Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 1961

Vol. 192 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Turf Development Bill, 1961 —Second Stage.

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. Childers)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The main object of this Bill is to provide an extra £5,000,000 capital for Bord na Móna. Under the Turf Development Acts, 1946 to 1959, Bord na Móna may borrow up to £19,000,000 for the performance of their functions, exclusive of the housing of their servants. The Board may obtain capital up to this amount by way of advances from the Minister for Finance or by the creation of stock or other forms of security. In the exercise of these powers the Board have to-date borrowed a total of £18,991,472, of which £750,000 was obtained from Messrs. Arthur Guinness and £52,000 from the Board's own Superannuation Fund, the balance, which is inclusive of assets valued at £444,915 taken over by Bord na Móna from the former Turf Development Board, Limited, being provided by the State.

Bord na Móna have already repaid to the Central Fund the sum of £444,915 in respect of the assets taken over from the Turf Development Board, Limited. Repayment of capital advances from the Exchequer for bog development is phased to correspond with the coming into production of associated groups of bogs. Repayment with interest of the first block of capital amounting to £6,387,557 commenced on 1st October, 1956, and will be completed on 1st April, 1981. Repayment with interest of a further sum of £3,250,000 commenced on 1st October, 1960, and will be completed on 1st April, 1985. Repayment of remaining advances will commence when the bogs in which the capital is being invested come into production.

The authorised borrowing of £19,000,000 was intended to cover the requirements of the Board up to 1960/61, and the need for further provision in 1961/62 was foreseen when the limit of £19,000,000 was fixed by the Turf Development Act, 1959.

The main output of Bord na Móna is determined by the requirements of peat for electricity generation. It is the policy of the Government that all bogs which are economically usable for electricity generation shall be developed for this purpose. Development of bog to the production stage requires a period of five years more or less. Already five peat-fired electricity stations have been commissioned, together with the four small hand-won turf stations. These stations have an aggregate capacity of 205 megawatts. The future programme of the Electricity Supply Board provides for the commissioning of the following additional peat-fired plant—40 megawatts at Bellacorick in 1962/63; 12½ additional megawatts at Portarlington in 1962/63; 40 additional megawatts at Rhode in 1963/64; 30 additional megawatts at Ferbane in 1964/65; 40 megawatts at Shannonbridge in 1964/65; 40 additional megawatts at Lanesboro' in 1965/66, and 40 additional megawatts at Shannonbridge in 1968/69 or later. On the completion of this programme, a total of 447.5 megawatts of generating plant will be peat-fired.

At 31st March, 1961, peat-fired stations represented 205 megawatts of the total generating capacity of 723.5 megawatts, that is to say about 28%. These stations produced 32.5% of the total units supplied to the electricity system by E.S.B. stations. In the same year 79.7% of electricity generated came from native resources and just over 40% of the native production came from peat-fired stations.

The programme of peat-fired generating plant which I have outlined extends to 1968/69 and represents the maximum foreseeable bog development for electricity generation. Thereafter peat-fired generating capacity will represent a gradually diminishing proportion of total capacity.

To meet the requirements of the electricity generating plant construction programme up to 1968/69, Bord na Móna are developing or will develop additional areas of bog in the Boora, Derrygreenagh, Bangor-Erris, Garryduff and Longford groups. The Black-water bog, which had been reserved for the nitrogenous fertiliser project, is now available to provide the milled peat for the 40 megawatt station planned for Shannonbridge in 1964/65. The bog development programme provides, ultimately, for an annual production for electricity generation of 580,000 tons of sod peat and 2,500,000 tons of milled peat.

In addition to their output for electricity generation Bord na Móna also produce some 320,000 tons of sod peat for general consumption. Other aspects of their activities are the production of peat briquettes for domestic and industrial consumption and peat moss. Capacity for briquettes is 250,000 tons per annum requiring 750,000 tons of milled peat. The annual production of peat moss is at present about 250,000 bales, mostly for export. The number of persons employed by the Board, in all grades, amounts to about 7,000 at peak.

