Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 May 1960

Vol. 181 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 8—Office of Public Works (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."—(Deputy T. Lynch.)

Mr. Jones

I was referring to the question of arterial drainage and saying we should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary what progress was being made in Limerick. In regard to the Maigue, this river has been under examination by the authorities for some time and has been causing a great deal of trouble. Deputations were received recently from both Limerick and Tipperary on this matter pointing out the urgency of attending to this problem. In regard to the lower Maigue where it reaches the Shannon, there has been a drainage problem there which is causing great hardship to certain farmers just before the river reaches the Shannon. The drainage is effected by the embankments of the Shannon itself in which there were sluices previously but which now are not working satisfactorily.

Last year in this debate questions were asked in regard to these embankments and it was mentioned that the Office of Public Works would be accepting responsibility in future for them. These embankments are still in the possession of the Land Commission. Whether the responsibility for drainage is still that of the Land Commission or whether it has been passed to the Office of Public Works I am not in a position to state. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and the other Deputies for the area know and have drawn to the attention of the responsible authority this problem, which affects quite a large area of land there. We hope that something can be done by some Department—I presume by the Office of Public Works—to alleviate this grave hardship on the people there.

There is one other small matter to which I want to refer. It is in regard to the appropriations-in-aid—two small items there. I notice in No. 5 that there is an anticipated drop in receipts from the sales of farm and garden produce this year over last year. It is to be sincerely hoped that that is not the trend in store for people engaging in the production of farm and garden produce. Perhaps, the Parliamentary Secretary would be able to give us an explanation as to why this drop will occur in the receipts. The other matter is No. 9, which deals with sales of property. There is no reference to the previous year, but there is an item there of £8,000 from the sales of property. The Parliamentary Secretary might tell us how this arises or where the property is that is to be disposed of to realise this sum.

Ancient monuments come within the orbit of this Vote. Generally, the attention paid to them is very praiseworthy. In recent years, there has been a very notable contribution to the pleasure and benefit people get from visiting these places because of the fact that a concise synopsis of the history of the building or ruin has been given. I hope that this will even be enlarged upon. In regard to the Abbey of Askeaton in my constituency, which dates from the 15th century, there seems to be evidence on the building itself of rain coming through. Since very good work has been done in regard to it, perhaps, at some stage the Parliamentary Secretary would draw the attention of the local office to the matter to see whether this might be remedied at very small expense at this stage, whereas later it might require a larger amount.

Deputies from all constituencies are interested in these two Votes. A great amount of valuable work is being done, although, perhaps, the rate of progress is not as great as people would like to see. The provision of work is very desirable. The provision of the amenities which this Department deals with, both in the matter of schools and other public buildings, is something that could provide a great measure of needed employment, particularly in regard to the building trade. It would seem, however, that even the provisions made here for the expenditure of certain sums of money are not always fully availed of. This, I think, is not the fault of the Office itself, but rather is due to the shortage of technical staff in the Department to deal with the problems facing them. I sincerely hope the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to do something in that respect and provide on his establishment the larger technical staff needed for the increased volume of work he has been asked to provide here today. In that respect, I wish him every success.

Mr. N. Lemass

Deputy Wycherley complained this morning that the Board of Works were apparently unaware of the existence of a place called Cork. But for the fact that Leinster House is situated in Dublin, I think I could make the same complaint and say that the Board of Works are not very aware of the existence of Dublin. Admittedly, other Departments, such as the Department of Justice and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, have some building activity in the city carried out by the Board of Works or by contractors employed by the Board of Works.

Deputy Wycherley's complaint was that no drainage whatever had taken place in Cork. Last March 12 months, I raised the question here of the Dodder River. I was informed by the then Parliamentary Secretary that he could not deal with the matter because the Dodder did not drain agricultural land, and that in accordance with the terms of the Drainage Act of 1945, he could drain only agricultural land. I was having a look at the index to the Statutes and I turned over to the description of the various Drainage Acts. We have the following Acts: 1926 (Owenmore), 1927 (Barrow), 1928 (Minor Schemes), 1933 (Barrow), 1943 (Fergus) and 1945 (General). The 1945 Act is listed as a general Drainage Act and not a Drainage Act to cover only agricultural land. I followed that up and had a look at the particular Act. While I know it is not the Minister's duty to interpret the Acts, in the entire Act of 1945 "agricultural land" is not mentioned even once. It refers to "the drainage of lands." I maintain the Parliamentary Secretary has the power under these Acts to deal with the problems caused by the peak flooding of the Dodder.

I accepted the explanation that there was greater hardship and that it was better in the national interest that these agricultural lands be attended to first. However, when the flooding took place in the midlands about a year ago, I went down to have a look at it. It looked almost as bad as it appeared in the newspapers. Several families were staying in Army barracks and so on. I immediately felt that perhaps I had been right in not pushing the question of the Dodder, but talking to the people in the area, I found there did not seem to be as much sympathy for these poor farmers as I anticipated, because, apparently, each year the river floods, they get much greater yields from their lands. Apparently, they are treated quite well during the time their homes are flooded. I do not know whether that is true or not but that is the reaction I got from people in the midlands. Whereas I went down full of sympathy, the local people had very little sympathy at all.

The River Dodder flooding affects principally 160 houses in Orwell Gardens, and other flooding takes place between there and the sea. These houses are occupied almost entirely by middle-class people, tradesmen, labouring men and clerical workers in the main. They have bought these houses on their own and Dublin Corporation are spending the equivalent of one penny in the £ on the rates each year in an effort to relieve somewhat the flooding caused by this river. Dublin Corporation, however, have not got the machinery, and in fact I doubt if they have even the engineering staff available, to take on a major scheme such as the River Dodder involves.

I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to have another look at this question because it is not very encouraging to people to invest their savings in the purchase of their own houses. In fact, some of these people regret very much that they did not take what facilities were available to them under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts and ask Dublin Corporation to house them. If they had, and there was any flooding, then it would have to be taken care of by the Corporation. There are also new houses off the Lower Dodder Road. I have seen the flood marks three or four feet up on the walls, and the floods destroyed new carpets, furniture and pianos, with no effort made by the Government except by way of emergency relief grants to assist in tackling the problem.

