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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 12 Dec 1958

Vol. 171 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Vote 50—Industry and Commerce.

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £50,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of the March, 1959, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain Subsidies and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The House will recollect that I stated earlier in the year when the plans for the reorganisation of the Dundalk works were under discussion here that, if we found any of the wage grade staffs formerly employed there could not be fitted into the new organisation, it would be my intention to put the company in a position to do something about the situation by way of ex gratia payments to the workers concerned. At that time we had in mind the possibility that some of the former employees of the G.N.R. would not, for one reason or another, be taken on by any of the new commercial companies to be set up. While we visualised the possibility of some dislocation of employment at Dundalk during the process of rebuilding and re-equipping the shops, the extent of the possible dislocation could not then be fully measured.

When it became clear that the process of rebuilding and re-equipping would cause a degree of dislocation involving the laying-off of some workers for a time, the board, in consultation with me, decided to assist the workers concerned by the way of interim weekly payments to them under the description of "stand off pay" to supplement the unemployment insurance benefit to which they would normally be eligible on being laid off. I undertook to move an Estimate here to recoup the company in respect of that outlay.

It will be appreciated that this company will in character and in fact be a private enterprise. Conceivably it could meet the cost of these payments out of its own resources but in view of the desire to ensure that it will not be saddled with any unproductive outlay and that it will be given every opportunity of developing successfully. I think that, in all the very special circumstances of this case, we are justified in putting this charge on the national Exchequer.

In the case of permanent redundancy, the board are not yet in a position to state with any precision the extent that it may have but all the indications are that it will not be very considerable and that the number of workers to whom they will make these special payments will be less than 5 per cent. of the original staff employed at Dundalk. In their case, it is proposed to pay lump sums amounting to one month's pay for each completed year of service up to a maximum of 24. The rate of compensation will be calculated on the basis of the worker's basic pay at the termination of his employment and the calculation of the length of employment will not include any periods served as a trade apprentice. In the case of a worker with interrupted employment, a worker who for any reason was laid off during the time of his employment with the G.N.R. Company, his service will be reckoned as the total of two or more spells of employment with the G.N.R. and the Dundalk Engineering Works irrespective of the cause of the interruption of service. Any temporary absence due to illness of not more than one year's duration will be reckoned as service for the purpose of the calculation. The payments will be made in accordance with particulars furnished by the company and certified by their auditor in regard to all the workers concerned.

The position at the beginning of this month was that there were in employment at Dundalk 619 workers and a further 92 workers were in permanent employment elsewhere awaiting recall to Dundalk. The number of workers who were laid off during this reconstruction period was 256 and, of course, the period during which they will be disemployed will vary for different sections. The present position there is that the parent company, which will not now be called the Dundalk Engineering Works but the Industrial Engineering Company Limited, is proceeding to get these subsidiary undertakings organised into production.

As the House has been informed, there will be five such undertakings. There will be the Dundalk Engineering Works, which will be a commercial engineering concern; the Dalgan Steel Founders, Limited, which will operate the new steel foundry; a company called Frank Bonser and Company, Limited, which has been formed in association with a British company for the production of certain types of agricultural machinery and, in that respect, all the plant from the British works has already been transferred to Dundalk and is now being installed there. There will be the Heinkel Cabin Scooter Company and a company called Commercial Road Vehicles, which will be undertaking the production of heavy-duty road vehicles chassis. All these companies have now been registered and the company is striving to get them all into full commercial production as soon as possible.

The payments to workers, who are temporarily laid off, to supplement their unemployment insurance benefit were made for the first time at the beginning of this month but dated back to the 1st October last. The first payments were in respect of the eight weeks' period from 1st October to 26th November. I think that the amount provided by the Estimate will be more than adequate to meet the outgoings of the company in respect of these payments but, of course, only the actual amount so paid out by the company will be recouped by the Exchequer.

How many are still standing off and how long is it anticipated that they will be so standing off?

I mentioned that the number temporarily laid off is 256, but I could not answer the second part of the question because they will be taken back as they are required and as the work of rebuilding and reconstruction is completed.

Is the figure 256 the latest information?

As at the 1st of this month.

