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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 31 May 1960

Vol. 182 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 47—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."—(Deputy Cosgrave.)

I referred to the "Buy Irish" drive and the purchase of State cars. Cars have been bought by the State which were manufactured and assembled abroad. I want to reiterate that we should never buy any cars for State purposes except those which have been assembled at home.

I shall go back now to the question of the chipboard factory. I do not want any political kudos for it. The Minister and his colleagues are welcome to the kudos. I should be glad to have the Minister down to open the factory, if ever that should happen. The proposition as it was explained to the meeting in Waterford last Saturday night appears to be a splendid one. The manner in which the entrepreneurs, the promoters, have gone about their business is above reproach. It cannot be said they have shown any preference for either my colleague, Deputy Kyne, or myself. As a matter of fact, when I was leaving Waterford today, it was strongly rumoured they were about to bring on to their board a prominent Fianna Fáil T.D. That seems to be the imprimatur necessary for gaining concessions and winning the approval of the Department in such matters.

An Foras Tionscal is said to be a statutory body. Ministers are often inclined to hide behind that phrase and say they have no powers to interfere with such bodies, just as the Minister for Agriculture has said in relation to the matter raised by Deputy Esmonde. We know that is all poppycock, that if he wanted to do it, he could. In this case, my colleague, Deputy Ormonde, pointed out to us at the meeting the other night that responsibility was in the hands of the statutory body, An Foras Tionscal, and he said that was done mainly for the purpose of having these matters of national importance, involving the spending of huge sums of money, divorced from the realms of politics and outside influence. I deplored that statement from my colleague, but I did not want to criticise him at that meeting because I wanted to have a united front.

I am not responsible for what he said.

I know that. I do not want to divorce anything from politics. We are the elected representatives of the Irish people and the Minister is a Minister of State in the Government of this country. I do not want to see anything divorced from the authority of this House or from the authority of the Minister. I prefer to see the Minister with the authority because he is then answerable to the House. Having made the statement I referred to, Deputy Ormonde went on to say that this project would not have gone so far but for himself, and so on. I was very glad to hear him say that. Even though this body, An Foras Tionscal, appears to be an ivory tower, it is obvious there is a doorway into the ivory tower. I am convinced that if the Minister in charge of the Department which set up that body made a recommendation to it, that body would take notice of it. I therefore appeal to the Minister to intervene in this matter and give this worthwhile project in Waterford a chance. I appeal to him to do this, in view of the facts I have given him and in view of the raw deal industrial promoters in Waterford have got in the past.

It is most encouraging to know that this year there has been a very considerable increase in the number of employed in manufacturing industry over the number employed last year. We have now approximately 4,000 more employed in this type of industry. What is even more important, the trend is in the right direction and we have every reason to believe that next year will prove an even better year than this year.

The efforts of the Opposition to belittle the increase in employment in manufacturing industry by referring to the fall in the number employed on the land forces one to mention the fact that during the period of office of the Coalition Government, not only was there a fall in the number employed in industry but the fall in the number employed on the land was very much greater than during the Fianna Fáil Government's term of office. Deputy Dillion referred the other day to the Economic Statistics issued prior to the Budget in 1960 and he mentioned that Table 16 shows that, in the year 1955, we had the highest number employed in nonagricultural economic activity. That of course is true, but what he did not mention was that from 1952 to 1955, which was mainly a Fianna Fáil term of office, the number was increasing each year. On the other hand, after 1955, the number declined very considerably and it was only last year that the decline stopped and the number evened out.

It is also encouraging to note the comparatively large increase in the output of our industries and particularly the increased amount exported. Despite the fact that last year the unfavourable weather and unsettled conditions pertaining to the eradication of bovine tuberculosis resulted in a reduction in cattle exports, the value of our total exports was almost as high as it was in the previous year. In his statement, the Minister referred to the upward trend in the flow of foreign capital into Irish industry. As he said, this is most heartening. I was glad to note he is considering appointing more representatives abroad to work in this field. I feel we have not nearly enough representatives engaged on this. The representatives we have are doing very fine work, but considering the vastness of the field, I feel we should have very many more of them.

