statement. People are living in Cork with their families, where they have to wash clothes, dry clothes, eat and sleep in the same room. Does the Minister for Local Government think that is a joke, or does any Deputy in this House think it is a joke that people in the 20th century should be expected to live under those conditions?

When I asked to-day when money would be available to build 115 houses in Wolfe Tone Street, the Minister said the capital finances of the corporation were being investigated or used words to that effect. He said he had already sanctioned permission for the corporation to apply for a loan or to increase their overdraft for the purpose of building houses and he said: "Wisha, what more can I do for you?" That is not the way his predecessor spoke. His predecessor guaranteed us the money and told us no matter how fast we would build, the money would be available. We are now in the position that we have a tender accepted for months, sanctioned by the Minister, and we are unable to go ahead. The Minister said he did not see why we could not go ahead. When the deputation met the Minister for Finance about this matter Deputy Jack Lynch asked: "Could we go ahead with this contract in Wolfe Tone Street for 115 houses?" The Minister for Finance replied: "If you do, you will do it on your own responsibility."

Yesterday morning I asked the city manager how he was carrying on and he said that the bank had agreed to let us carry on until we had an overdraft of £750,000. I asked him how much was left and he said we would be able to carry on for nearly a month. That means that we can carry on without accepting and carrying out the tenders that are at present before us. Men are walking about idle, in Cork City, and they cannot be put to work because the Minister for Finance is having the capital position examined, notwithstanding the fact that we had permission from the Minister for Local Government to carry an overdraft.

I think it would be much more honest for the Minister to say that he has not got the money and cannot do the work. Deputy Larkin put that point up to him to-day when he said that it would be far more honest if the Government said that they had not the money and that they would have to stop housing. Recently, I came across a pamphlet issued by the inter-Party Government when they were in power previously under the heading "Ireland is Building". Deputy Keyes, the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, was then Minister for Local Government and the pamphlet said that the Government was setting out on a building programme which would cost £120,000,000, which amount of money was to be expended in the next ten years. It said that £100,000,000 was to be spent on building houses and up to £20,000,000 on the building of hospitals. It went on to say that this great undertaking would ensure the continued employment of members of all branches of building and allied trades; that workmen who came home would find wages at least equal to wages across the water; they would get good Irish food and live and work amongst their own people. The pamphlet concluded: "This is the rebuilding of Ireland for our children's children" and it was signed Michael J. Keyes, Minister for Local Government and Noel M. Browne, Minister for Health.

There was also a photograph of the late Deputy T.J. Murphy and a quotation from the present Taoiseach in which he said: "Never, I think, did the last words of any public man more fittingly express the dearest object of his life's work in the service of his people". It said that the first stage of that programme was to remove a considerable number of the people from the hovels and slums in which they lived and to give them a chance of bringing up their children under reasonable conditions.

I have no doubt that those men, at the time, were perfectly sincere and I have no doubt that if those two men were alive to-day they would not vote for this Estimate. That is my firm belief, that those men would not vote to stop housing for our people. Anybody voting for this Estimate is voting to stop the building of houses for our people. Deputy Casey and Deputy Barrett know that quite well. They know that what I say is true when I talk about people washing, drying, eating and sleeping in the one room.

Mr. Barrett

We do not know that we are voting against housing if we vote for this Estimate.

Mr. McGrath

The Deputy knows it, but will not admit it. Deputy Barrett knows that when we met the Minister for Finance he said he would have the position examined immediately they got the figures. Deputy Barrett, Deputy Casey and myself all believed that we would have a decision within a couple of weeks. The figures are still being examined. The Cork Deputies know how building was held up in December and January due to the rain and frost. We have never had such a glorious spell of fine weather as we are having at present and there is no building being done by contractors. Anybody that is going to support that attitude is not in a hurry to get houses built for our people. Surely, they are voting against their consciences? I believe that Deputy Barry and Deputy Casey and the rest of them are as anxious to house the people as I am and I cannot see why they will not tell this Minister, who seems to make a joke or abuse of everything that comes before him, that he must carry on with the building programme.

Mr. Barrett

We pressed him as far as we possibly could.

