Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 2 Jun 1959

Vol. 175 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 61—Office of the Minister for Social Welfare (resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That a sum not exceeding £321,600 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1960, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare. —(Minister for Social Welfare.)

Mr. Tierney

With regard to pensions and social welfare legislation, if an ex-Army man of either the Irish or the British Army receives an increase in his Army pension, his old age pension is reduced by an equivalent sum. The same principle is applied in relation to those drawing benefits such as home assistance or disability allowances. Remembering the poor circumstances in which these people live, I would urge on the Parliamentary Secretary that he should issue a direction to local authorities not to make any reduction in relation to the proposed increases. In the past increases have been taken into calculation. The home assistance officers, and others interested in these matters, reduce the assistance given to these unfortunate people by an amount equivalent to the increase granted by this House. The Parliamentary Secretary should make it quite clear that no such reductions should be made in future.

It is my honest belief that we approach old age pensions from the wrong angle entirely. Old age pensioners who have been industrious and thrifty all their lives pay for that thrift and industry when they reach 70 years of age. On the other hand, the small farmer or the labourer who has been neither industrious nor thrifty is automatically awarded the full pension. The existing anomaly should be removed. I believe—I do not know whether or not the House will agree—that the day will have to come when there will be no means test whatsoever for old age pensions. When a man or a woman reaches 70 years of age, and has given many years' work to the State, he or she should be entitled to the old age pension without any means test. The means test costs more in finding out whether or not John So-and-So or Mrs. So-and-So is entitled to a pension than would pay for the pensions to which I believe they are entitled at 70 years of age.

People employed by the Department of Social Welfare in branch offices have grievences of various kinds. In places up and down the country, these people are employed full-time and the rate of wages they receive is very small when compared with that of their fellow-workers in the Civil Service. A case in point is that a Social Welfare worker in a fairly big industrial town may have to deal with a couple of thousand people and he receives a very small wage. Strange to say even when he works a full twelve months, he is entitled to only one week's holidays. I believe a county council worker gets two weeks' holidays while a Social Welfare worker in a branch office down the country is entitled to only one week. The conditions applying to that are that he must employ someone over 21 years of age who is capable of carrying out the work in that branch for the week, but the Social Welfare man must take full responsibility for that other man's actions. The wages laid down by the Department of Social Welfare for that man in a branch office are £4 15s. I believe there is room for improvement in that case. Some time ago, an increase of 10/- per week was given to civil servants. I find it hard to understand why the people who are actually dealing with the poor and who have a vast number of people to deal with were given an increase of only 5/-.

The last plea I wish to make to the Minister is in regard to road workers. So far as they are concerned, the county councils in the 26 Counties have adopted a Superannuation Act. In North Tipperary, workers who have been making superannuation payments for only a certain number of years will not qualify for a full pension under the Superannuation Act. They feel that if they pay only a certain amount in respect of superannuation, the Department of Social Welfare will make up the difference, while if they pay over a certain amount, the Department will take it from them. The Parliamentary Secretary should go carefully into the case of a worker who is paying superannuation for only ten or 15 years and may qualify for roughly £1 10/- a week —I am just instancing figures—and if he only qualifies for that amount possibly he will receive only 10/- per week old age pension. The whole thing should be gone into very carefully in an effort to draw up a fair scale for the lower paid worker paying in respect of superannuation and for the ex-army man, whether ex-British or ex-Irish Army, who is receiving a small amount of money, in an effort to give him a small increase. The Parliamentary Secretary should deal with each case on its merits.

Mr. J. Brennan

I just want to make one point in relation to the old age pensions means test. I shall not, like the previous speaker, advocate that the means test should be completely abolished. That is a matter on which there are two schools of thought. I am concerned with the statutory limit in so far as it operates against certain individuals. The pensioner who is living alone very often has no relatives to look after him or her, and I believe the statutory limit of £104 should not, in that case, be rigidly enforced. As the law stands at the moment, it must be.