From my own experience, over the past few years, of industry in my own constituency, I have come to the conclusion that for industries to continue to thrive, in the conditions now facing us, for example, the progressive reduction of tariff barriers in Britain vis-a-vis the other nations associated with her in the Outer Seven and also the Common Market tariff wall, it is vital for us to tie up with large industries in these countries.

As I said on this Estimate on a previous occasion, what our industries need most is technical know-how and markets, and with markets we could ally salesmanship. The best method of obtaining the technical know-how and the markets is to tie up with industries in other countries which have already got them. The Minister should go to great lengths to impress upon all our industrialists that they should gear themselves towards the export markets and that, if they do not, they simply cannot hope to survive. Capability to export is the hallmark of efficiency; it is proof of efficiency, and the industry which is now exporting a considerable percentage of its output need have no fear for the future. The industry which, however, is making no effort to improve its methods and increase its efficiency, or making no effort to get into the export market, is in for a very rough time when the tariff barriers are lowered, as has been forecasted by the Taoiseach.

What I have said in this respect is in no way to be taken as a criticism of the protection policy adopted by this Party in former years. We hear a lot of nonsense talked by the members of the Opposition with regard to our protection policy, of inefficiency hiding behind tarriff barriers, and of the public being mulcted in prices and so on, but what we have to remember is that apart altogether from the fact that these industries have provided a very large number of jobs for our people over the years, they are now the spring board from which we are making our advance on the industrial front and without which it would not be possible to make an advance.

I know of industries in my own constituency which grew up under this protection policy and, because of the go-ahead attitude of the management and the efficiency of the workers, they forced themselves on the attention of foreign industrialists who were not only willing, but anxious, to merge with them. The result is that there are in my county relatively large industries employing very considerable numbers of people and exporting a large precentage of their output, and this is due largely to the fact that the policy of protection gave them the opportunity to start. If we had not had this policy of protection we would not have these industries and foreign industrialists would not have the same incentive to come in here.

In his statement the Minister referred to the activities of An Foras Tionscal, and to the amounts of money paid out during the past year by this body. While I appreciate the difficulties that face An Foras Tionscal and am aware of the various aspects which this body must take into consideration before giving grants, I must say that I am not over happy with regard to its general policy. I feel that if a small industry shows, by the initiative of its management and its workers, that it is a success in the export market, and can show that if given a grant to allow it to expand, its exports can be increased and the number of workers it employs also increased, it should get a grant.

The general impression appears to be that if a person goes to An Foras Tionscal with an idea regarding the manufacture of a particular product for export, and can show to the satisfaction of that body that there is a reasonable likelihood of the project being successful, that it will export the bulk of its products and employ a certain number of people, he will get a grant. On the other hand, if an industry is already started on some individual's own initiative, if it is exporting a considerable amount of its products and can show that by getting a certain amount of financial assistance it would be able to increase its exports enormously, nevertheless, it is refused a grant because it is already started. It appears to me that while, in the first instance, so far as it is humanly possible it is ascertained that there is a reasonable chance of success, in the second instance it is almost a certainly that it will be a success. A small industry, which is capable of development with the aid of a small grant, should be regarded as of national importance.

People could be put into employment in such industries at a much lower cost than in a new project. Our minds tend to be directed towards large industries because if we have unemployment in our areas we are anxious to get industries which will absorb all those who are unemployed, but it must be remembered that a number of small industries would also absorb the unemployed and would be much easier to establish and less costly to finance.

Last year I mentioned the special type of problem we have in my county. Because of the fact that most of our industries came to that area or were expanded in it over the past 30 years or so, the workers in them are still comparatively young. Many of them have grown-up families but because only a small number are as yet reaching the retiring age in these industries there are not enough openings for young people. That is why I am anxious that An Foras Tionscal should consider applications for grants from already established industries in my area. An Foras Tionscal should take into consideration the special problems which confront us in that area.

It would be ungenerous of me in discussing the work of An Foras Tionscal if I did not mention the very fine rôle this body played in the organisation and development of the Dundalk Engineering Works. I should like to assure the Minister that we in county Louth are very appreciative of their efforts in that regard. Looking back at that period and remembering the almost insoluble problems that faced us, it seems to be little short of a miracle that we have got as far as we have in this project. Of course, that is not to say that all the problems in this matter are solved. Far from it. However with full co-operation, the projects should prove, in the long run, a great help to the general economy of the country.

