Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Mar 1962

Vol. 193 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 44—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £250,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1962, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of Sundry Grants-in Aid.—(Minister for Industry and Commerce.)

Mr. Leneghan

I would not say anything at all in regard to this matter, were it not for the attitude of Deputy Byrne who spoke last night. I welcome any money which is made available by this House for the development of industry and I believe that the policy of the Government in dispersing industries as widely as possible throughout the country is the right one.

Deputy Byrne said here last night that industries should be made as large as possible and should be confined to restricted areas. I expect his attitude was that all the industries should be set up in the big cities. I cannot agree with the mentality of the city Deputy who cannot see any further out than the confines of the city. It would be a rather sad day for our country if we were to pursue such a policy and further denude the countryside of its population. If we ever reach the position in which we all live in cities, we shall become a nation of morons. Anything the Government can do to disperse industries as widely as possible throughout the land should be done.

Fears have been expressed in regard to the closing of industries. If you do not open an industry you cannot close it. I have not heard any serious comments made on all the industries which closed in the period from 1948 to 1951 and from 1954 to 1957, periods during which no industries were opened but in which many industries were closed. No comment has been made on that.

The Minister should consider the western areas where there were large populations which, as a result of lack of industry, tended to decline very seriously. No matter how small the industry is that the Minister can bring to any western town, it will be of tremendous value there. Deputies said that some of these industries give employment only to girls or women. They have not to go very far from their own country to a place where there is nothing else happening. In Derry, they will find all the men out wheeling prams and the women out working. Whether we employ men or women, the attitude should be to employ them anyway, or at least give them the alternative of employment in their own country as against emigrating to Britain.

These industries should be based in the rural towns. There is not much difference between taking people from the West of Ireland to Dublin and taking them from the West of Ireland to London. The Minister is following the proper course and should not be deterred by reactionaries who would reverse his policy if they got the opportunity. I do not think it is likely that they will ever get that opportunity again. I commend the Minister for making this money available and if there is any criticism I have to offer it is that it is not enough.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

The reason I intervene in this debate is that it is the only opportunity a Deputy has to express his opinion regarding siting of industries. I am not opposed in any way to the setting up of industries on the Western seaboard or in what are called the undeveloped areas but it seems to me that Foras Tionscal is the only body which has the power to site industries. This creates a difficult problem for any Deputy who does not live in an undeveloped area.

I am not satisfied that Foras Tionscal are taking an unbiased view with regard to the siting of industres. I believe it is the intention of Foras Tionscal to site every industry in an undeveloped area rather than elsewhere. The purpose of Foras Tionscal, I take it, is to retain our people in the country and for that reason to site industries in the most advantageous positions. Therefore, it seems to me that if any desirable project is to go to an area outside the undeveloped areas, it should be assisted by Foras Tionscal.

I know of several specific cases in my own side of the country where projects have been refused by Foras Tionscal. Although I applied to the Minister concerned, who has always been receptive to proposals made to him, he had no power to do anything at all. It was in the hands of Foras Tionscal to decide where the industry went and the Irish Development Association, who are in a position to give funds for the setting up of industries, are, to a large extent, controlled by Foras Tionscal. One is told that the siting of industries is dependent on the question of local employment and so on. There is unemployment and definite unemployment in every rural part of Ireland. The great difficulty at the moment is that our people are leaving rural Ireland. They are moving to Dublin or some other place where they believe factories may be sited.

I agree that industries should not be sited in Dublin if it is possible to site them outside the metropolitan area. I want to mention one or two cases here where I was absolutely powerless to do anything. There is an old established shipbuilding industry situated near my constituency and they felt they could give a great measure of employment if a certain amount of capital, not a very great amount, was made available to them. They were prepared to put up and help put up a lot of money on their own behalf. They had gained for themselves over the years valuable experience in building fishing boats and in exporting them. They felt that they could double their employment and help the people locally.

The matter was referred to Foras Tionscal and the reply came back that they could not be considered for a grant because there was a parallel industry in Dublin. The industry in Dublin is not a parallel industry. It is a shipbuilding industry and is not competing in the same trade at all. Even if it were, the industry of which I have spoken was established long before the Dublin one. I was powerless to do anything. I could not raise the matter in the Dáil by way of Question because I would be told by the Minister that it was a matter for Foras Tionscal and that he had no say in it. Deputies are being hamstrung more and more because these statutory bodies are becoming the final arbiters in everything and there is no reference to the Minister. That is the type of legislation that is being set up here. It is unsatisfactory in a democratic State.

I know another instance, this time in my own constituency. A sizeable industry had an opportunity of coming there. The people concerned were non-nationals who would site a factory in my area. Again the matter was referred to Foras Tionscal and they decided that the site was not suitable but, instead of sending the industry to the West of Ireland, on this occasion they sent it to Dublin. If Dublin looks for an industry it gets preference over any part of rural Ireland.

These decisions are taken by Foras Tionscal and what it amounts to is a direction of policy. If people are to come here and start an industry they want the full sympathy and co-operation of the authority. It seems to me that the policy of Foras Tionscal is to site everything in the West and, failing that, to site it in Dublin.

There is a tendency in the industrialisation of this country to think in terms of thousands. If people come in here with a big project and want to put in £100,000 of their own money while asking for a grant of £300,000 everybody will be running after them with a cheque book. Small local industries are what are needed in rural Ireland. That is what happened in the poorest part of France, in Brittany, where the land was poor and the people were leaving. Small rural industries were set up there and saved the countryside but here it does not seem to be any use making an application for a small rural industry. If you go to the powers concerned for the small sum of £3,000, £4,000, £5,000 or even less you have no chance whatever. That is where the mentality is wrong. If we are to keep and maintain our people in this country, and maintain them where they were born, bred and reared—and that is the only hope for Ireland; it is the only hope in the industrialisation, really, of Ireland, in maintaining the equality of a population and the stability of a country —we must do it by small rural industries.