I understand that some years ago there was a priority list of rivers drawn up and I had that list a short while ago. I got information from the City Engineer's office that it was announced some considerable number of years ago that the first river which flows through Dublin due to be dealt with is the Tolka. I asked how long would that take and I was told it would probably be 20 to 25 years, and the Dodder is away down below that again. I expect everybody in this House will be dead and buried by the time it comes to be tackled, if that rate of progress is maintained, unless the new Parliamentary Secretary, whom I congratulate on his appointment—he is an energetic man—deals with this problem out of consideration for the hardship caused to residents along the banks of the Dodder.

Just as a matter of interest, if it is Government policy not to deal with any river which is considered to be purely an urban river, I can suggest that the Dodder could possibly be dealt with as a catchment of the River Liffey which, in fact, it is, and in that way we would not interfere with Government policy.

There is not very much I want to say on this Estimate because, as I have said, with the exception of a few buildings, the Board of Works is not very much aware of the presence of Dublin. However, I noticed here today that we had a few large coachfuls of school children in the Visitors' Gallery. They come in on what I understand are C.I.E. educational tours and if the Parliamentary Secretary has any money available, though I do not know where he would get the space, I would suggest to him seriously that he must in some way endeavour to provide facilities for the six or eight buses that park outside in the middle of Kildare Street. Perhaps it could be arranged that they would come in through Government Buildings because the whole of Kildare Street is obstructed when buses park there. That is a type of tour that we must encourage, but at the same time perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would try to get these buses off the street.

Deputy P.J. Burke referred to Skerries harbour. That is in county Dublin but I am very familiar with the problem that exists there. It appears that some years ago the Board of Works carried out improvements to the neighbouring harbour at Loughshinny and whatever went wrong, Loughshinny silted up. The boats moored there were forced to come to Skerries and now we have boats, four and five abreast tied to each other at Skerries and taking bottom twice every twenty-four hours which, I understand, will considerably shorten their life. The fishermen tell me that as a result of constantly taking bottom, they reckon that the boats will be lucky to last while they are making their full repayments on them, and that they will probably be forced to buy new boats as soon as they have paid for their existing ones.

One major piece of land owned by the Board of Works is Phoenix Park. Some months ago, I brought to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretrary, by way of Parliamentary Question, the fact that since the Gough monument had been blown up, its base now constitutes a traffic hazard. While the top was on the pedestal, people driving from the country into the city through Phoenix Park could see a silhouette of the monument, but now it is gone and apparently it is not to be replaced. It was replaced on a couple of occasions, but apparently it will not be again. The Parliamentary Secretary said he would look into the possibility of having reflectors placed around the base of the monument and I should like to hear if that matter has yet been considered. I sincerely believe that the least that should be done is that reflectors should be placed around the base, or an alternative would be to re-site it on the side of the road, or some yards in off the road.

In this regard, the French authorities have taken practically every monument off the centre of their roads and moved them to the sides. Some of these monuments bear no inscriptions. Nobody knows who put them up, why they were put up or what they commemorate; they are retained purely as works of art. I suggest that as far as Phoenix Park is concerned, the best way to deal with the monument is to re-site it in more protected ground, such as the Zoological Gardens. It might then be worth considering the re-erection of the monument because, though we may not have any particular love for the man on the horse, it was a very beautiful statue. I think most people agree it was a work of art, and from that point of view, it would be no harm to have it re-erected on protected ground.

Having mentioned the Zoological Gardens, I should say that I think they are very fine gardens, and we were all very distressed by the vandalism that took place when some of the birds there were killed a short while ago.

Mr. Dillon

When the birds were killed in the Zoo?

Mr. N. Lemass

Sorry; I am mixing up my Zoos. We are glad no vandalism took place in the Zoo.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, Hear!

Mr. N. Lemass

According to regulations, commercial vehicles are not allowed to drive through Phoenix Park and if children and elderly people want to go to the Zoo, they must be left off their buses on the North Circular Road or Parkgate Street and walk up to it. I suggest that an exception could be made in this case, particularly on bank holidays and weekends, to allow C.I.E. buses to run as far as the Zoological Gardens. I think it would be a commercial proposition for the Board of C.I.E. and furthermore would open up the attractions of the Park and make the Zoological Gardens more attractive and more readily available to the citizens and to visitors to the city.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Deputy advert to the propinquity of the North Circular Road Gate? That is quite close to the Zoo.

Mr. N. Lemass

It is a pity when mothers of small children must make a considerable journey to catch a bus, particularly coming back after spending a whole day on their feet in the Zoological Gardens. I know, because I have had the experience. This matter could be dealt with quite easily because commercial vehicles must come in there when animals and goods are being delivered to the Zoo. Therefore, I assume that exception is made in certain cases.

In my opinion, the lighting facilities in the Phoenix Park are completely inadequate. Most of the lighting there is gas lighting. It is certainly very dim and inadequate and I should very much like to see the Parliamentary Secretary doing something to improve it. It is quite common to see cars parked there without lights. Unlike corporation parks, the Phoenix Park can be police patrolled. There have been prosecutions for parking without lights but I suppose that sort of thing will go on for all time. In order to protect people against accidents, the Parliamentary Secretary should endeavour to see that the principal roads at any rate in Phoenix Park are properly lighted.

There is only one other matter to which I should like to refer. The civilian Olympic equestrian team is now training in the south-east of Ireland. I believe that very adequate facilities have been put at their disposal but the difficulty has arisen that a great number of our leading show jumping riders and dressage riders cannot travel to these facilities without giving up their employment in the city. I raised this question briefly with the Minister for Defence on his Estimate with a view to seeing if facilities might be made available in McKee Barracks and he informed the House that, unfortunately, the facilities there are fully utilised at the moment.

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would investigate the possibility of making facilities available to a civilian Olympic equestrian team—it is too late for the 1960 Olympic Games to do anything like that—for the 1964 Games because it is generally agreed that our bloodstock, show jumpers and racehorses, are a very important industry. We should do everything in our power, and the Government should co-operate to the maximum possible extent, to ensure that when we send horses and riders abroad, we send only the very best we have and let them be a constant advertisement for the very fine bloodstock produced in this country.

