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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 29 May 1959

Vol. 175 No. 6

Presidential Elections (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1959—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

On Wednesday morning the Tánaiste promised that the Government would consider what could be done to get over the difficulty arising from the fact that an election address which one of the candidates at the Presidential election proposed to send out to electors was found not to be eligible for transmission free of postage under Section 34 of the Presidential Elections Act, 1937. The Tánaiste also indicated that the Government had been advised that a special Act of the Oireachtas would be required and that the Government was prepared to consider that situation. This Bill is the outcome of the consideration given by the Government. The Bill is self-explanatory save possibly in regard to subsections (2) and (3) of Section 2.

Subsection (2) is necessary in order to avoid the making of new statutory regulations by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. Under the present regulations the candidate of his agent must certify that each communication contains matter relating to the Presidential election only. Subsection (3) will cover any such certificates already given by the candidate or his agent.

This Bill as it stands at the moment is wholly unacceptable to us. It contains matter which we could not under any circumstances accept or in any way give adherence or be a party to, particularly in reference to the Preamble, and that comment which I have just made applies also to the statement that was made by the Minister in moving the Second Reading when he said that the Bill was necessary because one of the candidates had sent out a circular which was found not to be in accordance with the law.

This issue as it arises at the moment goes far beyond the mere question of a particular election address at this Presidential election or the very controversial matter as to whether or not that particular election address which was prepared on behalf of General Seán MacEoin did or did not comply with the law.

The Preamble to this Bill states:—

Whereas, in the case of one of the candidates at the 1959 Presidential Election, a communication has been prepared for sending under the principal section and, because the communication relates to that election and to the 1959 referendum, it fails to comply with the requirement of that section that it should relate only to that election.

That recital in the Preamble to this Bill would constitute, if this Bill were passed with that recital in it, a statutory admission on our behalf that the election address prepared by General Seán MacEoin at the Presidential election did, in fact, contravene the law. We could not be a party in any way to such an admission. It would have even a still further very wide scope, indeed, when the effect of this Bill, if it is passed into law, would be considered in relation to the rights of candidates at a general election in future.

This Bill, on its face, appears to be an ad hoc measure designed to get over a certain difficulty in relation to a particular document at this Presidential election. If it became law, it would in future be a statute of this Parliament which would be referred to hereafter for the purpose of controlling and certainly aiding the interpretation of a somewhat corresponding section in the Prevention of Electoral Abuses Act, 1923, Section 50, subsection (1) and, in my view, and I submit it to Deputies and the Country for their most urgent consideration in connection with this matter, the effect of this would be that every candidate at any future general election would have to submit his election address for censorship by the Government or by the Post Office Solicitor. That is a principle to which we could not subscribe. I may have to develop that a little further later on, although I propose to speak very briefly on this Bill. We are not dealing merely with a piece of ad hoc legislation but with a piece of legislation which may have and, in my view, will have, very far-reaching results.

This Bill, as I say, as at present drafted and at first recital and in accordance with what the Minister said in introducing the Second Reading, is an admission, not merely an implied admission, but an actual express admission, that General MacEoin's electoral address contravened the statute. I understand from the communication that was issued on behalf of the Government by the Government Information Bureau that they had legal advice in this matter and that the legal advice was the advice of the Post Office solicitor. I make no aspersions on the Post Office solicitor, his competence or capability. He is an eminent gentleman who is entitled to his own opinion. Equally, I am entitled to my own opinion, and I want to say here something which I have hesitated all the years I have been in the Dáil to express, namely, what my opinion is on this statute.

I have hesitated, as I have said, either to express my own personal view on a legal matter or to give a legal opinion particularly in matters affecting the Constitution, but because of the issue raised here and of the public interest in it and of the importance of this not merely from an ad hoc application in the present instance but its general, wider and vital application in the future, I want to say here that, in my opinion, there is no doubt whatever that General MacEoin's election address as drafted by him or on his behalf did not contravene the provisions of Section 34, sub-section 1, of the Presidential Elections Act, 1937.

While I say that, I do not want anybody to misunderstand my attitude in making that point. I do not say that I am infallible or that my opinion is necessarily right, however much I may be convinced it is right. I have sufficient experience to know that various views may be taken of the construction of the statute and the solicitor for the Post Office is entitled to his own view; equally, I am entitled to mine. I hold my view very firmly, and I shall give a few relevant considerations to the Dáil, not legal arguments because I do not intend to subject the Dáil to legal arguments in this matter. I shall give just a few considerations in a few moments so that Deputies and people with independent minds in the country, the public, may know at least that there is a very strong contrary view to the opinion of the Post Office solicitor on which the Government acted so hurriedly and, in my view, without full consideration.