I should like, as I have done each year on the Estimate for the Department, to refer to the matter of buying and selling Irish goods. The publicity given by the Minister to this matter over the past year is very welcome. Very fine work has been done in the schools in explaining to the children, and through them to their parents, the vital importance of buying Irish goods. If there are people in the locality working in a factory, it is a simple matter to explain to the children that these people are employed full-time because the goods made in the factory are bought in sufficient quantities and, on the other hand, that they are on short time whenever the goods made in the factory are not bought in sufficient quantities.

To buy Irish is not only patriotism but practical common sense. One very important aspect of the matter is that we are not asking our people, in 1960, to buy Irish goods simply as a matter of patriotism but because they are of high standard, of good quality and are being bought in considerable quantities in other countries, not because the people of those countries have a particular liking for the Irish people but because the goods are of as good quality or of better quality than they can get at home and because the price is competitive.

We all realise that in order to sell on foreign markets our goods must be of high quality and offered at a price the people are willing to pay. I am glad that in our appeal to our Irish people abroad the note has been changed, that we are appealing to them now to buy Irish goods because they are quality goods and not simply as a matter of sentiment. Business and sentiment, as a rule, do not mix. Irish people abroad would be most anxious to assist in strengthening the economy of our country by buying our goods, provided we offer them goods of a quality at least equal to that which they can get from any other country and at a price which is keen.

I mentioned at the beginning that the propaganda issued by the Minister in connection with buying Irish was welcome, but the leaflets issued could show more imagination. Advertising is found to be more effective in picture form than in the printed word. I would suggest that the Minister should issue a leaflet of roughly the same size as the leaflet he has issued, divided in four, having on the top left-hand corner a picture of an Irish shop displaying Irish and foreign goods, people in the shop demanding Irish goods and coming out with Irish goods; on the top right-hand corner a picture of a factory workshop in which the goods are made, with all the machines in operation and fully manned; on the bottom left hand corner a picture of the same shop with people going in, not expressing preference for Irish goods, some of them coming out with foreign goods and, on the bottom right hand corner a picture of the same factory workshop showing a number of the machines idle and fewer people employed. Something of that type would be more effective than the printed word.

I do not know how the cost would work out but I suggest that advertising in local papers would be very effective. The local papers, in my constituency have done very fine work in connection with the promotion of sales of Irish goods.

We have heard many remarks in this debate on the slowness of progress in the industrial field. For a country whose industrial development began such a short time ago and which is now forced to compete with countries having a long industrial tradition, we are doing reasonably well. The fact that our rate of progress has been accelerating for some time past gives hope that in a few years we shall be able to compete with countries, which were in the field before us, in all aspects of industrial production. We are building up an industrial tradition of which we can be proud.

I am glad to note that the amount of money available for An Córas Tráchtála has been considerably increased. In present circumstances we cannot spend too much money on export promotion and market research and development. The British market is our most important market and it is generally agreed that it has not even been scratched, that there is very much more that we could do in selling to the British.

We must try to get into other markets also. Reference has been made to countries in Africa which have got their freedom lately. As the economies of these countries develop, worthwhile markets for processed agricultural goods will be available and we should see to it that we get a foothold there and not wait until other countries have taken over the markets.

As has been mentioned often, there is a fund of goodwill in these countries for Ireland because of the work of our missionaries there.

Our balance of trade problems are a continuous source of worry to us. They have been referred to tonight by Deputy Lynch. We find ourselves on the wrong side of the balance sheet with practically every country with which we trade. To over-simplify the problem is not much help in our efforts to solve it. The problem has many aspects. If the Department made a close study of the matter the problem could be solved at least in part.

To get to grips with this matter we must first examine imports and exports in each individual case and find out in what way our economy may be affected by the imports, what effect the prohibition of such imports would have on employment, how our people would react to a prohibition of a certain type of import, what effect it would have on prices and, having assessed the position, take action accordingly.