As a member of an old age pensions sub-committee, I frequently come across cases of people who are just up to the statutory limit or a few shillings over it, who are put in the same category as pensioners living with their married sons, or other members of their families, who are in a better position to exist on the statutory limit than the person who has no relatives, no friends, and very often no property, ownership of a dwelling or anything like that. From my experience of those cases, I believe the Parliamentary Secretary should have an examination carried out to see if we are not right in saying that undue hardships are being inflicted in many cases. I do not think it would impose an excessive strain on the Exchequer if some adjustment were made.

The case I have in mind, which I came across recently, and the similar case to which the previous speaker referred suggested to me that I should try to impress on the Parliamentary Secretary the importance of looking into such cases. I do not think it is possible for any person who has to depend entirely on the statutory limit of £104 per year, without any other means whatever, to exist on that. I find that the means test is just as rigidly imposed in those cases as if the applicant were living with relatives in a household where many people with other sources of incomes would, in any event, look after him.

Mr. Lindsay

From the outset, one cannot help being in sympathy with the view expressed by Deputy Brennan just now in relation to that type of old age pensioner who is living alone and has no other means. While Deputy Brennan does not go so far as to urge the abolition of the means test, I am afraid I would, and do, strong in the belief that resultant advantages, both from the point of view of the State and the people of the country, would be manifold and well worth striving to attain.

The means test, as applied to old age pensioners inter alios, in my opinion, is conducive, if not to fraud, certainly to—if one could call it so— white deceit or white lies being told in relation to their actual holdings at the time they apply for pensions. We are all familiar with assignments that take place some short time before applications are made, and of the various and many portions of evidence that must be offered to show that a particular assignment did not carry with it any of the badge of seeking to get an old age pension in a way other than the ordinary way.

Apart altogether from that aspect, I am satisfied, and I think a big number of people throughout the country are satisfied, that the complete abolition of the means test in relation to old age pensions would go a long way towards solving our problem with regard to savings, particularly small savings.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy of course knows that would require legislation.

Mr. Lindsay

Of course I do, but at the same time, I do not think I am outside the ambit of the scope of things when I say this.

An Ceann Comhairle

I shall allow the Deputy to go a good way, but advocating legislation is not in order.

Mr. Lindsay

One could get around it in this way by a relaxation of existing legislation, without the necessity for bringing in anything further. I am satisfied that a relaxation of existing legislation would help. If people know, in so far as the statutory limit is concerned, that in their means test they will not be penalised for having accrued savings, whether in savings banks, in the post office or somewhere else, they will not be deterred in their efforts to save and provide for themselves and possibly their families by the fear that this strict limit in the means test will be operated against them.

Throughout the country, considerable anxiety has resulted from increased activity in the matter of examination and re-examination of applications for old age pensions, unemployment assistance and unemployment insurance generally. There is one aspect of it which is causing the greatest concern of all, that is, the case of the younger people who live together in a house and are recipients of some one of the social welfare benefits. They are being penalised by reason of the fact that the number of animals on the holding is being attributed to each and every recipient. There is also the other case, that a man and wife, living on a holding, to a certain extent have advantages from it, but it is not their own. They are only there on a day to day basis and could be removed at any time by the real owner, whether he be a father, an uncle, or anybody else, and I think that the taking into account of the advantages which they have from living on such land could also be relaxed. As Deputy Tierney urged, there is room for a recasting of the whole outlook on social welfare in a country such as this and particularly with regard to old age pensions.

Mr. Russell

First of all, I should like to say that I am not quite sure whether it is to be taken as a matter of congratulation or reproof that we spend approximately 25 per cent. of the Budget each year on social welfare—something in the nature of £25,000,000. Of course the argument can be put forward that if conditions in the country were more prosperous, there would be less necessity to pay social welfare benefits. As against that, I think we must face up to the fact that a big proportion of the £25,000,000 is paid each year to classes of people who, in any event, would have to be assisted by any community calling itself a Christian state.

