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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Jun 1962

Vol. 196 No. 7

Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 1962— Committee Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."

I was asking before Question Time who were the people for whom it is necessary to provide these hours of drinking. I submit it is not the ordinary hotel residents. The ordinary drinker in hotels or restaurant bars is the kind of person who usually has gone home before the present hours of closing. They are not looking for longer sessions. This can well be described as class legislation introduced to afford people who have more money than brains opportunities to drink after the normal times. It is introduced to afford facilities to the well-heeled gentlemen who were usually well-oiled and who caused all the trouble and difficulty that was complained of when we were trying to get rid of the bona fide traffic. Why should this be done to facilitate such a set of people?

Here is a case where we are departing from the principle of uniformity. We are increasing the hours now being allowed for this kind of drinking. At present it is an hour after the public houses close. Now it is suggested that it be extended to an hour and a half after that. I am thinking of the employee who has to put up with these people who come in well lit up and cause trouble. He has no protection against them. The hotel employers were reluctant to implement the present Liquor Act. They did not want it; the employees did not want it and there was no great demand for it from the regular customers. The Act was in existance for some months before it was availed of, and in some hotels and restaurants even up to the present they do not operate the hours allowed under the present Act. I hold that the hotels should not be allowed to open for any longer than at present.

I would like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that there are very few licensed restaurants in this country. In Dublin they are so few that you could count them on the fingers of one hand, so where is the demand for these extra hours?

This also applies to restaurants with wine licences.

There are very few holders of wine licences that open after 11.30 p.m. The majority of them close down at that hour but there is a number that make it a practice to sell wine into the small hours of the morning and sell other things under the guise of wine.

Has the Deputy spoken to the members of his own union about this?

What they tell me does not agree with what the Deputy says.

If you are willing, I will bring along a deputation and you can have a chat with them. I happen to be secretary of the branch of workers in this particular industry and they should know.

You must be a little out of touch.

I will prove it if you want me to. As far as the views of the members of my union are concerned, I had meetings with the members of the bar section and they told me that they do not want it. I had meetings with the waiters, chefs and porters who will be involved in this and they do not want it. The members of my branch committee say they do not want it. If the Minister wants any evidence in regard to this I am prepared to give it to him. I am not crossing swords with the Minister, I am joining with him in having the matter discussed in an amicable fashion.

What is mainly concerned in this section is an extension of half an hour. At the present time hotels, licensed restaurants, restaurants with wine licences or with the limited restaurant certificate, that is the new type of restaurant created by the 1960 Act, can all serve drink up to 12 o'clock at night with a meal all the year round. The simple proposal in the Bill is to extend that time to 12.30 a.m. I do not think that will create any real problems for anybody. It can solve a very large number of problems and difficulties for the members of Deputy Mullen's own union and they have said as much to me.

Shortly after the proposals were published, the waiters in one of the more prominent city hotels where I was having lunch came over to me and said how grateful they were for these proposals. They indicated to me that, when serving meals up to 12 o'clock, it was difficult to have the tables cleared and drinks removed on the dot of 12 o'clock. That indicates this half-hour will make all the difference from their point of view. It will enable them to keep everybody satisfied and at the same time obey the law as it should be obeyed.

I should like to point out to the Minister that in most Grade A hotels service stops at 11 p.m. That being so, how can the Minister try to prove there is a difficulty found by the waiting staff in clearing off?

I can take the Deputy to the hotel.

I should like the Minister to remember this, and I know he is aware of it, that for the few months in which this 1960 Act was in operation the waiters in hotels refused to work the hours.

Just one point on this matter. This is an amendment of section 13 of the Act of 1927. Section 14 of the same Act makes provision for certain circumstances where Section 13 will not apply and it lays down certain paragraphs from (a) to (e) inclusive. Among the provisions are that drink be served with a substantial meal to residents but there is no provision whereby a resident in a hotel may have a drink after hours. I should like the Minister seriously to consider putting down a short amendment for Report Stage, possibly to add a subsection to Section 14 of the 1927 Act in terms something like this:

The sale of intoxicating liquor to a person who is for the time being a bona fide resident of a hotel at any hour.