Mr. McGrath

In his reply to me to-day, the Minister said that he had no definite answer to give to Cork Corporation as to when they would be able to go ahead with this particular tender. We all know that this site is developed and ready; that the tender has been accepted, and that men are walking about idle, while nothing is being done but to postpone building from time to time. The first reason given was because the price was too high and the Parliamentary Secretary said that we were paying £200 a house more than we should pay. It was proved to him, when we reduced the tender by £20 a house, how wrong that statement was. Are we now going to go back and tell the people that we cannot get this money?

We have heard Labour Deputies saying, a few years back, that housing should be treated as a national emergency. I believe that the only places where a very serious problem exists at the present time are Dublin and Cork. From what I hear, the rural areas are not in anything like as bad a position. We are in a scandalous position. We were told by Dr. O'Hara, before he left this country, that if the people had no proper homes to live in, that they could not pray, and that they could not be happy and contented. We are still in need of about 3,000 houses. We are not even advancing at the rate at which we are building because, as Cork Deputies know, we have a number of tenements in Cork which are in a deplorable condition and which have to be condemned and abolished. For each of these we must have seven or eight or ten new houses.

If we build 400 houses a year, we will be only reducing the number required by about half that figure. Young married people are living apart. Many of them are living in the homes of their parents and many of them are living with their in-laws, giving rise to constant fighting and bickering. All the Cork Deputies are aware of that. We had a house burned down a couple of weeks ago. Up to a short time ago there were 40 persons living in that house which had only one toilet. The number had been reduced to 25 at the time of the fire but people should not be asked to continue to live in places like that when we have had a Government of our own for over 30 years. I think it is about time that the people had proper houses to live in.

If the Labour Party are going to support that policy then in my opinion they are betraying the men who went before them. It would be worth while for members of the Labour Party to dig up this document which was issued by the Department of Social Welfare in the year 1948 telling workers in England that they could register for work in Ireland by sending their names and addresses to the Department of Social Welfare which would put them in touch with builders seeking tradesmen and labourers for building projects at home.

Mr. Rooney

When did these men leave?

Mr. McGrath

Leave what?

Mr. Rooney

When did they leave the country?

Mr. Briscoe

They are leaving now.

Mr. McGrath

Deputy Rooney can deal with the dual purpose hen on which he was an expert a few years ago.

Mr. Rooney

The Deputy cannot get away from it that way.

Mr. McGrath

There was then this postcard which in 1948 was sent to people telling them that there was work for them at home and all they had to do was to put their name and address on it and send it to the Department of Social Welfare. I suggest that the Minister for Local Government should now get out similar documents and send them to our people in England telling them that all building work in Ireland has stopped and that if they return there is nothing for them but the Labour Exchange.

Mr. Rooney

They left before 1948.

Mr. McGrath

It was in 1948 that they were asked to come back.

Mr. Rooney

You sent them away.

Mr. McGrath

We were not responsible for the war. I hope the Deputy is not going to blame us for starting the war between England, Russia and Germany.

Mr. Rooney

The Deputy's Government exported cement after the war.

Mr. McGrath

There were men who went out of this country at various stages and nobody denies it.

Mr. Briscoe

They have been going out every week since last November.

Mr. McGrath

And they went out after 1922—a lot of them.

Captain Giles

They have been going since Brian Boru.

Mr. McGrath

I do not want to say anything about Deputy Giles or Brian Boru.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

These matters do not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. McGrath

All I know is that the Minister for Agriculture brought in a lot of Brian Boru's butter from the Danes. I would appeal to the Labour members to vote against this Estimate unless they get some guarantee from the Minister that Dublin and Cork Corporations will get, within a reasonable time, the money needed for housing.

Mr. J. Larkin

Deputy Lynch says you are going to get it.

Mr. McGrath

I have only seen what the Minister for Local Government has stated: that the position is being investigated and I am sure Deputy Larkin does not wish to laugh at the men who will be on the dole in Cork and at the people waiting for houses.

Mr. J. Larkin

I have only told the Deputy what Deputy Lynch said.

Mr. McGrath

I am not responsible for Deputy Lynch but only for myself. Cork Corporation floated its loan successfully but it was sufficient only to pay the overdraft due. Whether building will be stopped will depend on whether we get some definite information soon and I am sure Deputies Casey and Barry are as concerned as I am about this matter. It is the Government's responsibility to house the people. That was the first problem to be tackled and this is the first time in my memory when housing has been stopped or slowed down since the drive to re-house the people began.

