Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Nov 1959

Vol. 177 No. 7

Private Members' Business. - Acquisition of Rockingham Estate: Motion.

Mr. McQuillan

I move:—

Since it is held or maintained by the Government that the amount of land available in the country for the relief of congestion is limited, Dáil Éireann is of the opinion that the public interest requires that the Land Commission should acquire the Rockingham Estate, Boyle, County Roscommon.

Since this motion appeared on the Order Paper very good news was conveyed to the people in the area in which this estate is situated. I want to express my sincere appreciation to the present Minister for Lands for the part he played in ensuring that this large estate was held for the purpose of relieving congestion among the Irish people. I regret very much that the present Minister had not the opportunity of using his weight and influence since Fianna Fáil took office a few years ago to ensure that other equally-precious estates were taken over rather than having many of them pass into the hands of aliens. I am convinced that, had there been no change in the Ministry of Lands in recent months Rockingham demesne would, in all probability, have been divided by the owner into four or five lots and sold to the highest bidders. Alternatively, it would have been purchased by an outsider and, in my opinion, that would have been a tragic blow to the hopes of small farmers in the area who for the last 40 years have anxiously waited for Government action in regard to this estate.

The estate has been acquired but I understand that no steps have so far been taken by the Land Commission to acquire the shooting and fishing rights. As Deputies are aware, approximately 40,000 acres of shooting and fishing rights are attached to this estate. These rights, in my opinion, are part and parcel of the estate and consequently should be taken over by the Land Commission with the estate itself. The Land Commission could then, when allocating the farms, vest in the tenants the shooting and fishing rights of the particular area over the land and water that they hold.

It may be suggested in a moment that there is no pressure or demand from the small farmers in the locality for these rights but I suggest to the Minister that demand is bound to come when the land is being divided. I think it would be deplorable to leave the land holders in the position that the shooting and fishing rights which should normally belong to or be vested in them would be acquired by, say, a company composed of solicitors in Dublin or in London, or a group of people who might for commercial exploitation lease the shooting and fishing rights from the present owner, Sir Cecil Stafford King-Harmon.

I feel sure that the former owner of this estate has no objection to the Land Commission acquiring the shooting and fishing rights. Consequently, I think the Minister should ensure that, having gone so far, the Land Commission will go that little step further and take over the estate, lock, stock and barrel.

The Minister is aware that at the moment in Boyle there is a development company which purports to attract tourists to visit the lovely, picturesque beauty spots in North Roscommon and that this development company is interested in leasing the shooting and fishing rights. However desirable it may be to attract tourists, I suggest to the Minister that it would be wrong in principle to allow any such company, in Boyle or any other place, to make a bargain to lease these shooting and fishing rights over the heads of the people who will in future be the vested holders of the land which will be divided.

First of all, let the Minister acquire the shooting and fishing rights and vest them in the tenants. Then if a development company in Boyle desires to lease the shooting and fishing rights from the tenants, that is a matter which can be considered. It might be a desirable step in order to protect the shooting and fishing rights and possible development. We all know that the question of poaching arises wherever people have no respect for the laws in operation with regard to shooting and fishing over certain areas. We all know that the best protectors of fishing and shooting rights are the local people, if they have a sense of responsibility. The best way to give them a sense of responsibility is to make them owners.

I do not think that at this stage the Minister will object to my line of approach on this because I read very recently in the daily papers that the Minister congratulated a number of game associations in County Roscommon for the energetic approach they made towards improving sporting facilities. I feel that the Minister in congratulating those people had in mind the fact that first-class facilities would be available on this estate and that if the individuals concerned were in a position to meet the tenants on the Rockingham estate they would possibly form a good club in their own interests and in the interests of the general public. A good club devoted to shooting and fishing does not need the protection of bailiffs, guards or any other public officials. The best protectors in that regard are the people themselves, who, as owners, will be quite alert to ensure that there is no exploitation or depredation, as far as the sporting rights are concerned.