It is not without significance that of the figure of £25,000,000, some £20½ million is paid out by way of social assistance to one or other necessitous class, and 50 per cent of the entire £20,000,000 which goes to social assistance goes to old age pensioners. I do not think any member of the House would agree that the recipients of old age pensions are overpaid or are over-generously treated. It has been suggested by some of the previous speakers that it would be a good thing to do away with the means test altogether, but I must say, having regard to the present circumstances of the country, I think that would not be a practical step to take. I take the view that if we are to spend money on social welfare, or social assistance, our first duty is to assist those in greatest need and to give those in greatest need the greatest possible amount to help them.

Deputy Brennan drew a contrast between the old age pensioner living with his family—possibly a farmer who has transferred his farm to a son or daughter, or some other relative, and continues to live with them—and the old age pensioner living alone in Dublin, Cork or Limerick, with no other possible source of income except the maximum old age pension recently increased to 27/6d. per week. If such a person lives in a corporation house, he or she will pay a minimum rent of possibly 6/- a week, leaving little over £1 a week to subsist on for seven days of each week, or just three shillings a day. If we have any extra funds, I think the first people to help would be the type of person I have just mentioned, the old people living alone in the cities and large towns. Without wishing to be ungenerous to those people living with their relatives, I do think the greatest need amongst old people at the moment is that of the old people who live alone in our cities and towns.

If any increases were to be given to any other section, I must say I should be inclined to direct my attention to the youngest, the very opposite section to the oldest. I should like to see an increase in the amount of children's allowances. I think this is possibly the best and most practical way of helping families of all kinds, young and old, rich and poor alike, and when the Minister is in a position to consider increases in social welfare, social assistance in general, I should like to see some increase given in the amount of children's allowances.

Next I should like to deal with a category of persons to which, not only myself but I think most Deputies in the House, have alluded from time to time by way of questions in the Dáil and when the annual Estimate for Social Welfare comes before us for consideration. I refer to the body of people whom I regard as the worst off section of the community today, namely, those who are dependent on unemployment assistance. Even after taking into consideration the recent increases given to this class, we here in Christian Ireland, 37 years after the State was established, expect a man, his wife and two or more children to live on £2 a week or even less in rural areas. The expression "two or more children" means three, four, five, six and in some cases seven children. Every Deputy, every city councillor and every county councillor knows of families living on that small amount of money. The only way they can exist and keep body and soul together is by becoming beggars of the local authority or of individuals. It is a tragic state of affairs.

It is a condemnation of this State of ours in the mid-twentieth century that, in spite of all the progress we have made and in spite of all the speeches made over the years about our regard for the poor, the sick and the needy, we still at this stage expect a man, his wife and family to exist on a little over £2 a week. I am aware that it can be argued that it is not intended that a man and his family should have to depend solely on that amount as it is a form of assistance to help him in periods of unemployment or when he is no longer entitled to unemployment benefit. However, we must face the facts.

Apparently we shall have a continuation of a high level of unemployment in this country for a number of years to come. I think that even the members of the present Government will agree that, in spite of their efforts of the past two years or more, we are, substantially, still in the same position as we were when they came into office in 1957 and indeed for many years prior to that. It looks to me as if, in spite of the fact that we are now about to devote a substantial sum of money to investment in public and private enterprise, we shall have to carry thousands of people each year who will be dependent either on relief works for a couple of weeks of the year or on social assistance of one kind or another.

Irrespective of what Government may be in office, there is an obligation on us to bring the miserable sums payable to these people up to some sort of reasonable standard so that they can exist and keep body and soul together. I am conscious that we cannot do everything we would like to do. I am quite certain the Parliamentary Secretary would like to be far more generous. However, in a small country with limited resources, I suggest first things should come first. In this instance, if necessary by cutting some of the other headings, a substantial increase should be given to people in the unemployment assistance class.

The arguments I have advanced in regard to unemployment assistance recipients applies equally strongly to the non-contributory widows' and orphans' pensions.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is advocating legislation and that is not permitted on Estimates. I have given the Deputy a good innings.

