Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 3 Apr 1962

Vol. 194 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 46—Posts and Telegraphs.

Mr. Dolan

Nuair cuireadh an Meastacháin seo ar athló, bhí mé ag cainnt faoi Telefís Éireann. In that respect, I wish to congratulate the Minister for having introduced regulations which, I think, will be very effective in having any new interference with the reception of Telefís Éireann programmes eliminated, if at all possible.

Some reference was made to areas where it was not possible to obtain a clear picture from Telefís Éireann. I was wondering if the Minister had examined the possibility of having a booster station erected on Cuilcagh Mountain which is in my constituency and is more or less in the central position in the north-west. Such a station might serve the north-western area comprising Sligo and Monaghan. So far as Cavan is concerned, we are fairly satisfied that we have excellent reception there.

On the last occasion, I referred to Telefís Éireann programmes. While anything that might be said here with regard to programmes may not be matters directly for the Minister, I am sure he will have our recommendations conveyed to the Authority.

The Authority would be well advised to televise programmes featuring the ordinary lives of the people and the sporting activities in which the ordinary people take part. In many districts there are excellent facilities for hunting. There are the mummers who go around at Christmas time. There are weddings, feiseanna, and fleadha ceoil. All these reflect life in rural Ireland. Very often too much emphasis is laid on sporting events which cater for a small minority, such as golf and tennis. In the agricultural sphere a great deal could be done to help people to acquire more intimate knowledge as to the production and marketing of commodities at all stages until they arrive on the table or are exported. There are many excellent creameries and factories producing excellent goods but, unfortunately, quite a large number of people are unaware of the techniques involved and the skill with which the Irish worker can produce these commodities which are able to compete for foreign markets. Telefís Éireann could be used as a boost to our morale by showing the ability of the Irish people to manufacture and produce well designed and well finished articles.

More attention could be paid to local drama festivals. The National Museum is a fund of information to which Telefís Éireann could direct its attention. The Authority could use the material accumulated there in order to bring into the ordinary homes of Ireland a knowledge of the history of our country as contained in relics that have survived in some cases for thousands of years.

So far as Radio Éireann is concerned, there may be a few areas in which reception is not as good as would be desired. It would be wrong at this stage to cater exclusively for television and to neglect the pockets of the country to which the E.S.B. has not found its way and where people enjoy good radio programmes. Where there are complaints of bad reception an effort should be made to improve the position.

In regard to radio programmes in the Irish language, Nuacht an Lae and so on, the time has arrived when Radio Éireann announcers should have a standard type of Irish rather than have three or four announcers vying with one another to get their brand of Irish over to the listeners. In every progressive country a standard language is used in broadcasting. I am quite sure most of our people could understand standard Irish despite the fact that the announcer may not use an Ulster, Munster or Connaught dialect. We have standardised spelling and there is no reason why we should not have a standard in regard to announcing, especially in view of the fact that there are so many people who do not know Irish well. It is no help to have on successive nights announcers with different dialects and different pronunciations. Attention should be paid to that matter, which may be one for Radio Éireann themselves.

When speaking of Radio Éireann I wish to issue a little word of thanks to them, in particular for the manner in which they handled the programmes from the Congo. Radio Éireann staff went to the Congo and were good enough to see to it that the relatives and friends at home of our soldiers in the Congo got a close-up picture of what was happening there. This was a very important step for which Radio Éireann deserve the thanks of the nation. As we now know, many agencies and countries tried to distort the facts and the news and attempted to blackmail the Irish soldier abroad. It was a good thing that there were Radio Éireann reporters on the spot to bring to us a close-up picture of actual events.

The Post Office is probably the only branch of a Government Department that extends into every parish. Post offices are show pieces of the nation. The Minister should do everything possible to ensure that they will be properly painted and that the name of the post office will be displayed in Irish and, if he so wishes, in smaller letters in English. Even if it were necessary to provide extra money to maintain post offices in a good state of preservation it would be money well spent because practically everybody who comes to this country from abroad visits a post office and very often judges the status of the country on its efficiency and brings home a vivid picture of the country.

The fact that post offices have been handling so much money in recent years, notably in respect of prize bonds and savings certificates, is a wonderful tribute to the integrity of the staff in them. In many areas the staff do not get the respect often shown to bank officials. They deserve a word of praise for the manner in which they have handled this very important business of prize bonds and savings certificates. Excellent work is being done in connection with the Post Office Savings Bank. It should be brought to the notice of the people that the Post Office Savings Bank or a thrift account is a very convenient form of investment, which could be usefully employed to help the nation, that it is quite a simple matter to withdraw the money when required, and that the interest rate is much better than that paid by the commercial banks. The people should be encouraged to avail of the banking facilities provided for them every day of the week in the post offices in their own parishes.

The Minister has a great problem on his hands in view of the fact that, somewhat suddenly, there has come about a rather phenomenal outcry for extra telephones. That has arisen particularly because the farming community are very anxious to have telephones if not in their dwellings then at least in kiosks adjacent to rural post offices. They require a night service and the same facilities, so to speak, as are available in many of the built-up areas. If at all possible, the Minister should concentrate on and lean more towards the rural areas in this respect.

Very often, people have to travel long distances to get to a local post office and then sometimes they find there is not a night service. On occasions, the sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses have been very obliging in facilitating the local people. However, some little extra effort should be made and the facility should be there more as a right than as an obligement. The people would appreciate it.

There is a demand in my constituency for a few extra letter boxes. These are only the smaller points but they need to be mentioned. Every new issues of stamps is very interesting. It is an opportunity to the nation to advertise itself not alone here but abroad. Stamp collectors from all over the world come here to pick up our new issues. Every letter which leaves this country with the Irish language imprinted upon it is an ambassador for us in one way or another. The design on our stamps is important. We have an almost inexhaustible fund of historic persons, historic events and historical places on which to draw when centenaries, and so on, arise and there are many other aspects of Irish life that could be referred to in that respect.

All of us are very familiar with the excellent work done by the post office staff during the Christmas rush. We must be proud of the fact that hundreds of thousands of letters, packages and parcels are handled in this country during that week or fortnight and that deliveries are so prompt and so exact, despite the fact that there may be inadequate addresses, and so on, on some of the material.

There is hardly a Deputy who has not had experience of the trojan work the post offices do so far as elections are concerned, both local government and Dáil elections. The amount of work piled on to the post offices at times like that is tremendous. I can safely say, in respect of my constituency, and I think it is practically the same all over, that the efficiency with which that work is handled is a credit to the staffs of the post offices, to the postmasters, to the postmistresses, to the postmen, to the sorters and to all those responsible: each and every one of these pieces of literature was delivered all over the constituency.

The Minister made reference to some new ideas which his Department was bringing to bear not only on the post offices here but on post offices all over the world. It is gratifying that a small country can put forward ideas and have them accepted. In the matter of providing overhead and underground cables, I am sure that all that work is directed towards improving our telephone service. I wish to mention a point affecting my constituency, namely, cross-Border telephone communications.

It has been brought to my notice on many occasions that cattle lorries, now travelling very often from the West and South for long distances, have to wait for hours at frontier posts before they can contact anyone on the other side and be allowed to go through and have their loads dispersed, and so on. That is something that might call for negotiations on both sides of the Border. It would speed up very much the congestion which usually arises when cattle markets are due in the North.

I was intrigued to hear somebody on the other side of the House complain about the amount of time given to Fianna Fáil Deputies and, in particular, to the Taoiseach when appearing on Telefís Éireann. I shall not go into all that. Somebody painted the picture that when the Taoiseach was appearing elaborate cameras, and so on were in use.

The Taoiseach represents 70 members in this House. One would think it would be time enough to launch criticism in that respect after we had 12 months' experience of the operation of Telefís Éireann. I have not kept a check of these appearances, and so on, but I think that, as head of the Government, the Taoiseach is entitled to appear on these programmes. I am quite sure that, in any pronouncements he makes, he is always taken as speaking more or less as Taoiseach. If the reporters on Telefís Éireann or on Radio Éireann are giving him extra attention, that is a matter for themselves. After all, he is the Taoiseach of this country.

If another person aspires to that dignified position—I do not think it would ever come to pass for some of them—and it should come about then, naturally, as Taoiseach of this country, nobody will have any complaint if he gets extra publicity. Those who viewed the opening of Telefís Éireann cannot accuse the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs of seeking publicity on that important occasion in the history of our country: he was the most modest man who ever appeared on it. I often wonder what some of these severe critics of appearances by the Taoiseach would do if they were in the position in which our Minister for Posts and Telegraphs found himself on that occasion. I fear there would be much to say so far as giving extra time to their appearances on Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann is concerned.

I congratulate the Minister on the work of his Department. So far as I know, he is in control—indirectly, in some cases—of one of our most important services. Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann are the showpieces of the nation. Between them, they can wield much power for good or evil. It is important to ensure that both Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann will maintain the high standards set for them already and will at all times remember that they must present the life of our nation in a favourable manner.

I congratulate the Minister on his efforts. I urge him to bear in mind the points I have raised. I notice that all over the country footpaths are being torn up and underground cables laid and, in addition, that overhead cables are being erected. It is a sign that he and his Department are making every possible effort to cope with the very heavy and unexpected burden placed upon them recently. Everything possible is done by the Department and the Minister. We shall give him every possible assistance to enable him to carry out his duties as efficiently and as effectively as in the past.

Dr. Browne

I should like to join with other Deputies in congratulating the Minister on the extremely efficient way in which he has continued to operate the Department during his time in office. It is a Department which shows better than any other how wonderfully efficient a state organisation can be in carrying out extremely complicated forms of service in any society but I think that these services can be well or badly operated depending to a considerable extent on the Minister. I think the Minister can be assured by all of us that he has been very well worthy of the office.

I agree with Deputy Dillon's suggestion that this really amounts to a miniature Budget. The only thing that fascinates me—and I think other people—is that, because there has been a very big change in fiscal policy over a number of years, as manifested by the Fianna Fáil Party, now in its old age—I do not mean that in any jibing sense—it has tended to shift the burden of direct taxation, which I think is the fairest way to get money for national expenditure, to indirect taxation and this Estimate represents one aspect of the shift over to the general public from the minority of rather wealthy people who can be asked to pay for the general services in taxation.

The problem that seems to me to arise for the Minister for Finance, since we have seen this shift to indirect taxation manifesting itself in increases in the prices of tobacco, drink, bread, bus fares and so on, is whether the whole development has got rather out of hand leaving the Minister for Finance in the position that when he comes to prepare the Budget, he will find there is nobody left to tax. That is a problem to which we shall know the answer next week.

I am more concerned with the position regarding Telefís Éireann which I understand has been discussed. I want to ask the Minister to consider a point of view about it. I appreciate the Minister's position when he came to establish this service. It was probably the wisest course for him to establish an independent and autonomous body and give it pretty full powers. As a Minister I did the same thing in relation to many aspects of health administration. When one is anxious to get things done rapidly, as the Minister was and as I was, it is probably the most effective way. I think the Minister knows that. Certainly, his efforts to establish the Telefís Éireann service have been completely successful and we must acknowledge the success of the Authority in establishing that service, a good service in many ways.

It is very early to start criticising—I agree completely with Deputy Dolan —a complicated service of this kind where most of the paths one must follow are unexplored. Even though there is some experience of this medium available, I think it is better that we should follow the unexplored path so that the service we eventually evolve would be peculiar to ourselves, to our background, tradition and attitude to life. It is much preferable that the service should develop in that way rather than take ready-made ideas from another source. To that extent I want to make clear that I appreciate it is early yet to criticise but there is this aspect of it.

The Minister is creating certain precedents which are likely to be very important in the light of our political development and once precedents are established among organised political Parties it is very hard to break them. You can establish them all right but going away from them is very difficult and complicated. On the whole question of the general policy of Telefís Éireann the Minister is establishing principles or precedents which eventually will become sacrosanct. They will be recognised as or believed to be sacrosanct precedents which nobody will dare to alter. In the light of that I wonder if he is wise in the precedent he appears to be trying to establish— for the best reasons in the world, I think—that he has absolutely no functions, no say not only in the day to day running of the service—which is the responsibility of management—but for the general, broadest principles of control of Telefís Éireann. I wonder whether the Minister cannot accept that he has some overriding, general policy decisions to make.

Even though it is a very young art form, one of the truisms about television is that it is probably the most frighteningly powerful educational of propaganda media to come into the hands of man since the establishment of the printing press. Each one of us is frightened of it, whether Socialist, Liberal, Conservative, Labour, Catholic, Communist or Facist, and rightly so. In the hands of our enemies it is propaganda; in the hands of our friends it is educational. We all know it can be used or misused to form the lives of men, their habits and consumer habits; to educate them, to pervert them, to give them attitudes of mind about religion, politics and business morality. I do not think there is any aspect of the daily life of the human being that cannot be interfered with or formed by television.

In a society such as ours where, regrettably, the vast majority of our people lack post-primary education, television, in effect, becomes the sole means of such education so that the Minister really finds himself in the role of a sort of supernumerary Minister for Education.

I can well see that that is a very frightening prospect for any individual, for any Minister who already has great responsibility. We must remember that this Department was the responsibility of an individual for many years—the Department of Posts and Telegraphs itself. Now, the proposition that there should be added to this, the over-riding control on general principles and policy decisions of this tremendously powerful medium is a frightening one. I can well see that the Minister's general attitude would be to repudiate and reject the suggestion.

I am not sure that the Minister can conscientiously reject that suggestion because it seems to me two different issues are involved should he accept and should he decide to do so. One is that this very powerful mind-moulding medium should be handed over to an autonomous group with a particular attitude to life, a particular outlook and particular standards of behaviour which are effectively different from the standards and values which we in An Dáil, that is, we politicians, tend to hold about general ethical behaviour amongst ourselves and to one another.

I probably hold a minority view, not in this House but outside, that the standard of ethical behaviour for broad morality amongst politicians is very much higher in political life in Ireland than are these same standards in the ordinary business life of our community. I would prefer that if we are, as I hope we are, to develop this powerful medium for education—let us call it that; entertainment and education and propaganda, if you like —in our society, it would be wiser and safer that we here should try to retain some kind of over-riding control of the broadest general principles under which the machinery of television is operated.

I suspect that probably the wisest thing would be to remove the whole idea of television from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs—I do not mean to be derogatory in any way to the Minister—and to hand it over to a Minister for Fine Arts and to include television, theatre, music and so on, and in that way to give somebody control of the general direction——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Might I point out that this is not a matter that relevantly arises on the Estimate? The responsibility of the Minister has been decided by a decision of this House and it would require legislation to change the position.

Dr. Browne

Well, Sir, I am really dealing with it to the extent that the Minister does accept questions in this House concerning Telefís Éireann and to that extent he has an admittedly tenuous responsibility for the whole organisation of television. Further, I suggest that we are at a very formative stage of the service and that it is only on this Estimate that we have an opportunity of discussing the matter. I do not intend to deal with it at any great length beyond suggesting that it seems to me that where the control of such a powerful medium is at issue, we in An Dáil should have some right of interrogation, some right to question the activities of the television service. I do not think anybody would disagree with my case that when it comes to the general standards of behaviour in political life, in our attitude to one another, however much we may differ in our political views, there is little, if any, personal vindictiveness. This is completely different from the attitude to be found in, say, the industrial life, or the commercial life, of the country.

Similarly in our attitude to the making of appointments broadly covered by the Civil Service Commission and the Local Appointments Commission, both of which bodies are above suspicion—the standards observed by us in our control of such things as promotion and appointments to positions of one kind or another should be observed in an organisation such as this. Equally, the general attitude in the commercial world is to destroy or be destroyed, kill or be killed. In politics, quite a different attitude prevails. It is rather more the attitude of professionals in any walk of life—live and let live.

Therefore, I believe that it would be much wiser if the Minister took responsibility for a very much wider level of broad, general policy, making decisions in regard to the general organisation and control of Telefís Éireann. I was surprised and depressed by the moderation of Deputy Dillon in his criticism of the opening weeks of Telefís Éireann and of Deputy Norton on behalf of the Labour Party. It surprised everybody that there appeared to be a very considerable emphasis placed on the position of the Taoiseach and to a lesser extent, of the Minister, to the exclusion of the Leader of the main Opposition Party and the Labour Party and this did cause avoidable bitterness and created certain prejudices in the minds of, I suppose, at least half the viewers. It seems to me to be very ill-judged if you put it from that point of view.

Deputy Dolan is right in that there are 70 Fianna Fáil Deputies here but there are 70 Deputies who are not in the Government and it seemed to be ill-judged to put it at its kindest, and a fairly serious political blunder, to put it at its worst, so blatantly to parade the Government, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs in the opening few weeks and in the telecast to which Deputy Dillon referred specifically. I am inclined to agree that the two most embarrassed people in the country about that position were, on the one hand, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and on the other, the Taoiseach. I doubt very much if either of them would favour that position of preponderance for themselves on Telefís Éireann.

Again, putting it at its highest, the general attitude of those of us who are in public life is reasonably fair-minded: that each of us should have our say and that we are not afraid—whether it is through arrogance or self-assurance —to put our point of view in front of any audience, and that we are not afraid to have someone else say the direct opposite.

Many people outside politics do not seem to understand this democratic approach. I suspect there are people in Telefís Éireann who have this attitude, and who are frightened to have a conflict of debate, not realising that debate can harm no one, that right, we must all assume, will drive out wrong and truth will prevail. It is an attitude which has been evident on Telefís Éireann, I imagine without any connivance by the Minister or the Taoiseach. Putting it at its highest, as I say, I think their attitude would be: "We are not afraid of the opponent's point of view." Putting it at its lowest, I think they know very well how ephemeral is political power, that in any democratic society, power must pass from their hands into the hands of the other side, and that any precedent they establish is likely to be used against them or in their favour when the time comes that they are at the mercy of the political sycophants and toadies who play up to them during their term of office. We all know and have had experience of such people, and the Minister and the Taoiseach have been long enough in politics to know of them and not be impressed by these fair-weather friends, these sycophants.

I agree with Deputy Dolan that in a situation where there are 70 Deputies in one Party, that Party must take precedence, not for any personal qualities they have but merely because they represent the majority point of view of our people, and in consequence they must get a proportionate majority. We in this House accept proportional representation, and because of proportional representation, there must be a Fianna Fáil predominance in matters generally concerning Telefís Éireann, but the general principle should be accepted that good viewing and good debate can only arise out of the presentation of conflicting points of view. We all accept that here in the House.

I would also ask the Minister to bear in mind the point of view of a minority, such as the minority point of view which I hold. It can quite easily be brushed aside. It cannot bite back, and there is very little it can do to defend itself. Fascists and Communists both take the easy line and prevent the minority from having any say in the great powerful propaganda or educational mediums such as the newspapers, radio or television. A great test of a democratic society is to what extent the majority are prepared to let the minority have a say—not a preponderance but an occasional say— and let it stand or fall by whatever decision the people take about its point of view.

I believe the B.B.C. have set us a good headline. Their general attitude to every subject is to get the points of view of both sides and let them go at it hammer and tongs. I wonder is there a sort of attitude of mind in Telefís Éireann which tends to look down on politicians? We all know there is a lot of denigration of politicians by people we naturally believe are in no position to throw stones. There is a suggestion: "We do not want politics; we want to keep politics out of it." We are the "pros", the professionals, on matters of great domestic, international or foreign affairs because by virtue of our political profession, we have to make a study of the various points which arise at home and abroad. While not getting an undue influence over, or an undue hold on, this large propaganda medium, I think we have a right to a fair share of it. It is understandable that if you hand over final decisions in regard to these matters, those who make the decisions will tend to find against and to exclude those for whom many of them have an inexplicable contempt.

