Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 May 1960

Vol. 182 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vóta 33—Oifig an Aire Oideachais.

Aire Oideachais (Pádraig Ó hIrighile)

Tairgim:

Go ndeonófar suim nach mó ná £279,100 chun slánaithe na suime is gá chun íochta an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1961, le haghaidh Tuarastail agus Costais Oifig an Aire Oideachais agus Costais a bhaineann leis an gComhairle Oideachais.

Sé mhilliún déag, cúig chéad ochtó is a hocht míle, ocht gcéad is deich bpunt atá ins na naoí Vótaí go bhfuilim-se freagrach iontu. Is méadú é sin de £977,590 ar an méid a soláthraíodh sa bhliain airgeadais seo caite.

In éineacht leis sin tá £1,600,000 fé Vóta 9, Oibreacha Poiblí agus Foirgintí, chun tithe scoile náisiúnta a thógáil, a mhéadú is a dheisiú. Mar sin tá ar fad £18,188,810 dá sholáthar le haghaidh na seirbhísí oideachais. Tá an méid sin gairid do 15 fén gcéad den iomlán atá dá chur ar fáil i gcomhair na Seirbhísí Soláthair ar fad. Sara dtosnóidh mé ag caint ar gach Vóta ar leithligh, ba mhaith an méaid seo a rá fén scéal i gcoitinne.

Táthar ann adeir go mba cheart go mbeadh i bhfad níos mó airgid á thabhairt le haghaidh an oideachais. Ní abraim ina gcoinne san. Mar sin féin ní mór dúinn deighleáil go cothrom leis na seirbhísí uile. Mar sin de bíodh go bhfuil an dóchas agam go ndéanfar méadú ar an soláthar le haghaidh oideachais le himeacht aimsire agus do réir mar a bhíonn feabhas ar chúrsaí economaíochta, measaim go n-aontófar, sa mhéid go bhfuil tugtha i gcóir cursaí oideachais 15 fén gcéad den iomlán atá á chur ar fáil le haghaidh na Seirbhísí Soláthair uile, go dtuigimíd go rí-mhaith cé chomh tábhachtach don náisiún atá go mbeadh córas oideachais ar fónamh againn.

OIFIG AN AIRE OIDEACHAIS.

Costaisí riaracháin na Roinne atá sa Vóta so. An t-iomlán de £418,700 is mó é de £30,480 ná suim na bliana anuraidh. Sé fáth atá leis sin, go furmhór, ná go bhfuil orainn soláthar a dhéanamh le haghaidh an mhéaduithe ar thuarastal foirne na Roinne a lean an méadú tuarastail is déanaí a tugadh don Stát-Sheirbhís i gcoitinne. Ceithre chéad caoga a hocht n-oifigeach atá ar fhoirinn na Roinne, 5 níos lú ná mar bhí againn sa bhliain 1959/60.

BUN-OIDEACHAS.

Sé méid glan atá sa Vóta so ná £10,478,240. Is mó é sin de £645,170 ná suim na bliana 1959/60. Tá an méadú san ann de bhrí gurb éigin breis airgid a chur ar fáil le haghaidh tuarastail agus pinsin na múinteoirí náisiúnta. Dhá rud fé ndeara an mhéaduithe ar an soláthar le haghaidh tuarastail: an chéad cheann moladh na comhairle idirréitigh go méadófaí na scálaí tuarastail do mhúinteoirí náisiúnta; an dara ceann an fás atá ar líon na múinteoirí ins na scoileanna. Sa scoil-bhliain dar chríoch an 30ú lá Meithimh, 1959, bhí 13,684 mhúinteoir ar fostadh sna scoileanna, i gcomparáid le 13,554 sa bhliain roimhe sin. Tá méadú freisin ar líon na ndaltaí sna scoileanna náisiúnta: bhí 505,363 ar rollaí ar an 30ú lá Meithimh, 1959, i gcomparáid le 504,401 ar a chothrom san de lá sa bhliain 1958.

Sa bhliain dar chríoch an 31ú de Mhárta, 1960, ceadaíodh deontais dar suim £1,500,000 chun 73 scoil nua a thógáil agus chun mór-athdhéanamh nó mór-athchóiriú a chur ar 61 scoil maille le mionoibreacha a dhéanamh ar a lán scoileanna eile. Nuair a cuirtear san áireamh an chion-íocaíocht áitiúil de £243,148, is é costas measta na n-oibreacha san ná £1,743,148. Is mó de £277,330 é sin ná figiúir na bliana roimhe sin.

Chaith Coimisinéirí na nOibreacha Poiblí £1,540,000 ar thógáil scoileanna i rith na bliana; tógadh 85 scoil nua agus cuireadh críoch ar 45 scéim mhór-athchóirithe is fhairsingthe. I dtús na Márta seo gaibh tharainn bhí 102 de scoileanna nua á dtógáil, rud a thaispeánann go bhfuil dul ar aghaidh maith á dhéanamh chun fáil réidh leis na foirgintí mí-oiriúnacha.

Sin agaibh, mar sin, na figiúirí agus na fíricí. Ba mhaith liom anois tagairt speisialta a dhéanamh do roint nithe áirithe.

Anuraidh cuireadh tús le gluaiseacht chun an coibhneas idir mhúinteoirí agus dhaltaí d'fheabhasú tré laghdú deich n-aonad a dhéanamh ar na meánacha a bhí riachtanach chun an dara cúntóir a cheapadh i scoil náisiúnta. Mar gheall ar deireadh a bheith curtha leis an gcosc ar mhná pósta tá an soláthar de mhúinteoirí feabhsaithe go mór agus is áthas liom gur féidir liom anois a fhógairt go ndéanfar laghdú deich n-aonad ar na meánacha atá riachtanach chun an tríú, an ceathrú, an cúigiú agus an séú cúntóir a cheapadh nó a choiméad i bpost. Beidh éifeacht leis an laghdú ón lú Iúil na bliana so amach.

Le tamall de bhlianta anuas, tá scrúdú á dhéanamh san Roinn ar an gcóras chun abhair mhúinteoirí a thoghadh agus a oiliúint. Tá a fhios ag Teachtaí gur thré mheán an chomórtais oscailte agus na gcoláistí ullmhúcháin a toghtar na hearcaigh sin. Tuataigh atá i gceist agam, ar ndóigh.

Anuraidh chuireamar mar chuid den gcomortas oscailte agallamh ar na hiarrthóirí. Bhí toradh maith ar an mbeartas mar ba léir gur coisceadh ar dhul sna coláistí oiliúna iarrthóirí áirithe a raibh easnaimh phearsain orthu a d'fhág mí-oiriúnach do ghairm na múinteoireachta iad. Deineadh leas na n-iarrthóirí sin chomh maith le leas na gairme nuair stopadh iad ar dhul ar aghaidh.

Chomh maith le scrúdú a dhéanamh ar an gcomórtas oscailte tháinig scéim na gcoláistí ullmhúcháin fé bhreithniú freisin. Éinne a thuigeann conas mar bhí cúrsaí oideachais ins an tréimhse idir an bhliain 1925 agus an bhliain 1930, nuair a cuireadh na coláistí ullmhúcháin ar bun, is léir dó san cé chomh riachtanach a bhí sé a leithéidí de choláistí do bhunú. Na hiarrthóirí meán-scoile a bhí a d'iarraidh dul isteach sna coláistí oiliúna an t-am san ní rabhadar sách oilte ar an nGaeilge agus b'éigin meán-scoileanna a bhunú a chuirfeadh abhair mhúinteoirí ar fáil a mbeadh an Ghaeilge ar a dtoil acu agus oiliúint mhaith mheán-scoile orthu chomh maith.

Bíodh go n-admhaíonn gach éinne go raibh buanna áirithe ag na coláistí ullmhúcháin, bhí lochtaí bunúsacha orthu chomh maith. Ní ionmholta é go mbeadh ar dhaoine óga d'aois 13 mblian nó mar sin a shocrú go raghadh siad le gairm na múinteoireachta ar shroisint aois fir dóibh. Agus is é sin go baileach an t-ualach a chuir scéim na gcoláistí ullmhúcháin orthu: formhór mór na scoláirí ní raibh ina gcumas an táille iomlán d'íoc agus ligeadh isteach sna coláistí iad ar tháillí laghdaithe nó ar neamhní, ach ghaibh na scoláirí agus na tuismitheoirí orthu fhéin i gcás go n-éireodh an scoláire as a chúrsa go dtabharfadh sé aisíoc don Roinn de shuim a b'ionann agus an difir idir an táille a híocadh, má híocadh rud ar bith, agus an táille iomlán. Mar sin de bhí tiomáint den tsaghas is déine ar an scoláire leanacht dá chúrsa oiliúna le haghaidh na múinteoireachta cuma má bhí an ghráin aige fén am san chuig na gairme sin. Tá a leithéid sin fíor-mhíchuí, go háirithe i gcás an mhúinteora, duine gur ghá go mbeadh dúil ina chéird ann.

Thairis sin córas ar bith a dhéanann abhair mhúinteoirí do scaradh óna gcomrádaithe eile scoile ag aois 14, ní inmhianta a leithéid ó thaobh an oideachais de de bhrí go gceileann sé comhluadar scoláirí a bhfuil spéis acu i ngairme eile ar na habhair mhúinteoirí sin agus lena chois sin de bhrí go bhfuil na scoláirí ró-óg chun aidhm agus cúrsa ar leith a cheapadh dhóibh.

Le linn dom bheith ag breithniú na gcoláistí ullmhúcháin mar chuid den gcóras chun múinteoirí oilte a chur ar fáil rinne mé iad a mheas i leith a bhfuil beartaithe againn ó thaobh an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn. Tá triail béil Ghaeilge tugtha isteach cheana féin mar chuid den scrúdú ardteistiméireachta. Nuair a bhíos ag tabhairt fógra do na múinteoirí náisiúnta i dtaobh na leasaithe ar an gcóras cigireachta ghlacas an chaol chugam féin chun a chur ós cóir na múinteoirí an tábhacht ar leith atá á thabhairt do theagasc na teanga labhartha.

Tar éis dom mo mhachtnamh a dhéanamh ar scéim na gcoláistí ullmhúcháin ón dá thaoibh, táim tagaithe ar an gcomhairle gur fearr deireadh a chur leis an scéim sin agus ina áit sin an scéim atá a reachtáil fá láthair chun scoláireachtaí meánscoile a thabhairt do dhaltaí ón nGaeltacht a mhéadú go maith. Fé láthair, téann timpeall leath-chéad daltaí ón nGaeltacht isteach sna coláistí ullmhúcháin gach bliain agus gheibheinn ocht nduine déag eile na scoláireachtaí meánscoile a luas. Tá ar intinn agam go mbronnfar ochtó scoláireacht meánscoile feasta ar lucht na Gaeltachta in áit na n-ocht gcinn déag a bronntar fé láthair; thairis sin go méadófar ó chúig cinn do dtí cúig cinn déag ar na scoláireachtaí ollscoile a bronntar ar scoláirí ón nGaeltacht agus go gcoinneofar ceithre háit in áit dhá cheann dóibh sna coláistí oiliúna tís. Beidh na buanna áirithe seo ar leithligh ag teacht as an socrú san:—

(1)Tabharfaidh sé lámh chúnta mhaith don scéim chun labhairt na Gaeilge a chothú sna meánscoileanna mar nuair a bheidh an socrú nua fé lán-tseol beidh dá deascaibh buíon de thimpeall ceithre chéad cainteoir dúchais scapaithe ar na meánscoileanna;

(2)Tabharfaidh sé deis do níos mó cainteoirí dúchais ná riamh chun an oiliúint agus an t-oideachas d'fháil a ghabhann le cúrsa do leánúint sa gnáth mheánscoil chónaithe.

(3)Bhéarfaidh sé seans i gcónaí do na cainteóirí dúchais seo, más áil leo é, dul le gairm na múinteoireachta tré mheán an chomórtais oscailte agus ina theannta san tabharfaidh sé seans doibh dul leis na gairme beatha eile agus ar dul sa Stát-Sheirbhís, do réir a n-achmhainne.

Ní mór dom a rá, ámh, nach bhfuil ar intinn agam Coláiste Moibhí, an Coláiste Ullmhúcháin do Phrostastúnaigh do dhúnadh. Nílim chun an coláiste sin do dhúnadh mar nílim sásta go bhfuil i gcumas na meán-scoileanna Protastúnacha go fóill dóithin iarrthóirí oiriúnacha a chur ar fáil do choláiste oiliúna Eaglais na hÉireann.

Táim tar éis tagairt a dhéanamh cheana féin do na buntáistí, ó thaobh na Gaeilge dhe, a thiocfaidh, dar liom, as buíon maith de chainteóirí dúchais a roinnt ar na meánscoileanna. Sé mó dhúil freisin nach dtiocfadh, más féidir é sheachaint, go mbeadh laghdú ar na deiseanna atá fé láthair ann chun cúrsa meán-oideachais d'fháil tré Ghaeilge, de bharr deireadh do chur le scéim na gcoláistí ullmhúcháin. Ar an abhar san, tá comhráití ar siúl agam féacháint ar bhféidir socrú a dhéanamh chun foirgintí na gcoláistí d'úsáid le haghaidh gnáth-mheánscoileanna ina múinfí gach abhar tré Ghaeilge. Go dtí so, tá socrú dá réir sin déanta i gcás tri cinn de na cúig foirgintí.

Ós ag trácht dom ar cheist múinteoirí d'oiliúint, tá áthas orm é bheith im chumas a rá go bhfuilim tar éis críoch a chur le comhráití i dtaobh foirgintí nua a thógaint ag Coláiste Pádraig, Dromchonnrach, an coláiste oiliúna d'fheara Caitiliceacha. Na foirgintí atá ann táid mí-oiriúnach agus uireasach cuid mhaith.

MEÁN-OIDEACHAIS.

Is é £2,629,490 an meastachán iomlán do mheán-oideachas—agus is mó de £137,960 é ná an méid a vótáladh do mheán-oideachas don bhliain airgeadais 1959-60. Na méaduithe is mó atá i gceist is faoi na ceannteidil seo iad—deontas caipitíochta, a bhfuil méadú de £45,000 air, agus breisthuarastal, atá iníoctha le múinteoirí cláraithe i meánscoileanna agus a bhfuil méadú de £81,000 air, is cúis go príomha leis an soláthar breise atá á lorg.

Tá an deontas caipitíochta faoi réir an mhéadaithe ar líon na scoileanna agus ar líon na scoláirí iontu. Ag tosach na scoilbhliana seo, bhí 73,442 scoláirí meánscoile ann, méadú de 4,000 nach mór ar an líon a bhí ann an tráth céanna an bhliain roimhe sin. Bhí 47,065 scoláirí ag freastal ar mheánscoileanna deich mbliana ó shoin.

Bhí méadú bliantúil d'ocht gcinn ar an líon meánscoileanna a haithníodh gach aon bhliain de na deich mbliana suas go dtí 1958-59. Is cosúil go dtabharfar aithint do ocht scoileanna déag i mbliana agus árdóidh sé sin líon iomlán na meánscoileanna aitheanta go cúig chéad agus a dó dhéag. Tá an teagasc á thabhairt tré Ghaeilge sna habhair go léir nó i gcuid díobh i 2,404 de na scoileanna sin, an teagasc go léir tré Ghaeilge in 81 díobh.

Fé mar a bheifí ag súil leis agus an méadú a tháinig ar líon na ndaltaí meánscoile, tá méadú ar líon na múinteoirí atá fostaithe agus is é £1,626,000 an soláthar i gcoinne breis-thuarastail sa bhliain airgeadais 1960-61 i gcomórtas le £1,545,000 i 1959/60. Tá breisthuarastal á íoc le 3,087 múinteoir sa scoilbhliain seo, sin méadú de 132 ar an líon i 1958-59 agus méadú de 935 i gcomórtas leis an scoilbhliain 1949-50, nuair a bé 2,152 an líon. Tá tuairim is 1,750 múinteoir nó 57 fén gcéad den iomlán a bhfuil incrimint speisialta á fáil acu de bhárr céim le honóracha nó a coibhéis a bheith acu agus tá 1,025 díobh a bhfuil incrimint speisialta á fáil acu as ucht teagaisc tré Ghaeilge.