Mr. O'Sullivan

When Deputy Lemass was speaking, I had before me the list of the proposed new works, alterations and additions for 1960/61. With regard to his complaint that Dublin did not appear to be well served by the Office of Public Works, may I say that I notice some items that are strictly of value to this capital city? There is a proposal in the present year to spend £7,500 on the improvement of the plant house at Aras an Uachtarain and, in the entire list to be financed out of £116,520, £107,520 is scheduled for expenditure in the city of Dublin. That is not a bad contribution towards the city from the Parliamentary Secretary's Vote.

I appreciate that any Deputy would desire to secure from the Vote the maximum amount for his constituency or environs, but I consider that is a fairly formidable contribution towards works in Dublin by one Department and, no doubt, there are items in other Estimates which will be of value to the city.

I should like to join the other Deputies who have spoken in extending felicitations to the Parliamentary Secretary. He has not been long enough in office as yet to prove what he is capable of but I am sure we wish him the best.

This is a Vote in which we are glad to see an increase in expenditure. Whatever criticism we may offer about increases in expenditure generally, this is a Vote, particularly in respect of arterial drainage where it is very desirable to spend, not alone as much as we have been spending in the past but, if possible, more. It is unfortunate, however, that under some subheads quite a substantial proportion of the increased money allocated is being swallowed up by increased salaries and wages.

It is a couple of years since we pointed out that the Government were taking a foolish action in withdrawing food subsidies and in thinking that they could cut off from the expenditure of the State the moneys then being spent in that direction. We were told by the Minister for Finance at the time that he would ensure that that money was really saved but we have this recurring, this echoing expenditure, increasing all the time in the effort that the Government have been compelled to make to compensate all the State personnel, everybody engaged in public works and elsewhere, for the impact on the value of their wages and salaries of that Government action.

This is another echo of what has resounded from the Government's action at that time. If there was to be an increase, we would have wished that increase to be devoted in its entirety to a more rapid extension of the operations under this Vote.

In the Parliamentary Secretary's speech, there was no reference whatever to proposed works which would cater for the operations formerly carried out under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. It was understood here from a statement made by the Minister for Local Government in a discussion in the House before we adjourned for Christmas last that there would be alternative schemes whereby work formerly carried out under that very important scheme would in future be carried out in conjunction with the Office of Public Works. We have no indication that the Government have prepared a substitute scheme for the carrying on of this work. That is regrettable.

I do not advocate that the money for such works should be found under this Vote now or at any time in future because that would mean taking up the time of engineers, overseers and others in the employment of the Office of Public Works which should be devoted to their present occupations. Personnel are available in local authorities, particularly engineers who, because of the modernisation of road maintenance and improvement, would have more time to devote to the supervision of Local Authorities (Works) Act schemes. I earnestly recommend, through the Parliamentary Secretary, to the Minister and the Government, the resumption of operations under that scheme because if it is thrown over on this Office, it would mean taking up the time of engineers and other personnel that should be concentrated on what has been traditionally the work of that Office.

In the absence of any reference whatever to what was regarded as impending, we may accept that that has now been shelved and that the argument on which the Minister for Local Government escaped at the time of the Private Members' Motion did not have much validity.

I note that there has been some reduction in the number of new schools built and the number of schools improved last year over the previous year. I may remark that the work that was carried out the previous year was work that was prepared in advance of the advent of this Government. I trust that the hopeful statement of the Parliamentary Secretary will be fruitful and that there will be an examination of this work, because I know of no more important work in which the Office of Public Works is engaged than the provision of new schools and the improvement of existing schools. It is a matter of grave concern that we have suffered the children of this country to attend schools that would be a disgrace to any civilised community. That is work in which considerable progress has been made and which should be expedited as quickly as possible.

I note also that there is, again, a provision of £20,000 for the projected Garden of Remembrance at Parnell Square. I am glad to see that work has now progressed beyond the point at which there was considerable political acrimony in respect of it and criticism of the fact that more progress had not been made in earlier years in the provision of this projected Garden of Remembrance. No doubt the reasons and factors which operated in previous years during the approach to this problem have also had their impact on the present Government.

In relation to Kilmainham Jail, I should like to welcome the fact that it is proposed that the work in this regard will be done by voluntary workers. That is a novel idea, and I hope it will meet with the success it merits and be an example in the carrying out of similar operations in other parts of the country. Infinite compensation by way of a sense of achievement will be given to those who participate in that work.

I note that favourable comment is made on the advances in arterial drainage and, quite rightly, tribute is being paid to the fact that the establishment of the Central Workshop Stores had a considerable part to play in that progress. One can recall, certainly with some misgivings, the unfortunate campaign that was instituted when the previous Government decided to establish the Central Workshop Stores. It is now recognised that their action at that time was, certainly, a major contribution.

Mr. J. Brennan

It was not the establishment of the workshop at that time; it was the abandonment of the previous scheme.

Mr. O'Sullivan

At any rate, is it not well that the Parliamentary Secretary and the Government should put on record their appreciation of the wisdom of the establishment of that workshop and the fact that, had it not been done then, arterial drainage would be many many years awaiting completion?

Mr. J. Brennan

I do not agree.

Mr. O'Sullivan

The fact that it was done at that time was certainly the greatest factor in the launching of arterial drainage.

Mr. J. Brennan

I do not agree.

Mr. O'Sullivan

At that time, an Act was in existence under which there had been no operations and certainly that was a wise thing to have done at that time. It was of infinite value to the many needs of the country and it is fine to see that now put on record. Reference is also made here to the fact that in relation to appropriations-in-aid, some moneys have been acquired from sales of property. In that respect, I emphasise to the Parliamentary Secretary the desirability of adequate advertisements on occasions on which such property is for sale. I know that on a recent occasion somebody made a profit to the extent of 200 per cent on his investment in property bought from the Office of Public Works at such a sale.

Mr. J. Brennan

It was not advertised?