In my opinion, this Bill is unnecessary. I should have thought that in a matter of this kind where very fundamental democratic rights are at issue, the rights of candidates not merely at a Presidential election which is of very far-reaching importance, but at general elections. The rights of candidates at a general election should not in any way be impaired by what I may describe, with great respect to whoever gave this legal ruling, as a very narrow view of the section.

Let us assume there is something to be said for this narrow view, but there is something to be said also for the wider view. Surely, when the Government were faced with this, they ought to have said: "That is too narrow a view to take having regard to its conclusions and consequences which would certainly be against the public interest and against the democratic rights of candidates at a general election and we ought not to accept that narrow view." I take the view that the provision, whether it is in Section 34, sub-section 1, of the Presidential Elections Act of 1937 or Section 50 of the Prevention of Electoral Abuses Act of 1923, should be given wide interpretation.

My view is that while the words of the Act of 1923 are that the communication which is entitled to free postal facilities should contain "matter relating to the election only", and in Section 34 of the 1937 Act the words are:—"one communication relating only to the said election", there are far more topics that come within the ambit of that provision than there are exclusions and that that is the interpretation with which those two sections ought to be approached.

I certainly think that this Bill and the provision that has given rise to it must be taken completely out of the ad hoc situation of this Bill and brought into perspective as a matter which will create a precedent and may have a very serious or disastrous effect in the future. I should have thought the Government would have taken a liberal and constructive attitude and nobody would have raised a point against them if they had done so. Everybody would have accepted it as proper if they had said:—“Perhaps the Post Office solicitor is right but it is too narrow a construction.” But if they felt constrained to accept that view, ought they not have said:—“This is a matter of vital importance and of far wider consequence than the mere question as to whether General MacEoin should have his election address posted free under the Act.”

That brings the situation to the point that when a general election comes, a narrow interpretation will be put upon the Act of 1923 and nobody can safely get ready for printing, and have printed, an election address at a general election until he first submits the draft to the Post Office solicitor, to the Government and have it censored and passed by the censor. That is a situation we could not stand for and will not stand for and that is the issue raised in this matter. What they ought to have done in this case was to take out the word "only" in both instances in this section and come in here with the Bill and say:—"This section has been narrowly interpreted. While that may be correct, it is a matter of such vital importance that it requires not a piece of ad hoc legislation but a piece of general legislation so that the difficulty”—to which I have very briefly adverted—“may not be met with in the future and that the democratic right of a candidate at a general election to say pretty well anything he likes in an address at a general election should not be subject to the censorship of the Government or any legal adviser acting on the part of the Government.”

That is the big issue that must be faced in this case and it is because of that and for the other reasons I have stated that we could not possibly give the slightest assent to this Bill so long as it contains this Preamble.

Now, as I said earlier, I shall give some considerations to justify the opinion I have given. I have frequently said in the House, and it is a commonplace observation which does not require any authority to commend its acceptance, that nobody's opinion on a legal matter, however eminent he may be, is of the slightest value unless the reasons he gives for it are sufficiently cogent to bring conviction. If they wish, Deputies can test what I have said by that test. As I said at the outset, I do not intend to subject the Dáil to legal arguments but, to the Deputies and to the people outside, I propose to submit a few considerations in order to demonstrate the validity of the opinion I have concerning this matter and, more important still, the extraordinary effects which this interpretation would have in the future.

Deputies are aware that there is a provision in the Constitution which guarantees people the right of free association. In one context, that is interpreted as meaning that people can form themselves into trade unions. Deputies are also aware of the fact that Article 43 of the Constitution guarantees the rights of private property. Taking matters now outside the sphere of what is proposed to be dealt with in this Bill, some Government in the future—a strong Government with a big majority—may be sufficiently ill-advised to bring in legislation to abolish the constitutional guarantee given to people to form trade unions. An equally strong Government of the future may decide:—"We are sick and tired of private property. We will ‘communise'"—I do not know if there is such a word, but I use it in preference to the word ‘socialise'—"Private property; we will do away with the right to private property." Let us assume that a Bill is passed to that effect and, in consequence, there is a general election. At the same time, there is a referendum on the Bill which proposes to change a fundamental principle enshrined in the Constitution.

A referendum is held on the abolition of the right to private property or the abolition of the right to form trade unions. Is it seriously suggested here and now that a statute capable of the interpretation which can be placed upon this proposed Bill is to be allowed to remain upon the Statute Book? This Bill, if it is passed, will result in an utterly untenable situation. Is Deputy Norton, or any other Labour representative of the future, to be denied the right to ask his supporters to vote against this outrageous proposition doing away with the right guaranteed in the Constitution to form trade unions?