If I came to the Minister for Industry and Commerce with plans for a small endeavour, I am certain he would give me full and sympathetic consideration. He would like to see a rural industry, although he is a city man, because he has had enough experience in the Department to know that the population is leaving rural Ireland. At the same time, he would refer me back to Foras Tionscal and I would not get my money.

I know a specific case. A person employing 15 or 20 girls in the manufacture of soft goods for export, for which they had an illimitable export market, was precluded from expanding purely by reason of the fact that she had no funds. We applied twice on her behalf but we could not get a penny. They had a full export market. Everything they were making was being exported. This was typical of rural industry.

The lady who owned the factory told me that mothers of girls in the district were coming to her and asking her to take on more girl employees. She was willing and happy to do so, but she could not do so because of lack of money. She started the industry, financing it herself by borrowing money from relations up to the hilt. She wanted £5,000 so as to employ another 15 persons.

Mr. Corish

On a point of order, I know there may not be much time every day, but as we sit for about 13 hours a week I wonder if it would be possible for the work now being done in the precincts of the House to be done outside those hours. It is very difficult to hear the speaker.

An Ceann Comhairle

I shall see if anything can be done.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I had almost concluded my speech.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Deputy now has a second wind.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

If you want to save rural Ireland, you must turn your eyes to rural Ireland. You must turn your eyes away from the big man and aid and support the small person. I do not think there is a rural Deputy who would not agree with what I have said. I have been fighting for that for years—since I came into this House— and my words have been falling on deaf ears.

If we get into the Common Market —I have my doubts on that subject— we must remember that if we have huge industries with large capital investment in remote parts of the country, they may not survive. There is not the same reason for them to survive. It may be argued that if there is a lot of foreign capital in this country, then it is safe and they are here for all time.

At the moment, there is a tremendous measure of prosperity within the Six of the European Economic Community. I know that some of the big firms there have very big orders, up to, say, £2 million or £3 million. Owing to lack of factory space, owing to lack of personnel, they are not able to meet those orders. It is very easy for them to come to Ireland and to avail of all the facilities offered to them. Everyone is following them around with a cheque book and offering them money. Maybe they manufacture or process £750,000 worth of stuff here and that gives useful local employment. It is a bait, a short-term bait, that anybody will swallow. Naturally, any public representative in the area will be glad to see them. However, there is no guarantee that they will not up tools and run away when they have filled a particular order. That is the reason I ask the Minister to consider changing the whole policy and concentrating on many industries all over the place. I do not mean, now, in small towns but in villages which are disappearing by reason of emigration. By starting industries there, you will save Ireland: this is the only way to do it.

Mr. Dolan

Ba mhaith liom cupla focal a rá agus comhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Aire agus le Foras Tionscal ar an obair atá déanta aca go nuige seo.

I welcome any extra money that may be spent by Foras Tionscal because I am conscious of the excellent work they are doing and have done since they were founded. The idea has been to help and encourage the establishment of industries in the undeveloped areas of our country. Those, as we know, are the poorer areas, the areas to which the people of Ireland clung when they were persecuted in former days. Those are the areas of the bad land, the uneconomic holdings and the small farmer.

In view of the changing pattern of life, not alone in rural Ireland but indeed in Scotland and other countries where people in small and uneconomic holdings such as these are now prone to drift into emigration or into the bigger cities, this represents a long-felt want. It will give a much-needed shot in the arm to the economy of those poor areas which are trying to establish some industries or to boost the economy.

If at all possible, I think that, in these areas, apart from the bigger industries, we should try to go in for something select. I feel there is a good market among our exiles, if it were properly developed, for select articles, well-made and well-turned out, notably Irish linen. I have been told that despite new products made from rayon, and so on, there is no more suitable or welcome gift in the United States than a gift of Irish linen and I could also say gifts of other Irish products that are well and fashionably turned out. That would be a very good programme for us more or less to concentrate on, to try to have some select industries, if at all possible.

With regard to the location of industry, naturally foreigners must have a good say as to where they wish to establish their industries. It is more or less to weight the balance and to encourage them to go into those areas that they get the extra grant from Foras Tionscal. In this respect, people who have been in industry in these areas—some of them for the past 50 or 60 years—and whose machinery is now becoming out of date and obsolete should be considered under this scheme in a kindly way and should get a grant to replace that machinery.

It would be well if the Minister now and in the future concentrated more on the north-west of the country. In the other areas, notably the south and south-west, a great number of industries have already been established so that unemployment in these areas is very low in comparison with the north-west. As some Deputies mentioned last night, around the Border counties and the north-west, there is a good pool of labour, of willing and honest workers. That, in itself, should be an incentive to any foreigner looking for a suitable site for an industry and wishing to avail of these grants.

It is well known that, in bygone days, when foreigners came here to establish factories, notably in Ulster, the industry left its mark on the history of the country. The Irish workers learned a lot in the way of technique from the foreigners. Now, with rural electrification, there is no reason why areas like that should not come in for a fair share of the new factories that are being established. It is very important that these people should see that some effort is being made to sustain them in the hard battle which they have in order to exist in reasonable comfort. Any project, notably this one, should be welcomed if it helps them in any way. Probably in those areas, the creamery counties, industries could profitably be established to manufacture something from milk other than the traditional pound of butter. Some moves have been made in that direction but there are many other avenues that might be explored to dispose of the surplus milk produced by small farmers in these areas. There are big pig populations in these areas, on which it should be possible also to base some industry.