The present statutory limit on the total amount which the Board may borrow for the performance of their functions is £19,000,000, excluding provision for housing. It is estimated that the completion of the development programme will necessitate additional expenditure amounting to about £8,000,000 bringing the total up to about £27,000,000. The present Bill proposes an increase in the statutory limit of £5,000,000, bringing it up to £24,000,000. This increase should enable the Board to meet their requirements until about 1964/65 and at that time the House will have a further opportunity to consider the position.

The opportunity of this Bill is being taken to effect an amendment in the law relating to the tenancy of the houses built by Bord na Móna under the powers conferred on them by Section 5 of the Turf Development Act, 1950. That section permits the Board to let these houses only to their servants. Houses become temporarily vacant when a tenant leaves the employment of the Board. Suitable tenants from among the Board's workers may not immediately apply for the tenancies, and houses may, therefore, be vacant for periods which may be short or long depending on how soon suitable tenants apply for them. It is undesirable that houses should remain vacant for long periods and, accordingly, it is proposed by Section 3 (2) of this Bill to give the Board power to let vacant houses to persons who would not ordinarily qualify for tenancies. To give the Board a wider field from which to obtain suitable occupiers it is proposed to relax the restriction confining tenancies to servants of the Board. The Board, of course, will only make such lettings in cases where they are satisfied that the houses would otherwise remain vacant for extended periods.

The Bill also provides that the Board may sell houses which may eventually be found to be permanently surplus to their requirements. Any such houses would be sold by public tender.

In conclusion I should like to pay a tribute to Bord na Móna for their great progress in the field of development assigned to them. The Board and their staff are to be congratulated on the substantial contribution which turf development is making to the national economy. I confidently recommend this Bill to the House.

Mr. Cosgrave

The proposal for increased capital for Bord na Móna is obviously one which will meet with general approval in order to enable Bord na Móna to proceed with the further development of a number of bogs for the provision of peat for the generation of electricity. In that connection I notice that the Minister in the course of his remarks said that the present programme of peat-fired generating plant, which he outlined, extended to 1968-69, which is roughly a period of seven or eight years. As I understand it, the life of a fully developed bog is about 25 years. I notice in the course of the Minister's speech that peat-fired generating capacity will represent a gradually diminishing proportion of the total capacity after that date.

It would be interesting to hear what will replace turf as fuel for electricity generating plant when these supplies are exhausted. In planning a large undertaking of this nature it is essential to look ahead over a period of years and the fact that a fully developed bog has a life of only 25 years may in one sense appear a considerable period of time, but in another it is a comparatively short one. I would be interested to know if the Minister is in a position to give information as to what progress has been made on the possibility of generating electricity from atomic energy—I understood that some years ago the Electricity Supply Board had this matter under consideration—and whether the possibility of providing electricity from that source is contemplated after the life of the existing bogs and those which it is proposed to develop has been exhausted.

The proportion of electricity generated by turf-fired stations is fairly considerable. At the moment it amounts to about 28 per cent. Of the 79 per cent. of electricity generated from native resources, just over 40 per cent. of the native production came from the peat-fired stations. It is therefore obvious that a very considerable gap will have to be filled when the existing and proposed bog development supplies are exhausted. I believe there would be general interest in getting a picture of what will be the expected developments when that situation is reached.

The investment by Messrs. Guinness of £750,000 in the work of Bord na Móna, particularly in the establishment of the two briquetting factories, has on many occasions been referred to and is indeed a remarkable example of the interest which that firm takes in the general development of the national economy. It is a practical gesture of faith in the capacity of this country to exploit its own resources as well as an indication that a company which has not merely very large interests here but interests on a world-wide scale is prepared to invest in the development of the resources of this country. It is an example of the confidence which that firm, with its world-wide interests, has in the capacity and ability of Irishmen and Irish technicians, craftsmen and workers to develop the resources of the country. The faith and confidence which that firm has shown deserve the best thanks of all concerned as a practical example of encouragement and a practical incentive to further development.

The increased supplies which are being provided from the briquette factories are, indeed, welcome by all who use turf as a domestic or industrial fuel. I would be interested if any figures are available for the comparable calorific value of ordinary machine-won turf and briquettes. So far as I understand it, machine-won turf is sold by fuel merchants and briquettes sold largely at the choice of the purchaser. I have never seen any figures or statistics which would indicate what are the relative calorific values of, say, a ton of machine-won turf and a ton of briquettes. Information of that sort would be of interest to domestic consumers, because in many cases people make selections merely on the basis of choice rather than on scientific information which would be of use to them in a matter of this kind.