Cuireadh an triail bhéil speisialta sa Ghaeilge le gairid ar níos mó ná 8,000 iarrthóir ar scrúdú na hard-teistiméireachta. Níorbh aon dóichín an obair sin ach tré chomhoibriú gach éinne dá raibh páirteach sa ghnó d'éirigh go sár-mhaith leis. Deirtear gur tús maith leath na hoibre agus is mór an sásamh dúinn chomh fonnmhar is a ghlac na meánscoileanna leis na béiltrialacha so. Ag an am a bhí na béiltrialacha a dtabhairt isteach hullmhaíodh i gcomhairle leis na scolchumainn aithinte cúrsaí leasaithe i nGaeilge do Scrúdú na meán-teistiméireachta agus do scrúdú na hard-teistiméireachta. Bhí d'aidhm ag na cúrsaí leasaithe sin níos mó ama a chur ar fáil do labhairt na Gaeilge sa rang agus sa scoil i gcoitinne. Is mór an pleisiúr dom é a bheith le rá agam gur rud é an bhéim atá á leagadh anois ar labhairt na teanga a chuaigh i gcion go mór ar lucht na scoileanna.

Is léir é sin ó na hiarrachtaí a rinne bainisteoirí agus múinteoirí chun go mbainfí feidhm as an Ghaeilge mar ghnáth-theanga chaidrimh ins na scoileanna, tré imeachtaí tré Ghaeilge lasmuigh den rang a chothú—diospóireachtaí, cúrsaí speisialta agus ar uile —agus trén mhéadú mhór a tháinig ar an líon daltaí a chaith cuid de shaoire an tsamhraidh sa Ghaeltacht nó sna Coláistí Samhraidh Gaeilge.

Is é £24,000 an soláthar atháthar á dhéanamh sa bhliain airgeadais reatha 1960-61 faoi fho-mhírcheann B.6 Vóta 37—Eolaíocht agus Ealaín—do dheontais do choláistí a chuireann cúrsaí Samhraidh i nGaeilge ar fáil i gcomórtas le £13,300 i 1959-60. Sara n-imím ón ngné sin den ghnó, ba mhaith liom na bainisteoirí, na múinteoirí agus na scoláirí a mholadh go mór toisc an chaoi ar chomhoibríodar le na chéile agus iad ag freastal ar an dteist a tharla ann dóibh de bharr na trialach béil agus an chláir leasaithe i nGaeilge.

Tá méadú arís ar líon na rang a bhfuil deontais saotharlainne iníoctha ina leith. Mhéadaigh an líon ó 2,659 sa scoilbhliain 1957-58 go 2,832 i 1958-59 agus mhéadaigh arís go 3,079 i 1959-60. Bé 291 líon na scoileanna ina ndéantaí eolaíocht a theagasc deich mbliana ó shoin agus bé 1,796 líon na rang. Is é an chaoi a bhfuil an scéal anois, ó thaobh scoileanna na mbuachaillí de, nach bhfuil aon scoil ina bhfuil 150 dalta nó níos mó gan socruithe déanta inti chun cúrsa éigin de na cúrsaí eolaíochta a theagasc inti. Níl amhras dá laghad orm nuair adeirim go leanfaidh an méadú bliantúil ar líon na ranganna a bhfuil deontais saotharlainne iníoctha ina leith.

Reachtáileadh faoi scáth na Roinne dhá chúrsa ar éirigh go rí-mhaith leo do mhúinteoirí Gaeilge i meánscoileanna an Samhradh seo caite—ceann i mBaile Átha Cliath agus ceann eile i gCorcaigh. Bhí an oiread sin múinteoirí ag iarraidh freastal ar na cúrsaí sin nárbh fhéidir glacadh leo go léir agus tá socair cúrsa Gaeilge eile a thionól i mBaile Átha Claith an samhradh seo chomh maith le cúrsaí in Eolaíocht agus i Matamaitic. Tá gach eolas i dtaobh na ndátaí cruinne ar a dtionólfar na cúrsaí sin curtha in iúl do na scoileanna cheana féin. Tá na cúrsaí á mbeartú mar chuid de shraith ghinearálta a chuirfeadh ar chumas mhúinteoirí eolas do chur ar an dul chun cinn atá á dhéanamh i modhanna múinte.

Tuigim go bhfuil dréacht-thuarascáil na Comhairle Oideachais ar chúrsa léinn na meánscoileanna nach mór ullamh anois agus táim ag súil go mbeidh an tuarascáil agam i gceann tamaillín.

CEÁRD-OIDEACHAS.

San soláthar de £1,478,400 le haghaidh ceard-oideachais, tá méadú glan de £110,140 ar an iomlán a vótáladh sa bhliain 1959/60. An chuid is mó den mhéadú sin, £92,140, is sna deontais bhliantúla do choistí gairm-oideachais atá sé, agus isé is cúis leis, go príomhdha, feabhsú na scálaí tuarastail do mhúinteoirí agus do phríomh-oifigigh feidhmiúcháin. Tá breis ann, freisin, i leith (a) caiteachais ar tógáil scol nua agus ar mhéadú scol atá ann cheana, (b) oiliúint múinteoirí, agus (c) aisíoc a dhéanamh leis na húdaráis rátúcháin i leith chuid den chaiteachas a thuiteann orthu as pinsin agus aiscí d'íoc le hoifigigh a bhí i bhfostaíocht choistí gairm-oideachais.

Tógadh cúig ghairmscoil nua, agus do cuireadh le dhá cheann déag eile, ó thús mí Aibreáin, 1959. Tá naoi scoil eile á dtógáil faoi láthair, agus táthar ag cur le seacht gcinn. San bhliain airgeadais seo, tá beartaithe aon scoil is fiche a chur á dtógáil, ar chostas £702,500. Cuid de na scoileanna seo, ní foirgintí nua ar fad a bheidh iontu, ach foirgintí a cheannaigh coistí le hathchóiriú agus le cur in oiriúint mar scoileanna. Fairis sin, táthar le fairsingiú a dhéanamh ar sé scoil déag, ar chostas measta, £197,000. Léiriú é sin ar fad ar an dul—chun—cinn sásúil atá á dhéanamh chun freastal ar an éileamh atá ann le haghaidh gairmoideachais.

I dteannta an chaiteachais chaipitiúil a bhíonn ann i dtosach, tagann as scoileanna nua agus ranganna nua a chur ar fáil go mbíonn gá ag coistí le tuilleadh airgid le caitheamh gach bliain ar thuarastal múinteoirí, fearas ranganna agus cothabháil foirgintí. Ón Stát-chiste a thagann an chuid is mó den airgead sin, ach ní mór don údarás áitiúil riar áirithe de a sholáthar as na rátaí.

San seiseón teagaisc 1958/59, bhí 272 de bhuan-scoileanna gairmoideachais ag soláthar teagaisc, agus bhí ranganna nó cúrsaí ar siúl i 503 d'ionaid eile. I dtús an tseiseóin bhí 1,574 mhúinteoirí lán-aimsireacha ann, sé sin 37 thar an méid a bhí ann bliain roimhe sin. Bé líon na múinteoirí páirt-aimsireacha ná, 1,228—méadú de 107 ar líon na bliana roimhe sin.

Tá soláthar breise ann i mbliana le haghaidh oiliúint múinteoirí. Dhá cheann de na cúrsaí oiliúna atá ann faoi láthair—ceann do mhúinteoiri miotalóireachta—ar a bhfuil seacht nduine déag á n-oiliúint—agus ceann do mhúinteoirí adhmadóireachta— fiche duine á n-oiliúint—beidh deireadh leo i Meitheamh na bliana seo. Isé a chosnóidh siad sa bhliain airgeadais seo, £4,567. An dá chúrsa eile atá ar siúl, ar a bhfuil, faoi seach, ocht nduine déag agus fiche duine leanfaidh siad ar aghaidh go dtí Meitheamh na bliana seo chugainn. Cosnóidh siad sé mhíle déag, cúig chéad nócha agus a trí phúnt sa bhliain airgeadais seo. I mí Dheireadh Fómhair seo chugainn, tionscnófar cúrsaí oiliúna in adhmadóireacht agus foirgneolaíocht —fiche oiliúnaí—agus i miotalóireacht —ocht n-oiliúnaí déag—ar chostas measta, sa bhliain airgeadais seo, £7,700.

Ar na cúrsaí Samhraidh do mhúinteoirí atá le bheith ann i mbliana, tá ceann i múineadh na tuaitheolaíochta le haghaidh daoine a bhfuil céim in eolaíocht talmhaiochta acu; ceann in eolaíocht ithreach le haghaidh múinteoirí tuaitheolaíochta, cúrsaí ar bhia, ar chothú agus ar bhainistíocht tithe aíochta do mhúinteoirí Tís, cúrsa i ndearadh troscáin do mhúinteoirí adhmadóireachta, cúrsaí ar táthú agus ar inill Diesel le haghaidh múinteoirí miotalóireachta, cúrsaí ar mhodha múinte le haghaidh múinteoirí tráchtála agus múinteoirí ealaíne, cúrsa ar dhearadh foirgníochta le haghaidh múinteoirí foirgneolaíochta; agus do mhúinteoirí de gach cineál beidh cúrsa ann faoi ghléasanna éisteachta agus radhairc d'úsáid mar thacaí san mhúinteoireacht. Beidh ann, leis, an gnáth-chúrsa do chéimithe Iolscoile mar ullmhúchán don scrúdú le haghaidh an Teastais Timire Gaeilge: ar an gCeathrúin Rua, Conndae na Gaillimhe a bheidh an cúrsa sin, i mí Iúil.

Tá ag síor-mhéadú ar líon na ndaltaí ar na cúrsaí lán-aimsire lae san oideachais leanúna. Sa bhliain 1958/59, bhí 23,675 dhalta ar na rollaí—líon ba mhó de 714 ná an líon sa bhliain roimhe sin. Rud sonrach maidir leis an méadú sa tinnreamh ar chúrsaí oideachais leanúna sea a mhéid is a bhain sé le ceantracha tuaithe; i gcoitinne bíonn tinnreamh maith ar na scoileanna sna ceantracha sin agus b'éigin cuid de na scoileanna iontu a fhairsingiú.

Ar na cúrsaí lán-aimsire ceard-oideachais, freisin, bhí méadú ar an dtinnreamh: 929 ndaltaí a bhí ar na rollaí sa bhliain 1958/59, i gcomórtas le 855 sa bhliain roimhe sin. Le hoiliúint teicneoirí innealtóireachta agus leis an eolaíocht thionscalach is mó a bhaineann na cúrsaí sin.

Rinneadh tagairt anseo anuraidh don chaoi inar éirigh leis na printísigh ón tír seo a bhí sna comórtais eadarnáisiúnta do phrintísigh cheirde a tionóladh i mBruiséal na Beilge. An Samhradh seo caite bhí ceithre phrintíseach déag istigh ar chomórtais den chineál chéanna i Modena, san Iodáil. Bhuaidh ceathrar acu duaiseanna céad-áite, triúr acu duaiseanna dara háite, agus fuair beirt eile duaiseanna treas áite. Is mór is ionmholta iad as cruthú chomh mhaith sin i gcomórtas eadarnáisiúnta dá leithéid.

Is léir, ag féachaint don a thapúla atá an tinnreamh ar chúrsaí lán-aimsire iarbhunoideachais de gach cineál ag fás, nach í an fhadhb atá againn le réiteach, cé chaoi a dtabharfar ar thuistí na páistí a choimeád ar scoil ar feadh tréimhse níos faide ach gurab é atá le déanamh, dlús a chur le soláthar na ndeiseanna scolaíochta a bhfuil leas á bhaint astu go lánfhonnmhar.

Tá oiread sin gnéithe ann den ghairmoideachas gur deacair aon ghné amháin acu a thoghadh le trácht air go speisialta. Tá forbairt sonrach amháin ann, áfach, a tharla sa bhliain atá caite, go bhfeictear dom gur fiú é luadh anseo. Bunú na bhFeirm-Scol Geimhridh, mar a ghlaotar orthu, atá i gceist agam.

Tháinig oifigigh de chuid mo Roinnese agus oifigigh ón Roinn Talmhaíochta i ndáil chomhairle le méin comhcheangal éigin éifeachtúil a dhéanamh idir cláracha oideachais na gCoistí Gairm-oideachais agus na seirbhísí teagaisc agus comhairle a riartar ar mhodh níos sanasaí faoi choistí contae talmhaíochta. Bhíothas den tuairim, ó thús, gur ceart go mbeadh ar fáil don duine óg a bheadh ag dul i mbun feirmeoireachta rud éigin cosúil leis na cúrsaí do phrintísigh tionscail a ligtear saor ar feadh chuid den am chun freastal ar ranganna ceardscoile. Measadh gur ceart go rachadh na coistí gairm-oideachais agus na coistí talmhaíochta i gcomhar chun seirbhís dá leithéid a bhunú i ngach contae. Leagadh amach réim agus clár do chúrsa a bheadh oiriúnach, agus shocraigh oifigigh na gcoistí na seoraí do na hionaid áitiúla.

I mí na Samhna, 1959, bunaíodh cúrsaí turgnamhacha—ceann amháin, ar a laghad, i ngach contae: bhí seacht gcúrsaí is triocha ann ar fad. Tamall gairid ó shoin cuireadh críoch leis an gcéad seiseón de na Feirm-Scoileanna Geimhridh seo. Ba shásúil ar fad mar d'éirigh leo go léir. Bhí ós cionn ocht gcéad feirmeoirí óga—iad idir ocht mbliana déag agus cúig bhliain is fiche de ghnáth—ar na rollaí, agus ag deireadh an tseiseóin bhí timpeall seacht gcéad go leith acu ag freastal go féiltiúil fós. Táthar chun leanúint de chúrsaí den tsaghas seo a sholáthar san Gheimhreadh atá rómhainn.

Óna tuairiscí atá faighte agam ar na Feirm-Scoileanna Geimhridh, tá mé go láidir den tuairim go mbeidh siad ina ngléas le feabhas mór a chur ar éifeacht na hoibre talmhaíochta agus ar an táirgeadh talmhaíochta. Is eol dom go bhfuil an tAire Talmhaíochta ar an intinn chéanna liom faoi sin.

EOLAÍOCHT AGUS EALAÍ.

Tá méadú glan de £22,680 ar an Vóta iomlán i gcóir 1960/61 i gcomparáid leis an meastachán bunaidh do 1959/60. Tá san áireamh sa Vóta i mbliana soláthar do dheontais i gcabhair d'Acadamh Ríoga na hÉireann, do Cheol-Acadamh Ríoga na hÉireann agus do Chumann Ríoga Míoleolaíochta na hÉireann, deontaisí a bhíodh go n-uige seo sa Vóta Costaisí Ilghnéitheacha faoi riar na Roinne Airgeadais. Is mar seo leanas a déantar suas furmhór den méadú dár thagraíos:—£6,666 do thuarastail agus liúntaisí; £900 scoláireachtaí Iolscoile; £10,700 i leith deontas do na Coláiste Samhraidh Gaeilge; £2,000 do Choimisiún Béaloideasa Éireann; £1,000 d'Institiúid Náisiúnta na Scannán; £1,000 do Cheol-Acadamh Ríoga na hÉireann.

Sé is cúis leis an méadú go léir nach mór i leith tuarastail, páighe agus liúntaisí ná an t-ardú geinearálta tuarastail a deonadh do Stát Seirbhísigh.