Now that the decision has been taken to acquire the Rockingham demesne, I should like to impress upon the Minister that there should be no delay in his Department in preparing the necessary scheme. I understand— and I am sure that every Deputy understands—that it takes a considerable time for the Land Commission to prepare a proper and suitable scheme of division. I make this statement now in the hope that it will come to the notice of the people in the locality who, at the moment, seem to have taken the view that the estate should be divided within the next two or three months. I want it to be understood that it will take the Land Commission a considerable length of time to prepare a suitable scheme.

I should be the last to ask the Land Commission to rush the job and make a hash of it, but at the same time I do not want to have this estate put on the long finger for two or three years. We had the experience before with various farms and estates all over the country where the Land Commission set these lands and when the tenants got their allocations, the land in many cases had been made very poor, practically mined in many instances, by speculators and others who had no real interest in conserving the fertility of the soil but whose sole object was to get as much out of the land as they possibly could while the going was good.

While I do not want the scheme itself rushed, I would ask the Minister to see that no time is lost in initiating and preparing the scheme.

Again, I want to express my thanks to him for one of the first actions he did on becoming Minister for Lands. If he keeps up that start, he will be doing a good day's work for the people in rural Ireland who have with patience over the years looked on while the best land in the country passed out of the hands and control of Irishmen.

Mr. Beirne

I second the motion and I should like to be associated with the thanks extended to the Minister, the Land Commission and all concerned for having done a splendid job of work, as far as the Rockingham estate is concerned. It would be a sad thing for the people in the neighbourhood, the congests, the uneconomic holders and others, if this very valuable estate were allowed to pass into the hands of foreigners or some big cartel. I should like to know from the Minister if a certain acreage of these lands has been apportioned for forestry and how much. I should also like to know how much will be available for subdivision or grazing.

I support Deputy McQuillan in his plea for the preservation of the game rights for the tenants who are allocated farms on this estate. I think their claims should receive priority. As a matter of fact, I think their claims go far beyond the claims of any other individual or individuals. I do not know what bargain has been entered into between the former owner of the land and the Land Commission. Perhaps, the game rights and fishing rights of this estate may be vested in the former owners of the lands; perhaps, they may be vested in the Land Commission. I should like to know from the Minister in whom they are vested. With my colleague, Deputy McQuillan, I would make a very special appeal to have those rights vested in the tenants who will become the allottees in time to come.

There is another matter which perturbs me. I live convenient to this estate. It is only a few miles away. Within the past couple of days, cattle were taken in there on the monthly system, for grazing. I did not hear any complaint about the rates charged but I did hear that the number was greatly in excess of the number the land would feed and keep in good condition. I do not know whether that is true or not and I hope the Minister will check on it.

I also heard—again I would ask the Minister to check on it—that lorry loads of cattle from outside the county were taken in. I also heard that further numbers of cattle were booked to be taken in within the next week or fortnight. It would be a sad state of affairs if there were such overcrowding on the estate that people who pay a reasonable rent for grazing during the winter months should have their cattle coming home to them as shadows.

I join with my colleague in asking the Minister to expedite the division of this land. He is aware that in former times lands were held by the Land Commission for what I might call indefinite periods. Remember, land held by the Land Commission deteriorates more rapidly than land held by private individuals because it is not maintained in good heart. I would ask the Minister, in his own interest and in the interests of the allottees who will live on this estate in the years to come, to have these lands divided and allocated as soon as possible. I have seen lands held by the Land Commission for up to 10 years. Such lands were abused. They were let in conacre and all the good was extracted and when the tenants got the land it was practically good for nothing. I hope that sort of thing will not happen again and that this business of letting land for tillage and handing it over to tenants without having been properly re-seeded and manured will not apply to the Rockingham Estate.

In conclusion, I wish again to thank the Minister. The Minister for Transport and Power had something to do with the acquisition of this estate in the initial stages. I include him also in my remarks and congratulate him and the members of the Land Commission who took such an active part in this matter and undoubtedly acquired the land in the shortest possible space of time.