The decision to allow Bord na Móna to lease some of the houses built seems a sensible one. Looking at some of these schemes from time to time, one is struck by the large number of vacant houses. Indeed, even in districts in which Bord na Móna carries on very extensive activities, it is remarkable how many of the houses are vacant. I would be interested to hear from the Minister if any information is available as to what proportion of the total number of houses is occupied and whether that sphere of activity will be discontinued in the future. It seems that the original idea, while satisfactory in certain districts, has not been generally availed of. Proposals for the further development of the activities of Bord na Móna will undoubtedly be welcome and have the general support of the House and the country.

Mr. N. Lemass

I should like to make a few comments regarding the third section of the Bill, which gives the Board permission to sell houses. I was glad to hear that what inspired this section was the fact that many of the houses are empty, but I was afraid, in the first instance, that after these houses were sold, the Board might find themselves short of houses and having to build more. What strikes me is that with so many of these houses being empty, it might be that they are not properly sited from the point of view of selling or letting to private people not employed by the Board. If they are not, and if all these houses are not occupied in a reasonable period of time, I can see difficulty arising with regard to their maintenance.

In Dublin Corporation when we were envisaging the possibility of selling houses to Corporation tenants who are in on a rental basis at the moment, the view was expressed that unless the tenants, in a definite block, all agreed to go into a purchase scheme, there would not be much saving for the Corporation, because a number of houses would have to be maintained and serviced here and there. That is a point which I hope the Board will consider, and perhaps they will consult with the local authorities with regard to maintenance which can be a very expensive item as I know from my experience on the City Council.

On the other hand, is it possible that people seeking local authority housing, and having difficulty in obtaining it because of the present priorities, would apply for work with Bord na Móna with a view to getting a house, and having got it—either having rented it or made an agreement to buy—cease their employment with the Board? I am slightly worried that Bord na Móna, whose function is not to build houses for letting or selling, might have difficulties in administration. It might be worth considering, where the houses are suitably sited, that an offer should be made to the local authorities to take over, by way of purchase or of renting, some of the houses, with a view to easing their own housing situation, that is, if there is a demand for the houses in the local authority area.

I should like also to feel sure that the Board would not find themselves at a later date in the position of having sold most of their houses to people who do not work for them, and as a result of some further development, having to build houses afresh.

Mr. Norton

Generally speaking, I welcome the proposals in the Bill, the main one being the proposal to extend the borrowing powers of the Board from £19 million to £24 million. When we remember that under the 1946 Act, £3¾ millions were advanced to the Board, and that we are now proposing to bring that figure up to £24 million, we can get some picture of the gigantic strides which Bord na Móna have deservedly made in the intervening years. In times when it was not popular so to believe, I was an unrepentant believer in the development of our own peat resources. While Bord na Móna had a rather hostile reception in many quarters at birth, it managed to survive and become regarded as the welcome child, and the proud child, of many who were rather critical of its arrival on the Irish economic scene at all.

I maintained that faith in the development of our peat resources, and when we remember that at the peak season Bord na Móna provide employment for approximately 7,000 persons, we get some picture of the beneficial impact of their activities on the Irish economy. It is well to underline here that these 7,000 persons are employed largely in an area where there is no other employment whatever, and no industrial employment because of the turbary character of the land. There is practically no agricultural employment, either, so Bord na Móna have been able to provide very substantial employment in the rural areas in places which were just silent wastes before the Board started their activities.

I want again to put on record my appreciation of the excellent work which Bord na Móna have done down through the years. I think their direction generally has been good, and their technicians first-class people. It was possible to achieve the measure of progress now attained only because of the fact that they had an almost dedicated technical and engineering staff who tackled problems in circumstances and in localities which were a challenge to even the stoutest hearts and the most steadfast of purpose. The staff of Bord na Móna—and I include the entire field staff—can now stand and look back over the ground they have travelled. If they do, they can see the very substantial edifice which has been erected and each and every one of them is entitled to take pardonable pride in the splendid contribution which Bord na Móna have made to the national economy and feel satisfied that so much progress has been made. It now seems reasonable to assume that they will continue this progress until such time as there has been the fullest and most expert exploitation of our turf resources, and land so utilised for fuel purposes will in time be available for agricultural and afforestation purposes.