Suppose the same situation arises in relation to the "communising" of private property. A general election and a referendum are held simultaneously on that issue. Is it to be the position that I who stand for the rights of private property—let us leave out the personal equation—is it to be the position that a candidate, who stands not merely for general constitutional principles but also for ethical and moral principles and who takes a strong view on the maintenance of the rights of private property, will not be entitled in his election address to say: "I am against the abolition of the rights of private property and, therefore, against the proposal contained in the referendum, which is to be held on the same day as the general election, and I ask the people who are in favour of my point of view to support me in the general election and to vote against the abolition of the right of private property in the referendum?"

Will the position be that the Post Office Solicitor, or any other solicitor, the Attorney General, or anyone else, even the Supreme Court, will say that the introduction of such advice as that to electors makes the matter contained in the election address contrary to statute? Will they lay it down that there must not be a single word in the election address relative to the outrageous proposal to do away with the right to form trade unions or the right to private property? These are but two instances. I could give many more. But these two instances are sufficient in my view—I submit it is the correct view—to establish the danger inherent in this proposed Bill.

If the narrow interpretation, as I call it, is correct, then this will continue in the future and this will obtain in the future. This is a Bill allegedly to deal with the position in relation to Deputy General Seán MacEoin's Presidential Address. But when a general election comes, whenever it comes and in whatever circumstances it may come, nobody will be able to draft an election address without first getting the "O.K." from the Government of the day, from some civil servant, or some other person acting on behalf of the Government of the day. If the decision is adverse and a candidate says: "There is another view" the reply will be: "Here is the law. This is an Act passed in particular circumstances showing what you may or may not do."

This Bill will be the statutory yardstick. It will be the guiding statutory device for interpreting in a narrow way the Act of 1923 in reference to general elections. This is a vicious—perhaps I ought not to use that word; I withdraw it—this is a grave consequences against which we must guard in the proposed passage of this Bill. I adduce this overwhelming argument through the Dáil to the country so that people may know that the error here is not the error of Deputy Seán MacEoin but the error of the Government.

Deputies

Oh!

I shall refer now to Deputy MacEoin's election address in order to establish that not merely is it within the spirit but it is within the actual letter of the relevant section. Here is a short extract from that address:—

It is one of the duties of the President to reconcile in his person divergences of political thought, to soften acrimonies of controversy and to unite the different streams of national life. That task becomes all the more possible of achievement when the Parliament is truly representative of the electorate. To ensure such representation I am of opinion that proportional representation should not be changed in the Constitution.

That passage is objected to by the Government.

Of course it is.

I note the Minister for Health says "Of course it is."

Is there any justification for that objection either in law or in common sense? On the same day two issues will be decided. The first is as to who will occupy the Office of Uachtarán na hÉireann for the next seven years. That is a comparatively unimportant issue compared with the issue in relation to the abolition of proportional representation. The suggestion here is that a candidate for the Office of President, the election to which is to be taken on the same day as the referendum relative to proportional representation, is not to say one word in his election address about the most controversial issue that has arisen here since the days of the Treaty in 1921. He is not to say one single word. The electors are not entitled to know, through his election address, what his attitude is on this proposed radical change, this highly controversial issue, this revolutionary proposal to change the method of election.

The only question is whether the Deputy gets free postage. That is the only question. He can say what he likes, and he has been saying what he likes.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce can speak later. Is it to be——

Are the taxpayers to pay for this postage? The only issue is free postage.

Let him put over his act peacefully. It is a very good act. It has an excellent purpose.

If the Minister for Agriculture were not here it would be a good thing. The Dáil would be better off without him.

(Interruptions.)

Order! Deputy Costello must be allowed to speak without interruption.

Has the Ceann Comhairle taken note of the conduct of the Minister for Agriculture?

(Interruptions.)

The Minister for Industry and Commerce has made a statement of which he ought to be thoroughly ashamed. We are not asking for free postage on the basis of this Bill. All we are asking for is free postage in accordance with the facilities normally granted.

Is that not one of the rights of a democratic people? Have the people not got that right? The Minister for Industry and Commerce wants to say: "As we are able to get vast quantities of money from certain rich people, we are able to fill the dead walls of the country with posters and get all sorts of facilities" but if an individual, or a Party, at a referendum or an election, has not the same amount of money, he gets the jibe from the Minister for Industry and Commerce that he is looking for free postage. Deputy MacEoin is not looking for free postage from the Minister. He is looking for his democratic rights and the democratic rights to which every citizen of the State is entitled, and has been entitled, since 1923.