Before the refusal of money at all, everybody knows that there were delays in the Department of Local Government. Everybody knows that when tenders were sent up they were sent back to the local authorities for the least thing so that their programmes were delayed.

The Minister also refused the Cork Corporation permission to build houses for tenant purchasers. We have been told from time to time by members of different Governments that people should be encouraged to own their houses. Cork Corporation long ago built numerous houses. The people were allowed to buy their own houses in those schemes and I am sure that the Cork Deputies would admit that they are the best kept houses in the city because the people have an interest in them. We carried out two schemes of 14 houses and we then suggested a big scheme in Mayfield district but the Minister would not sanction it on the ground that he would give priority to more needy people at the time. We put up another scheme of 14 houses and the Minister would not consider that either. In the face of that, we are told that people should try and own their houses; if we continue on any other basis Dublin and Cork Corporations will soon be the biggest landlords in the country. I do not think that is right. I think the people should be given the opportunity of buying their own houses by paying small amounts every week or otherwise. In that way they will take a greater interest in their houses but apparently doctors differ and patients die.

Mr. Rooney

Deputy Kennedy would not agree with that and he said so yesterday.

Mr. Briscoe

The Deputy is not working on Deputy Kennedy's policy?

Mr. McGrath

When the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Donovan, is not here Deputy Rooney seems to take over as a chief interrupter.

Mr. Rooney

The Deputy is just filibustering.

Mr. McGrath

We also have the case of other houses under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. We have cases of people who had paid deposits or had made arrangements with the builders or had actually started the building and they were suddenly told that there would be an increase in the rates of interest. I can remember the protest made by Fine Gael, Labour and the other Parties now comprising the Government when the rates of interest were increased in 1952. I can remember the protest meeting held in O'Connell Street about this and all the Deputies protesting against the increase which they said caused hardship to the people.

Deputy Smith stated yesterday that when he was Minister for Local Government he exempted all those who had committed themselves in any way so far as house building was concerned. If they had paid a deposit or entered into any commitment they were exempted. The present Minister refuses to do that. Deputy Briscoe and I put down some questions here. The questions were identical to those asked by Deputy Sweetman of Deputy Smith when Deputy Smith was Minister for Local Government and Deputy Sweetman was on this side of the House. We merely changed the dates.

Mr. Spring

And the names too.

Mr. McGrath

We merely changed the dates, but we did not get the same reply. There has been no protest about the increase in rates. There have been no protests by the Labour Party, no protests by the Fine Gael Party and, indeed, very little protest by Fianna Fáil T.D. s against the increase in rates. Deputy Larkin quoted a case to-day of two officials of his trade union who were about to get married and had started building their own houses. I know people who had the mortgages signed. I think it was the Minister who said that if the mortgages were signed the applicants should go and see their solicitor. The county solicitor in Cork said that the county council are bound to charge ½ per cent. more for the money. Whether the mortgage is signed or not, the county council cannot give the money at anything less than ½ per cent. more than they paid for the money, unless, of course, they get the sanction of a generous Minister for Local Government, like the Fianna Fáil Minister for Local Government when he was in office.

It seems that people now have lost the habit of protesting since the present Government took office. When the rates went up on a former occasion, we had hordes of ratepayers besieging the courthouse in Cork and creating a demonstration as a protest against the increase in rates. The rates have gone very much higher now and there is no protest. There are no hordes besieging the courthouse now. One can only conclude that the people who made these protests in the past were organised by those who comprise the present Government. Otherwise, the people must have completely given up the ghost and believe it is no longer worth while to protest any more. One can only conclude that it is either the one or the other. I suppose the same is true of the unemployed marches; Deputy Kyne said they would give them £3 10s. a week. I think it is an appalling tragedy to see this lovely weather and no work being done.