The Board are entitled to all the good-will and help that we can give them and if they continue their developmental policies on the lines we have seen up to now, the House will feel proud that these waste lands, useless to anyone and a source of depression, dreariness and drabness, will have been brought into healthy economic life and provide useful employment in those areas.

The fact that I think so much of Bord na Móna will exempt me, I am sure, from any nagging charge when I say there is a blot on their employment programme. When their harvesting operations start about February, if the season is a good dry season, those operations are completed about September, but if the season is a bad and wet season, in which the harvest cannot be garnered as speedily as in a dry season, employment lingers on to about October or November. When a large number of people have been paid off, there is no employment for them between October or November and the following February or March with the result that large numbers of these people have got to go to the employment exchanges and live over that period of the year on what they get in the form of social welfare benefits. There are, of course, numbers of persons kept on and, in that respect, preference is given to those who are tenants of the Board's houses, because I suppose the Board regard themselves as having more of an obligation to the tenants of their cottages than they have to persons who are not so circumstanced.

However, even the tenants of cottages get a pretty lean wage, being paid only time rates during the winter period and there is quite an amount of hardship on these tenants because, while their normal outgoings remain heavy, their income is substantially accentuated because the whole method of payment in the wintertime is altered from the level in operation during the summer period.

A particular hardship is visited on the person who gets employment with Bord na Móna from about February or March till October or November. There is virtually no other employment available in the area for that person. There is no agricultural work to be done during that period. There is very little agricultural land of an arable character near the bogs. There is no industrial employment and that time of the year is the period during which county councils are already cutting back on their road work because their road funds are being exhausted and they find it hard enough to provide employment for their regular road staff much less take on other persons.

One of the most valuable features of the Local Authorities (Works) Act was that it could be available all during the winter period, that is, from October to February or March, in carrying out drainage schemes, valuable drainage schemes which helped to drain flooded lands and to improve the productivity of these lands. The improvements made under that Act were a substantial investment in bringing into production and into a greater standard of production lands which would otherwise be useless. It is a great pity that this Government were so prejudiced against the Local Authorities (Works) Act——

Mr. Childers

That does not arise.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy seems to be travelling outside the scope of this Bill.

Mr. Childers

I have not got any information from the Minister for Local Government about the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

Mr. Norton

The Minister does not need much information. Every dog in the street knows perfectly well that the Government killed the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

Mr. Childers

I cannot help that. It does not arise directly or indirectly on this Bill.

Mr. Norton

There is nobody so simple as not to know——

An Ceann Comhairle

Whether that is so or not, it does not seem to arise relevantly on this measure.

Mr. Norton

It does to this extent. Here we are providing moneys for Bord na Móna, an advance up to £24 million. If we give the Board more money we ought to expect the Board, with the additional money it gets, to organise itself in such a way that it will give the staff 52 weeks wages, as every Deputy in this House gets, instead of paying them for only eight or nine months of the year and sending them to the employment exchange for the other three or four months. Surely that is a legitimate point to make if there is still free discussion in this House.

What I am arguing is that Bord na Móna employment for a large number of people means eight or nine months' employment in the year and three or four months' idleness in the year. If anybody has any doubt about that and does not yet know it, then I am quite sure he will be supplied with all the information he wants by the top level officials of Bord na Móna who will tell you if you talk to them that they regret this aspect of Bord na Móna employment and would like to be able to find a remedy for it. We ought to try to find a remedy for it because eight months' work and four months' idleness is not satisfactory and cannot be satisfactory.

I want to urge the Minister, if he is interested in the matter at all, to discuss with Bord na Móna the possibility of providing some class of work over the winter period which will provide an alternative to the employment which Bord na Móna can provide during the summer period and which it cannot now provide during the winter period. I would suggest— I know this matter has been discussed at Government level by a few Governments—that Bord na Móna should endeavour to plant the fringe areas in the winter time so as to keep in employment those who would otherwise be dismissed. For some administrative reason, perhaps because of the absence of land suitable for the purpose, it has not been possible to do that up to the present but there are other examples of the alternative work which could be provided.

