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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 Apr 1959

Vol. 174 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 26—Office of the Minister for Justice.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £67,800 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1960, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, including certain other Services administered by that Office.

I propose, with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle and if it is agreeable to the House, to follow the practice of previous years and to deal with the Votes for which the Minister for Justice is responsible, namely Nos. 26 to 34, as a group so that there may be one general discussion, without, of course, prejudicing the right of any Deputy to raise any particular point on a particular Vote.

Taking the group of Estimates together, they show an increase of about £185,000 of which £151,000 is accounted for by the increase in the provision that has had to be made for police pensions. The upward trend in the expenditure on such pensions is likely to continue for some years to come as there are over 3,000 members of the Force with sufficient service to enable them to retire on pension whenever they wish. The remaining £34,000 is accounted for almost entirely by increases in remuneration.

As regards Vote 26, that is to say, the Vote for my own Office, practically all of the amount asked for is required to meet the salaries of the staff. There is little or nothing else in the Vote. The estimated expenditure is much the same as last year, but I have had to ask for a little more because of the general increase in Civil Service remuneration and because there are some normal incremental increases that have to be met. The Department of Justice is responsible for the administration and business generally of the public services in connection with law, justice, public order and police and has, besides, to administer miscellaneous statutes of great importance to the public such as those which deal with nationality and citizenship, aliens, betting, censorship, the licensing laws, adoption and so on. In what follows I shall touch very briefly on some of these matters.

To begin with the matter of adoption, during 1958 the Board made 592 adoption orders, 273 in respect of boys and 319 in respect of girls. I cannot speak too highly of the voluntary, unpaid services of the members of this Board. I feel sure the House would wish to share with me in this commendation.

The number of aliens registered with the police as permanent residents is 3,028, an increase of about 200 over the previous year. Deputies are aware, of course, that British subjects, generally, are exempt from registration and there are no immigration barriers between this country and Britain and Northern Ireland. At our ports some 35,000 foreign visitors landed for holiday or business purposes and close on 10,000 more came to us via British ports. As far as possible, consistent with the requirements of the aliens laws, the policy has been to facilitate the admission of foreigners and the immigration restrictions are gradually being reduced to a minimum.

The Film Censor's return of films dealt with during 1958 was circulated to the press last January. It shows that 1,085 films were certified as fit for exhibition in public, 239 films were passed with cuts and 55 films were rejected; of 32 appeals against the Censor's refusal to grant a certificate, the Appeal Board upheld his decision in 29 cases and varied his decision in two cases by allowing the film to be exhibited with cuts.

Then there is censorship of publications. During 1958 the Censorship of Publications Board examined 1,072 publications and made 624 prohibition orders; 127 of these Orders were in respect of periodical publications and 497 were in respect of books but 177 of the latter figure were in respect of books already prohibited that had been reissued under new titles or in different editions. The Censorship of Publications Appeal Board heard eight appeals. They granted one appeal in respect of a book and one in respect of a periodical publication.

As regards citizenship, Irish citizenship was conferred on 59 persons during 1958 by the grant of certificates of naturalisation. This brings the total number of persons naturalised under the 1935 and 1956 statutes to 1,754.

As Deputies are aware, I receive, in the course of every year, a great number of petitions for the remission or mitigation of the punishment imposed in particular cases by courts exercising criminal jurisdiction. All of these have got to be examined, reports obtained and the advice of the trial judge or justice sought; and this involves a great mass of work. In most cases the petitions have to be rejected in the end, but this is not done without the most careful consideration.

There is one class of petition that, in the absence of any evidence of a miscarriage of justice, I have normally no hesitation in rejecting and that is a petition for the removal of driving disqualification that has been imposed for drunken driving. There were 115 such petitions last year all of which were rejected. It may be that there is no connection between drunken driving and road accidents but, in any case, it is gratifying to be able to record that the number of deaths in road accidents in 1958 was lower than the number in 1957 which, in turn, was lower than that of the year before. Still, there were no fewer than 268 deaths on the roads last year, some of which, it is safe to say, might have been avoided by the exercise of reasonable care. I can only hope that one day the public conscience will be so shocked by this unnecessary loss of life that every one of us who has reached the age of reason will make it a point of honour so to use the roads as not to be a danger to himself or others.

I may add that during the year my Department was engaged on the examination and the formulation of proposals for legislation in relation to the licensing laws, rent control, adoption of children, penal reform, charities, administration of estates, solicitors and the Courts of Justice.

The foregoing remarks in relation to the Vote for my own Office concern its routine activities but before I pass on to the next Vote I have a word to say about the activities of unlawful organisations. In July, 1957, it became necessary to invoke the powers of Part II of the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act, 1940, and to intern a number of persons who were engaged in activities that were injurious to the security of the State. The detention of persons without trial is a step to be justified only by the existence of a grave emergency and for so long as the emergency exists.

As Deputies know, all of those who have been detained have now been released but it should not be supposed that this is because of any change in the Government's position with respect to the organisations in question. Rather is it the result of their considered view that, for the time being, the measures taken in 1957 and 1958 have served their purpose. Speaking for myself, I have no doubt at all that the temporary detention of those concerned has effectively prevented them from endangering the lives of others and risking their own in the pursuit of activities that are no less futile than unlawful. But I should like to repeat what the Taoiseach said a few weeks ago; that the Government will not hesitate to use all the means at their disposal to ensure that there is no usurpation of their authority and to prevent unlawful activities of a kind which, if they were allowed to go on unchecked, would be likely to lead to a situation here which must be avoided at all costs.

The Garda Síochána Vote, No. 27, is, from the financial point of view, the most important of those for which I am responsible and this year I have had to ask for £155,000 more than last year. As I have already explained, the bulk of this is due to the additional provision that has had to be made for Police Pensions but the fact that extra police have had to be provided for service on the Border has contributed to the increase in costs.

In my remarks on this Vote you will expect me to say something about the prevalence of crime in the country but before I refer to the figures for last year, I should like to explain that the Annual Crime Report of the Commissioner, Garda Síochána, will in future—beginning with the Report for 1958—show a number of changes in the presentation of crime statistics. These changes have been introduced, with my approval, as a result of a critical examination by the Commissioner of the various crime-tables heretofore compiled. This examination showed that in many cases there was excessive classification of crimes, which served no useful purpose, whereas in a few cases additional classifications could, with advantage, be introduced. The revised form of Annual Report is being compiled on the basis of a twelve-month period ending on 30th September instead of on the basis of a calendar year. The principal reason for this is to enable the Report to be prepared before the Estimate for the Garda Síochána is introduced each year. Heretofore, only provisional figures of crime for the preceding year were available to the House when discussing the Estimate, and indeed there used to be an unavoidable delay of up to a year in the preparation and publishing of the final Report.

With regard to the most recent crime figures, I would first of all repeat that they relate to the twelve-month period ending on 30th September, and the three months' overlap must be borne in mind in the comparison with the crime figures for the calendar year 1957.