Tá gá le soláthar breise de £900 á dhéanamh do scoláireachtaí na Roinne do mhic léinn ón nGaeltacht agus do mhicléinn go bhfuil fúthu cúrsaí ollscoile a dhéanamh tré Ghaeilge i ngeall ar an bhreith, a fógraíodh anuraidh, chun luach na scoláireachtaí sin a mhéadú de £25 i gcás mic léinn go bhfuil cónaí orthú as baile agus de £15 dóibh siúd atá ina gcónaí sa bhaile. An bhliain airgeadais reatha an chéad bhliain iomlán ina mbeidh na rátaí méadaithe iníoctha ina leith.

Thárla go bhfuil sé riachtanach, freisin, méadú fiúntach a dhéanamh ar an soláthar do dheontaisí tinrimh atá iníoctha le Coláistí Samhraidh a chuireann cúrsaí Samhraidh i nGaeilge ar fáil. Taréis méadú leanúnach do theacht ar líon na macléinn a bhí ag freastal ar na cúrsaí seo le roint bhlian anuas, tháinig méadú mór anuraidh nuair a bhí breis is cúig mhíle ag freastal ar chúrsaí a tionóladh 20 coláiste. Sa bhliain atá romhainn, beidh cúrsaí ar fáil i 25 de choláistí agus táthar ag súil le tuilleadh méaduithe ar an líon tinrimh. Is soiléir gur fhás go mór an t-éileamh atá ar na cúraí Samhraidh seo ó fógraíodh scrúdú béil bheith mar chuid den scrúdú ard-teistiméireachta.

Tá méadú de £2,000 san iomlán a soláthraítear ar mhaithe le Coimisiún Béaloideasa Éireann á thabhairt chun cabhrú leis an gCoimisiún bailiúchán leabhar—9,000 díobh—de chuid an Dr. F.S. de Búrca, nach maireann, a cheannach. Measann lucht saineolaíochta gur dócha gurb é seo an bailiúchán de leabhair stair agus dinnseanchas na hÉireann is fearr lasmuigh dena leabharlanna poiblí. Chuir cara, gan ainm, de chuid an Choimisiúin fuílleach an phraghais cheannaithe ar fáil.

Tá £1,000 breise á soláthar d'Institiúid Náisiúnta na Scannán chun cabhrú leis leanúint leis an obair chun leabharlann de scannáin oideachasúla, a mbeidh scannáin Ghaelige ina measc, a chnuasach. Cuirfear furmhór na suime bhreise seo i leith costaisí cuntais reatha i nGaeilge a sholáthar agus/nó obair thrialach maidir le stíall-scannáin a dhéanamh.

SCOILEANNA CEARTÚCHÁIN AGUS SCOILEANNA SAOTHAIR.

Fén Vóta so, tá mé ag iarraidh ar an Tigh aontú le £254,170 de sholáthar, sé sin, £10,150 níos lú ná mar a bhí i Meastachán na bliana so caite. Sé cúis atá leis an ísliú sin ins an soláthar ná an laghdú go bhfuiltear ag súil leis i líon na leanaí a bheidh fé choimeád ins na scoileanna saothair i rith na bliana 1960/61.

An titim i líon na leanaí ins na scoileanna saothair go ndearnadh tagairt di le roinnt bhlian anuas, tá sí ann i gcónaí. Ins an 48 de scoileanna saothair bhí 2,043 cailíní agus 1,826 buachaillí ag deireadh na bliana 1959 i gcomparáid le 2,192 agus 1,921, faoi seach, ag deireadh na bliana 1958. Tá breis i líon na mbuachaillí agus laghdú i líon na gcailíní atá fé choimeád ins na scoileanna ceartúcháin. Bhí 173 buachaillí fé choimeád ar an 31ú Nollaig, 1959, i gcomparáid le 148 ar an 31ú Nollaig, 1958. Bé an líon a bhí ins an dá scoil do na cailíní ar na dátaí céanna ná 34 agus 44 fé seach.

Tá scoileanna náisiúnta dá gcuid fhéin ag 20 de na scoileanna saothair agus tá foireann de sheasca múinteoir aitheanta ar fostú iontu súd. I gcás an chuid eile, 28 de na scoileanna saothair freastalann a gcuid páistí ar scoileanna náisiúnta ina gcomharsanacht. I dteannta leis na múinteoirí sin tá 92 mhúinteoir eile ar fostú chun eolaíocht tís, ceird agus a mhúineadh. Tá 20 múinteoir ar fostú ag na scoileanna ceartúcháin agus orthu san tá 8 gur múinteoirí ceird iad.

Cuid de na páistí ins na scoileanna saothair, faigheann siad iar-bhunoideachas trí scoláireachtaí a bhuachaint nó de thoradh na socruithe speisialta a dhéanann lucht stiúrtha na scoileanna dóibh.

Tá áthas orm a bheith ar mo chumas a rá go bhfuil suíomh oiriúnach faite don fhoirgneamh atá beartaithe a sholáthar in ionad na hÁite Coinneála atá i dTeach Maoilbhríde i nGlasnaoidhean.

INSTITIÚID ARDLÉINN BHAILE ÁTHA CLIATH.

Ochtó cúig mhíle, ceithre chéad go leith punt an meastachán don Institiúid Ardléinn, sé sin, £7,000 ós cionn an tsoláthair don bhliain seo caite. Sé cúis atá le beagnach iomlán an mhéadaithe sin ná an t-airgead breise atá ag teastáil chun breis tuarastail a sholáthar do fhoirinn na hInstitiúide.

IOLSCOILEANNA AGUS COLÁISTÍ.

Sé iomlán an tsoláthair le haghaidh gnóthaí reatha ins na hIolscoileanna agus Coláistí ná £925,630, sé sin, £62,500 ós cionn an mhéid a tugadh anuraidh. Sé an meastachán iomlán le haghaidh caiteachais chaipitiúil ná £61,000, sé sin, £29,000 de laghdú ar sholáthar na bliana so caite. Tá an t-airgead breise le haghaidh gnóthaí reatha de réir na riachtanaisí gur measadh iad a bheith ann nuair bhíothas ag déanamh amach na scálaí nua deontaisí anuraidh.

AN t-ÁILÉAR NÁISIÚNTA.

Sé an méad atá á sholáthar faoin Vóta so ná £13,370. Sé is cúis leis an méadú de £810 ós cionn an tsoláthair anuraidh ná an bhreis airgid atá ag teastail chun scálaí ardaithe tuarastail agus páighe a chur ar fáil.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Is maith liom ón leide a gheibhimid in óráid an Aire go bhfuil gach rud ag dul chun cinn i gcúrsaí na Roinne d'ainneoin an chlampair taobh amuigh ina lán áiteanna mar gheall ar a lán rudaí. Molaimse é as an bpictiúr a gheibhimid go bhfuil gach aon rud go cneasta idir é féin agus na daoine a dheineann obair seo an oideachais ar fuaid na tíre—na múinteoirí, na bainisteoirí agus na cumainn atá ag gabháil d'obair an oideachais.

Tá a fhios aige nár cíoradh i rith na bliana ceisteanna áirithe oideachais ach bhí fáth leis sin. Is mór is trua linn go bhfuil an fáth ann. Ba mhaith linn go léir níos mó eolais d'fháil i dtaobh an chórais bun-oideachais agus i dtaobh cad tá ar siúl sna bunscoileanna, sna meán-scoileanna agus sna ceard-scoileanna. Táimid dall ar a lán de sin.

I dtaobh ráitis an Aire, tar éis dó a rá go bhfuil feabhas tagtha ar an gcoibhneas idir mhúinteoirí agus daltaí deir sé, cuir i gcás:

Is áthas liom gur féidir liom anois a fhógairt go ndéanfar laghdú deich n-aonad ar na meánacha atá riachtanach chun an tríú, an ceathrú, an cúigiú agus an séú cúntóir a cheapadh nó a choimeád i bpost.

Ba mhaith linn a fháil amach cé mhéid scoil a gheobhaidh an múinteoir sa bhreis mar gheall ar an athrú atá déanta anois. Cé mhéid scoil a bhfuil beirt mhúinteoir iontu a mbeidh múinteoir eile iontu anois? Cé mhéid scoil a bhfuil triúr múinteoir iontu a mbeidh an ceathrú múinteoir iontu anois agus mar sin de?

Maidir leis na coláistí ullmhúcháin, ba mhaith linn a fhios a bheith againn cad iad na trí scoileanna go bhfuil sé socair ina dtaobh go mbeidh scoil idir-mheánach iontu agus cá bhfuil an dá scoil nach bhfuil aon rud socair fós ina dtaobh? Is dóigh liom gur as Gaeilge ar fad a bheas an mhúinteoireacht. Na trí scoileanna atá socair anois, an scoileanna le haghaidh cailíní nó buachaillí iad? Nuair a bheadh athrú den tsaghas seo á dhéanamh ba mhaith an rud é meánscoil a bheith ann i gcóir cailíní, áit a gheobhaidís oiliúint i luathscríbhinn agus obair oifige. Ba mhaith an rud é go háirithe nuair atá seans den tsaghas so againn gan an seans a chailliúint agus rud éigin a dhéanamh chun scoil den tsaghas sin a bhunú.

Beidh ceist ann leis i dtaobh na scoláireachtaí nua. Cá bhfuil an Ghaeltacht? Tá a fhios ag an Aire go bhfuil fadhb mhór ansin. Beidh orainn iarracht a dhéanamh chun sainmhíniú d'fháil air sin nuair a bheas Meastachán Aire na Gaeltachta ós cóir an Tí. Ba mhaith linn eolas d'fháil ón Aire i dtaobh cad iad na scoileanna go mbeidh sé de chead acu cur isteach le haghaidh na scoláireachtaí seo? Cad iad na ceantair go gconaíonn na páistí de ghnáth iontu? Tá fadhb mhór ansin leis.

Is dóigh liom go bhfuil an t-am tagtha nuair ba cheart go mbeadh a lán eolais againn i dtaobh na rudaí atá ar siúl sna scoileanna. Cé go mbíonn an-chaint ar fad ar siúl taobh amuigh, ní bhíonn ciall ar bith ag baint léi. Easpa tuisciona a bhíonn inti. Mar gheall air sin, ba mhaith liom a bheith soiléir i dtaobh a bhfuil ar m'aigne. Nuair adúradh go mbeadh an Meastachán ar siúl, thugas stracfhéachaint ar an méid adúradh anuraidh.

Do chuir sé an-ionadh orm a fheiscint nach bhfuil á rá agam inniu ach an rud adúirt mé anuraidh. Is é seo é, agus ba mhaith liom bheith soiléir mar gheall air.

There is a great deal of talk and criticism of all kinds outside, much of it very ill-informed although it comes from people who are actively engaged in education. Here we would like, at the Parliamentary level, that our criticisms, and the information for which we look, would be of a kind that would be constructive in the very important and difficult job the Minister for Education has here but, particularly, the difficult and important job that those people have who are the teachers, the managers, the organisers of educational work throughout the country. To make that possible, we ought to have some understanding of a clear kind as to what the general policy is in respect of the various stages in the primary schools, the secondary schools and vocational schools. It is now ten years—this may be almost the tenth anniversary—since the bringing together of a number of persons intimately connected with education for the purpose of having an advisory council to advise the Minister. That marked the beginning of a general review of matters connected with education, and that general review has been going on now for some years.

On 25th May, 1943, a Commission was set up to report on youth unemployment. That Commission reported in July, 1951, after eight years of consideration and deliberation. The Commission was a very representative body and, in its operations, it covered a considerable amount of ground. From the point of view of the Department of Education, two matters in particular were considered and reported on by the Youth Unemployment Commission. A recommendation was made that councils of education should be set up in various parts of the country to link together those engaged in education generally and the ordinary people. Another recommendation was the extension of the school-leaving age.

Concurrently, in order to review the situation from a Departmental point of view so as to assist in the most effective way possible the Commission on Youth Employment, should that body require assistance in a special way, the Minister for Education set up a Departmental Committee to report on the scheme of education generally in the country in relation to primary, secondary, technical, vocational and higher education. That Committee was appointed in March, 1945. They finished their deliberations towards the end of 1947. As a result of their review, they wrote a report dealing with the implications of the raising of the school-leaving age and what it would cost. They placed their considered opinion before the Commission on Youth Unemployment so that that Commission, when reporting and recommending in regard to the raising of the school leaving age, had had at their disposal the benefit of the data collected and collated by the Departmental Committee.

Nine years have passed since the report of the Youth Unemployment Commission was received. Twelve years have passed since the Departmental Committee made its report; and ten years have passed since the Council of Education was set up. The Council of Education reported in May, 1954. Their report and recommendations were sent to a large number of bodies, managerial, teaching, and others, for the purpose of letting them have another look at the position generally and at the recommendations made.

In November, 1956, the Government of the day were able to come to certain conclusions and indicate certain of the recommendations they were prepared to put into operation at once and others, which, with the flow of time and the availability of money, they were prepared to go ahead with in due course. I should like the Minister to let us know now to what extent any of these recommendations have been put into operation. Can he make a formal statement of what the Government intend as a matter of policy to pursue with regard to the recommendations made? The Minister has helped to meet the situation in the schools by increasing the number of teachers. An appreciable number have been added and that increase has been made possible by reason of the change with regard to the employment of married teachers.

It is my recollection that, in order to implement the recommendations of the Council of Education to increase the teaching power in the schools, we would have required, inside a period of 15 years from the time the recommendation was made, 1,140 additional men teachers and 3,185 additional women teachers. Scaling down the proposals made by the Council, in consultation with all concerned at the time, I was of the opinion we could aim at having 755 additional men teachers and 2,200 additional women teachers in 15 years. How far has the Minister travelled along the road towards achieving anything like that?

With regard to reorganising the programme and introducing additional subjects, once it was clear that the teaching power would be improved, it was equally clear that there would have to be further consultation with the teachers and the managers in the drawing up of a suitable syllabus and a suitable time-table, leaving to the managers the power to suggest alternative proposals. Granted that we did know what was being done, we would know only the picture of the work in the primary schools from four to 12 years of age, because the first thing the Council was asked to deal with was the position from four to 12 years as the basis of primary education.

About the same time, in November, 1954, while we were waiting to let the Council know what would be done in regard to the curriculum up to 12 years of age, they were asked to consider the secondary schools programme. When introducing his Estimate last year, the Minister told me he expected to have the report of the Council of Education on the secondary curriculum by the end of the year. I thought he would tell us today he had it and that it would be published next week. When I hear him say he hopes to have it soon, I am driven to say that it is now more than five years since the Council was asked to report on the curriculum of the secondary schools.

When I was approaching the Council and giving them their first writ about the curriculum of the secondary schools and the work in the primary schools up to 12 years, I understood the machinery that would have to be moved to get full consideration, to get complete understanding and to get common mind, as far as possible, that would bring them to a sensible decision. Therefore, I said to them: "Má tá céad gnó agat, ta céad lá agat," that is, that there was no necessity to rush matters in any way. However, the Commission on Youth Unemployment was set up in 1943 and we got their report in 1951.

We have reached a stage where we must ask ourselves where do we stand in this House, feeling that we want information, not for the purpose of creating difficulties for anybody dealing with education and not information that is not readily and reasonably available. We are in the position that we do not know what is the ideal curriculum for those up to 12 years at which we should aim in the primary schools. We do not know the outlook of the educational authorities, from teachers and managers up to the Department, in regard to the curriculum in the secondary schools and what is the accepted ideal for such a curriculum.

We are left with this: that we cannot possibly consider in any useful way what is happening or should be happening in the national school from 12 years on, how that may impact, whether it could substitute some of the work done in the lower stages of the secondary schools, and particularly how it infringes on the work falling to be done by the vocational schools. Only last year, at the annual conference of the vocational teachers, I think it was the President who suggested a certain curriculum that should operate in the national schools from 12 until 15 years in order to relieve the work in the lower stages of the vocational schools, work that was clogging their approach to their very important task.