Mr. Russell

Thank you; it is very hard to avoid it. The blind are another class we will have with us, in spite of advances in medical science. I see that the total payments this year have been reduced from £15,000 to £14,500. These are completely helpless people who are dependent on the State or on voluntary assistance. This is an opportune moment to pay a tribute—I am sure the Minister would pay the tribute —to the several voluntary societies that help blind persons. No praise is too high for the work these societies do for a very helpless section of the community.

Last on the list, I want to refer to the fuel grant which amounts to £162,000 and is a payment of the local authorities to subsidise the price of fuel during severe winter months to necessitous persons. This was brought in, generally I think, during the emergency and was applicable to certain areas. I suggest to the Minister that as this has now become an established social service, the amounts given to the various areas should be related to the persons living in those areas. I am particularly conversant with the position in Limerick City. Up to a few years ago, the total amount given to the Limerick Corporation was £1,250 as against four and five times that amount granted to very much smaller areas. During his period of office as Minister for Social Welfare, I am glad to say that Deputy Corish substantially increased the amount payable to Limerick Corporation to its present figure of £5,500 but even this figure compares very unfavourably with the payments to some smaller centres. I suggest the time is opportune to review this whole scheme of payments in respect of the cheap fuel scheme and to make a payment relative to the number of people living in the area concerned.

Other Deputies have referred to decentralisation in regard to the payment of social welfare benefits. I add my voice to that plea. Every Deputy has come across cases where there would appear to be an inordinate delay in dealing with claims for social insurance or social assistance. I think the Minister could, with benefit, give more authority and more autonomy to managers of branches of his Department. It would save a good deal of trouble and a lot of delay for the people concerned. While these delays are taking place, I think some arrangement could be come to between the Minister's Department and the local authority to ensure that the people waiting for payments will receive out of home assistance from the local authority an amount equal to what they will ultimately get from the Department. In theory, that is supposed to happen. They are supposed to get home assistance to keep them going. We all know that the actual home assistance paid out to people waiting for unemployment assistance or unemployment benefit or some other welfare payment is substantially less than what they ultimately get. If some hard and fast arrangement could be come to so that the local authority could automatically be reimbursed when the person concerned got the payment, it would save a good deal of trouble and a lot of unnecessary suffering.

I want to refer to the various dispensary and other buildings to which people go to receive assistance of one class or another. Some of these buildings are more reminiscent of a century ago than of the enlightened modern outlook on social welfare generally. Some steps should be taken to make these places brighter, more cheerful and more presentable than many of them are at present. In Limerick City, there is only one permanent home assistance officer to deal with a very substantial number of home assistance cases daily. Some help should be given to allow him to deal with the cases expeditiously and to prevent the long waits which some people have to undergo at present. I hope the Minister will review the position and, if not this year perhaps next year, will give some increase to one class in particular, namely, people receiving the present miserable sums for unemployment assistance.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare (Mr. Kennedy)

The first matter with which I should like to deal is Deputy Corish's motion, referring to the extension of the first Unemployment Period Order. The basic reason for extending that Order is that we found, and find, that the end of October is the period for harvesting work, particularly in the beet fields, and for threshing and such operations. This is a very limited Order. The House should be aware that if a man has a £4 valuation in land he is in receipt of unemployment assistance the whole year round and he is not interfered with. It is when his valuation exceeds that amount that the first Unemployment Period Order applies. As I said, we have extended that because we find that the harvesting is not finished and there is a lot of threshing to be done. The number of people in the Twenty-six Counties affected by the extension of that period for a fortnight over the past year was 3,305 and they have land which is in excess of £4 valuation. On examination of this subject, we decided on that extension, and that is the main reason for extending the period.

Deputy Corish also referred to national health agents. We have a very open mind on this whole question. It is not from the point of view of economy that we are not filling vacancies. The national health agent should be more than a glorified postman for delivering national health benefit cheques. There is a set of rules laid down for the carrying out of the duties of a national health agent but I do not think that they are observed in all cases. In a good many cases, they are not observed. We decided as an experiment—and we are not tied down to any system; the matter is under examination—to have the work done from the offices where vacancies occur without interfering with the livelihood of any national health agent, and it is working reasonably well.