The 1958 figures, I regret to say, show that the upward trend in indictable crime that has been manifest since 1955 has continued. Indictable crimes for the year numbered 16,567, which was an increase of 2,530 or 18 per cent. over 1957. Most of the increase was under the head of larceny, the figure for which increased from 9,842 to 11,766, an increase of 1,924 or 20 per cent. As in 1957, the most striking single figure in the analysis of this increase in larceny is the figure for larcenies of pedal cycles, which increased from 2,467 to 3,524— an increase of 1,057 or 43 per cent. This increase is all the more striking for the fact that the 1957 figure was itself over 800 higher than the figure for 1955 when the upward trend in crime began.

Unfortunately, it is almost inevitable that when larcenies increase, and particularly larcenies of pedal cycles, the general detection rate will drop, for of all the common crimes none is more difficult to detect than the larceny of a bicycle. It is, pre-eminently, a case where prevention is better than cure and where the preventive measures must necessarily depend on the owners rather than on the Garda Síochána. The Gardaí have been endeavouring, by various means, to ensure a greater awareness among the public of the need for preventive measures against larcenies generally. If, for instance, we could prevail on cyclists to lock their bicycles as a matter of course when leaving them unattended, the number of larcenies would drop substantially. To illustrate the casual attitude of a great many cyclists, I would mention that, in the Dublin Metropolitan Division alone, approximately 3,000 missing bicycles have been taken into Garda stations in each of the last few years, and that of these no fewer than one in three were not claimed by the owners. In their efforts to bring these points home to the public, the Gardaí have been greatly assisted by publicity given in newspapers to the need for such measures, and I am glad to take this opportunity to express my appreciation of this assistance.

Though the increase in larcenies accounts for over five-sixths of the total increase in crime, there have also been increases in other kinds of offences against property, which, though numerically much smaller, cannot be ignored. For instance burglaries and housebreakings and kindred offences increased by 19 per cent. from 2,895 to 3,459.

Deputies may well ask: why this increase in the various classes of crime? There is no single or easy answer. The increase seems to be part of a world-wide crime wave. Several causes, no doubt, contribute to the increase in crime and most of them are probably outside the scope of the preventive operations of the police. One thing that cannot be said is that the increase is due to the reduction in Garda strength which has been taking place in recent years. It is in Dublin that there has been the greatest increase and in Dublin the Garda strength has not been reduced at all; on the contrary, it has been increased. Nor have I heard that, taking one area with another, there has been any increase in crime in the localities where rural stations have been closed or reduced in strength as I certainly would have heard if this had happened.

There is, however, one aspect of crime which has caused the public some concern. I refer to the question of unsolved murders. In the past few years there have been three murders that have not so far been cleared up. That this is disturbing is not to be denied, and I can assure the House that it is not a matter that is being taken lightly by the Garda authorities who are not only making sure that all three cases are still and will continue to be the subject of close and active attention, but also subjecting to critical examination all aspects of the investigation machinery.

Having said that, I must also say, and emphasise, that there is no justification for suggestions that have been made that there is something radically wrong either with the Garda machine or with the policy of closing stations in certain areas that has been adopted in recent years, with the concurrence of my predecessor and myself. Apart from those three cases which occurred in 1957 and 1958, the Garda record in the solution of murder cases has been exceptional. In the ten years immediately preceding 1957, the record has been 100 per cent. Whatever may be the reason for the interruption of this impressive sequence of successes, I am satisfied to leave it to the Garda authorities knowing, as I do, that it is a matter which is engaging their constant attention, to determine whether and in what way the methods of detection can be improved.

I cannot dismiss the subject of crime without saying something about juvenile crime. I should explain that this year I am not in a position to make an exact comparison between last year's figures and those of earlier years because the figures are no longer compiled by reference to an upper age limit of 18 as in former years but by reference to the age of 17. For a number of years, there has been little or no change in the volume of juvenile crime from year to year but I am sorry to say that, last year, there was a very sharp increase in juvenile crime of all kinds but, particularly, in the number of larcenies. What the reason for this is I cannot say, but I have no doubt that it begins from lack of parental control; bad example and insufficient occupation are also no doubt contributory factors. We can at least hope that the deterioration that has been evident in the past year will prove to be a passing phase.

On the question of police establishments, the present strength of the Force, all ranks, is 6,479. During the year 1958/59 400 recruits were enrolled in the Garda Síochána but notwithstanding this, the overall strength is still 1,000 less than it was about ten years ago. The reduction in manpower and the closing of rural stations or their reduction in status have been counterbalanced by the greater use of motor cars and motor cycles and the use of radio equipment and it is intended to pursue this policy for some time to come. It is hoped, eventually, to reduce the Force to about five and a half thousand men. It is expected that vacancies will occur during the year from the usual causes—deaths, resignations and dismissals—to the number of 430 and it is proposed that recruits to the number of 450, including 18 women, be appointed. A competition for the appointment of women police has been held by the Civil Service Commissioners and it is expected that, having completed their period of training, our first women police will take up duty in Dublin and Cork towards the end of the year.

The increase in the Vote for Prisons, apart from remuneration, is due to the increased cost of feeding the prisoners and maintenance of prison buildings and to expenditure on the prison cottages at Portlaoise. It will be observed that provision is being made for a daily average of 385 prisoners or slightly fewer than last year. Since the Estimate was framed, the daily average of the prison population has gone up and averaged 423 in the first quarter of this year. This, perhaps, is hardly surprising in view of the crime situation and the remarkable thing is that, notwithstanding the upward trend in crime since 1955, the daily average population has been so low.

Some Deputies may ask what we have been doing in the field of penal reform. Our resources do not permit of experimentation to any large degree and the numbers of prisoners under sentence are too limited to permit of diverse classifications. Moreover, most prisoners are not long enough in custody for any training or rehabilitation measures to take effect. Last year only fifteen prisoners were committed to serve sentences of over two years; in each of the preceding two years the figure was only nine. Last year there were, on average, only eight young offenders serving sentences of Borstal detention. Sixty per cent of the prisoners committed receive sentences of less than three months, from which a remission of one-quarter is allowed in most cases. However, the House will shortly have an opportunity of discussing the question of penal reform on a Bill dealing with certain limited aspects of the problem which I expect to introduce shortly.

Votes 29, 30 and 31 are concerned with the services of the Courts. There has been little change in any of these Estimates. In the case of the District Court increased provision has had to be made for the salaries of the Justices who have been appointed on a temporary basis to obviate the necessity for making permanent appointments pending a reduction by five in the number of District Court Districts —and a consequential reduction in the number of Justices—which it is hoped to effect before the end of the year. In the case of the Circuit Court, there has been practically no change at all and the increased provision for the Supreme Court and High Court is mainly due to increased remuneration.

The increase in the Vote for the Land Registry is due, apart from remuneration, to the necessity for creating four additional posts in the mapping branch to tackle the problem of the maps that have become worn out as a result of constant handling and require to be renewed.