I had a question down here to-day about Parnell Bridge. An inquiry was held about two years ago and now, of course, the technicians have to inquire into it and find out for themselves whether the bridge should be an open bridge or a closed bridge. The technicians have nothing whatsoever to do with whether it should be a swivel bridge or a permanent structure. That is a matter for the people who gave evidence at the inquiry, the harbour board, the Cork Corporation, and the merchants above the bridge. Their evidence should be sifted by now at any rate. But the reply I got to that question was: "Have the film stars left Cork?" The films stars leaving Cork have nothing whatever to do with Parnell Bridge.

That is another one of the Minister's jokes. He used to refer to Deputy Corry "sitting on the bridge below the town". Parnell Bridge has been in existence for a good many years. There is another bridge in Cork with barrels along it to prevent heavy lorries passing over it. We are concerned now with two bridges in Cork. I admit the North Gate Bridge is not being delayed directly by the Minister, but it is being delayed because of the fact that the Minister would not get a city engineer appointed. Naturally a man who is on the point of retiring cannot be expected to be as interested in such a project as a man would be who still had several years of service ahead. There is some dispute between the engineers' trade union and the Minister which prevents the Minister from appointing this engineer although Cork Corporation have agreed to pay the salary demanded by the engineers. I suppose that is only a joke too— another of the Minister's jokes. That appointment is held up. We have no city engineer with the exception of a man who is on the point of retirement. If the Minister thinks the people will continue being laughed at——

Mr. O'Donnell

I can assure the Deputy I had no intention of laughing at either the mayor of Cork or the people of Cork. I have nothing but the greatest respect for them.

Mr. McGrath

I can assure the Minister it is not the first time. His previous joke was not a very nice one for a man in his position.

Mr. O'Donnell

I do not remember what it was.

Mr. Briscoe

Question Time.

Mr. McGrath

On the Adjournment here one night.

Mr. O'Donnell

Surely the mayor did not take that seriously?

Mr. McGrath

The Minister does not take anything seriously anyway as far as we are concerned. Everything is a case of passing the buck.

Mr. O'Donnell

When I go down to Cork I must say the Lord Mayor is very complimentary to me and the good work I am doing.

Mr. Briscoe

The Lord Mayor is always a courteous gentleman.

Mr. O'Donnell

A person generally means what he says.

Mr. McGrath

The Minister who comes to Cork is not the same Minister who is sitting here to-day. When the Minister came to Cork on the tour of all the local authorities, he was a Minister who appeared to be serious and intent upon carrying out his duties in a serious manner. But, since that time, the Minister has acted quite differently. When he went to Bandon he made it quite clear that he wanted to slow up housing.

Mr. O'Donnell

He said no such thing and the Lord Mayor is deliberately misinterpreting me.

Mr. McGrath

I read it in the paper.

Mr. O'Donnell

Never mind what the Deputy read in the paper. One cannot always believe what one reads in the papers.

Mr. McGrath

And the Minister is deliberately stopping building now.

Mr. O'Donnell

I am not, and the Deputy knows it. I understand the Deputy described what the late Parliamentary Secretary found in Cork when he went down there after 15 years of Fianna Fáil Government. He found hundreds of people living in hovels. You did nothing whatsoever to try to remedy that until we came into office. Mark you, I pay tribute to the work which you have done since. I think you are doing very good work and I have nothing but admiration for it.

Mr. McGrath

You should not have stopped it. I apologise to the Chair for not addressing the Chair. The Minister says nothing was done until his Government came into office. I do not think anybody in this House or outside it believes that. Most of the houses in the country were built under the 1932 Housing of the Working Classes Act. A considerable number of houses were built by Fianna Fáil prior to the war and since the war ended. Before the war ceased Deputy MacEntee, then Minister for Local Government, circularised every local authority and asked them to get out schemes. We know that during the last period of office of the inter-Party Government delays were not altogether the fault of the Department. We know ourselves that local officials were not inclined to go ahead with a big scheme of building, but now that they have got them to go ahead, now that we have set up a direct labour scheme which is doing good work, now that we have got the plant, the sheds and the stores for the direct labour scheme, it looks as if they will have to pack up before long——

Mr. O'Donnell

You want to build white-collar houses when I want you to clear the slums of Cork. I will see that you will not be short of money for the clearing of those slums.

Mr. McGrath

We already have cleared them and we have no money to rebuild.

Mr. O'Donnell

The Deputy is pressing me to sanction the building of white-collar houses.