Is there any indication as to the rate at which they will come back?

I could not say that. There are five separate undertakings which are being brought into production as quickly as possible.

There is a slowing down in the rate at which the men are being brought back at the moment. Personally I was very glad to see that about three-quarters of the total staff are back at the present time. With regard to the lump sum which is being paid, I presume it has not been paid as yet?

No. Indeed, I want to make it clear that it has not yet been determined that any particular individual worker is in that category that there will not be employment for him eventually.

Can the Minister say when the company will be in a position to determine specifically how many men will receive a lump sum?

I should say not for some weeks yet anyway.

Is there any time limit set?

There are five separate companies, each an individual commercial enterprise with different activities to direct. It is hoped, of course, that the activities of these five companies will ultimately absorb all the workers but it may be that some workers will not be required by any of the five companies. It will be only at some stage when the companies are in production, when their immediate labour requirements have been stabilised, that it will become obvious that some workers have not been absorbed. It is not anticipated that that will be a very large number. It will be quite small.

Is there any estimate at all as to the number who will likely get these compensation terms?

The indications are that the number will be 3 or 4 per cent. of the former employment.

That is 4 per cent. of 1,000?

Yes. It will be somewhere around that.

Assuming that a man is not re-employed at the moment and takes up a job somewhere else in a non-State company and eventually, when the time limit expires for taking back staff, will that particular man get a lump sum, even though he may be working in some non-State company, a fact of which the Minister or anybody else may not be aware?

The Deputy understands that there are no set rules covering this matter. There is a provision for ex gratia Payments where it is obvious that they are justified. In the case of temporary unemployment, there is no great problem because the payment is being made only to men actually receiving unemployment insurance benefit and therefore can be assumed to be unemployed. In the other case, I take it, the circumstances in individual cases will have to be examined. I should think that these payments will be made in the main to men who, because of their long association with the Dundalk Engineering Works, are not likely to be employed elsewhere.

Will the Minister deal with the point raised by the Deputy Coburn? Suppose some of these people are not likely to get a job in any of the five companies, that a man goes off and fends for himself and gets some kind of job.

He would qualify. Take the case of some number of workers from Dundalk who are employed in the Whitegate refinery. If they do not come back, there will be no lump sum payment for them. It all depends on the circumstances of the case. The purpose of the Bill is to provide compensation for men for their inability to get employment.

If you take that line, will you not produce a deterrent to keep people from seeking employment?

Is it the position that if a man hangs around Dundalk and does nothing, he will get compensation, while the man who goes out and gets a job for himself will not get compensation?

At a certain stage, the company will say: "These men have no longer any reasonable prospect of getting employment and therefore we will declare them redundant and make this compensation to them." There will be no strings attached to the payment.

The person who hangs around Dundalk and does nothing will benefit, but if a person gets a job, he will be deprived of this compensation.

This compensation will be paid only to workers who are unlikely to be recalled for employment at Dundalk. A man who refuses to come back to employment at Dundalk will get no payment at all. When, at the end of the development operations, it is found that some men are not recalled because they cannot be fitted in, then the question of the lump sum payment arises.

If he has another job and is not recalled, then his claim stands?

Yes, it is an ex gratia payment and will depend on the individual circumstances.

The person I have mentioned who goes out and gets a job will be no worse off than the person who did not go out and look for a job?

What will be the position with regard to railway work as such in relation to contracts with C.I.E.? In yesterday's Irish Independent there was a reference to compensation paid to redundant workers at Inchicore. What I am anxious to know is whether there will be a continuance of railway work in Dundalk. There are a number of men there who depend solely on the continuation of that kind of work. We know that the various private concerns are anxious to get the railway work out of the way so that they can go ahead with their private plans. As the Minister knows, the local shop is ideally fitted for the doing of this work and the men are specialists in it. It would be a pity if every effort were not made to channel as much railway work as possible into Dundalk.

What will be the position when the re-adaptation of the existing shops is finished? They are being adapted to fit in with the new plans and most of the men are, naturally, engaged in labouring work. When the work has been finished and the shops are completed, the chances are that a number of these men will be laid off again. I should welcome an assurance from the Minister that every effort will be made to send as much railway work as possible to Dundalk to fill that gap.