Vote 33, Public Record Office, calls for no comment and with regard to Vote 34, I need say no more about the Office of Charitable Donations and Bequests than that both the Minister for Justice and the public are under great obligations to the Commissioners for doing unpaid work of the greatest value to the community and that, speaking for myself, I am glad to take this opportunity to acknowledge that debt.

I do not think I do the Minister any injustice when I say with regard to the speech he has given to us this year that it is very much the same as last year's. Certainly, the outstanding matters are merely a repetition of what had to be expressed and what had to be exposed to the Dáil this time last year.

In the first place, remuneration is up. I mean, the cost of the Department, of the various groups for which the Minister is responsible, is up and this is mainly due to the fact that extra moneys had to be provided by way of salaries or by way of pensions to staff. This is, in other words, part of the repercussion of the Government's own proposals with regard to finance during the last couple of years. It is to be hoped that some day we will get away from this cycle: that there is an increase in salaries to bring certain people up to the levels that they once had and the levels they once had is getting back to 1929. After that, there are financial measures which raise the cost of living in the country; then there are agitation and efforts at conciliation and arbitration and, finally, again after months in which the salary has lagged behind the increase in the cost of living, a new Vote, with added remuneration and, therefore, a new Estimate, which indicates that these things have been brought about in a particular way and that humanity alone demands, apart from justice, that some addition should be made to the salaries of the various officials both in the Department, the Courts, the provincial offices and elsewhere.

The second thing that is up is crime. Indictable crime, according to the Minister, is up. For the year indictable crimes numbered 16,567—an increase of 2,500 odd over 1957 and an 18 per cent. increase over the previous year. This time last year when the Minister was speaking he told us he himself had been shocked to find the number of indictable offences was increased over the previous year by 12 per cent. So that, not merely is there an increase, but the rate of increase has accelerated during the year. There was a 12 per cent. increase on the previous year. Now we have got an 18 per cent. increase on the figure which had been increased by 12 per cent. in comparison with the year before. That is certainly not a situation that anybody can regard with complacency.

The greater number of these crimes concern larcenies, burglaries and housebreakings. The Minister says it is not easy to say what is the cause of this. While there has been an increase in crime all over the world, there has been a steady inclination to associate two things together—crime, unemployment and under-employment. It happens that there are people in some sort of employment who do not get anything like the remuneration they believe and it is not big enough to spread over the pleasures they seek.

With regard to juvenile crime, I do not know whether that has been linked with anything so often as it has been linked with unemployment. In this country last month before a particular society a lecturer said that juvenile crime was linked with unemployment: "Were it not for the thousands of youths who by reason of unemployment emigrated from Ireland each year the problem of delinquency would be much more serious."

The earlier part of the Minister's statement was taken up, first of all, with the increase in pensions and the necessity for making provision for an increase in police pensions. In addition to that as far as the Minister's own office is concerned the main amount asked for in the way of an addition is to meet the salaries of the staff. He says:—

"There is little or nothing else in the Vote. The estimated expenditure is much the same as last year, but I have had to ask for a little more because of the general increase in Civil Service remuneration."

Again, the Minister has to make the ordinary preface to this remark by referring to the necessity for increased remuneration. Of course, the Minister can think himself of what has brought about the necessity for those increases.

The Department's duties are set out by the Minister earlier in his speech. Administration and business generally of the public services fall to him in connection with law, justice, public order and police. In addition to that, he has to administer the various statutes which deal with nationality and citizenship, aliens, betting, censorship and so on. The Minister then details what the Department has done or propose to do under some of those heads.

One of the things to which I do not think he referred was the question of the licensing laws. There was a report by a commission many months ago. The Minister gave no hint at all as to when it is likely that any proposals founded on the commission's report may be brought before the House for deliberation. I should like the Minister, when he is replying, to give us some hint. The commission's report has been circulated to people interested for the purpose of getting their remarks on the amendments. I should be very glad to know how far these inquiries have gone on and whether the Department are in a position shortly to answer that legislation is under preparation to bring about amendments which are circulated. I do not say that all the amendments which the commission have proposed will be accepted by the House or by the Government but that there is room for amendment in the licensing laws and the administration of these laws is beyond doubt.

With regard to film censorship and the censorship of publications, the figures the Minister has given are of interest. I hope they will be observed by the public, particularly those with regard to appeals. There seems to me to be an amazing bit of confusion about the law relating to the censorship of publications. There is prevalent in some quarters the belief that a person's house might be searched in order to discover a banned book. That is not the case. What is prevented under the censorship of publications legislation is the sale or something that is a sale even though it might be pretended to be an exchange of books as between individuals. There is considerable apprehension among members of the public in regard to this matter that even the possession of a book which has come under the ban of the censorship is an offence.

The Minister said that one class of petition he has consistently rejected is the petition for the removal of a driving disqualification as imposed for drunken driving. I do not know whether the Minister wants us to take his words strictly, that he has rejected petitions for the removal of a driving disqualification. One sees from time to time in the papers mitigation of penalties in connection with drunken driving. The Minister mentions that he rejects all petitions for the removal of a driving disqualification. That is one thing. He will certainly have to reconcile what he says with what is made known to the public with regard to the removal of certain other penalties in respect of driving and driving under the influence of drink.

He goes on to say that there may be no connection between drunken driving and road accidents. I do not know why he hesitates to say in a firmer way that there is a definite connection between drunken driving and road accidents. That is beyond question. I do not say that all drunken drivers eventually meet with road accidents or cause road accidents but quite a number of accidents on the roads are due to people who drive when their senses are somewhat dulled by reason of the fact that they have taken intoxicating liquor.

The Minister speaks of the public conscience being so shocked with the unnecessary loss of life that everyone would make it a point of honour so to use the roads that there would be no danger either to themselves or the public. The report will be made vigorously that the Minister's conscience should be so shocked that with his colleague, the Minister for Local Government, he should see whether some change could be made in the law in regard to this matter of driving on the roads and the causes of accidents.

In that connection it would be an education for the public if the Minister gathered together and revealed certain statistical information collected a couple of years ago. On first view it is certainly astonishing when one reads about the number of cases where death has been caused by the driving of mechanically propelled vehicles. If one follows the cases that arise in regard to deaths caused on the roads, it is astonishing to see the results. First of all, there is a screening of these particular cases by the law officers to decide whether the case is bad enough to be manslaughter or whether it is a question of careless or dangerous driving. A follow up of that reveals some striking facts.

Even the limited number of cases sent forward under the heading of manslaughter have to be screened at a certain stage by the district courts. It is astonishing again to find how few are the cases—these would be the bad cases—in respect of which informations are received in the early stage. The situation gets worse if the cases get through the district courts and are sent forward for trial. Again, there is quite a number of cases in which the judge refuses to let the case go to the jury. Finally, there is the number of cases when a jury gets hold of a manslaughter case and a verdict of "not guilty" is brought in. In fact, it has been very definitely an exception to have a case of manslaughter brought home to an individual, even when death has occurred through the driving, or through something in the way of negligent driving of a motor car on the road.