As a rule, national health agents have various other occupations. They are rent collectors or rate collectors and they are not depending on this occupation. In fact, the scale of pay varies from £1 a week up to the salary of the whole-time officer in certain urban areas. The Department of Social Welfare is a new department. It has been built up by bringing in a few people from Industry and Commerce, a few from Local Government and the unified society and so on. In the short period of its existence, the officers in charge have done a marvellous job in trying to bring cohesion into the service and not have it all in watertight departments.

The first beginning was the unified stamp. The principle underlying the unified stamp is something which we should like to extend into all the services. I remember when I previously occupied this position going into the town of Westport and when I sought out what we call the labour exchange, I was directed to one place; the national health agent was a mile away, up in the hills, and you had to go to the quays in Westport to get the Social Welfare officer. That was all very well for me, but for the ordinary citizen who had to be served, it was possible that he would have to visit the three places. It was very unfair to that citizen to have to walk miles for a service which should be unified in the town of Westport and in any other town. Our whole approach to this is to have such unification as to give the best possible service and it is not from the point of view of economy principally—we shall economise where we can and it is up to us to economise where we can— that we are trying out this experiment to which Deputy Corish refers.

Mr. Corish

The Parliamentary Secretary will remember that on this occasion, I was not critical. I merely asked him——

Mr. Kennedy

I know that. I appreciate the Deputy's co-operation but other Deputies have mentioned the matter and as the Deputy had the motion down, it led off the debate.

Mr. Corish

How is it working out? That is what I am interested in.

Mr. Kennedy

It is working out very well in the towns; I shall not say so much for the rural areas. The beneficiary knows what he has to do and is immediate to the labour exchange and he gets his directions from the officers in the labour exchange. I assure the House that the matter is under close examination, with the view to giving the best possible service to the beneficiaries and the insured.

The question of home assistance and home assistance officers has cropped up throughout the debate. I should like to see as far as I can, whilst I am in the Department, home assistance officers who are established officers, pensionable officers and whose duties are the administration of home assistance and nothing else. It is a very important service and I would ask the co-operation of Deputies in all Parties who are on public boards to work towards that aim. This matter of a home assistance official having a small pay for administering home assistance, being a rent collector and probably a rate collector and a whole lot of other things——

Mr. Corish

The job is too important to be given to any Tom, Dick or Harry.

Mr. Kennedy

It is.

Mr. Corish

It is one of the most important jobs in the Department.

Mr. Kennedy

As the Deputy knows we cannot force the local authority.

Mr. Corish

Could you not submit regulations for recruitment? That would ensure that the right types were employed.

Mr. Kennedy

We have approached the local authorities again and again and asked for their co-operation, particularly where vacancies occur. In some cases, we have got co-operation and in others we have not but we shall keep knocking at the door until we have. We regard this appointment as a very important one. That is all I have to say on the matter at the moment.

Mr. Corish

If the Parliamentary Secretary did nothing else but made an improvement in that respect, then his term of office would have been worth while.

Mr. Kennedy

I appreciate what the Deputy says. It was said during the debate by at least one Deputy that a branch manager, in addition to doing the work of the office, has to pay a substitute. That is wrong. Very often the substitute is a wife or a sister. It is merely a nominal appointment in cases where the officer concerned falls ill and the person has to take up the running of the office for him. That is all it amounts to in the majority of cases.

Deputy J. Brennan referred to the means test. He is a good Northern Deputy. Might I remind him of the Northern proverb that "every mickle makes a muckle"? If we were to abolish the means test in regard to old age pensions alone, the cost to the State would be £2¾ million. But you could not abolish the means test on one thing only. You would have to abolish it in regard to widows' non-contributory pensions and so on down along the line. The cost would be such that the State could not bear it at the moment. It is very doubtful if in our economy—we are a nation of small farmers and we depend principally on agriculture—you could have a complete welfare State here. Personally, I do not believe you could. You must cut your cloth according to your yard.