You have there a most unsatisfactory situation for anyone who wants to approach the consideration of educational matters in a constructive way. While the people who want to say what they really know to be true—that the foundations of our educational scheme are absolutely sound and that magnificent work is being done—must remain dumb because we cannot ask questions without the implication that we are criticising or joining in the chorus of condemnation, all the dogs that want to bark from ignorance or from their own particular fancy ideas are all howling outside.

The Department of Education are being subjected to a criticism that makes it difficult for them to keep in vigorous, harmonious contact with educational authorities outside and this dampens the confidence of parents and children in the work of the schools. That does not happen in the case of people who habitually keep in touch with the work of the schools and who know what goes on in the schools. It creates a wrong atmosphere outside and it prevents us here doing our business in a constructive way by keeping in touch with the facts of education.

There is another thing for which we are waiting and it bears on what I say here. A special Commission has been set up to deal with the question of the Irish language. If I understood the terms in which the Taoiseach replied to the discussion on this matter in the Seanad the year before last, the inquiry is dealing particularly with the work of Irish in the schools. There was some kind of note in the papers the other day that that report would be out in a week's time or so. I want to say again that we cannot usefully discuss the pros and cons of any aspect of Irish in the schools while we have an organised body, or whatever kind of body it is, commissioned to assemble information and express opinions. They ought to be allowed examine the situation and express their opinions. When we see the facts they have assembled, the opinions they have expressed and the ideas that are promulgated by a majority or by a unanimous committee, then we can safely look on them; and if we disagree with them, we know that we can flat-footedly discuss them.

In the same way, if we have the report of the Council of Education on the secondary programme, we can afford definitely and soundly to examine and look at it and either agree or disagree with it because the ground upon which disagreement might arise will be solid ground. It will not be anything subjective and the discussions will be factual so that when you consider the time taken to send the report of the recommendations of the Council of Education on the primary programme to the various bodies, and to get that back, and get the final opinion of the Department of Education and the Government on it, if the Minister is to get the report on the secondary curriculum in about three weeks' time, when does he intend to print and publish that report for general information as the other was published? If the secondary recommendations are to be sent to the various bodies connected with secondary education to get their considered opinions on the report, and if the Department of Education then has to review the whole of that, and the Government have to consider it, when does he think we shall know what the proposed adapted and optimum syllabus for secondary schools will be?

I feel sure that the Minister appreciates all that. I wonder is there anything he can say to us that would enable us to be more sure of our ground with regard to the facts, in helping him by criticism and question from, say, after the coming Summer recess? I think that the whole scheme of things is losing a certain amount of vigour and energy by the fact that many intelligent people are keeping their tongues quiet until they see what the basis of our educational scheme is.

No one knows what is likely to happen with regard to the national schools. Are the national schools to peter out from dealing with children of 13, 14 and 15 years of age? If you are not to reach a situation like that, the sooner we get clear as to what the syllabus up to 12 is going to be, and what the national schools can be expected to do and will be allowed to do afterwards, the better it will be for the work of the national schools on the one hand and for the early years in the vocational scheme on the other.

The fact that the secondary education curriculum is not settled at the present time is a very disconcerting matter. I think the Minister ought to expedite the presentation of that report and that it ought to be made public at the earliest possible moment. I do not think that the Minister or the Department should delay to browse over it themselves before publishing it because it will not do any harm if the public get the report at the same time as the Department of Education. It would be some gratification and consolation to the people to know that the report was there and it would imply to them that the systematic work of examination, which began as far back as the appointment of the Youth Unemployment Commission in 1943, was going ahead.

I think that by now the Minister sees the lines on which he is proceeding in regard to the primary curriculum up to 12 years and he should let us know. He says that the report on the secondary curriculum will be in his hands shortly. He must have some kind of views as to what he proposes to do after that, whether through the Council of Education, or in any other way, to consider the primary school position after 12 years, and the vocational scheme in its lower regions.

The Minister has indicated that he proposes to set up a Commission on Higher Education. I should like to know if he has yet got any way clear as to, I shall not say the exact terms of reference for such a commission, but the ground that it would cover. Is it going to cover the higher technological side of the vocational system? Is it to cover the Universities on the one hand and the vocational schools at, say, the Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Dublin level, and as far as the technical school side of things is concerned, is it only to be concerned with the technological and technician side of that?

There is another question I should like to ask the Minister. Two aspects of primary education have, over a fairly long period, been given a certain amount of thought by people who are keenly interested in it. One is the school-leaving age and the other is the training of primary school teachers. Is the Commission on Higher Education likely to go into consideration of the Training Colleges in which national teachers are trained, into the curriculum and work that is done there, and the level of that work? However, as I say, when I looked at what I said on this occasion last year I could only say to myself: "I took the very words out of my mouth," because the very matters with which I wound up last year I am winding up with now. We do want an answer to some of these questions, with regard to the reports that have been made or, at any rate, the Minister's and the Government's proposals. If we could get them at the earliest possible moment we might be a source of worry to the Minister, but it would be a source of worry that could possibly be of assistance.

Pádraig Ó Fachtna

Le blianta fada anuas tá múinteoirí na tíre seo ag gearán faoin gcóras oiliúna atá againn sa tír seo le múinteoirí bun-scoile a oiliúint agus tá áthas orm go bhfuil an tAire i ndiaidh athrú a dhéanamh. Go dtí seo glacadh scaifte daoine óga, thart faoi ceithre bliana déag d'aois, isteach sna Coláistí Ullmhúcháin i ndiaidh dófa scrúdú a dhéanamh. Tháinig an mhór-chuid díobh seo ón nGaeltacht. Dá bhfaigheadh na daoine óga seo pas san Ard-Teistiméireacht le honóracha sa Ghaeilge bhí dóirse na gColáistí Oiliúna foscailte dóibh. Chomh maith leis sin glacadh scaifte beag iarrthóirí a tháinig as scoileanna eile, fríd an tír, isteach sna Coláistí Oiliúna i ndiaidh dófa an Ard-Teistiméireacht a dhéanamh, ach b'éigin do na hiarrthóirí seo marcanna i bhfad níos airde ná na marcanna a fuair na daoine ó na Coláistí Ullmhúcháin a fháil. Bhí orthu, de ghnáth, cúig onóracha ar a laghad a bheith acu.

Ar an chéad dul síos bhí mé den bharúil nach raibh sé ciallmhar páiste faoi 14 bliana a ghlacadh isteach i gColáiste agus a rá leis go gcaithfeadh sé a aigne a shocrú ag an aois sin ar a bheith ina mhúinteoir scoile. Bhí sé ró-óg ag an am sin le bheith cinnte cadé an ghairm bheatha ba mhaith leis leanstan. Sa dara dul síos, ní thiocfadh leis bheith ina chuidiú do oideachas sa tír seo an chuid is mó de mhúinteoirí na hÉireann a phiocadh bliain i ndiaidh a chéile as limistéir bheaga, mar a bhí á dhéanamh go dtí seo nuair a glacadh an chuid is mó de na múinteoirí as an Ghaeltacht.

Tá a fhios agam nuair a cuireadh tús leis an chóras seo gurb é an aidhm a bhí ann ná go mbeadh daoine mar mhúinteorí againn a mbeadh an Ghaeilge ón chliabhán acu agus a bheadh ábalta í a theagasc go maith agus go gcuideodh sé sin leis an Ghaeilge a athbheóú ar fud na tíre. Ní mar sin a thárla, agus ón méid eolais atá agamsa ar an cheist seo is mó cuidiú a thug na múinteoirí a tháinig ón nGalltacht ar an mhórchuid ná na múinteoiri a tháinig ón nGaeltacht le cúis na teanga.

Bhí cúis eacnamaíochta agus sóisialta leis sin. Cibé ar bith, i láthair na huaire tá a sháith Gaeilge ag scoláire ar bith a thig as na Meán-Scoileanna le Gaeilge a theagasc go maith i ndiaidh dó a bheith sa choláiste Oiliúna, agus is amhlaidh a bheidh an scéal níos fearr nuair a bheidh an triail béil ar siúl sna meán-scoileanna ar feadh tamaill.

Níl an scéal sásúil ach an oiread faoi na Coláistí Oiliúna féin. Ba cheart go mbeadh ceangal idir na Coláistí agus na hOllscoileanna. Bliain i ndiaidh a chéile tá scaifte múinteoirí óga ag teacht amach as na Coláistí agus ag tosú ar obair in achan chearn den tír. Tá muidne sa Teach seo agus tá muintir na tíre chomh maith ag dúil go mbeidh na daoine óga seo ina dtreoraithe i measc na ndaoine sna ceantracha a mbíonn siad ag obair iontu. Caidé mar thiocfadh le daoine mar iad a bheith ina dtreoraithe, a chaith, i gcás na ndaoine a bhi sna Coláistí Ullmhucháin, sé bliana scaite amach ó chaidreamh leis na daoine? Caidé mar thuigfeadh siad an saol? Caidé mar bheadh a fhios acu caidé na smaointí, na deacrachtaí, na haidhmeana, a bhí ag an ghnáthdhuine? Dá mbeadh orthu cuid dá gcuid ama a chaitheamh ar an Ollscoil bheadh dearcadh i bhfad níos leithne acu. Bheadh a n-aigne ag leathnú de réir mar bhí barúla na ndaoine óga eile san Ollscoil a ghabháil i gcion orthu. Chomh maith le sin bheadh stáid níos fearr acu i measc muintir na tíre agus ba chuidiú mór sin. Ba chóir céim a bhronnadh ar an mhac léinn fosta. Tá a fhios ag achan duine a bhfuil baint aige le hoideachas gur beag an difir atá idir an caighdén don Chéim B.A. agus don scrúdú deiridh san Choláiste Oiliúna. Tá an clár acadúil ins na Coláistí Oiliúna iontach leathan, fosta. Is beag a thig a dhéanamh leis an chlár seo san am atá le spáráil dó. Sé mo bharúil féin go gcaithfear fad an chúrsa a dhéanamh níos faide ná mar tá.

Tá rud amháin a shíl mé i gcónaí a bhí greannmhar fá dtaobh den scrúdú deiridh sna Choláistí Oiliúna—sin dá dtiocfadh leat greannmhar a thabhairt ar a leithéid—agus sin an scrúdú don Teastas Dá-Theangach. Nuair a bhí mise ar an Choláiste dá bhfaighfeá 50 fán gcéad in achan cheann den dá pháipéar Gaeilge agus 70 fán gcéad san triail béil gheobhfá an Teastas Dá-Theangach. B'ionann sin is a rá go raibh tú ábalta na hábhair a theagasc fríd an Ghaeilge. Amannta theip ar iarrthóir ón Ghaeltacht an teastas a fháil cionns gur theip air i gceann de na páipéirí. Bhí seisean ansin ábalta na hábhair a theagasc i mBéarla, ach ní raibh sé ceadaithe dhó na hábhair a theagasc fríd an Ghaeilge gídh go raibh an teanga sin aige ó dhúchas.

Tá an tAire chun coimisiún a chur ar bun le dul isteach san Ard-Oideachas. Ba mhaith liom a mholadh go mór go mbeadh baill de Chumann na Múinteoirí ar an gcoimisiún sin. B'fhéidir nach bhfuil ceangal díreach ag Cumann na Múinteoirí le hArd-Oideachas ach tá an bhun-chloch á leagadh ag múinteoirí bun-scoile agus ba cheart go mbeadh siad ar an gCoimisiún sin.

Tá áthas orm a fheiceáil go bhfuil an tAire i ndiaidh na bhfigiúirí a laghdú atá a dhíth le múinteoir breise a cheapadh agus scoil a ísliú. Tá barraíocht páistí ins na ranganna go fóill. Ba cheart na huimhreacha a laghdú don chéad chúntóir le cothrom na Féinne a thabhairt do mhúinteoirí agus do pháistí.

I gcás na leabhar Gaeilge, is é mo bharúil go bhfuil siad ró dheacair. Tá na leabhair do na naoináin measartha maith ach éiríonn siad níos deacra i ndiaidh a chéile. Is é an rud atá ag teacht as sin ná go bhfuil na páistí ag tiontú in éadan léitheoireacht i nGaeilge. Is é an aidmh ba cheart a bheith againn ná go bhfaigheadh páistí pléisiúr as an gceacht léitheoireachta i nGaeilge agus go meallfadh sin iad le leabhraí simplí i nGaeilge a léamh. Ó thaobh na leabhar Béarla dhe ba cheart cuid mhaith de na ceachtanna do na scoileanna faoin tuaith a bheith ag cur síos ar eolas ar an nádúir, ag moladh an tsaoil faoin tuaith, ag taispeáint a dhea-thréithe, ag míniú na mbuntáistí atá ag baint leis i gcomparáid leis an saol i gcuid de na cathracha móra. Sílim go gcuideodh sé sin leis na daoine óga a mhealladh chun fanacht faoin tuaith sa tír seo.

Tá an teastas bun-scoile ann go fóill. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil an tAire agus Cumann na Múinteoirí ag plé na ceiste sin. Má tá an tAire chun an polasaí atá aige fá labhairt na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn caithfidh sé deire a chur leis an scrúdú seo. Dúirt mé seo cheana féin anseo. Sílim nach bhfuil rud ar bith is mó atá ag cur bac ar labhairt na Gaeilge ná an scrúdú seo. I rang a sé, an t-am is fearr le greim na bpáistí ar an teanga a dhaingniú, caitear an bhliain uilig ag déanamh páipéirí scríofa ag ullmhú don scrúdú seo.

Bhí áthas orm a fheiceáil ón chuntas a thug an tAire uaidh ar na mallaibh faoi na hOllscoileanna go bhfuil sé in éadan an eleven plus. Fiú i Sasana féin tá siad mí-shásta leis an chóras. Tá sé amaideach a rá go dtig linn daoine óga a phiocadh amach ag an aois sin agus a rá leo go mbeadh scolaíocht de shaghas amháin fóirstineach dófa agus nach mbeadh scolaíocht de shaghas eile.

Tá moladh mór ag dul don Roinn as ucht an méid scoileanna úra atá tógtha acu i rith na bliana. Tá na seanscoileanna ag imeacht i ndiaidh a chéile, go measartha gasta, agus níl aon dabht ná go bhfuil na scoileanna úra á dtógáil go maith. Mholfainn don Aire faill a thabhairt do na hoidí atá le gabháil ag obair sna scoileanna úra seo a mbarúla a thabhairt ar na pleananna. Is minic a thiocfadh le hoide rud a mholadh a chuideodh go mór le héifeacht an fhoirgnimh mar scoil. Tá taithí ag na múinteoirí ar an obair. Tá a fhios acu caidé tá cearr leis na seanscoileanna ina bhfuil siad, agus tá a fhios acu cad iad na rudaí a shíleann siad a chuideodh leo na páistí a theagasc níos fearr. Mholfainn don Aire smaoitiú air seo. Ba cheart, fosta, páirc mhaith imeartha a bheith le achan scoil. Ní gá dom na fáthanna atá leis seo a lua.

Tá moladh ag dul don Roinn as ucht na gCúrsaí Ceoil agus Ciondargairdín atá a reachtáil acu. Mholfainn go láidir go mbeadh cúrsaí Gaeilge ann cosúil leo seo. Tá cúrsaí á reachtáil ag Cumann na Múinteoirí ach ba chóir don Roinn cuidiú leo.

Nuair a bhí an Bille Teilifíse ós cómhair na Dála tamall ó shoin labhras ar cheist na teanga agus an slí inar féidir leis an teilifís cuidiú leis an obair sa scoil. Ní dóigh liom go mbeidh gléas teilifíse i ngach scoil ach más féidir leis an Roinn dul i gcomhairle leis an údarás teilifíse ba mhaith an rud é. B'fhéidir go mbeadh sé ar a gcumas clár oideachais a chur ar fáil sa tráthnóna. Chuideodh sé sin go mór leis na gnáth-ábhair scoile.