There are, of course, a vast number of civil cases which arise from these accidents, in which damages are given against the party driving, and it is very seldom that the defendant gets off on the civil side. However, the number of cases in which the law eventually gets hold of the offender, where death has been caused on the road, is very few indeed. It is possibly due to the standards which have been laid down in certain decided cases, in connection with the type of negligence required for a manslaughter verdict, having been raised too high. In that way, it may not be easy to get judges to put cases before juries in such a way that the penalty the public think should follow would, in fact, follow. I would mention to the Minister that the statistics have been compiled only up to the period 1955-56, and that there is necessity for an improvement in that situation. It would be for the public benefit to see the way the courts treat these cases of murder, or at least, death, on the roads.

I would ask the Minister to use whatever pressure he has in getting the Department of Local Government to see that the legislation on transport is hastened up, so that we might have a chance to let the public realise that care and consideration have been given to this matter, that efforts have been made to put an end to the heavy toll of life on our roads from year to year. Legislation was in a practically completed form, with the exception of about three points left over for questioning, by the early part of 1957. Now, two years later, it does not appear as if any solution has been found to those few points which alone remained for official decision in connection with road transport.

The Minister tells us that his Department was engaged in proposals for legislation in relation to the licensing laws. We have not seen any result of that yet, nor have we seen anything in regard to rent control, the adoption of children, or penal reform. As I read this in the earlier stages of the Minister's brief, I was hoping to find him say that something was being done about penal reform; but skipping to the end of his speech, I think I can paraphrase it, without injustice to the Minister, by saying that nothing will be done about penal reform. He thinks that there are some minor points of legislation which are to be brought in, dealing with some small points; but, as for the rest of it, it seems that we have not the diversification, so to speak, of crimes which would warrant a proper analysis leading towards some scheme in the nature of a reform of the penal system.

In regard to charities, the Minister says he has been engaged in the promotion of legislation. This legislation was practically complete in 1956-57. One important point was left over then, which struck at the whole roots of the matter—that is, the definition of a charity. Surely, two years was long enough a period in which at least to have that canvassed to the point at which proposals could be brought before the Dáil for its consideration, even without the proposals being pressed through.

There was legislation in regard to the administration of estates, which was held up for quite a while by the Minister himself. It got a very easy passage through the House. It was quite a welcome piece of legislation, and it has improved the situation in regard to the administration of estates. I understand, however, that there is in the offing some other legislation, dealing with another aspect of that matter.

The Minister has turned off the proposals in connection with solicitors. When are we to see the proposals on that point? The Solicitors Act has been found lacking in constitutionality at a certain point, on the disciplining of solicitors. The decision which was given on that point may, of course, have results or reactions far beyond the ranks of the solicitors' body. The terminology used by the Courts, in describing the disciplinary section of the Solicitors Act as unconstitutional, went very far indeed. The matter has been brought inside the framework of the Constitution, inside one section which says that limited matters and functions of a judicial type may be handed over to people who are not judges under the Constitution and to be tried out in institutions which are not courts established under the Constitution. In giving the decision of the Court on the Solicitors Act—the decision unfortunately has not been reported yet except through the newspapers—the phrase which the newspapers took up, and which I have verified as being in the judgment, said that anything that touched on a man's life, liberty, property or reputation could not be regarded as a minor matter or dealing with a minor judicial function.

If that is the case, quite an amount of other legislation is likely to be required in an effort to re-establish some sort of disciplinary control over a variety of bodies. The solicitors themselves have been left without any chance of controlling the wayward members of their profession. The Minister said last year that he had met a deputation from the Incorporated Law Society to discuss the matter and he said that he gave that deputation an assurance. I quote from the Debates of the 16th April, 1958 Col. 233. He gave the assurance that, as far as he was concerned, he would make every possible effort to see that the situation which had arisen as a result of the judgment would be dealt with as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

The Order Paper has carried, for many months past, legislative proposals which were introduced and certain amendments which were found to be required. At one time, the Minister thought there was considerable urgency about this and wanted to have it law before the House rose for the summer recess last year. He was being aided in that matter and there was a definite view prevalent in the House that the sooner it was rectified the better. He cannot complain that there was obstruction or lengthy argument here. There were some amendments suggested and in the matter which has remained there is an amendment in the name of Deputy J. A. Costello, which is still to be considered. In some way, the proposals became bogged down. I ask the Minister to tell us what the obstruction is that he has found and when he thinks the obstruction will be overcome, so that legislation can be brought in and made efficient to deal with the situation which emerged.

The Minister also has to examine and formulate proposals for legislation in relation to the courts of justice. There has not been any legislation in that matter. Last year I raised a variety of matters and the Minister when replying referred to some of them. I am referring to the Minister's reply, as set out in col. 231 of the Official Debates for the 16th April, 1958. I had asked about the simplification of court procedure and there was the question of the imposition of fines on the spot. After that I asked about law reform and also dealt with the solicitors' matter. I asked whether any report had been received from the Rule Making Committee and, if so, whether any suggestions had been made for the better administration of justice, such as the Court Rule Making Committees are supposed to recommend from time to time. I then put forward the suggestion of having recording machines provided in the courts instead of the old system of evidence being taken down in long hand. At col. 234 the Minister said he would investigate all these suggestions.

I asked later that the court offices be kept open for business during the long vacation by staggering the holidays of the officials. Again promises were made that the matter was being examined. The Minister's speech today does not contain one word about those various proposals. Perhaps he would be good enough to say whether they have been examined and, where they have been examined, whether they are thought of favourably or with sympathy.

The Minister passed over, in a way which does not accord with the importance of the matter, the question of the release of all the people who were interned under the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act, 1940. He does say it had become necessary to intern a number of persons who were engaged in a number of activities that were injurious to the security of the State. One does expect a quotation from an Act from a Minister but, in fact, the Minister should phrase this more correctly by stating: "A number of persons were interned who, in the Minister's opinion, were engaged in activities which, in his opinion, were injurious to the security of the State." I am right, I think, in quoting that. That is the wording of the operative section of the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act, 1940. This was entirely a matter of the opinion of the Minister to operate. It may not have been the Minister for Justice but I presume it was in this case.

The detention of a person without trial is a step which can be justified by grave emergency and only as long as the emergency exists. There are other ways of dealing with grave emergencies under The Offences Against the State Act. There is the question, first of all, of dealing with the ordinary courts which had not broken down before the Minister took over control. If the ordinary courts had broken down there are special courts that could be appointed. Special personnel could be appointed to the special courts under the Offences Against the State Act and, in that connection, I want to say that most people are revolted by this method of detention without trial on the warrant of a Minister who simply has to say: "In my opinion certain people are engaged in certain activities which, in my opinion, are injurious to the security of the State".