The same kind of problem existed in Germany, the harvesting of turf for the summer and no work available in the winter. In that case they put up many acres of glasshouses where they grew all kinds of bulbs and flowers during the winter period and certain classes of vegetables which fetched a high price. They trapped the steam from the generating stations and were able to run a very successful economic unit in the production of flowers and vegetables as an adjunct to the main problem of winning turf to keep the electricity stations going. Some consideration ought to be given to that. We cannot pretend that Bord na Móna employment is satisfactory so long as it is associated by those not living in the Board's houses with four months' unemployment in the year and difficulties in finding any alternative employment.

The Minister refers to the sale of houses by the Board or the possibility that the Board will let these houses. Unfortunately the Board got itself in a strait-jacket because of the provision that it could only let these houses to their own servants, with the result that many of these houses were vacant, and vacant for long periods too. The Board was unable to find tenants for them and was unable to allow in as tenants persons who were not in the Board's employment. Now after many years' experience of that uneconomic running of houses, the Board apparently wants to be allowed to sell or let the houses.

One unsatisfactory feature about these Bord na Móna houses which ought to be recognised at the outset is that the Bord na Móna house has all the difficulties of the old tied cottage. Where the farmer let his man into a cottage, when he lost his job as a farmer not only did he go out of the job but he went out of the house. Although this is 1961 and everybody is pleased with the departure of the tied cottage from our social life, Bord na Móna houses are still tied houses. If you lose your job with Bord na Móna for any reason at all—it may even be your own physical inability to work—the Board will take steps to recover the house from you so that you not only lose your job but your house as well. Bord na Móna have taken people to court from time to time to recover possession of these houses which is not a very pleasant exercise either for the Board or for the tenant. I think it is a feature of these lettings which ought to have been considered earlier and certainly ought to be considered now with a view to obviating that kind of difficulty arising in future. Suppose for any reason a person loses his job with Bord na Móna, perhaps in circumstances not within his own control. Surely it would be desirable that he would have the opportunity of remaining on in the house and paying the Board a rent if he can no longer continue physically to work for the Board or if he happens to get some other more congenial kind of employment and wants to remain in the house for which there is no other demand? It is not unreasonable in these cases that the person should be allowed and that the Board should have authority to let such houses.

I think the Board may find it extremely difficult to sell these houses, situated where they are. The houses in the main have been put into the centre of the bogs where Bord na Móna were carrying on their turf development work. They suffer from all the social disadvantages of being very isolated. I should not think, taking the long view, that many persons would be keen on buying these houses unless they are prepared to face up to travelling long distances from their place of employment to their place of residence.

It would be worth while for the Board to consider whether it would not dispose of these houses which it does not require by offering them for sale to the local authority and letting the local authority, which is the natural housing authority, see in what way they could usefully let these houses having regard to the demand for houses by applicants living in these areas. It seems to me that that would be a better idea than for the Board to advertise them for public auction and then to endeavour to sell them in that way.

I am not sure that there will be a tremendous crowd seeking to purchase these Bord na Móna houses. It is better that they would consider selling a batch or block of them to the local authority or, in all events, letting the local authority administer the letting or sale of them. In that way you can have some order in the scheme where the local authority exercise not merely the powers of a housing authority but the powers of a local authority, a sanitary authority and a health authority as well.

One must remember in connection with the Bord na Móna housing schemes—this fact is I think acknowledged by the directors and certainly by the management and executives of Bord na Móna—that the building of these houses did in fact cause a social problem in these areas. One can see that the breadwinner will get employment. He has a wife and a number of young boys and girls growing to adolescence. For the boys, you can probably get work footing turf during the harvesting operations when turf is ready to be footed. You may do so for the girls but that is an extremely short period of employment and there is no other employment for girls in these particular areas.