Mr. McGrath

The Minister is trying to drag in a red herring. We have accepted tenders for 115 houses at Wolfe Tone Street——

Mr. O'Donnell

Then get on with the job.

Mr. McGrath

——but the Minister for Finance tells us that if we start to do it, we will do it on our own responsibility.

Mr. O'Donnell

That was some time ago. I have given you authority to get on with the job.

Mr. McGrath

We do not want authority, we want money; that is the authority we want.

Mr. O'Donnell

You want the money before you begin to build?

Mr. McGrath

We want the money because we have been refused by the bank.

Mr. O'Donnell

I can assure you if you get on with the job now the houses will be paid for. Does the Deputy want any further assurance than that?

Mr. McGrath

I do. I still want the money.

Mr. O'Donnell

The Deputy wants to get paid for his cow before he sells it.

Mr. McGrath

I want to pay. Will the Minister go and settle up with the bank? Will the Minister tell the bank to honour our cheques? That is the only answer we want. There is no use in saying "get on with the job" and then have the Minister for Finance say: "If you do it, you do it on your own responsibility".

Mr. O'Donnell

When did he say it?

Mr. McGrath

When I went on a deputation.

Mr. O'Donnell

When?

Mr. McGrath

When the Minister was touring France.

Mr. O'Donnell

I think the Minister merely asked for figures.

Mr. McGrath

Deputy Jack Lynch asked him if we could go ahead with the Wolfe Tone Street scheme. He said:—

"If you do, you will do it on your own responsibility until I have the figures checked."

Mr. O'Donnell

Was not that a fair answer?

Mr. McGrath

Does the Minister know the answer he gave me to-day or has he forgotten about it already?

Mr. O'Donnell

I am giving you authority to get on with the job, and if you do not get on with it, you are obstructing the scheme and I publicly accuse you of so doing.

Mr. McGrath

Will the Minister pay the money?

Mr. O'Donnell

The Deputy is no longer a child.

Mr. McGrath

The Minister may be sure of that. Will I read out the Minister's reply.

Mr. O'Donnell

I remember.

Mr. McGrath

The Minister's reply was:—

"As the Deputy and the Cork Corporation are aware the question of the manner in which the next instalment of the corporation's capital requirements is to be raised is being considered at the moment. I see no reason why the local authority should have deferred the placing of the housing contract referred to by the Deputy if they were satisfied on the points raised by me when sanctioning the tender. In this connection I would remind the Deputy that, when sanctioning the tender, I pointed out to the corporation that the level of the tender was such as would create difficulties for the corporation in regard to the fixing of rents and the determination of the loss to be borne by the corporation."

What I asked the Minister was this:—

"Whether in view of the fact that a tender has been sanctioned by him for the building of some 115 residences at Wolfe Tone Street, Cork, and that the best months of the year for building are passing without any start being made, he will state when money will be available for this purpose?"

Mr. O'Donnell

I am telling you now, in this good building weather, to get on with the job.

Mr. McGrath

I think that is the most ridiculous statement I have heard, in view of the fact that we are told by the Minister for Finance that, if we do the job, we are doing it on our own responsibility. The Minister for Local Government says: "Go ahead——"

Mr. O'Donnell

And I am on record as saying it.

Mr. McGrath

The bank says: "We are not giving you the money." I do not know if the Minister brought back this money with him from France.

Mr. O'Donnell

The Deputy saw a good few French people since, I understand, and he might be able to find out something about it.

Mr. McGrath

I do not know why the two Ministers cannot come to some agreement between themselves.

Mr. Briscoe

Let the Minister be frank and say there is this money difficulty.

Mr. O'Donnell

The financial prompter now advises the Deputy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy McGrath is in possession.

Mr. McGrath

Deputy McGrath wants to know when are we going to get the money.

Mr. O'Donnell

When you build the houses and get on with the building.

Mr. McGrath

I wonder would Deputy Casey, Deputy Barrett and Deputy Larkin ask the workers to wait until the houses are finished before they are paid?

Mr. O'Donnell

I did not suggest that.

Mr. McGrath

The Minister said: "Build the houses and you will get the money."

Mr. O'Donnell

That is a matter entirely for the contractor. Is the contractor here? Surely the contractor can deal with the financial end?