Take, for example, Greece. We are on the wrong side of the balance sheet with that country. I have not asked for any breakdown of the imports from Greece but I assume that the bulk of them are dried fruit, currants and so on. We would have to ask ourselves whether our people would be satisfied to do without this fruit, what effect the prohibition would have on our bakery trade and employment in that trade. All these questions would have to be answered. It might be suggested that we could buy the fruit elsewhere. We would have to consider whether we could sell even the small amount that we are selling to Greece to the other country from which we would buy the fruit over and above what we sell to it now.

To develop that a little further, take a country in which we are in imbalance to the tune of £3,000,000 imports against £1,000,000 exports. Suppose we were to say to this country: "As you are buying only £1,000,000 worth from us, we shall take our business elsewhere." I do not doubt that in a relatively short space of time we could get the £3,000,000 worth of imports from other countries but the question would arise then as to whether we could sell the £1,000,000 worth of exports and, if we could not what effect would that have on our economy? I suggest that in a country such as this we should first explore every possible market and use whatever pressure we can bring to bear on its Government. While we are doing that, An Córas Tráchtála should search diligently for an alternative market for that product so that we would then be in a position of some strength to bargain. If Córas Tráchtála were successful, we would then be able to say: "If you do not improve your balance of payments with us we shall take away our business from you."

The other side of the picture in regard to the balance of payments is also important and relates more or less to the question of buying Irish. We import a considerable quantity of agricultural goods such as cheese. If our people were to concentrate on buying Irish cheese and—perhaps more important—if our producers would produce the particular type of cheese that is being imported and for which there is obviously a demand we could reduce our imports. This applies to a number of other commodities also.

During last year industrial output increased; industrial exports increased and industrial employment increased and I feel that we have every reason to be hopeful for the future.

I do not intend to make a speech on the Estimate but rather to use the occasion to appeal to the Minister to use his good offices with An Foras Tionscal as best he can in connection with the proposed chipboard industry in Waterford. I know An Foras Tionscal is a statutory body and perfectly free to make its own decisions on grants but I feel sure that it would pay due regard to any view expressed by the Minister.

I should be very loath to say or do anything in this House or outside it that might be thought to prejudice in any way the question of a grant for the proposed chipboard factory because, as I understand it, a final decision has not yet been taken. In making this appeal I shall endeavour not to say or do anything that would imply unfair criticism or jump to any false conclusions. It is my sincere wish that common sense will prevail and that the City of Waterford, so badly in need of a major industry, will secure the grant necessary to give this proposed industry a chance of starting there.

As I understand it, the promoters of the industry have gone to a good deal of expense and trouble to make a full investigation of the economic possibilities of establishing the industry in Waterford. They are quite confident that, given the assistance they seek from the Government, they can make an economic success of the project. I understand that the delay in regard to the grant is due to further investigations into the possibilities of outside markets and the home market for chipboard products. Evidently, should that investigation be prolonged it is likely that the Six Counties may take advantage of the fact that there is a market of 40 per cent. available at present in Britain that is being met from Japan and countries behind the Iron Curtain and which is not being met either by Britain itself or by the chipboard factory in Northern Ireland. Any long delay may justify installation of further equipment in similar factories either in Britain or in Northern Ireland and so limit the prospects of the establishment of the chipboard factory in Waterford.

The directors of the company have such confidence that it is not merely the question of the grant that is holding them up. They are more concerned with the fact that in order to make the factory an economic success they must have some assurance from the Department of Lands that the forestry timbers will be available. They believe the only real assurance, or the best assurance, on which they could rely would be the Government grant. I am inclined to agree that the grant would provide an inducement to the Department of Lands to endeavour to maintain supplies for the factory. Situated in Waterford it has every advantage; it has a first-class port which could be used to export—ex-factory-practically.

We have a grave unemployment problem which could be eased by the establishment of this factory as it is the hope of the directors that at least 100 male adult employees would be taken on with another 100 indirectly employed in haulage and various other jobs. In addition, we would have the associated shipping helping Waterford port or, if not Waterford, it would go to the port of Rosslare. It is the hope of the directors not only to establish the chipboard factory if the grant is available but to establish a subsidiary in the form of a furniture factory which would give additional employment.