Mr. O'Sullivan

It was advertised in a very meagre fashion. It was a very small advertisement. I shall say again it was not a small item, but an item which ran into hundreds of pounds, and into thousands of pounds, for the person who was cute enough to avail of the opportunity. I agree it is something which could happen to anybody and I just mention it as something to be watched in the future.

Mr. J. Brennan

Would the Deputy give particulars?

Mr. O'Sullivan

I shall give particulars. In relation to arterial drainage, I want to say that the reluctance of the Board of Works down through the years to embark on the drainage of tributaries is understandable, because it might aggravate flooding in the lower reaches of the catchment areas. With the advancement of the scheme, I appeal to him to re-examine that position because, as the more necessary schemes are dealt with, he will find there are parts of the country where the main catchment area would not suffer, except to a very small extent possibly, from the carrying out of the very necessary drainage operations on the tributaries in such areas.

I have in mind one tributary in my own constituency, the Awbeg tributary of the Blackwater. Anyone who knows the area, will appreciate that the affected area is excellent land and it would be of great value locally if it could be properly utilised. The losses of crops, and the damage by flooding to the grasslands, have been considerable, year in and year out, down through the years. That is one tributary that could well be examined with a view to carrying out some drainage operations before the main catchment area is affected, because we have never had any serious evidence of the aggravation of flooding on the lower reaches of the parent river, the Blackwater. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to look into that matter and not to defer any action, whatever, in relation to such areas until such time as the entire catchment area comes for survey and later development.

The fact is that there would appear to be a limited area, in relation to the entire catchment area, which is very seriously affected, but it is of extreme importance to the farmers who have to pay high rates on very highly valued lands which are subject to perennial flooding. The best argument I can advance in support of attention being paid to such an area is the fact that the members of Cork County Council, from regions as far distant as the Beara Peninsula, when they realised the importance of drainage in this area, co-operated by increasing the grant from the rates in order to maintain some freedom in the river. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary, therefore, sympathetically to examine the possibility of extending some attention to this area, and others, if there are similar instances, prior to making any inroads on the larger catchment area.

When Deputy Palmer was speaking here in relation to the siting of new schools, he made a very pertinent point in relation to the provision of playing grounds. We all know, as we drive throughout the country, the necessity of being on the look-out for children coming to or leaving the national schools. The siting of playing grounds quite often would not only provide the necessary arena for them to engage in worthwhile sports, but would also ease and minimise the danger of accidents to them when they are forced on to the public roadways.

I shall give an example. In my native town of Millstreet, when a site was being sought for a new school, it was decided to go to the local town park. That meant that these children, during their play hour, had the facility of the public park without being compelled to traverse the public streets and roadways. If sites such as that could be found in other areas, I think it would be a solution. Where there are not public town parks, then I think careful consideration should be given to the acquisition of sufficient land with a school to give those children the freedom which is essential to them, if they are not to suffer accident or worse during play hour or during other hours when they are not in class.

Before the Parliamentary Secretary concludes, we should like him to clear the air in relation to his intentions and in relation to the Minister for Local Government and the Government in respect of the resumption of operations under the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

Micheál Mac Cárthaigh

Do bhi iongnadh mór orm nuair a chuala mé an Teachta O Súilleabháin a rá go raibh laghdú ar uimhir na scoileanna náisúnta a tógadh anuraidh. Dúirt sé go raibh laghdú beag ins an uimhir. Nuair a bhí an Runai Pharlaiminte annseo anuraidh do gheall sé, comh fada agus is cuimhneach liom, go dtógfaí níos mó scoileanna i mbliana ná mar a togadh anuraidh. Ní raibh mé annseo inniú nuair a rinne sé an réamh-chaint ar an Meastachán seo ach is cosúil go bhfuil an ceart ag an Teachta Ó Suilleabhán ins an méid a dúirt sé faoi sin. Ní raibh fhios agam-sa go mbeadh laghdú ar an uimhir a tógadh agus tá súil agam go bhfuil cúis mhaith leis sin agus go bhfuil míniú ag an Rúnaí Pharlaiminte len a chois.

With reference to the question of national schools, it has been mentioned by Deputy O'Sullivan to my surprise that there was a decrease this year in the number of national schools completed and renovated—a reduction in the number of new national schools completed and old national schools renovated. I understood from the Parliamentary Secretary last year that it was proposed to provide an increased number of national schools this year.

Mr. O'Sullivan

In fairness, an increased amount of money has been spent within the year but the number is less.

Mr. Carty

He has an alibi so. I also agree with him that as far as possible, when the Office of Public Works provides a new school, a playing pitch should be attached to it. In many areas it is extremely difficult to get the minimum amount of land for siting a national school but where the land is readily available, playing fields should be provided.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Perhaps the Minister for Education should have something to say on that.

Mr. Carty

Possibly I am a little irrelevant but I think those who went before me were equally irrelevant. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle was not in the Chair at that time. There is a difficulty, of course. If the playing pitch is too far away from a national school, questions of supervision and insurance of the pupils arise. They have a break usually of half an hour in rural schools in the middle of the day during which period one or other of the teachers normally has to supervise games and play while the other teachers are having their mid-day meal. If the playing pitch is not in close proximity to the school, a great difficulty arises because the time factor is all important.

I would also impress upon the Parliamentary Secretary the necessity of having adequate play shelters attached to the national schools. No manager should be allowed to proceed with plans that do not provide for playing shelters for the children. That is important in bleak areas where the children have no shelter, where the aspect of the school does not lend itself to adequate shelter and they are exposed to the wind and weather during the inclement parts of the year. Many children get colds and have to stay away from school because of the hardships they have to endure during playtime. It would be in the interests at least of the health of the children to make sure that no school is allowed to be provided without these shelters.

I have recently seen a number of new national schools which were erected by the Office of Public Works and where there was no provision for running water or water closets. We are living in the second half of the 20th century. No school manager should be allowed to build a national school that does not provide these amenities. I should use a stronger word than "amenities"—they are necessities. We hear references in this house to piped water schemes, to sewerage schemes and so on. The national schools are supposed to be examples of everything that is desirable. If they have not these services, it is very hard to convince the children of today who are the citizens of tomorrow that these are necessaries and that they should have them in their own homes.