Where the administration of justice has broken down, that situation could be met by another proclamation under the Offences Against the State Act, 1939, and there, at least, is the safety of a court of trial even though it may be a trial not necessarily before properly qualified legal persons. There is always attached to that a right of appeal to the ordinary courts, even though by the procedure of the Special Court the right of trial by jury is taken away from the people. What was the grave emergency which the Minister, by innuendo, suggests was present in this country which justified the detention of people without trial, in some cases detention of people without trial very nearly for a couple of years? In that connection, no doubt the Minister has seen an article in last Sunday's Observer, a paper which circulates fairly widely in this country. In that issue an article appears dealing with the Rhodesian detention legislation, legislation which is very much of the type of the Offences Against the State Act.

That legislation was proposed to be introduced in Southern Rhodesia and it was withdrawn on account of the public disquiet caused by the proposals, public disquiet that was not confined to the white settlers in that country. However, the Act was withdrawn but the article in the Observer referred to the parallels which the Rhodesian Minister for Justice quoted for his Acts. He said that this type of thing occurs elsewhere and we were paid the rather invidious compliment of being singled out as a country where this type of legislation was found to be necessary. Let us think of the group we are bracketed with “Southern Ireland, Ghana, Singapore, and Kenya.” With regard to allegations of murder and revolt, the Southern Rhodesian Minister has not even suggested that the Congress— that is the African Congress in Southern Rhodesia—was planning revolt.

I have heard the Minister himself, in answer to Deputy McQuillan, objecting to the people he detained being called felons. Deputy McQuillan was pressing him to declare that these people were felons and he refused to answer that. I hope the Minister will now take some steps to have the writer of this article informed that there were no allegations of murder or revolt, certainly in the context that the South African Congress had planned assassination or revolt of any kind. Now that the Curragh Camp has been cleared it would be a proper time for the Minister to be more informative on this whole matter regarding what were the things which had emerged, the things which caused and mounted up to a grave emergency, such a grave emergency as could not be met under the provisions in the Offences Against the State Act which allowed for the setting up of special courts. The Minister, I think, would find his hands stronger in his attitude towards these people if he did that.

Over the months considerable sympathy has been engendered for these people because of the fact that nothing was alleged against them. People were taken off to the Curragh Camp and there seemed to be very little discrimination. Mistakes were made and one person had to be released because of a mistake in identity. With that happening, a certain amount of sympathy was being engendered, even among people who did not approve of the detainees' actions, and that could have been prevented had the Minister made a statement on what was underneath the surface. Some general picture ought to have been presented to the public with regard to these people, above what has been given so far.

When the Minister was questioned, from time to time, about various people who were detained the stereotyped answer given by him was that if these people liked to sign a guarantee that they would behave in a constitutional way then they would achieve their release at any moment. That stereotyped stock answer continued to be given even when people were released without signing any pledge or guarantee. In that connection I think it is true that the bulk of the releases that have occurred during the last six weeks were of people who, throughout, have maintained they were acting constitutionally and, therefore, would not sign a condition which was read to them. I gather that quite a number of the people released had not imposed on them the necessity of signing the guarantee which the Minister had formerly insisted upon.

The results of this thing must be faced sooner or later. There is the question of people who do sign guarantees with regard to their future behaviour and, having signed guarantees, say they treat their signature on a particular document as signing an empty formula. Certainly, there was one outstanding example of a young man whose release, after signing a document, was made the subject of comment in this House. He was able to say, and he publicised his view very effectively in the newspapers, that he went back over the years and, if certain people could adopt an empty formula, he did not see any reason why he should not adopt the same formula and sign a document presented to him with a certain type of mental reservation.

Whatever he signed, he signed it as being an empty formula. That young man was at liberty for many months before the general release took place although he told the Government he was in fact repudiating the document put before him for signature. The community will be grateful that these releases have taken place, and more particularly will they be relieved if they can get an assurance, more than by a mere statement from the Minister, that there had been a grave emergency which could only be met in this way and that that grave emergency now no longer exists.

The Minister compliments himself that it is the considered view of the Government that "for the time being, the measures taken in 1957 and 1958 have served their purpose." The Minister gives us his personal assurance that "the temporary detention of those concerned has effectively prevented them from endangering the lives of others and risking their own in the pursuit of activities that are no less futile than unlawful." He then reiterates a warning given by the Taoiseach that "the Government will not hesitate to use all the means at their disposal to ensure that there is no usurpation of their authority and to prevent unlawful activities of a kind which, if they were allowed to go on unchecked, would be likely to lead to a situation here which must be avoided at all costs." He states that if these unlawful activities are restarted these measures will be taken once more and detention will again be imposed. I think it is in the public interest that the public should be better advised how serious the situation was and of what has brought about the alleviation which has enabled the releases to be made.

Although possibly it is not the Minister's immediate task, he might have referred to the publicising in the papers that there had been a protest made to the Government with regard to the release of these people. The Taoiseach said, with regard to that, that he thought the intervention of the English Prime Minister was ill-advised or he used some other adjective. That was all right. But I think the public again might be told now that the matter is no longer a critical one—I do not want the exact details—what was the gist of the objection that had been raised and the intervention made and how it was replied to.

It certainly is an astonishing thing that the Prime Minister of another country should in such an open way —I think it was at a public dinner— indicate that he had caused a protest to be lodged by the British Ambassador here. One would have expected something more in the way of a sharp retort or answer to what is now recognised as a blunder committed by the British Prime Minister. The public ought to be advised of the reception that was given to this protest from the British Ambassador, what the gist of the protest was, how there was any justification for what is clearly an unwarrantable interference with our own affairs and how vigorously the Government retorted to that protest.

That would be more a matter for the Dept. of External Affairs.

I am not at all sure. I think it would be a matter for the Minister for Justice as the person as the result of whose opinion these people were detained and presumably as a result of whose opinion these people are now released. I should have imagined that although the medium of communication might have been External Affairs, the person whose administration was being censured was the Minister for Justice. I have made the point I want to make on it. I did not intend to speak in any disorderly way, Sir, but I merely make the suggestion that I am quite in order in addressing these remarks to the Minister for Justice. If he likes to say his colleague will deal with it, we shall await that occasion. I do not think it would be out of order for the Minister to give us his own view with regard to that intervention since he is the person responsible for the operation of the Offences Against the State Act, 1940.

I referred to the matter of crime earlier. It is disheartening, and it is not good enough to say there is a world-wide crime wave. In a small country like this with quite a numerous and, to my mind, quite an efficient police group, it is a dreadful thing to find that last year we had an increase of 12 per cent. on the figures of indictable crime for the previous year, to find that this year the position is worse and that they have gone up again by 18 per cent. even on the greater number of last year. I suggest that it will be regarded as a smug type of complacency merely to say there is no simple or easy answer and that it seems to be part of a worldwide crime wave. There are circumstances with regard to unemployment and underemployment, bad conditions at home and all these things which certainly play their part in the increase in these indictable crimes.