I would ask the Minister to use his good offices to impress upon An Foras Tionscal that, although we may not be able to meet that clause which they have asked us to meet, we should show proof of the national importance of establishing the industry in Waterford. We have grave unemployment problems and great emigration and if the factory is established it will, I am confident, prove economically sound. The promoters have secured a monopoly on the best type of machinery available in Germany for chipboard production and if the grant is given the Government can be assured that there will be a first-class chipboard factory in Waterford comparable with anything of its kind in the world.

I should like to reiterate what Deputy Faulkner has said in regard to the attitude of An Foras Tionscal and also that of the Industrial Development Authority in regard to applications for grants received occasionally from small concerns. The accent appears to be on large industrial concerns involving hundreds of thousands of pounds when grants and loans are being sought. That, of course, is appreciated and understood. The Minister must safeguard the finances at his disposal for these bodies and distribute the money amongst worthwhile concerns but I am afraid he is very often sacrificing the smaller family concerns.

I know a couple of cases in my own town of Dundalk where individuals applied for a loan. They submitted accounts proving their entitlement to the loan and they showed that their exports to Northern Ireland had considerably increased over a given period of time. They submitted all that information to no avail. An Foras Talún-tais refused them, or it may have been the Industrial Development Authority —I am not sure. The loan was refused even though, as I say, it was obvious that this comparatively small firm was entitled to get it. I could quote other cases, but I just want to urge on the Minister if he can do anything in that matter to whisper in the ear of those concerned that they should be more favourably disposed towards meeting the wishes of these small concerns whenever the occasion arises. Deputy Faulkner emphasised that point, and I join with him in doing so.

I should like to take this opportunity to ask the Minister again to do what he can to ease the terrible congestion which recurs annually at our ports, in relation to the cross-Channel services. I was asked to raise this matter by a number of people who have travelled across the Channel and who experienced much inconvenience. Within the past few years, a system of issuing sailing tickets was adopted with the express purpose of easing the traffic congestion. I do not think that system has achieved its aim in that regard. The position definitely has not improved. That was some time ago and we are now entering a period of the year at which we hope to see many thousands of people coming into the country, not only our returning emigrants but foreigners and strangers. We should do everything we possibly can to ease the position in regard to the cross-Channel services.

I presume I am in order in referring to tourism on this Estimate. It is a comprehensive Estimate, I think. I should like to ask the Minister to urge on Bord Fáilte the advisability of not concentrating too much on the giving of financial aid to the well-known resorts around our coast. It is only natural that money should be poured into the well-established areas to enhance them still further and to provide them with additional amenities for the attraction of visitors. We are neglecting, to a very damaging degree, the smaller resorts which are, perhaps, not so well-known but which have in their own way as much right to financial aid as resorts such as Killarney, Bray, Galway, Salthill and such places. It would encourage the local development organisations in these small resorts to redouble their efforts to attract visitors to their areas by providing the desirable amenities. If they received more encouragement in the form of financial aid and technical assistance from Bord Fáilte, a good day's work would be done.

I should like to ask the Minister also to request Bord Fáilte to direct the attention of foreign tourist agents, when they come here, to spread out and not concentrate on the well-known areas. Let them travel to the smaller areas, the places which are less well-known. There are many such areas in my constituency of Louth, especially in the northern end, in the Carlingford-Omeath direction. I do not think groups of foreign travel agents have ever appeared there. It would be a good idea for Bord Fáilte to encourage them to visit the smaller less well-known resorts.

While speaking of Louth, I should like to inquire whether the Minister can give any information with regard to the proposed industry which, rumour has it, is to be set up in Greenore. It is said—I do not know whether or not it is true—that a container traffic industry is to be developed in that port. During the past number of years, a number of false alarms have been spread about Greenore. Some years ago, the Taoiseach, then Minister for Industry and Commerce, made an announcement guaranteeing trade loans to a company to set up a business there. Through some mishap, or unexpected development, that industry was not set up, with the result that the people in the Greenore area have become very disillusioned and disappointed. It is definitely a depressed area, especially now since the railway which used to lead into it has been closed down. If this industry does develop and fructify it would be very welcome indeed. It may, of course, be a private enterprise affair and, if so, I shall understand if the Minister cannot give any details, but if he would refer to it at least, let us see where we stand and give some ray of hope, it would be a good idea.