These are the points I should like the Minister to bear in mind. I do not suggest that it is easy for him to do an enormous amount and I should like to congratulate him and Foras Tionscal on the work they have been doing and on the fact that, as he has told us, 70 new projects have been sanctioned quite recently. That, in itself, is sufficient evidence that the people are fairly well aware of the help and encouragement which Foras Tionscal will give them. Somebody mentioned that it was regrettable that Drogheda or some such town could not get a certain industry because it was not an undeveloped area. It should be borne in mind that it is in the areas for which Foras Tionscal caters that it is most difficult for promotors of industry to get the necessary local capital and that it would not be much use for anybody to go around in some of the poorer areas trying to get local people to subscribe £15,000, £20,000 or £30,000 to start a factory. There would be no hope whatever of getting it. In other areas people are much better off by reason of their past history and so on. For the time being the Minister is doing a wise thing in encouraging industrialists to site factories in the undeveloped areas. Later, he may consider the suggestions made by some Opposition Deputies so that when these first factories are well established the same facilities might be given all over the country.

Mr. Sherwin

I have only a little to say and that is in regard to Dublin. It has been said by rural Deputies that Dublin is especially favoured, or words to that effect. I understand their point of view, representing rural Ireland, and I agree to a large extent that industry should be staggered so that people will remain in rural areas but there is a problem in Dublin that rural Deputies seem to forget. There is probably no work for manual workers in Dublin. There is plenty of work for young boys and girls but, as far as manual workers are concerned, what industries have been started for a number of years back that have absorbed any great number of manual workers?

I pressed this matter two years ago when I said that there were 20,000 people idle in Dublin, the majority of whom were manual workers. Whether there are 20,000 idle now or not I do not know but, if they are not idle, they are in England. I know that most of those without trades or technical qualifications have no choice but to take the boat and that is what they are doing. The main source of employment for such people is the building industry and, as far as municipal building is concerned, it nearly petered out two years ago. In fact, last year, according to statistics, there were only 300 engaged in the building of municipal dwellings. This year there is an improvement with 600 employed.

Mr. J. Lynch

Enough manual workers cannot be got for that industry.

Mr. Sherwin

Yes, because they have gone away. When there was no work to be found here about two years ago they all packed up and went away. Now, when they are wanted they are not here. Even manual workers require a certain amount of skill in the building industry but the fact remains that the majority of those engaged in building went away. That is the only industry that absorbs manual workers. There is no choice for the manual worker therefore but to take the boat. The country people have not much to complain about. They do not all go away; they come to Dublin. The last census has proved that one-third of the people in Dublin were actually born in rural Ireland and we have a majority of Deputies from rural Ireland. Dublin is going to Britain. That is the position. I am here to fight for the old Dublin. My name is Sherwin and my forbears must have come here with the Danes 800 years ago so that I am an old Dubliner, formerly of County Dublin, with my family living here for centuries. I am interested in the old Dublin manual workers, the poorer classes that have to go away in droves. There is need for industry in Dublin to give maximum employment to manual workers.

I shall say no more now. I know the problem and let me tell the Minister that I expect in about two years from now building of dwellings will start to peter out again and in three years from now no more than 200 or 300 people will be employed in that work. I am anticipating that time so that the Minister will think of aiding industries in Dublin that will give employment to manual workers. I have a meeting to go to but I want to make Dublin's position clear. Our people take the boat to a greater extent than do people from rural Ireland.

Mr. Barrett

I should like to express satisfaction at the fact that the Minister is recruiting young, intelligent and industrious men to such boards as An Foras Tionscal. As regards the moneys made available by such bodies we should remember that it is not simply the fact that the money is being spent that should give us satisfaction. Quite often the only yardstick by which we measure activity in this country is the amount of money spent on this or that. Very frequently in local government local bodies congratulate themselves on spending so many thousands on roads and so on, not counting the value they got for it. It is not the fact as the Minister said that An Foras Tionscal holds total property investments of about £15 million that is important: what is much more important is that the money should be properly spent and maximum value received for it.

Several speakers before me in this debate expressed fears—not personal fears but fears of their constituents— about the collapse of a number of projects in this country in recent times. It is something many intelligent, farsighted businessmen foresaw. I should like the Minister and the House to remember that where you have free or cheap money or concessions of any kind, there also will you find the 67 different varieties of chancers and racketeers ready to come in and avail of it. For that reason, I make no apology for reiterating the opinions that many other Deputies expressed in this debate, that the Minister should attempt to have more control of the running of projects of the nature referred to. We do not want the "here today and gone tomorrow" type of industrialist who will come, take all he gets and be able to leave without any personal loss.

That is the danger I see in projects of this nature. While the aim is worthy, our enthusiasm to attract foreign capitalists or foreign skills should not make us fail to make proper inquiries about the type of person who is coming here to avail of the concessions that are being given. We are attracting in foreign capital and foreign capitalists. They come here and set up industries and give some employment. What we should ensure is that they will not be in a position to fold their tents over-night and disappear like the Arabs in the desert.

Mr. McQuillan

One of the most interesting features of this debate has been to see Deputies who, over the years, have described themselves as the apostles of private enterprise— and that includes members on both sides of the House, of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael—and argued that the salvation of this country and its economy lay in the hands of private enterprise, now with their hands out prepared to dip into the national purse for moneys to bolster up incompetent and inefficient private enterprises.

That is what Foras Tionscal are doing under the Undeveloped Areas Act. They are handing out the Irish people's money in a haphazard fashion, with no planned integration of the economic fabric, in a hit or miss fashion, so far as economic development is concerned. We have the extraordinary position that these apostles of private enterprise, inside this House and outside it, want the people's money handed over to private enterprise, without any control being exercised thereafter as to how that money taken in taxation from the public will be utilised or what return will be given for it. I know of no such system in any intelligently run State in the world today.