Mr. G. Boland

I, as a Deputy from Roscommon, am very glad that the Rockingham Estate has been acquired. I am surprised, however, that the motion is in order because I thought that Section 6 of the Land Act, 1933, takes away from the Minister the power of determining what lands will be taken over, to whom the land will be given and the price that will be paid for it. Deputy McQuillan quite clearly implied that if there had not been a change of Minister, the land would not have been taken over. Of course, that is not so.

Mr. McQuillan

Of course, it is true.

Mr. G. Boland

As a matter of fact, I am surprised that the motion is in order at all because this is a semi-judicial function. If I had been Minister for Lands, I would have raised that question with the Chair. As the Minister has no function in the matter at all, I do not understand why the matter was allowed to be raised. The Minister has no function whatsoever in the acquisition of land. He is specifically excluded from having anything to do with the taking over of land, the division of land or the fixing of a price for land.

Naturally, I was not going to raise that point before Deputy McQuillan made his speech or before Deputy Beirne spoke, but now that I am on my feet, I want to say that I know that negotiations were in progress when Deputy Childers was Minister for Lands and the only thing outstanding was the price to be paid for it. About eight or nine months ago, I took occasion to protest against the action of the Roscommon County Council in interfering in a matter which purely concerned price. I thought it altogether improper for a public body to interfere in a case where negotiations were in progress between a landowner and the Land Commission. It was a matter of bargaining between them and I thought it was improper for the Roscommon County Council to interfere in a matter of that kind when it was only a question of price.

Again, I say that I am delighted the land has been taken over and I have no doubt whatever that it will be properly divided and that every aspect of the situation there will be fully investigated.

As a former Minister for Lands, I should like to say that, although it is very easy to talk about the Land Commission holding land for a certain number of years, anyone who knows the position as well as I do knows that, in order to make proper division and proper allocation, the Land Commission very often have to wait until they get more land so that they can make a fair re-arrangement. I am doing what the Minister should be doing now. I merely rose to protest against the implication—it was more than an implication; it was practically a charge—that if Deputy Childers had remained as Minister for Lands, these lands would not have been acquired. Surely Deputy McQuillan knows that neither the present Minister nor the previous Minister had any say whatever. It is entirely a matter for a semi-judicial body, the Land Commission.

Acting-Chairman (Mr. Sheldon)

With regard to the question of order, I should point out that the motion does not ask the Minister to do anything. It merely asks the Dáil to express an opinion, so that the question of order does not arise.

Mr. G. Boland

Even at that, the motion relates to a specific matter. However, I have made the point I wanted to make. I wanted to make it clear to the House and to anyone who would bother his head about it that it is not a matter for this Minister or the previous Minister but for the Land Commission.

Mr. J.J. Burke

Most of the things I should like to have said about the acquisition of this estate have been said by my colleagues, Deputy McQuillan and Deputy Beirne. I endorse everything they have said. I should also like to express my appreciation of the action of the Land Commission in taking over this estate. It was long overdue. For quite a long time, in Roscommon, we have been fighting to have this large estate and other estates taken over by the Land Commission and divided amongst very deserving applicants. I would ask the Minister to see to it that there will be no undue delay. He has done very well in getting this estate acquired in the shortest possible time but I would ask him to see that there is no undue delay in the division of the estate, as the land is very badly needed.

I join with Deputy McQuillan and Deputy Beirne in asking the Minister to see that fishing and game rights are vested in the new owners and not let to any outsider.

Mr. Gilbride

I also join in congratulating the Minister concerned and the Land Commission on acquiring this estate. I was amazed to hear Deputy Beirne complaining about cattle being taken in from outside the county. I should like Deputy Beirne and every other Deputy to understand that the people who were evicted from the Rockingham estate are living on the Curlew Hills in Sligo. I hope the Minister or the Land Commission will not be intimidated in taking in cattle or in dividing the estate, when the time comes.

Mr. Kennedy

Some of them are living in Mayo.

