Before the Minister continues, I should like to ask a question. A letter appeared in the Irish Independent on the day before yesterday to the effect that there was a loss of £80,000 on the three trawlers. If the Minister has any information on the subject, I should like him to give it to us.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 48—Fisheries (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy O.J. Flanagan).
I dealt last night very briefly with the suggestion made by Deputy Dillon that plans for the expansion of our fishery industry might obliterate the employment or livelihood of some 1,600 permanently employed fishermen and I should like to repeat that our efforts, in common with those of other small countries in the process of development, are directed towards the creation of maximum employment and towards expanding the industry without eliminating its present features. I think that should be clear to everybody.
A number of Deputies suggested we could not do very much more than last year, because we did not have sufficient money. I want to make it quite clear that, as compared with the original Estimate in 1956-57, before it was increased by means of a Supplementary Estimate, the increase available for the industry is some £92,000, and although I hope that will be inadequate in future as some of these plans develop, nevertheless it shows that the Minister for Finance and the Government regard the fishing industry as of importance and have given some additional funds in order that we can make some progress therein.
Some Deputies referred to my observations on a certain number of fishermen who appear not to be fishing for as long as they might, not fishing to the optimum, and Deputy Dillon seemed to be surprised to hear that there were fishermen paying on the hire-purchase basis for boats who were in arrears with their payments. I want to make it very clear to the House that there is a considerable number of fishermen in arrears, and in arrears up to 20, 30, 40 and 60 months. In some cases, it is because of bad luck or a breakdown of engines, or due to personal circumstances, but there are still other cases where similar fishing boats manned by the same kind of fishermen with the same experience and the same background are able to pay their instalments in time fishing on the same grounds.
I was not insulting fishermen: I was simply making an appeal as all Ministers in charge of production have done for the past 20 years irrespective of the Government of which they were members, asking those who take part in the industry to do their utmost to increase production, to make it economic, to make it thrive by every means in their power, by utilising every scientific advance and by greater effort. All Ministers have been doing that for years and it applies to the fishing industry as to any other industry. I should like to remind the House that my actual words—I shall not repeat them all now—were: "The operation of boats issued on hire-purchase is not completely satisfactory." That is not a condemnation of fishermen in any particular port, in Killybegs, or anywhere else, as a whole.
I found it difficult to follow Deputy O.J. Flanagan's speech. He seemed to imply that, in relation to the speech I made on the first Estimate of which I had the privilege to be in control and in relation to other speeches which I have made since, nothing new was happening in the fishing world and that anything that was happening had been initiated by his Government. There is no question that different Governments have made some contribution towards the fishing industry. When I came into office, I inherited quite a panoply of services and ideas put into operation at different times. Deputy Bartley, when Parliamentary Secretary in charge of the Department, contributed quite a good deal to the progress made, but, nevertheless, it is not true to say that we are not now making further progress.
There are new ideas being put into operation. An Bord Iascaigh Mhara has increased advances and subventions from the State. There are plans for ice-plants in some four or five centres and for further machinery for the processing of fish, for storage and workshops. All those plans are going ahead this year and there will be a remarkable increase in the supply of ice.
Apart from that, the new training scheme for fishermen is not an extension of any other training scheme that we have had. It is a new effort to train fishermen so that they can secure a certificate which will enable them to become skippers of vessels allocated by An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. Here is an advance of technical education to the fishing world which is definitely long overdue. I know of no reason why we should have fewer fishermen possessing the second-class certificate issued by the Department of Industry and Commerce than any other maritime country on the western seaboard of Europe, and I may say in passing that the lack of technical competence is a factor which affects the whole economy of this country. That fact is now being deplored by all Parties and by all Governments in this country.
There are excellent fishermen without the training who can earn quite good livelihoods in this country and there are others coming along who will take An Bord Iascaigh Mhara boats when we have trained them, so that in future the fishing intake will be greater, the income greater and the reward can be greater for the younger fishermen. I hope I have now made that position clear.