The first point I should like to make is in criticism of the number of Deputies who have said here that the Minister has no function in this matter with regard to the allocation of grants. That is where these people I describe as the apostles of private enterprise come into the picture. They say it would be wrong for the Minister in a political capacity to have any say with regard to the direction taken by Foras Tionscal. What do we do in this House? We hand over to an anonymous group of civil servants the spending of the Irish taxpayers' money. I should prefer to depend on the integrity of a politician any day than on the actions of anonymous people over whom this House has no control. There is one definite thing: a politician or a Minister has a responsibility when he comes into this House and if he has responsibility for Foras Tionscal and for the spending of money, he is open to question in this House by every Deputy. He is open to question on all actions and decisions with regard to that money.

The present situation is that the Minister hands it over to Foras Tionscal, and if a member of the House wants to find out whether the money is well spent or badly spent, or whether a concern is paying slave wages and utilising the services of young girls of 17 years of age who have to cycle seven or eight miles to work and draw £2 8s. or £2 15s. a week, he is stymied in asking questions and will be told by the Minister that he has no function in the matter and no responsibility for Foras Tionscal. We have a responsibility in this House to the Irish public and to the employees. Let us make no mistake about it: the impact made by Foras Tionscal on the employment figure is negligible. I should like the Minister to tell us the total number of the new labour force working as a result of the activities of Foras Tionscal. What percentage is male and what percentage is female? I should also like him to give us the average wages of both groups over the entire labour content.

I do not propose to deal in detail with individual concerns, but I know there is a good deal of suspicion in the public mind that the money being handed out to a number of outfits is not being well spent, and that the worker is not getting a just return or a fair wage for the work he puts into the particular industry or concern. The extraordinary thing to me is that many of these industries or factories are dependent also totally on the importation of raw materials from abroad. We all know that no control can be exercised within this State on the price of the imported raw materials. No control can be exercised and no guarantee can be given with regard to their availability over any long term. Yet it is into industrial concerns based on raw materials from abroad that most of the taxpayers' money is going, so far as Foras Tionscal are concerned. If a grant is requested for an industry based on the land of Ireland, it is a sheer waste of time to knock on the door of Foras Tionscal. If you have a foreign accent and if you are prepared, as another Deputy said, to talk in anything from thousands upward, the magic red carpet is laid out to welcome you.

Mr. J. Lynch

Why does the Deputy make general charges? Why does he not give specific instances of such cases? He is not convincing anyone with his general charges.

Mr. McQuillan

I am not concerned about convincing the Minister personally because he is beyond convincing.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Deputy is talking to the public and hoping they are swallowing it.

Mr. McQuillan

I do not think it would be fair to deal specifically with all the cases I could deal with in this House.

Mr. Gallagher

Give one.

Mr. McQuillan

If Deputy Gallagher would like me to deal with his one——

Mr. Gallagher

The Deputy may.

Mr. McQuillan

Deputy Gallagher is the one man in this House who should keep his mouth closed with regard to industry.

Mr. J. Lynch

He could shout it from the rooftops. Before Deputy Gallagher ever thought of coming into this House, he put his own money into an industry in the west of Ireland.

Mr. Meaney

It is everyone in the House except Mutt and Jeff.

Mr. McQuillan

I do not know what that comment by the Deputy from Cork means—a Deputy who took a long time to get into this House and is now in his second childhood. I do not want to utilise this House for the purpose of criticising Deputy Gallagher. I admit a big improvement has taken place recently in the concern with which he is associated. He will appreciate that I had correspondence in regard to personnel with him when he opened in this concern and, if Deputy Gallagher wants to discuss that inside or outside this House, and wants to discuss the type of product that came out of his factory, and the complaints that were made about it at the time, I shall be willing to discuss everything with him. I am glad to say a big improvement has taken place in that concern and I make him a present of that.

Mr. Gallagher

The Deputy's contribution adds nothing to this House. If the Deputy had a better sense of fairplay instead of criticising others, he might get somewhere.

Mr. McQuillan

I did not have to spend £3,000 on an election campaign in order to be elected to this House. I did not have to give free petrol to people for the next five years in order to get elected to this House. If I am drawn on this, those who draw me will be sorry.

Mr. J. Lynch

I am prepared to take the Deputy on at any time if the Deputy wants to say anything about me and my administration. I am prepared to take the Deputy on anywhere.

Mr. McQuillan

Let us be clear on this. As far as the efforts made by Foras Tionscal to develop the industrial potential of the country are concerned, the impact is negligible in the areas in which it should be strongest. Has An Foras Tionscal ever produced a plan for a specific area and said that, inside that area, a key industry would be started and on that key industry a number of ancillary industries would grow? Where have An Foras Tionscal taken any section of the country in order to carry out an intelligently planned industrial operation? Did An Foras Tionscal ever try to do something similar to what has been done in Wales and Scotland? A Deputy on the Fianna Fáil benches referred to both Wales and Scotland not twenty minutes ago. Did An Foras Tionscal ever study the way in which the British Government between 1945 and 1950 utilised State funds and State enterprise to restore Wales to the position in which it is today and to lift the uneconomic holder and the unemployed in Scotland to the position where they have first-class wages and permanent employment? That was not done by private enterprise. That was not done by handing out State money ad lib. to any speculator or foreigner to induce him to go into a particular locality. It was done as part of an over-all plan and, when the foundations were laid, it was left to private enterprise then to move in and start the ancillary industries.

There are no foundations laid here in the form of key industries on which private enterprise could ultimately base itself. It is simply a question of a local development committee in a small town getting together and worrying. Ballina gets an industry. The people in Claremorris feel they are as much entitled to an industry as Ballina. The people in Roscommon see an industry established in Ballyhaunis or Rossmore. They ask themselves why there should not be an industry in Roscommon. A local industry starts somewhere and immediately there is a descent on An Foras Tionscal by every small town asking if that body can get a Frenchman, a German, or an American to help them to start an industry, that there is plenty of labour available.