I should like to mention a fact of which the Minister must be aware, that the employment position in Dundalk is not very good, apart altogether from the railway aspect. Recently a number of men were dismissed from one of the local breweries. I mention that to emphasise the importance of doing everything to ensure that the Dundalk Engineering Works will prosper and be a source of much employment to the men in the future.

There is one point to which my attention has been directed which has relation to the fact that at the moment a certain amount of overtime is being worked in Dundalk. I do not know whether that can be avoided or not. I assume that certain contracts have been obtained which it is desirable to turn out as quickly as possible, but it appears unfair to give overtime to some of the men while some other men, former employees at the works, are walking about the streets. I do not condemn the management for doing that, but it does seem strange. I understand that it would not be fair to bring back a handful of men in order to get the work done on time and then dismiss them again.

I should welcome an assurance from the Minister, if he can give it, that the amount of employment available will be spread over as many men as possible and that preference will be given, not only to married men with families, but to certain single men who have the responsibility of supporting either their parents or brothers or sisters.

I want to make one inquiry from the Minister. The Minister referred to the five new industries which would grow from the present Dundalk Engineering Works, itself being one of the five and the parent company having some new engineering appellation.

The Industrial Engineering Company.

How is it proposed to finance the five companies? Is it intended that the State should put them in funds or that they should go on the public market or to the Industrial Credit Corporation? Is there to be any private capital of any kind or is it to be exclusively State capital?

I want to raise two points, one of which has been already mentioned by Deputy Norton. The Minister did say that this concern, both in character and in fact, to use his own words, was a private concern. When we were discussing the legislation here some time ago, he said exactly the opposite and made it clear that the capital was going to be provided, in some shape or form, by the Exchequer and, if possible, there would be legislation to deal with it. I think the appointment of the directors was a matter which the Minister had dealt with at that time, certainly in so far as the chairman was concerned, and I do not think it was quite accurate to say that both in character and in fact this was a private concern.

It is desirable that we should have it made quite clear for the record what the intention is. It does seem to me that the Minister, by the answer he indicated a minute ago, is putting a premium on lack of enterprise. I can see the point of view that if people are wanted to come back and do not come back the Minister can say fairly that disentitles them absolutely from that date to compensation.

It seems to me that the scheme, as has been announced by the Minister, declares a premium on a person not making any effort for himself. While all of us hope that the maximum possible work will be available in Dundalk for the personnel concerned, I do not think the Minister is very hopeful that the work which will be available will embrace all those who will be seeking work. If that is so, would it not be far better to have some scheme of compensation or, perhaps, gratuity on a different basis so that anyone who was sufficiently enterprising to go and get himself another job in Dundalk or in any other part of the country would, when he did so, have the option of saying: I am no longer to be regarded as a possible compensation charge in Dundalk. I have found myself another productive niche in the body politic and, accordingly, I am applying for a gratuity on another or limited basis. It would be well worth while from the point of view of building up morale if something on that line could be done.

One of the great difficulties we have had—and this refers to every Government—is that we have always taken the line that in the long run the person who has not made any effort for himself is the person who should reap more benefit than the man who has. That is very bad public morale. Some type of a limited gratuity scheme—more limited, perhaps, than the compensation that might be payable—would be well worth while from a public morale point of view. If a person could find alternative employment and be able to say that he had got himself something else and would no longer be regarded as a possible charge on Dundalk some scheme on the line I suggested would improve public morale. As well as that it would mean that the Dundalk works would be faced with fewer problems in the future.

I think the Deputy may be quite certain that the operation of this compensation arrangement will be designed to ensure that there will be no discouragement to any worker to get any other employment that may be available to him. When he is required at Dundalk, he will be called back. If he declines to come, that will be the end of the matter. If he is not called back, then, irrespective of the circumstances under which he is then in employment, the probability is that he will be regarded as eligible for compensation payment. This is not a statutory scheme with fixed rules. The circumstances of individual cases will be taken into account.

Who will administer the scheme?

The board.

Is there any appeal against their decision?