Recently the county council of which I am a member discussed the question of non-public roads. The Office of Public Works, through rural improvements schemes, provides grants for the reconstruction and repair of these roads. Oftentimes a number of small farmers band together and raise a contribution which they forward to the Office of Public Works. In due course, a good job of work is done on the road. Have I left the road?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I feel the Deputy is getting away from the Estimate. The question of roads will arise on the next Estimate.

Mr. Carty

I shall return to that subject later. If I must leave the road, I must certainly go on to the question of drainage. During the past year, I was on a number of deputations received by the Parliamentary Secretary in connection with drainage in my constituency, with particular reference to the River Shannon and its tributaries. I should like to know at this stage what progress, if any, has been made with the preliminary surveys that were to be carried out on the Shannon catchment area.

Mr. J. Brennan

The surveys will conclude this year.

Mr. Carty

The reason I am interested in the Shannon is that until some decision is taken in relation to its drainage, which is a very big problem, the tributaries of the Shannon and, in particular, the Suck cannot be catered for. The hold-up is not due to any action taken by the Parliamentary Secretary or his predecessor. It arises out of a recommendation by Colonel Rydell who carried out a survey there some years ago and who advised the Government of the day that no drainage should be carried out on the tributaries of the Shannon unless and until the Shannon itself had been dealt with.

I believe that was a just recommendation. The Government at the time accepted the recommendation and the Government who succeeded them honoured it, but it is, of course, very hard to convince the people in my own area that it was a just recommendation because they cannot understand why the drainage of the River Suck cannot be proceeded with and they cannot understand why the flooding of their own lands which adjoin the River Suck must continue until such time as the River Shannon is drained.

I am delighted that the preliminary survey of the River Shannon is nearing completion. Of course, I expect it will be a long time yet before any concrete proposal for the drainage of the Shannon comes before the House. Until that time comes, the people affected by the flooding of the River Suck must, it appears, bide their time.

We were told in the course of the year that the Board of Works might be prepared to carry out a certain number of intermediate drainage schemes. As far as my constituency is concerned, I have not yet heard of any survey having been made in connection with any of these intermediate drainage catchment areas. I drew the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to two rivers in my area that might possibly lend themselves to treatment under a scheme of this type.

I mentioned in particular the Gort River. This river rises on the borders of Galway and Clare and flows through the town of Gort. Eventually, it enters the sea at Kinvara. In the course of its journey from the Clare-Galway border to Kinvara, it disappears in some places. Unfortunately, it does not disappear in Gort. Every time we have a heavy flood, the Automobile Association and the Galway County Council have to plaster diversion notices within four and five miles of Gort on either side. As Gort is on the main road from Shannon Airport to Galway, this causes serious inconvenience to all kinds of traffic. The flooding on this occasion lasted for over two months. It was very serious as compared with the previous years and great damage was done to property and land in the town of Gort and the surrounding district. There was a grave dislocation of business in one of the principal streets of the town.

I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to give urgent and sympathetic consideration to the provision of an intermediate drainage scheme to relieve flooding in that area. I have been in correspondence with him, and indeed, he was most helpful, but, owing to the nature of the difficulties—the swallow-holes and the disappearance of the river in places—he did not hold out much hope of an early scheme.

There is also another river in my area that could readily lend itself to treatment under one of those schemes, the Oranmore River, which, I think, could be quite easily done as an intermediate drainage scheme. If drained, it would give great relief to the farmers in the Oranmore area and would relieve hundreds of acres of first-class arable land of serious flooding.

There are just two more points I wish to deal with. A survey has been completed on the Killimor catchment area in Galway. We were told that the scheme held a high place on the priority list. The survey was carried out over three and a half years ago and the engineers with their equipment left the district over two years ago. We were confident that the plans would be exhibited and that the scheme would start early this year. I asked the Parliamentary Secretary on 4th November, 1959, in Volume 177, column 618 of the Official Report, when approximately the drainage of the Killimor river catchment, county Galway, under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945, would be commenced. He informed me that the design of a scheme for the drainage of the Killimor catchment was in hands, but, pending completion of the design and compliance with the requirements of the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945, as regards exhibition and confirmation, it was not possible to say when works might be commenced.

That was last November. I hope, when he is replying, he may be able to give me more definite information in regard to the commencement than he was in a position to give me last November.

The late Deputy Beegan, when he was Parliamentary Secretary, drew up a priority list and he informed this House and the Galway Deputies that another drainage scheme, the Dunkellin drainage scheme, occupied a high place on the priority list. He was succeeded by Deputy Bartley, now Minister for the Gaeltacht, who also gave us the same information. Luckily, they were both Galwaymen. We have a Donegalman in charge of the Board of Works at present and I hope that the importance of the Dunkellin drainage area has not escaped him and that he will be in a position to give us some information about that scheme as well.

I am particularly interested in these two drainage schemes because both were drained under the 1924 Drainage Act. At least, I should say they were supposed to have been drained. For a number of years, the people who were supposed to have benefited from these two schemes had to pay a special rate to the Galway County Council for the maintenance of the drainage works. The council have been under an obligation for a number of years to keep those two drainage areas in the same condition as they were in when handed over to them in 1926 but the council, I regret to say, are neither legally obliged nor in a position to do anything more than give the two rivers a slight run-over every year. The slight run-over, I am afraid, is not of much use, but they vote a certain amount of money. That is expended on different stretches of both rivers each year.

Under the 1945 Act, the farmers, the supposed beneficiaries, were relieved of making the contribution. The council were not relieved of the obligation to maintain the rivers in the condition in which they were handed over to them by the Board of Works in 1926. Having regard to these considerations they occupy such a position now they should I believe receive special attention from the Board of Works. Preliminary work— the surveys and so on—have been carried out on the Killimor catchment area and I hope it will be possible to exhibit the plans and start work on it soon and also that it will be possible to start a survey of the Dunkellin catchment area and that the strict priority laid down by the late Deputy Beegan when he was Parliamentary Secretary will be rigidly adhered to.