(Interruptions.)

The very fact that the Minister for Agriculture and the rest of them cannot listen to what I started out to give as a reasonably reasoned case——

This is very enjoyable.

——demonstrates the fact that they have made this error and are trying to lay down a principle which, if this Bill is passed, will become a statutory principle, that the Government have the right to censor the election addresses of candidates in the future——

Nonsense.

I wish to deal, and I set out to deal, with this matter in a reasoned and reasonable way. We know we cannot satisfy the grinning Minister for Agriculture. He has his strong Government and his overall majority, and he will push anything through, reason or no reason. The people I want to get at are the people outside, in order that they may know the real matter behind this proposal, and may see at least from the very short outline of argument which I am giving, that there is a very strong contrary view to the view of the Minister.

Under those circumstances, it is an outrage on this Dáil, and on the people, to bring in a Bill of this kind forcing us to accept the position that Deputy MacEoin's election address is contrary to the law. In my opinion, it is not contrary to the law; it is well within the law. That is only my view and I am not infallible any more than the solicitor to the Post Office is not infallible. At the same time, to ask us to agree to a proposal of this kind, and to put into the Statute Book a statutory admission of this character, is something to which we cannot, in any circumstances, be a party, free postage or no free postage. We will get some people who have not got money but who have a certain zeal and a certain belief in our integrity, and in what we stand for, and they will go from door to door and we will do without free postage, so you can take it, so far as we are concerned, and do anything you like with it.

I stand here for a principle of democratic rights which would certainly be very seriously infringed if this Bill were passed into law. I submit that in a case where we have a controversial issue of a radical, not to say, and indeed to say, a revolutionary character, to suggest that a person who is standing for the Office of President under those circumstances is not to say one single word about a highly controversial issue, or not to tell the people from whom he seeks votes how he stands on that highly controversial issue, is a suggestion which, I think, would not be maintained in law, and certainly cannot be maintained either in justice or in common sense.

I want to put this argument again as another reinforcement—I could give many other tests and arguments—of the opinion I have given. Is a candidate at a Presidential election not entitled to adopt the attitude that he regards the office of President as a symbol of the unity of all sections of the community? That may or may not be an attitude that is acceptable to everybody, but he is entitled to adopt it, that so far as he is concerned, he is seeking to be elected, by popular vote, to a position which he regards as symbolishing the unity of the country, and that so far as he is concerned, the President, being an integral part of the Oireachtas, the Parliament of this country, which consists of the Dáil, the Seanad and the President, he takes the attitude, having regard to his conception of the office of President as symbolising the unity of the country, that a proposal which would, in his view, run entirely counter to that idea of symbolic unity by giving a disproportionate representation to one Party, and one section, is something that he does not and cannot stand for and that everybody who is voting should know that, and knowing it, should vote accordingly. Is he not entitled to say that? Does it not relate to the Presidential election? Is he not entitled to say:—"I do not want anybody who is voting for the abolition of P.R. to vote for me." Is he not entitled to say that? Is it not clearly something that has to do with the Presidential election, something of vital Concern? Is not any other interpretation of the statute, to put it mildly, a narrow one?

Whether there is a difference of opinion on this matter, or whether it is admissible to say there can be a difference of opinion, two things are quite clear, that the opinion on which the Government have acted will have grave consequences, entirely irrespective of Deputy MacEoin's election address which does not matter in this context, and grave consequences on the future Governments and future candidates for the Dáil. We have, therefore, to look at it on a broad basis, and bring this issue away from the ad hoc atmosphere in which it is proposed here in this Bill. Accordingly, I want to submit to Deputies—who are not merely yes-men—and people down the country that I am appealing that the proposal and the action of the Government in this matter, is such that it should get the reprobation of all fair-minded people who have the democratic principles of this country well at heart.

The jury will now retire.

We have just heard a great deal of tendentious nonsense from the Leader of the Opposition. The right of a candidate in a general or a Presidential election to advocate the abolition of P.R., the preservation of private property, the abolition of vivisection or any other issue is not at question here. It was completely dishonest on his part to suggest that is the issue involved in this Bill. The only question that arises here is the type of communication which is entitled, under the law, to the privilege of free postage. Outside the ambit of the free postage regulations, any candidate at any election can advocate anything he likes. The right of free postage is determined by law and what is in the law is that a candidate at a Presidential election may send free of charge through the post, communications relating to that election only.