I discussed with the Chairman of Bord na Móna the possibility that the board would take on some ancillary activity such as the establishment of some sort of knitting factory in these places so that the girls in these Bord na Móna houses might get employment in a local factory regularly which would be run on commercial lines. At present, both the Bord na Móna officials and the tenants of these houses will tell you that there is no work around these areas for the female members of a family. That fact apparently was not sufficiently weighted when the board decided to erect the houses in these places.

Is the Minister in a position to give us any idea of the lifetime of the bogs which are being used to feed the turf-fired electricity generating stations? We may take it that the bogs we intend to develop this year, next year and down to 1968-69 will be capable of carrying on in the new situation. Ultimately, of course, we know that the bogs will be so exploited that their lifetime as suppliers of fuel will come to an end. Can the Minister at this stage give us any idea as to what future is then envisaged for the generating stations which have been erected and which one day will reach the stage at which, while you have the station there, you have no fuel of the kind for which it was built available in the area. Is it contemplated, for example, converting these to use some other type of fuel?

I do not think the possibility of using nuclear energy in these small electricity generating stations will arise for a very long time, judging by what the experts say on that matter. At present, I think the experts would say that the whole country is too small and its electricity demands too small for the establishment even of a single nuclear electricity generating station. Perhaps the Minister, who has more up-to-date information on the point, might be able to tell us what the E.S.B. and Bord na Móna visualise as the ultimate use for these stations when the bogs, having been cut away, are no longer capable of supplying fuel for the present turf-fired stations?

Mr. Childers

I wish to thank Deputies for their friendly reception of this Bill. Deputy Cosgrave asked some questions about the future of the electric power programme when the peat bogs have been fully exploited. It is envisaged that the bogs will be fully utilised within 25 or 30 years. I understand that the power stations will, by that time, be regarded as virtually worn out, subject to some new technique being developed that might alter that position.

In so far as the fuel to be used in future, after 1968, is concerned, it is very hard to be certain what it will be because techniques are constantly changing. I imagine oil will play a very large part—oil processed at the Whitegate refinery. Experiments with both winds and tides proved disappointing and unremunerative. I think the House knows that surveys are being undertaken in the Arigna colliery area to find out if any reserve of coal can be used by present or improved processes to extend the Arigna power station. That could never contribute a very great part to the programme but it would naturally be considered.

In so far as the bogs themselves are concerned, it is intended that they should be developed for agriculture or forestry and some work of an experimental kind has already been done. I am told that Lyrecrompane bog is most likely to be utilised for forestry in the first instance and it will be sold to the Department of Lands for that purpose.

I am afraid the day has not yet been reached when a sufficient amount of land is being made available so that turf workers can be assured of a full week's wage working on forestry in the months in which they are not employed by Bord na Móna, when laid off. No doubt as time goes on, when forestry really begins, there will be very definite co-ordination in regard to employment of the turf workers themselves and other persons employed in the district to ensure maximum permanent employment in the area. We must wait a good number of years before we can see that operating in a satisfactory and effective way.

The E.S.B. are keeping under review the whole question of atomic power. As Deputies have already said, atomic power is far too expensive at the moment for us to consider it, even if we had one station for the whole of the 32 Counties. I have been told recently that with improved techniques, it might be possible to consider an atomic power station in the next ten or 15 years but all that depends on cost. In the meantime, as the House knows, the total reserves of oil in the world are constantly increasing and power derived from oil at the moment is very much more inexpensive than power derived from atomic sources.

Deputy Cosgrave asked for the comparative thermal capacity of briquettes and sod peat. Briquettes have a thermal capacity of 8,000 British Thermal Units per 1b. and sod peat, 6,000.

I want to assure Deputy Norton that I meet the Board and the Chairman of Bord na Móna at regular intervals and I am always asking them to see what they can do to expand employment with the Board. The Research Department has been working effectively and some of these developments such as the use of powdered peat, have been very successful, but the company using this process is operating in Drogheda. All I can say is that Bord na Móna and all State companies are pressed to see how they can extend their own manufacturing activities and help others to do so also. I do not think it would be possible for some time to consider full-time employment for Bord na Móna workers. The Board do everything they can to ensure that there is a maximum period of work but, as Deputies know, turf must compete with coal and other fuels to the maximum degree, particularly in relation to the sale of briquettes. The accounts of Bord na Móna show that while they are able to repay advances to the Minister for Finance each year on a very satisfactory basis, there is absolutely no surplus available. It is a very tightly-run concern in which there must be maximum efficiency and output. It is equally true to say that, not all the workers but a good number of them, are able to earn very satisfactory wages on the basis of bonus incentive payments during the season. I think the corps of Bord na Móna workers staying with the company will gradually grow, particularly now that we are to have a pension scheme which I think will decrease the annual wastage of turf workers that has occurred up to now.