Tamaillín ó shoin bhí rún ós cómhair an Tí ag tagairt don "compulsory Irish" agus ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá maidir leis sin. Níl aon chiall leis an seasamh a ghlacann duine adeir go bhfuil sé ar thaobh athbheochan na Gaeilge agus ag an am chéanna go bhfuil sé i gcoinne í a mhúineadh don aos óg. An té nach bhfuil sásta go gcaithfidh gach leanbh Éireannach nach bhfaigheann an Ghaeilge ón gcliabhán an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim ní féidir leis a rá go bhfuil sé ar thaobh na hathbheochana. Sé an bhrí atá leis an athbheochan ná an teanga a chur thar nais i ngnáthúsáid arís i dtreo is go mbeadh sé ar chumas gach éinne í a labhairt. Ní abróinn go dtiocfadh leat "compulsory Irish" a thabhairt air sin. Tá sé ar aon dul le mórán rudaí eile atá "compulsory" ach go nglactar leo.

I am glad to note that the attitude throughout the country as regards the revival of the language is different to what prevailed, and appeared to be gaining ground, at the time when a motion was put down in this House by two Deputies about what they termed "compulsory Irish". The campaign against the language reached its peak about that time and it has now subsided. I suppose I could give reasons why that change came about but, because I am genuinely interested in the revival of the language, I have no intention of alienating support for the movement for the sake of scoring minor points.

The stand generally adopted by those opposed to the revival of the language is that those who advocate revival are narrow-minded cranks who are interested in nothing but riding their own hobby horse and that those who are opposed to the language are broad-minded people worried only about the effect that the revival of the language will have on the education of the children. They remind me of the drunkard who, knowing that there is no virtue in drunkenness, tries to put it on a pedestal by describing the pioneer as a narrow-minded spoil-sport. I would be the first to admit that there were cranks in the language revival movement just as there were cranks in every other human organisation and just as there are cranks among those who are opposed to the language, but the vast majority working towards the revival of the language are working earnestly and with absolutely no material advantage to themselves, simply because they believe that the language is essential to the future prosperity of the country.

The Irish people are a nation because through the years they developed along lines peculiar to themselves. They developed a language, culture and traditions of their own and these things caused them to unite just as a family does. They caused them to struggle for success just as a family does. Anything that weakens family ties weakens the prospect of success for that family. In the same way, anything that weakens the ties of a nation makes that nation less secure.

The introduction of the English language into this country gave what I might call short-term material advantages but it also left us open to a stream of alien and hostile propaganda which sapped our energy and seriously damaged our spirit of self-reliance. If I might give an example, we have the case of Holland which during the last war was an occupied country. It was devastated and shortly after the war lost practically all its empire. Yet, to-day it has a relatively high standard of living. The same can be said of the Danes and Belgians.

It may be asked why we have not attained the same standard and I feel that to a certain extent it is because their language made them more of a family than we are. It would hardly be suggested by a Dutchman that because his country might gain a slight material advantage they should accept the political control of some other country such as France or Germany. It is not because a Dutchman is a better man than an Irishman; it is simply that the language binds the nation together and protects the people from alien influences which are undermining our own self-reliance.

Quotations of the kind I am about to make have been made before but I do not thing it is any harm to make them again. Practically every movement that attempted to free this country realised the importance of the language and the writings of the leaders prove this. William Rooney described the language as "incarnating the highest ideal of national individuality". Further, he said:

"Though few of the leaders of the United Irishmen were Gaelic speakers, most of them were students of the language and recognised its potency. They would most certainly have given us an Irish nation."

Davis said:

"The language is a surer barrier and more important frontier than fortress or river."

Pearse said:

"An Ireland not free merely but Gaelic as well, not Gaelic merely but free as well.

MacSwiney said:

"Our frontiers are twofold—the language and the sea."

To take a few quotations from foreigners, we have Professor Ramsey Muir saying:

"Unquestionably unity of language is a binding force of the utmost importance and counts far more than race in the moulding of a nation."

Bernard Joseph in Nationality states:

The most obvious element of nationality is language. It is by language more than any other single distinguishing features that nationalities are identified.

I should like to quote now from a couple of newspaper cuttings. I have here a cutting from the Sunday Review of 15th November, 1959. It is a report of a speech made by Dr. Rupert Lawton, managing director of the Irish Refining Company, at a meeting of the Dublin Society of Chartered Accountants in the Hibernian Hotel. He went on to say that:

... one of the reasons why no Irish Government has succeeded in reversing the tide of emigration was that no enterprise had been shown by successive Governments to make Ireland something as separate and distinct from England as France or Belgium or any other Continental country.

My next quotation is from the Sunday Press of 15th November, 1959, the same date:

The head of a Quaker Relief Mission visited Vietnam when the refugees were coming south. He was particularly struck by the fact that some Catholic groups who were about to re-settle in long double ribbons of ground flanking both sides of a main road that ran through a jungle began, not by clearing the jungle to ensure their food supplies, but by building an "enormous" church.

"I must confess," he remarked later, "that my frugal and perhaps ultra-Protestant mind was a little shocked at this choice of priorities. But of course they were right. The first essential for them was to recreate the outward and visible sign of their inward and spiritual community."

That does not refer directly to the language but I feel that the same principles could apply to the language: The first essential for us is to re-create the outward and visible sign of our inward and spiritual community. That outward visible sign, in my opinion, is our own language. These people may have been wrong in their outlook but the fact that the Irishmen among them were ready and willing to lay down their lives for the ideal is sufficient for me to believe that the revival of the language is a highly desirable objective.

During that debate, references were made to the fact that some responsible authorities had said there was growing disquiet and dissatisfaction about compulsory methods. Heads of schools were mentioned. We have not heard spokesmen from one solitary educational establishment which employed competent teachers say one word against the compulsory teaching of Irish or against passing Irish in examinations. If a headmaster in a school were to say that a particular subject—leaving the Irish language out altogether—on the curriculum was not being taught successfully, that school would be avoided. Such schools would be avoided if their headmasters objected to the teaching of the Irish language and told the parents they were not employing competent people to teach the language, as they should do, if such were the case.

Reference was also made to a psychologist who had attacked the teaching of the language. This psychologist prefaced his attack in this manner:

The theoretical and experimental issues can be discussed calmly from a purely psychological point of view, but the reality situation is part of a wider problem involving political, national, economic and sociological considerations, with which the psychologist as such is not concerned, but from which in practice he prescinds at his peril.

Let us look at the sorry mess in which this eminent psychologist found himself when he did prescind, as he says, at his peril. He says he is concerned only with the welfare of children but forgets that many others are likewise concerned with their welfare. In fact, some were so concerned that they were willing to lay down their lives so that they might be safeguarded. He forgets that national policy regarding many aspects of our national rehabilitation are determined by society and not by psychologists.

Irish society has determined in favour of the revival of the Irish language. Psychologists, of course, can point to the undesirable results arising from the change but they could likewise point to the undesirable results arising from automation, the growth of cities or the development of nuclear science. A medical doctor could, for example, condemn the building of factories because of the effect of the smoke that pollutes the air, but society has decreed that the change from the cottage industry to the factory is desirable, and so the change takes place.

This psychologist would permit the Irish language to be taught to the intelligent half of our children. That, of course, is something which would be condemned by any teacher. He says they should form two groups, one, the learners of Irish and the other, the non-learners. That, of course, is unsound; it is nationally, economically, morally and educationally unsound. It is nationally unsound because it is directed against the ideal of national rehabilitation; it is economically unsound because we cannot afford to have two different educational systems, at the primary, secondary, vocational and University levels. In fact, most people agree, and we here know, that we have not sufficient money to have one proper educational system. It is socially unsound because it presupposes segregating society into two groups, the intelligent and the unintelligent, which would result in the emotional disturbances which so worry our psychologists.

He claims, too, that the learning of Irish is a contributory cause of emigration. I feel it should be abundantly clear that where a child is brought up with a knowledge of the language of his own nation, he is apt to have more appreciation of the individuality of his own nation. A child who is brought up in the English-speaking world has no real linguistic anchor. He is just as much at home linguistically in England, America, Canada or Australia as he is here in Ireland. I feel, as I say, that where he has a knowledge of his own language, he has at least got a linguistic anchor.

Our National University tradition is, to a large extent, responsible for the sorry mess in which so many of our pseudo-intellectuals find themselves at present, as far as the function of national education is concerned. It has contributed to the false notion that education is a purely cosmopolitan service, that the only special characteristic required of an Irish University is that it be geographically situated in Ireland.

I support the revival movement because I believe, apart from any other consideration, it will help to achieve the material wellbeing of our people by cementing them together in a closer bond. We can succeed as others have succeeded. If, in the last analysis, we do fail, the character of our people will be so much the stronger for having tried. As I said here on a previous occasion, what worries me is that I fear that our attitude towards the problem of the revival is symptomatic of our attitude towards every difficult problem which we face and, unless we change our mental attitude, we are doomed as a nation.

Donnchadh Mac Seoin

Ar dtús, ba mhaith liom a rá nach bhfuil aon rud in oráid an Aire nach n-aontóidh an Teach leis. Sílim, maidir leis an méid a bhí le rá aige faoi uimhir na ndaltaí, uimhir na scoileanna nua atá á dtógaint agus uimhir na múinteoirí atá ag obair iontu gur maith an méid sin go leir agus go bhfuil dul chun cinn ann sa treo sin.

Ba mhaith liom comhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Aire, ar an ócáid seo, as ucht an méid oibre atá déanta aige ar son múinteoirí aosta—ceist a bhí ós cómhair an Tí seo agus ós cómhair an phobail le tamall maith anuas.

Maidir leis an gcóras oideachais atá againn anseo, ó am to ham, agus go háirithe ag an am seo den bhliain, cloistear mórán cainte sa Teach seo agus ar fud na tíre agus scríobhtar mórán ins na páipéirí nuachta ag déanamh cáineadh agus gearáin ar an gcóras oideachais féin, ar na modhanna múinteoireachta, ar na daltaí agus na micléinn agus fiú amháin ar na hoifigigh atá i mbun na hoibre go léir. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil an cáineadh agus an gearán sin tuillte acu. Tá a fhios againn go léir gur sheas ár gcóras an fód le fada an lá, go raibh sé agus go bhfuil sé go maith d'ár ndaoine óga, gur spreag sé a n-intleacht agus gur chabhraigh sé chun iad a chur chun cinn pé áit a ndeachaigh siad.

Ar na pointí teicniúla, tá a fhios ag gach éinne sa Teach seo agus lasmuigh de go bhfuil comhchainteanna ar siúl idir an Roinn agus an tAire agus daoine eile ar cheist an oideachais ina iomlán—ní hamháin múinteoireacht ach fiú na daoine i mbun an oideachais. Tá súil agam go leanfaidh sé sin agus go dtiocfaidh feabhas gach uair a thiocfaidh an dá thaobh le chéile le haghaidh na gcomhchainteanna sin.

Bhí áthas orm a chlos go bhfuil tús maith á chur leis an scéim do labhairt na Gaeilge. Tá tosach déanta againn i mbliana i scrúdú béil san Árd-Teistiméireacht. Ón méid atá le clos faoi sin, tá na daltaí agus gach éinne eile sásta leis agus ceapann siad go n-éireoidh leis i mbliana. Níl fonn orthu gearán a dhéanamh faoin slí ina ndeintear é.

Is áthas liom a chlos go bhfuil líon na ndaltaí ins na scoileanna ag dul i méid ó bhliain go bliain. Sílim gur sin an comhartha is fearr a thaisbáineann agus a thugann le tuiscint dúinn nach féidir le muintir na tíre seo dul chun deiridh san oideachas.

At this time of the year, we find that education in general, the systems and the various parties that make up education, comes in for its share of criticism. That criticism is in regard to the control of the system of education. Sometimes it applies to teaching or teaching methods, whether that be in the primary, secondary or technical schools or in the university, or it may be a criticism of the pupils themselves as to how they are getting it. It is often the case that all that spate of criticism is not at all helpful even to people involved in this question of education or the pupils in our schools, colleges or universities.

Generally speaking, our youth to-day have special problems. In this modern world they must meet the impact of the cinema, television, newspapers, and so on. By and large, we need have no fear about our younger generation. They still give a good account of themselves. They are maintaining the traditions which we have come to expect from our people.

At times, people may not agree on how to proceed in regard to the younger generation but the people who so criticise grew up in a sheltered period and had not to face the impact of distractions such as those which our young people must face now. Therefore, it can be said that, in our primary schools, our secondary schools, our technical schools and our universities, a very creditable level of attainment and effort is being sought and made. Like every other country, we have our problems in regard to youth but I believe it is due to their environment in this modern age. If anything is wrong, the elders of this country should take a hand. It is all very well to criticise and to castigate our youth but we should be prepared to offer suggestions as to how difficulties may be surmounted.

At present our young people leave the primary school at about 14 years of age and if they do not proceed to a secondary or a vocational school they very often find themselves at a loose end. Sometimes, it is the commencement for them of a descent which, if not checked, leads them into trouble with the authorities and very often with their own homes. In that respect I think that, generally, the raising of the school leaving age would be wise. It would save young people of 14 years of age from the impact of the year or two they may have to spend between their departure from the school and their taking up of work of a type or going into a trade. It might even save them from exposure at too tender an age to have to work too young for miserable pittances which might be called "wages".

The lowering of the averages in the schools has been a great advantage particularly where schools have been verging for years on the appointment of teachers and have been unable to reach it. Anybody with experience of dealing with a number of people and supervising them in any capacity whatsoever knows that when the numbers become large the problem becomes difficult. There is a teaching problem where classes are too large, which happens in many cases, and really effective work cannot be done if a teacher has to cope with classes much too large for the limited amount of time he has to give to a particular subject.

In our primary schools at the moment, particularly in country areas, we have to deal with children of all types of educational ability, whether it be slight or medium ability or the normal ability. In that respect, an enumeration has been going on of children who are incapacitated in one way or another. I hope as a result that a method will be found whereby increased accommodation at specialised schools can be made available for training these children who suffer from some defect or other. It is not an easy problem but it is a problem which we ought to face. Every child is entitled to get as liberal an education as we can give him and that education must be fitted to suit both the mental ability of the child and the rate of progress of which the child is capable. In the ordinary primary school, it is not possible to do that because certain rates of progress must be maintained and the majority of the children must be brought to the logical conclusion of completing a programme within the school year. This often leaves a child who is less developed, or timorous, or suffering from some physical defect, under a double handicap. First, he has not completed the programme with everyone else and secondly, and far more important, is the fact that he feels that he is not of the same calibre as the ordinary child. That is something that is inclined to remain with him always. The fact is an inferiority complex is very often engendered at an early age in the national schools.

Furthermore, this provision of extra teachers, or the lowering of the average, will give to the vast majority of the children, who attend the primary schools and for whom education finishes there, a better chance of attaining a standard which they ought to attain when they are leaving and a better chance to live a more useful and fuller life. That is something which would be of immense benefit to themselves as individuals and to the nation as a whole.

In regard to primary schools, it is a matter for congratulation that we are replacing so many of the schools that needed to be replaced for quite a long time. When the Estimate for Public Works was before the House recently, the Parliamentary Secretary gave details in that respect. On that occasion, I took the opportunity of pointing out that while the rate of progress is good, at the same time, with our present rate, it would be six to eight years before we could complete that programme if no other schools were to be added in the meantime. Deputy Faulkner referred to the fact that it might be useful if the teaching staff were invited to give their opinions on the lay-out of buildings and so on for school premises. I have no doubt that would be very useful.

There is another point to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention, that is, the question of the amount of accommodation to be provided when new schools are being erected. The Minister and the Department will be aware that in cases where new schools have been erected, the necessity has often arisen within a short time for extra accommodation. In some cases, the old buildings have had to be used again in order to accommodate the pupils requiring accommodation. It is my own view that it would be preferable to have an empty room available in a new school to meet an increase in the numbers of the younger people. Then they would not have to go back, as unfortunately happens at the present time, to an old building which has gone out of commission. I do not know whether it is possible to do that but when new buildings are contemplated it is something which should be looked into locally to see whether the population in the area would justify the provision of an extra room at the initial stage of the building.

