I gave the Taoiseach notice last night that I would ask him about No. 8 on to-day's Order Paper, the motion dealing with the closing of the Waterford-Tramore railway, which stands in the names of my colleague, Deputy Kyne, and myself.
Business of Dáil.
I could not agree to give Government time for the discussion of a motion relating to a specific decision by the Board of C.I.E. which they are fully empowered to take. However, if the Party opposite desire to put down a motion to permit of a discussion on the general policy of C.I.E., I shall be prepared to provide Government time for it in the next session.
May I make this suggestion to the Taoiseach? This matter was discussed in the House previously, and I understood the Taoiseach to indicate that if the Committee on Procedure and Privileges determined this motion was in order——
That is irrelevant.
I understood the Taoiseach to say that, in that event, the Government's refusal to provide time would be reconsidered. The matter was discussed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and it was determined that the motion was in order. In those circumstances, I put it to the Taoiseach that if a statutory power is to be exercised which would produce an irrevocable result and an application is made from the responsible Leader of the Opposition Party for Government time to discuss the motion, then, in view of the irrevocable consequences of acting upon it, the Taoiseach and the Government ought to provide the time, even though they do not like the motion and do not approve of its terms. When there is an application for Government time from a responsible Leader of the Opposition in an irrevocable situation, the Government ought to make it available.
The matter of the Dáil procedures for discussing the activities of various statutory boards was discussed here previously and I indicated on that occasion that a motion to discuss the annual report of such a board, or some other such motion which would permit of the general activities of any of these boards to be debated in the Dáil, would be something the Government would be prepared to facilitate. That is the position in regard to the Board of C.I.E. as well as every other statutory board. A motion of that kind, which would permit Deputies to raise any matter affecting the administration in which they are interested, would be one for which I think the Government should provide time and for which we would be prepared to provide time.
However, I think it is not reasonable to ask the Government to take an action which would imply a departure from its own position. As to whether or not these particular motions are appropriate for discussion in Private Member's time is not relevant on this point. The point is that if Deputies will put down a motion, such as the Dáil has discussed previously in relation to statutory boards, the Government would regard themselves as obliged to provide time for its discussion.
I want to press this view on the Taoiseach. Does this amount——
There is no motion before the House.
Does the Taoiseach claim that we should put down a motion only in the form approved by the Government?
No.
I would have no particular objection if the Government meet the motion in the time provided by saying: "We refuse to make any answer to this motion because we do not think its form is one that ought to be raised in Dáil Éireann. We will fight that out in debate." But surely, if the propriety of a motion is called in question and is referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, who say the motion is all right, and the Leader of the Opposition asks the Government for time, normally, whether the Government agree with me or not, they ought to give time? The assumption is that I lack responsibility, but the corresponding assumption is that if the Opposition and the Leader of the Labour Party act responsibly, the Government will meet their request.
I fully appreciate the Taoiseach does not like the form of this motion and does not think it is a proper form. O.K. But the Committee on Procedure and Privileges have not adopted the Taoiseach's view. In that situation I am asking for Government time to discuss this motion. I fully concede the Taoiseach's right to say, when we come to discuss it: "I do not think it is in proper form and I shall not discuss it with you." Let him give his reasons. That is another story. But the Taoiseach ought to give time, otherwise it will be impossible for the Opposition to collaborate with the Government in getting the business of this House done.
The question which the Committee on Procedure and Privileges considered was whether a motion of this kind is appropriate for discussion in Private Member's time.
No, appropriate for discussion by Dáil Éireann.
If I am asked to give Government time for a motion, it must not be a motion in a form which involves the Government in acceptance of the principle that the Dáil has the right to override the decisions of C.I.E. in these matters. I do not think it is an insoluble difficulty. If a Deputy would put down a motion, which need not involve any departure from their position either, I shall provide Government time for it. Even a simple motion, such as that the Dáil should discuss the administration of C.I.E., will satisfy the reasonable requirements of the Government in this matter. We shall give Government time for that debate and discuss fully the issues of policy that arise.
Deputy Wycherley, Deputy Corish and Deputy M.P. Murphy rose.
It is undesirable to have every Deputy joining in this discussion. There is nothing before the House for discussion.
Because of the replies given to the various questions asked in the House, an impression has been created in the country that the Board of C.I.E. is now a higher authority than Dáil Éireann.