Mr. O'Sullivan

In view of the references made by Deputy Boland, this is, indeed, a very interesting and a very profitable discussion which will bring it home to the people that it is the Land Commission who divide lands and who allocate the various divided lands. It has been claimed down through the years by the cohorts of the Party in Government that it was they had the division of land. They have claimed, year in and year out, that it was the Fianna Fáil Deputies supporting a Fianna Fáil Government who were really the power and the influential people in getting land for particular persons, and they demanded their pound of flesh from the smallholders who succeeded in getting such lands.

Mr. Moran

I submit that is out of order, Sir.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I regard the contribution from Deputy Gerry Boland as a major contribution indicating to his colleagues in the back benches and every worker of his Party that that was never done and that it really was a false claim on the part of the Party now in office for over 25 years.

Mr. Kennedy

Every Party.

Acting-Chairman

I shall regard this as a passing reference.

Mr. O'Malley

I should like to correct Deputy O'Sullivan——

Acting-Chairman

I cannot allow this to continue.

Mr. O'Malley

A claim was never made by the Fianna Fáil Party that they were responsible for giving land to anyone. It was made very clear by the previous Taoiseach and by the present Taoiseach that such was the position. But one thing was made abundantly clear—that it was the Fianna Fáil Government that brought legislation into this House whereby the lay Commissioners of the Land Commission could not be intimidated as was the position before we came into power in 1932. Deputy O'Sullivan and his cohorts should be the last people in the world to attribute Tammany Hall tactics to Fianna Fáil. It is Deputy Gerry Boland and men such as he who can recall——

Acting-Chairman

The Deputy must speak to the motion or not at all.

Mr. O'Malley

From 1922 on, people had to run out of the country because of intimidation.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Who ran them out?

Mr. O'Malley

Your crowd.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Not at all.

Mr. O'Malley

One could not get a job unless one took an oath of allegiance to a British King.

Mr. Sherwin

I thought the Civil War was over, according to the Taoiseach.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I am not a Deputy from Roscommon, but I wish to say something on the motion. I fail to see the reason for delay in regard to this motion, since the Land Commission have already acquired the estate. There are many other important matters concerning the Land Commission which could be discussed. Like Deputy O'Sullivan, I think the statement made by Deputy Gerry Boland is worthy of note.

Acting-Chairman

The Chair allowed a passing reference by Deputy O'Sullivan, but will not allow a debate on the matter.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I am not asking for a debate. I should merely like to make this observation on his remarks.

Acting-Chairman

The Deputy may not continue on those lines. He must speak to the motion or not at all.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I cannot make any reference to Deputy Boland?

Acting-Chairman

No, the matter is disposed of.

Mr. G. Boland

I should like to hear what he has to say.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

It is a terrible pity Deputy Boland did not make the same speech when he was Minister for Lands rather than deceive the people into believing that he was giving the land himself.

Mr. G. Boland

I never did in my life. I defy Deputy Flanagan or anyone else to say that I did any such thing.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Everyone knows quite well that Fianna Fáil promised land and that any time the Land Commission divided an estate a Fianna Fáil——

(Interruptions.)

Acting-Chairman

Order!

Minister for Lands (Mr. Moran)

This is one of the few occasions in my many years in this House that any Deputy has had a good word to say about the Land Commission. In so far as that has been said, I welcome it. To deal first with Deputy Beirne, there are approximately 2,300 acres all told in this estate and between 900 and 1,000 acres of that would be for afforestation. I should inform the House that a considerable portion of the estate is at present under timber. We estimate that approximately 1,000 acres of it will be taken up by the Forestry Section of my Department.

The question of game rights has been raised by a number of Deputies including Deputy McQuillan. This motion did not indicate that any such question would be raised but, so far as I know—the Deputy will not hold me to this—the game rights are being acquired by the Land Commission and will be duly vested in the tenants when the estate comes to be divided.