I want to make it clear that no rules are drawn up. The company said they aimed to resolve the situation in a particular manner. I told them to go ahead and resolve the situation in that way. With regard to the prospects at Dundalk, first of all, attention must be directed to the fact that the C.I.E. Board have already entered into an agreement with the Dundalk Engineering Works, to have done for them at Dundalk all the work that would have been done there for the G.N.R. part of the C.I.E. system as if the amalgamation of the two organisations had not taken place.

All the indications available to me show that the relationship between the C.I.E. management and the Dundalk management is quite harmonious and that there will be a general desire on the part of C.I.E. to help out Dundalk in any difficulties that they may encounter during their initial development period. Of course, there will be no question of transferring to Dundalk any specific block of works now performed for C.I.E. in the C.I.E. workshop. I do not think that is intended.

It is true that this commercial engineering concern which will be fulfilling the C.I.E. contract will also be seeking other types of engineering work. Taking the long-term view as to the amount of railway engineering work likely to arise in this country in the future, the more successful they are in getting other types of general engineering production under way the greater will be the security of employment in that section of the enterprise and the greater its chance of expanding from the position now contemplated.

The board of the company have conveyed to me generally an optimistic outlook on the prospects of work in the Dundalk development. It is to be appreciated that a fundamental change has taken place in the situation there. There was a railway engineering works therefore the annual output of which was related to railway activity and it could be foreshadowed for a long period ahead. There are now commercial enterprises the success of which will depend on their ability to sell their products in competitive markets. While these companies will be starting off with many competitive advantages in the form of new equipment and market contacts, their future success will, of course, depend entirely on the ability with which they are directed and the availability of markets for the things they produce.

I would agree with Deputy Coburn it would be undesirable that unnecessary overtime should be worked at Dundalk. It should be appreciated that there will be circumstances in which an amount of overtime by certain workers is necessary and which could not be substituted by the employment of additional workers. The whole aim is to get this process of re-equipment completed so that commercial work can begin and so that the earning of revenue will start. The company is now engaged in the operation of getting these five separate enterprises into production.

As I said some weeks ago in Dundalk, the development of activities there is not limited to these five companies. Certain other possibilities are being explored. The company, quite rightly, have decided that they should concentrate on the immediate job of getting these five enterprises under way before exploring new possibilities.

How many of them have gone into production?

To an extent there is an amount of engineering work being done there. The Heinkel Works are in production although not in full manufacture. They are assembling parts which have been purchased for the purpose of training their workers and gradually building up their full manufacturing programme. I hope to see them all in commercial production quite early next year.

With regard to the financing of the enterprise, I think Deputy Sweetman must have misunderstood something I said before, because the intention is, as I made quite clear here, that its development will be financed by an issue of shares. It is true I said I expected that the entire amount of the first issue would have to be taken up by the Industrial Credit Corporation and held by them for a time. They will not, I think, contemplate putting them on the market or inviting private subscriptions for the shares until they had some commercial success to show, which would help to contribute to the success of such an operation.

That process of completing the financial arrangement with an issue of shares, and the provision of the permanent capital of the company has been delayed somewhat by the protracted and rather serious illness of the chairman. I hope he will be back in full activity in the early future, but the process of finalising the negotiations and signing the documents has been held up by reason of his illness.

Is it intended to provide for the idea of a public issue of shares?

At a later stage— not now.

In the meantime where do they get the capital?

The Industrial Credit Corporation will take up the whole of the amount.

In the hope that they can ultimately float the shares on the market themselves?

The position will be that the shares will be held by the Industrial Credit Corporation, who will be the owners of the shares and who at a later stage may decide to offer these shares for public subscription.

That is not quite the same as an underwriting operation.

It is not, but it is a normal type of activity in which the Industrial Credit Corporation would engage.

What share capital is it intended to have?

That is one of the matters which has not yet been settled. There is a general agreement as to the total amount that must be provided and the division of that amount between ordinary share capital and loan capital has yet to be settled.

The entire share capital is going to be handled by the Industrial Credit Corporation in that way?

Again, I think there is a possibility in respect of part of the loan capital——

But on the ordinary share capital?