Another entirely new step has been taken in the effort made during the past 12 months to end the long-standing dispute between An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and the wholesale merchants. There have been disputes before this between private organisations and State bodies in other spheres, but there never has been anything like the bitterness that has arisen over the past ten years between the wholesale trade and the board which has been in the position that fishermen who take boats from it on the hire-purchase system have to give to the board their catches for marketing. The board is unlike other State companies in that in this way it would appear to be in competition with the private wholesaler. Most of the activities of the other State companies are definitely restricted by legislation or by the fact that they are selling products, such as turf or sugar.
This dispute has arisen because of the clause of the hire-purchase agreements whereby fishermen must sell their fish, save through exceptional circumstances or where they get special permission, to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. It has created the impression in the minds of the wholesalers that here is a State company, in a privileged position, which draws fish to itself and prevents them from making what they consider their rightful profits. The whole conflict arose because of an illusion, created between the two wars, that wholesalers were to be regarded as a class of thugs and robbers who ruined the fishing industry.
In that period between 1924 and 1939, all commodity prices were fluctuating and wholesalers and purveyors of produce of every kind took the usual attitude of doing their utmost to make increased profits. All over the world, those concerned in producing primary commodities, unprotected by modern economic devices which cushion them against fluctuating prices, were being treated in the same way as our fishermen were being treated, except that our fishermen felt the effects more severely because their numbers were small as compared with the rest of the community and they did not seem to have any special political protection or support.
The Sea Fisheries Association, which was largely promoted by a Fianna Fáil Government, did a considerable amount of good. It did assist the fishermen and helped them to sell their fish and enabled them to get modern boats. One of the big aids given to the fishermen was the prohibition of imports of foreign fish. There was also the expansion of fishing during World War II. As I have said, this dispute arose because of various factors and there was a misunderstanding in regard to the position of the wholesalers who were only acting in the same way as other wholesalers.
I hope the agreement which I believe will shortly be finally authorised will end this dispute. I have had the sincere promise of the private wholesale trade that, if agreement can be reached on this matter, they will make a bigger effort than ever before to expand retail outlets throughout this country. That should result in creating competition between all the interests concerned and it should encourage far more extensive retail outlets throughout the country.
Before the Minister leaves that point would he say has any aspect of this dispute affected the distribution of the packeted quick-freeze fish from Killybegs?
I would not be able to answer that straight away. It would be very difficult to answer it off the reel.
Could the Minister say how the packeted quick-freeze fish from Killybegs is being disposed of, and is it available on the Irish market?
I understand the fish is bought by Bord Iascaigh Mhara and put into quick-freeze until an opportunity offers to sell it at a time of extreme scarcity, and some is taken for the export market. I do not think the operation of that installation is affected by this dispute to any great degree.
Is that installation being used to any extent and what is the annual production from it?
It would be impossible for me to give such figures off the reel at the moment. Another good feature has been the procuring of the Icelandic fisherman who has very great knowledge of modern fishing methods, a man who has been found excellent in other spheres, and who I hope, will stimulate the minds of our fishermen. I know an Irish fisherman who could go abroad and stimulate the minds of foreign fishermen, but I hope this Icelandic fisherman will give useful advice because fishing techniques are changing all over the world. If you read the fishing Press, you will find constant exchanges of advice, of opinions and of techniques, and I hope this man's work will aid our fishermen.
The appointment of a harbour consultant who is experienced in the fishery development of harbours is also a novelty. Good work has been done by the Board of Works in past years but to have the full time services for a period of a person whose mind has been devoted completely to designing fishery harbours, as such, I think will be of great assistance. He will be working closely with the Board of Works and there again I think we can make progress in that way. There have been tremendous delays in the development of our fishery harbours.
Deputy Dillon suggested that a complete survey had been made of the harbours of this country during his time in office, but, in actual fact, this was confined to a more or less preliminary survey of three harbours, and the administrative machinery for continuing the work was stopped in 1956. It was confined, with the exception of one harbour in Cork, to harbours in County Galway, so that all the major work of planning as to what should be the best harbours for development, and making the decision where we should concentrate upon, remains to be done.