Deputy J.A. Costello says he does not agree with the opinion of the solicitor to the Post Office who stated that the circular submitted to the Post Office for free circulation, by one of the candidates, did not conform to the legal requirements. Deputy Costello is entitled to his opinion. We prefer the opinion of the law officer of the Post Office and, indeed, his opinion is clearly in accord with common sense, the average man's interpretation of the words I have just used, that the communication to get the right to free postage must, under the law, relate to the Presidential election only. The circular that was submitted for free postage also contained references to, and exhortations to the voters, regarding the constitutional referendum which is now proceeding.

The law could provide for free postage in relation to a referendum. It just happens that it does not and, if there is any proposition to change the law so as to provide free postal facilities for somebody in a constitutional referendum, that can be considered. We are dealing now only with a question of the law as it is. I do not know if the Fine Gael Party made a blunder when they were preparing the election address for their Presidential candidate or whether, indeed, they decided to chance their arm. I do not think they made a blunder. Indeed, the managers of the Fine Gael election machine have the reputation of being very astute, indeed very cute, in the handling of matters of this kind. I think they knew quite well when they were drafting that election circular and submitting it to the Post Office that the Post Office would be bound, under the law, to refuse the right to free postage to it, and what they wanted to build up for themselves was a grievance they could exploit amongst the public, or else this opportunity which they are now having of forcing the Government to change the law so as to give them a facility that their opponents will not have.

Deputies

Hear, hear!

Another stunt.

The Government have decided to give them a Bill rather than a grievance. May I say, however, that while Deputy Costello made it clear he has not much enthusiasm for this Bill, the Government have a great deal less, and the little they have is rapidly evaporating?

Let it evaporate.

Take it away if you want to.

You can have this Bill if you want it, but you cannot then pretend to have a grievance. What we are proposing to do is that, in so far as you have prepared a circular in relation to the Presidential election which is not entitled, under the law as it is passed, to free postage, to give it free postage.

The Ceann Comhairle did not prepare any circular.

It is an advantage that you will have. The people working on behalf of the Fianna Fáil organisation were given specific instructions that nothing must go into envelopes submitted for free postage referring to the referendum on constitutional reform and, as Deputies well know, all arrangements in that regard are completed and cannot be changed now, so that, in consequence of the passage of this Bill, you have an advantage, not a disadvantage.

Let us be clear in this regard. What we are doing here is ad hoc legislation. It is a specific Bill designed on this one occasion to permit a candidate at this Presidential election to incorporate in the communication submitted for free postage matter not related to the Presidential election. We are not proposing to change the law. We do not think the law should be changed. We do not think the right of free postage should be given to candidates at an election except to a communication. relating to the election. There is no intention of changing the law relating to Dáil elections. That law has stood unchanged since 1923 and, if there has been any fault in the law, surely it would have emerged since then. In-indeed, I do not recall, in all elections held since then, any case has arisen where any candidate attempted to put into his free postage envelope matters not relating to the election in progress. This is the first time that has happened.

There was one case, in fact on the occasion of the last general election, in one Dublin constituency. A circular submitted on behalf of the Fianna Fáil candidates for free postage was received for free postage, and one of the candidates also submitted a personal circular in the same way. It was pointed out to him the law required that only one communication could be issued and the candidate concerned—he is now a member of the Dáil—paid up the amount of postage due on his communication. As far as I know, that is the only case in 35 years in which any question of interpretation or application of that law arose.

I do not think the law should be changed. I think this privilege which is given to candidates is not a fundamental democratic right. It is a privilege given by law to send out free of charge, at the taxpayers' expense, one communication to each elector dealing with the election in progress, and with that only. I think that is quite adequate and it is not necessary to extend or change the law. I do not think it is practicable to provide for free postage in relation to a constitutional referendum. In the case of candidates for an election, the identity of a candidate can be clearly established and the candidate, or his agent, can meet the requirements of the law. In the case of a constitutional referendum, the question as to whom the right of free postage should be given would be very difficult to decide and, presumably, that is why the law does not, in fact, contemplate free postage in relation to a constitutional referendum. Indeed, it has never been suggested in this House by any member that that law should be changed so as to give somebody the right to free postage for matter relating to a constitutional referendum.

I presume that the Presidential election candidate, whose address is the occasion of this Bill, or his agent, went to the Post Office and certified that the communication, for which he is seeking the privilege of free postage, related to the Presidential election only. If he did not give that certificate, then the material could not have been accepted by the Post Office. If he did give that certificate, then he himself must have been fully conscious of the fact that the matter did, in fact, refer to matters other than the Presidential election.