In connection with the division of this estate, Deputies, particularly western Deputies, know quite well that a large operation of this kind cannot be carried out overnight. The House will appreciate that my officials have to interview, not alone local people, but people who may be disemployed as a result of the acquisition of the estate and to consider the possibility of providing migrant holdings. All that will take time, but I can assure the House that I shall see to it there will be no avoidable delay in the division of Rockingham estate.

I should like to take this opportunity of saying that the owners of large estates apparently feel frightened of dealing with the Land Commission. The law provides that the market value must be paid for land. This is one instance where the Land Commission have reached agreement with the owner concerned, and I think I shall be able to announce within the next couple of days that another very large estate in another part of the country will be acquired by agreement. There seems to be some kind of fear abroad that the Land Commission in some way will not be fair to some people in the matter of price. That is not so. Even where we acquire compulsorily, the owner has the right to go to an impartial court and have his compensation assessed. Owners of large estates, instead of turning away from the Land Commission, should turn first to the Land Commission, as their best potential customer. They will get there a fair deal as between themselves and the State. They will get the full value of their land.

I do not know if there is any foundation for the suggestion that too many cattle are being taken in on this estate at the moment. I would be very surprised to learn that that is so, but I shall certainly have the position examined.

Mr. Beirne

Will the Minister please inquire?

Mr. Moran

I certainly shall have the position examined. As I have said, there is a large amount of very valuable timber on this estate. Without any desire on my part to cast any reflection on the people of Roscommon, I want to suggest that local public opinion should ensure that there is no depredation in the interregnum. As far as my own people are concerned, during the emergency a certain amount of county council turf had to be whitewashed so that it could be traced and identified. May I express the hope now that public opinion in the immediate vicinity of this estate will ensure that no vandalism is committed and that people are not a bit careless, shall I say, in helping themselves to State property down there?

Mr. Beirne

I do not think the Minister will have to whitewash the trees.

Mr. Moran

I am quite sure my predecessor, Deputy Childers, was just as anxious to acquire this estate as I have been. The primary aim of the Land Commission is to relieve congestion and, if we can get more goodwill and a better public understanding of the job the Land Commission has to do, we shall make much quicker progress. As I have said, I want to see more owners of large estates coming along and making a deal with the Land Commission.

Mr. Blowick

I was delighted to hear the Minister say that the Land Commission are acquiring the sporting rights on this estate and that these rights will be vested in the allottees. That is a step I could never induce the Land Commission to take. I do not know whether Deputy Boland made any effort in his time to induce the Land Commission to take that step, but I think he did. Sporting rights are as much part and parcel of the land as is the soil itself.

Mr. Moran

I am speaking off the record now, but I understand they are being taken over.

Mr. Blowick

And, if they are taken over, they will be vested in the allottees?

Mr. Moran

Yes.

Mr. Blowick

That is a step in the right direction. I never could understand the process of acquiring land and leaving the game rights on that land to someone else. The land would be given to Mr. X and the game rights to Mr. Y. This led to an inexplicable legal tangle because Mr. X, while he could not claim the rights himself, could refuse permission to Mr. Y, who had bought the rights, to walk his land. I hope that in all future cases the rights will be vested in the allottees along with the land. Indeed, if that could be made retrospective it would be a very welcome development. Deputy Boland got very wroth——

Mr. G. Boland

Not at all. I never get wroth.

Mr. Blowick

——at the fact that this motion was put down. I am one of those who always uphold the judicial functions of the Land Commissioners. I would be one of the first to defend them. When, however, such a huge estate as this is involved, I think it quite proper that its acquisition should be discussed here in the Dáil and that the Commissioners should have, if necessary, the assurance that the House considers that it is in the public interest that such a big slice should be taken over. In the case of ordinary run-of-the-mill acquisitions it would not, of course, be proper to table motions for the purpose of discussing such acquisitions here.

The Minister has told us that very close on half is forestry land. That will provide a very useful forest centre in Roscommon. I am sure there is a great deal of valuable timber in it. I understand the area covers some 900 to 1,000 acres. That will leave approximately 1,300 acres for other purposes.