I have already indicated that we are in process of constructing an exploratory boat which should be of interest. Some Deputies referred disparagingly to the export trade, but I do not know how we will progress in the fishing industry if we do not export more fish. We might as well say: "Eat more beef", because the eating of fish in this country confers no special economic advantage on the country. If anything, fish replaces eggs. What is needed is the double development of home consumption as well as exports. In that connection, one of the extraordinary deficiencies in this country, under all Governments, has been the complete absence of canneries, canneries for mackerel, herring and sprat. These fish are teaming around our coasts and we have never had established a large-sized cannery for exports. The export of those three types of fish is world wide and it is even a matter of exchange. The British export tinned pelagic fish and import tinned pelagic fish, and one of the greatest advantages of tinned fish is that the traffic in it is two ways.
I hope that some of the projects that have come before the Department will mature. I do not like to talk about projects until I see the foundation stones laid, but, if some of the projects mature, I can say they could readily absorb anything up to one-eighth or one-sixth of the total quantity of fish landed in this country at present. As I have said, I am not going to refer to them until I see the foundation stones laid and it is possible that some of them may not mature. I can say this, that there are more live projects for export in the Department of Fisheries, promoted by serious firms of known reliability and known success, than ever before in the history of the Department.
I am making every effort to stimulate and direct the attention of people in the cannery world to the facilities offered to them under the Undeveloped Areas Act and under the Industrial Grants Act, because I believe there is great hope for considerable employment if we could get these canneries going. I am prepared to take any steps, even to visiting the companies myself, as I did last summer in the case of one particular project, and I am prepared to go anywhere I can see some hope of developing this industry, because each of the developments, the canning of fish, the quick-freezing side, and the curing side of the industry all offer good prospects for the future.
Again, in connection with the export trade, Córas Tráchtála Teoranta is making a survey for us on a bigger scale than ever before. We have an officer of the Department engaged in nothing but developing exports. We have secured concessions in British Railways freight rates which are absolutely essential and vital for the trade from the south coast to Billingsgate and other centres, and negotiations are continuing for further bulk freight rates in connection with the export of fish from other centres. We are sending officers abroad to explore markets. We are appointing a special officer to explore markets and I might add in this connection that all this work is absolutely essential because the marketing of fish is tremendously complex, due to variation in prices, competitive features, and the gluts and scarcities that occur.
The whole development of quick-frozen fish is lined with pitfalls but I want to draw the attention of all Deputies to the fact that any plant with the right kind of quick-freeze, any bacon-curing establishment, any meat-packing establishment plant is capable of the double development of quick-freezing for fish, vegetables and meat, and that industry has an enormous turnover of millions and millions of pounds in Great Britain and in the United States. We have the vegetables, the meats and the fish. Again, as I have said, it is a matter of very careful marketing and very great efficiency. It requires great efficiency to make quite sure that the quick-freeze plant is used to the maximum extent. I hope Deputies will do their best to advertise the need for this particular type of triple quick-freeze process because I find that most of the firms in Great Britain, for example, do not confine themselves exclusively to fish but can all the products.
I am glad to say that there is one project which I think is really certain to mature which does include both fish and agricultural produce. It is obviously to the advantage of the country to have the three of them worked together.
Deputy Dillon referred to the herring market and I hope that fishermen will not take his words pessimistically. There was tremendous fishing in Dunmore East last season. The reason is that the herring fisheries in Scotland are not progressing so well as might be expected, the East Anglian fishing has declined and recently there was a tremendous reduction in the Norwegian herring intake. The herrings move around our coast during nearly the whole of the year. There is always somewhere a limited herring season as well as a major herring season. I believe that there are very great prospects. We had no difficulty whatever in disposing of part of the herring catch last autumn at enormous prices, prices that I do not believe could continue under normal circumstances.
I do agree with Deputy Dillon that if the herring industry is to progress, it must be associated with all the processing features. Herring must be sold fresh and cured in half a dozen different ways and canned and, if necessary, there must be additional fishmeal plants to take herring that are in surplus supply after purchases for all these other purposes have been filled, but I do believe that there is a good future for the herring industry, although I agree with Deputy Dillon that everything in the fish trade is risky. Fish do move away and come. It is a risky, speculative industry. That is why the State has to give aid and make contributions. In that connection, I might add that the facilities of the Undeveloped Areas Act and the Industrial Grants Act are available for fish curing alone and also for fish canneries and for quick-freeze plants.