The point was made that we should go easier on persons with £104 a year and living alone than on persons with the same income but living with their families. That is all very well. But the people in whom I am principally interested are those who have been referred to by the Deputy from Limerick—the people who have not 4d. in the year, those who have nothing at all. They are the people who deserve the sympathy of the State. As far as the Department are concerned, it will be indicated to the local authority that when the 2/6d. increase comes in the old age pension, it should not interfere with any home assistance given within the recent past by way of amelioration for the difficult conditions under which recipients live.

Mr. Sherwin

That is what the Parliamentary Secretary desires—that the half-crown should not be taken into consideration?

Mr. Kennedy

Yes. But there is always the smart Alec who tries to get away with it. You have to keep a weather-eye out for him.

Mr. Corish

You have them in every profession—politicians, lawyers, doctors.

Mr. Kennedy

That is why there is a need for a Department. There has been complaint about the delay in investigating claims for old age pensions. The rules are there. An old age pension committee is supposed to meet within seven days from the receipt of the claim. The committee is supposed to meet and is supposed to do many things. All I can say is that the old age pension claim is paid from the day of its receipt in the Department where the applicant is then 70 years.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

If the claimant is still alive.

Mr. Kennedy

We shall bear in mind the representations made about delays in dealing with the investigation of old age pensions. If the claimant would get the claim form in the Post Office and the birth certificate and send them on in time, that would be very helpful.

Deputy Tierney said that the means test was applied in the case of thrifty people, whereas people who were spendthrifts got full social welfare benefits. I know labouring men who boast that they have contributed to insurance all their lives and never claimed sixpence benefit of any kind. I said to one of them: "Do you grudge the benefit your neighbour gets when he falls sick or is unemployed?" and he replied: "Certainly not."

Mr. Corish

Would a no-claims bonus not be an incentive?

Mr. Kennedy

I do not know.

Mr. Corish

The Parliamentary Secretary should investigate it.

Mr. Kennedy

Deputy Lindsay complained that local agents of the Department of Social Welfare did not get the full cost of living increase of 10/- granted to the Civil Service generally. That increase applied only to full-time staff. Local agents are classified as part-time and thus qualified only for the increase applicable to part-time staff, namely, 5/- a week.

Deputy Russell advoocated an increase in children's allowances. That is very admirable, but, as the Deputy knows, it is the second biggest figure of expenditure in the Social Assistance Vote, being over £7,000,000. Any appreciable increase would be very costly. But certainly the representations on that matter will be borne in mind.

Deputy Lindsay referred to the value of stock on a farm being taken into account when computations are being made in regard to old age pensions, unemployment assistance and so on. In that respect, we do not treat the people living in a house as individuals; we treat them as members of a family. I think that is the approach in every European country on this side of the Iron Curtain—that the family is treated as a unit. But when we are making a computation of the value of the stock, we do not take that into account when the son or the daughter applies for social benefit. It is taken into account only in the case of the parents. We do not take it into account in every individual case. When it is disposed of in the case of the parents, it is done.

Deputy Cunningham made a complaint in regard to the delay in paying the benefit in respect of social assistance. The principal cause of the delay is in the case of doubtful stamping. There has been enough of that to cause us to pause and investigate. We certainly pause to investigate wherever we have any doubt. The practice is sufficient to make us look up to see that a person does not pay two guineas for 13 stamps and draw £80 from the State.

Deputy Corish dealt with the New Ross office in relation to the social welfare offices. In my introductory remarks on this Estimate, I indicated that our objective was to have an office in a town where our services at least would be centralised so that the citizen coming to look for his rights would not have to trot up and down everywhere. We know the New Ross arrangements are bad. We shall try during the year to rectify them. Everything has to go through the bottle-neck of Finance. We are aiming at a decent building for a social welfare office where the old age pensioner and others can go in without having to run all over the locality looking for an officer.