The question of unsolvable murders got a great deal of publicity and there is a good deal of public disquiet over this. I am very glad to get the information—I had not known that the record was so good as the Minister says—that in the ten years preceding 1957 the record was 100 per cent. I take it that means that of every murder committed there was a discovery which led to somebody being brought to justice for the murder. Maybe the Minister's figure of 100 per cent. means that in every case in which somebody was brought before the Courts for a crime there was a verdict against the individual? Is that the case? Apart altogether from people being made amenable to the Courts of Justice for the crime of murder, were there any cases of murder where nobody was made amenable and where, through lapse of time, it was not possible to have the matter discussed?

If there is a 100 per cent. record for the ten years preceding 1957, people will be all the more anxious to know what has happened in the last couple of years. Personally, I agree with the Minister that there is no failure on the part of those looking after crime, on the side of the Guards. But the three murders that have not been cleared up are undoubtedly disturbing and it is not a complete answer and will not be a justification to the public to say: "There is no justification for suggestions that have been made that there is something radically wrong...with the Garda machine."

I agree it has nothing to do with the closing of a number of police stations in certain areas; but the other point is the one about which there is a note of interrogation in the people's minds. I think very much the same personnel are investigating these matters who had the 100 per cent. record prior to 1957. Unless they are failing in the type of their investigating skill or lacking in their zeal—and I do not believe that to be the case—there is at least this to be answered. I do not know whether the Minister will say there is less public support for the authorities in connection with such matters as murder and very serious crime. That has been hinted at in the newspaper accounts.

I would ask the Minister to attend to one thing. It is a minor matter. I do not think it does the Guards any good to have a certain amount of talk about active inquiries being conducted over an extensive area with regard to certain crimes. There is then a rumour. People are brought to the point of expectation and nothing happens. There is another sensational bit of news about the crime squad having moved into a certain area, and again people expect something and that, at last, an arrest will be made. That has been hinted at. While I do not think we have advanced to the point of stating "An arrest is shortly expected" there are hints to the effect. Notwithstanding all that, we have these three dreadful cases lacking solution.

Juvenile crime is put down by the Minister to lack of parental control; bad example and insufficient occupation are contributory factors. These three are undoubtedly factors, but I would put them in a different order; insufficient occupation would go at the top. Lack of parental control must also be associated with conditions generally. One cannot have the same control by parents where not merely the man but the woman of the house as well has to go out, even if it is only for part-time occupation. The ordinary household is broken up by these conditions and there cannot be the same control exercised by parents as there was in happier days when economic necessity did not compel both parents to seek employment and the children were therefore under parental observation.

The Minister will have to answer his own question better than he did in his speech as to why there is this increase in various classes of crime. He referred to bicycles and he told us that no fewer than one in three were not claimed by the owners. Last year, when he was talking about bicycle thefts he said that these bicycles were not the vehicles by which the capitalists of the country travelled, they were mainly used by working men getting to and from their work:—

"These are being stolen, not from capitalists, but from unfortunate men who use them as a means of transporting themselves to their places of employment."

If that is so, it is astonishing to find that one in three working men using bicycles to get from one place to another are so casual that they do not turn up to claim their property. I think the Minister will have to propound something better than that by way of reconciliation in explanation of what he says here with regard to the casual way in which owners treat the theft of bicycles.

Last year the Minister urged business people to provide themselves with watchmen in order to protect their premises from being broken into. He said:—

"... large business concerns should provide themselves with watchmen during the hours of darkness as a further means of providing protection for the valuable property that is often contained in their premises, property sometimes worth tens of thousands of pounds, and yet it is not regarded as a good economy to provide a watchman who would be always on the premises during those hours of darkness and who would be in a position to raise the alarm in the event of any attempt being made to burgle the premises."

Did the Minister do anything beyond making that suggestion in his speech last year? Were the owners of business premises asked if they were prepared to incur the expense of watchmen and, if so, what was the response? Apparently it did not stop the housebreaking. To put it generally, it did not stop offences against property; and these are the main ones that have increased during the year under review.

Last year, when dealing with indictable offences, the Minister gave us the figures for the Dublin Metropolitan District. This year he gives us the figures for the whole country. According to the Minister last year, the number of indictable crimes in the Dublin district in 1955 were 6,333; in 1956 these crimes rose to 7,120, in 1957, in the same area, they had gone up to 8,750. This year the Minister swings over and takes the figures for the whole country. The figures he gave last year for the whole country—I have not got the 1955 figures—were 12,782 indictable offences in 1956. These rose in 1957 to 14,322; this year the figure stands at 16,567. That is the 18 per cent. increase. The Minister might fill in the gap so that Deputies can get the picture for Dublin. He might give us the figures of indictable crimes in the Dublin Metropolitan District in the year 1958 so that we can make a comparison between the two speeches both in relation to the whole country and in relation to the Dublin Metropolitan District.

Surely the Minister will agree that larceny, which is the main criminal offence, is due to the lack of money from which certain people are suffering. Surely there is an almost automatic connection as between the lack of money in people's pockets, either because they are out of work or drawing unemployment assistance, and the fact that there is a good deal of thieving of property. I suggest it is not easy to ignore that connection. It occurs immediately to anyone who considers these figures and considers the condition of the country, a condition which has been described by people in different parts from the point of view of chronic unemployment, bad employment, emigration and everything else.

With regard to prisons, again the increase here is due to certain causes. Here, again, there is an increase in remuneration caused by the fact that the cost of living has been put up by Government activity and the resulting increases therefrom have to be met. Apart from that, we have increases in the cost of feeding the prisoners. Does that mean that the increase is due to the increased cost of the same food or are the prisoners being better fed? Are they being fed in a more expensive way? I take it the simple explanation is that the same result has been experienced in prisons in relation to the increase in food prices generally throughout the country. On the other hand, if the explanation is that we are giving more food, or better food, to prisoners, I would like the Minister to explain why.

The Minister cannot object to my saying now that he holds out no promise whatever of any improvement in the field of penal reform. There is one brief paragraph in which the Minister says:—

"Our resources do not permit of experimentation to any large degree. ... Moreover most prisoners are not long enough in custody for any training or rehabilitation measures to take effect."

He then gives some statistics and he concludes by saying:—

"...the House will shortly have an opportunity of discussing the question of penal reform on a Bill dealing with certain limited aspects of the problem which I expect to introduce shortly."

That means that nothing is being done or will be done in respect of penal reform because of the fact that (a) we have too few prisoners and (b) they are there for too short a period.

Of course, penal reform has been continuous during the years. This is a further little step forward.

I should like to hear how far penal reform has gone over the past two years.

If the Deputy went into Mountjoy now he would be supplied with a spring bed. Indeed, he would nearly need a recommendation now to get in there.

We are to mark that down as a big advance—spring beds for prisoners in Mountjoy! Is that the extent of the penal reform?