Another Deputy suggested that activity in the boatyards is declining. Eight boats have been approved and are a-building. This applies to 50 to 56-foot boats. One has been approved and not yet been laid down and some six applications are under consideration. Seven small boats are about to be laid down. There is no shortage of work in the boatyards, either Bord Iascaigh Mhara boatyards or at least one of the private boatyards of which I am aware. We hope that there will be more fishermen applying for boats. There are too few fishermen applying for boats from the South and from the West of the country, exclusive of Donegal. It is one of the sad facts of the last few years that out of 29 boats allocated to fishermen regarded as suitable, some 14 came from the east coast, seven from Donegal and the remainder from the whole of the south coast and up the west coast. I hope that there will be more fishermen applying from the South and West in order to continue the tradition there.
Deputy Dillon referred to the dangers attending upon the introduction of a fleet of 72-foot boats or a fleet of larger trawlers in flooding the home market. The position had been reached already under his Government and under the previous Government with the institution of the 50- and 56-foot boats. We now find that they do not go out sufficiently in bad weather and that they go out and fish very heavily in calm weather and that already there are gluts at one period and scarcities at another. There is no way of fulfilling the one absolutely essential objective of providing regular supplies of fish throughout the year and of making it possible to retail fish throughout the country profitably unless, first of all, we have quick-freeze plants, but they cannot solve the whole problem. Some people will not eat quick-freeze fish. It is not always economic to quick-freeze.
As I said, first of all quick-freeze facilities are required and holding storage facilities and, secondly, we need to have fish on sale to the public at periods when the weather is not of extreme gale force and when larger boats can fish. I fully recognise that we must at the same time have the export outlets or we might flood the market. Even with our quick-freeze plants and even with their capacities to absorb surplus supplies of fish and even with fishmeal plants available, we must have export outlets to prevent the market becoming disordered. I might add that it is very difficult to prevent a disorderly market in the fish world. You have it in Great Britain with all the organisations that exist, the Herring Fishery Board, the White Fish Board, the Deep Sea Trawler Federation. They still have gluts at certain times. Even the fishmeal plants are sometimes overloaded. If we do not make the effort we will simply remain a country which catches 10,000 tons of fish as compared with 106,000 tons caught by other nations around the coast.
May I once again say that the fishing industry in some respects is the same as any other food industry in this country? We are not going to survive as a nation, we are not going to expand our resources unless we can beat our competitors, unless we can overcome all the difficulties of extra freight rates on our fish to Great Britain, either by taking lesser reward for it and accepting a lesser standard of living, simply in order to overcome that one difficulty that will always face us, or else by greater output, so that we can afford to pay the freight rates. The fishing industry is exactly the same as any other food industry. Unless we overcome the difficulties facing us as competitors, there can be no expansion.
Of course, there are difficulties facing us as competitors. The price of fish in England is affected by the price of deep-sea fish, which can be low at times. We have to make quite sure that we enter the market at the right point for all the different varieties of fish, that our transport is efficient, that the fish is well packed, presented and graded. It is a problem that affects the whole country in regard to agriculture.
Some observations were made about my remarks on foreign fishermen. I hope we will have a greater number of applications by young men to join the training school than we have had up to now. The allowance is satisfactory. It enables a young man to live away from home. The income possibilities are quite reasonable. Only 32 applied, and 24 were regarded as suitable for examination and 16 were found on interview to be suitable for training. We need far more. When I spoke of foreign fishermen, I was referring to the possibility that we might develop some of these processing plants. I am speaking of processing in the form of canning. If the processors cannot get their full requirements, mainly for the export trade, from Irish fishermen, I would naturally be obliged to license foreign fishermen to come in and to take part in the operation. If I find that there is an inadequate number of fishing vessels to cater for the whole of the processing trade, the home trade and the export trade, the same thing applies. As soon as these opportunities are afforded Irishmen should be encouraged to come along to be trained knowing that the quotas cannot be filled because of the expansion of the industry. As I have said, all that depends on a number of projects succeeding in the future which are still under examination.
Deputy Dillon suggested we would have steam trawlers here. I do not think any steam trawlers are being built. They are all diesel trawlers.