The promoter will start his industry to suit himself, not to suit the rural area or to fit into some over-all picture that may be in the minds of the Government. He may want to live in the locality. If he likes Killarney, he will go to Killarney and start his industry there, destroying the picturesque countryside with his buildings. Nobody objects. He is giving employment. He may be making cranes or warlike materials. That is actually happening in that part of the country. He cannot make warlike materials in Germany, but he can make them in Killarney. Is there any objection voiced? Not at all. If there is a bit of employment given in a locality people will sell their immortal souls, and the countryside with them.

There is no planned industrial development in that performance. In case the Minister may say that I am wrong in that, that there is a plan in operation, and that we have one in Shannon, let us ask ourselves what have we in Shannon? We have an industrial estate. How many of the industries there are making the finished product out of native raw materials? What guarantee have we with regard to even one that they will not close up within the next two years? What control are the Government exercising, on behalf of the Irish people, over these industries which have got such substantial and generous State aid? Is it the position that we just hand over the Irish people's money to the foreign speculator, tell him it is his, that he has ten years to make his profits, that he need pay no tax so long as he exports the finished product, and good luck to him? At the end of ten years any intelligent speculator can tell himself that he has made five times what he put into this industry. There is no control over him in the form of a contract compelling him to stay on for another five, ten, or fifteen years. What is to prevent him getting out?

I know for a fact that in Germany and France industrialists and others connected with business could not believe their ears when they heard the wireless broadcast by some Irish citizen about the wonderful attractions here in Ireland for industrial development— Come to Ireland: there is a cheap and docile pool of labour available.

Mr. J. Lynch

That was never said. I deny that emphatically.

Mr. McQuillan

It was said at seven o'clock in the morning.

Mr. J. Lynch

Produce some evidence.

Mr. McQuillan

It was said that there was a willing and disciplined pool of labour available in Ireland at a cheaper rate than it is available in France and Germany. That statement was made over the wireless.

Mr. J. Lynch

The words used were "intelligent and willing labour pool". "Cheap" and "docile" were never once used. The Deputy uses them now to throw mud.

Mr. McQuillan

A disciplined labour pool at a cheaper rate than could be got in France and Germany.

Mr. J. Lynch

Is the Deputy withdrawing the words "docile and cheap"?

Mr. McQuillan

No, because that was the interpretation and the fact that it was the interpretation has been clearly demonstrated in regard to one or two concerns which came over here and said: "We thought we would have no trouble with trade unions at all in this country. We were told we would get away with anything we liked. We were told `Give work to these people and you can pay them less than you would pay in Germany and France, and get away with it'." They got a hell of a shock when they came up against the trade unions and were told where they got off by a number of them. They were told they were not welcome, and they are not welcome. In my constituency within the next few months we may have an industry in which some Germans are interested. I made it clear to these people that, as far as I am concerned, they will pay trade union wages.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Deputy will have no say in it. He is neither a trade unionist nor an employer.

Mr. McQuillan

I will have the say that I represent the people and the Minister and his Party will bow to public opinion. This is still a democracy.

Mr. J. Lynch

When expression is fair, but not as the Deputy expresses himself.

Mr. McQuillan

The people put me here to express their views. They gave me a vote far above what the Minister's outfit got in that constituency. Whether the Minister likes it or not, he will have to take it. I offer goodwill to any industrialist who comes in to my constituency, but no industrialist will come in to exploit.

The closing down or shifting out of a number of concerns which got very generous help from the public purse is not relevant and I do not want to comment, but I think we should learn a lesson. The result of that lesson should be a reorganisation inside An Foras Tionscal. Whatever grants are made available in future for the establishment of factories, some form of control should be exercised to ensure that these concerns cannot pull out overnight, having made their profits. The Minister has a responsibility to the people in the State from whom he gets his money in the form of taxation to see their money is well spent.

The argument has been put forward that we will not get these people to come in. What do we want? Is it necessary to depend on these people? Is it essential for Ireland's future success in the industrial and economic field that she must depend almost completely on the goodwill of these speculative groups on the Continent of Europe and in America? Are we putting all our eggs into that private enterprise basket? Have we lost all confidence in our own people that they have not the skill, the technique and the training to do as well as these people who are coming in and who are getting Irish money to do a job Irishmen could do as well, as Irishmen are doing today in England, Canada and Australia?

The Minister frequently speaks in London. Whom does he meet over there? How many Irish scientists, engineers and skilled workmen has he met in the course of his travels and, in his suave, smooth manner told: "You can get jobs over in Ireland. We are doing our best"? Who is coming over? The foreigner is coming over and the most highly skilled Irishmen are working in first-class jobs in Britain, breaking their hearts to get back here. The Government say it is for private enterprise, not for the Government, to bring them over, but when we have a company like the Sugar Company prepared to bring them over, prepared to get down to the root of the problem in Ireland and process manufactured goods based on the soil of Ireland, what do we find? We find that such a company is told: "You cannot interfere with the existing private concern that is operating here. You cannot compete with X firm who are making jam; you cannot compete with Y firm who are processing peas."

Here is a large company prepared to draw its skilled personnel back from industries in Britain and put them at the disposal of the Irish people in order to give employment in Ireland and process what we can at home. No; we have no time for that. That is Irish. Here are the Government who talk about Irish industry and the development of Irish industry. They are suffering, of course, from the complex that there is nothing good in this country, that we must depend on the foreigner; tip your cap as in the old times to the ascendancy; tip your cap on this occasion to the foreign speculator and depend on him to do the job, that he will in turn become more Irish than the Irish themselves.