The position will be that this Industrial Engineering Company will be the parent company and it will complete the process of rebuilding the shops and re-equipping them and then enter into arrangements with the separate concerns under which they will eventually repay to the parent company the amount so invested by the parent company. At some stage, 20 or 25 years ahead, no doubt, this parent company may go out of existence and each of the separate concerns will be completely independent and in full ownership of its assets. For the time being, they will be subsidiaries of the parent company but working towards full independent status.

How does the Minister visualise the parent company going out of existence in 25 years? How would he make an offer for the sale of the shares, if he visualises that? That does not make sense.

The parent company builds a factory and says to the subsidiary company: "Here is a premises which cost £50,000. You will pay us £5,000 a year, plus interest, and at the end of ten years the factory is yours." The payments going into the parent company will be adequate to remunerate and repay that capital and that capital, no doubt, will be represented by a loan obligation on the parent company. Furthermore, the parent company will have an investment in the enterprise and the profits made will determine the value of that investment.

I may be very stupid this morning but I just do not understand.

That is the general picture anyway, so far as I can give it.

We will, perhaps, have an opportunity on the Minister's Estimate to get it more clearly.

I want to make it clear again that the Government is not providing the finance in this matter. The money for the Dundalk Engineering Works will be provided mainly through the Industrial Credit Corporation, and possibly by the Industrial Credit Corporation in association with certain other institutions, but the Exchequer will not contribute any money. We have, of course, already guaranteed a loan raised by the company to get over its early stages.

Of course, the Exchequer provides the Industrial Credit Corporation with moneys. That is a queer distinction. It is a distinction without a difference.

Finally, I want to say I think there is no reason why this enterprise at Dundalk should not be successful, in the sense that they will be able to absorb the bulk of the workers formerly employed in the G.N.R. works and gradually to grow up from that level to a still higher level. It would perhaps be unduly optimistic to think that each one of the five enterprises will be as successful as the others. Some will be more successful, but at the moment it is impossible to draw any picture as to how things might develop. The expectation is that they will be able to start off with a volume of business sufficient to absorb the bulk of the workers formerly employed by the G.N.R. and from there each will be on its own. I am certain that the future growth of these enterprises is to be anticipated, just as we would expect any other private commercial enterprise which started on the right lines gradually to expand and enlarge its business.

I want to raise one matter. I understood the Minister to say that if a person were laid off by the Dundalk Engineering Works and went and found other employment for himself, he was liable to be recalled by the Dundalk Engineering Works and if he was so recalled and did not resume his duties with that company, he forfeited his claim to compensation.

The company have no further obligation to him.

But, if having gone and got a job for himself, he waits for, but receives no invitation to come back to employment with the Dundalk Engineering Works, and they, in fact, have no work for him, then even though he got a job elsewhere, he will be eligible for compensation?

He would probably be regarded as eligible.

In case the board of the company would be unreasonable in a matter of this kind, surely there should be some means of appealing against that possibility.

I think the Deputy will appreciate the difficulty of this company in committing itself now in regard to any of these cases. It is not dealing with a situation where every possibility cannot be foreseen, but the intention is that those who are not re-employed by the Dundalk Engineering Works and who were formerly employed by the G.N.R. will receive this payment.

I hope it will not be approached in a niggling fashion.

Part of the problem of the company will be to make sure they have available a certain number of craftsmen to go into employment in Dundalk.

I think we understand one another here but I am not too sure that the same atmosphere will prevail elsewhere. I want to provide for the case of a man who, having gone and got a job for himself, receives no offer of re-employment at Dundalk.

And is anxious to get it.

And is anxious to get it. Of course the company can put itself right by offering him a job, but if they do not offer him a job, the fact that through his own industry he gets another job——

That will not debar him.

I shall take the Minister's assurance on that.

What about the case of men who happen to be employed by a State company and who are receiving as much as they formerly received? Suppose a man enters into a contract with another firm not to work for four or five years—I am not saying it will happen but suppose it did?

Clearly it is up to that man to make up his own mind and make his decision on that.

It depends on how good the new job is.

Vote agreed to.
Vote reported and agreed to.
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