I think he said we should have no trawlers.
No, he said if they came, they would be steam trawlers. They do not build steam trawlers now but diesel trawlers. I should like to give some idea of what a well-trained skipper and crew working for a period of 40 weeks can earn on a 56-foot boat. These are men with a gift for fishing. An industrious fisherman working under a competent skipper can earn as much as £50 for a good week's herring fishing. Over a working period of 40 weeks, his earnings may average up to £18 a week which is the equivalent of £14 a week for a full year. These figures are additional to the cost of food while on board the fishing boat. The fishing week at present rarely exceeds five days and the average is probably less than four days.
A skipper can earn anything from £1,000 to £1,500 a year after paying all his dues on a 56-foot boat. Those are the actual records of boats on hire-purchase from An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. We know the figures. Perhaps there is an element of good luck in some returns, but at least trained skippers and trained fishermen can earn a good living. This should be an inducement to anyone who has a taste for an occupation that is dangerous but which can be tremendously interesting to a person who has a taste for the sea. I am giving these figures as an inducement to young men who like the sea to take up training and to join our fishing fleets.
With regard to the need for more fishermen, I can give some idea of the number we require. Our landings of demersal fish, that is to say, exclusive of mackerel, herring, sprat and other pelagic fish, in 1957, were 260,000 cwts. If we were to increase this figure by 50 per cent, by means of boats each of which would land 4,000 cwts. a year and carry a crew of nine, we would need 300 additional full-time fishermen. We have now reached a critical point where we barely have enough applicants for Bord Iascaigh Mhara boats for the last three years simply to make progress with the present small but steady increase in the fish intake which has taken place since 1951.
I hope there will be more applicants because, whereas there was a period when the boatyard capacity was not sufficient to supply boats, over the past three years, there have been just sufficient applicants regarded as suitable for the boats, and this year we are looking for more. I might add that no one could be discouraged from taking a boat by the results of either the 1956 or 1957 seasons. There was nothing either in the value or the amount of fish caught to discourage anyone. Both showed an increase. There was no sign of a coming slump. There was no major disaster of any kind in the fishing market at that time. The fish market has been extremely good in this country, with the exception of very short periods.
It has been much too good for the consumer recently because the fishing has been very poor over the past two or three months for ourselves and for the British in the Irish Sea and off the south coast, due, it is believed, to the very poor weather conditions and to the east wind. Good prices have been given for the fish that have been caught. Some fishermen have found it very difficult to make good catches and the prices of many fish have been very high. Nevertheless, taking the whole period over the last three or four years, there is nothing to discourage young men from coming forward to join the fishing industry. We certainly need more of them.
Many observations have been made about the three trawlers that were purchased. One would think that the occasion of the purchase of these offshore trawlers was the only one in the history of the State when a State company undertook some transaction of an experimental character and made considerable losses on it. To hear Deputy Dillon talking, amusingly, but, I think, rather insultingly, about Deputy Bartley's efforts in this direction, you would think it was the only time a State company had made a mistake. State companies and private companies occasionally find that their efforts in a particular development are not successful. I admit the history of these trawlers has been rather unhappy. I do not think anybody expected that the engines would break down or that there would have been difficulties in their maintenance. Anyway, the facts are that they are operating now and being used for training. They have been found suitable for fishing on the eastern coast and I think the money recently put into re-engining them will be worth while from the point of view of their capacity for training. This will be as economic a method as any other for providing fishing capacity for training purposes.
Before the Minister leaves that matter, will he say if he has any information as to the policy treatment in relation to these three vessels by his predecessor, whereby they were placed in the same category as beet, wheat, peat, Constellation aeroplanes and diesel traction on the railways?
There was a sort of cynical indifference shown to these three trawlers during the period of the Coalition Government when a proper investigation should have been made into the uses which they could serve and the part they could play, having been bought in the interests of the fishing industry. I hope they will prove useful from now on.
Would the Minister find out who was responsible for buying these three trawlers?
I accepted responsibility in this House for them and I do now.
£120,000 worth.
Does the Deputy know the financial history of the ordinary boats in this country? Let him take the whole picture——
The Minister is in possession. He must be allowed to conclude his statement.