I cannot forecast, but the time is coming when a decision will be made on the Common Market. The decision will not lie in the hands of this Government or in the hands of the Opposition but, according to the papers in the past two days, the only difference now between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael on this question is that Fine Gael say: "We would have a better team to negotiate entrance into the Common Market than Fianna Fáil." Did anyone ever hear the like of that when neither of them has as much say in it as the man in the moon? However, come what may a decision has to be made on it outside this country and that decision will have a great bearing on a number of concerns which Foras Tionscal have responsibility for setting up. At this stage, has the Minister even wakened up to the fact that in the event of Ireland being associated with or going into the Common Market, all of what Foras Tionscal are doing will no longer be allowed, if the Treaty of Rome is to be adhered to? I doubt very much if these six European countries will say: "We like Deputy Jack Lynch — he is a fine lad and was a great hurler; we think on account of his courtesy and his manner we should give favourable terms to the industries he has set up under protection and to which he has given State money in order to compete with existing industries in Europe."

Mr. J. Lynch

Has the Deputy read the relevant Article of the Treaty of Rome?

Mr. McQuillan

I have read the Treaty of Rome.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Deputy is talking through his hat.

Mr. McQuillan

The Minister was asked here yesterday if he was prepared to comply with all the Articles of the Treaty of Rome and the Minister and his Leader said we were, because we have no option. We are going with our hands up politically and economically into the Common Market and we have nothing to offer except a base that could be used to close the alleged gap in the defences of so-called Christian Europe. However, that is outside this discussion.

The Minister will have to admit that out of the group of industrial concerns set up under Foras Tionscal, the maximum output of 60 per cent. is for export, the remainder being consumed, I presume, on the home market. Is he satisfied that the system which has operated since Foras Tionscal went in will be allowed in the next three, five or seven years up to 1970? Is he prepared to say at this stage that the system will have to be altered and altered drastically? Is he prepared even now to say: "We want to give a certain amount of control, at any rate, to the State in order to ensure that the Irish people's money is properly spent"?

I cannot oppose the giving of the money in present circumstances. Seeing that it has gone on for so many years, I do not think there is much point in suggesting at this stage that the money should not be given. It must be given at the present time, but surely the Minister should be prepared, before his main Estimate comes up, to let this House know he has now prepared a plan, with the advice and assistance of all the experts he has, that will enable us to see the overall picture of development over five-year periods, that he will be able to tell us that haphazard planning is going out.

Were it not for the danger or the possibility of the Common Market looming up, no efforts would be made even in that regard, but the question of the admission of Ireland into it will certainly do good, irrespective of what happens in regard to our application. It will shake us up here and bring home to the public that the kind of cuckooland the people have been living in will be no longer possible and that this sheltered outlook that has developed over the years can no longer obtain. The tragedy is that it is the Irish people who will suffer. Those who come in here and get money to set up industries will not suffer. They will have their money made and will depart and will be happy to say that this is a grand country, that there is grand scenery in it, that we are a soft-hearted people and that no other country in the world would give them the grants we gave them. That is the big weakness in giving these people the control they have.

If there is a big concern in some part of France, Britain or America and if the members of that firm wish to avail of the generous terms given in Ireland, they will do so, but if the home base finds that economic pressures are weakening, it is not the home factory that will close down but the factory in Ireland. We know how often that has happened.

This Government and Fine Gael are the same in this respect and the time for exposure is coming fast in the next two or three years. They are both worshippers at the feet of private enterprise and their worship in that respect has brought this country to the state where we have no bargaining power with regard to our application for admission to the Common Market. We have no healthy industrial concerns built up under this alleged industrial revival. There are a number of concerns which were built up under private enterprise in the years gone by without any help from the Government or anybody else but since 1932, the potential built up under private enterprise is not capable of meeting the volume of competition that is going to face it.

If we look at any concern built by the State in which the State itself kept control, we will see that they are the only groups within this country that are likely to be able to stand up to the competition. Is it not tragic that this type of development has not been applied to other aspects of our industrial potential and that these aspects have not been exploited by State or semi-State bodies? If we had done that over the years, we would now be in a much better position to face the competition of the Common Market.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. J. Lynch)

During this debate, a number of hares were raised. I would not mind if they were live ones but they were not, so I had better shoot them down right away. From what has been said here, one would imagine that every second industry established through assistance from Foras Tionscal had closed down. That is completely untrue. There is no ground whatever for these assertions. I have mentioned that there were some 70 of these industries in production and something in excess of 50 in course of development. Of the 70 odd, we have knowledge of only two that were unable to survive. There may have been others who had difficult times. Perhaps the promoters did not pursue the undertaking and they may have decided to change to another commodity, but we have knowledge of only two factories that were started and did not survive. They were very small ones started with the aid of a comparatively low State subvention in the form of a grant. By and large, there has been no history of failure, as many Deputies would seem to suggest.

Another of the hares raised was that Foras Tionscal favours foreigners. It was said: "All you have to have is a foreign accent and the red carpet is put out for you." I have tried time and time again to scotch these rumours and to prevail on people not to make assertions which they know are groundless. There is no truth whatever that Foras Tionscal favours foreigners in any way. They would be glad to see Irishmen coming forward with proposals for new industries or the expansion of old ones in any part of the country but particularly in the undeveloped areas which they would be able to help.

The other question raised, and about 75 per cent. of the Deputies who have spoken referred to it, was that industrialists who are coming in here are hoping to undermine the trade union set-up we have here, hoping to avoid employing our trade union workers. The suggestion was made in some cases that we tried to keep from them that we have trade unions and that these trade unions insist that the workers be paid minimum rates and work reasonable hours.

Again, I want to say very emphatically that Foras Tionscal, and the Industrial Development Authority, in the first instance, give prospective industrialists from outside the fullest possible information as to the industrial and labour relations background of this country. There is no truth whatever in the suggestion that we try to delude these industrialists about cheap and docile labour. In using that phrase, Deputy McQuillan has introduced a phrase which was never used by anybody in Foras Tionscal, the Industrial Development Authority or by me. He deliberately misinterpreted a phrase that was used which indicated that there was here in this country intelligent and adaptable labour. Any of us here can stand over such a phrase and, indeed, are proud to be able to use it.