Captain Giles

As we are all aware, the Board of Works spend a vast amount of money in many areas. We know that most of that money is spent wisely and that before they embark on any scheme they give it very careful consideration. Their activities cover a wide field, drainage schemes, Garda barracks, schools and so on. In regard to schools in my county, reasonable progress is being made and a splendid type of school is being built. Everyone seems to be satisfied—the managers, the pupils and the teachers—that the work is well done. More consideration, however, will have to be given to the building of those schools. In my county quite a number of migrants have arrived from the west of Ireland and by the time a new school is built seven or eight new families may have come into that area. In some areas in the last five or six years, five or six large migrant families have arrived and are overcrowding the schools with the result that now an extra school is required. I hope that when schools are being built in future each Department involved will be consulted so that the mistake will not be made of building too small a school. It is my belief that every new school should have an extra school room.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Department of Education.

Captain Giles

I shall turn then, to drainage which is a problem which concerns practically every county. My own county is one which needs urgent attention. We have very flat, low-lying areas and most of the bogs in central Ireland are drained into the county. We are very concerned to make sure that the River Boyne is kept on the priority list, as it is at present. I hope that the drainage of the Boyne will be carried out with all possible speed. A survey has been carried out for over two years and I think it is now completed.

About five years ago I asked when the drainage of the Boyne would take place and I was told that it would take place in five years' time. A year ago I asked the same question and again I was told that it would take place in about five years. I do not like that. There is no reason why it should be put on the long finger. There is a vast amount of virgin soil destroyed or overrun by water between Edenderry and Drogheda and we cannot afford to have that type of soil neglected. That land is too valuable to be lost. The farmers have been suffering over a number of years because of this flooding. Near where I live a small drainage scheme was carried out on the Rye river at Kilcock under the inter-Party Government. It did an immense amount of good because prior to that the village of Kilcock was completely surrounded by water for two or three days every two or three years. The roads were flooded and tractors had to be used to pull cars through the water. We are now in the happy position that Kilcock is not flooded and several hundred acres have been reclaimed and are being worked by the farmers. The land reclamation programme is going ahead there at full speed. That was only a small scheme but it shows what a large scheme like the Boyne drainage scheme could achieve.

In another area near Dunboyne there is a problem which has existed for many years but which county Meath cannot tackle if Dublin County Council does not tackle it also. I heard Deputy Burke speak about the same river. We maintain that the backwater from Dublin is keeping the water in County Meath, so there is a problem between Meath and Dublin which must be solved jointly. I hope that this will be put on the priority list for the minor drainage schemes. I do not know whether it is the Tolka or the Liffey which is involved but work should be started at the Dublin end and continued back through Clonee. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary, who is an energetic man and who put up many proposals to the Board of Works before he became Parliamentary Secretary, to tackle this problem now that he is in control.

Mr. J. Brennan

I shall give the Deputy a day in Dunboyne some day next week.

Captain Giles

Over the past 10 or 15 years a huge area of bogland in the centre of the country has been drained into our county and all the sediment and dirt comes rushing into the tributaries of the Boyne, the Blackwater and the Dee and a few others. These rivers and the Boyne are flooded very quickly. In the past when the bogs were not drained the area was like a sponge and could hold the water but now many acres of land between Kildare and Meath are flooded, land which if the rivers were drained would be perfectly good land. It is therefore important that we get ahead with the drainage as soon as possible.

I was glad to hear that Kilmainham Jail is being taken over and that private individuals of the right type are proposing to make it into a national monument of which we can be proud. That is what we want, public spirited men to do the right thing in the right way. I am confident that they will convert the jail into something of which we can be proud. For many years I have been listening to proposals in regard to this jail but nothing has been done. The same applies to the Garden of Remembrance. I am glad that we shall have a Garden of Remembrance worthy of the people who died for this country and which will be our national memorial to those who made the great sacrifice, a memorial in which we can pay tribute to the living and the dead.

In conclusion, I pay tribute to the Board of Works for the good work they do. I do not think I ever saw work that was badly done by them. They may go slowly but that is only right as they handle a vast amount of money for many types of schemes and they should not rush headlong into a scheme without looking at the pros and cons. I believe they do, and that when carrying out a scheme, they do it in a way that is a credit to themselves and the country. We have splendid schools and Garda barracks, well planned and laid out, representing money well spent. Under the Board of Works, we get fair value for our money, even though we may have to wait a few years longer than we expect.

Mr. Moloney

First, I want to refer to the progress made with arterial drainage and to say that I am sure Deputies on all sides are satisfied that the progress for the past nine or ten years was very satisfactory. We have broken the back of that problem now, even though there are still many important rivers to be drained. If the present rate of progress continues, and possibly improves to some extent each year, we can be optimistic and hope that the main problem of arterial drainage will be solved in the next 25 years.

There is a problem of minor drainage which seemed to be nobody's responsibility up to now. I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that he should endeavour to give this problem his attention as soon as possible. The damage done through lack of minor drainage facilities is enormous. Much discussion has taken place on the problem here in connection with the suspension of the Local Authorities (Works) Act and opinions were expressed largely in general agreement as to the necessity for minor drainage. I have always felt that minor drainage is a problem that could not be tackled in a piecemeal fashion. My view is that the schemes heretofore in operation were largely ineffective. They may have cured some local requirement but in many cases the cure was worse than the disease because other problems were created and much damage done in other areas arising from remedial measures taken at the sources of small streams.

The time has arrived when all drainage operations should be carried out by one office, preferably the Office of Public Works. It seems to be equipped, not alone with the personnel but also with the experience, which is very important in drainage matters, to deal with the problem in a comprehensive way. These minor drainage schemes have a rather important bearing on major schemes which are being taken care of at the moment. Quite a lot of local drainage operations could be attended to during the period of operation on the general drainage now being carried out in several areas. Minor drainage problems have been discussed here many times in the past 12 months—on the Adjournment, arising out of replies to Dáil Questions and on other occasions. Therefore, it is not necessary to elaborate unduly on them at this stage and I shall be content to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to try to give immediate attention to the problem so that some work may be put in hands in connection with minor drainage during the coming year.