He knows, as everybody else knows, that three duds were bought with the taxpayers' money. Results count.
They were made duds by the Deputy's Minister.
The engines were out of them before the Deputy's Minister was in office.
He saw to it that they were "dudified".
Order! The Minister to conclude.
It is a pity that Deputy Manley——
The Minister must be allowed to conclude his statement without interruption. The discussion may not be reopened.
I beg pardon of the Ceann Comhairle and of the Minister. I considered I was at liberty to interrupt when Deputy Bartley was permitted——
The Deputy is aggravating whatever offence he committed by continuing——
I can refer to a much larger sum of money lost during the Coalition period of Government when they sold the Constellations, if there is to be any reference to the comparatively minor loss on three trawlers.
If the Minister gets off the subject, we shall get on to him.
The Minister should stick to the sea now.
Deputy Dr. Esmonde referred to Kilmore Harbour. Kilmore has been inspected by the harbour consultants. He made a suggestion, I think, that we might adopt the use of second-hand boats. We find that a great many of the second-hand boats mentioned to us are out of date, though there may be exceptions, and we do not encourage the policy of issuing loans for second-hand boats.
Deputy Palmer and Deputy Desmond referred to the fact that frequently fish is not available near seaports and that fish is not available in a great many centres. There has been an increase in the number of retail outlets for fish in the past year. Obviously, we could not increase the intake of fish by 41 per cent. unless these outlets had expanded. Far more are needed. I hope the ending of the dispute between the wholesale interests and An Bord Iascaigh Mhara will result in the expansion of retail outlets and more trade in the country.
The reason fishermen send their fish to Dublin is twofold. In the first place, they are accustomed to work with a particular auctioneer and they feel they will get the best price for their fish in Dublin. Secondly, in outlying places, they fill a lorry completely with fish, as far as they can. The more fish they put in the lorry going to Dublin, the less it costs each fisherman for his fish. Therefore, you get cases such as in Castletownbere, for example, where very little fish is retailed in the neighbouring district because the lorry leaves two or three times a week for Dublin.
The fishermen get accustomed to their personal contact in Dublin. There are Bord Iascaigh Mhara agents in most of the important ports who will arrange for the auctioning of fish locally, who will arrange to dispose of it locally. The difficulty is that there are far too few private merchants who are prepared to pay what the fishermen consider to be the Dublin price and to take the fish in their vans and distribute it throughout the country. The fact that this goes on in certain ports shows what can be done. The irregular supplies of fish make local retailing difficult. A man may be accustomed to take his van to a seaport on Wednesdays, Thursdays and Fridays. There are overheads in connection with this operation. He has to make his rounds. If, in bad weather, there are very considerable periods when no fish are left over, after Dublin has taken its requirements, it does not pay that man to go looking for supplies of fish which are not available. The only possible solution is more fish, more regularly supplied, with less acute periods of scarcity due not always to disastrous weather but simply to poor weather conditions.
Deputy Kyne referred to fish landed at Helvic. I am given to understand that fish can be sold either to private buyers through the agent of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara or sent to Dublin. I have not heard any suggestion of any kind of racket that exists whereby only a certain amount of fish will be bought. I should be very glad to have more information from Deputy Kyne about that. This is the first occasion in the past 15 months that I have been told that, in a particular place, the only persons to whom the fish can be sold refuse to take more than a certain amount and that there are no other outlets. I should like further information on that matter because, from my point of view, it is a most unusual experience.
Other Deputies referred to the need for improving the cooking of fish. I am glad to say a circular is now about to be issued from the Department of Education. It advocates that vocational education committees should approve a course in fish cookery in their curriculum. Fish cooking is not taught in a great many technical schools. In view of the importance of the industry, I hope the cookery courses will include fish in future. Advertisements of fish recipes have been published jointly by An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and the merchants, which have been very highly praised. Cookery books have been issued. A lot of work has been done in that regard but I think probably more should be done in the future.
Deputy Giles was rather unkind to the fish retailers in the Midlands. If he makes inquiries, I think he will find that recently the retail outlets, at least in Navan and Kells, have improved.