I suggest this because I think there have been two successful prosecutions against residents in hotels who were found drinking in their own hotels outside the prescribed hours. The most recent case was published in the Evening Herald of Friday, May, 18th, 1962. Justice Johnson dismissed the summonses on the merits against the licensee and against four people found on the premises. It is reported that Garda Moloney visited the hotel at 10.56 p.m. on Good Friday and found a group of people around a fire.

That is the only day in the year it can happen.

Perhaps, the Minister would consider amending that because I think a bona fide resident in a hotel should be served on any day of the year.

That is arguable.

Question put and declared lost.

Vótáil.

For the sake of half an hour.

I have my instructions from my members.

Would the Deputies challenging a Division please rise in their places?

Deputies Casey, Corish, Coughlan, Mullen, M.P. Murphy, Pattison and Treacy rose.
The Committee divided: Tá, 57; Níl, 15.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dolan, Séamus.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hillery, Patrick.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Leneghan, Joseph R.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Con.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.

Níl

  • Belton, Jack.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Dan.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • Mullen, Michael.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Norton, William.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Treacy, Seán.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan; Níl: Deputies Casey and Mullen.
Question declared carried.
Sections 5 and 6 agreed to.
SECTION 7.

I move amendment No. 9:—

In page 5, lines 6 to 22, to delete subsection (1) and to insert the following subsection:

"( ) For the purposes of the Licensing Acts and the Registration of Clubs Acts a meal served in any premises after the commencement of this Act shall not be deemed to be a substantial meal unless—

(a) the meal is such as might be expected to be served as a main midday or main evening meal or as a main course at either such meal, and

(b) the meal is of a kind for which—

(i) having regard to the prices charged for meals in the premises at times other than prohibited hours, or

(ii) if meals are not normally served in the premises, having

regard to all the circumstances, it would be reasonable to charge a sum that is not less than—

(I) the sum (if any) that for the time being stands fixed under subsection (2) of this section, or

(II) if no sum stands fixed for the time being under the said subsection (2), five shillings."

This amendment deals with the definition of a substantial meal. During the Second Reading a number of Deputies expressed doubts about whether any definition would prove effective in practice. I accept there is no guarantee that there will not be some evasion, but I feel that a definition such as I have proposed is far better than nothing at all. I believe also that that would be the view of even the most sceptical member of the licensed trade. The amendment I am proposing does not make any fundamental change in the definition set out in the Bill, but there are a couple of drafting changes. Apart from those the amendment proposed sets out to do one thing: to admit within the definition of a substantial meal what most of us would refer to as a high tea or a meat tea.

Generally speaking, a person would not normally have a drink with such a meal. In the normal course of events, they would have it either before or after. However, most of us would agree that there has been a practice up to now by which a bowl of soup, a cup of tea and maybe a sandwich or a pork pie have been used as a cover for the supply of drink on the basis that it constitutes a substantial meal. The definition which I put forward was to deal with that situation. It specifically excluded both the bowl of soup and the cup of tea and sandwich.

That matter was dealt with in subsection (1) of Section 7, Paragraph (b). That paragraph is specifically designed to get at the pseudo-meal, which would consist primarily of a bowl of soup or a cup of tea and a sandwich. I propose to delete paragraph (b) for two reasons. First, I do not think it is an essential part of the definition as it stands and I think the remainder of the provisions are adequate in themselves. Secondly, the definition is to apply not only to those provisions of the law covering the serving of drink with meals in hotels and restaurants during prohibited hours, but is to cover the granting of exemption orders for special functions such as the annual dance or socials of particular organisations. Deputies will realise that the substantial meal definition has an important bearing on that type of function. At these functions it is customary on occasions to have a high tea. For one reason or another, many organisations do not have a full dinner at that type of function but have something more on the lines of what is commonly known as a high tea.

Now the present definition is in the Bill. I do not think it would be sufficient to enable the courts to grant special exemption orders in the case of social functions of that nature which were not a full dinner but merely a high tea, a meat tea, as we known it. For that reason, the main purpose of the amendment is to delete paragraph (b) of subsection (1) and there are a couple of minor drafting matters as well.