Deputy Faulkner also referred to the question of the facilities provided in the schools and mentioned television and so on. That is very much in the future so far as the country schools are concerned. Perhaps Dublin in the near future may look forward to this service but in the country generally we cannot expect that it will be available for some years. In new schools, the question of providing something in the nature of visual aids might be considered. Children take very naturally and very readily to aids and certainly it would be of great benefit both to them and to the teaching staff, if such aids were available. Films of an educational type might be shown to them; particularly in relation to history and geography, it is something that would be of great benefit to them if they are able to see places of interest in their own country which they may never have the opportunity of visiting and see factories both for home industries and industries of outside countries with which we have contact and whose goods we have to import. It would make these subjects more interesting and alive for the pupils in the schools.

With regard to the aids being provided for Irish schools and colleges, it is in line with the policy at present that the emphasis should be on labhairt na Gaeilge. It is refreshing to find that young people take readily to this association during the summer time in an atmosphere where they speak the language and in which they have their songs and their ceilithe and live for a month together either in the Gaeltacht itself or in the Breac-Ghaeltacht. In my own constituency, the very admirable Comhar Chumhann Ide Naomtha has made available to the people three schools which carry on for this work. I think it is very creditable and praiseworthy. The help given to such schools is money well spent. It brings a good return and is one of the ways in which, at a small cost, the speaking of the language can be popularised.

In regard to post-primary education, the child goes either to a secondary school or a vocational school. This is a matter which our people would need to examine carefully and on which they must make up their minds as to which type of education is more beneficial for the child. I do not know whether we are developing a sufficient bias in regard to the value of technical education in the country areas. In the cities and the larger towns these schools are readily available but in country areas and in my own constituency, in particular, that is not so. Although we have secondary schools, even in the small towns, vocational schools are not sufficiently numerous. A vocational school in Rathkeale is nearing completion and I was glad to see recently the Minister sanctioned plans for a vocational school at Kilmallock and, having regard to the size of this town, with a population of almost 2,000 people, I hope the erection of that school will not be unduly delayed. I notice that it is planned to build a four-roomed school; whether that is sufficient to meet the needs is doubtful. The local representatives, at any rate, do not think so. They think that a four-roomed school will not meet the situation in regard to Kilmallock.

The extension of vocational schools in that constituency and throughout the country is something to which we ought to give more impetus. There are many other centres in my constituency, which is the area for which I can speak best, where the people are ready and willing to avail of vocational education but for whom the facilities are not available unless the child is to travel a distance of six or seven miles. It is only human that young people should find it exciting, for the first few months perhaps, to travel that distance but as time goes on they would probably find it disagreeable to have to make that journey to obtain that type of education.

The training provided in these schools, the training of the hands, the training in various trades and the technical knowledge and skill which boys and girls can acquire are highly desirable particularly in this age when there is a greater necessity for technical staff in factories and in the country generally. This is the age of science and technical training and while it is necessary to send young people abroad for technical training, quite an amount of preliminary training could be done in our technical schools and, where the facilities are available, that is being done admirably.

A large number of children on leaving primary school proceed to secondary school and to the leaving certificate. At the end of that period, having completed their secondary education, both the pupil and the parent are faced with the problem of choosing a career. Some will go to the University but for others the opportunities are limited at that stage and consequently, and unfortunately, a large number of these young people, our richest asset, leave us to earn a living abroad. There is an opening at an earlier stage for funnelling some of these candidates to technical training. This would be of immense benefit in providing the country with trained technical staff which is urgently required and which could be the basis for an expanding economy. It would result in trained technical staff being more readily available to people who are prepared to start industries, people who would thus be encouraged to site these industries in the rural areas.

In many cases, industries are centred in Dublin and Cork for various reasons, one being, I suppose, because they are near the source of import or near a large potential market. However, at other times the excuse given is that near the cities it is easier to find people who are technically trained than in the rural areas. That disadvantage from which the rural areas suffer would disappear if technical training were given to people in these areas.

The recent effort in regard to the winter agricultural schools is a step in the right direction. It is a revival of what I remember as a very young person, night schools which were attended by people in the area and at which they acquired an education in agricultural subjects. If our young people are to remain on the land and if increased production is to be achieved, giving them a living which will induce them to remain there, they will certainly need all the technical aids which an educational system can provide. I hope that will be extended so that, in every area, there will be available to the young people the necessary staff to give them all the technical help and advice they need at least during the winter period of the year.

The standard of our secondary education is high. It has been stepped up year by year. I spent five years at a secondary school and I certainly would not care to attempt to answer the questions which young people are called on to answer at Leaving Certificate standard today. In regard to examinations at the present time, not all the problems set in the paper will be answered. There will certainly be some set which will beat even the best.

Our standards of examinations are as high as, if not higher than, the standards anywhere else. The secondary school pupil has to be examination-conscious, too — too examination-conscious, to my mind. I think that what is happening in regard to our standards is that we have raised them so high that we have reached the stage where pupils must become ever better. That is very creditable, but there is not sufficient time for making education as liberal as it ought to be. Pupils ought to be trained in the secondary schools in such a way that, when they leave, they will have the confidence to face the world in which they have to live.

I want to deal now with the number of these who leave the country. They come into competition with their counterparts across the water. They have to face an interview which will decide who will get a post. I have no doubt about their knowledge but will they display self-confidence when facing three interviewers? Have they got that deportment and that amount of general knowledge which will enable them to justify their undoubted ability?

Very often you will hear uninformed criticism in respect of schools inasmuch as they are compared one with another. It is pointed out that one school has good results and another has not such good results. What counts is the finished product coming out of the schools. For that reason, we ought not to push this business of examinations too far. Many of the courses are so wide that the time of the teachers and the pupils has to be given entirely to what for want of a better term I would call the cramming of knowledge.

I mentioned on a previous occasion the difficulty in regard to finding suitable texts, particularly in regard to history. Let us take some of the courses in history, particularly Courses 2 and 4 which are concerned with European history in the periods 1400-1600 and 1763-1850. The first period covers the Reformation. There are books available dealing with that period but they are not readily available. Some of the books available give a biased historical account of that period. In its general policy with regard to making texts available, I think the Department and the Minister might see that something is done in regard to the history programme in order to make more readily available books which will give a more unbiased account of these periods of European history than the ones available at present.

In regard to the National Museum and the National Gallery and particularly in regard to the amount of space available there for exhibits, I am sure the Minister, the Department and every Deputy would wish that the plans in contemplation for the enlargement of this House might permit of space being found for some of our national treasures in the Museum and the Art Gallery.

The educational tours which children at present are making to Dublin and to other centres throughout the country constitute a very valuable experience for them. The children have learned a lot since they started to make these tours not only by way of geography but by way of appreciation of the countryside and its life. They have learned to appreciate some of our industries in the cities of Dublin, Cork, and Limerick. Those who came to Dublin learned something at first hand about our history from the national treasures which are preserved here. It is very desirable that some place should be available in which these treasures could be displayed. At the moment some are not so readily accessible as one would wish. They should be readily available to the general public.

The figures which the Minister quoted in relation to the number of pupils in schools, the number of schools being built, the courses being provided for teachers and others, are very heartening. Education has been a continuing process and this system whereby the Minister and his officials are brought into closer contact for purposes of consultation with others interested in teaching has been of immense benefit from every point of view. The preparation of our young people to take their place in adult life is most important. It is vital that they should be both trained and disciplined to face the future confidently and take their place in the kind of world that seems to be evolving. If the system of consultation and co-operation is carried to its logical conclusion, we can, I think, hope for nothing but benefit all round.

Mr. Desmond

The Minister referred to the availability of more trained teachers. I should like to know the number of trained teachers who came out of the training schools last year. How many of them are at the moment in employment here? How many of them succeeded in getting posts in this country? Did some have to leave the country? Can the Minister give us some idea now of the number of posts which will be available this year for the young men and women leaving our training colleges as qualified teachers?

The Minister referred to the increased use of oral Irish. I congratulate the Minister on his approach to this matter. I believe this is the one way in which we can make Irish used more extensively on a truly co-operative basis as between children and teachers and, ultimately, parents. Results are apparently very satisfactory. I believe that in a few years the present objection to so-called compulsory Irish will fade more and more into the background because of the increased use of the language as the result of the new system. I regard the Minister's approach in the matter as both sensible and statesmanlike.

The Minister gave us some interesting statistics about the teaching of Irish in the schools. Leaving out the 18 schools which may qualify in the near future, the Minister told us that Irish is used as the medium of instruction, in some or in all subjects, in 244 secondary schools. He told us that Irish is the medium of instruction in all subjects in 81 schools. There is then a balance left of 169 schools. Is any Irish taught in these 169 secondary schools?

Constant complaint is made by parents down the country whose children attend the national schools. The parents complain that children must learn Irish there whilst those who are lucky enough to be able to attend secondary schools can avoid learning Irish. I am not challenging the Minister in any respect but I should like information as to whether Irish is taught in the 169 schools to which I have referred. What is happening in these schools in regard to Irish? Can certain favoured parents, who think Irish is beneath them, send their boys and girls to secondary schools in which they need not learn Irish? I hope the Minister will clarify the position on that matter when he comes to reply.

The Minister referred to the possibility of increasing the number of scholarships for the Gaeltacht. That is a step in the right direction, but there is another side to the picture. I have been told that in parts of the west the only day on which one will hear the children speaking Irish is the day the inspector is coming down. In areas, which are not classified as Gaeltacht, in west Cork and in other counties, where there is no financial incentive and no question of an inspector coming down ready to give a grant to children speaking Irish, there is quite a lot of Irish spoken. I think these areas are entitled to some little encouragement. There is more Irish being used to-day in Cork city and county, and in other counties, than at any time in the recent past.

Why not give some encouragement to the children in these areas? It may not be possible to do anything this year, but, perhaps, next year the Minister might be in a position to increase the number of scholarships still further, not forgetting the areas to which I have referred. The children from these areas may go to the Gaeltacht for summer courses and enjoy the céilithe and other amusements, but the fact of the matter is that they also patronise céilithe in their own areas. They get no benefits and yet they are improving the position of the language by their enthusiasm, and all without the incentives given in other more privileged areas.

The Minister had some very good information for us on page 2 in relation to the number of new schools and schools reconstructed. As Deputy Jones said, that is a healthy sign. It means much to us in the rural areas to see the disgraceful old buildings replaced by new schools. But, could we have a new approach to the matter of building or repairing schools? Could the Minister bring about a better degree of co-operation between the managers' association, the teachers' organisation and the local people?

I believe that if we could have in each parish a local committee cooperating to bring about improvement in the national schools, the State would be relieved of the very heavy burden of expense it has to bear at present. Most people in these areas are tied by tradition to the national school and I believe that if the public were made aware that money was needed for essential improvements, a great degree of co-operation could be achieved. At present you have, at times, the managers trying to get the Department to move and, at other times, the Department trying to get the managers to move. Sometimes it is hard to know which is the slower. To be fair to the Department, I know that in many cases they were not to blame, but on occasions they were. I am sure the present Minister would be able to get that degree of co-operation to which I refer and thus bring greater benefits to the pupils of our schools.

The Minister, on page 10, dealt with vocational schools. Deputy Jones stressed the importance of these schools, and the results in Dublin, Cork and other centres show how important vocational education is. However, much remains to be done in the various counties. Deputy Jones told us the position in his constituency and I would say the same thing applies to mine. Since the State contributes generously to county vocational committees a thorough investigation should be made of the approach of these committees to dealing with the problem of providing new schools. I have county Cork particularly in mind. The Minister has done the best he can for this county, basing his decisions on reports forwarded by the vocational committee. But the Minister should not be satisfied to deal with the problem merely on that basis.

If we set up commissions we should follow up their recommendations. It has been made clear that in many counties we are not making any worth while effort to develop vocational education. It is galling for me to see hundreds of boys and girls in my own constituency far removed from a technical school and to see the authorities in charge bluntly refusing to ask the Minister's co-operation to provide the facilities required by those boys and girls. The Minister should not be satisfied with the reports submitted to him on the numbers of existing schools and the numbers of pupils attending them. We have seen new schools built on many previous occasions and within five, six or 10 years additional accommodation had to be provided because of the increasing numbers of pupils on the rolls. Very often lack of foresight on the part of the Department caused trouble in the past, and I hope it will not apply while the present Minister is in office.

I would ask the Minister to reconsider the whole question of the cost of these school buildings. I know it is easy to suggest an expenditure of £30,000, £40,000 or even £50,000 on a vocational school in a rural area. But £20,000 would go a long way in many cases if he concentrated on providing extra accommodation and built in the ordinary manner rather than putting up the palatial buildings we have seen in some places. Certain individuals outside the Minister's control may be interested in having expensive buildings because their fees are based on the cost. What the rural areas require is the continuation of primary education and that means vocational education.

On page 10 the Minister made a very true statement. He said:

The rapid growth in the attendance at all forms of whole-time post-primary courses of education shows clearly that our problem is not to find ways of compelling parents to keep their children at school for a longer period but to provide as quickly as possible the facilities which are readily being availed of.

That, in itself, sums up what I am trying to say. The more money we make available for vocational schools in rural areas, the better we are providing for these boys and girls.

Parents will be faced with one headache in the near future. In recent announcements, we have been told that there will not be many openings for young boys from secondary schools into the State service. I do not wish to discuss this matter fully on this Estimate but I feel we are coming to the stage where State employment is not being offered to the cream of our youth, those who get into that service by their own ability. If that channel of employment is closed to them, we had better ask ourselves in what direction shall we move now? I think it would be well worth while in such circumstances to encourage an advance in technical school training, but we must remember that at present many young boys and girls in rural areas may have to travel anything from 15 to 20 miles a day to attend their nearest technical school.

That is a big problem but, please God, the Minister will be able to tackle it on the right lines. I do not say that we expect him to solve it in a short time but, if he sets the proper headline, then it will not be easy for any successor of his to depart from it. He has told us that some 15 per cent. of total State expenditure is directed towards education and I know he is doing his best in that regard. It is not for him to be able to demand and get all the money he would like for education, but I believe there are other Departments of State that could have their budgets cut by 50 per cent., and the money thus saved provided for education. Even at that it would not be the maximum amount necessary but at least it would be a good day's work.

There are two other points I should like to mention and I draw particular attention to an item singled out by Deputy Jones, namely, visual aid as a method of advancing education. I would not go so far as to speak of television being provided in the schools but I do think that short film strips which could be shown in rural schools would be of immense benefit. The Minister has told us what sum of money is provided for the Film Institute and I think it should be utilised for the provision of educational films in the schools.

It is not so long since we had a discussion in this House on the question of compulsory Irish. I do not intend to go into it now because I think the full answer was given in that debate, but we all know that compulsion was essential when we ourselves were going to school, whether in Irish, English, mathematics or anything else. On the other hand, we know that children of school age often show an extraordinarily imaginative sense of values and I think that if they could be encouraged in this direction by visual aids, it would be of wonderful value to them. It might remove the drab feeling of school days some of us had, and if the Minister could do something in that direction during the coming 12 months, I believe he would be doing a good job.

It was heartening to note the co-operation which the Department of Education is offering towards agriculture. The lectures and agricultural sessions which it sponsors have been of vital benefit in rural areas and it is up to the people themselves to make the best use of them. By using their brains instead of their muscles, as has been so often the case, they will be able to make a greater success of their efforts and show more gain from them. The benefits of these courses provided by the cooperation of the Department can do more for the country than possibly agriculture itself.