Mr. Corish

Could the Parliamentary Secretary state whether the efforts as yet have been successful to any degree in providing the offices he describes in New Ross.

Mr. Kennedy

I do not think I am giving away State secrets when I say that Finance allows two offices a year. We have got two now.

Mr. Corish

I told the Parliamentary Secretary that these people are being interviewed in the homes of the social welfare officers.

Mr. Kennedy

That is a very wrong arrangement and should not happen.

Mr. Corish

I think there is some accommodation, even temporary accommodation, that could be got for them in public offices in New Ross.

Mr. Kennedy

We shall examine the Deputy's point of view. Deputy Moloney spoke about the remuneration of local agents. As I said, some are paid £1 a week and others are paid a pensionable salary, and wherever an agency occurs, we are not filling it. We are trying an experiment as to what is the best way of giving disablement benefit, doing it in the most economic way and with the best benefits to the recipient.

The Workmen's Compensation Commission has held 75 meetings since it first met in 1956. It is hoped that the work may be finished within the next 12 months. The total cost of the Commission up to 31st March, 1959, was £8,656.

Deputy Moloney advocated that Gardaí should attend on one day per week to certify evidence of unemployment by persons living in isolated areas. We could not accept that. Kerry may be the exception—I do not know—but this contention that claimants for unemployment assistance have to footslog miles to certify their unemployment at a Garda barracks is the exception in the country. The bicycle is very much in use all over the country. I know a good deal of the west, Donegal and my own county and I know the east of the country. In those parts at any rate, the people come on bicycles. The isolated case which Deputy Moloney makes for a part of Kerry would not justify our doing what he advocates for the rest of the country.

Deputy Norton raised a point about the delay in replying to Deputies and that the thing was a fait accompli when the Deputy got the reply. We shall try to avoid that as much as possible, particularly in regard to the representations from Deputies, but I think that affiction does not apply to the Department of Social Welfare alone. As a Deputy, I have often experienced it in other Departments. As far as we can, we shall hurry up the reply.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

On that, would the Parliamentary Secretary stop the practice of sending out the printed document to Deputies?

Mr. Kennedy

I think the origin of that was an economy.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

It is not really an economy. The Deputy generally writes in again and then you get a proper letter back.

Mr. Kennedy

If the Deputy writes to me about anything, I shall send him a letter. Deputy Norton desires that, where an appeal is made against the decision of the medical referee, the claimant should not again be referred to the same referee. This is a matter of some practical difficulty and I am sure the Deputy is aware of it. This matter is under consideration. While every effort is made to have the reexamination carried out by a different referee, it is not always practicable to have a different referee. As far as we can carry out the desire expressed by the Deputy and other Deputies, we shall try to do so.

We shall try to expedite during the coming year the question of appeals and have more dealt with locally and decisions come to more rapidly. This business of wet time has been under examination and I am glad of the co-operation of the Labour Benches in this matter. It is being examined at present. The climate of opinion that we want, created by the contribution of Deputy Kyne, is certainly a help. There certainly have been great abuses in regard to wet time stamping. In all these matters we want everybody's co-operation, especially in resisting fraud of any kind. The more it can be eradicated, the better benefits we can give and the better health services we can create. It will be for the national good if we can get general co-operation. The trade union leaders, I knew, were always against anything that was not above board and I was very glad to note Deputy Kyne's contribution on the question of wet time.

Deputy Kyne referred to the reluctance of the Department to co-operate in the recovery of benefits lost by reason of an employer's failure to stamp insurance cards. The Department in such cases explains to the insured person his right to recover lost benefits and I think it is only right that the aggrieved person should exercise his rights in these cases. Under the Social Welfare Acts the Minister is empowered to take action and, in fact, each year sums are recovered from employers and paid to the insured persons concerned. The insured person should know his rights. Last year, in replying to the debate, I said that a simple action by the employer would help the Department. The employer should insist when employing a man, whether casually or whole time, that the man hand in his insurance card straight away. That would make for straight dealing between employer and employee and would help the Department very much.