Is it possible that a sandwich can still be a substantial meal? The Minister says no, but as I see it, there is nothing in the section to prohibit a sandwich from being a substantial meal, provided it costs more than 5/-. Paragraph (a) provides that it shall not be a substantial meal unless:

the meal is such as might be expected to be served as a main midday or main evening meal or as a main course at either such meal,

Paragraph (b) provides that it is not a substantial meal unless:

soup, tea or coffee is not served as part of the meal except as a subsidiary course, and

I understand this matter was tested on one occasion and a sandwich was held to be a substantial meal. Prices have risen since then and I can conceive of an expensive sandwich costing more than 5/-. I do not say it would happen very often, but it is conceivable that it could happen.

A Dagwood sandwich.

Smoked salmon, or possibly a hamburger.

Made up for the occasion.

If there is doubt about it, is it not better to leave out the definition altogether than put in one that could be the subject of doubt in the future, and possibly unnecessary litigation? In at least one previous case, a sandwich was held to be a substantial meal. The section, as amended, or indeed in its original form, provides that it must cost not less than 5/- or whatever appropriate sum is fixed. As other Deputies have said, at present an expensive sandwich such as the one which was mentioned could cost more than that.

I do not think this question of the substantial meal has the same importance in the Bill now as it had when the Bill was originally drafted. I think Section 7 was put into the Bill primarily to deal with the licensing of restaurants under Section 15 as it was originally proposed. I think I am correct in saying that on a previous occasion when this House was endeavouring to get a definition of "a substantial meal", the general view was that it would be quite impossible to get any kind of watertight definition which would avoid all sorts of litigation, and possibly a situation arising where one court might take one view of what constituted a substantial meal, and another member of the judiciary might take another view.

I do not blame the Minister at all for endeavouring to get a definition and to put it in the Bill, but I am very doubtful as to whether his definition will work, and whether it will be a watertight one, and not give rise to the complications referred to by Deputy Cosgrave. I think it is unlikely that the Minister has succeeded in getting over that hurdle. I do not blame him for trying. I do not know whether I am correct in saying that the amendment which the Minister has moved is, in effect, for the purpose of taking out paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of Section 7. Its effect is to take out the reference to soup, tea or coffee.

I do not know whether there is any significance in the fact that the amendment is proposed following the Minister's announcement to the House that Section 15 is to be dropped. It seems to me that the Minister is modifying the definition as originally proposed by him of "a substantial meal". In other words, he is modifying it now when it will, in fact, have reference only to dance halls and extensions of licences to dance halls, and hotels for that matter, for dances in hotels. It seems to me that on that basis the Minister has now decided that the definition which he originally proposed in respect of restaurants should be modified. I do not know whether or not I am misreading his intentions.

We must take this in conjunction with Section 9 which deals with the ordinary small dance halls. Usually the town hall is available to a sports club or to someone who promotes a dance in aid of a sports club or a charity. There is provision in Section 9 that they must be charged a certain amount, that a substantial meal must be available and the price is payable on admission.

Is the Minister aware that in those halls in certain rural areas there are no facilities even for high tea? These are occasional dances held in halls which are converted into dance halls and licensed under the Act, and very often there are no facilities for the provision of high tea. If the Minister intends to persist with Section 9 in its entirety and make a substantial meal part of the application, it means that a local hurling club or athletic club will be deprived of it. I should like to draw his attention to that.

Deprived of what?

The right to hold a dance with a bar.

With drink?

That is what I want to do, except on four occasions during the year in any one dance hall.

So long as the Minister knows what he is doing. I am against that because I think it is wrong. As I said on Second Reading, that is class legislation. A hunt club can charge 35/- admission and bring down Mrs. Lawlor of Naas or some other well known caterer, who can set up his or her own equipment. They will hold their dances and the Minister will not be able to stop them because he cannot. I suggest that is class legislation of the worst kind. I am sorry if the Minister is doing it deliberately; I thought it was by accident. I am surprised and shocked that it is being done deliberately. I can assure the Minister that he will deprive the people in the rural areas, not only of enjoyment but of a reasonable means of carrying out their activities. The Minister may well say: "Oh, well if they want to support anything, they do not have to have a bar."

Deputy Kyne is discussing Section 9.