I found that the programmes generally are as good as I had hoped. As a nation, we have been supplying the writers, the artists, the poets, the directors, the creative thinkers of the British and American stage for as long as recorded history. For some reason or other, as a Celtic race, we have this creative talent within us. It is wonderful that there is now an outlet for those of our artists who up to now would have had to emigrate— musicians, actors, writers, producers and all those people who have shown in the very short time they have had at their disposal that they are not only as good as but better than anyone else. I imagine that certain of the Telefís Éireann programmes are now seen in most Irish homes.

On the other hand, while the programmes are as good as I had hoped they would be the advertising is as bad as I feared it would be. The idea that by these fraudulent and accountancy book-keeping devices, by having advertisements on your television, you can save the general taxpayer is of course complete rubbish. It is bad enough to put out something that is not true but to have to have one's programme interrupted by the fatuous and silly rubbish that is put out by the advertising corporations is the greatest trial I have found in looking at Telefís Éireann. I resent more than anything else the insolent and insultting supposition on the part of the advertisers that they are talking to a moronic society whose general standards of intelligence are on the level of the intelligence quotient of children of six or seven years of age.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would the Minister have any responsibility for the advertisers?

Dr. Browne

I am asking that he should take it, if he has not got it. I see the point of view of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle but I feel it is a great shame that the good programmes we have on Telefís Éireann should be mauled so much by the dreadful exhibitions put on by the advertisers. It is nonsense to say that the advertisers help to pay for the service. The consumer pays for the service in direct taxation. He pays for it in his television licence and he pays for the advertisement in the increased cost of the product. It is a device to shift the burden from the wealthier to the less wealthy section of the community. May I again point out the serious responsibility on the people who are producing these programmes and the Minister's responsibility for what they do?

What is the Minister's attitude to the continued use of Telefís Éireann for propaganda for cigarette smoking, in view of the recent findings that it is a poisonous practice and that it causes great damage to the health of people of all ages? I wish it were possible for me to ask a question in regard to the content of the programme which dealt with the report published by the College of Physicians. I think the handling of that report by those concerned, and I saw two such programmes, with the exception of one individual, a lady, was superficial and frivolous and showed that they had little or no understanding of the tremendous responsibility they had. Our people were looking for guidance about that very important report and the general approach to it was completely superficial and frivolous. In each case, the panel members involved ended up by taking cigarettes out of their pockets.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Surely the Minister has no responsibility in this case? I doubt if the matter of cigarette smoking can be discussed on this Estimate, as I feel it is a matter for the Minister for Health. It would widen the discussion unduly. The question does not arise on this Estimate.

Dr. Browne

I think the Minister has a moral responsibility. It is easy to wash your hands of it but I think it is a dangerous thing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not a case of washing hands. It does not arise on this Estimate.

Dr. Browne

We are going to vote a lot of money on this Estimate.

Mr. Corish

It is not in order to talk about a programme on Telefís Éireann, while not holding the Minister responsible for it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has no responsibility in the matter of cigarette smoking.

Dr. Browne

I am not holding him responsible. I am putting this so that he may have an illustration of what is happening. He says he has no responsibility, but as far as the people are concerned, and as far as we here are concerned, he got the blame— wrongly, he will say—for the apparent partisanship of the people in control of that side of the broadcast in the early days of the service. It should be possible for him to tell these people that he does not want this sectarian attitude fathered on him, when he is not responsible for it.

I find most of the home-produced programmes of Telefís Éireann, most of the ones with céilí music, Home with O'Hagan, the School Around the Corner and others of that sort, excellent entertainment. I cannot say the same for the imported and canned programmes, particularly the ones which seem to specialise in violence of any kind. It is a problem which one must be in a position to comment on, whether a national television service should allow the use and acceptance of violence against the human being as a form of entertainment.

I have always found it difficult to understand why those of us who hold the views we do tolerate programmes of violence to the body, the human body, by anything from boxing to warfare. I do not understand why the glorification of violence should be tolerated in a service such as we have. On general principles, I think it is wrong. Most of our religious leaders, at the beginning said they hoped the service would be used in order to create a mirror of life as we would like it to be. This portrayal of violence is a negation of that aspiration and it is a bad thing from the point of view of young people. Most of the national television services are very worried. The American television services have had a number of full-scale inquiries into the dominating motive in their television services and its dedication to violence. Similarly, very recently, the British have had some inquiries made. I understand also that I.T.V. is setting up such an inquiry into the influence of violence on young people.

It is putting one's head in the sand to suggest that the television service is not a very powerful influence. I cannot believe that anybody could hold that view when he sees the tremendous struggle which goes on in every society for the control of television. One must accept that it is because of its formative influence. In a closed society, we know it can determine the end product; you can make a person anything you want to, a creature of his environment. In a closed society, you can therefore determine the type of individual you get.

In a society such as ours which we hope will continue to be subject to different influences, it is very important that bad influences of this kind, the portrayal of violence, the glorification or acceptance of violence, should be eliminated. It is undesirable in so far as it does create in the minds of young people the belief that violence is permissible and acceptable, that violence is the correct solution for a physical dilemma, that when you do not like somebody or when you do not agree with somebody, it is permissible or acceptable—"Adults do it; why cannot we?"

I would condemn all portrayals of violence and brutality, for instance, as in westerns. I do not understand the bland acceptance by people of the killing of men as being a form of entertainment. Children are very imitative. Nearly 60 per cent, of the children in most towns and villages in Ireland do not wear their own clothes. They are all dressed up in cowboy outfits, wear cowboy hats and carry guns. That is the lighter side of this imitative tendency in children but there is the other, grimmer side where they decide to solve their problems by beating one another up, the tendency towards what is called teddyboyism, where young people attack adults, and so on. There is the even grimmer aspect of which we have seen examples in Ireland where young people have been carrying out experiments in hanging and have, in fact, hanged themselves.

The Minister should take time off to look a little more closely at the programmes being presented by Telefís Éireann to see if he cannot ask them to get rid of the violence and try to extend the home-produced type of programme. We have a tremendous reservoir of our own material, as Deputy Dolan mentioned in relation to places down the country, our traditions, our whole history, our archaeology, folklore, the way of life of our people. We could introduce one set of our society to the other by sending television cameras out among the people.

One of the finest programmes I have seen on any television service was a Telefís Éireann presentation in which for about half-an-hour or three-quarters of an hour Dr. Simms, who is apparently an authority, gave us a lecture on the Book of Kells. It was a most beautiful and enthralling piece of television. I do not see why we cannot have very much more of that. Perhaps I am being unfair. It is very early yet, as I said before, but I hope the tendency will be towards the creation and exhibition of that type of programme in the future rather than the other horrid importations on which they seem to rely when they are hard up for home material.

Deputy Dolan mentioned the language. One of the sad things—it is, I suppose, one of the hard facts of life —to many language enthusiasts is to see how rarely the commercials are in Irish. Those are the hard-headed business men, many of whom surely must be our own native industrialists and some of whom I know myself would be very devoted to what used to be called the Irish-Ireland ideal. Most of the commercials I have seen are in Béarla. I suppose that is business, but it must be very significant for anyone who has any illusions about the position of the language in Ireland. There is no doubt that if Irish paid dividends, they would use it.

I have always believed that the language should be learned, being the beautiful thing it is. I do not accept Deputy Dolan's plea—I think it is a dangerous one, although I can see the wisdom of it in some ways—that there should be a non-regional television speaker on the television. That may be permissible in a country like Britain or France where the language is very rugged, very solid and well established, but where our language is concerned, because it is so weak and such a delicate thing, I would not favour the attempt to develop a sort of lingua franca or a language which represented the various dialects. Would it not be possible for each region to have its own news broadcast in the regional dialect? It is all very well to say it would be nice to get a non-committal dialect which did not belong to any of the regions but this is not much use to somebody in the Connemara or Donegal Gaeltacht who would be as much unable to understand that as I would be unable to understand Donegal Irish as opposed to Connemara Irish. I wonder whether it would be possible for the Minister to see that the regional dialects are preserved? They are too delicate to be mixed into one and for a conglomerate of the three to be created. I am concerned more about Connemara than anywhere else. I speak for Connemara, or I appeal on behalf of Connemara.

Mr. Coogan

Ná bac leis sin.

Dr. Browne

The Deputy will have his chance. As regards those of us who try to speak Irish and try to learn the language, our difficulty, once we leave Connemara and come back to this side of the country, is that we very rarely hear the language spoken at all and we never hear it spoken as we know it, that is, in the true dialect of the West of Ireland, of Connemara. The last time we heard it here was when the late Josie Mongan was with us. He used to speak it here. Would it be possible to have exclusive programmes in the different dialects for the assistance of those who would like to keep contact with the different dialects? There was a programme on Radio Éireann which was a great help to many of us. We were given an opportunity of listening to a group of people in a house in Connemara talking, discussing and debating. That was a considerable help to those of us who can have only an occasional direct contact with the dialect spoken there. Such programmes would be of inestimable assistance to young people who are trying to learn the real language and not just the Civil Service Irish. I have very little regard for the latter. I suppose it was necessary to create it but I doubt if it will ever be spoken.

One of the best programmes I have seen was a BBC programme of a céilí in Spiddal. There was no commentary —the entire programme was in Irish. It was a grand picture of that heritage about which so many talk but which is all too easily forgotten. We are rather remote here from what may be regarded now as the cradle of our language. Television can be used to bring that heritage, which is slipping away faster and faster because of modern development, more closely home to us. I suggest programmes from Donegal, Connemara, West Cork and Kerry where the language still lives. I suggest that no effort should be made to talk down to the people in these areas. Hand the service over to them. They are very intelligent and very businesslike. They are great talkers and very charming. In that way, we could keep contact with our language and our traditions.

I hope the Minister appreciates the powerful medium television is. I hope he will stop running away from television. It is so powerful, I suppose the sensible thing is for him to run away from it, to hand it over to someone else, and then proclaim it is not his business. I do not believe that is the best thing to do from the point of view of the country. His position is rather like that of the dog with the tin can tied to his tail; the faster he runs, the more noise he makes. The Minister should take a stand. This is a powerful weapon which can be used to create a particularly desirable kind of society. It is so wonderful and so powerful that it is not the kind of weapon that should be given to a small oligarchy. It is something which belongs to the people and the Minister is, after all, the real representative of the people.

Mr. Coogan

I have in the past raised the question of privacy for those transacting business in local post offices. It is embarrassing for someone at the head of the queue to have to discuss his business openly in the presence of the rest of the queue. Surely the Office of Public Works could erect plywood or hardboard partitioning to give people who wish to keep their business private an opportunity of transacting that business in private.

A good deal of irritation is caused by the failure of stamp machines to deliver the goods. This has been going on for quite some years and it is about time the Department took some steps to remedy the situation. I understand it can be caused by the dampening of the gum in very wet weather. The machine refuses to work. Surely the Department could evolve some type of franking machine. That would get rid of the present trouble. Now that the postage is being increased to 4d., the irritation will be all the greater, and the Minister may well fall in for an odd rap. If he can do anything to ease the situation in relation to the unsatisfactory working of these stamping machines, I shall be very grateful to him.

We get very little reception of Telefís Éireann in my area. From what I have seen of it, a good many of the artists appear to be under a great strain. It looks as if they lack stage personality, if I may put it that way. I think they need a rehearsal beforehand. Even though they may be artists of high quality there is that element of strain. Sometimes it is hard enough to have to listen to them, without having to look at them. They seem to be too keyed up. I trust this will disappear with time and experience.

Those living on the east coast and in the north have the advantage that they can switch over to UTV or some of the cross-Channel programmes. I am not suggesting that everything from cross-Channel is of the best, but there are times when the programmes are quite valuable. There are times, too, when there is cause for embarrassment, particularly if children are watching the programme. In the interests of public decency, some programmes should be jammed. Certain things are censored. Why should these programmes not be prohibited entry?

Recently there was very severe flooding in Galway city, Cork and other places. There is need for a flood warning system. Tragedies occurred during the last floods. The Minister should take the matter up with the meteorological people and with Telefís and Radio Éireann.

The erection of overhead telephone poles should be discouraged in future. I know there is a tendency to lay underground cables now. In future, nothing but underground cables should be laid. Again, where poles are in a suitable position, they should be used, in co-operation with other responsible authorities, for signposting purposes. I believe there is some old rule from the end of the last century which says these poles may not be used for any other purpose than to carry telephone wires. It is about time we faced realities and scrapped these archaic rules. That would save public money. At the moment we have a forest of poles in every city.

Galway is recognised as the major tourist centre in the country. More telephones are needed there. I understand another rule operates here. Surely there could be some elasticity. A phone may mean all the difference between life and death. It is bad policy to put everything on a purely mercenary basis.

Again, with regard to Telefís Éireann, this medium could be used to teach Irish dancing. The Irish dancing in local dance halls is not up to the proper standard. One is ashamed of it before visitors.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs have any responsibility for dancing?

Mr. Coogan

I suggest he could use his good offices and ask Telefís Éireann to give a series of lessons. These dances are some of the nicest that can be seen on any dance floor. No one need suffer embarrassment before visitors from outside if Irish dancing is properly done.

If the Minister does something to ensure privacy in the transaction of business in local post offices, he may find his Department will transact much more business.

Mr. Faulkner

Most matters arising under this Estimate have now been discussed. I shall confine myself to a few points. I am very happy to be in a position to congratulate the Minister for the excellent work he has done in providing us with Telefís Éireann. My congratulations, too, must go to Telefís Éireann for the telecasts to date. Most people were anxious that we should have a television service of our own, particularly those people who were able to get broadcasts from the different British television services. There were many reasons, national and spiritual, for this. From the national point of view they recognised that the spate of propaganda to which we were being subjected by foreign television would undermine our whole national outlook and have a most undesirable effect on our young people in particular. From the spiritual point of view I do not think there is any need for me to stress that there are very different standards of morality in this country as compared with those of the country from which these programmes were coming. The chief danger here lay in the manner in which matters which we consider morally wrong were being portrayed as not only not wrong but as normal codes of behaviour. For these reasons we were anxious that we should have a television service of our own.

We looked forward with some trepidation, however, to the opening of Telefís Éireann because we recognised the very considerable difficulties which the Authority would face. We wondered how they would acquit themselves. We knew the amount of money available would be small in comparison with the amount available to the B.B.C. and infinitesimal in comparison with the amount available to I.T.V. Those of us who received telecasts from these stations knew that the standard of entertainment was relatively low and we were naturally worried as to how Telefís Éireann, with a very much smaller budget, would be able to raise the standard. Telefís Éireann's success proves the point that where there is less money available, but not too little, the Authority must be more selective, more careful about the type of programme produced and also more careful about the actual production. Here, Telefís Éireann have scored a notable success and amply compensated for the lack of funds. They were obviously determined to make the best possible use of the material available to them and, in my opinion, they have achieved this.

The second point which worried us was whether Telefís Éireann would be able to create for itself a distinctive national character. We realised that Telefís Éireann would of necessity have to make use of a considerable amount of canned material from Britain and America. We feared that if there were a disproportionate amount of this canned material, instead of getting a national service, we would simply get a reproduction of I.T.V. and the B.B.C.

I am glad to say that from my experience Telefís Éireann has got a very definite character of its own. It has a national character and I think this is largely due to the fact, stressed by the Minister, that we are providing 20 hours of home-produced material in each 44-hour week. As one who has had experience of other programmes prior to Telefís Éireann coming into operation, I can say that I have a very different feeling when watching Telefís Éireann—a feeling of belonging, a feeling of knowing the people who are taking part in the various debates, lectures and so on.

I realise we should have the same feeling in respect to the programmes coming from U.T.V., particularly in the part of the country I come from, but I am afraid that because of the slant put on some of the programmes —I am not referring to all the programmes—because of the obvious efforts to try to show that the Six Counties of Ulster are part of Britain, we cannot get that homely feeling. I am satisfied that Telefís Éireann has a very distinct character and I am very glad to be in a position to say that because I had some fears this might not be so.

Much has been written and spoken about the amount of time being allocated to the Irish language on Telefís Éireann. I think it would be safe to say that practically all of it, if not all of it, was to the effect that not enough time was being given to programmes in the Irish language. I do not remember reading any letter in which it was stated that too much time was being given to Irish and this is to the good. Personally, I feel that Telefís Éireann is adopting the right attitude at this stage in relation to Irish language programmes. It is putting on simple programmes, easily understood. Some of them, for example Seán Mac Réamonn's programme and Siopa an Bhreathnaigh, are bilingual and in many instances statements made in Irish are repeated in a very natural way in English. This is very helpful to people who have only a small grasp of the language.

Young people are particularly interested in these programmes and are paying very keen attention to them. Another matter I am pleased with on Telefís Éireann is that the news broadcasts in the Irish language are a couple of hours after the news broadcasts in English. This is something I have been advocating on this Estimate for years in connection with sound broadcasting. I know from my own experience that where the English news broadcast comes immediately after the Irish news broadcast, and in a household where all speak English but only some Irish, only the English version will be listened to because nobody is particularly anxious to listen to the same news broadcast twice over.

The other programmes I have seen in the Irish language of a different type are all of a very high standard. Here again Telefís Éireann has adopted the right attitude. To those who press for more time for Irish language programmes at the present time on Telefís Éireann I would say those of us who are anxious to propagate the language must also be practical. Here we have a powerful new instrument where the spoken word and the action can be co-ordinated so that the words can be more easily understood than through a sound broadcast. Our objective should be to try and entice as many as possible to look at these programmes. To do this, the programmes must be simple; they must be easily understood and the production must be of a very high standard.

We must remember that in my part of the country—and in a very considerable part of the country generally —we have a choice of three programmes. It must, accordingly, be admitted that at the present time if we endeavour to overload Telefís Éireann with too many difficult programmes the people will simply switch off and listen to some other programme and we will be the losers. My advice is that we should concentrate on producing as many interesting programmes as possible for the young people. If we do this, we will foster the Irish language. The young people will listen to the programmes not only because of the programmes themselves, but also because they will have something their elders will not have. They will be able to understand what is going on and it will give them a sense of pride which will help them to develop interest in the language. Through Telefís Éireann we are able to show the Irish language in use in many spheres of life. It shows the language can be used and is being used in all the different aspects of life. For the first time, it is being taken out of the school and being made much more than a school subject. I feel that is something that will do an enormous amount of good.

There was a complaint about Telefís Éireann telecasts in which very young children take part—that there is not one word of Irish in these programmes. I think that is a mistake. Perhaps, the people responsible for these programmes imagine such young children would never be able to learn enough of the language to enjoy participation in them. This is not true. I can say from my experience that it is possible for these children to enjoy themselves through the medium of the Irish language and for young viewers to do so as well. What we must remember about these programmes is that a young child's vocabulary, even in English, is very limited so that it would not be difficult to replace, at least in part, the English vocabulary with an Irish one.

There is just one other matter I should like to refer to. The Minister mentioned the fact that there is a very big waiting list for telephones. Of course every Deputy in the House is well aware of that. People are coming to appreciate the value of the telephone in their businesses and are anxious to have it installed. We can appreciate the Minister's dilemma in this matter. We know that unless progress is made in one particular aspect of this problem, the mere installation of more telephones will not solve it but might possibly give us an inefficient service. At the same time I would urge the Minister to push forward this programme of telephone installation with as much vigour as possible.

Mr. Sherwin

Like every other Deputy, I should like to have my say on this Estimate. It is the one opportunity we get during the year to go into detail. Throughout the year we are told we may not discuss this or that. First of all, I want to deal with the increase in the letter postage rate from threepence to fourpence. The people who will be hit will be T.D.s, who have to do a lot of letter writing, and business people. The man in the street does not write letters very often. I hope that those in authority will take note of the fact that the incomes of Deputies are being reduced every day in the week because of these increases. I know one Deputy who sends out ten thousand letters. Of course, he sends out Christmas cards. I take it the twopenny rate for cards is not increased?

Mr. Hilliard

No.