Some of them.
There are retailers in Navan who are even purchasing fish daily from the Dublin wholesale markets. I agree with the Deputy that we need to make further extensions.
Deputy Moloney referred to some difficulties of fish marketing in Dingle. In that connection, about half the fishermen of Dingle sell their fish on commission and the other half by means of a fixed price arrangement. The fixed price arrangement is not satisfactory. I do not think it is of any ultimate advantage to the fishermen. Probably it will slowly be given up. I do not think it has been at all successful, in practice.
A number of Deputies referred to the fact that, at some meetings of fishermen, no Opposition Deputy was invited. I have had more invitations from associations of fishermen than I can possibly accept in a short period. I have been around many of the fishing centres, on the invitation of fishermen's associations or a local development association, or a combination of the merchants and the fishermen. I leave it to the association to make the arrangements when inviting local Deputies. That is the normal thing. Occasionally, I have had purely private conferences on rather more technical matters when there was no question of a Deputy attending unless he particularly wanted to.
Would the Minister not think it desirable that, if any Deputy particularly wanted to attend a meeting, he should have the opportunity of doing so?
I should always be delighted if Deputies of any Parties came to these public meetings.
The Minister does not invite them.
I leave it to the association to issue the invitation. Sometimes they notify county councillors. At other times, they feel the nature of the meeting will be such that the county councillors need not be notified.
Deputy Palmer said no boat had been awarded in the Kerry area. Recently, we issued a 56-foot boat to a Kerry fisherman. The question was asked whether the boats built in Irish yards are more expensive than those built elsewhere. I am told that the costings in the boatyards are under constant review and that the prices are reasonably competitive.
Deputy Brennan and Deputy Cunningham raised the question of two harbours in County Donegal, Killybegs and Greencastle. I am very glad to say that in connection with the initial work of the harbour consultant it has been found possible, in those cases, to proceed with some development work which will not in any event conflict with the harbour consultant's report on later development. If I can find any other instances where improvements can be effected without waiting for the major plan of the harbour consultant, in respect of the major harbours, I shall see that the work is expedited as far as possible. In those two cases it appears to be possible to go ahead.
Some Deputies asked about grants for harbour work. They are subject to a contribution of 50 per cent. by the county council and have to be maintained by them. I shall make every effort to encourage county councils to make these contributions to harbours which are regarded as satisfactory.
Deputy Coogan asked for information about the Galway ice plant. Here was a case of a plant of a particular size which, in fact, need not have been as large in the first instance. It was authorised some time in 1953 or 1954 as a National Development Fund project and the project was taken over by the Government which took over in April, 1954. It was up to that Government, before they put the project in its final form, and before they encouraged An Bord Iascaigh Mhara to go ahead with the plan, to make quite sure that increasing supplies of fish would be available to a greater degree, and whether the plant in that particular form was of the right size. In fact, there was only one application for a boat from the Galway area in 1954 and 1955 and the building did not commence until some time in 1956. It was up to the board, first of all, in my view, and secondly up to the Minister in charge of Fisheries, to look into the project and ask: "Should this be so large, if there are insufficient applications for boats and no sign of the fish intake showing some signs of expansion?" If that had been done, they might have proposed that a smaller plant could have been built.
Furthermore, there was a change made in the character of the Gaeltacht boat scheme. The Gaeltacht boat scheme was not initiated by Deputy Dillon. He seems to forget that sanction for the £80,000 was issued in the time of the Fianna Fáil Government, before its fall in 1954, and, I am glad to say, was taken on by the new Government. In connection with that scheme it was felt that it would be good to have a number of fishermen, in the first instance, from Galway working together and speaking Irish over the radio telephone to one another. These were expected to increase the intake of the processing plant. A change was made and fishermen from all parts of the country were chosen and the potential capacity of the Galway plant was reduced in that way.
I hope every effort will be made to use the Galway plant. I hope fishing will expand in Galway. I hope we shall have more applications for boats from the Galway area. It is my hope that the plant will become useful in time, but I am afraid it was the responsibility of the board, and the Department of Fisheries, at that time and before the plans were finally sanctioned, to look again at the potential fishing capacity in Galway because the plans could have been modified.