It is prison reform.

Is that the extent of it? I thought penal reform related to rehabilitation and training. I thought that was what was intended in penal reform. Keeping cells in a cleaner condition or providing better beds is not exactly what the public understand by penal reform. What is generally understood by the term is reform of the penal system leading to reform of those who undergo imprisonment with the object of making them good citizens or better citizens when they emerge. Certainly, that is what I understand by penal reform. I gather nothing has been done in that respect.

In regard to the Courts of Justice, we have been told there has practically been no change at all and the increased provision is due to increased remuneration. That, of course, means increased remuneration of the staff. There have been no judicial increases.

The record presented by the Minister is nothing upon which to congratulate ourselves. It may be that the situation is beyond the Minister's control and that we will just have to wait until this crime wave subsides, if it ever will subside. The Minister certainly does not hold out any great hope of improvement. He simply laments the fact that there was an increase and leaves it at that. I think there will be general public dissatisfaction with that. The Department has not yet been able to suggest something in the way of a remedy, apart altogether from the permanent reform in respect of the conditions in the country. They have not the realism to associate the bad conditions in this country with the present conditions operating in respect of crime.

I merely wish to make some brief comments on some aspects of the Minister's statement and not a general speech on the Department of Justice as it affects the country as a whole. The Minister has given some figures with regard to legal adoption which are satisfactory. I think people generally have no grave complaints about the operation of the Adoption Board but some cases of individuals who had particular difficulties with regard to adoption have arisen and my humble opinion is that the officers of the Adoption Board could be a little more helpful in trying to ensure that these children are adopted. There have been some snags, possibly legal ones, but I think many of these could have been overcome if the officers made different suggestions to the parents of the child to be adopted. I had occasion to ask the Adoption Board to investigate some cases in Wexford recently and I have not heard of them for a long time. That may be a particular complaint and it is not a complaint against any of the individuals on the Adoption Board.

The Minister referred to film censorship and while the reference is far removed from his paragraph on juvenile crime, it would have been very appropriate if the Minister had talked about juvenile crime in the same breath. Film censorship here, so far as I can gather—and I am a film fan—has worked very satisfactorily. I cannot understand why there is not special censorship for children's films. They have it in Britain, so far as I am aware, and I can imagine no reason why we cannot have it here. There is no doubt that some of the films which children see here have a grave influence on their lives and certainly an influence on juvenile delinquency. Crime is glamorised, especially in certain types of films. I do not know if the Ceann Comhairle or the Minister has seen "The Dead End Kids", a very popular gang of juveniles who, in about 80 per cent. or 90 per cent of the film, are delinquents. They steal fruit and annoy people and indulge in all sorts of petty crimes. They would not be averse from taking a motor car, if it suited the plot. It is crime for 80 or 90 per cent. of the film; then there is reform for about 10 minutes, and pardon and everything ends happily.

I do not want to appear to be a killjoy and there are many films appropriate to children and to certain teenagers, but any member of the House who goes to see certain films would shudder to think that these films will be shown the next day at matinées to children aged from four to 16. The sooner we have an attempt to control that type of film for children, the better I think it will be for the children here who have become delinquent in the past few years. The Minister has freely admitted that juvenile delinquency, especially in the past few years, has been on the increase—I think he said over two years. The public generally are protected by the film censorship that we have but there should be some further protection for children by ensuring that certain types of films will not be shown to them, especially at matinées. If the parents want to bring them to night shows, that is the parents' responsibility, but many parents at present in an effort to amuse or to some extent educate their children, allow them to attend matinées and some of the films they see are unsuitable.

Would the Deputy suggest a system similar to that which they have in England, the certificate?

Yes. I am not making any specific suggestion but I think we should have a form of censorship of films for children.

The Minister referred to traffic, mainly I think in connection with accidents. All of us are glad that the number of deaths on the roads in 1958 was lower than in 1957 when it was lower than in 1956. I know the Minister, in mentioning these figures is not complacent, nor does he show any hint of complacency, but we are all with him when he expresses the hope and the wish that these accidents should be avoided through motorists and the public generally taking more care on the roads.

Another aspect of transport for which the Minister has responsibility is traffic. One of the big things that distresses me is our lack of traffic regulations. Dublin City is pretty well regulated generally, but it could not be said to be one of the best regulated cities in the world, so far as traffic is concerned. In many provincial towns on market days or on usually busy days, there is, infact, chaos.

I am sure the Minister will say that he has some responsibility but not overall responsibility for that. I know the local authorities have an interest also and have a grave responsibility, but unfortuntely I find many local authorities have—I shall not say a vested interest—a special interest in traffic. As I said many years ago in this House, I think the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána should intervene. I do not want to mention any particular provincial town but I think many Deputies from outside Dublin will recognise the type of town I mean all over the country. If the local authority are not strong enough to do it, I believe the Minister for Justice, through the Garda Commissioner, could do it and should do it, because not alone does it upset the residents of the town, but it does not impress the tourist when he comes and sees the traffic chaos which we have, not only in Dublin but in many of our provincial towns.

I should like also to complain briefly to the Minister with regard to the accommodation that many of the Garda have in the Garda barracks. I had occasion to visit some of those barracks and I was appalled at the small space in which five, six or eight Gardaí were confined. It was positively unhealthy. At a time when many new barracks are being constructed, the Minister or the Garda Commissioner should try to ensure that there will be sufficient sleeping accommodation and, generally, sufficient facilities for those members of the Force who are required to stay in the barracks.

I was rather surprised to note the Minister's boast, so to speak, that the ranks of the Garda Síochána were being diminished. The Minister said the present strength is 6,479, but he went on to say that within ten years the overall strength would be reduced by 1,000. He went on further to say it was hoped eventually to reduce the Force to about 5,500 men. I do not think that is a good policy, especially in view of the fact that the Minister has freely admitted crime has increased in recent years. We have been unfortunate in that, in the past 18 months, three, four or five murders have occurred. The fact that we have had these murders is not, I know, directly attributable to the fact that our police force has been reduced but, surely, if crime, especially in respect to larceny, is on the increase, there must be a greater need for more Gardaí.

My town has a population of about 12,000. I may be wrong, but so far as I am aware Wexford town is policed during the night time by two members of the Force. If those two members of the Force were to walk the principal streets in Wexford, it would take them, I am sure, about four or five hours to do so just once, and Wexford is a fairly compact town.

And to have a smoke.

And to have a smoke. I would say from the south end of the town to the north would be a distance of 1½ to two miles. Is it any wonder that we have petty larceny and lockup shops and private homes being broken into, when we realise that there are only two members of the Garda charged with policing the whole town? The lad who wants to break into a shop knows exactly when the Gardaí are at the far end of the town. If the police are at the western side of the town, it means he has 1½ or 2 hours to do the job, to break into a shop or a private residence.