Mr. Sherwin

Deputies usually close their letters and some of us issue hundreds a week. Others may not send a dozen. The new rate will be very costly on some of us. Deputies should have some concession. They ought to be entitled to put a twopenny stamp on official envelopes. That could easily be done. It could be made an offence for anyone except a Deputy to use official envelopes. It is not fair to Deputies that they should have to pay fourpence every time they reply to a communication. They will be encouraged not to reply.

I do not object to the increase in the phone charge so much although it means another 30/- but it will be hard on the small subscriber who does not make a profit out of his phone. Many people in one way or another profit out of their phone but there are small subscribers who would not use the phone three or four times a week. Some distinction should be made. It is unfair that these people should have to pay £1 17s. every three months for rental. In addition, there will be another 7/6.

Deputies have various views on television. Recommendations are made that there should be more Irish, less jazz, less violence, no sex—and so on. All these things make up the world. My children love pictures featuring violence. If there is a peaceful, easygoing picture being televised they turn it off because they are not interested. For the Minister's information, cowboys are very popular with children as are court scenes such as featured in the programme Mr. District Attorney.

It is agreed that there should be a percentage of Irish music on television but Irish music is a martial, warlike music that encourages people to fight; it rouses spirit; whereas most jazz, especially crooning, is love stuff—the very opposite.

I have no complaints in regard to the television programmes; it takes all sorts to make a world; but in regard to Radio Éireann it is quite obvious that programmes will deteriorate with the advent of television because it is the commercial programmes that are the best and sponsors will not spend money on radio programmes when they can use television.

In my home, once television comes on at 5 p.m. it remains on until the close down. We would not think of putting on Radio Éireann. I think that is the position in every home. Except for the programmes from 1 p.m. to 3 p.m., which are pretty good, I imagine that Radio Éireann will become very dull. For that reason there should be a gradual reduction in the cost of the radio licence. I do not think it is fair that a person who cannot afford a television licence should get a poor programme for his 17/6.

Mr. Tully

He will not even get a licence for 17/6.

Mr. Sherwin

There are many people who cannot afford the 10/- or 12/- a week to purchase a television set, apart from the £4. It is only a family who, by each member contributing, can get a television set. There are poor people and old people—the people we are always talking about— who can never have a television set and will have to put up with the old radio. It is not fair to ask them to pay 17/6 for a licence.

When speaking about telephones I forgot to mention one point. From time to time most obscene and profane language is used on the telephone. I raised this matter on the previous occasion. Is there any way by which these people can be detected? From what I have seen in the cinema, it is possible to identify immediately the phone from which a call is made. I do not know whether that is peculiar to films. There ought to be an occasional prosecution to stop the use of obscenity on the telephone.

Whether the Minister likes it or not I shall come back to my theme that £4 is too much for certain types of people for a television licence. Television is a boon to the family and especially to the poor person who has no money to spare for beer, cinemas and so on. The old person who lives alone, whom nobody wants—a great many of the old people are not wanted by their children—has no money to go anywhere and a television set would be a great boon. Sets may become cheaper. It is certainly wholesale robbery to charge 15/- or 12/- a week for a set. Should sets become cheaper and should it be possible for the people I have mentioned to buy them there ought to be a special licence fee for them. It would not be impossible for the Minister to make an order that in the case of a person living on his own the fee should be one-half of the present rate. The Minister should do something about that because television would bring life to some of these people who are now looking at four walls.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I have just a few points to make on this Estimate. First of all, I want to deal with the telephone service. Although what I may say may be largely repetitive of what other speakers have said, the more people who say it in this House the better because it may possibly strengthen the Minister's position in relation to other members of the Cabinet who may be made realise that there is a very inefficient telephone service in this country.

As I take the Minister's statement, it seems that the telephones have outgrown the service they have to meet on the trunk lines. The trunk lines are particularly bad and the service on them is slow. It is true to say that it is slower in this country than in any other country in which I have ever used a phone. It is entirely wrong that if you are trying to get a town in rural Ireland, say 20 miles away, sometimes you have to wait three-quarters of an hour. There is something very seriously wrong. I should like also to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that where I live, on the East coast, the service with Dublin is particularly bad. Only a few months ago, I tried to phone my home from Bray, a distance of only 34 miles, and was told that I would have to wait three-quarters of an hour to get on. If one picks up the phone to put in a cross-Channel call, one will probably get it in five to fifteen minutes. There must be something seriously wrong. Everybody is talking about the Common Market and efficiency. How are we to compete with other people in business if we have to wait that length of time to get our telephone calls through? Nowadays, the majority of business is done on the telephone and this is a very important matter.

I may be hitting the Minister on this point and possibly he is not directly responsible for it, but, as the Minister concerned, he must be responsible to the House for the state of affairs that prevails. In his opening statement, he gave us to understand he cannot meet the demand for telephones and that there is the outrageous figure of 10,000 people waiting for telephone connection. That goes to show that there is something wrong with the whole system. It goes to show that it is under-capitalised, that there are not sufficient experts to deal with trunk lines, and so on. Obviously, there is no foresight in the matter of getting materials. The Minister should seriously approach the Government and ask them to give him considerably more money for a service which is paying a return—probably one of the few services in his Department which are paying a return.

If any private business had 10,000 people waiting for service, it would be considered bad business. I suggest the Minister should get down to it as soon as he can and try to meet the legitimate demands of our people. There are any number of people at the moment whose business is at a discount, who are unable to compete in the modern world, in agriculture or business, and there are areas where people have not any telephone within miles to call a veterinary surgeon, a doctor or a priest, if they want one. I would stress that these matters require urgent attention.

With regard to turning over from the ordinary telephone system to the automatic system, I should like to put in a plea for people—there are not many of them—who, as far as I know, will be put out of work when the automatic service comes into the different towns in Ireland. I suggest that anybody who has served for a period of years in that capacity should not be left aside suddenly and left out of work but rather should be absorbed into some other section of the service.

I put down a question to the Minister today with regard to the provision of a telephone kiosk in a rural area. There is always the feeling when a Deputy asks for a telephone kiosk for a rural area, that sufficient investigation has not been made. The answer is nearly always the same, that there is not sufficient business to justify the erection of a kiosk in the area. That is a sort of stereotyped reply that is given to any rural Deputy who is seeking a kiosk.

My question today related to the Forestalstown area of Clonroche. I would point out that many taxpayers and ratepayers are living in that area. There is no telephone in the district and there is no chance of anybody getting a private telephone. In this case, some 20 families are concerned. I made application for a telephone and then I asked a question in this House. I got that answer, no more. The Minister has official advisers. When rural Deputies put down a question in relation to a kiosk, I suggest that the Minister should make personal inquiries, in as far as it is possible, and get all the details and then we shall not always get the same answer.

I want to say a few words about subpostmasters. The Minister told us he intends to meet the subpostmasters to discuss their problem with them. When this system was set up a good many years ago, there was nothing like the same amount of work for these officials to do as there is now. We had not all these social welfare benefits, pensions, telephone exchanges, in the majority of instances or, if we had telephone exchanges or telephones, we had not anything like the same amount of work as we have nowadays.

Some years back, in rural Ireland, practically every telephone exchange closed down at eight o'clock. It is now the exception rather than the rule for a telephone exchange to close down at that hour. The majority of them stay open until midnight and some have around the clock service. The subpostmasters have to give that service to the public. Furthermore, with the small remuneration they get, they have to pay an assistant in the vast majority of cases. I realise that the Minister is trying to meet the question. He will meet the subpostmasters. I want to put it that they have a very good case for consideration. They should not just be met, the case considered, and then be told they have enough money already: they have not. They have a justifiable case.

I have correspondence from a great number of these people. I know a lot of them are breaking down and that they are inadequately paid. Further, I know, with regard to the resetting of subpostmasters' districts, that in some cases these people who were inadequately paid have actually had their salaries reduced. At the moment, there is a letter in the Department in relation to a subpostmaster in my constituency about salary. The annual salary is £270. They have to pay an assistant. They have now been reduced to £240. The Minister ought to meet their case. They are one section of the public that have been badly treated.

Mr. Leneghan

I want to congratulate the Minister on increasing the Vote for his Department and giving increased wages, salaries and allowances. I would ask him, while he is at it, if at all possible, to take a step now which should have been taken a long time ago. He should eliminate what is nothing other than slave labour in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs by at least giving an appropriate salary to subpostmasters. These people are inadequately paid. In particular, I would ask him to give a proper wage to the ordinary postal delivery man who is working at the moment for a mere pittance. He does not earn in a week what any man in reasonable employment would earn in one day. I would ask the Minister to take steps to put those two categories on a reasonable basis of comparison, so far as wages and salaries are concerned, with the other types and grades of people in his Department.

As everybody knows, there are post offices throughout the country which are not post offices at all. They are merely a joke. It is very hard to blame the people who operate them for not improving them and making them look like post offices because the return is not sufficient to compensate them for their efforts or to make it a paying proposition for them to bring these offices up to standards which would be respectable at this stage of their existence. You cannot buy a money order in them; you cannot send a telegram from them. I have knowledge of several post offices from which the post is not delivered. That is an extraordinary situation in 1962. Surely any office which would give any service at all should have a proper postal service and should be able to take or receive a telegram and provide people with money orders? Commercial travelling is big business today and it is often essential that travellers should be able to get money orders but they are not. In very many post offices in my part of the country, they cannot get them.

On the question of letter boxes, if a certain type of person comes along and asks for a letter box, they get it while much more important communities are refused that facility in their area. It is fantastic, and it has happened in parts of Mayo and, I suppose, in other counties, that a letter box is readily put up within half a mile of a post office, but where a letter box is sought in an area at least three miles from a post office, it cannot be provided. There is something radically wrong there.

As regards the design of our stamps, it appears that a pavement artist has been taken into the Department and obviously one who was not able to make much money on the streets. Surely his latest contribution is the last word, two photos symmetrically superimposed on the flag of Russia? It is nothing else. It is a ridiculous type of stamp to turn out. If we look at stamps of some of the more backward nations, we find they can produce better stamps than we can. They are of good quality and design and advertise the best wares of the country. Some improvement should be brought about as a result of a united effort to show our beauty spots and our products. Instead, we seem to take the first thing that comes to hand and dish it out. Now they have the audacity to charge 4d. for it. We have been inundated with Celtic crosses. There must be millions of them.

Surely there is somebody in the Post Office with sufficient imagination to produce a stamp with an attractive design at intervals throughout the year that could be used to advertise the wares of the country? I ask the Minister to get away from the drab kind of plaster that we now get across the envelope, of poor quality, and poor design and some as big as a sheet of wallpaper. You would need four tongues to lick them. We have the ability to get away from that. Nobody is stupid enough to think otherwise, but everything is planned in Dublin, by Dublin, for Dublin and they do not care two hoots about the people in other parts of the country or overseas, who must certainly be delighted when they see the type of stamp we have now. You would need a magnifying glass to read what is on it.

The Minister has admitted that there is a backlog of 10,000 telephones to be installed. It is time something was done about that. While he said it was unlikely that number would increase, he did not give any indication of a hope of having it reduced. This is a service which I believe is paying and any money the Minister requires to have telephones installed should be obtained and used for that purpose. People want telephones and a system which is not even yet up to the ordinary standard of the bush telegraph is not good enough. A Deputy coming to Dublin on Tuesday could book a call to a reasonably distant place before he leaves his house and it still would not be ready for him when he got back on Thursday evening. That is true. The situation is fantastic.

I understand one of the excuses is that there are no technicians available but any ordinary vocational schoolboy, or any person of ordinary ability, could be taught to install a telephone. I am no technical genius but I have no trouble in installing a phone. There are thousands who have at least as high a technical standard as I have. It is a shame that in 1962 the country should be left with a telephone service such as we now have. I am not blaming the Minister who probably is not long enough in office to deal with it but there have been Ministers in office since 1922. They must have taken a lot of sleeping tablets, or have slept without them, but certainly the advance in the telephone system is very poor.

It is rather difficult for me to say anything about television because, as far as I can see, no really effective effort has been made to give the people of the West television. Lip service is paid to the provision of facilities in the west to keep people at home. But the only facilities operating are those which draw people away from home as fast as possible. Those who live in the west or the south are as much entitled to have television as those of the east, Dublin or any other area. It is a service that should be used to improve our way of life and our standard of education and amusement. Steps should be taken to ensure that television does not make us more English than the English themselves.

Most of the television programmes coming across to us are obviously aimed at a nation of morons. The educational standard is practically nil, with few exceptions. They are purely commercial. It is a shocking state of affairs to have people coming on radio and TV advising listeners or viewers: "Be sure to use Mickey Mouse flour", or "If you want your children to grow up bigger than the neighbours' children buy Mickey Mouse flour". Then there is a recipe for a cake and if any woman were to follow it and make the cake she would have a block as big as a house. This nonsense is being put across and foisted on the Irish people as entertainment for which they are expected to pay. Such stuff as "Mickey Mouse flour" and "Dr. So-and-so's pills" should be removed from the entertainment scene. If the British want to pursue that policy, which is an Americanised form of entertainment, that is up to them. It is a poor standard for Irish people and yet it is amazing to see how people, having this nonsense projected before them every day of their lives, actually believe it. They believe that one thing washes whiter than another. Millions of pounds are spent on this kind of trash which interrupts programmes and nobody does anything about it. I am asking the Minister to control this development. I am pleading with him to ensure that the standard of entertainment on radio and television is made compatible with the background of intelligent people so as not to have these media of entertainment blaring out trash.

I am not criticising because we do not get reception in the west. The only reason I should like to see reception there is that it might help to keep more people at home and make them happier and more contented. I do not agree with those prophets of doom who get up at every farmers' meeting and every other meeting and say that the way of life in the country is not what it should be and that one wants to go to the cities to have a good time. I certainly do not agree with that at all. It is only when people come to the cities that they see they have left the good time behind them.

The ordinary people in the country are entitled to a better standard of entertainment from television, and in many cases from the radio services as well, than they are getting. There are many parts where the reception crackles like the sound of eggs frying. That goes on day in day out. There must be some way of getting at the various causes of the interference. Something should be done about it. It is bad enough to pay for a radio licence and get nothing but now we are going to have to pay for a television licence and all we are going to get is perpetual "snow". That is not much benefit to the people in the country. Up here, as has been pointed out, the people are in the happy position of having a number of programmes which they can turn to, but no matter what happens we in the west will not have those facilities I expect in our lifetime, certainly not in the near future. I would ask the Minister, no matter where he gets the money, and nobody will criticise him for it, to extend the television service to the west and south, and the other parts which have not already got it, as rapidly as he can and also to take steps to procure the money and technical skill to provide the people with the telephone service they require.

Mr. P.J. Burke

We have heard a lot about Telefís Éireann and in my estimation it has done a very good job. It has been commended by some of our most severe critics. Naturally some of the sponsored programmes to which the previous speaker referred may not meet the wishes of the people but on the whole Telefís Éireann has succeeded in doing a very good job and we are all very pleased with it. It is a young organisation and I suppose we all have made mistakes in our time, and we will continue to do so, but, generally, it has succeeded in entertaining the people very well and I hope it will continue to do so. The Minister, who was responsible for introducing the Bill and for setting up the Board, deserves the congratulations and thanks of the House.

I should also like to say a few things in relation to County Dublin. I have made a number of complaints over the years in regard to the telephone service in Balbriggan. Balbriggan is a very busy centre with quite a number of factories and I have received reports from time to time that it takes quite a long time to get in touch with Dublin. I know that the Minister and his Department are working towards having an automatic exchange in Balbriggan. I shall be grateful to the Minister if he can expedite the setting up of that exchange because here is a centre which is worthy of consideration.

I should also like to refer to the old, hackneyed question to which I have often referred on previous occasions, that is, that I would like to see the State doing something for postmen who are riding antiquated bicycles. If possible, they should be supplied with some type of autocycle which would not be very expensive. That would be very helpful to the man who has been cycling for a number of years. I realise that the older men would prefer to use the ordinary pedal cycle or they might feel they were doing the job too quickly, but without interfering with the status quo of the postmen I think they should be helped in this regard. I am very pleased that the Minister is meeting the subpostmasters throughout the country and I am sure that he will try to do his best for them.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

My comments on this Estimate will be brief. I think it was Deputy Dillon who referred to the recent proposed charges as being a little budget. I understand they do not come into effect until 1st May or 30th of this month——

Mr. Hilliard

The stamps on 1st of May and the telephone services on 1st July.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

The Budget is due next week. Why did we not wait to incorporate this additional taxation in the Budget?

Mr. Hilliard

I am following the accepted procedure followed by my predecessor.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I understand that all taxation for the financial year is announced in the Budget. Is it that we are to be hit so hard in the Budget that this was to cushion us?

Mr. Hilliard

This is not taxation; this is the payment of wages and salaries.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

This is not taxation? Of course, it is taxation on the unfortunate people who have to buy stamps and pay the additional——

Mr. Hilliard

It is payment of wages and salaries.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

It is direct taxation.

Mr. Meaney

Direct payment for services.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

The Deputy would like to justify it? I am glad to see one Deputy, like Deputy Meaney, who is in favour of justifying it. I should like to know what the people in Cork will say when he tells the unfortunate people who have to communicate with their friends across the water that they will have to pay an extra 1d. to write to them and that to send a telegram in the case of illness or death they will have to pay an additional charge. Deputy Meaney welcomes that.

Mr. Meaney

Deputy Meaney believes in telling the truth.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I think it is direct taxation, no matter what any person says. It would have been better for the Minister to have waited and allowed his colleague, the Minister for Finance, to tell the country that these additional charges were to be inflicted. Then we would know where we stood at Budget time. Deputy Sherwin has pointed out the serious effects it will have on business and professional men. I know the serious effect it will have, because, in my business, I happen to pay for four different telephones. There is an old saying: "Cheaper by the dozen", but it does not apply to the Post Office.

Mr. Corish

The Deputy will have to get another eight telephones.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

If they were even cheaper by the quarter dozen, I would qualify.

Mr. Corish

The Deputy will have to get the dozen.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

It will have very serious effects but I question whether it will bring in more revenue. I know our county council write to a number of councillors and very often, in the one post, one gets three, four or five letters from the local authority, all addressed to the same individual but in different envelopes. It will become so serious that the local authorities and the business people will endeavour to economise and hold over the post until such time as they have several letters to send in the one envelope. Revenue may not be so buoyant as a result of this additional imposition as the Minister would like us to believe. That is something he should consider because there is such a thing as killing the goose, and when the goose is gone, the egg disappears with it.

Many Deputies referred to television and their experience of Telefís Éireann. I am in the unfortunate position that my constituents and I have not had an opportunity of seeing it yet, and from what I understand, it will be some considerable time before we do see it, but there is one gentleman already knocking at our doors in the locality reminding us of the fact that we have to pay a licence duty of £4, whether we have Irish television or not. The Minister's office is in the Post Office in O'Connell Street and I think he should follow the example of Nelson, so far as Donegal is concerned, and turn the blind eye to it for the present, until we are receiving Telefís Éireann in that county. I can assure him it will be very welcome when it does come.

I very much question if the booster station which he has now scheduled for erection will suffice to bring Telefís Éireann into every part of County Donegal. I do not believe it will. I understand even his engineers in their reports have stated that certain pockets of Donegal——

Mr. Hilliard

There may be a station in Donegal.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I am delighted to hear it and it is our sincere hope that once Mullaghmore is erected, there will be no delay in erecting a further station in our county.

Mr. Hilliard

We have plans for Letterkenny and other places.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I hope West Donegal will not be forgotten.

Mr. Hilliard

The Television Authority will examine that, when the main transmitters are in action.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I am very grateful for that announcement. There are other stations which we receive, and receive very well, but it would be a tragedy if we had to depend on those other stations rather than our own.

Mr. Tully

They may be lost.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I do not think there is any danger of that, but it does not really arise.

Mr. Corish

Is it not a crooked sort of county?