My second point—I think it has already been dealt with by several speakers—concerns coast erosion. For some reason, not explained by people who should be competent to do so, the damage done by coast erosion in the past couple of years was very considerable. In parts of my constituency whole villages and adjoining areas have been seriously threatened due to an abnormal amount of damage particularly during the winter as a result of coast erosion. In the Ballyheigue area in particular that has been the case. The local committee set up to focus attention on the problem made representations to the Parliamentary Secretary some months ago and sought some assistance in the form of a grant and advice with a view to tackling the problem.

The local authority seems to come into this up to now and a good deal of time and effort has been wasted because no single authority can be pinned down to accept responsibility for this work. To what extent the local authority is involved I find it hard to understand. It appears that unless the roads or the property of a local authority are in danger of being damaged the local authority should not be expected to come into it at all. I know there is legislation in that connection but unfortunately no provision is made under that legislation or otherwise to deal with problems of that kind.

In other parts of the country I know there are problems of a similar nature and perhaps they are as urgent, or even more urgent, than the one I have mentioned but it is right that the Office of Public Works should endeavour to take responsibility to some extent in this matter. The problem is rather extensive and cannot be remedied overnight but if the damage that has taken place in many areas is to continue at the same rate for any length of time I am afraid it will be too late to take corrective measures in the next six or eight months. I seriously suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should give the matter his immediate attention. He might find it possible now to obtain funds from the Central Authority to enable either his own organisation or the local authorities to take action on this problem.

There is still much complaint throughout the country about what is described as the undue delay that is taking place, it is alleged, in the architects' section of the Office of Public Works in regard to plans and specifications for new schools. Evidently, the Minister for Education decides as to the necessity for schools on the representations of the managers or local interests concerned. When that stage is reached and agreement secured in regard to the local contribution and so on the application is passed to the architects section of the Office of Public Works. It is appreciated that the section is dealing at the moment with a large number of problems and it is only reasonable to expect that there should be a fair amount of delay. The delay which takes place, whether or not it is due to pressure because of the large volume of work in the section, is something we shall have to try to eliminate. A way out of the difficulty for the Office of Public Works might be to farm out work of that kind to architects in private practice. They are well equipped to undertake work of that kind and I can see no objection to availing of their services. If the Parliamentary Secretary could see his way to adopting that suggestion, even as a temporary measure, it might help in clearing some of the arrears in his office. There are a number of schools on the stocks at the moment and it is important that we should move a little more quickly in their construction than in the past. The greatest delay occurs between the time of sanction and the time the contract is placed. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will take note of the point and deal with the matter in the manner I suggest.

Mr. J. Brennan

Private architects, of course, take charge of the building of schools.

Mr. Lindsay

A review of the various items of expenditure in this Vote shows a fair distribution as between town and country in regard to the money made available not alone for buildings of general and particular utility but also for the purpose of providing employment. That is particularly true of the city areas as compared with rural areas.

I do not think too high a tribute can be paid to the Board of Works for the manner in which they design and execute their buildings. Their work is excellent. If anything can be said against the Office of Public Works, it is perhaps in regard to the delay that occurs in some instances. It should be remembered, however, that very often delay is desirable in order to achieve the best possible results.

On every Estimate for the Board of Works and the Department of Education, since I came into this House, I have made it quite clear that, in the acquisition of sites for schools, particular attention should be paid to the acquiring of sufficient ground to enable provision to be made for recreational facilities for the children attending these schools.

With regard to piers and harbours, I am somewhat perplexed, I must confess, as to where actual responsibility lies. Under this Vote we have major harbour schemes for which £100,000 is required in the current financial year. I notice that part of that money will be spent in Killybegs, in the Parliamentary Secretary's own constituency. Lest he might be accused of favouritism, let me say that the remainder will be spent in the neighbouring constituency of East Donegal at Greencastle. Having regard to all we heard in the past, when Galwaymen, in succession, occupied the Parliamentary Secretary's post, I suppose it is a very natural evolution in the allocation of these moneys.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The decision as to the allocation of such moneys would, I take it, lie with the Minister for Lands and Fisheries.

Mr. Lindsay

In collaboration, of course, with the Department of Finance. I am not so much concerned with the major schemes as I am with the smaller piers and harbours, for which there is a figure of £9,120 required in the current financial year.

I want now to deal with a specific instance. As far back as February, 1957, through the combined efforts of Fisheries and the Department of Finance sanction was given, through the Board of Works, for the erection of a slip at Blacksod in County Mayo in the constituency of North Mayo. That slip has not yet been built.

Mr. J. Brennan

I would remind the Deputy that we shall have an opportunity of dealing with that matter, probably more adequately, on Vote 10.

Mr. Lindsay

Employment and Emergency Schemes?

Mr. J. Brennan

Yes.

Mr. Lindsay

I should like to make the point I want to make in relation to the matter now.

Mr. J. Brennan

I am not suggesting the Deputy is out of order.

Mr. Lindsay

From time to time, over the past two years, I have asked questions about this. While I addressed my questions to the Minister for Finance, they appeared on the Order Paper for answer by the Minister for the Gaeltacht. From my own experience, and from what I have heard the Minister say himself in that particular area in relation to piers and harbours and kindred subjects, I am somewhat puzzled at the metamorphosis that takes place. I have heard the Minister state that he has no function whatsoever either in the allocation of money or in the sanctioning of anything; all he can do is urge and recommend, and consider things for recommendation, and such like pious aspirations. Why then, when a question is put down in relation to these matters to the Minister for Finance, does it appear on the Order Paper for answer by the Minister for the Gaeltacht, who, when talking to the people in the Gaeltacht, carefully avoids any responsibility for these matters?