I do not think it is desirable or feasible to have every street in a town like that policed, or to have three or four streets policed by one or two Gardaí, but I do suggest that a town of that dimension, or a town with 3,000 or 4,000 of a population or even 2,000, should be policed by a squad car, because a squad car going round the town will be known to all the people. First of all it gives a sense of security and, secondly, if there is trouble at one end of the town, the squad car can get there in reasonably quick time. One cannot expect two members of the Garda Síochána to be responsible for a town of 12,000 people and to be responsible for the policing of miles and miles of the streets in that town.

I qualify that by saying that so far as my information goes, two members of the police force are required to police the town which I have mentioned. I may be wrong; it may be four or six members of the Force, but my information is that it is only two. These are the only comments I want to make on the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Justice, except to impress on him the necessity for at least an investigation into a system of censorship of films for children under the ages of 14 and 15 years.

I was glad that Deputy Corish referred to the question of legal adoption. The machinery set up under the Act has worked amazingly smoothly and has given tremendous security to children who otherwise would have had none, as well as giving great happiness to people who would otherwise have been childless. There is an omission which, I gather, has already been noted by the Minister, in that one or two religious denominations which are not referred to in the Act are not at present permitted to avail of the provisions in the Act. I understand that legislation will be introduced some time to remedy this omission. It has been brought to my notice that people who very sincerely wish to adopt children in some cases have actually taken a child into their homes but cannot legally adopt the child. I urge the Minister to introduce this legislation, which I gather is more or less on the stocks, as soon as possible. There is a grave matter of personal happiness at stake for a number of people and I hope there will be no further delay.

I should like to agree with some at least of what Deputy McGilligan said on the question of penal reform. I hope this will be treated as a matter of urgency and dealt with on a very broad scale. It is not, to my mind, so much a matter of making conditions more comfortable in prisons as trying to ensure first of all that people are not committed to prison, if that can possibly be avoided and that those who have to be put out of circulation for a period are at least not upset to such extent that they become abnormal and anti-social creatures. Certain moves have been made in Northern Ireland which deserve our attention such as the release of prisoners on parole at particular times such as Christmas time. I advocate such a practice, not just to be nice to the prisoners or to make things easy for them, but because it is important to try to ensure that the prisoner will remain a normal member of the community and any long period of imprisonment is bound to upset a man's balance. This practice of allowing prisoners to go home at certain times is a very valuable one and the experience in Northern Ireland has been extremely satisfactory and prisoners released on parole have reported back dead on time.

In general, I think, there is a certain amount of public uneasiness that certain crimes which appear very serious have been dealt with leniently by the Courts. I believe not only district justices but senior members of the Judiciary are very reluctant to commit men to prison, if they can possibly avoid it. That is a very valid and at the same time a very serious criticism of our prison system. I feel that it is not only a matter of restraining a man's liberty or taking it away, but that every effort should be made to try to find out how to restore that member of the community to his proper place in the community as a productive member of society.

At the moment we are getting very bad value for our money. It is set out in the Estimate that provision is made for a total of 385 prisoners. It requires the services of 239 of a staff to look after those prisoners. Even though that figure includes the chaplaincy service and the medical officers it appears excessive when you look at the total amount of money required. A sum of £111,000 will be required to pay the staff to look after 385 prisoners. That does not appear to be an economic use of the money.

The whole basis in relation to the maintenance of such establishments as Mountjoy and Portlaoise requires revision. I do not know Limerick and Sligo so well but that fortress at Portlaoise is an abomination to me every time I pass it. To be incarcerated there is enough to turn a man permanently against the community. We should try to be a little more adventurous in our dealings with convicted men by placing them, as far as possible, in more normal conditions. They are not beasts who have to be restrained and if you continually lock them up with such tremendous ostentation it can produce only a feeling in the convicted man's mind that he is a terror to the community.

What about their victims outside?

It is a question as to whether the net result would be good or bad and the view of the Judiciary is that incarcerating people in these, what are to me, horrible fortresses is not the way to reform them. We should not regard this purely as a matter of revenging ourselves or allowing the victim to be revenged by the community. It is a matter of trying to restore a criminal type to a proper place in the community. I do not mean just giving them spring beds, and so on, but that a genuine effort should be made to treat the men in such a way that when their term of imprisonment is over they will be able to re-enter the community and make a constructive contribution.

On the question of the courts themselves, I have frequently been appalled at the conditions in relation to maintenance, lighting and heating. District justices and their staff and those who come before them are exposed to extremely bad conditions.

That is a matter for another Minister.

Then we shall leave it. A reduction in Garda strength is almost inevitable by reason of the increased use of radio and mechanical transport. I have had experience myself of dialling 999 on a couple of occasions and the response was unbelievably quick. I cannot help believing that the use of these radios and cars is a much better way of dealing with the prevention of crime than additional men patrolling the streets.

As the Minister is aware, there is a tremendous amount of discontent in the force on the question of Garda promotion. I know there are always in any force a number of men who feel they should be promoted before the men who actually are promoted. However, from a number of complaints I have received and from the number which have emerged through the Garda Representative Body, there may well be some grounds for dissatisfaction with the present promotion system. I would urge the Minister to investigate them to the full and ensure that members of the Garda who have passed the necessary qualification examination for promotion are at least given a reasonable chance of attaining to a higher rank. I do not want to be taken as arguing any particular case but a general and dispassionate enquiry would be helpful and would at least restore some of the confidence amongst the Garda which has been lost in recent times.

I should like to compliment the Minister on the manner in which he has introduced his Estimate. It is regrettable to note the increase in crime and at the same time to note the decrease in the strength of the Garda. It is only to be expected that you will have an increase in crime if you decrease that strength. It has been said that we will have still further decreases amounting to about 1,000 in the present strength. It is stated that due to motorisation, we have increased efficiency. If we look at the increased duties which the Garda have been asked to perform in recent years we could describe them as semi-civil servants. As a result of that, there is a certain amount of neglect of police duties which they were originally intended to perform. With the increase in the number of motor cars and motor cycles on the road and the increasing number of thefts of cars and motor cycles, it was only to be expected that Garda duties would have increased also. We have a number of estates built up on the perimeter of our cities which further increase the difficulties of the police. In my own city a police patrol is as scarce as a snowball in Hell. You may see a police car outside the town but the criminal is used to that now and is prepared for it.

I agree with other Deputies that the stealing of bicycles is a very mean type of crime. It hits the small man who, as the result of the loss of his bicycle, may also lose his job. Another matter that is causing comment is the number of drugs lost or stolen from doctors' cars. One is inclined to say that drug addicts may be around when such things happen.

I should like to bring to the Minister's attention the activities of a certain group—I shall not call them a religious group because they are not recognised by our Constitution and I think I am entitled to name them. They are known as Jehovah's Witnesses. Their insulting behaviour on the doorstep of many houses leads to their being assaulted, and they are a group to which the police should pay attention. I hold they are an unlawful organisation because they are not covered by our Constitution.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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