Deputy Cosgrave asked for the number of houses vacant. Bord na Móna have built 574 houses and 104 are vacant, of which 69 are vacant at Clontuscairt in Roscommon and Rochefort Bridge. The vacancies are concentrated largely in two areas. The turnover of labour has been fairly high in Bord na Móna and that perhaps reduced the number of houses they anticipated being occupied. The change-over from sod turf to milled peat also had an effect on the number of houses likely to be occupied in various areas. I think it can be taken for granted that the Board will take account of the problems that arise in relation to the sale or letting of these houses other than to persons employed by them and I am sure all the statements made by Deputy Lemass will be considered in that connection.

It is possible for local authorities to buy the houses from Bord na Móna which they regard as permanently surplus to their needs. The Board do not intend to sell their houses to tenants so that the idea that persons who do not really intend to remain employees of the Board could take tenancy of a house and eventually buy it cannot arise. Naturally, employees leaving the service of the Board may be required to vacate the houses. Deputy Norton spoke of the difficulty in some areas where workers lose employment altogether and are made to vacate the houses. Under certain circumstances, when this Bill has been passed, they may be able to keep on the tenancy, provided the house is regarded as permanently surplus to the needs of the Board. There should be some advantage in that respect.

Deputy Norton spoke of the difficulty of tied houses. Houses belonging to the Board are necessarily tied because they are the only houses in these areas for the Board's employees. I have no information as to whether Bord na Móna will have difficulty in disposing of their houses; there still is a demand for houses in various districts. Perhaps they will be able to sell them to local authorities or private individuals.

I think I have answered all the points raised in regard to the Bill and again I should like to thank Deputies for the way they have received it. I agree with everything that has been said about the imagination shown and technical ability of the officers of Bord na Móna in designing new apparatus and adapting existing techniques to the requirements of this country and in going ahead with the job in the splendid way they have done it.

Mr. Tully

May I ask a question ? The Minister said in his reply that because of the introduction of a pension scheme, the number of permanent employees of the Board would probably increase. Is he aware that, in fact, Bord na Móna officials have been telling the trade unions the direct opposite—that over the years they expect the number employed by Bord na Móna gradually to diminish?

Mr. Dillon

I want to ask one question about a point on which the Minister touched in connection with briquettes. When we were in Government, we established a briquette factory with a considerable capacity and I remember postponing the decision as to whether the second briquette factory should go ahead until we assessed the demand for the output of the first big briquette factory. Now that we have two briquette factories working, how is the demand for briquettes corresponding with the productive capacity of the two big new factories?

Mr. Childers

So far as I am aware it is almost impossible to fill the demand for briquettes. In commencing the second factory manufacturing 100,000 tons a year the Board are fully confident at the moment that they will be able to dispose of the full output. The export market, particularly in Northern Ireland, shows lively promise. During last winter, which was not a severe winter, the demand for briquettes far exceeded the supply. A market research inquiry was conducted in some of the counties not in the turf area. It was found, both in the rural and urban areas, that 41 per cent. of the families interviewed were using briquettes at one time or another during the year for one purpose or another. The Board are fully confident that sales will remain satisfactory, provided the price is kept competitive.

Mr. Norton

Is not the position at the moment that briquettes are rationed to turf vendors? Is that not an indication of the demand?

Mr. Childers

I would not be surprised.

Mr. Dillon

I hope the Minister has expressed his admiration of the prescience of the inter-Party Government in developing the first bog for this purpose.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Childers

Would the House be willing to give me all stages now or would Deputies prefer to wait until next week?

Mr. Dillon

Unless the Minister has a reason for urgency, I would prefer for procedural purposes to wait until next week.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 29th November, 1961.