What about the fishing prospects around Clew Bay and Mayo?
We have very few applications from that area, and, as the Deputy knows, most of the harbours in the Mayo district are not suitable for the large boats. I am doing all I can to listen to representations from Deputy Doherty, and other Deputies, to see what can be done to expand the fishing industry in Mayo and all the observations that have been made to help the Blacksod fishermen.
I hope the Minister has not forgotten Deputy Calleary or there will be jealousy in North Mayo.
Deputy Coogan also asked for more protection for the oyster beds. He seems to have forgotten that in the new Fisheries Act, which is about to be signed by the President, arrangements have been made for the Galway board of conservators to protect the oyster beds. Our experts are down there fairly constantly doing their best to maintain the oyster production, and research is being carried out in Clew Bay to see what more can be done to expand the industry.
Has the Minister any late news about the development of the sowing of oysters in Clew Bay?
Except that there were more records broken there yesterday.
I am referring to the oysters.
I thought the Deputy was referring to the angling championships.
We sowed oysters in Killary Bay.
No, the officials refuse to commit themselves, except to speak of a limited success. It may be very difficult to restore the oyster beds. At one time oysters were a penny each and were the poor man's food. In the last 100 years, they have become a luxury food due to diseases and so on. Deputy Coogan asked a question about the Lough Corrib Canal intake. The cost of keeping the water from seeping through the swallow-holes would be very high and would even result in claims for damage from people with water rights. The water coming into the swallow-holes quite possibly supplies wells several miles away. It would be a most expensive and difficult procedure.
Deputy Brennan referred to the speed with which the Erne inquiry was conducted. There were 28 days left to appeal against the decision and no effort was made to appeal. Once again I should say the by-law prohibiting fishing in the tidal waters was for the purpose of restoring the livelihood of the fishermen concerned, because runs of salmon had reached a dangerously low level. Some Deputies asked me again to assert that the revenue from the increased rod licences, and the Salmon Conservancy Fund, would go back 100 per cent. to the boards. I should like to repeat that since the rod licence fees have been changed, we have ways and means of securing that each board will continue to receive a fair proportion of the revenue and there will be no reduction in the revenue received, as between one board and another, as a result of the change.
One Deputy referred to Dingle and to hire-purchase instalments. Instalments should be paid regularly by fishermen. The board found it necessary to see that the fishermen had a clear sheet before they entered new transactions and that they would honour their obligations. The arrangements for credit sales are quite reasonable and most fishermen appear to be able to discharge their obligations in that regard.
Deputy Flanagan and Deputy Giles referred to the difficulties in the Boyne river. Research has been continuing in regard to that, and Bord na Móna are showing the utmost co-operation. I hope some progress will be made. In the meantime, fry have been put into the Boyne river to restore the position as far as possible. The mussel industry will not be destroyed by the drainage operations in Drogheda harbour.
Deputy Wycherley referred to the work of the Inland Fisheries Trust in County Cork. He was being a little pessimistic. The work will be done in County Cork for inland fisheries. The Reenydonegan lake will be closed from the sea for the purpose of developing sea trout there. Lough Avaul has been the subject of predatory removal and work has also been done on Inchigeela Lake.
I think that is all I need say on this Estimate. I have covered almost all the important points raised by Deputies. I should like again to thank the House for the many sympathetic observations made. I should also like to indicate again that when I speak hopefully of progress in the fishery industry and when I make statements indicating that great progress can be made, I do not underestimate the difficulty. It is one of the most complex industries in the world—the fishery industry in all its aspects, from the catching of the fish to its processing and retailing. I believe there is hope for the future, and the plans which have been put into operation this year should, I think, contribute to the prosperity of our fisheries.
Before you put the Vote, Sir, would the Minister be in a position to say something about the closing of the gap in the Thomond fish weir at Limerick? I think some representations have been made to the Minister in this matter. It is a matter of considerable concern to the Limerick and District Anglers' Association. It has been closed since 1942, by the authority of his Department.
I am afraid the Deputy will have to put a question down about it. I would be unable to deal with it at this stage.
I shall, certainly.
Motion put and declared lost.
Original motion put and agreed to.