I agree I am, but I must take Section 7 in relation to Section 9. The clause "substantial meal" is in Section 9. If I agree to this amendment, it will be difficult for me to vote against that clause in the second next section. I agree with this amendment and I will vote for it, but it will appear that I am voting against it on Section 9. When we come to Section 9, I shall appeal to the Minister to reconsider his decision.

I think we have missed the purpose of the section. Let us go back over the history of the restaurants. Under the 1927 Act, any publican who served meals could procure a restaurant certificate which enabled him to supply drink with meals during prohibited hours. Under the 1960 Act, a number of publicans, particularly in County Dublin, were going to lose what was then known as the bona fide trade between 11.30 and 12. The Minister's predecessor threw a sop to them and said: “Instead of giving them a restaurant certificate, we shall give them a limited restaurant certificate.” That certificate enables the publican to supply drink with meals in a limited portion of the premises, the portion licensed as a restaurant and nowhere else. When that certificate is granted, the justice defines the room or rooms in which meals may be served.

Naturally, these publicans were not going to allow the business to filter away and began serving meals in this limited space and drinks with meals. The Minister saw that things had developed in such a way that possibly meals which would not otherwise be described as substantial meals were being used as a camouflage for the purpose of supplying drink and he has now come in with this amendment which puts a premium on the price of a meal to the working man. That is what it does. It fixes the price which a working man must pay for a meal, if he wants to have a drink with it.

The Minister talks about the main course. Take the farm worker or the farmer. How many courses does he have——

What exactly is the Deputy talking about?

I am talking of what the Minister is going to have the restaurant charge 5/- for.

Not at all; only if they are to serve drink with the meal.

That is what I am referring to. I do not expect— although he might like to do so—the Minister to fix the price of a meal where drink is not served. Goodness knows, I would not put it beyond him. But I am referring to the man who wants a drink——

A bottle of stout.

You are not in a public house during ordinary hours.

This is after hours. Suppose you are in a restaurant or hotel and you want a meal and a bottle of stout with it at 11.30 p.m. If you want that bottle of stout, your meal must cost 5/-.

Is that not reasonable? That is after the public houses have closed.

If you want a meal after the public house has closed, no matter what it is——

And a drink with it.

——you are going to pay 5/- for it. You will have to pay for the drink anyway. That will not be thrown in.

If you want the meal without the drink will you still have to pay 5/-?

The Deputy should stay out of this.

You will not have to pay 5/- for a meal, but if you want a bottle of stout with the meal——

Anywhere in a restaurant.

Only in a restaurant with a licence.

But I said "if you want a bottle of stout." The Minister should listen to me.

There are only very few such restaurants.

Nonsense. Every hotel in Dublin is classified in the same way and so is every third-grade guest house with a licence attached to it.

If you are in a hotel, you are probably a resident and you are all right.

Not necessarily. Let me give an example for Deputy MacCarthy's benefit. Suppose a crowd comes up from Cork to an All-Ireland Final. They travel by train and they get home at a quarter to 12 at night. They are anxious to have a drink and possibly a snack before going to bed.

I shall put it as a snack. They are legitimately entitled to have it, provided they pay 5/- for the sandwich, but they must pay 5/-for it.

They cannot get it with a sandwich.

Because it must be a substantial meal.

For instance, you may have a man suffering from ulcers for whom a sandwich is a meal. I know Deputies whose main meal would not make one course for me. It depends on the individual. This is the first time that any Minister has tried to define what a main meal is.

Could a sandwich not become a main meal?

If it is caviare, it could cost more than 5/- or if it is a turf-worker's sandwich, it could cost a fair amount. We are now going to set a premium on having a bottle of stout after hours.

After hours—that is the point.

When the public houses are closed.

The Minister says: "You can have it but you are going to pay 5/- for it." I do not mind paying 5/- for it but the majority of the people cannot afford to pay 5/- for it. Why should the Minister classify them with me——

The Deputy is talking the greatest nonsense yet on this Bill.

The Minister does not like to hear this.

Ask Deputy Belton behind you.

I know many decent Deputies who represent constituencies down the country such as mine——

Ask Deputy Belton —he knows all about it.