The enthusiasm, the little enthusiasm, which we had for this Bill is, as I said, evaporating. That is mainly because of the completely dishonest speech made by Deputy Dillon yesterday and reported in this morning's newspapers. The suggestion that the Government are trying to censor the election address of a Presidential candidate is completely dishonest. We knew, of course, that was probably the motive behind this manoeuvre. We knew when the election agents of the Fine Gael Party presented this circular to the Post Office, expecting it to be rejected, as it would have to be under the law, the purpose was obviously to enable that type of speech to be made. This Bill permits it to have free postage but you will have to arrange yourselves to have it passed by the Seanad. There will be a certain amount of poetic justice if the Seanad decides to hold it up for three months.

Deputies

Hear, hear!

It is up to you to arrange that, if you want the Bill, but here is the Bill for you. It provides ad hoc legislation, as Deputy Costello described it, to deal with one situation, the situation in which one candidate in the Presidential election prepared an election address which, under the law, was not entitled to free postage, and to give him the opportunity of repairing that blunder—if it was a blunder —and securing for that communication which was already in print the privilege of free postage and, therefore, avoid putting him to the disadvantage of having to prepare a new address for circulation, or meet the postage charge.

If there is any substance at all in Deputy Costello's contention that this Bill is not required, they can put that circular into the Post. They can, if necessary, lodge the amount of the postage charge and argue the matter out in the courts. If the courts hold with them they will get the amount so lodged back again. If they do not, then the charge presumably will be collected, but we do not want to impose that charge upon the people who are concerned in this instance. We are prepared to meet the problem that they created by preparing and printing an election address which was not entitled to free postage and to give to that document as they have prepared it, without any alteration, without any censorship, this privilege which the law provides in respect of a document relating to the Presidential election only. Therefore, be clear about the position in that regard.

There is no attempt to censor the statement of his views by any candidate in the Presidential election. There is no desire to limit in any way the freedom of a candidate in a Presidential election or a Dáil election to express any views he likes. Our only concern is to ensure that everything is done in accordance with the law, and when the law says that the communication to be issued free of charge must deal with the Presidential election only, then it is our job to ensure that the law is observed. In so far as it cannot be observed now by one of the candidates in the Presidential election, in reference to the election address he has prepared, then rather than appear to be unfair, rather than give any foundation for these dishonest suggestions of a desire on the part of the Government to limit his campaign or to censor his views, we are coming here with a Bill to change the law and to give you a special privilege on this one occasion only, free postage in respect of that election address.

I want to say a few calm words in connection with this Bill because I think what we ought to endeavour to do is to generate as much light as we can on this rather difficult situation instead of generating as much heat as we can. I do not want to indulge in any research into whether what has happened was a blunder or a manoeuvre. It is quite easy to see that assertions for and against that point of view have been made from both sides of the House. You will not find any solution by pursuing that. You will get long arguments which will keep us here all day frittering away time which could be more usefully spent.

There is not a very sagacious approach to this matter. For instance, there is a Preamble in this Bill the effect of which is to say to the Fine Gael Party: "Go on record and in law as having declared that while you contend what you did was perfectly right statutorily you are going to vote for a Bill in which you acknowledge you were wrong". We can regularise the position without rubbing that in in two sections of this Preamble and I do not think the elimination of the Preamble would in any way affect the validity of what it is sought to do in Sections 1, 2 and 3.

That is not the point. The point is that a change in the law is required. We do not think there should be a permanent change. It should be a change to deal with this one matter only and the Bill should make it quite clear that we are dealing with that.

I shall come to that. Are we going to approach this Bill from the point of view of finding the greatest possible area of disagreement or the greatest possible area of agreement? I am in favour of trying to find the maximum area of agreement and adjusting the matter in that way so that there will be no friction in relation to the Presidential election. But if you start off a Bill with the two "whereases" set out here, one gets the impression that this Bill was written, not with a pen but with a bayonet, for the purpose of rubbing into the Bill the implication that the Fine Gael Party were wrong. I think those two "whereases" could very well come out of this Bill and its validity otherwise would stand so far as the adjustment of the irregularity, if it be an irregularity, is concerned.

There is another way of dealing with this matter. If we intend to make a change of this kind either in relation to the 1959 Presidential election or in relation to future Presidential elections, surely it is the kind of thing that should be done after consultation, not merely between the two conflicting Parties in this instance but with other Parties in the House as well, and in an atmosphere in which there is less acrimony present than there is today on this issue. Is there any reason why this election address of General Seán MacEoin could not be sent out? It would not cost any more to send out a contentious election address than to send out a non-contentious election address and, whether there is a reference to P.R. in the address or not, it will not cost the State any more.