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Yes, but the people in it are not crooked.

Mr. Corish

I did not say that.

Mr. Hilliard

There is a mountain range in the county.

Mr. Tully

We heard a lot about the mountain range on another occasion.

Mr. Corish

We did not know which way the range went.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I very much welcome the Minister's announcement. In the meantime, I should not like him to overlook my suggestion about the blind eye. There are other parts of the country which are getting perfect reception and by the time the Minister's officials have knocked on their doors, perhaps we may have some vision in Donegal.

It was a tragedy that the Minister did not adopt the suggestion I made by question and answer on many occasions with regard to a licence for the installation of piped television. Even within the past few months the Minister said he would consider applications for piped television.

Mr. Hilliard

There is a legal difficulty now.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I was unaware of that but what a benefit it would be, not only to owners of television sets but also to town planning authorities, if we had piped television. All the unsightly aerials would be wiped out and guaranteed reception would be given to any person in the State who sought television through the medium of piping. I am unware of the legal difficulty. The Minister received me very kindly on a number of occasions and said he would consider the suggestions I made to him.

Mr. Hilliard

I was unaware of the legal difficulty until very recently.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I appreciate that difficulties can arise.

Mr. Tully

Perhaps we could have a legal argument.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Unfortunately, this is not the place for legal arguments.

Mr. S. Dunne

We had them the other day.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I am afraid that other places decide on the legality of our discussions.

Mr. Hilliard

I should say that I have no objection in principle.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

The Minister did not at any time express objection in principle but possibly his advisers delayed him in making this announcement. In isolated pockets of North Scotland, miles away from television centres, there are three or four alternative programmes through the medium of piped television at a weekly rate. The proprietor of the pipe pays the licence and passes it on by weekly instalments to the hirer. If the Minister could get over his legal difficulty—perhaps he would consult with his counterpart across the water where they must have found the same difficulties and got over them—it would do away with the forests of unsightly aerials——

Mr. Hilliard

It would mean new legislation.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

If necessary, the Minister should try to do it now.

Mr. Hilliard

I shall do the best I can.

Mr. O'Donnell

If he does not, he is putting the owners of television sets to the expense of paying £15, or whatever it may be, for the erection of aerials which will become obsolete immediately we have piped television. He would also be doing a very good turn not only for Telefís Éireann but for the people, and he would be serving their pockets because a considerable amount of damage has been caused by the blowing down of television aerials and a considerable amount of money is being put into the pockets of the insurance companies through the insurance of the aerials; whereas if we had piped television, the aerials would disappear and damage would not be incurred through aerials being blown down, and the premiums of the insurance on the aerials would disappear. I do not think the House would obstruct in any way legislation which the Minister——

Mr. Hilliard

It would be the Minister for Local Government.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

——or his colleague, the Minister for Local Government, might introduce under town planning or something like that. I suggested at the time that something should be done to amend, if necessary, the Town Planning Act to enable piped television to be provided.

As I say, I have not seen Telefís Éireann and I am not in a position to criticise it, but I must say that I have heard nothing but praise for the programmes being produced. I was very glad indeed to hear Deputy Faulkner say that the parts of the programme devoted to the Irish language are very good. He said that he was glad to see Irish taken out of the schools and that that was all to the good. It is the policy of Fine Gael to take Irish out of the schools and endeavour to make it the spoken language of the country. I am very glad indeed that Telefís Éireann have adopted that policy. I hope it will be the success which I believe it will be. I know Deputy Faulkner very well indeed and I know the keen enthusiasm he has for the Irish language. I know the amount of voluntary time he gives to it. I have nothing but respect for Deputy Faulkner and I am very glad indeed to hear this praise from him and his suggestion that taking the Irish language out of the schools is all to the good. It will help to revive the language as a spoken language as distinct from a literary language.

Many speakers mentioned the delay in the installation of telephones. The telephone service is the one branch of the Minister's Department which really pays. The State makes money on telephones and, therefore, every effort should be made to prevent a backlog in their installation. The Minister may have difficulty in recruiting staff to install them but if there is such a difficulty he should consult his colleague, the Minister for Defence, so as to get from the Department of Defence the technicians available there. If necessary he should give the Department of Defence a promise that these technicians, when they have their time served in the Forces, would get preference in his Department. That would assist in clearing up the backlog and would bring more revenue to his Department than the increased telephone charges.

It is a disgrace that people should be waiting for two years to have telephones installed. It may be that the Minister cannot get the machinery and equipment necessary but every effort should be made to get them and if they are short he should borrow from the Army. There is considerable delay in getting trunk calls in this country. I know it is a big problem but we should have more trunk lines throughout the country.

Mr. Hilliard

That is the kernel of the problem.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I am very glad to hear that some trunk lines are being laid underground. That is a step in the right direction. There is less danger of storm damage and interruption of services if our trunk lines are laid underground and we should also provide for the laying of ordinary telephone lines underground. Only last week I saw an estate which is being developed in town and there are no telephone wires, electric wires or poles of any kind in it. It was an eye-opener to me but I understand that the people developing that particular estate had considerable difficulty in persuading the various Departments that it would be beneficial to do the work underground.

For years I have been harping on the salaries of sub-postmasters. By means of question and answer I found out that there are sub-postmasters working in this State with less than £90 a year.

Mr. Hilliard

It is £125 now. That is the minimum.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I am glad to hear that it is that amount now but for that they have to provide premises, light, heat, and fixtures such as counters and letter boxes. If there is a telephone they may have to give a 24-hour service, all for the miserable sum of £125 a year. I know that the Minister has said on many occasions, and that his predecessors have also said, that most of these people have a small business attached to the premises and that the sub-post office is an added attraction to their business. I think that is a very wrong attitude indeed. It is nothing but blackmail. I think the sub-postmasters should be paid enough to ensure that temptation will never fall their way.

Mr. S. Dunne

Like the judges.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

The less we say about them, the better. Now that we are being generous to officials of another Department it might give the Minister the opportunity to persuade the Government to be a little more generous with the sub-postmasters. If you examine the records of prosecutions for defalcations it is often in these small post offices that the thefts take place and where force of circumstances can drive the unfortunate holder to take what does not belong to him or her. I am glad the Minister is meeting them.

Mr. Hilliard

I did meet them.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Has anything come of it?

Mr. Hilliard

I met them on a limited basis to hear their views on the working of the consultative council of 1956. I did not meet them to discuss their present claims.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Have they got an increase?

Mr. Hilliard

They have got some since 1956.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I hope that is not the end of it.

Mr. Hilliard

I do not want to mislead anyone in relation to my meeting with them. I am considering the points they put to me and I am not making any promises.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

It is a good thing that the Minister should hear their point of view and I hope he will meet them more often. It is only in that way he will get a clear picture of the position. The Minister should consider the question of dividing the telephone exchanges from the sub-post offices. If he could do that it would be a good thing. Everything that is said by the operator and by the person using the telephone is audible to the public in these small offices. It will be a good thing if they could be separated.

Mr. Hilliard

That would be a difficult business.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I do not think it would be so difficult but the Minister might have a look at the matter. I was glad to hear Deputy Burke speak of the rural postmen. They have a very tough life, indeed, and in my part of the country their average wage is £5 to £6. It is a peculiar thing that the fewer the number of letters a rural postman has to deliver the less is his pay despite the fact that he may have to go up a boreen for a mile or two miles or up the side of a mountain to deliver an isolated Christmas card that a city or town postman would deliver in his stride.

Mr. Corish

Or an electioneering address.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Yes, or a poor rate demand note. You can tell by the look of the postman that he has got a bunch of demand notes to deliver. Some consideration should be given to these unfortunate men who have to go out in inclement weather and deliver in wild country and on mountainsides. Now that autocycles are so cheap, they should be provided for them. It would make for quicker delivery, shorter hours and might mean economy.

Mr. Corish

They are paid at an hourly rate.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

It also depends on the volume of business, I understand, in different places.

Mr. Corish

Not with the auxiliaries.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

The postman is a man who has always been welcome in any part of the country. No matter what regime we lived under the postman was always welcome until recently. Now we have turned him into a spy. In addition to delivering greetings it is his duty to spy into your house to see whether you have a television or wireless licence and, if you have not, to report it to headquarters. That is very unfair.

Mr. O'Malley

How would he know whether you had a wireless licence or not?

Mr. P. O'Donnell

If the Deputy were here the other night when Deputy Sherwin gave us a discourse on this matter of prosecutions in respect of wireless licences and as to whether you had the apparatus necessary for receiving programmes he would know all about it. As I understand the law, as long as one has an aerial up and some receiving set whether it is working or not one must pay a licence. In regard to television, in rural Ireland, for instance, so far and until we get piped television it will be necessary to have these aerials which are visible. I understand it is the duty of the postman to report where he sees an aerial for which there is no licence.

Mr. Harte

He will be kept busy in Donegal.

Mr. Allen

Aerials are not necessary at all.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I can assure the Deputy that in Donegal we have aerials up to 40 feet in the hope of procuring reception. The Deputy was not present when I opened my remarks by telling the Minister that we could not even get Telefís Éireann. In some places in my home county there are huge aerials up and in one place, in Pettigo, there is a very large aerial up on the Six Counties side and piped apparatus up on the Twenty-Six Counties side which is the only way down in that pocket that television can be received.

Mr. Corish

Any sort of television?

Mr. O'Donnell

Yes. That is how it is received.

Mr. Corish

I thought you got B.B.C. and U.T.V. all over Donegal.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Except in Pettigo where they have piped television. Another matter to which I would like to refer is the change of the address system. I do not know whether it is general but in my county we have changed our postal address system. Long ago if you addressed a letter to Burtonport, Co. Donegal or any other town in Donegal it was delivered in time but now for some reason unknown to me you must put "Burtonport, Letterkenny", "Dungloe, Letterkenny", "Buncrana, Lifford", and so on. This is causing a considerable amount of damage and inconvenience to our tourist industry. I know of tourists who have booked, say, at Burtonport. Burtonport is about 32 miles west of Letterkenny. Having booked there, the tourist arrives by car and instead of going direct to Burtonport the first place he makes for is Letterkenny to inquire where Burtonport is. It is just the same as the tourist who is making for Sneem having to go to Killarney to inquire where Sneem is not knowing that it is 25 miles away just as Burtonport is 32 miles from Letterkenny.

If we must have this change, which I understand is purely for the convenience of the sorter, why not give numerical appellations, say, "Burtonport, Co. Donegal 1"; "Glenties, Donegal 2" and if necessary divide up the area numerically? In that way the sorter, after a very short period, will be able to clear matters up. I have met the Minister personally on this matter and have tried to put my point of view to him. He explained to me that his officials find difficulty in adopting the scheme which I have suggested. However, in the interest of the tourist industry, in the interest of prompt delivery of letters and in the interest of economy, I would ask him to revert to the old system. If there must be a change, make it a numerical change and in that way assist us in our county.

Mr. S. Dunne

It was with considerable apprehension that the entire country looked forward to the starting of Telefís Éireann. Many of us felt that if this was going to be a visual representation of Radio Éireann programmes, it would be very depressing. The opening night, understandably, was not very encouraging but it has to be said—and it is agreed by everybody —that since then, particularly in the Dublin area where reception is pretty good, we have something to be proud of in Telefís Éireann. We have succeeded in proving that we can project a television image of a distinctive national character, that we have in our country talent comparable with that to be found anywhere else.

Irish people who have had television sets over the past number of years will have become familiar with the very well-produced programme on BBC Television called "Tonight". That programme attracted more viewers than any other and I believe its rating, as they call it in England, was higher than that of any other programme on BBC Television or ITV. The happy position has been created here that our "Broadsheet" has usurped the position of "Tonight" and is engaging the attention of and providing recreation for the vast majority of television owners in the country who can receive Telefís Éireann. The people who run "Broadsheet" deserve the highest commendation that can be given to them by this House.

The Minister deserves to be congratulated, too, because it did take a certain amount of courage and foresight to press forward with the gigantic operation of instituting a television service with all its attendant problems. Our thanks are also due to the very able Director whose services we were lucky enough to obtain.

There is one aspect of this whole problem of television which affects my constituency very considerably, that is, the television licence. Along with Deputy Clinton, Deputy Burke and the Minister for Social Welfare, I represent Ballyfermot, an area containing the greatest collection or agglomeration of television sets in this country. Anybody who has had occasion to go through that area will know that practically every house has a television set. There are some 5,000 houses in the scheme and the people living in them are mostly artisans, labourers and skilled workers earning from £9 to £10 a week and with on average, from four to six children. They pay differential rents and, as I referred to previously here, they are being driven insane by these differential rents. They are being mulcted because of these rents and they are being robbed by C.I.E. in bus fares. And now on top of that, they are being asked to find £4 in one lump for television licences. Any reasonable person who knows the situation of these working people will agree with me when I say it is a total and utter impossibility for them to pay the £4 together at one time. Already I have heard there have been cases of people being brought to court for not having paid this licence fee.

These people have to struggle from day to day in order to exist, and I make a strong appeal to the Minister to make an effort to find some alternative method of collecting this £4. Deputy O'Donnell asked about piped television and the undoubted boon it would be. But that is very much in the future. We have to face the present practical problem of whole forests of television aerials in working-class homes in Dublin and how these people are to find the £4 for the privilege of having television in their homes.

I would make this suggestion. Ninety-nine per cent. of the people concerned are buying their sets on hire-purchase. It is a continuing thing. I have yet to meet anybody who has contracted to buy a television set on H.P. who has reached the end of the trail where he can say: "This set is my own." By the time the instalments are completed, the set in many cases has become obsolete and must be replaced. Therefore, it goes on all the time. I would suggest to the Minister that it should be possible to make an arrangement with the hire-purchase and rental companies to include with the repayments or rentals a weekly contribution of, say, 1/3d. or 1/6d. towards the cost of the licence. The hire-purchase companies must be making colossal profits because if you buy a set for cash, you pay only about half the hire-purchase price. The onus should be placed on these people who are making huge profits to collect the licence fee. Some of them are based outside this country—in fact, some of them are international cartels—and they should be made initially responsible for the licence, even if it takes legislation to do so, making whatever arrangement they can between the purchasers and themselves for the collection of the fee.

Deputy Sherwin, with his customary forthrightness, raised the question of the cost to Deputies of the increase in the postage rate. I know that few will touch on this but I intend to do so. Every Deputy will agree with what Deputy Sherwin has said. The public do not realise at all what this can mean to members of the House. I have no doubt it will be a big impost also on the commercial community, but the commercial community are people who invest money to make money. Deputies are people on fixed salaries on which they have to exist and meet mounting living costs, which apply to Deputies as much as everybody else.

It is interesting that for every letter a Deputy receives, he has to expend 1/- in postage. From 1st of May, he will have to expend 4d. to acknowledge the letter of the person who writes to him; 4d. to make the time-honoured representations; and, when he receives the reply to the representations, another 4d. in order to inform the writer of the letter. It is axiomatic that if you do not answer your letters, your presence in this House will be of short duration. Deputy Burke had enough letters here to-night to fill a parish. It is obvious there are Deputies —not all Deputies—who have a very considerable postage bill. It is high time the Minister considered that Deputies should be given at least the same facilities as are given to underpaid Ministers in this respect.

To revert to television, I was perhaps the first to suggest here by means of question that the proceedings of the House be televised. I suppose I shall not live to see the day, but I should like to. If the proceedings were televised, it would elevate the plane of discussion and would do nothing but good. It would certainly make for better attendance.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

It would certainly elevate a few Deputies to their feet.

Mr. S. Dunne

Quite. I am not saying this in any spirit of superiority because I am as much at fault as anybody, as far as non-attendance is concerned. I do not believe what I am suggesting will occur because influences will work against it. In its absence, however, and as an alternative, all Deputies should have an opportunity of appearing on television. We should use this great medium to exploit to the full democracy as we know it. We should take example from other countries where rival Parties are provided with a forum to discuss their problems and differences in a reasonable way. If we can do that, we shall be showing we have reached the stage where we can talk and disagree about our problems, without taking off our coats and beating one another. For too long we had the situation that brawn rather than intellect determined what Government were in power and in what way the country would be run.

I would strongly recommend to the Minister that he should consider some arrangement with the Television Authority whereby there would be a regular programme with Deputies of the various Parties and that even the lowly Independents would be given an opportunity to debate their points of view with other members, freely, openly and frankly, on Telefís Éireann.

Mr. Meaney

I join with other Deputies in complimenting the Minister and his staff on the improvement in postal and telephone services in recent years. Although that improvement was marked, there is room for much further improvement. While some of my constituency around Cork harbour might be termed a built-up area, the major portion of it is purely rural, with only one or two towns and villages not too plentiful. The time has come when the man living in the remote parts should get an earlier delivery of his daily post. I know Rome was not built in a day and I do not expect all these improvements in a short space of time. I am a believer in modern business methods and particularly in mechanisation. I would join with Deputy Burke in suggesting to the Minister that everything possible should be done to encourage the use of mechanical transport by the rural postmen.

Where I live, the post was delivered until quite recently any time up to 3 p.m. Now a big change has taken place. It meant in some cases changing addresses, to which some Deputies took exception. Now deliveries over the whole area are finished practically by noon. The aim in the rural areas should be to have every postman back in his post office, with his work completed, not later than 1 p.m. I realise our industrial areas and business people need special facilities, but so do the people in the remote areas. However, I appreciate the efforts of the Minister and his staff to give that service.

Some criticism has been hurled at the Minister and his Department because of the backlog in the installation of telephones I regret that backlog is there but I am not unmindful of the fact that the demand which caused it is a sign of the progress and prosperity of our country. It shows our people are availing of this widespread prosperity to get more of the things which life can give for their personal convenience.

The Minister has also been criticised because of the extra penny on the postage stamp. That definitely will be an impost but I and everybody else will have to bear a share of it. The self-same people who took exception to this impost are those who throughout the debate have asked the Minister to give better conditions of employment and higher wages and salaries to all employed. I personally have no objection to that but I should like to see those people being straightforward enough to realise that, if these things are given, they must be paid for.

It reminds me of the story of a lady who went into a butcher's shop for a leg of lamb. Having placed her order, she saw a number of lambs being driven to the slaughter-house. She said to the butcher: "By the way, where are those lovely sheep being driven to?" When he said they were being driven to the slaughter-house, she exclaimed "How cruel!" But the butcher said to her "Lady, was it not you who asked for the leg of lamb?" The people who have asked for this extra expenditure and who, at the same time, are reluctant to pay their share of it and are very sympathetic with the people who have to do so are no better than the lady who asked for the leg of lamb and thought at the same time it was a cruel thing to drive the sheep into the slaughter-house.

Again, I ask the Minister to do his utmost to improve postal and telephone services in the rural areas. It is one of the things that will help to some extent to offset the drabness of country life and the inconvenience caused by late post. It is very important nowadays that post be early. In conclusion, I wish to express my appreciation of the steps already taken by the Minister to provide better services.

Mr. Harte

I should like to deal, first of all, with Radio Éireann and to inform the Minister that, after dark, we in Donegal have no reception whatsoever from that station. In fact reception during daylight hours is not much better, being affected by interference. With the advent of television, radio is now a medium which could be devoted much more to providing special programmes for hospitals. Very few of us who have television sets will in future listen to Radio Éireann and I believe the Minister should therefore make representations to the Radio Éireann Authority to provide more programmes devoted to hospitals and aimed at the homes of patients.

One programme I object to on Radio Éireann is "Today in the Dáil". On 8th March, almost 15 minutes of the programme were devoted to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice and the 10.15 news bulletin was practically altogether taken up with them. This was done despite the fact that seven Opposition Deputies spoke on the subject. There should be more recognition given to all Parties in the House and not merely to Fianna Fáil.