However, in that connection, there is one illustration I should like to give. I was recently talking to a young man who had to leave the country after taking his Degree in Agricultural Science. There were seven or eight others who graduated with him and they all had to emigrate. I do not raise this just to draw attention to emigration but it is a fact that these young men had to leave Cork—they had taken their Degrees in University College, Cork—and go to countries outside Ireland. The young man I speak of had an interview with a leading firm in Dublin but, instead of examining him on the course he had completed in agricultural science, the gentleman who interviewed him abused him for wasting his time taking such a course.

I think the Minister should concentrate on putting a little pressure on such firms to employ young Irish graduates. These firms often have benefits conferred on them by the State and if they would only employ Irish graduates, it would help the country as a whole. With the co-operation of other Departments, the Minister should seek to encourage them to employ young Irish scientists rather than that they should have to emigrate.

The last point I wish to deal with covers the educational tours provided for young boys and girls in rural areas. These tours began last year and are increasing. Again it may seem that I am just trying to ask the Minister for more money for everything but, in considering how best to spend the money available, the Minister should try to encourage these tours. I have spoken to many of the young boys and girls who have taken part in them and they have all expressed their delight. Many of them for the first time travelled far from their own homes and saw things they would never have thought of in their own localities, and when they returned to school, what they had seen was an incentive to them to study harder.

There is one snag, however. On two or three of these tours, the boys and girls were looked after by their teachers, and the bus company officials were most helpful, but they were treated in a disgraceful manner in some hotels where they went for their meals. I think the Minister should inquire into this, with the assistance of other Departments. I repeat they were not unfairly treated by his Department, by their teachers or by the bus company; it was others who were to blame.

In conclusion, I wish success to the Minister in his policy of concentrating more on the use of oral Irish and I am certain it will be shown to be a valuable policy.

Mr. Russell

First of all, I should like to join with the other Deputies in congratulating the Minister on the progress shown in the building of new schools and the reconstruction of old schools. Although the pace may not be as rapid as we would like and there are still many hundreds of unsuitable and insanitary schools throughout the country, generally speaking we can say that the problem is being tackled in a realistic and progressive way.

The figures the Minister has set out in regard to the attendances in the various branches of education are very illuminating. If we take the basic figure for the primary schools, which are largely the national schools, of something over 500,000 pupils, and relate it to the number of pupils attending secondary and vocational schools, it gives a fair picture of the advances made in regard to primary and secondary education. According to the Minister's figures, it would appear that one child in every seven attains to a secondary school which compared with educational progress outside this country, is moderate. It is true that elsewhere the ratio is higher but we have been making reasonably rapid advance to the ideal where every child should have the opportunity of further education after reaching the age of 14 years. But, if we then look at the figure of the number of pupils at vocational schools, the picture is far from reassuring or encouraging. I should like to endorse the sentiments expressed by Deputy Desmond and Deputy Jones, urging the Minister to greater concentration of effort on the expansion of scientific and technical education.

According to the Minister's figures, something over 23,000 pupils are attending vocational schools at the present time, that is to say the proportion of primary school children who go on to attend continuation classes at a vocational or technical school is substantially less than one in twenty. That proportion is far too low if we are to progress either industrially or agriculturally. It behoves the Minister to give his very earnest effort to substantially increasing the amenities, not only in the cities and towns but, as has been pointed out, in the rural areas, so that children can get vocational education without having to travel very long distances.

As the Minister is aware, there are plans before his Department for a very substantial expansion in the technical school buildings in Limerick City and I would urge on him to give those plans his sanction and encouragement so that they can be put into operation at the earliest possible date. I know it is inevitable that, between the day on which the Minister gives his blessing and the day on which the school opens, many months and in some cases many years must pass but, having regard to the particular problem in Limerick—the hundreds of children that yearly have to be turned away from the various classes and the rapid expansion in industrial employment, particularly at Shannon airport—I would ask the Minister to make a special effort to deal expeditiously with those plans for expanded technical education in the city of Limerick.

The figures shown to the Minister will indicate that in and near Limerick there has been a tremendous urge on the part of young boys and girls to avail of technical and vocational education and I certainly would be most appreciative if the Minister would do all in his power to get those plans through and executed rapidly.

Although it is not specifically mentioned in his report, I should like to make reference to what is commonly known as the one day a week school. I sometimes wonder if that serves any useful function. By the parents it is regarded very often as a nuisance because it precludes the young boy or girl from getting employment. The theory of the thing is good. The idea of this modest effort at continuing education is a good one but, in practice, from my knowledge of its working, I do not think it has lived up to the expectations of those who thought it out. I would ask the Minister to discuss with the experts in his Department and with his officials whether or not it has been a worthwhile experiment.

I suppose the ideal would be that children would stay on at school until a later age, although personally I am not one of those who subscribe to having a fixed extension of the present school leaving age. I agree with the viewpoint put forward by the Minister and his predecessors that it is far more important to provide facilities for extended education rather than to bring in a law stating that the school leaving age shall be raised to 15 or 16 years of age, as the case may be. The ideal at which to aim would probably be that every child would have the benefit of reaching, say, intermediate standard and would hold an intermediate certificate on leaving school.

On the question of the intermediate certificate standard, I think that 15 or 16 years is the age when a decision should be made in regard to the future education of the child, whether the boy or girl of 15 or 16 years of age is to continue education in a secondary school that gives classical or liberal education or whether the boy's or the girl's bent is on scientific and technical lines. That is the stage at which a more sensible and sure decision could be made. It is in that regard that an expanded vocational educational system could play a very important part.

There is a feeling, which I mentioned previously in this House, that there is a social distinction between secondary school education per se and education in a vocational school, more commonly referred to as the “tech.” I should like to see that distinction gradually removed. I should like to see technical or vocational education brought generally within the orbit of secondary education so that the question would not be whether a child's parents could afford to send him to a secondary school, either a day school or a boarding school, but that the child's ability should decide whether he should continue liberal or classical education or whether it would be better to finish in a scientific or technical institution.

During the course of the long debate on the question of the transfer of University College, Dublin, to the new site in Belfield, the Minister mentioned that there was a mission rung—I think that was the expression he used—in our system of education. He was referring to the fact that at present it is not possible for a boy or girl to go from a vocational school to a University and he proposed to supply the missing rung. I was hoping that the Minister would make some reference to that in his speech this evening and I am wondering why he did not do so. Perhaps, when he is replying to this debate, he will give us more information as to his ideas on that subject because it is vitally important that the second branch of continuation education, that is, the vocational branch, should be able to offer the same facilities to the able boy or girl as the secondary schools offer at the present time—not, indeed, that those opportunities are as wide as they should be. There again, the Minister has plenty of room for further investigation to see how the opportunities for University education for boys or girls leaving secondary schools and/or vocational schools could be expanded.

The Minister is aware that we have a particular problem in Limerick. At this stage I do not want to enter into the arguments in favour of having a Constituent College of the University established in Limerick. The Minister has decided that this matter is to be examined by a commission which he proposes to set up very soon and on which I hope the Limerick area will be represented, but I think that even if this commission were to find in favour of such a College in Limerick, it would, of necessity, be a number of years before such a College was in a position to open its doors to students. In the interim, the pressing problem of the large number of secondary school children who cannot hope to enter a University remains, and I appeal to the Minister to give urgent consideration to augmenting the present scheme of State, county council and city council scholarships. The total of these scholarships, for obvious reasons, is miserably inadequate and I ask the Minister to do something substantial to augment it.

I think I am correct in my figures in saying that whereas generally in the State something like one in every ten or 12 boys and girls enjoys an opportunity of University education, in the Limerick area, something like one in 50 is the corresponding figure. In recognising that problem, I think the Minister would be doing a great service to the community in that area if he were to augment the scholarships. I thought the Minister might refer to the suggestion—I do not think it has been adopted yet but it certainly has been mooted—that the final year of the teachers' course should be spent in a University. I hope when the Minister is replying he will refer to that because it would have a very important bearing on the whole question of education, one in which the teachers themselves have a very deep interest.

I want to try to enlist the Minister's support for the establishment in Limerick of courses for the Higher Diploma in Education. As the Minister is aware, at present these courses are confined to University centres, with the exception, I think, of Maynooth College. This means that a teacher who wants to get the Higher Diploma must, at his own expense, travel from Limerick to Galway or to Cork to do his course there. I am aware of cases in Limerick of teachers teaching for a number of years who, because of physical and financial inability to make the journey of 60 or 70 miles to either of the nearer Universities, have not had an opportunity of taking out that Diploma. Some two or three years ago, a committee, of which I was chairman, made an effort to establish such courses in Limerick but I am sorry to say that due to lack of co-operation—to put it very mildly—from one of the Constituent Colleges, the effort fell through.

On the question of the Irish language, while I am not an Irish speaker and my knowledge of it is extremely limited, I often wonder why those who obviously are enthusiasts and strongly in favour of it, refer to the "revival" of Irish. I think this is a most discouraging term. Immediately, it plants in my mind the assumption that those who talk in that fashion are on the defensive. Largely due to the efforts of the teachers in the past 30 years, I think, at least in the schools, the language has been revived and nowadays we should talk about extension of the use of the Irish that is there, even though it is largely dormant once the children leave school.

I agree with those who expressed the opinion that if Irish is to be extended into everyday use, it must have the active sympathy particularly of the adult population and even more particularly of the parents. No doubt, at the moment, parents are not sympathetic, for several reasons, to the advancement of Irish as the spoken tongue, not necessarily because the parents are against the speaking of Irish but for many of them English is the language of the home and any effort to extend the use and teaching of Irish must take that factor into account.

A further fact to be taken into account is that in the middle of the twentieth century, it must be absolutely accepted that everybody should speak good English. By saying that, I do not mean that they must necessarily speak bad Irish: the two are not incompatible. It would be wrong to endeavour to extend the use of Irish at the expense of English—we must have both—and in this world which is getting smaller every day, I personally should like to see a third and fourth language in which children could be competent, such as French, German and possibly in the future, even Russian.

It seems to me that if Irish is to be extended, or indeed if it is to be saved at all, the first task should be the preservation of the Gaeltacht to which several other speakers have referred. If the Gaeltacht is not saved—and, to my mind, that is a matter more of. economics than a cultural problem— the chances of ever extending. Irish as the normally spoken tongue will vanish. With all the best wishes in the world, I do not think Irish, can be revived as a spoken tongue outside the Gaeltacht, if the Gaeltacht is allowed to perish.

Deputy Desmond mentioned the Minister's reference to the figure of 15 per cent. of our current Budget devoted to education. It is a high figure for a small country and a comparatively poor one, but I agree with Deputy Desmond, and I cannot help feeling that we certainly expend millions of pounds on less worthy objectives which we could cut down and thus devote an even larger percentage of current income to education. I feel that any money spent on education is not wasted. You cannot term it productive or economic expenditure, but, in the long run, I think we must spend and continue to spend an even larger proportion of our national income on the education of our young people.

So much depends on it that I would support any Minister who would be prepared to take a strong, courageous line and substantially increase the annual outlay on education, but, I should like to emphasise, particularly on scientific and technical education. So much depends on that. Many other countries of the world have advanced because they had the requisite technical and scientific knowledge but I am afraid, unless we give more emphasis to that side of education, we may fall behind in the endeavour to make this country prosperous and productive.

Mr. Moloney

I should like to join with other Deputies who have spoken this evening in congratulating the Minister on the very satisfactory state of affairs he has reported to us here. It must be very pleasing for the Minister, who is introducing his first main Estimate, to be able to give such a very comprehensive and, moreover, satisfactory report on all fronts.

The Minister pointed out that our educational services were costing approximately 15 per cent. of the cost of the entire Supply Services of the country. Deputy Russell referred to that point. I am of the same opinion as the Deputy in that regard that our expenditure on education is one of our main necessaries. We should spend what is appropriate and adequate on the service of education as we do on Defence or any other service which the Government provide.

It is proper for us to have a good educational system and to be able to prove to the world that the system is good. We can truly say that with the advances that have taken place in recent years, we have, so far as primary education goes—and also vocational education as far as we can proceed with it—the finest system that obtains in any part of Western Europe. As a matter of fact, I have that assurance in this regard from foreigners who have visited this country in recent times.

Primary education for the year under review cost approximately £10½ million; more than 50 per cent. of the total expenditure under all the headings. I am very pleased to find from the Minister's statement in regard to that aspect of our educational services that very notable improvements have taken place. I should like to congratulate the Minister and the Department on the very satisfactory relations that seem to exist between the teaching profession and the Minister, officers and members of the staff of the Department. The very cordial relations which happily exist now are due in no small measure to the steps the Minister and his predecessor have taken within the past two or three years to get rid of the centuries of red tape and of certain objectionable practices which existed in the Department for many years with regard to checking up on teachers particularly in the matter of supervision. All concerned will agree that that was a step in the right direction, more particularly since it tends to generate a better degree of cooperation between the Department and the people it employs.

The Minister indicated in his statement that the number of teachers becoming available is increasing and as a result of that increase—which was approximately 130 during the past year —he has been able to improve the enrolment average units. This ensures that the classes which the teachers have to teach will now be reduced in numbers in many cases as against what they stood at some years ago. It is understandable, of course, that such a reduction cannot be made effective in all schools because of lack of classroom accommodation. The more classes there are, naturally the greater will be the number of rooms required and, possibly, it may be some time before the Department can catch up with all the requirements. Meantime, there is a satisfactory approach to this whole question to meet the complaints which were made not only by the teachers but by parents and parents' organisations, for some years, that the classes which the teachers were obliged to control were too large in numbers. The fact that that reduction will gradually take place is something about which we can all be very pleased.

In that regard it occurred to me that with a sufficiency of teachers now more or less becoming available, the Minister might examine the feasibility, at least, of extending in some small way the scope of the existing curriculum of the primary schools by the introduction of rural science or agricultural science subjects in the case of boys, and domestic science for girls and, more particularly, physical training for boys and girls.

The people who went to school 50 years ago tell me that in those days these subjects were taught in the national schools. Evidently in the course of their training at that time the teachers were trained specially in order that they would be in a position to impart, at least, an elementary knowledge of rural science, or agricultural science as it is now called. A half hour or two half hours a week were given to rural science and domestic science. It was very important in those days when there was no other provision, generally speaking, to impart that kind of instruction.

It is much more important now because a course of elementary domestic science for girls in national schools will be most helpful to them in the continuation of their studies at a later date, whether those studies are undertaken in vocational schools where domestic and rural science are taught extensively, or in secondary schools. If an elementary course in such subjects in the national schools could be fitted in to half an hour or an hour a week, it would be very important. It is not too much to expect, once there is a sufficiency of teachers, that they might be prepared to cooperate with the Department if the Minister, in his wisdom, thought it desirable to provide for such subjects in the curriculum.

In the case of physical training, there is a difficulty. I understand that in recent years teachers did not get any extended course or any general course, in physical training. I say that the latter is a subject that should have a very high priority in the curricula of the primary schools. It is so important, in my opinion, that I would be prepared at this stage to suggest to the Minister that he should introduce it as an experiment. I feel that if there is a difficulty about getting teachers to undertake the necessary training in that connection at the moment, the instructors in the Army and the Garda might be asked to undertake this work, with of course the co-operation of the Ministers concerned—the Minister for Justice in the case of the Garda and the Minister for Defence in the case of the Army personnel.

The Minister referred to the future recruitment of lay teachers. I want to congratulate him on the decision he has taken to change the system of recruitment generally in so far as preparatory colleges are concerned. The Minister has explained to us the original purpose of the policy which prevailed in the setting up of colleges in the 1925-30 period. It is quite true for the Minister to say—and it is by no means an exaggeration—that that purpose no longer exists. I think that is putting it very mildly. In my opinion, the time is long past when that purpose could be claimed to exist. We have now reached the stage that all our students passing the Leaving Certificate standard have a sufficient knowledge of Irish to be able to prove that, in any continuation course they may pursue, they will be able to take-instruction, moreover in the training for teaching, through the medium of Irish.