I was asked specific questions about the extent to which foreign capital is invested vis-à-vis the grants approved. The amount of grants that will have been approved by the end of this year by Foras Tionscal is about £6,141,000 out of a total investment of about £15,000,000. The balance of £8,859,000 will be provided by the promoters themselves. I cannot say at this stage in what proportion these promoters bring in only their own money or are assisted by investments from Irish sources. There has been a considerable amount of such investment.

I have also been asked about rates of wages as between male and female workers and the number of workers at present engaged in these industries in relation to the ultimate number who will be employed. At the moment, a comprehensive review is being undertaken to see in what direction, if any, we ought to change in our industrial development programme, in our system of incentives for industrial development. Until such time as that is completed, it would not be possible for me to undertake to give details of any of these industries.

In my opening speech, I said that, of the 10,000 people in the industries these grants are intended to cover, the division as between male and female labour is 5,500 male against 4,500 female. These are maximum figures. They are only estimated figures as far as An Foras Tionscal is concerned.

When industrialists come to An Foras Tionscal, their proposals are examined minutely. They say, perhaps, they expect to employ X people; in the third year X plus Y people and, in the final year of development, maybe five years hence, 2XX people. It is from these figures, that are examined as closely as possible by An Foras Tionscal, that the estimated figures I have given are taken.

At this stage, it would be impossible to say how many are employed in these industries at their different stages, without the very comprehensive review which is now being undertaken. I suggest the figures have no meaning at present because some of these industries would necessarily have a slow start. Maybe, in their first, second or third years, their rate of development, as far as employment content is concerned, might be considered low, while in their fourth and fifth years, we might see a big influx of new workers to bring them up to the maximum number they said they would employ ultimately. I hope to have all the information, as a result of the review now being undertaken, before the new legislation will be introduced — which will be shortly, I hope — to replace existing legislation which will cease to have effect in 1963.

The suggestion has been made that we ought to insist on the appointment of a director to represent An Foras Tionscal to the extent of An Foras Tionscal's investment by way of grant in the enterprise. The greatest attraction of the grants we give is that they are without unnecessary strings. However, they are not without strings completely. They are without strings to the extent that we do not try, and I do not think we ought to try, to direct these firms on how they should run their undertakings.

In the first place, the grants are related to the viability of the proposed undertaking and, secondly, to the amount of capital these people are prepared to invest. As the general picture shows, the proportion is very much in our favour, £9 million as against £6 million in grants. I think that might represent a general pattern. Therefore, I do not see any foundation for the suggestion that these people, having availed of the grants paid to them here, can abscond overnight, leaving us holding the baby. Their solid money is in it, too, and in the form of bricks, mortar, steel, machinery and other fixed assets. Therefore, even if they go, they leave behind them what I suggest would be in each case solid security for the amount of the State investment, even though it is by way of grant.

We do not want to tell these people how to run their business. We do not want to breathe down their necks every time they turn in their factories or sit at their office desk. I do not think that to do that would prove successful. It would deter to a considerable extent the number of people likely to come here and, if we adopted these practices, certainly I would not be obliged to bring in a Supplementary Estimate at this time of the year, nor would there have been cause for any of the Supplementary Estimates introduced in past years.

However, there is this control. Each industrialist who receives a grant is obliged to sign an agreement with Foras Tionscal and it is a legal agreement. It was required ever since Foras Tionscal first began to give grants. Latterly, there was some suggestion that these agreements may not fully be enforceable in the event of one of these parties trying to avoid its terms. Therefore, we wrote into the 1961 Industrial Grants (Amendment) Act a section in which we said:

5. Where——

(b) the grant is made subject to any term restricting the disposal of factory sites or premises, or machinery and equipment (or any part of such sites or premises or such machinery and equipment) or, if the grantee is a company, shares in its capital, ...

That means that they sign an agreement whereby they bind themselves — and that has been written into our law — not to dispose of the buildings, land or any part of it, or of the shares without first getting the approval of An Foras Tionscal.

As far as the buildings and plant are concerned, they are bound for a period of 10 years and as far as shares are concerned they are bound under the terms of these agreements for a period of five years. Any apprehensions Deputies might have that these people can be fly-by-nights are disposed of by these three factors. We have to see the colour of their money as our money is advanced only in relation to the advances made by these people themselves.

In the published accounts of Foras Tionscal we see columns, "Amounts Approved", "Amounts Paid", "Amounts Outstanding." If the amount has been approved, it is not handed over — as I think Deputy McGilligan suggested — and that is the end of it: the amount approved is handed over, according as the factory is being built and the plant and machinery are being introduced into it. That is the first point to consider.

Secondly, they have to put in, in that proportion, their own capital. Ultimately, we find the factory there, which is solid security, by and large, for the amount of State grant put into it. Bricks, mortar, steel and machinery cannot be moved overnight.

Thirdly, there is the fact that they have that solid investment themselves and that they will not abandon it very lightly. We have not had any experience of these fly-by-nights or sudden fold-ups, as has been suggested. It is not fair to make such allegations.

I want to impress on Deputy McGilligan, in particular, that there have not been free hand-outs and the consequences which he mentioned. It is far from the case. One of the important aspects and terms of our grants system is that they are free of strings that would enable or entitle the Government to control the destinies of these private enterprise firms.

In respect of grants of a particularly high amount, there is a modicum of thinking that these grants should take the form of some kind of non-voting shareholding. In some cases, that has been suggested and it may be done. At the moment, however, we have not changed direction to any extent yet, until such time as the review to which I have referred has been completed.