On the subject of Telefís Éireann, there is very little I can add that would help the Minister to improve the service we now have. In Donegal, we have no Telefís Éireann service at all. I heard Deputy Faulkner say that both UTV and the BBC tended to ignore Ireland completely. I disagree entirely with that. While we must appreciate that both stations are British operated, they do give justice to this country and very often they surprise one with programmes of a very national character. That applies particularly to UTV and I think it is only fair to say so.

While we welcome the efforts being made by Telefís Éireann, I should like the Minister to remember that in County Donegal at the moment we receive both UTV and BBC and we hope that when we do receive Telefís Éireann, this new service for which we are paying so highly will not interfere with the UTV and BBC reception we now have.

Deputy O'Donnell dealt with the question of telephones. What puzzles me about the Engineering Section of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is that when they are laying trunk lines and when they need 20, they lay only 20. I can understand that the practice of the Department is just to meet the demand, but surely it would be a simple matter when laying 20 lines, to lay some extra for future use. I would respectfully urge the Minister that in future when the Engineering Section are laying 20 lines for immediate use they should lay 40.

In County Donegal, we have three main exchanges—Letterkenny, Donegal town and Lifford. These three control practically the whole of the county. I cannot understand why a person living in Raphoe, half-way between Lifford and Convoy, must be linked with Lifford to get through to Convoy. A person could be in Convoy and back again before the link-up was made and in fact that has happened on occasions. I cannot see why there should not be a direct connection between small villages. Putting local calls through the large exchanges tends to block the lines. In such conditions, we always seem to blame the local telephonists, whereas the blame should fall on the Department which does not provide a proper service for the telephonists.

The next item I want to deal with is the letter postage service. We have three main receiving offices in Donegal —Donegal town, Lifford and Letterkenny. I am wondering whether the new regulations applying there are really new regulations or the old ones being properly enforced. Whether they are old or new, the old system that was being used in County Donegal was by far the best and no one outside the Department can see any reason why it should have been changed.

For example, there are 53 suboffices under the main post office in Lifford. There are 38 under the Letterkenny post office and 25 under that in Donegal town. Seven post offices in Donegal have no need to use Lifford, Letterkenny or Donegal. If I post a letter in Dublin to a constituent and refrain from putting "Lifford" in the address, it may take two days to get there, despite the fact that six months ago it would have got there in one day. I have been told that this is due entirely to the sorters in the Dublin offices who do not wish to find out where the letters are going and dump them into Donegal town. Donegal town, I may remind the Minister, controls 25 suboffices, one-fifth of Donegal. If this is a fact, it becomes more expensive for the letter post to get through to Donegal.

Mr. Norton

The sorters are not responsible. This is a Departmental scheme to which the sorters are required to conform. They have no responsibility.

Mr. Harte

The sorters were quite willing to do it until the Department recommended that they should adhere strictly to the rules. I believe the Minister is not really aware of the implications involved in Donegal or he would ask the Department to revert to the old system or rather relax the strict ruling of the present system.

We are told that the increased postal charges now going through the House are to pay extra wages. There is one section of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs which is forgotten. I refer to auxiliary postmen. An auxiliary postman can give 40 years' service to the Department and the day that he resigns, having reached a particular age limit, he is forgotten. This is a matter that the Minister should consider very seriously. These men carry out their duties the same as graded postmen do. I see no reason why, having given 40 years of their lives to the service they are not acknowledged by way of pension. I know them and every Deputy knows them.

There are subpostmasters that we all know also, especially those in the smaller villages in rural Ireland. The argument put forward by the Department is that most of these suboffices have small businesses attached. That may be so. Nevertheless, I feel they are not being properly remunerated for the services they give. I know a case where a suboffice provided a service on last Christmas Day and received 3/4d. for doing so. The person in charge of that office was there for the purpose of putting through telephone calls. I suggest to the Minister that 3/4d. is not a large amount to offer any individual to work overtime on Christmas Day.

Mr. N. Lemass

When Alexander Bell invented the telephone in 1876, few people anticipated that 85 years later the telephone service in Ireland would be employing over 4,000 people. As Deputy Dillon said, lack of anticipation of demand has been one of the weaknesses in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs over the years. In fact, not until 1945 did the Government take a very serious interest in the expansion of the telephone service but, in spite of the plans that were drawn up at that time, a lot of ground was lost during the War. However, it may be said that lack of anticipation of increased demand has left the Department with the arrears now facing it in the provision of new telephones.

The Minister has taken full measure of the position and has pointed out that he has persuaded the Minister for Finance to let him have capital provision of £3½ million for 1962/63 as compared with £2½ million in the previous year. The average provision over several years prior to that was less than £2 million.

The increase in the capital provision is as it should be, for two reasons. The first is that with the progress in the national economy the demand for telephones will increase very rapidly. It is a good thing to see that so many people, particularly in my constituency in Crumlin and Walkinstown, the working class people, the skilled men, the artisans and so on, can now afford to have a telephone in their private homes and need not regard a telephone, as was the case prior to the war, as a luxury for the better off person. The second reason why I think the Minister was quite right in seeking and the Minister for Finance was quite right in providing this capital expenditure is that, with the exception of two years, since 1933 the Department of Posts and Telegraphs has shown a surplus on the telephone services. The two exceptions were the year ended March, 1952, and the year ended March, 1953. Since then the surplus has tended to increase. The rate of progress last year was in the region of 10 per cent., which compares well with the position in any country in Europe, including Italy and Federal Germany. With the additional telephones that will be provided by this additional money, the services will not only pay for themselves but will help to create additional employment in the Department.

I understand that of the 487 additional staff in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs nearly 400 are employed in the telephone services. That may not be the exact figure but I understand the telephone services contributed in a large measure to the 487 additional posts.

When one remembers the number of staff employed by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, one realises the responsibility devolving on the Minister. Often, people do not stop to think of that aspect of the matter except, perhaps, when there is some controversy in regard to television or some other matter. The total staff in the Minister's Department is over 17,000 people. I do not think there are many, if any, employers who have a greater number of staff than that. An admirable feature of the Department is that it is run on quasi-business lines and pays for itself. It provides services and the people pay for the services they receive. In other words, I agree with a previous speaker who suggested that the increased postal charges are not, in effect, direct taxation. They are an increased charge in respect of the services they require and the increases are necessary to enable the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to pay a reasonable wage as far as possible.

I believe that some sections of the Department and some categories could and should be paid more. I have expressed concern on this Estimate in previous years with regard to the large number of temporary postmen, in particular, who remain temporary nearly all their lives. I believe there are not as many today as there were but the position still needs some attention.

Before going away entirely, however, from the telephone service, I want to refer to a recent development which reminds me of criticism I have heard from time to time of bodies such as the E.S.B. If somebody falls in arrears in his telephone account not only is he cut off immediately but, when seeking reconnection, the Department now demand a deposit of no less than £10 which is held until such time as the connection is discontinued.

It seems to me that this is getting very tough indeed. It seems an unfair way of dealing with a situation like this. A person may fall on bad times, may be out of employment for the time being. There may be illness or one thing or another which causes a shortage of money. When he seeks reconnection, he has to pay up everything he owes. The telephone is still in his house and nothing but a simple switch-on required. It is most unreasonable at that stage to demand such a deposit.

If somebody broke the receiver and left it in such a condition that it would have to be replaced, then I would say there was justification for it but when a simple switch-on connection is all that is necessary, then I think this charge is most unreasonable. I have come across three or four such cases in the past few weeks. It appears to be normal practice now. I hope the Minister will examine the possibility of discontinuing it.

I understand that telephone receives are actually manufactured in this country, not just assembled. I understand that full manufacture takes place. Nevertheless, as far as I can see, the majority of telephones being put into service are of Swedish or German origin. I understand that quite a large number were bought some years ago and that they are being taken from stock. When the Minister's Department is considering buying new telephones every effort should be made to buy them from the home manufacturer.

On the subject of postage stamps, in this country we are confined almost entirely to a one-colour design. I have raised this matter previously by way of question. The Minister informed me that the possibility of bringing out a multicoloured stamp is under examination. I believe it has been examined before but we are still basically confined to a one-colour stamp. Last week I saw in a newspaper article that a group of islands with a population of about 45,000 has not only issued 14 denominations of stamps but that they are multicoloured and are a very attractive issue. If it pays a country as small as that to do that sort of thing it should certainly be a proposition for us to consider.

I was glad to see that the individual who invented the machine for date-stamping packages was adequately recognised in the various newspapers and on television and that his ability was in general recognised as something very useful and something to be encouraged. I hope that in the event of this machine or any such invention proving successful the Minister will consider giving adequate monetary reward as well as high praise.

Referring to the organisation of his Department, the Minister said that methods, techniques and staffing in every branch of its activities are subject to continuous review. It may be true —and I have every reason to believe it is true—but to my mind the examination does not necessarily result in a modern approach, whatever about new techniques. Some of the methods still in force seem rather Victorian. Take a trainee postman. He misdelivers a letter, puts it into the wrong house, or somebody hands him back a letter which he misdelivered the day before and he puts it into the right house the next day. If it is found out that he made that mistake, it can result not only in a fine but in his permanent appointment being put back. He can be put on what I believe is called "the long walk", the most difficult journey for the postman, or he might find himself down in the night sorting office. To my mind, this is rather Victorian. The worst aspect is that it goes down on his record book and that it can be held against him if he makes another mistake a few years later. Some allowance should be made for genuine mistakes. We realise the importance of protecting the mail. However, if only one of these penalties were imposed, such as a small fine, it would be a far more satisfactory situation.

Having referred to night sorting, I may say I was very pleased to hear, in relation to the new central sorting office for the Department, that the contract for construction and steel-work has been placed and that tenders have been invited for site clearance and foundation work. This has long been needed and will be very much appreciated, particularly by the people who work in the sorting office. It will add to what I think the Minister proudly and rightly boasted about, namely greater productivity in his Department.

I must agree with Deputy Sherwin and Deputy Dunne about the new postal charges. Stamps are a service which Deputies must use by virtue of their position. I must agree that it will be a very serious imposition on Deputies who look after their correspondence as conscientiously as they can. I support the view that the Minister should consider introducing a limited free post for Deputies provided it is used only in the House in the exercise of their duties as public representatives. Deputies' allowances are taxable and the cost of postage stamps is not a very easy thing to assess if one is seeking tax allowance from the Revenue Commissioners.

The increased charges for telephones are probably the most reasonable increases that have been put before the House and should not give any ground for complaint. The rental in 1925 was £6; in 1945, it became £6 5s. and it has now been increased by £1 10s. In comparison with other costs, Deputies must agree that it is reasonable to increase the rental from £6 in 1925 to £7 15s. now. In proportion to the value of money and the greater service available, such as direct dialling to many parts of the country, the increase is reasonable.

One Deputy said it was a great pity that the shortwave radio station was done away with apparently without any thought except that if it was a Fianna Fáil scheme, it must be a bad one. It is a pity this scheme has not been revived and when the Minister is replying, I would appreciate very much if he would refer to it. Perhaps there is new thinking on it in these days. In general, it would be nice to hear.

Some Deputies have spoken a good deal regarding the personalities interviewed on television. The inference was, even by a previous speaker, Deputy Dunne, that the poor Independents did not get a look in. Deputy Dunne has already been on television and on either side of the House only a handful of Deputies who are associated with Parties have appeared on T.V. In the main, it is the Independents who have got a fair proportion of time and have no cause for complaint. Some former Deputies seem to appear more frequently than sitting Deputies.

Finally, I wish to refer to subpost offices in Dublin. I am particularly concerned about old age pensioners who are compelled to walk to collect the pensions from the subpost office. Although good cases have been made for not having more offices in such districts as Crumlin and Drimnagh I think that entire question should be re-examined. It is a great strain on some of these people to walk such distances. I know the Minister will quote times and distances which will seem reasonable but I speak from practical experience of seeing these people walking. Rural Deputies no doubt will say their constituents must go so much further but in Dublin city there are many people who will be only too anxious to have a subpost office put into their stores or shops. Whatever is said of what they are paid there will be no shortage of applicants, if the Minister wishes to increase the number of subpost offices. I should like the Minister to re-examine the matter from that point of view for the convenience of the public that he and his Department have served so well.

Mr. Sweetman

There are a few points in relation to the Estimate generally about which the Minister might give some further information when concluding. During the past six months, I have heard fairly considerable complaint about the delay in the delivery of letters from Britain. I can remember that 35 years ago one always got a letter posted in London on one day on the following morning in Kildare. Now we never get them in less than two days. I cannot understand how that arises seeing that the mail now comes by air instead of by the slower method of train and boat.

I should also like the Minister to explain for the benefit of the public what exactly happens about cross-Channel traffic when planes are held up by fog. That is not something for which I can blame the Minister. I can blame him for many things but not for creating fog, except sometimes when he wants to avoid answering a difficult question in the House. When planes are unable to operate because of fog or when it appears likely that persistent fog will close airports, is cross-Channel mail automatically switched to the older but, perhaps more reliable—in certain circumstances—boat and train? In the past two years, I have heard considerable complaint among the business community in Dublin that cross-Channel mail was very severely delayed. Some of these complaints coincided with the rather persistent fog we had around that time. It may well be the fog was the cause of it. It would make for better public relations if the people had a clearer picture of what actually happens when airports must close because of weather conditions.

Other Deputies mentioned the achievement by way of invention on the part of one of our own people in the Department to which the Minister referred. I had always understood that in addition to the praise which the Minister very rightly bestows in such circumstances, there is a monetary reward scheme also. I thought, when people in any Department produced an invention for that Department, recognition was shown not merely by a pat on the back but by something in the hand as well. If I am wrong, I think it is a void in our arrangements which should be filled. We should have some method of expressing in the form of monetary rewards appreciation for improvements of that sort. Only that sort of effort in the long run will enable the Post Office to move ahead with improvements and inventions of our own.

The Minister, as usual, had a sorry tale to tell about the telegraph service. That has been the picture down the years. The Minister, it would appear, from a strictly accounting point of view, would prefer if no telegrams were sent because the service loses money each year. I wonder if some more radical approach could not be made to the matter to see if there is some form of telegram which could be popularised so as to ensure that by greater traffic one would get over the hump. It seems unnecessary, for example, in nine out of ten cases, to have confirmation of a telegram delivered by telephone unless confirmation is specifically requested. That might cut out some of the expense involved.

I should like the Minister to explain to the House, in relation to the telegraph service, what it is that causes the loss and why it is that one cannot get over that persistent deficit. I should also like the Minister to explain whether or not the telex service on its own is a profitable service from the Department's point of view. Is it clear that if one allowed the telegraph service to wither away—I am not suggesting that should be allowed—the telex service would as such present a profit to the Department in its work——

Mr. Hilliard

It would.

Mr. Sweetman

——and approximately what is the profit, if it is a profitable service, on that section of the telegraph service as it is at present? Of course one could not allow the telegraph service to wither away in present conditions because in many parts of rural Ireland it is the only method of delivering important messages, although I have heard cases in my own constituency in Kildare, which is not supposed to be so very remote, where messages had not been delivered as quickly as one would wish. It is, of course an essential method of carrying news quickly to areas where the people have not got telephones, and unfortunately very often carrying bad news. If the telephone service goes on expanding, I suppose the Minister anticipates that the telegraph service will decrease. Is it his belief that with that decrease in the private telephone service, the telex service will completely take the place of the telegraph service for business and commercial purposes? That will probably be the result but I should like to have some further information from the Minister.

In relation to telephones, there was a paper published by the Statistical Society on the Irish telephone system and to which Deputy Dillon has referred. It was a most valuable paper. I have not the pleasure of knowing the person who wrote it but I presume he is an official of the Minister's Department.

Mr. Hilliard

That is right.

Mr. Sweetman

It certainly was a most comprehensive document and enabled anybody who read it to get an understanding and appreciation of the telephone system as it works with us. I was inclined to the view that the Minister would have been wise to have spent the small amount of money involved in sending a copy of the paper to each Deputy before his Estimate was taken. It would have meant that anyone who had got it before and wanted to consider the question would have been able to speak with historical accuracy of the pattern and the picture.

The Minister, when answering a question in relation to the development of the telephone service the other day, did say one thing which I am afraid was not entirely true. By way of reply to a supplementary question, he informed the House, as far as I could hear—and I freely admit I did not check in the Official Report—that the delay in the provision of certain telephone development arose from a cut imposed in 1956. The fact of course was that in 1955 and 1956, the amount of telephone capital provided was considerably more than—I do not think the Minister was there himself — the Fianna Fáil Minister provided in the years 1957/58 and 1959/60. It was only in the financial year 1960/61 that the Fianna Fáil Government succeeded in getting up to the figure of 1956/57. I am glad the Minister has now gone further than that, but for the sake of accuracy, it is as well to make it clear that it was the Minister's Government——

Mr. Hilliard

It is accurate that £6 million was provided in 1956, is it not? That is what the Act provided for, the expenditure of £6 million——

Mr. Sweetman

Yes.

Mr. Hilliard

——in 1956.

Mr. Sweetman

That is not what the Minister said the other day.

Mr. Hilliard

That is what I intended to convey. It was in reply to a supplementary question asked about a week ago.

Mr. Sweetman

It was in reply to a supplementary question asked by Deputy Dillon. The amount of £6 million is right but if the Minister meant to imply that the amount was not as much as people would have liked——

Mr. Hilliard

I was not apportioning blame to anybody. I did not intend that to be conveyed.

Mr. Sweetman

Anyway, the facts are that the telephone capital expenditure in 1955/56 was £1,750,000; in 1956/57, £1,650,000; in 1957/58, £1,150,000; in 1958/59, £1,450,000; and in 1959/60, £1,300,000. From then on, there is an increase.

Mr. Hilliard

And there was a reason for every figure there.

Mr. Sweetman

If the Fianna Fáil Government in three years were not able to reach a better figure than that, they have only themselves to blame and they need not try to put the blame anywhere else. I am glad the Minister has been able to go ahead now on those figures because it is only in the past 18 months that there was an awareness in rural Ireland of the desirability of having a telephone. Up to then, it was regarded as either a badge of commerce or as a badge of wealth.

Mr. Hilliard

Snobbery.

Mr. Sweetman

I would not quite say that, but it was regarded as a badge of wealth or as a badge for business purposes. The increase in the demand from rural Ireland is an extremely good thing because the more amenities of any sort one can provide in the rural areas, the more likely we shall be to keep people in those areas and the desirability of being able to get a vet for stock, a doctor for humans, or the priest, by telephone is something which, as I say, has only come to be appreciated in the past 18 months as part of a normal routine.

The Minister, I am sure, is inundated from all sides with applications for more connections for subscribers. Every Deputy suffers from the fact that he is being continually pressed by his constituents for the early connection of a telephone services. While I agree entirely that it is better to have a definite plan and not to jump from Billy to Jack all over the place, at the same time, I do not think there is sufficient flexibility in the priority system. There are cases where undoubtedly priorities do exist and where they are not taken into account.

One case that I thought did justify a priority, and the Minister took the view that it did not, was the case of a woman living out in the country whose husband, an Army officer, was sent to the Congo. That seemed to be the type of case where a priority would have been justified, having regard to the fact that her husband was engaged on national service abroad. One always knows that in any priority system, it is difficult to avoid opening the door too far so that every case becomes a priority case, but there should be a little more flexibility in that respect.

I do not know whether I am particularly unlucky with some of these subscriber trunk dialling systems but I never seem to be able to get one of these calls at the first shot. Perhaps it is a bug that runs along this bench because I have heard Deputy Dillon make the same complaint. It frequently arises that it takes me three diallings before I get any sort of appropriate tone at the other end, either a ringing tone or an engaged tone. Whether or not it is because there are not sufficient trunk circuits and the call in consequence gets disrupted halfway through the dialling process I do not know, but I do know it happens with great regularity to me, and I also know from what I hear from my business colleagues that they, too, are finding the same difficulty. Perhaps, the Minister, again as a matter of good public relations, would make it clear why this is happening. It is not that we are dialling the wrong numbers, but it is just happening and the result is maddening.