Mr. McGrath

I thought the Minister, as a former official of local government, would know something about local government methods of paying, but now he says the contractor will finance the thing——

Mr. O'Donnell

The contractor pays the men.

Mr. Briscoe

But who pays him?

Mr. McGrath

The contractor pays the men on the architect's certificate of the work he has done.

Mr. O'Donnell

He does not. He pays them every week.

Mr. McGrath

Out of the money he is paid. The men do not get any money until he has a certain amount of work done. It is quite clear from the way the Minister is dodging that he is not going to state any time for the payment of this money. The unfortunate local authority that has been refused money by the bank is now going to be asked to guarantee the building societies two-thirds of their losses for building formerly done under the Small Dwellings Acts.

I went to the trouble of seeing a director of a local building society during the week and the figures he gave me were not as high as those given here to-day by Deputy O'Malley, but he said they could not possibly lend the money at less than 7½ per cent. I think Deputy O'Malley said 8 or 8½ per cent. In order to get the amount of money required to finance these schemes, they will have to give an increased rate to the people who lend the money to them, and he said they could not get money at less than 3¾ per cent. free of income-tax.

Mr. O'Donnell

They will lend the money at the same rate as they are lending it to the ordinary person who builds his own house.

Mr. McGrath

Will the Minister put any ceiling to the interest they will charge? I am telling the Minister that I have been told by a director of a local building society—and I will give Deputy Barrett his name afterwards— that, if they have to finance these housing schemes previously carried out under the Small Dwellings Acts, they could not lend the money at less than 7 per cent.

Mr. O'Donnell

Is he a director of one of the societies that will come into this agreement?

Mr. McGrath

Yes, one of the societies which is going to come into this agreement.

Mr. O'Donnell

Going to?

Mr. McGrath

I do not know whether they are fixed already or not but he left me under the impression that they were going to. It was bad enough for the unfortunate people to have their interest raised to 5¾ per cent., but it is going to be raised now to 7 per cent. and, the local authorities, who carried out their business so badly in Dublin and elsewhere, will get the money to guarantee those people two-thirds of their losses. Was there ever such a joke on the part of a local authority——

Mr. O'Donnell

The Deputy should read my——

Mr. McGrath

I read it. It is very clear.

Mr. O'Donnell

The Deputy should have got somebody to read it for him.

Mr. McGrath

I got a solicitor to read it for me.

Mr. O'Donnell

That is the point. I think the Deputy would not understand it himself.

Mr. McGrath

The Minister should not criticise that profession anyway. The explanation I got was that they will have to pay 7 per cent. for the loan to build their own houses.

Mr. O'Donnell

Will the Deputy say if the solicitor advised him that they will have to pay 7 per cent.?

Mr. McGrath

He did.

Mr. O'Donnell

Did the solicitor advise that in a professional capacity?

Mr. McGrath

Ah, now. I did not pay him any fee.

Mr. O'Donnell

I am not suggesting that the Deputy did.

Mr. McGrath

Why is the Minister trying to get rid of that scheme of financing small dwellings?

Mr. O'Donnell

I am not.

Mr. McGrath

Of course the Minister is. The reason is that the Minister has not got the money and is not honest enough to say so, or will not be allowed to say so. It is going to be passed on. Does Deputy Larkin and the other Labour Deputies believe that the people should pay extra because the Government are not going to finance the thing? I would advise the Minister to be honest, to issue another brochure like this saying: "Ireland has stopped building" and, as soon as that is printed, to get out.

Mr. O'Donnell

You are doing it.

Captain Giles

The two Deputies occupying the Front Benches opposite have carried on the greatest bluff I have ever listened to in this House. They spoke as if there was no problem anywhere except in Dublin and Cork. Rather should we be concentrating on the country areas where there are really derelict places to be built up. On the question generally, I believe there is no need whatsoever for alarm. The financial situation may be difficult but the present Government is a Government of progress and will see that the housing programme is carried out completely.