So far as public works and buildings are concerned, we shall have in my constituency one very clear-cut programme, namely, the erection of an employment exchange at Achill Sound. That is in the heart of an area—I referred to this last week in the Budget debate—in which 143 families have closed their homes and gone to England, Scotland, or America within the past three years. What then is the purpose of this employment exchange? Is it an acceptance that those remaining families will in the future be still dependent upon unemployment assistance or unemployment benefit?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is getting away from the Estimate. The Parliamentary Secretary has no responsibility for a decision to erect an employment exchange in any part of the country. He acts as the agent of the Minister who so decides and, in those circumstances, he cannot be held answerable for the reason.

Mr. Lindsay

Might one not urge upon the agent to refer back to his principal the foolishness of such a project having regard to the conditions that exist?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The matter would be relevant on another Estimate.

Mr. Lindsay

We shall have it on another Estimate then, and on any other relevant Estimate. Mention has been made of arterial drainage. I notice Government speakers have abandoned the term used in the Parliamentary Secretary's speech—intermediate rivers—and are resolutely referring to such rivers as "minor rivers". I do not know whether there is anything deliberate in that or whether it is designed to enable it to be said hereafter that this intermediate river project envisaged in the Parliamentary Secretary's speech is something that can be substituted on platforms for the Local Authorities (Works) Act schemes. I do not think that is what the Parliamentary Secretary meant and I should not like it to be understood otherwise than in the manner in which he meant it and what it actually means.

We had Deputy P.J. Burke talking about the provision of work by the Office of Public Works. The Office of Public Works does its best having regard to the money provided for it to allocate to the various places. Mention has been made of the sales of property by the Board of Works. I know of recent sales and I hasten to exonerate the Commissioners or any officials there from negligence in this regard or any partisanship. It is a matter, on the other hand, for which the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister must be fully responsible. I know of an instance where a certain piece of machinery was purchased for £500 and, within two days, sold by the fortunate purchasers for £1,750, a profit of 250 per cent. All that was due to two things: one, that the advertising was inadequate, and the other, that the preliminary work of salesmanship prior to the actual sale itself was far from the realm of competence. However, it is the people's money and if that is the way it is to be used, I suppose the people themselves will have to answer for it at some time.

Deputy Lynch referred to item 5 on this list of works, under the heading of Department of Finance, which is entitled "Busts and Portraits of National Leaders." From this, it appears that £1,500 has been expended in the financial year ended 31st March, 1960, and a further £1,000 is necessary for the financial year 1960/61, certainly provisionally. I want to know, and I am sure the House and the country would like to know, of what leaders these busts are, who are the subjects of the portraits, who are the people who executed either the busts or the portraits and what was the amount paid for each of these items.

At a time when everybody is feeling the pinch, in whatever walk of life he may be—I think everybody knows how difficult the times are in spite of the wonderful descriptions given of them by Government speakers—it is certainly not opportune to be laying out money for such items even though, proportionately speaking, from the point of view of the Exchequer, the sum involved is very small. Nevertheless, the people would like to know the details. Certainly, I should like to know them and I am sure the House would like to know them, too. Beyond that, there is very little scope for further discussion on this matter. In conclusion, I might say I am particularly pleased by the vast amount of work which is contemplated on buildings devoted to Agriculture, Land and Fisheries.

Mr. O'Reilly

I was somewhat disheartened by what the last Fianna Fáil speaker had to say about the completion of our drainage programmes. He said that although the Office of Public Works are moving rather slowly, he felt they would complete the drainage programmes in 25 years—a quarter of a century. A good many of us who are here to-day will be flapping our wings in the great hereafter within the space of the next 25 years.

I am particularly interested in the drainage of the River Erne. On quite a number of occasions, I asked the Parliamentary Secretary questions about the matter. Each time, I was told it was under consideration. I quite appreciate the difficulty in relation to two Governments being concerned. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to use his good offices to bring the two Governments together on this matter of vital importance.

We have been told that the Northern Government have done their part up to a certain point and that, on our part, we have taken levels. Therefore, the work should be practically ready to commence. No major drainage scheme or indeed any drainage scheme has taken place in county Cavan. All minor drainage and other works have been hampered by the fact that the River Erne has not been drained. County Cavan has suffered very seriously from emigration. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to tackle the problem of the relief of flooding there as a matter of urgency.

There are other rivers not of the same magnitude as the Erne which have been spoken of by other Deputies as, for instance, the River Boyne which was mentioned by Deputy Giles. While the River Boyne does not flow through my constituency, its tributaries do. Time and time again engineers have visited the area. If they had a shovel for all the times they have visited the area, not to talk of the amount of money that has been spent on engineers, there would not be much water lying around the borders of my constituency now.

Mr. J. Brennan

They were on survey work when they called.

Mr. O'Reilly

Is that recently?

Mr. J. Brennan

The Boyne catchment has been surveyed and is nearing completion.

Mr. O'Reilly

Can the Parliamentary Secretary intimate when the work will commence?

Mr. J. Brennan

When concluding, I shall try to sum up the position as best I can.

Mr. O'Reilly

The Parliamentary Secretary has given me some hope— not like Deputy Moloney who hinted that it may be 25 years before our drainage programmes are completed.

Mr. J. Brennan

Before the Boyne is drained?

Mr. O'Reilly

Yes. Possibly the Parliamentary Secretary could also tell us when the Erne will be tackled?

Mr. J. Brennan

There is no lack of co-operation on the Erne. A survey is proceeding. However, the Boyne is in front of it.

Mr. Collins

I am interested in the drainage of the River Deale in the heart of the Golden Vale in county Limerick. I think the survey was completed about 1½ years ago. The Parliamentary Secretary informed me some time ago that the work would be put in hands as expeditiously as possible. I should be glad if he could give a clear indication as to when all the preliminaries necessary to advertising the scheme will be put in hands.

We do not begrudge the fact that other areas are being drained—the Moy, the Corrib, the Feale. Putting first things first, I could never understand why the Deale or the Maigue were relegated so far down in the queue. However, better late than never. We have made some little progress in regard to the survey of the Deale. The engineers have done their job. The survey has been completed. There is no point in shelving the matter. I do not know what is happening the principal scheme.

The Parliamentary Secretary is a man of drive and initiative. I urge him to gear up the machinery and get down to having something done for the benefit of the dairy farmers in the area in question.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 17th May, 1960.