There are also some complaints in Kildare about the automatic apparatus going out of order at the exchanges. Frankly, I am not a mechanically-minded person at all or an electrically-minded person and I do not understand the principle on which it works but I believe that what happens is that one of the little dials or keys in the machine itself in the exchange sticks. Is there no method by which such a thing could be seen at a glance by the supervisor watching the automatic apparatus? I presume there is a person watching the automatic apparatus in each place, but very often when one dials a number one gets another number and, on reporting the matter to the exchange, one is told a key was stuck. It is fixed straightaway and it seems to be a matter of just flicking the key back into position. Can nothing be done to ensure that when a key is stuck in the wrong place and blocking the free running of the dialling system, it is seen automatically on its own rather than having to wait until it is reported by someone who finds the system unsatisfactory?

Can the Minister tell me is it intended that the system in an area like Kildare will, within a reasonable period, become entirely automatic?

Mr. Hilliard

Yes.

Mr. Sweetman

Is it the intention that the entire automatic substitution for manual exchanges will go on a geographic basis or on the density of telephones in the area either existing or potential, because it would seem to make a considerable difference as to whether it is on the existing density or what the Department visualise as the potential density? There is no doubt whatever that the substitution of the automatic system has been one of the things that has made people more telephone conscious in the rural areas. I think I am right in saying that virtually every subpostmaster is quite glad to be rid of the small telephone exchange which he regards as providing a lot of disturbing work at all hours for very small remuneration. I do not think anyone will be upset by the substitution of the automatic system. They will be delighted to get it.

I am not quite clear from the Minister's statement if his praise of the trunk circuits, whether provided on radio links or microwave circuits, means that it is proposed to substitute that form of trunk circuit altogether for the old cable form between the bigger centres. Perhaps, the Minister would also give us some clarification on that?

I am afraid I do not at all understand why the Minister takes the line that it is difficult to get more than a few schemes started at the same time. I would have thought that it was possible to get as many schemes started at once as you wanted to pay for. Surely it is not that there is such a shortage of skilled staff that it is necessary to defer schemes of that sort?

The Minister today, in reply to a question, gave me the figures of the telephone subscribers per 1,000 population in virtually every country in the world. It was a most comprehensive and illuminating reply and one for which I am much obliged, because it went even further than what I thought would be available. It shows very clearly that we are a long way behind other countries in what I suppose is called density of telephones per population. In fact, some of the differences shocked me very much indeed. That we should have about one quarter as many telephones per 1,000 population as, say, Iceland reflects rather badly on us. Other countries in the Common Market with which we hope shortly to become associates have a density of telephones very, very far ahead of ours.

That must react to some extent on our business capabilities with regard to competition when we are in the Common Market in the near future. I think that, with the exception of Greece and Turkey, there is no European country outside the Iron Curtain that has not got a better density of telephones per population than Ireland. That surprised me very much indeed when I saw the figures. I thought we would be a long way behind Switzerland, Monte Carlo, Lichtenstein and other countries of that sort who do a peculiar kind of company business but it was unknown to me that we were so far behind a place like Iceland and I am sure it would be unknown to most other people. It shows that we have a great deal of leeway to make up.

I want to join with the Minister in congratulating the Savings Committee on the very valuable work done by them. The people in that committee devote a great deal of time and energy to publicising and generally assisting the savings movement. Their organising ability and their work have contributed in no small way to the increase in the amount of savings made through the Minister's Department in the past year.

I was rather intrigued by the apparent change in the average value of postal orders and money orders. I wonder does that arise from any difference in competition fees? I believe competition fees form one of the most lucrative sources of the sale of such orders. Has there been such a change that people are sending large sums of money by postal order, or is it that the very small sums sent by sixpenny postal orders which were intended for competition entry fees have been changed to another figure?

In relation to the telephone service I forgot to mention the difficulty some people have in keeping any check on their telephone expenditure over a period. I do not know if it would be possible to send out monthly accounts for local calls. I know it is possible to get a monthly account for the trunk service but that comes a long time afterwards and ought to be accelerated, if possible. Now that so many long distance calls can be dealt with by the trunk dialling service, it would be an advantage if a system were introduced of monthly statements for local calls since such local calls are now a very large part of one's account.

In that connection, there was, some time back, considerable trouble in one area in Dublin where meters were faulty. Would the Minister make it clear whether that trouble was inherent in one type of meter or was it something that went wrong?

Mr. Hilliard

It was an accident really. A drop of solder caused the whole business.

Mr. Sweetman

It caused a very great deal of heart burning, not merely in the area concerned but among many other people who thought their meters must be wrong. When I made a check on my own meter, I found it was perfectly accurate.

We all got a great shock from the increase in the letter post from three-pence to fourpence, the little budget, as it was correctly described by Deputy Dillon. It is going to mean a very considerable increase in the cost of administering business, a considerable increase in commercial expenses in all forms and one which no one will like. I should have hoped that the Minister, while keeping to the principle of ensuring that this service should run on an even keel, would be able to maintain that even keel by way of productivity rather than by imposing this additional taxation. It is nonsense to say that it it not taxation. Deputy Lemass suggested that because it is payment for a service, it is not taxation, but all taxation is payment for a service of one sort or another.

I want to say a word about Telefís Éireann. We all should accept it that the television authorities in the initial months have had considerable difficulty in operating in the studio building. They have not yet had a fair or clear run in operating the service as it should be operated. On that account, we are prepared to overlook failures that otherwise we would not be prepared to overlook. We must never on that account or on any other account overlook the fact that Telefís Éireann is a national service and must be considered and run as a national service. The prime rôle of the national service is to cater for every part of the community and for all the people in it. Whether Fianna Fáil are in Government, or Fine Gael or any other Party, it must cater for all the people in a fair and even-handed way. The most important thing of all is to ensure in that relation that the output on the television network and on the sound network is commensurate with the strength of the various views in this House because, as Deputy Browne correctly said, they represent the views of the people in that proportion.

To some degree, on occasions, that certainly has not been the case from what I hear from people outside. One of the difficulties from the Deputies' point of view in relation to that is that the reports on the News and in "Today in the Dáil" on both television and sound always take place while we are engaged here and we are not able in consequence to form our own direct opinions. We have to take what we hear from other people. For that reason, there is in that respect alone an overwhelming case to be made that where a Deputy has heard from other people that the report lacked objectivity he ought to be able to see the script of it because by his duties as a Deputy, he is precluded from hearing it himself direct.

I understand that that is not so, that one is not able to see the script at present and I think that is wrong. Because and only because we are precluded through our duties here from forming our own direct opinions, we ought to be able to read the script in the Library or by some other method, as and when Deputies feel they want to verify for themselves reports given to them. I believe also that no matter what Government were in power and if there were that—I shall not use the word "privilege" because I think it should be done as a right—right, that such reports would be made available to members of the Dáil, it would very materially assist in having the objectivity which I think now everyone wishes.

I use the word "now" advisedly because I think the Minister and the Taoiseach realise now themselves how much harm the one-sided performance did on the opening day, that instead of giving them the great build-up for which perhaps they hoped, it boomeranged so that the impression was left in the minds of the people that it was grossly unfair and they held it against both of them ever since.

I said a while ago that I did not purport in any way to be mechanically or electrically-minded. I do not understand such things but I am told by people who do understand them that the replies that have been given by the Minister on the subject of the channels being used by the Television Authority from Mount Leinster are—I shall not use the word that one of these people wrote to the Minister—wrong, shall I say. There does seem to be a very large volume of informed opinion—and by "informed opinion", I mean the opinion of people who are adepts at television and sound broadcasting production—that the decision is entirely wrong. I know one person who has entered into some considerable correspondence with the Minister. That person builds his own sets and I accept and the Minister must accept, when he is so successful in that, that he is a person who knows what he is talking about.

I do not think I am disclosing any secret when I say it was to him the Army went for the purpose of sending out the initial messages to our troops in the Congo, that when in the very beginning it was necessary to effect contact, it was one of the Minister's main critics to whom the Army had to turn for assistance until a more regular channel of communication was established.

Those people believe that the manner in which the channels have been selected inevitably will mean that there will be serious interference in the Kildare area. It seems quite unnecessary that that should be so. I agree that there is bound to be some interference in fringe areas, but while our first duty is to run the station, our second duty must be to try to ensure that we do not become too insular and that we are able in so far as it is possible, without affecting the reliability of the output of our own station, to get outside stations as well. The Minister would be well advised, even at this late stage, to choose other aspects of the channel and positions for consideration rather than the one he has.

Mr. Hilliard

We have the best technical advice we can get.

Mr. Sweetman

That is what I am about to say.

Mr. Hilliard

The top men were asked for advice.

Mr. Sweetman

I am passing no comment on that. The Minister is running a tradition that has always been present in that Department, that is, that nobody outside can ever have any views that are worth while about anything. Will the Minister just calm himself?

Mr. Hilliard

I am not getting excited about it; I am anxious to help. I would take another view if I could but we have the advice of people entirely outside the Department, the engineers who assembled in Stockholm. The frequencies were allocated in agreement with them.

Mr. Sweetman

Is it not strange that, if the Minister had all that technical advice, he would not give it to me across the floor of this House when I asked him for it?

Mr. Hilliard

If I had had it in the file, I would.

Mr. Sweetman

It was in the Minister's brief—he said so himself. He would not give it, and I suggest he would not give it because he was suspicious that it might not be right and he was not going to lay it open. I make the Minister this offer now: make all the technical information available now, so that those who are experts in the field——

Mr. Hilliard

The people who have this kind of advice to offer, and who are very much convinced, should go in and discuss the matter with the people in Telefís Éireann.

Mr. Ryan

The Minister will not take the advice when he is given it. This is the most disgraceful official bumbling.

Mr. Sweetman

I do not understand at all the Minister's reluctance to make this information public, if he has, as he says himself, the best advice he can get.

Mr. Hilliard

I gave all the information I have, all the information available to me.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister has failed to give me the information for which I asked him.

Mr. Hilliard

I answered every question put down.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister said he had not got the information when I asked for it, and he would not give it. If the Minister has suffered a change of heart in that respect, I gladly accept that, and I will put down another question.

Mr. Hilliard

Did I not answer the Deputy's question last week?

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister said quite categorically he would not give the technical information. If he has been converted, if he has suffered a change of heart, I shall be delighted to hear that and I shall be even more delighted to put down a further question and get the information.

The amount that will be expended by the time television is capable of reasonable reception all over the country will be a very, very large sum indeed. Now I am not talking in terms of the £4 licence fee. That does not matter. That is not the size of the sum at all. I am talking of the amount that will be expended. This will be a vested interest in which an immense amount of capital will be tied up. It is vital that the service should be not merely excellent, free from any suspicion of being used as a propaganda machine, but also that its public relations should be such that nobody could point any finger at it. In the long run the only way in which one can get good public relations is by telling people frankly all the facts. Because all the facts have not been disclosed there is grave dissatisfaction in regard to the channel and the wavelength considerations.

Finally, I should like to say a few words about stamps. I do not know whether the Minister still believes it is dishonourable for a nation to endeavour to make money out of philatelic sales.

Mr. Hilliard

I do not believe that at all.

Mr. Sweetman

I am delighted to hear it. It was originally laid down in the Department 30 years ago——

Mr. Hilliard

That is right.

Mr. Sweetman

——and it was a ridiculous point of view. The sad thing is that, though the Minister appears to be converted to the belief that this policy is wrong, he does nothing about it.

Mr. Hilliard

I am doing something about it. The matter is being inquired into at the moment. Of course, I have not got the final say, and the Deputy knows that. The Revenue Commissioners, and other people, are involved.

Mr. Sweetman

I know perfectly well what the position is. The fact of the matter is that, for philatelic purposes, Irish stamps are of little interest and of little value. The Scandinavian report on design was well worthwhile. We want excellent design without question, but we also want a real change of heart on the part of all concerned to make it quite clear that there is nothing derogatory in our national dignity in ensuring that philatelists who want to collect Irish stamps will be able to collect them thereby enabling us to turn an honest penny by selling as many of them as possible.

Mr. Timmons

I should like to join with other Deputies in congratulating the Minister on the presentation of this important Estimate. It is one which affects the life of the community. Some Deputies had some little criticisms to make. I should like to point out that a waiting list of some 10,000 potential telephone subscribers is indicative of the progressive trend of the country generally. I think, perhaps, it would be a good idea if the Department were to evolve a zonal system with regard to the installation of telephones. In my constituency in Dublin North-East I know of cases where people applied for telephones within two or three weeks of one another. The earlier applicants were provided with a service. Those who applied two or three weeks later had to wait as long as six or 12 months. The explanations given were not very satisfactory and it was difficult, indeed, to convince people that there were genuine reasons why some could be provided without delay while others had to wait for a considerable period. Where new housing schemes are in course of erection there should be some co-ordination between the local authority and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs with regard to the provision of a telephone service.

I should like to support the pleas made in regard to the increased charges. Subpostmasters in busy city offices are overworked and poorly paid. If the increased charges will mean some amelioration in their conditions no one will cavil. I should also like to join with those Deputies who praised the work of the Savings Committee. Magnificent work is being done in inducing people to save not alone for the benefit of themselves but for the benefit of the country as a whole. Perhaps, the Minister would consider providing better facilities for those who invest money in the Post Office Savings Bank. There are probably practical difficulties. Some of the rules and regulations are out of date and bear no relation to a modern society. If a person wants to get, say, £30 out of the Savings Bank, he must give a month's notice. Some peculiar condition has to be complied with before he can get his money out. If it comes within the scope of the Minister's powers, some thought should be given to providing extra facilities, even to the extent of providing limited cheque facilities to depositors when a certain amount is lodged in the Bank.

The question of Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann has been adverted to by many Deputies. I should like to congratulate the Television Authority on the magnificent strides they have made in providing services. They are very much appreciated in Dublin and I am glad to hear the comments of country Deputies that they are widely appreciated there, too. I do not agree with the remarks of Opposition members about the opening night. It was not a political broadcast. It was the introductory programme and it was only right that our President should speak and that the Taoiseach and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs should also make contributions. I have not received any criticism. I do not know why the Opposition are so peeved they had not a place in the programme. I am sure there will be an opportunity for them when we get down to the question of political broadcasts, which I understand is under discussion.

I should like to praise the sorting and delivery staffs of the Post Office for the efficient service they render in Dublin city. Their hours are very awkward—some of them have to start at 5.30 a.m.—and I have seen them making their way to their offices in all kinds of weather. Some of them have no means of transport and it is a measure of their attachment to duty that they arrive promptly and carry out their duties so efficiently. They are not so well paid either and if there is anything the Minister can do to improve their conditions, I am sure the public generally will approve of it.

Mr. Ryan

I was glad to hear Deputy Timmons's reference to the desirability of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs installing at the time of erection of building schemes the necessary telephone lines and equipment. The experience in Dublin is that, while other public services, such as the E.S.B. and the Dublin Gas Company, put in their services at the time a housing scheme is being built, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs wait for some considerable time before putting in their installations. The only blemish on my own roadway is one caused by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, which not once but at least on four occasions in six years have had occasion to dig a large hole, which I am very much aware of because it is right in front of my own house. On each occasion they have dug it they have laid bare the roots of a tender young tree. While all the other trees have appeared to prosper and grow, this unfortunate little ash, which undisturbed could grow on a heap of coal, is wilting away. That is only one of the ways in which they are spoiling the neighbourhood. The extra cost entailed in ripping up the concrete surface must be considerable.

Mr. Corish

They replace it with good concrete.

Mr. Ryan

Well, if I have to argue from the general to the particular, the concrete replaced outside my house is sinking rapidly and is certainly not of the same standard as put in by the builder. I have never complained because I think public money could be used in some other way, but it is certainly of a very poor standard. This is happening in many places. I have not any particular grouse and I am simply reciting this case as one of which I have particular knowledge.

The Minister indicated earlier this evening he was not refusing to give the information which he said was given to him to justify the allocation of television channels as has been decided upon. I would point out that the Minister on page 3 of his recent statement says: "I do not propose to go into the technical reasons for the assignment to particular stations of the frequencies allotted to us." Here in this House, when pressed by Deputy Sweetman and myself on another occasion when we had a number of questions and later when pressed by me on a Motion for the Adjournment, the Minister declined to give the reasons.

It must be clear to the people now, if it was not clear already, that the Minister will not give the reasons because, if he did, those with technical knowledge could show that the reasons were wrong. I now repeat with conviction—and the Minister's conduct has condemned himself—that the Department are deliberately trying to cut out any television reception from abroad. This is being done for narrowminded purposes, and the Minister deserves all the blame and odium which will fall on his head and that of his Party for doing what is so unnecessary.

The Minister on previous occasions has tried to confuse the issue or make the issue unduly complicated by the recitation of a certain amount of technical data. On the last occasion I raised this matter he referred to the proposal to broadcast on a number of new channels in the north-east corner of the country. He shook his head and said with a smirk: "Maybe Deputy Ryan did not know that before he made his proposals." Deputy Ryan did not know the details but he learned them from the Minister. I have had all the information the Minister has given submitted to three different technical advisers and they all say there is nothing whatever in what the Minister has said so far to justify the allocation of particular channels in the way in which the Minister wants to do it.

The Minister is trying to blame the decisions of the Stockholm Conference; he is trying to blame outside authorities and to say that we are controlled by circumstances beyond our ken in the allocation of channels. That is not strictly accurate, and the Minister knows that well. We have a number of channels available to us and we can use them freely in whatever manner we want, subject to advising our neighbours wherever there is likely to be a conflict within the neighbour's area. But, outside of that, there is nothing whatever to prevent us allotting the channels in a different way. If the Minister took the simple step of allotting the Kilkenny channel to Cork and the Cork channel to Kilkenny, the people of Dublin and Kildare and those south-west of the city would continue to enjoy what they at present enjoy: a selection of three programmes. The Minister and his advisers have tried to ridicule the reception available from any station other than Telefís Éireann. It is like a person whose own property is abused and whose defence is: "It might be ugly but it is my own."

The people of Dublin were perfectly satisfied with the reception they were getting before the Minister interfered and they do not want that interference. What they are asking is that the Minister will leave them alone. It is completely unnecessary for him to interfere with them. It is not as bad as all that because if it were we would not have the Dublin newspapers, night after night, giving as much prominence to the foreign programmes as to the local one and suggesting that people look at them for particular items. There is no need whatsoever for the Department to do anything. Therefore, the reasons for this interference are mean and despicable and it is good for the country to know what the Minister and his officials can do wrong deliberately and through incompetence, and we have a classic example of executive incompetence and deliberate malice, a mixture of both——

An Ceann Comhairle

Whatever is allocated, the Minister is responsible for it and not the officials.

Mr. Ryan

I know the Minister is head of the administration.

Mr. Hilliard

There is not a word of truth in what he says.

Mr. Ryan

If there was not truth in what my advisers are saying——

Mr. Hilliard

If I wanted advice I would go to a good lawyer for it and act upon it.

Mr. Ryan

If it were not true the Minister would be giving all the technical data. He would put the whole thing on the table so as to convince the doubting Thomases. The Minister has failed to do that and he has only himself to blame. The Minister has seen to it that the Radio Dealers' Association have accepted that the Department are doing their best. I do not blame the gentlemen for saying that. Their living depends on being able to sell television sets and if the public are really worried about the Minister depriving them of the two programmes they now have, the sales of television sets and the number of people renting sets will fall.

I know several people are threatening to throw their sets back at the Minister and not pay the licence. Whether or not they will do that I do not know. Perhaps the number doing it will be small but the number of people who will take new sets will be severely limited. Radio dealers are accordingly not to blame for taking this quietly. I had the opportunity of looking at one of the few programmes I have time to look at recently and I saw on "Broadsheet" four people discussing this very problem. I was cynically amused to discover among them two advisers to the Minister, one of them a radio dealer who said the Department were doing their best. One independent journalist had the courage to stand out and criticise the Minister.