Deputy O'Malley was very anxious to lead the House to believe that it was Fianna Fáil who gave the Land Commissioners their judicial functions. I would ask the Deputy to go back to the 1871 Act. He will find that in 1871 the Land Commissioners were given their judicial functions. He will also find that the same judicial functions have been and are operative right up to the present time.

Reference was made to the fact that there is a fear of the Land Commission among landowners. That is a very real fear because there is land which would be of great benefit both to the Land Commission and to the ultimate allottees. The fear has a very real foundation. It goes back to the time the landbonds were issued at 4½ per cent. The people who received these bonds in exchange for their lands could not sell for a period of two years in most cases and, when they did go to sell, they found the £100 had to be sold at £82, £83 and £84 in the public market. In my time, the six per cent. land bonds were brought in and those who hold them are today getting the full value on the stock market.

The buying of land through the medium of land bonds is completely outdated. I throw out this hint—the Minister might now consider turning over to cash payment. I know the trouble he will have with his colleague, the Minister for Finance, but there is no use continuing an outdated method of purchasing land.

As I have said, this was a proper motion to table for discussion in this House. The Land Commission might not have liked taking responsibility for acquiring such a huge slice of land. I do not advocate that every acquisition of five, 10 or 100 acres should be discussed here by way of motion. Be that as it may, I think the Land Commission will be grateful to know that they have the backing of this House in acquiring such a huge slice of country.

Mr. McQuillan

I should like to say that I am surprised at Deputy Boland but I do not intend to join with others in criticising his approach to this motion. The Rockingham demesne, as the Minister and others in this House know, was up for sale. This motion, therefore, was put down in order to get an expression of opinion from the public representatives on a matter of public policy: was it desirable to allow one of the large estates left in the west of Ireland to pass into the hands of outsiders? When I say outsiders, I mean non-nationals, perhaps combines, perhaps a large business man. When I use the word "non-national", I do not use it in any derogatory sense. Was it desirable to allow that to happen when, under the Constitution, the Land Commission, if you like, are charged with ensuring that the greatest possible number of Irish families are settled on the land in economic holdings? How can you ensure that that direction is carried out, if the only land available for that purpose is allowed into the hands of those who perhaps already have sufficient?

Consequently, when this land became available, when the owner wanted to part with it, and the Land Commission and the Minister concerned showed no great enthusiasm or anxiety to acquire it, I felt it was in the public interest to put down this motion in order that the House should get an opportunity of expressing their views. There was no question of a dictatorial approach to this. The House could decide to have a vote, if necessary. The motion was not put down on the basis that a precedent was being established which would give the idea to every Deputy that he could put down a motion dealing with every farm of land. I had no such idea in mind.

It was unfair to suggest that the credit cannot to a great extent be given to the Minister and I want to make it quite clear—and whether it is looked upon as a present to the Fianna Fáil Party, I do not care; I am not interested—the Minister, who comes from the congested areas, understands the problem of congestion in the West and he has told us his sympathies lie with the small farmer in the West. When it came to a question of the Land Commission deciding whether or not a certain price should be paid for this farm, undoubtedly, the Minister with his interest in the small farmer was in a position to use, even indirectly, his important status as Minister charged with the responsibility of looking after the congests, to ensure that the necessary financial accommodation would be made available in order that this land would not pass into the type of hands I have suggested.

I repeat my congratulations to the Minister. I am expressing my own opinion and I do so on behalf of the constituents of the county. I appreciate, as do other Deputies, his very encouraging statement that the shooting and sporting rights of this estate will also pass into the hands of the tenants who will be vested.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

May I ask the Minister a question? Will the Minister undertake to repeat outside this House as often as possible the matter which he raised tonight about owners of large estates having a certain amount of fear of approaching the Land Commission, and will he make it clear that the Land Commission will pay the full market value for land and that the Land Commission are the best purchasers of such land?

Mr. Moran

I can assure the Deputy that I made that quite clear tonight but I take this opportunity of doing so again and on any other opportunity available to me I shall repeat the statement. They will always give the full market value for land.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.