Deputies who are members of county councils in different parts of the country can discuss things seriously because they know their responsibility and the difficulties with which the present Minister has had to contend. This is a very complex Department of large dimensions; in fact it is far too big. In my view we should have a separate Ministry for housing. We have a Minister for everything else and I do not see why we should not have a Minister for such an important matter as housing. If we had, we would be able to cut out a lot of long-winded nonsense that goes on here. Housing is too important to be dealt with in the manner in which it was dealt with in the speeches by Deputies from Dublin and Cork over the last week.

The housing programme initiated over 30 years ago is a good programme and we have made perhaps as big an advance in that respect as any other country in Europe. We have nothing to be ashamed of if we carry on as in the past until all our people are satisfactorily housed. A vast amount of money was spent on housing, and anything that was spent in that direction was well spent. There are no politics as far as housing is concerned. We must act in the national interest and see that every person from the poorest man in his cabin to the middle-class man—I believe in letting the big man fend for himself—has a decent home to live in.

However, there was no real national plan in our building. We have built houses higgledy-piggledy all over the country without a proper plan. We have built all round the City of Dublin, for instance, a vast number of satellite towns which will keep growing and which in the course of the next 20 years will be linked to the city so that Dublin City will almost cover the whole county of Dublin. That is very stupid and un-national. Dublin is too big already. Do we want to make it bigger? Too much attention is paid to building around the big towns while our villages in parts of the country are a public disgrace. No attempt is made to build them up so that a real community life will exist there.

We have built labourers' houses four or five miles out and given these people each an acre of land. They and their families have to trudge three, four and five miles to church, to schools and shops. Community life should mean a lot in this country especially to people of a Christian outlook, and our villages are completely neglected. Some of them are as small and miserable to-day as they were 30 years ago. I am sure the present Minister is a man of vision and intelligence, and I would urge upon him the necessity of building up our villages so that there will be a community life in them. I want to see that job tackled in the lifetime of the present Government, perhaps in the next ten years, because I expect to see this Government getting at least another two terms.

Mr. Davern

The Deputy is an optimist.

Captain Giles

The evidence of the progress that has been made is there. We have the support of the ordinary people in this country. Fianna Fáil for 30 years tried to keep the big man at the helm. The work is being done now and all the talk we hear about no money for building is pure bluff and nonsense. There is plenty of money for building for the next 20 or 25 years. We who live in the country will see that there will be money for building. No matter what else is neglected, building must go ahead.

There is one bone of contention in my county which in the last four or five years I have brought before the Department and our own council in connection with the Enfield bridge, the most dangerous bridge from Dublin to Galway. They are haggling about it for the last four or five years as to who will do this or that. I want to see my council, C.I.E. and the Minister's Department doing the necessary work to remedy this matter. Many men have lost their lives on that bridge; many men have been injured and many cars smashed year in and year out, and nothing is done about it. When I raised the question at the council meeting I was told the matter was under consideration by the Department and by C.I.E.

I want that job done almost overnight before there is another death, and if there is another death I will raise the matter in public in this House, because when Fianna Fáil were in power I said that if there was another man killed on that bridge I would hold the Minister responsible. Six months afterwards a man did lose his life there. There is not a Deputy who travels from here to Galway who does not realise the danger of this bridge, and I would ask the council, C.I.E. and the Minister to do this job immediately.

Road traffic has become a gigantic problem and I believe something must be done about it. We must compliment the majority of drivers on the manner in which they drive their vehicles under existing conditions. The majority of our people are good, straightforward men so far as driving is concerned, and while I do agree there are many sad accidents, I think there would be dozens of accidents every day if it were not for the gentlemanly way in which the majority of people drive. There are very few blackguardly drivers at present, and I am quite satisfied that the drunken driver is getting the treatment he deserves, that is by taking his licence from him, popping him into Mountjoy and leaving him there until he cools himself. There is a small minority making an outcry about this, but I believe that the majority of our drivers are good drivers, and I drive 30 or 40 miles every night. I find the majority dim their lights, drive only on their own side of the road, and behave decently and honourably to other traffic. I disagree with those who try to make out that our people are all blackguardly drivers. The day of the blackguardly drivers is almost gone and I hope any Minister who has to deal with them will deal with them severely and that they will get no mercy because they are nothing more than marauders and murderers on the highway.