I do not care what Deputy Belton knows about Dublin. I represent a rural constituency but the Minister is trying to speak for the city of Dublin and he wants to make the city of Dublin the standard rule.

Earlier, I was being accused of exactly the opposite.

I do not care what the Minister was accused of earlier. I am accusing him on this section of putting a premium on the price of a meal for the farmer, the labourer or the turf-worker.

Poppycock, nonsense.

Because all we are dealing with here is when the ordinary licensing hours are ended and when people are having a substantial meal. There is a special concession, if you like, in the law and certain restaurants are able to get this advantage over the public house in that they can serve a drink with a substantial meal for roughly an hour after closing time. All we are doing is ensuring that when we say "substantial meal", we mean a substantial meal, so that these restaurants will not be able to cheat by serving sandwiches or pork pies after the public houses have closed.

So, in order to prevent the publicans cheating, the Minister is going to make the poor unfortunate labourer pay 5/-. I do not think the publicans of this country are dishonest——

It is not the publicans.

That is what the Minister says—to prevent the publicans cheating for the purpose of serving drink.

It is restaurateurs we are talking about, not publicans.

The Minister should remember that restaurateurs with licences must be publicans. I do not like the Minister attacking publicans who have restaurants. I do not think it is fair that the Minister should attack publicans and penalise the labourer who wants a bottle of stout with his meal at night.

The Deputy would make politics out of the Apostles' Creed.

When Deputy MacEoin quoted the Apostles' Creed a few minutes ago, the Minister did not pay much attention to him.

Deputy MacEoin submitted his Bill to the Bishops, not the Government.

The Bill was submitted to the Government and, at the request of the licensed trade, who said that the Hierarchy approved of it, I asked them if that were so, and they answered it.

The Deputy did not get "a belt of a crozier".

If some of the boys got "a belt of a crozier", it might do them good.

That might have been a remark of mine but it is quite significant.

It was not very edifying.

That was a different Bill. That was the Health Bill. The Minister should get his facts right.

I am thinking of the dock labourer in the city of Dublin who has to work overtime and finishes at 11.30 p.m.

And who goes into the Gresham?

No—Dolly Fawcitt's cafe—and more than dock labourers went into her place. Deputy Sherwin knows what I am talking about.

Yes, but Dolly will not like you mentioning it. Maybe she will. It may be good for business.

It will advertise her.

Take such a place, take some restaurant catering for the working class—a public house with a restaurant certificate attached. The dock labourer wants what to him may be a substantial meal at night with a bottle of stout. Under the Minister's amendment, he may have his bottle of stout and his meal, but he must pay 5/- and not a penny less.

Not if he has not the stout.

Why do we want to deprive the poor unfortunate working man of his bottle of stout? The Minister says it is to prevent the restaurant-publican from cheating. I say the Minister is cheating the unfortunate working man by charging him 5/- for such a meal.

Can he not send out for half a dozen before the pub shuts?

The type I am talking about could not afford half a dozen. That is what we have been preaching. Prior to the Minister's predecessor's Act of 1960, we drank in Dan Murphy's pub until any hour. Now we have to drink on the stone outside Dan Murphy's door. We carry it out, as Deputy Sherwin suggests. That is what we have to do.

The boys like it that way.

They are compelled to like it that way and the Minister is going to compel them, if they want a bit of a meal with it, to pay 5/- for the meal. I am referring to people who work late at night. Deputy Sherwin knows that there are men working in the docks who want a pint at 6.30 a.m.

Deputy O'Donnell is dealing with the dock labourer who knocks off at 11.30 p.m. and goes into Jammets for a meal.

Must it be Jammets?

Is that what the Minister wants?

These are the type of places the Minister knows. Leave him alone. Some day we will take him on a trip through the docks and show him a few places there, such as Berty Donnelly's.

I know it well but there is no restaurant there.

Are they put in the same class as the Gresham or Jammets?

There is no restaurant there.

The cheapest is probably Flynns and you will not get much of a meal for 5/-.

That is one that I do not know. I know a number of them in my constituency. I know a number of publicans around Bundoran who have restaurant certificates. I know a number of people from the North who come over, and who when they are put out of the public house at 11.30, say: "We will have a meal and a drink before we go home."

What would the meal cost?