With regard to the suggestion that An Foras Tionscal direct industries to go to certain places, I would point out that under the Undeveloped Areas Act An Foras Tionscal have no power of direction. Under the Industrial Grants Act, An Foras Tionscal are obliged to have regard to the provision enacted in this House which says:

2 (1) Whenever the Board—

(a) are of opinion that there are sound reasons why an industrial undertaking cannot be established or developed in the undeveloped areas ...

Apart from that, they have no say whatever — nor should they have — in the siting or location of industries. When they interpret that section of the 1959 Industrial Grants Act they interpret it not narrowly and not strictly, so that if a town like New Ross or Wexford or Drogheda procured an industry, or prospective industry, and if it was conveyed to Foras Tionscal that there were certain attractions in New Ross or Wexford or Drogheda that appealed to the industry and that could not be provided in a town in the undeveloped areas, Foras Tionscal would deal with that proposition on its merits in relation to New Ross, Wexford or Drogheda and in relation to no other place.

As far as location in the undeveloped areas is concerned, Foras Tionscal, far from trying to direct or influence people, are very careful to avoid doing so. If they did, for instance, direct people to Buncrana instead of Ballybunion and if any difficulty arose in regard to the location, Foras Tionscal would have to bear responsibility in respect of that wrong location. They approach all that in the sense that it is the man or the company putting up the money, or making the major investment, that is best entitled to say where the industry shall be.

The other criticism was that I should have more control over the amount of the grants and the location of the industry. In the first place, while I am the person who must face responsibility in this House for the actions of Foras Tionscal, the House and the country generally have full confidence in the chairman and members of the board of Foras Tionscal, even though they are not directly responsible to the House. In the second place if the Minister were the person who decides first whether a grant should be given, the amount of the grant and the location, would anybody in his sane senses believe that he would not be influenced in some way by political motives? I say to people aggrieved because they have not got a grant or aggrieved at the amount of the grant they have got, that I cannot interfere and I do not think I ought to. We appointed the board of Foras Tionscal in the terms of the legislation we passed and we all have confidence in them and I do not think we should ask any Minister, no matter what Government he serves, to constitute himself a court of appeal against a body such as that. If he did so, Deputies who are familiar with the facts of life know there would be a regular procession of deputations from this town and that, fighting for the location of industries or criticising the amount of grants given. I do not think that would be practical politics and I am sure the vast majority of Deputies agree with the system now operating.

Before leaving that general aspect, there was the suggestion that we should exercise more control. Deputies should realise that we have not a queue of foreign industrialists waiting to come in here, that we are not the only country which gives State assistance for the setting up of industries. Even in Common Market countries at present, considerable inducements are given. We cannot tell these people what type of industry they should establish here, where to go or what type of labour to employ. By and large, we must leave all these matters to themselves subject to setting out for them as plainly as we can what our industrial set-up is, the type of projects we should like to see established and the labour relations that have been part of our industrial fabric through the years.

There was a suggestion that we might not be able to continue this operation when we enter the Common Market. It was referred to by Deputy McGilligan and Deputy Corish and also by Deputy McQuillan in, perhaps, stronger and less responsible terms. The relevant article is Article 92 which does, as was suggested, discourage any forms of aid granted by member States "which distort or threaten to distort competition by favouring certain enterprises or certain productions" but sub-paragraph (3) of the same Article says:

The following may be deemed to be compatible with the Common Market:

(a) aids intended to promote the economic development of regions where the standard of living is abnormally low or where there exists serious under-employment:

(b) aids intended to promote the execution of important projects of common European interest or to remedy a serious disturbance of the economy of a Member State;

(c) aids intended to facilitate the development of certain activities or of certain economic regions ...

It goes on like that. Already, I think every one of the member countries— to my knowledge, certainly, Germany, France, Italy, Belgium and Luxembourg—have in existence certain forms of State aid for industry, certain forms of inducement or reliefs and some of these were negotiated long after these countries became members of the Common Market. These matters are negotiated with the commission of EEC which decides what forms of State aid may be construed, within the meaning of Article 92, as constituting a distortion, or what forms of State aid may be permissible under sub-paragraph (3). Some existing members operate various systems of State aid, so that if we find ourselves members of EEC we shall have power to negotiate with the commission on what forms of State aid we can continue. In the meantime, it is our intention to continue the present policy to the full without any deviation and rather with greater intensity, if we can.

Mr. Corish

May we take it, therefore, that in the Minister's opinion this form of aid would be all right under the terms of the Rome Treaty but that it might be challenged and that the Minister's opinion is that even if it were challenged, it would be allowed?

Mr. J. Lynch

We can argue that it ought to be allowed to continue.

Mr. Corish

The Minister's opinion is that it would be all right?

Mr. J. Lynch

Yes, but it might be restricted as to certain parts of the country.

Mr. Corish

I am not trying to catch the Minister out because I know that, in the heel of the hunt, the commission will decide if anybody challenges it, but the Minister is confident it can be continued in the form in which we have it, or in some restricted form?

Mr. J. Lynch

I would not say "restricted". We could use the word "modified". That is my opinion.

I think I have dealt with most of the points raised. I shall not chase some of the deliberately mischievous hares which were raised. I should like to assure Deputy McGilligan that there is nothing sinister in this proposal— he seemed to suggest that there was. It is a straightforward proposal to implement further the statutes and enactments of this House, and I am very glad I am in a position to come to the House and ask for another £250,000 to increase the amount of money we made available for industrial development in the undeveloped areas this year. This is a form of Supplementary Estimate I should be very pleased to introduce year after year if we found we were under-estimating our industrial development programme.

Mr. Corish

I did not hear the Minister's speech. Did he chase one of my hares? Has he given his opinion as to the desirability or feasibility of appointing a director?

Mr. J. Lynch

I dealt with that fairly extensively.

Mr. Corish

I am sorry; I can read it in the Official Report.

Vote put and agreed to.