As regards parking cars in large towns, that is a problem that will have to be tackled immediately. I see in my own town of Navan, a very large town, where the main street is very narrow, that when there are cars parked on both sides of it, and when a large vehicle such as a C.I.E. lorry comes along, it either gets jammed in the traffic or smashes the doors or handles of many cars. That problem should be tackled and there should be parking only on alternate sides in towns and cities. Parking on both sides in narrow streets should not be allowed. I hope that matter will be tackled by the Department in an earnest manner.

I do not want to say much more because it has been a long debate but it all centred more or less around Cork and Dublin. In fact, that is what brought me to my feet—Cork and Dublin get too damned much out of the State purse with the result that everybody wants to get into Cork or Dublin. The Cork people are in the position that they are not satisfied until they get to Dublin, but when they get there I am glad to see they stay there, and do not come down to Royal Meath.

Mr. Casey

Perhaps there is nothing for them there?

Captain Giles

There is plenty. One of the biggest problems on our roads is that caused by the heavily-laden lorries. This House failed in its duty in this respect, because I believe no lorries carrying more than three tons should be allowed on the highway at any time. We hear of C.I.E. being broke and that so many millions must be spent each year to prop it up but all that heavy traffic that is on the roads should be going to C.I.E. I believe we could make C.I.E. pay its way but we have done nothing about it. However, it is not too late to see that all these heavy lorries are taken off the highways where there is no place for them. When I look out at home, I see the gypsum lorries carrying 25 or perhaps 50 tons, tearing along the highway—you can hear them five miles away—tearing up the good work done by the county council on those roads. While we have railways, heavy merchandise should be carried on them and I would ask the Minister to do something about that. We should not rob the unfortunate people to keep roads in condition for those heavy vehicles.

The main roads have been a bone of contention for many years and I do not see why there should not be a change. Main roads pass through my county and it takes a fair amount of money from the county council, of which we have to pay our share, to maintain them. In my opinion these are State roads. The State should step in and take over these roads and get rid of this problem for local bodies. County councils have too many problems at the present time. Theirs is a hard task and for every one man they please there are ten who are displeased and they get rebuffs from everyone.

We should also try to break up the duties of local bodies and give some responsibility to parish councils. Personally, I would suggest the formation of parish councils which would have the responsibility of looking after the roads within, say, a five-mile radius of their own villages. I believe if you give a village the responsibility the people there will do the job, and do it well, and perhaps put up 50 per cent. of the money needed for certain schemes, but they have never been asked. There is too much dipping into the State coffers all the time. The State seems to have a hold over everything but its activities are proving too costly. There is not a Department in the State that could not be run better by private enterprise. I am satisfied that if we had a contract system for roads we would save money and get the work well done. Instead we have the system where unfortunate men have to get work on the road. There is also the cost of machinery for which money must be found wherever it comes from.

I do not deny that road repairs carried out by machinery are very good but I am afraid they do away with a good deal of labour and that is a most dangerous thing at the present time. At the present moment, we have Government schemes and county council schemes and I suggest we should see if private enterprise cannot do some of this work. If we find the present system too costly we should get out of the way and let private enterprise take over because private enterprise will get far more out of the individual worker than the county council will get. Men working for the State will work as slowly as they can because the longer the work goes on, the more work they will get. You cannot get a full return in that way, and I do not blame any man for not giving it. It is regarded in the same way as a State pension. The man working for the county council feels so long as he has a shovel in his hands and keeps "sludhering" along and is able to recognise the hum of the different cars coming from Dublin and tell whether it is Deputy Giles or Deputy Tully who is coming, or the Minister himself, he will be all right.

We need not blame these men for that. We know there is squandermama. I hate to see men shirking along the road cutting weeds, maybe, or taking the tops of a few wild flowers or daisies in the month of June. Instead I would be in favour of employing a contractor and saying to the man: "There is a four mile stretch of road; you will get so much per perch if you do it this way, and if you do not you will not get paid." I saw that done in the old days.

Mr. Davern

The old Grand Jury days.

Captain Giles

No, it was in the days of Irish Governments. I do not mean that we should go all out on that system but we should try it out in some places. I do not like to find these men working on the roads in the summer when they are more urgently needed in the fields. I believe that from May to October there should be no man on the highways with the exception of a few employed on contracts or on drainage getting rid of the sedge and grass. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 5th June, 1956.