You are going to ensure that it will cost 5/-

What would it cost?

Just tell me.

I do not know. I know the main course of most of these people would be bacon and cabbage. I would be very sorry to see them paying 5/- for bacon and cabbage. That is what the Minister says they have to pay for it.

If they can get a meal for much less, I think we will all go up there for holidays.

You went there and you did not stay very long.

I did; I stayed a month.

We will be glad to see you back but not if this section goes through, if we have to pay 5/-for every meal at night when we want a bottle of stout with it. It is a very bad thing. I do not know why Fianna Fáil should set the standard price of a meal. I think it is bad. I would appeal to the Minister to reconsider it, to do what his predecessor did and merely say "a substantial meal" and leave it to the district justice to decide whether the meal was substantial or otherwise in the circumstances.

And make more work for the lawyers.

The lawyers have only to defend some people or other who find themselves in trouble. If the Deputy falls into the hands of the lawyers very often, he must have broken the law.

Not a bit of it.

Then do not worry about it.

Giving money to you people is money wasted.

I am trying to prevent money being wasted, money being spent foolishly. If there is a prosecution, leave it to the Guards, first of all. He comes in and he says: "What are you having." The person replies, "I am having a course of bacon and cabbage." I see Deputy Cunningham smile. He is an applicant for a licence and, I assume, for a restaurant certificate. I am trying to protect the like of the Deputy but I am also trying to protect his future customers. I am really worried about this because a man must pay 5/- for a meal after 11.30 p.m. if he wants a bottle of stout with it. The Minister has thrown the argument to me that the working man is not going to Jammets. I know he is not. Most of us can afford to go there to take a glass of stout or glass of champagne with a meal in Jammets, the Shelbourne or the Gresham. We can afford to pay 5/- for a dozen oysters and a glass of stout after 11.30 p.m. but why should the working man of the city of Dublin not be entitled to go into the restaurant to which he usually goes and which has a licence attached and have what may be his main meal, which may be a very substantial meal, with it? Why should he have to pay 5/- for it? It is setting a premium on the price of a meal that was never intended. In 1927, when the late Kevin O'Higgins introduced his Bill, he said "a substantial meal". Again, in 1943, when the Minister for Justice brought in his Bill, he said "a substantial meal". In 1960, when the ex-Deputy Traynor brought in his Bill, he said "a substantial meal". This Minister goes further. He says a substantial meal is to cost nothing less than 5/-. Is that right? I do not think so.

I should like to comment on Deputy O'Donnell's remarks. Apparently Deputy O'Donnell is concerned about the farm labourer, the docker, and so on, who may not be able to get a drink after the hour of 11.30 p.m. unless he pays 5/-.

That is right.

I suggest that Deputy O'Donnell, if he were genuine in these arguments, should have made these remarks on Section 2 and should have put down an amendment to the effect that 11.30 p.m. will not be the closing time, that it will be 12.30.

I would have a 24 hour opening if I had my way, for six days of the week, and 12 hours on the seventh day.

I am glad to hear the Deputy saying that.

I should like to go on record as saying that these are my personal views.

Deputy Dillon also said on 18th February, 1960— Volume 179, column 579 of the Official Report:

... the only really effective way in which you will ultimately get unanimous public support for licensing laws controlling hours to operate would be to abolish the hours of opening——

I quote:

——to have it on a perfectly free basis.

Yes, and if Deputy Lemass joins us shortly, as we hope he will, we will bring in a new Bill.

I have expressed agreement with that point of view.

But the point here is that if we are going to make laws and have restricted hours of drinking and if we give a special concession to people who are having a meal at night, I think the Minister is perfectly right in tightening up the legislation in order to prevent abuses of that concession. That is exactly what he proposes to do here. There are very few places that I know of where you could get a substantial meal for less than 5/-.