Mr. Dillon

Do I understand the Deputy to say that anybody who passes the Leaving Certificate is equipped to teach through the medium of Irish?

Mr. Moloney

In the case of any persons who now attain Leaving Certificate standard, whether they got it through a preparatory college or through the ordinary secondary school, their knowledge of Irish is satisfactory and requisite under the circumstances. That is my opinion. That is one reason, apart from the others the Minister has given, why the revision in policy in connection with the preparatory colleges should take place. There are many other reasons which the Minister has not stated and perhaps it would not be appropriate to go into them now.

There is one thing which I should like to bring to the Minister's notice, that is, the scheme of scholarships which he has suggested here as an alternative. If I read the Minister's statement correctly, it occurs to me that the Minister proposes to confine the scholarships which are an alternative to the concession that existed for pupils from Gaeltacht areas to these preparatory colleges to what is known as Gaeltacht pupils. In that connection, I should like to congratulate the Minister that he has seen fit to give that degree of preference or priority —you might describe it as such—to Gaeltacht areas. However, I am afraid that, unless he can go a little beyond that, he will find himself in a certain amount of trouble.

Heretofore, the places in these preparatory colleges were not exclusively held and filled by entrants from Gaeltacht areas as such. The competition which took place for the entrants to the preparatory colleges covered all parts of the country. In practice, such successful entrants came from various areas outside the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. Under the new arrangement, as I read it in the Minister's statement this afternoon, it appears to me that there will be no scholarships, at the moment, anyhow, for those latter pupils, whereas there will be scholarships available for the students from Gaeltacht areas.

If the Minister pursues that line of policy, he will be taking from pupils in non-Gaeltacht areas something which they had already. They had the advantage of competing for a scholarship. If they obtained it, they had the right of entry, provided they were in the order of merit that warranted that right of entry to a preparatory training college. While in that preparatory training college, the cost of maintenance and tuition was in certain respects subsidised by the State. In many cases such expenditure was not recouped.

As can be seen from the Minister's statement, it is proposed now to close the preparatory colleges as such. That, in future, will mean that students from non-Gaeltacht areas, who wish to avail of secondary education, will have to attend ordinary secondary schools without any assistance by way of scholarship. In the case of poor children, that might not always be possible. It is liable to take from quite a number of pupils, most of whom are children of poor parents, the advantage which they heretofore had in the matter of attending preparatory colleges.

I should like the Minister to look into that point. If I am wrong in my interpretation, I shall be happy to hear that that is so. If the new arrangement as I see it takes effect, I suggest the Minister might do something about it without delay.

The Minister has not indicated how it is proposed to operate these preparatory colleges in future. At the moment, these buildings and equipment are the property of the State through the Department of Education. I understand that a lease has more or less been given to religious orders to take care of State requirements and perform such duties as are assigned to them by the Department of Education. If the colleges do not continue as hertofore, I take it that as the Minister indicated later in his statement, they will become ordinary secondary schools—he said "Grade A" secondary schools.

I expect that the existing religious management that controls these schools will get the opportunity of leasing them on the terms and conditions which will be prescribed by the Department for the future and that they will operate them more or less subject to such conditions as the Department may see fit to apply. I do not see any other way in which the State could possibly dispose of such institutions. They have been erected at considerable cost and maintained at great cost down the years. They are very fine establishments.

I was very pleased to note from the Minister's report that, in addition to this scheme of scholarships he has suggested for Gaeltacht pupils, four places instead of two will be reserved in future in the domestic science training college. I think the number four is small. I suggest the Minister might review that position if he gets an opportunity of doing so during the year. Moreover, if he can effect savings in any other direction, I would ask him to try to apply any economies which he might find possible to increase substantially that number of four. The type of scholarship that is more or less being appreciated in recent years, particularly in Gaeltacht areas, is the domestic science scholarship. It is one that I think would be availed of and keenly competed for amongst students from the Gaeltacht areas.

The Minister indicated, with regard to the preparatory colleges, that in future they would be used as Grade A secondary schools. I did not know until now that there were any classifications of secondary schools. I take it that when the Minister indicates that these institutions will be classified Grade A—which, I take it, is the highest classification for such establishments—a number of other classifications are applicable to secondary schools. If that is so, it is desirable that the public should know something in that connection.

Mr. Dillon

Do the public not know something in that connection?

Mr. Moloney

No, they do not know that there is a classification.

Mr. Dillon

If they do not know it now, they never will.

Mr. Moloney

I should like the Minister to explain what classifications there are at the moment and generally what determines such classifications. The Minister dealt at some length with vocational technical education in Vote 36. Too much cannot be said on that particular matter. I am glad that speakers before me referred to many aspects of the vocational education system and referred to some of those aspects in great detail. Evidently the difficulty in regard to this whole system was that in years gone by it was difficult to get the people to appreciate the necessity of vocational education and that in the future—which is now— vocational education would play an important part in our industrial revival. While enrolments in the vocational schools are increasing substantially every year and the number of new vocational schools to give extra accommodation are being provided in a reasonably satisfactory manner, I am afraid we are not able to keep pace with this aspect of our educational system.

Undoubtedly the Department has had a most satisfactory system in regard to recruitment of future vocational teachers for some years past. What impresses me most about that system of recruitment is that it enables an ordinary boy, in the case of male appointment, to achieve his ambitions in the matter of being called for training. The standard of education generally is reasonably high but I know one boy who succeeded in being called to training as a manual instructor who had only a national school education. After leaving it, he went to the local vocational school and did a two years course and obtained a group certificate. He continued to attend the vocational school even when he was apprenticed in the motor trade. After three or four years as an apprentice in the motor trade, he succeeded, in a competitive examination, in being called for training as a metal work teacher. Now he is a trained teacher and is performing his duties satisfactorily.

The difficulty up to now was that the number of boys endeavouring to compete for this scheme of training was probably satisfactory but the standard of the applicants was not up to scratch. Up to recent years the Department generally had difficulty in finding the right material. That position is now satisfactory and the only problem at the moment is that it is difficult to get the right type of person to come along because of the inadequacy of the wages paid during the training period. It would be money well spent if the Minister could increase the existing allowances payable to trainees during the training period.

Another point in that connection is that the scheme of training has changed very little down the years. We have now reached the stage at which many young boys, particularly in regard to metal work, have to be more or less trained to work in a factory either in this country or abroad. It is doubtful if we have adjusted ourselves to that particular necessity in so far as we have not been training our teachers exactly along the lines on which they should be obliged to train the pupils of the present day. It would be a good idea if the Department of Education were able to arrange a course of even six months for trainee teachers on the Continent and particularly in those places from which we would be most likely to get industries. I understand that people coming here from European countries as well as the United States of America would be happy to facilitate the Department in that connection by taking the trainee teachers and giving them a course of practical instruction and experience in their factories abroad.

I submit that is a matter which the Minister should take care of with the least possible delay. Industrialists coming in here, I am happy to say, are inclined to recruit their staff through the auspices of the local vocational schools. The complaint which I have to make is that while students at vocational schools are reasonably well trained in metal work, they have not got the specialised training which would enable them to get maximum industrial production in a factory in a reasonable time. It means that in most cases they have to be taken to foreign countries from which these factory promoters have come and be trained there. The Department of Industry and Commerce, of course, provided financial assistance for such training expenses when the training course is arranged by the promoter of an industry here. I submit that if vocational teachers coming into the service of the Department now could be made to specialise in, that type of training during their own period of training, they could impart very useful instruction when they take over the management of classes in the various technical schools.

Another point which I should like to raise is in connection with school transport. I am very pleased to see in the Book of Estimates that the amount to be spent on subvention for school transport in the current financial year has been increased from £24,000 to £30,000. Six thousand pounds is a substantial increase but I feel that the Department should review the existing regulations applicable to transport schemes. The big difficulty about getting a transport scheme into operation is that a minimum number of pupils must be available in a particular locality before an application for a transport service can be sanctioned. Generally speaking, that is reasonable, but in the case of an isolated locality and one moreover in which there is a falling population, in rural areas particularly, it is very difficult in many desirable cases to get that minimum number of pupils to qualify for a service. The Minister should look into that aspect of the scheme and modify it a little.

There is also the question of grants to periodicals which are mentioned in the Book of Estimates—grants to periodicals published in Irish and newspapers publishing current news in Irish. That has increased since last year from £14,500 to £16,500. The names of the various periodicals and newspapers are not stated in the Book of Estimates but there is one periodical I hope the Minister will see fit to allocate a grant, that is, Amárach. The case for that paper has been made here for a number of years and I sincerely hope that the Minister has found it possible to give it a subvention during the current financial year.

Mr. Coogan

There is an increase of £1,000,000 in this Vote and one is prompted to ask if the finished product is as good as it has been in the past. I do not mean the product as put on the labour market or the professional market of the world but as regards moral standards. I do not rise as a preacher here but when one looks around to see the increase in vandalism one wonders why greater efforts are not made to instil a civic spirit into children.

The tendency nowadays amongst children is to think more of their rights than their duties, including respect for public or private property. The rule that prevents the use of the rod in the school has led to a great deal of that attitude. There has been too much emphasis on sparing the rod and thus the child is spoiled, so that there is vandalism and "teddy-boyism" we never had in the past. If the teacher only threatens a child for his good he is brought to court. Is it better to have the teacher in court or the child in court in years to come? The teacher should be protected and the rod should come back. No attention should be paid to crank associations whose members have not the courage even to sign their names but merely sign themselves "Children's Protection Association" or other fancy names.

In Galway city we requested the Garda Síochána to give short lectures on road safety to children. These lectures were greatly appreciated by the parents. These lectures should be extended to other urban areas throughout the country. I should like also to stress the importance of the inclusion of first aid in the curriculum of our school children. With our present-day tempo of life it is important that our young people should be capable of rendering this service to others.

While I realise it would not be easy to extend the school leaving age to 16, steps ought to be taken to implement that as soon as possible. The vocational schools have an important rôle to play in the training of children; in fact it has been suggested here that teachers should have a technical knowledge in connection with various industries. I doubt if you could have a specialist teacher for every factory set up. It may be important to get co-operation from the vocational school for the benefit of both industry and the boys or girls, as the case may be, but where you have specialised industry I doubt if you could have teachers to cope with the situation.

I notice a reduction of £5,000 in the grant to University College Galway. In connection with that University I should like to mention that there is a rule book given to students and I draw the Minister's attention to Section 5 on "Societies and Clubs" which states:

Except with the permission of the President of the College, students shall not play for any non-College team or club in any branch of athletics for which a college club exists.

That is an interference with the constitutional right of association guaranteed to citizens. This matter has been brought to my attention by certain sporting groups and I should like the Minister to ensure that students are allowed to exercise their right of choosing whatever association or club they wish to join or whatever game they wish to play.

I do not want to let the occasion go by without reminding the Minister that we are still alive to the need for the extension of the Faculty of Agriculture in Galway. The pressure from Limerick may have eased but we do not intend to let the problem fall by the wayside. There are other proposals which have gone to the Minister of which I suggest he should take note. The West is awake and will remain awake.

Another matter which I want the Minister to examine is the provision of a pension scheme for the laboratory technicians and other workers attached to the College. It is about time the scheme which operates in Cork and other places was applied in Galway. The Minister has made certain promises in relation to University College, Galway. We do not forget that he said he would set in train some rescue operations, as I think he put it, and I wish to remind him of that.

I understand there is a demand by workers for the extension of evening lectures at University College, Galway, and I recommend to the Minister to do everything he can to meet that demand. I understand also that there is a new approach to the question of the preparatory colleges and that the whole thing is subject to review. It is not without good reason that this has come to a head. I compliment the Minister who is going to award 80 scholarships to students from the Gaeltacht. It is a further step to meet a situation whereby students might be affected.

Rumour has it that Coláiste Éinde, Salthill, Galway, is to be closed. I should like the Minister to let me know what the intention is in regard to this college. There is another point I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister. It is, perhaps, a matter for the Board of Works but the Minister might pass it on to the Board of Works. The outside walls of Coláiste Éinde are anything but presentable for a college in a tourist area. I think the situation is one which calls for immediate attention.

In conclusion, I should like to congratulate the Minister on introducing his first Estimate. I should like, too, to stress the importance of the rod in the school. If no attention were paid to these crank associations, we might have a better class of citizen.

Mr. Sherwin

This Estimate is not a hobby-horse of mine. Nevertheless, there are some aspects of the Estimate upon which I wish to comment. On occasion, I have criticised the teaching of the Irish language. All of us who criticise the language are put down as shoneens and all that sort of thing. We are not supposed to be Irish; we have no patriotism. That, of course, is not the case. I, for one, am not opposed to the teaching of the Irish language but I happen to be concerned very much with human problems. For that reason I happen to be a rather keen student and as such I am interested in the problem of Partition.

While a great many people who are language enthusiasts are also staunch anti-Partitionists, I have the feeling that in going too far with the language they are making Partition more permanent. I am trying to assess the problem from every point of view. I can conceive an Irish officialdom here and an English officialdom in the North. As time goes on, one will not get a job here unless one knows the language. In the North one does not need to know any Irish. In the long run, we shall have two vested interests and how we are going to reconcile these two interests beats me.

I have the feeling that as each becomes what it wants to be, each will be more determined to keep further away from the other. That is one aspect of the matter. I have the feeling that if people shout about the language they become enthusiasts. That gives them a sort of monopoly as the majority will never want to be enthusiasts. In the long run, we shall get nowhere; we shall have an English-speaking Six Counties and officials here will speak Irish. They will get the higher jobs but the vast majority have no hope of obtaining the higher employment. They must be satisfied to speak English.

I am concerned very much with human problems. I am not like some people who seem to live in another world; I live in this world. I realise that the vast majority of the people here will be of the labouring class. Everyone cannot be clerical officers or tradesmen. There must be labourers —hewers of wood and drawers of water. The vast majority of the labouring classes will never want to speak the language. That is that.

I go round quite a lot and meet people and, except for an occasional few words in a bus, I never hear a single word of the language spoken by 60 or 70 per cent. of the people. I cannot see what all the shouting is about in regard to progress. Why, if there is progress, is the language not spoken among the ordinary people and the children on the streets? I never hear it.

I was in Finglas last week; part of Finglas is all "Irishised." The name of every street, except the main street, is in Irish. I was trying to find a certain place as I could not find my way. I have only a slight knowledge of the language. I asked children everywhere where such-and-such a place was and they did not know. I gave the Irish name and they could not tell me where the place was. The street I was seeking was only round the corner. I think the Minister ought to be satisfied with getting the children to speak Irish instead of wasting time asking them to write it. When they leave school they have only a smattering of English. I asked children to spell simple words in English and they could not do so. I am not against the language. With certain qualifications, I am all for it. I am certainly against it as a means of jobbery.

I said a few words here on the Estimate for the Department of Defence. A few words of what I said appeared in the newspapers. Someone wrote to me and said he would not vote for me again. I do not care whether he does or not. What I said was that Irish was not necessary. It did not denote military brilliance and neither does it. Let me quote an example from history. When Lincoln was trying to get generals to win battles, he could not find them among the élite. He had to get a drunk— General Grant. When he was criticised, he said he did not care because what he wanted was victories.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That scarcely arises on this Estimate.

Mr. Corish

The Intoxicating Liquor Bill.

Mr. Sherwin

It arises out of this. I am criticised for my attitude towards the language. In some respects I am entitled to criticise but that does not make me an opponent of the language. I have nothing more to say except that I think the Minister should spend more time endeavouring to have the children taught to speak the language and not mind about the writing of it.

I want to draw the Minister's attention to a certain place in Canada where French is the language and where English is not compulsory. There you have a situation where there is a lack of opportunity. Since English is not compulsory and English is spoken in the rest of Canada, the language question there injures the type of people I represent. When I say I am interested in human problems, there is a point in question in that particular portion of Canada.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m., Wednesday 25th, May, 1960.