The Deputy is proceeding to discuss the whole question now.
Is it not a fact that Dáil Éireann still has power to take that power from C.I.E.?
That is right.
If there is a motion put down by any Deputy that these powers given to C.I.E. by legislation should be revoked I shall give Government time for the discussion of it.
Will the Taoiseach not agree that during the passage of this Transport Bill in 1958 the Dáil was told by him as Minister for Industry and Commerce that local interests would be given an opportunity to discuss the matter?
The Deputy is out of order.
There is nothing disorderly in what I am saying.
The Deputy is disorderly. The Deputy will resume his seat.
I cannot see why the Ceann Comhairle should endeavour to stifle discussion on this matter on the last day of the session.
There is nothing before the House. I must proceed with the business.
If a motion is put down to discuss the whole policy of C.I.E. I am prepared to give Government time for it.
The Taoiseach is asking us to put down a motion in a form suggested by him. I do not think that we should be asked to do that. This matter was taken to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges which decided that the motion was in order. In view of that I come back to this House and suggest that in fairness, and in order to get the business of the House done, we should be given Government time to discuss the motion. The Taoiseach then says that he will not give us Government time unless the motion is in the form in which he says it should be. You cannot get the business of the House done in that way.
I understand that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges has not yet given a decision on the motion.
They have decided that there is nothing in the motion contrary to Standing Orders.
To make this matter clear, Sir, the Committee on Procedure and Privileges decided that, as Standing Orders are at present, these motions are in order. The Committee refused to accept the view put forward by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach that they be ruled out of Order. The decision is that, as Standing Orders are, the motions are in order.
I do not think that the issue of policy should be discussed in relation to specific discussions of the C.I.E. Board. The motion should be one that would raise a question of policy.
I have no particular axe to grind in this matter. The Taoiseach's view is that the motion is out of order and the difference of opinion between him and the Opposition is that he does not consider it a motion for which he should give Government time.
Not quite.
I think that the reason we have an argument on this is that when the Bill was passing through the House certain Deputies got the idea, whether they were right or wrong, that on the question of the closing of C.I.E. lines the Taoiseach is alleged to have said that before any lines were closed local interests would be given an opportunity of putting their case.
I said no such thing.
The Taoiseach did. It is on the records of the House.
Read the record. It is quite clear that C.I.E. are within their powers in any action they have taken.
The Taoiseach may be correct in that. The legislation does not provide for this sort of representation but we took it from the Taoiseach's statement on the Bill when it was passing through the House that he agreed that local interests should have an opportunity of discussing the closing of the railways. If the Taoiseach spent five minutes before the House this morning in clarifying the position the whole matter would be cleared up quickly.
There is nothing before the House. I must proceed with the Order of Business.
The Order of Business is totally bad. It makes the conduct of business in this House very difficult.
Mr. Ryan
Why are you afraid of discussing the policy of C.I.E.?
The whole point is that we will not allow the Government to decide the terms of a motion put down by us.
I am proceeding with the Order of Business.
There are two amendments from the Seanad to the Rent Restrictions (No. 2) Bill and I suggest that they be taken at the conclusion of Government business if the House is not prepared to give them to me now. They are purely drafting amendments.
We shall take them at the conclusion of Government business.
I want to direct attention to this matter. The Parliamentary Secretary drops in here with these two amendments which he wants passed and he expects us to give them to him. I do urge upon the Taoiseach that all that is a procedure of give-and-take in which we help and facilitate one another in getting essential business through the House.
I am prepared to give, and to give generously, time for discussion on this matter if a motion is put down to discuss the policy of C.I.E.
Mr. Ryan
Discuss the whole policy of C.I.E. and let there be no misrepresentation.
Give time for the discussion of these motions.
I did not hear the Taoiseach say what the proposal was about the adjournment.
I stated that yesterday on the Order of Business. It is understood that there will be seven and a half hours for the debate on the adjournment. If Government business concludes in time to permit that time to be available, we shall conclude to-day and, if not, we shall carry on until tomorrow. Deputy O'Higgins asked me yesterday about the Civil Liabilities Bill. I expect the Bill will be available in the next session.
I did not catch the Taoiseach's concluding words. Did he say early in the next session?
I should not like to say that the Bill will be available on the 8th February but it will be available some time after that.