Is it not possible to approach the matter in this way and say: "All right. However the mistake, if it be a mistake, occurred, let us forget it for the moment." Get out the election address as if it were qualified to go out under the existing law and if there be any murmurings afterwards that it is a breach of The Prevention of Electoral Abuses Act, or any other difficulty arises, then let us pass in a calmer and cooler atmosphere whatever amending legislation is necessary to adjust retrospectively the difficulty we are discussing now.

The Government cannot set the law aside.

It is not a question of setting the law aside. Surely in 1959 there should be sufficient intellectual flexibility to say: "We shall leave over for the time being whether in fact the law has been broken or set aside. We shall look at it at the end of this month when the election is over and the new President is installed, and whatever then may be necessary we shall do it in order to regularise the position." The question whether the law is broken need not arise until then and if that bring peace, harmony and concord into the Presidential Election, is there not much to be said for that course of action instead of the Government coming along with a Bill which irritates the Fine Gael Party so that the Fine Gael Party says: "Take your Bill away, we do not want it. We shall have the address delivered otherwise"? A Bill which produces that kind of atmosphere will not settle anything and, if it is sought to settle it in that way, the question of this disputed election address will become as important, for the next three weeks, as the question of the election of a President or the retention or abolition of P.R.

That is what it was written for.

Even if I accept your admission I am giving you a way out——

The Deputy is mad because we are taking it.

I am giving you an opportunity to leave the whole vexed question as to whether the law has or has not been broken until the end of the month. Much of the difficulty arises from the daft method we have of electing a President. We have a President with purely ceremonial and almost receptionist powers and no other powers——

That is not so.

—— and we have a method of electing him by adult suffrage through the whole country. What we ought to do the next time we want to amend the Constitution is to provide for electing a President by an intelligent electoral college instead of by this dissipation of money in a Presidential election so that only people who are well endowed with funds can contemplate the expense of printing one and a quarter or one and a half million election addresses and supplying one and half million envelopes in which to circulate them through the entire country. That is a daft method of election in our circumstances, particularly having regard to the limited powers of the President. However, that is not what I want to say mainly.

I have suggested to the Government an easy way out of this difficulty if they wish to take it. If they do not take it, well and good, but if they do, they will have done a good day's work.

I want to follow the line Deputy Norton has taken in trying to deal with this matter very quietly and very calmly. I am quite certain that the election address which this ad hoc Bill deals with is within the law. I am quite certain that the people whom the Tánaiste mentioned as giving advice on the matter were approaching it not in the correct fashion. I accept that in a matter like this there can be two points of view.

I do not set myself up as being a constitutional lawyer in any way. I happen to have some experience in relation to elections. The wording to which the Minister for Industry and Commerce referred in Section 34 of the Presidential Elections Act, 1937, is "one communication relating only to the said election..." The Minister and the solicitor to the Post Office to whom he has referred have fallen into the error of thinking that it is the election address that is referred to in that section as being the communication. It is not. The communication is the contents of the envelope.

Nobody could say that the election address of Deputy MacEoin is other than a document of the Presidential election. What that section does, in my view and in our view—and it always has been my view and our view and it was on that basis that the election address was prepared—is that the law prohibits us, say, from putting, in addition to the Presidential election address, a leaflet, such as that which I have in my hands now advocating that P.R. should be retained, in the same envelope. It is the envelope and its contents that is the communication.

Has the Deputy any authority for that?

That is our view of the law. It always has been our view of the law and frankly I still think we are right. No argument has been adduced by anybody concerned so far which has shown me in any way to be wrong.

I thought, when this matter was raised last Wednesday, the indication of the Minister for Industry and Commerce was that there was an acceptance of the view that they had one point of view of the law and we had another. I do not claim for one second that Deputy MacEoin should in any way be above the law. His whole record in public life in this country shows that at all times he wished to conform to the Irish law. There was a difference of view. That is our view of the law. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has given the view of the Post Office solicitor and Deputy J.A. Costello made it quite clear why he disagrees with the Post Office solicitor's view of the law. Now we have this Bill. Sections 1, 2 and 3 of the Bill deal with a difference in the point of view of the two approaches to the law, but the Preamble is not a Preamble necessary to that Bill and the Preamble has been put in only for political purposes.

It is ad hoc legislation.

The ad hoc legislation appears clearly in Section 2 (1). I am sorry to deal with it on a Committee basis now but I must do so because of the interruption by the Minister.

It is to make it clear that this is not to be regarded as a precedent for any future legislation.