What is even more despicable is that an effort has been made to quieten the people who are critical of the Minister in this respect. I understand that the degree of hospitality bestowed on television journalists and radio dealers in Montrose is something one would want to see and consume to believe. That is despicable and the public should be told about it. There was great clamour about this some time ago and the present lack of clamour would appear to suggest that it has been bought off. I am not disappointed that I did not get an invitation to go there. Those who send them out might have known that I would not accept it had I got it.

This is a despicable act on the part of the Minister and if the people of Dublin resent it he deserves all the blame. There are thousands of people, the majority of them working class, in Dublin who have over the past few years invested as much as £100, £120 or £130 each in the acquisition of television sets in order to be able to enjoy the programmes then available to them—a choice of two programmes. If they had not invested their money then and if there had not been 100,000 sets there would not be a Telefís Éireann service in the country now.

Mr. Hilliard

We would be all on the 625 line service.

Mr. Ryan

The Minister for Finance would not have attempted to float an Irish television service, if he had not had a certain market of 100,000 licensees. Otherwise, we would be like the BBC starting out in the 1930's depending on a few wealthy people to finance a service. The tax-payer here would not have tolerated it. It is because the poor, who had not got the money for more expensive forms of entertainment, invested in television sets that an Irish television service has become possible. Yet the Minister has now taken away from those people the very thing that encouraged them to get their sets in the first instance.

Another matter in relation to television I have been asked to mention is the practice under which a television licence, if taken out on the last day of a month, is good for only 11 months. Apparently there is some regulation—I doubt if it is written into any Act, and if it is, I should be glad if the Minister would point it out to me—whereby a licence taken out in any month is renewable on the last day of the previous month in the following year. For instance, a licence taken out on 27th February, 1962, will expire on 31st January, 1963, thereby depriving the holder of one month's television viewing. That appears to be unfair and since the annual fee is £4, such a person should surely get a rebate in respect of the month not allowed to him under the present system.

I would ask the Minister to look into that question and try to remedy it. After all, £4 is a very large sum for a working person who is not in the habit of producing a sum like that at once. He finds it hard enough to pay his two-monthly electricity account. The licence fee becomes a particular burden because it has to be paid in a lump sum. People would prefer to pay it in four quarterly amounts, even if they had to pay as much as 22/6d. a quarter, thus adding an extra 10/- per year. People do not mind paying a little extra so long as they are able to pay it in instalments. The Department would lose very little by collecting it in that way.

The Minister should make an attempt to solve some of the problems in the telephone service in the interests of both the public and those operating the service. The majority of staff in our exchanges are courteous and efficient and extremely helpful but there is a small minority who, due to pressure of duties, are just a bit short with members of the public. It happens that the public make complaints and do not get satisfaction, and while one is always inclined to become angry when one is not getting satisfaction, the annoyance appears to be heightened at the end of a telephone line. The annoyance seems to burn up at both ends.

When a member of the public makes a complaint to the Department, he invariably gets a letter saying that the identity of the operator cannot be traced because there are perhaps 90 people operating the exchange in Dublin at night-time. The situation then arises that some person who has given very bad service, who has been badmannered towards a member of the public, goes scot-free, the entire night team of operators gets the blame and the member of the public gets no satisfaction.

There is a system whereby if a person phones a wrong number, an electric tape shows that it is a wrong number and that the person should make inquiries or consult the Directory. I wonder is there any technical difficulty in attaching to each telephone apparatus in the exchange a record which would identify to the caller the number of the operator? If there are 90 sets of equipment and 90 people each with his set numbered and if the operator were to announce the number of the apparatus being used it would be easy to trace the identity of any operator. In that way the public might get some satisfaction. There have been occasions when members of the public have been very badly served by a very small minority and it is in the interests of the telephone staff and of the public that such incidents should be avoided in future.

On a number of occasions in this House I have raised the question of the terrible delay that occurs when phoning the exchange at night-time in Dublin. I am not too certain of the figure which the Minister gave me but I think he counted a number of seconds as the average delay. When I did some checking on this I found that if the Minister's figure were correct, my phone was answered by the exchange in many cases some minutes before I even range the exchange. I got a number of other people to check also. I am always nervous of statistics, particularly when they emanate from a Government Department and I am afraid the name of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in relation to statistics is extremely bad.

There are not enough staff on duty on telephone exchanges in Dublin at night-time. The times that I have to make trunk calls are few and far between but it must be exasperating for those, particularly country Deputies, who have frequent occasion to make calls. The service is far from good and I would ask the Minister to improve it.

Another example of atrocious conduct on the part of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs has been referred to earlier today and I should like to endorse what was said. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs is operating a monopoly but that does not relieve it of the obligation to be courteous. Where a dispute arises in connection with an account and is in course of being negotiated and finally settled, it is just not good enough for the Department to discontinue the service to a subscriber who has been a saisfactory customer and has paid all accounts over a period of about 40 years. Yet, that is what has happened within the past couple of months and that is why I put down a question to the Minister yesterday.

There might have been some dispute regarding the precise dates on which complaints were made but I am not concerned with whether or not a complaint was made one day, seven days or 20 days after the receipt of an account. Where a person is known to be a satisfactory customer the service should not be peremptorily discontinued even after the issue of a seven days' notice, particularly where it is a large concern which is involved because the principal may be the person who is most inconvenienced and he, in the first instance, on receipt of the account, may have passed it to some member of the staff. That member of the staff may have to check records of trunk calls and some days may easily elapse before the matter can reach the Department. When a reminder would come in regarding the account, it is probably some member of the staff who would process the correspondence, and not the principal. It is the height—or should I say the depths?—of bad manners to discontinue without some special or final notice a service which has been made available to a subscriber of very good standing and excellent credit for decades.

The isolated incident to which I referred is only an illustration of what is happening all over the place. I suppose there is hardly any member of this House who has not from time to time been made aware of peremptory discontinuance of service by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. It is simply not good enough. The Minister should take steps to ensure that people are dealt with in a more courteous manner.

Of course, disputes will arise. To-day the Minister spoke about some mistakes arising because a piece of solder fell upon a piece of equipment in a telephone exchange. That is the first time the Minister said that. I do not know whether or not he was referring to the Dundrum exchange which was in issue here last year when it became apparent that several subscribers had been grossly overcharged for several months. Notwithstanding that, any person who complained had the service discontinued; had charges imposed on him for the restoration of the service; got rude, uncivil and bad mannered notes from the Department and he got personal criticism from the Minister here in this House. That is atrocious conduct. It is about time the Department behaved as any private individual providing a service would be expected to behave. If the Department had not a monoply, it certainly could not afford to do that kind of thing.

I do not agree with all the people in this House who regard the extension of the telephone service and the increased demand for telephones as a sign of a desire for efficiency in the country. I think the desire for telephones is an indication of our national laziness, slovenliness of mind and bad manners because in many businesses, certainly where a person is providing a personal service, the telephone is no longer an instrument of efficiency. Rather than increasing production, it is reducing production. The Department should teach people how to use the phone and when not to use the phone at all. At the beginning of this century the Irish Christian Brothers produced a book called Christian Politeness, which told the young people at that time how to sit at table, how to eat, how to speak, how to write letters, how to address people, how to conduct themselves at dances, how to get in and out of tramcars, how to ride bicycles according as young ladies and gentlemen should. It is a pity that a modern edition of this publication is not available. I should like to see it rewritten with a special chapter on how to use the telephone.

If the telephone is to be an instrument of efficiency the first rule should be that the person answering a call should identify himself by giving his telephone number and his identity and immediately thereafter the person making the call should identify himself. What we get is a series of "Hello, Hello. Is that so-and-so?" This goes on for 30 or 40 seconds. In very many cases, people who ring up firms refuse to identify themselves.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Minister responsible for that?

Mr. Ryan

Yes. It is up to him to see that the telephone is used properly.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is not responsible for subscribers——

Mr. Ryan

If the telephone is not used properly, then we are badly using capital equipment and a position will come about like that of our neighbour across the water, who wants to charge for the length of telephone calls——

An Ceann Comhairle

The responsibility is very tenuous, so far as the Minister is concerned.

Mr. Ryan

It is no more tenuous than is any conversation on the telephone.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not make it relevant.

Mr. Ryan

It helps to prove a point I want to make, namely, that the telephone is an instrument of inefficiency because when people use it carelessly and recklessly for business purposes some unfortunate person in business has to record the garbled conversation of some person at the other end of the telephone who is too lazy to write a letter in the first place.

Therefore, I am at a loss to understand this talk about the telephone being necessary for efficiency. How on earth can it be more efficient to occupy two people on the telephone for fifteen minutes than to write letters which could be written in three minutes?

If we are to help to increase productivity it is up to the Minister to advise people on the proper use of the telephone. The front page or the cover of a Directory should be read. The use of other media would I think assist people in the proper use of the telephone. Otherwise, several subscribers will throw back their telephones at the Department, as I have known a number of people to do, because it is becoming a pest.

The more efficient a person is, the more he desires to concentrate on what he is doing, and the more he should be left alone but when the monster invader on his desk keeps interrupting him his productivity will seriously be in peril. Therefore, in the national interest and from the point of view of the Department, it is desirable to ensure that telephones are properly used.

I should like to refer back to the Department itself for one moment. This happened to myself. I wrote to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs about my own installation. To this day, I have not received a written acknowledgment from the Department. The Department telephoned me to acknowledge my letter and to say that the matter which I sought to have done would be attended to. That is downright bad manners.

If the Department get a communication in writing, they should reply in writing. Perhaps the reason the Department of Posts and Telegraphs acknowledge communications by telephone is that then there is no visible record of their having received the document originally. I think that is atrocious behaviour on the part of any Department. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs convey post as well as telephones. If a person chooses to communicate with them in one medium then that is the medium which should be used by them when replying.

I shall now drift away for a moment to another aspect of the Department's conduct. I want to refer to the purchasing end of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. As we all know, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is in the main the contracting Department of the State. From time to time, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs advertise inviting tenders from people for the supply of certain goods. To the people so tendering, the Department issue a document called Notice to Persons Tendering. On that notice there is a form of tender which people are asked to fill.

There is in existence, in relation to these tenders, what I consider to be a really mean and despicable act on the part of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. If it were done by an ordinary businessman, he would be hounded out of business by his colleagues. When a person is tendering for the supply of goods he is required to say on the tender where the goods will be manufactured. What the Department of Posts and Telegraphs are doing in many cases is going behind the backs of the people tendering and buying the goods direct, once they have picked the brains of the person tendering to supply the goods.

Once the Department have found out where the goods can be got they do the extremely shabby thing of approaching the manufacturers or the original suppliers, thereby denying to the person who gave them the information the legitimate profit to which he is reasonably entitled. That is an extremely low trick. I find it hard to command words to condemn that practice which would be permitted by the Ceann Comhairle. If I used the words on the telephone which are suitable to describe this practice I should be prosecuted under the Telephone Act for using such language.

If that practice does not cease, then some members of the House will have to take further steps to ensure that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, a State body, will respect the ordinary practice of legitimate business and will not engage in that kind of shabby conduct. We are all as anxious as any taxpayer that goods will be purchased at the lowest possible price but I do not think the Department should have to resort to such despicable methods in order to get value for the people.

There are many other items upon which one could speak but I think they have been sufficiently laboured already. Suffice it to say that in some respects this Department needs much improvement. I do not think we shall get the improvement under the present Administration—not entirely due to the Minister but due to the general lassitude of the whole Government. However, where they deserve to be condemned for all time is in relation to their mishandling of the allocation of television channels, when they had virgin territory, as it were, when they had available to them a number of channels, when they could have rearranged them within the State and when they deliberately did otherwise.

The Minister's protests so far that he is not doing this are so loud as to cause us to distrust what he has said. The only way in which he can dispel the criticisms levelled against him is to give the fullest information in this House or elsewhere. If he does not wish to broadcast it then, if he gives it to me, I shall give it to the people who have advised me and I shall ask them to treat it in confidence—

Mr. Hilliard

I gave it already.

Mr. Ryan

——and only to disclose it to the public in the event of there being a clash of opinion. The Minister has not accepted the challenge that he ought to give the full technical data. It is easy for the Minister and for me to talk about this thing in a general way. There is only one way of testing it, that is, to make available to the public full technical data, not merely to the Wireless Dealers' Association or other gentlemen being wined at Montrose. Make it available to the public or to anyone who wants to examine it and then, after a thorough investigation, if it is found that the Minister is right, I shall be the first to stand up and apologise. At the moment the Minister's conduct only incites me to criticise him further, although, personally, I have no desire to do that but, as long as the Minister is doing wrong, he can expect the criticism to continue.

Mr. Kyne

We have had two extremes in the two Deputies who have just spoken. We had a Deputy on the Fianna Fáil side who could see nothing wrong in the Department and who, even when he suggested improvements, felt he had to assure the House that the Minister had some difficulty when he could not carry out those improvements. Then we had Deputy Ryan and I fear nobody will disagree when I say that, in his case, the Minister could do no right. That is a pity because the Department gives very good service. I should like any comments I make to be taken in the spirit or trying to get the faults I find remedied, but not in any carping spirit or spirit of antagonism against the Minister or his Department. The definite attack and the fulsome praise are helpful neither to the Minister nor to those who work under him.

I intend to press very strongly for more rapid telephone installation, but I understand that in his opening speech, which I had not the privilege of hearing, the Minister gave reasons why it was not possible to proceed with installations at present and that, in fact, it would seriously handicap the service given at present and be of no great advantage to those getting quick installation. I suggest, however, there are certain groups who should get priority. Perhaps they do. On occasion, I have requested the Minister to examine cases of aged couples living at long distances from the nearest habitation. Their only means of getting in touch with a priest or doctor or anybody else in an emergency is by telephone. But I got the same answer, whether they were aged 70 or 21. I suggest the Minister should make some regulation whereby after investigation of such cases, if other things are equal, such applicants should come before those who cannot show the same urgent need.

I know there is a priority basis for business people and that is right. If it is essential to a businessman or an employer to carry on his business, he is much more entitled to get a telephone than a person who wants it possibly for social or pleasure purposes.

I must support Deputy Sweetman in regard to mail posted in London and its delivery in Ireland compared with 25 years ago. A letter posted at 6 p.m. in London was delivered in Dungarvan about 9 p.m. the next morning, 25 years ago. Now that we have speeded up things by flying the mail across, at the very best, it arrives at 5 o'clock on the following evening in Dungarvan and normally does not arrive until the second day. If that is progress, I suggest we should go back to the old system of transporting mail by train and surface vessels. Perhaps the new system is an advantage to Dublin, but Dublin city comprises only one-sixth of the population and the other five-sixths have their rights. In proportion to population, they have five times more right to have letters quickly delivered.

This is purely a local matter in Dungarvan, where I live or rather in a suburb of Dungarvan. The earliest delivery there is at 10.30 or 11 o'clock in the morning. That delivery is not suitable. People expect to get their mail at a reasonable time. It is not a country area; it is within the urban area of Dungarvan. The mail arrives, I understand, in Dungarvan about 7.30 a.m. Sorting takes some time but it seems unreasonable that within a half-mile of the post office, the mail cannot be delivered any earlier than two hours after leaving the office. That has been commented on by the urban council and local businessmen and others. They have always received the reply that the matter is being investigated and the Department would do what they could. To use a Dáil term, I am afraid we must report no progress in the matter.

I should like to know if it is true that the Department have purchased a site in Dungarvan for a new post office. I have not the slightest objection to a new post office because if something is not done, the present one will fall down on the employees and the unfortunate people who happen to be there. If rumour is right—and I have only rumour—a site has been purchased for a very fine price of something in the neighbourhood of £3,500. More luck to the person who sold it to the Board of Works for the Department for that figure, if that is true, but I should like to ask, how the Minister can justify that, in view of the fact that the local authority offered quite as good a site, much more central and absolutely free of encumbrances, for less than £1,000? My information may not be correct—that the price paid is five times more than that asked by the local authority for a better site. I should be interested in any information the Minister could give when he is replying.

Coming from the south, the middle of County Waterford, I have no experience of Telefís Éireann or any other television because we are in the part of the country where reception is not worth the trouble of installing a set; but we have sound radio which is of about the same value, as a service, as Telefís Éireann would give us. We know Radio Éireann operates; we read of it in the newspapers, but when you switch it on, it is accompanied by mains hum and is squeezed out by other stations. Only at select moments of select days can you get any reception at all.

I understand the G.P.O. has a service to survey interference, particularly E.S.B. interference, which it is suggested causes this defect in reception. How does one go about getting that service? I have approached the E.S.B. and suggested that the main lines might be overhauled or that there are loose connections or that it is causing interference in other ways. They say it is not their business: their business is to maintain light. That is true, I expect, but I should like the Minister to say how do a group of licence holders get service from Radio Éireann or its officials which will eliminate all interference? If the Minister would give me some idea, I would endeavour to follow it up and find out how efficient the Post Office will be in discovering those responsible for the interference.

Like most of the Deputies on both sides of the House, I should like to appeal to the Minister on behalf of auxiliary postmen. I know the stock answer from previous Ministers in all Governments was that an auxiliary postman does not have to work a full day and that he can get another job in the afternoon. That is quite true —he can, if he is lucky, get another job—but he must be available to the Post Office on six days out of every seven and be available at a certain time. He cannot just say to them: "Well, look; I have a better job today than my job with the Post Office. I will be back here tomorrow." He will have to turn up to his Post Office duties each day. Were it not for the fact that, due to the scarcity of employment, the Post Office have been able to recruit what, to my mind, is practically scab labour, they would have been forced to pay decent wages to these men. I do not suggest it is scab labour from the point of view of trade unionism. I suggest economic circumstances have forced people living in country areas to accept positions as auxiliary postmen and carry out a responsible job in a worthwhile manner in all types of weather at a wage which is totally inadequate.

Not only that, but having given 40 or perhaps 50 years good service, and in some cases, given their lives in carrying out their duties, at the end they are awarded, not with a pension or a gratuity of any great amount, but with a simple certificate to say that "The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs thinks you were a good and loyal servant", and they can hang it up in the drawing-room, if they have a drawing-room. They are worth more than that and some effort should be made to see that their standard of payment is increased. At the end of a period of loyal service their services should be recognised in some more tangible way than by a certificate handed out from the G.P.O. in Dublin.

I shall finish as I started, by paying a compliment to the people who compose the staff of the Post Office from the highest to the lowest, and to the most efficient service they give. Criticism has been expressed in regard to telephonists and their short replies, but I can imagine if any of us spent eight to ten hours at a switchboard, being harassed by constant callers, each thinking he is the only one and the most important one and each expecting to get the quickest service and not have to wait in a queue, then being human beings, when things go wrong, we would be snappy and surly. If we were not, we would not be human at all. We all of us have our faults and I think, by and large, the service given by the Post Office authorities, by its employees and officials, cannot be measured in words of praise. Let us just think of Christmas time when millions of packets and millions of letters are rushed out in the last few days and practically all arrive in time to carry the Christmas greeting of the sender.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

My purpose in rising to speak on this Estimate is to draw the Minister's attention to one or two matters to which I feel it should be directed. I should like to avail of the opportunity to say that, from my experience, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is discharging his duties with distinction and credit. Unlike many of his colleagues in the Government, he is known for his courtesy and civility. It is only right that an observation of that kind should be made to let the Minister see that some of us, whose everyday job it is to be in contact with him concerning some problem or other in our constituencies appreciate the courtesy and civility he has shown to such representations since his appointment as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

I expect that some time during this debate reference was made to the fact that we have passed through what was probably the hardest winter in a hundred years. During that winter, which I may say still prevails, and since 10th of October last, we have had more storms than we have had in any year in living memory. It must be borne in mind that a great deal of the storm damage was done to telephone poles, wires and to the telephone service in general and I want to add my voice to the voices of Deputies who, I am sure, have referred to this already in paying tribute to the Engineering Section of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs who have so efficiently dealt with the many breakdowns which could have had serious consequences in severing business connections and isolating districts from the city and causing grave difficulties throughout the length and breadth of the country.