With regard to the remarks made by various speakers about the attraction of foreign capital into this country, there is, of course, one facet of this matter which might, on reconsideration, prompt us to be a bit hesitant about attracting such foreign capital. There are large industrial concerns throughout the world which have set up factories in other countries. If anything goes wrong with the parent company, the subsidiary companies will be the very first to be closed down. If a large British or American firm sets up a subsidiary company in Ireland and then falls on evil days, the factory set up here will be the very first, naturally, to be closed down, with consequent unemployment. Even at the risk of that happening, I think, willy-nilly, we must do all we can to attract foreign capital, because it is one of the most expedient and effective ways by which we shall be able to solve, in a comparatively short number of years, the twin problems of unemployment and emigration.

With regard to the search for markets which goes on from year to year and which is in the charge of that very competent body, Córas Tráchtála, delegations are frequently sent abroad seeking markets for the various commodities we have to sell. We have a number of Embassies throughout the world. If we set up a commercial section in each Embassy, charged with the express job of watching for market opportunities, I think we should make more progress because delegations sent from here go only for a number of weeks and then come back. They are not on the spot all the time. If some of our representatives in our Embassies were deputed to concentrate on looking for markets, I think it would help. I do not know whether or not there are commercial sections in our Embassies but if there are not, it would be a good idea if they were set up or if that point were investigated.

One remedy for unemployment would be that both employers and employees should always be prepared to go more than half-way to settle their various differences. The trouble appears to be that each section, the workers and the employers, will go only 50 per cent. of the way when they are negotiating. If each side were prepared to go one point beyond the 50 per cent. it would change the picture radically throughout the country. We would then have less industrial strife, less unrest and less uncertainty.

I want to deal first with the problem of unemployment in rural areas. The concentration on the establishment of industry in Dublin is going beyond the limit of satisfaction. No matter what Government may be in office, the tendency of the unemployed person in rural Ireland is to make for the place where there is some hope of employment. It is strange that we do not make a comparison between what has happened in Britain and what may happen here.

It is well that Dublin is prosperous. It is well that the people in Dublin may get employment. However, that is not sufficient. The tendency is to move in from the country in the hope of obtaining employment in Dublin but it has the effect of denuding the country.

In Britain, it has been established and is accepted as a principle that dispersal of industry is essential. Apparently that is not our idea. When we reach the stage at which we shall have to do something in that direction, it may then be too late. Many Deputies can recall that only a few years ago a lot of land around Dublin which is now covered by factories was part of the country, almost. If some of these industries could be diverted to areas where they are urgently needed from the point of view of providing employment, as has been done in Britain, it would greatly benefit the community.

Despite the best endeavours of Córas Tráchtála and the Department of Industry and Commerce, we are concentrating on the establishment of factories in respect of which the raw material must be imported to the detriment of concentrating on the processing of agricultural products for industrial purposes. Many Deputies have urged the importance of exports. If we concentrate on agricultural exports and on the export of processed agricultural products, we can develop a rural arm rather than be entirely dependent on outside sources for raw materials.

It was proposed to establish an industry in Bandon. I want to inquire about that matter because the people there are anxious about it. Trade statistics show to a certain degree the favourability of the project for the export market. Is it correct that a combination of Irish manufacturers, through the power of monopoly, tried to prevent the establishment of that factory in Bandon? We hear a lot about encouraging industrialists to establish industries in areas where it is not easy to get Irish industrialists to establish or to extend their factories. If Irish industrialists are not prepared to do that, then it is a pity if they want to prevent anybody else from doing so. I am not making a charge now but in fairness to the Minister and to all concerned, I want to know if there was interference by Irish manufacturers in this case.

In view of the enormous amount of money we are offering to industrialists by way of grants and inducements to come to this country and establish industries in areas where there is much unemployment, surely there is a touch of irony about the position if Irish manufacturers combine to prevent such industries from being set up? I could name two industries in one town in South Cork which received very handsome grants and all the benefits that are available. In one instance, they are exporting and getting very good prices for their product, which, I am informed, is of top grade but they pay a measly wage to their workers.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 1st June, 1960.
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