The ad hoc nature of the matter is dealt with when it says in the last line of Section 2 (1) “relating to that election and to the 1959 referendum.” That makes it clear that it is only the 1959 referendum that is involved. The first paragraph of the Preamble, as it has been introduced, adds nothing to the law. The position in relation to the law as it is at present is clearly that the interpretation of the law as it is at present can finally be resolved only as between the view of one lawyer and another after a Supreme Court decision. We have not got the big funds to put down the amount the Minister for Industry and Commerce suggests. That is not a practical way of dealing with the situation, and he knows it.

Deputy MacEoin wishes to conform to the law. We think his election address does conform to the law. The Government say that it does not. All right. What does that mean? Is the answer to that not that there is a doubt as to which view is in conformity with the law? The first paragraph of the Preamble does not in any way resolve a doubt. It says categorically, and I put this very quietly to the Minister, that the only point in the first paragraph is for the Minister to use his majority to ram down our throats that our view of the law is incorrect.

The point is that we do not think that this is a change which is desirable of itself. We would not, indeed, have proposed this change but for the special circumstances referred to in the Preamble. That is why the Preamble is required. It is required so as to indicate that we are not setting any precedent. This is not something that should be done. It is something we are doing only in the circumstances.

Is that not covered by "relating only to that election"?

We would not have proposed this change in the law relating to the 1959 election if these special circumstances had——

Is the Minister not now on record as saying he does not accept this in principle? Drop the Preamble and let this blooming Bill be passed.

If we said nothing about these, the Bill would be law by tomorrow night and it would be forgotten by Monday.

Just give me five seconds.

The Minister is looking a gift horse in the month.

Why not agree to the Bill as it is? Because you object to it? Right.

Because the first paragraph of the Preamble is not, in our view, a correct statement of the fact and we cannot go on record as accepting something which, in our view, is not true.

We do not accept your interpretation of the law.

I do not ask you to accept my interpretation. I am taking the line that the Government have one interpretation and we have another and that the proper thing in such circumstances, in relation to a matter like this, is that neither side should try to force its interpretation down the throats of the other. The Minister is trying to force his interpretation down my throat; I am not trying to force my interpretation down his throat. I am suggesting that each of us should be able to hold his own opinion. If the Government wish, make it an ad hoc issue and let it be clearly understood that the Government have their view and that we have our view.

I do not want to go into the argument about what is "relating to the election only." I just want to make this comment. It seems clear that at some stage we should have amending legislation on this subject. For the life of me, I cannot see what was intended in the difference in wording between Section 50 (1) of the 1923 Prevention of Electoral Abuses Acts dealing with general elections and Section 31 (1) of the Presidential Elections Act, 1937. They propose to cover the same thing. They should be in identical wording but they are not. In any future permanent legislation, the wording of these two sections should be identical. One introduces the word "matter" while the other does not.

It is quite clear that the present situation has been dealt with on an ad hoc legal basis—on the basis of dealing merely with two points of view. There is no necessity for the first paragraph of the Preamble and if the Tánaiste insists on the retention of the first paragraph, it can only mean he is anxious to do so for a reason other than the ad hoc issue here involved.

I do not know whether it is thought necessary to sit after 2 p.m. to-day. If so, it will be necessary to move accordingly now.

Could I not appeal to the Tánaiste to adopt——

So far as these points are concerned, the Deputy will appreciate that I cannot give a decision on behalf of the Government in that way. Certainly any representations made here will be considered. Therefore, I would suggest that if the Second Reading is passed, the Dáil might adjourn for half an hour.

Certainly.

May an Independent say a few words on this matter?

Before the Deputy does so, does the Dáil agree to sit after 2 p.m. and that the motion for the adjournment be taken not later than 6 p.m.?

I object to the Bill. Why should a Bill be introduced to suit an opposite number? We are told that all persons are equal before the law. I wonder if I were a candidate, would a Bill be introduced to suit me? Here we are told the law has been broken and a special Bill to suit an opposite number is introduced. It is an indication of what Parliament will be like in the future. There are two Labour Deputies and two Independents here at the moment. That is something like what you will have if the P.R. Bill is passed.

My point is: Why should the law be broken to suit an opposite number? The very Act itself is contravened. Only two people are contesting this election which any member of the community should be able to contest if he wished. I am protesting because I feel this is a case of: "Scratch my back and later I will be able to scratch yours." That seems to be the whole principle of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Would the House agree to adjourn now until, say, 12.30 p.m.?

Agreed.

Business suspended at 11.45 a.m. and resumed at 12.30 p.m.

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