Deputy Corish and others referred to the necessity for wider powers of decision in certain cases relating to unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance. That matter is under active consideration and in the present year we mean——

Mr. Corish

Does the Parliamentary Secretary remember the example I gave last week?

Mr. Kennedy

Yes, but I do not think it was a good one.

Mr. Corish

He was knocked down on Friday, anyhow.

Mr. Kennedy

It is certainly a justifiable complaint if an agent has a shop himself. The regulations imply that he should have an office separate from his shop. It revolves round the question of making the agent a man in full occupation of his post so that he will not be dependent on anything else, just like the branch manager or the home assistance officer.

There is no arbitrary rule in the investigation of means but in some of these cases, where 20 years ago a qualification certificate was given to a claimant who is now seeking the old age pension, the pension officer must take present values into account. Values of certain things have gone up very considerably in that period. I shall not go into all the stock on the farm——

Mr. Dillon

I thought you would say a word about calves.

Mr. Kennedy

Even calves have gone up in value very much in the past 20 years.

Mr. Dillon

The Parliamentary Secretary is very discreet in his reference to them.

Mr. Kennedy

I think I shall continue to be discreet; otherwise Deputy Dillon and I might cross swords on the matter. The fact is that, on reexamination of a claim, say, for old age pension or non-contributory widow's pension that was not examined for 20 years, it is found that values have gone up.

Mr. Dillon

If an old age pensioner survives 20 years in receipt of his pension, he might be allowed to enjoy it for the remainder of his days.

Mr. Kennedy

No, I am referring to a man with a qualification certificate for unemployment assistance for 20 years who becomes an applicant for the old age pension. There is a re-investigation of means. In that period, the values of agricultural produce have gone up. In all these things, we should like to give greater benefits under social assistance but of the £25,000,000 spent on social assistance and social insurance, £20,000,000 is spent on social assistance. That is a very big sum and one cannot select one particular body of beneficaries and give them increased benefits, leaving the others out because there would very soon be a public outcry that the same benefits should be given to the others. That claim could not be successfully resisted. Therefore, one must approach the matter with caution and bear in mind the resources of the nation and the ability of the taxpayer and the contributor to bear the burden. Consequently, these must be the primary considerations, even while considering all the representations made by Deputies.

May I say, in conclusion, that over the past quarter of a century our social welfare legislation has been very considerable? It has penetrated every home in the land and its scope has increased enormously. Even allowing for the depreciation in the value of money during that period, the sum involved is very large. It is quarter of the current expenditure. We should like to make it more but we are dealing today with services costing £25,000,000.

Mr. Dillon

I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary one question. It has been alleged to me that in the City of Dublin certain old age pensioners in receipt even of the full pension are in a state of destitution and malnutrition. Am I right in believing that there is a statutory duty on the local authority to give by way of home assistance to an old age pensioner who is destitute an additional sum sufficient to bridge the gap between destitution and sufficiency to maintain a reasonable standard of existence?

Mr. Corish

Yes, definitely.

Mr. Kennedy

The Deputy is right in his assumption but a person in the category to which the Deputy refers must first make an application to the local authority and, as the Deputy is aware, there are certain people with a sense of pride, which is understandable, who will never do that. However, where the application is made the local authority is bound to give the necessary assistance.

Mr. Dillon

I do not press the Parliamentary Secretary for an answer because if I wanted an answer I should have intervened in the debate, but would he consider—and this is a representation I have made to previous occupants of his position—the question as to whether it would not be possible to concern himself to find out the causes of destitution amongst the old and the afflicted in the city, so as to put into operation the existing code of social services where that was desired by the afflicted person and desirable from the social point of view? There are some cases where people are suffering unnecessary destitution because they simply do not know what the social services can provide if they are properly availed of. What I have in mind is some kind of almoner system that would keep an eye on old people who are obviously failing to get from the social services what they could get if they knew how to go about it.

Mr. Kennedy

I shall bear that in mind.

Vote put and agreed to.