The Engineering Section of the Department have, during those storms, snowstorms and high winds, been working overtime. The chaos which they averted so efficiently and speedily is something which should be noted with satisfaction and with gratitude in this House. The Department's Engineering Section have certainly helped to ease the circumstances brought about by bad weather and I might say from my experience in the midlands, that they did a very good job with great efficiency and speed.

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the unsatisfactory state of affairs prevailing in his Department, which has been referred to already, in relation to telephones. Up to recently, we were told that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs was the one Department paying its way. However, this story has now changed. Many people are anxious to avail of the telephone service and I cannot see how it is outside the scope of the engineering people—and may I say some of the most highly qualified engineers in the world today are associated with our engineering section—to devise some speedier system for the installation of telephones.

I do not accept the Minister's explanation. I believe he is sincere in giving it, but I, for one, am not prepared to accept it. People are anxious to avail of the service and we have reached the stage at which a telephone is a necessity in every house. I hope arrangements will be made by the Department to embark on a five year plan for the provision of a telephone in every house in rural Ireland which requires one. Every farmer throughout the length and breadth of the country knows that a telephone is a time-saver, that it is very efficient and that it is something he should have.

For example, if his machinery breaks down, he will not have to clean himself up, get out his car and go into town. He can telephone his mechanic from his home. Most farmers realise now that a telephone is essential equipment which they want and for which they are prepared to pay. That is why I think every effort should be made to embark upon a policy—such as the policy of the E.S.B. in regard to rural electrification—to bring a telephone to every house that wants one.

I fail to understand why, from the ordinary point of view, when telephone wires pass through a district and we are told by people connected with the Post Office that very little, if any, inconvenience would be caused to anyone, an additional two, three or four telephones cannot be provided in the area. I know that in my constituency I have information which is reliable, and on which I can depend—I am not prepared to disclose the source of the information—that if an instruction were given from Dublin, the engineering section in Laois and Offaly could install a number of telephones in 24 hours. They cannot at the moment because the approval has not been given from Dublin.

I agree with Deputy Kyne about the priority system. Everyone knows that doctors, clergy and solicitors are given priority, but agricultural inspectors are not on the priority list. Farmers seek their advice and are anxious to contact them with speed and efficiency, but we are told that agricultural inspectors are not given preference in regard to telephones. The county committee of agriculture of which I am a member has been pressing the Department to provide all agricultural inspectors in the county with telephones and our applications have been under consideration for a long time.

Other professional people are provided with telephones and are on the priority list, but agricultural instructors are not, professional people though they are. I feel that their professional status is far more important in the country today than some of the legal men. They should be the first to be provided with telephones. Their advice is being sought now more than ever before because the committees of agriculture have been encouraging farmers to seek it, but much time is wasted because of overlapping caused by a lack of telephones. If the agricultural instructors were provided with telephones, it would save time, add to the efficiency of their work, and be of general service to the farmers who now have to go to the local post office to contact them late at night and early in the morning at their homes or hotels.

The Minister for Agriculture must at some time have seen fit to make some representations to the Minister on this matter. It is a disgrace that the agricultural instructors are not provided with telephones, before anyone else, except doctors. It may be of little importance to people in large towns and cities whether or not the agricultural instructors have telephones, but those of us who represent rural constituencies know quite well the value and importance of their work. The Minister should do some stocktaking in this matter and see to it that when an agricultural inspector applies for a telephone, it is provided with the least possible delay.

There are a number of post offices in the country in which there is a public telephone but no kiosk, and the person who wants to make a call must make it in the hearing of anyone who cares to buy a halfpenny stamp. Regulations in that regard should be laid down, no matter what the cost. A person making a telephone call is entitled to privacy, and he should not be in the embarrassing position of having to stand in a post office and hold his telephone conversation in the presence of anyone who has a halfpenny to purchase a stamp. There should be a degree of privacy for people who want to make calls and are not anxious to have their business broadcast through the whole parish.

I should like to add my voice to what has been said on behalf of the subpostmasters. I would ask the Minister to review their position sympathetically and to change the attitude of his Department. The Minister's job is to listen to his advisers but he is not bound to act in the manner they advise. Government policy in general in relation to subpostmasters, their conditions of employment, status and pay, is entirely wrong. The Minister should say to his officials: "Put that into effect forthwith. Whatever your views are, these are my views." Their terms of employment and pay should be brought into line with the importance of the positions they occupy.

We all know they are responsible for the post offices, for the heating and cleaning of the offices. They have to pay the old age pensions, children's allowances and widows' pensions. They have a very difficult job and they are always subject to the inspections which are carried out by the Department—and probably with some degree of necessity. They have to be careful that they have the right amount of cash in hands. They have a very responsible job and only people with the best type of qualifications are regarded as persons who can be in charge of sub-offices. That is why I say they are not half-paid for the responsible positions they hold.

Their responsibility is very great. They are handling public money and, naturally enough, when they are not sufficiently paid themselves there is a great degree of temptation thrown in their way. We are told that the judges must be paid in order to keep them on the straight and narrow path but subpostmasters are more inclined to go off the straight and narrow path because of their economic circumstances and poor salaries. Frequently severe action has to be taken against them. That is because of the poor rates paid to them. I hope the Minister will take steps to have a complete review of the whole position and I am glad to know that he has shown a change of heart in recent months.

This is a section of the community that has been neglected ever since the foundation of the State and if the Minister will take steps to see that their status is improved and their standard of living and conditions of employment bettered he will have the thanks and gratitude of a section of the community that is rendering excellent service to the public.

I will ask the Minister to carry out a survey to discover where telephone kiosks can be erected in rural Ireland. Representations are frequently made to the Minister by local authorities to secure telephone kiosks and the answer generally is that the kiosk would not pay its way. We do not expect them to pay their way but the general body of taxpayers are entitled to a public service. Has the Minister ever examined the situation in the Six Counties? On the main roads and link roads there, there appear to be many more telephone kiosks than we find on our main roads here with the exception of those provided by the Automobile Association. Their telephone service is very good and they are to be complimented on the manner in which they have provided them.

The auxiliary postmen, like the subpostmasters, form a section of the community that has long been neglected. They do a very difficult job in all sorts of weather and no Government have treated them properly iu the past. I think the Minister is rather niggardly when it comes to making an allowance from his special fund to those old postmen who are without gratuity or pension. The Minister's special fund is one from which money is made available where there are conditions of severe hardship and from it the auxiliary postmen should be given, not a certificate, but a cheque in recognition of their services.

Mr. Hilliard

That fund is administered——

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

No matter who administers the fund, they should be more generous with it. The Minister should make better provision in his estimate for this purpose. These men work day in, day out, year in, year out and there is nothing for them at the end of their service but a certificate of thanks. I hope the Minister will examine this matter. The Minister has the Minister for Finance to deal with but it is time that most Ministers realised their responsibilities in this matter.

With regard to Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann, I wonder if any statistics have been taken throughout the country of the particular times at which our people listen to "Housewive's Choice" from the BBC and the times at which they listen to Radio Éireann? In every town or village that you go into you find that they listen to the news from Radio Éireann and then turn over to the BBC. I would like a census to be taken of the stations to which they listen in the evening time. From my experience, no matter what house you go into in the Midlands after the news in the evening time you will find them listening to Radio Luxem bourg.

Mr. Corish

They must be a cultured crowd.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

That is a matter for themselves. If they turn on Radio Éireann they will hear something in Irish, or something that they will not understand or something that is not to their taste. I am not impressed by the programmes from Radio Éireann. I feel they are not living in a modern age. We are now living in an age when the programmes put on by Radio Luxembourg and the BBC have a greater appeal to the general public than those from Radio Éireann. We are lagging behind them all the time. I wonder why so much of Radio Éireann time is taken up by programmes in Irish, talks in Irish and various other matters which have no appeal and do not attract the people to listen to them? It is not considered enough to have the news in Irish. Whoever is responsible for editing the news in Irish does a very good job indeed. The Irish used is simple; it can be understood and it is an education to follow the news in Irish. The announcers who broadcast the news in Irish, whoever they may be, speak clearly and slowly and put it over with very good results. It is only right when it is a general opinion that these people are doing a good job that they should be complimented on it. No matter how limited a Deputy's knowledge of Irish may be, the news broadcasts are framed in such a way as to be easily understood, and the translation back into English can also be very clearly followed. Should we not leave it at that and not use the radio for other purposes in this regard? If we had a little more of what the people want and a little less of what they do not understand and what they do not like, it might be better.

The Minister must try to meet the tastes of the people. There may be a difference between Deputy Corish's ideas and my ideas of the people's cultural standards but we are now living in 1962. We cannot bring the people back to 30 or 40 years ago. People have different ideas and different tastes. What suited our grandfathers and grandmothers will not suit us.

Mr. Corish

What comes from Radio Luxembourg does not belong to 40 years ago. It is out of this world.

Mr. Allen

They are not listening to Luxembourg.

Mr. Corish

Deputy Flanagan, at any rate would not listen to Luxembourg.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I have been called many things in my lifetime but I cannot say I have ever been called a critic or a connoisseur of music. I know that music is the expression through sound of a variety of emotions, anger, love, hatred, and so on. I remember hearing that at a lecture on music given by Mr. Brian Boydell, and needless to say, it was not through the medium of Radio Éireann.

Mr. Corish

Did the Deputy like it?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I did. Mr. Brian Boydell is probably one of our greatest authorities on music.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would the Deputy come back to the Estimate?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Probably at another time and in a more appropriate place, I shall get down to the finer points of music. In regard to Telefís Éireann, as the service is only in its infancy, we ought not to offer criticism until it has had an opportunity to gain experience. There was a lot of talk as to whether the country could or could not afford it. The position again is that we are living in modern times and whether we can afford it or not, it is a service we must have in order to keep in line with the rest of the world.

Telefís Éireann, apart from the first disastrous night when we saw nothing but the Taoiseach, have been doing a very good job. The less of the Taoiseach, the President, and the Fianna Fáil Party we see on it, the better and the more balanced it will be. To offer criticism at this stage, however, would be unwarranted, as the service has been in operation only since 31st December. The programmes they have put on since then have met with general satisfaction and the people responsible deserve to be complimented. Let us wait for a couple of years before we offer any criticism.

However, there is one matter in connection with Telefís Éireann on which I wish to comment. I cannot understand why the Television Authority accepted tenders for steel masts which had to be imported into this country and which, my information leads me to believe, could have been manufactured by Irish Steel, Limited.

Mr. Allen

Some of them are being made here.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I am talking about what was imported. Unless somebody was getting commission out of it, there does not seem to be any reason why that should have been the case. I am reliably informed that a good deal of the steel work and steel products that had to be imported for Telefís Éireann could have been manufactured at home. Is the Minister thoroughly satisfied in this regard?

Mr. Hilliard

I am.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I should be prepared to take the Minister's word for it, if he has thoroughly investigated this matter.

Mr. Corish

Father knows best!

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I am not one of those Deputies who distrusts every Minister. If I were to show my distrust of all the Ministers, I might not be too honest with myself. I do admit it is possible to have a Government with one Minister whom one can trust. May I qualify that by saying it is possible to have a Fianna Fáil Government with one Minister one can trust? That is why I say that if the Minister tells me he has fully investigated this matter and is satisfied within his own conscience—did the Minister say something?

Mr. Hilliard

No.

Mr. Corish

He said he trusted you, too.

Mr. Hilliard

I am quite satisfied.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

If the Minister says he is satisfied that these very costly imports could not be manufactured at home, I am prepared to take his word for it, but I would ask him to consult with the Television Authority to ensure that as far as possible whatever they require will be manufactured within the country and that there will be a general cut-down on imports.

The last matter I want to raise is in connection with news items. The editors of the news both for Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann should seek advice in relation to local news. A greater concentration on local news would be of greater interest to the public. In the past, there has been too much emphasis on international news, too much emphasis on Congo news. More local news would arouse more local interest. The news editors of both Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann might consider providing more local news in future.

Like Deputy Kyne and the other speakers, I want to say that the Post Office is rendering great service to the country generally. All those connected with it work hard—postmen, postmasters, postmistresses, and all the other staffs. Radio and Telefís Éireann have their own difficult tasks to fulfill and they are doing so reasonably well. I compliment them on the work they have undertaken. The grievances voiced here are not grievances against personnel; they are grievances founded in Government policy and a change in policy is needed, if these grievances are to be remedied and the position generally improved. That cannot be done without money. It is the duty of the Government to find the revenue to remedy grievances and solve the problems that exist. If every Department displayed the same intelligence and common sense in the discharge of its duties as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs does, difficulties would be resolved overnight. The Minister's Department sets a good example of a good job well done. I wish the Minister every success. I trust he will find the money to improve the lot of auxiliary postmen and subpostmasters and postmistresses throughout the country.

Mr. Treacy

As a newcomer to the House, I have listened with interest and, I hope, no small enlightenment to this debate. I am deeply conscious of the fact that the Post Office service, like many other services, is something we took over from the British less than half a century ago. It is commendable that we should have made such rapid strides in that short period.

The Minister is the heir to a proud tradition. I commend him for the achievements wrought in our time, particularly on the historic achievement of the advent of native T.V. That achievement reflects the greatest credit on the Minister, his Department, and all others associated with the service. Because it is still in its infancy, I am slow to criticise and I hope that the allegations of preferential treatment as between one Party and another will be refuted by the Minister and that Telefís Éireann will offer to all an impartial service untainted by political bias.

My primary purpose in intervening in the debate is to raise the problem of the human element in the Post Office service. I am very conscious of the problems of the auxiliary postmen and I wish to associate myself with the plea made by other Deputies for an improvement in their pay and conditions. I also hope a pension scheme will be introduced for these men. Men of such a high degree of integrity, honesty and industry, charged with the responsibility of performing work comparable with that done by permanent postmen, are worthy of better treatment at the end of their days. As it is, they are denied a pension scheme. I hope the Minister will take courage and do away with this odious term "auxiliary" in relation to postmen. They should have equal status with their permanent colleagues. These men at the moment get no recognition whatsoever of service rendered, perhaps, over 40 years. I trust the Minister will rectify that sorry situation speedily.

Another aspect of Post Office service which shocks me deeply is the position of the night and Sunday telephone operators. They are paid a miserly hourly allowance of a little over 2/6d. A man with a family is compelled to work an 80-hour week to earn enough to support his family. That is a deplorable situation. These people are expected to forgo their night's sleep, to be available literally night and day, for a miserly pittance. They must of necessity do a fortnight's work in a week to earn enough to support themselves and their families. I do not know of any overtime rate struck for these people. I should like to know if the Minister is aware of this sorry situation and if he is, will he take steps to remedy it? These telephone operators should be put on the same basis as night operators in the cities and larger towns and paid the appropriate rate.

Recently, I asked the Minister when we could expect to have an automatic telephone exchange in Clonmel, the capital town of County Tipperary. The Minister's reply was one of the shortest I have so far heard given to a Parliamentary Question. I do not suppose the brevity or curtness was deliberate; he said he expected to see an automatic telephone exchange in Clonmel in about five years' time. The period has shocked many of us. I had hoped that, with the progress we have made and with the aid of the technical staff at the disposal of the Minister, Clonmel would not have to suffer this long delay before getting automatic telecommunication.

It is a matter of deep regret to many that the Minister feels himself obliged to increase the ordinary sealed letter postage rate from 3d. to 4d. An increase of a third in any commodity is certainly substantial, and I would have hoped that the Minister might have increased the poundage rate on the dearer stamps rather than increase the threepenny, which is the stamp used by most of our people. He is placing an impost on the section of our community which can least afford to bear it. I feel also he might have waited for the Budget and included that increase in it. Perhaps it was unfair practice that the Minister should introduce a little budget of his own in advance of the Budget we shall have in a week or so.

While I have nothing to say to any of the post office staffs wherever I conduct business, it is desirable, having regard to the fact that so many poor and infirm people are obliged to fill out the somewhat tedious forms for old age pensions, widows' and orphans' pensions, children's allowances and so on, that staffs should be instructed to assist them to the fullest extent possible. I am not casting aspersions and I have nothing but admiration for the manner in which post office staffs work. However, I should like a handicapped person approaching a post office counter to be treated with the utmost consideration and kindness and every assistance given to him. I should like to think that the Minister would make a point of ensuring that that is the practice at all times.

Since the advent of television, many of us have noted a deterioration in the reception from Radio Éireann. I wonder if the Minister or his technicians could help us in that regard? Wherever there is a concentration of television aerials, reception from Radio Éireann is virtually nil at times. I hope the Minister will do his best to overcome that problem because it might result in people losing interest in radio, and that would be a very great pity. Radio Éireann is still a most important medium of information and entertainment.

I also expressed the hope in a question tabled to the Minister that he would find ways and means of ensuring that Telefís Éireann would be available to people all over Ireland and that he would allow nothing to prevent our people in the north-east from seeing our programmes. The programmes of Telefís Éireann will reflect all that is good and noble in the Irish way of life and it is important that they should be available to our people in north-east Ulster.

I wish the Minister every success in his endeavour. The Department of which he is in charge is less than 50 years old. He has a very proud tradition to uphold and I commend him for the manner in which he is doing that.

Mr. P. Hogan

(South Tipperary): I want to preface my remarks by paying a tribute to the front line soldier of the post office, the ordinary postman who comes to my door twice a day and the ordinary telephone operator who facilitates me in my phone calls. I have not got a television set; I am not one of the Minister's four guinea subscribers, as yet. I cannot comment very much on Radio Éireann in comparison with other programmes. I think the ordinary person judges the work of the Minister's Department by the reception he gets in the post office and on the telephone. By and large, I think the workers, postmen, telephone operators and so on, deserve well of our community.

I shall not pay any tribute to the Minister or criticise him. He is a very estimable man and is, I assume, doing his best in his Department. However, I was rather perturbed to find a clash of opinion between himself and Deputy Ryan on this side of the House. I, too, have been assailed by this suspicion that has got abroad that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs have been in effect, willingly or otherwise, securing a television monopoly. A number of people have been disgruntled by the fact that they have not the same choice of programme now as heretofore. I am not a technician or a television expert. I cannot come to any decision as between Deputy Ryan and the Minister. Even Deputy Ryan and the Minister are probably in the same position as I am: they are not technical experts, either. I would appeal to the Minister, even from his own point of view, to try to get rid of that lurking suspicion, which has become fairly widespread. He owes it to himself and to the Television Authority to give all the information he has to the public so that any lurking suspicion in that regard may be dispelled. There is nothing that creates suspicion more than a feeling that some information is being kept back from the people. That seems to be the position in Deputy Ryan's mind and in the minds of many people with whom he has been in contact.

Most of the speakers have covered the field fairly widely. They have treated the matter in global fashion. I do not propose to do that. I do not see any point in reiterating all the points other speakers have raised. I shall not start talking about telephones, postmen and so on, but there is one aspect to which I should like to advert and it relates to television. Television is our newest service and consequently has received comment from all sides of the House—mostly praise, I am glad to hear, and a certain degree of criticism.

Television fulfils several functions. I suppose primarily we regard it as an entertainment agency, and I expect it is that aspect which sells the service. In general, speakers were quite satisfied with that aspect of the service. It is also an advertising agency, and in this regard there has been some criticism, particularly in regard to commercial advertising. That criticism came mainly from Deputy Dr. Browne. He probably has a point there, but we must remember it requires money to run these things and the commercial aspect of a service such as that cannot lightly be by-passed.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 4th April, 1962.