I am opposed to this amendment on completely different grounds from those expressed by Deputy O'Donnell. I am opposed to it because I believe that when the pubs are closed, they should be closed. I happen to know rural Ireland. I am sure there is not a great deal of difference between rural Ireland in the south and in the north-west. Deputy O'Donnell seems to forget that this provision would give an opportunity to people who felt they had not enough drink up to the closing of the public house, who may have young girls with them, to go into a restaurant and pay 5/-, not for the meal—they will have to take it, of course—but for the opportunity of having another hour of drinking. I am opposed to the amendment and I am naturally opposed to the section itself. I consider that the hours for drinking are sufficient. The people who advocate longer drinking hours should realise that restaurants are places where one can have a meal, a cup of tea or coffee and things like that and not mainly places for drink.

Dublin has been mentioned. I am not interested in what may be the case in Dublin. Fashionable places and other places that would not be charging the same high rate have been mentioned. However, I do not want to see creeping into rural Ireland the habit which has developed in Dublin and, perhaps, in Cork city that certain people can enjoy a drink at hours when others cannot. There is talk about the turf worker, the farm worker, and the road worker. From what I know of the majority of those workers, when it comes to closing time they realise it is time for them to go home and that if they want a meal at that hour of the night the place to have it is in their own home.

I have no sympathy with this amendment or with the section. It is simply catering for people who want to have a good time, people who believe that there are no other amenities to enjoy in rural Ireland except the public houses and who on the pretext of having a meal whether it costs 5/- or 10/-, want longer hours for drinking.

Mr. Belton

This amendment deals solely with the definition of a substantial meal. The Deputies who are discussing trading hours on this matter are drawing a red herring across the issue. I agree with this amendment. I do not agree with my colleague Deputy O'Donnell's suggestion about meals. Boiled bacon and two vegetables in the restaurant here in Leinster House, which is subsidised to the extent of £2,000 a year, will cost each diner 4/7. There is very little difference between 5/- and 4/7 and I think 5/- is a proper figure to have adopted in this amendment.

However, I think the Minister is wrong in deleting paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of Section 7 "where soup, tea or coffee is not served as part of the meal except as a subsidiary course". He should also include in that "all sandwiches". As Deputy Cosgrave pointed out here earlier, the Minister and myself can go into a restaurant. I could have a beef sandwich because I would prefer it to a smoked salmon sandwich, but the Minister might have a smoked salmon sandwich. I will pay a shilling and he will pay 6/- and he will qualify for a drink and I will not. There I see a weakness in the amendment. As Deputy O'Donnell said you could have a caviare sandwich which might cost 10/-or 12/6. I pose that question to the Minister and I think he should reconsider the deletion of paragraph (b) and add to paragraph (b) "all sandwiches".

This is one of the matters on which I spoke on the Second Reading of the Bill. It will be very hard to administer this section. I realise the Minister is anxious to raise the standard of food and drink in public houses and any public house that is worth its salt should be anxious to give a reasonable meal with drink. Nevertheless, this provision will raise considerable doubt as to what is a substantial meal. What one person might consider a substantial meal might not be good enough for another person. One type of meal might be substantial for a person who is on a diet. I am not too happy about what will be the interpretation of this provision by the Gardaí when it is in operation. Recently, in County Dublin a Garda prosecuted a publican because he was not serving the drink with the meal. The customer had the meal almost eaten when he ordered the drink. The Garda summoned both the customer and the publican. Under this provision one would nearly want to have a receipt for a meal in order to satisfy the Guard.

I disagree with Deputy Belton in regard to sandwiches. Many people might prefer sandwiches for a main meal and people who do not care about eating meat might want cheese sandwiches. I would like the Minister to have another look at this between now and the Report Stage. I believe the interpretation of a substantial meal, which is a matter I have raised with the previous Minister as well as with this Minister on the Second Reading, should be left reasonably wide. The price will, I am afraid, cause a great deal of confusion. A great deal of misrepresentation may go on and the possibility is that the Minister, so long as he remains Minister for Justice, will have a chronic headache.

In my opinion, 5/-, at the rate things are going, will be equal to about 2/6 five years hence. I wonder has the Minister taken account of time?

I can increase the figure by order.

Then that is all right. I believe the value of the meal should be increased to 10/-. We should not encourage people to drink after 11.30 p.m. I am not impressed by Deputy O'Donnell shedding tears over the worker. Ninety per cent. of the workers, if not 99 per cent., will be at home and in bed at that hour. We certainly hope they will. I am sure, in the case of the remaining few, the boss would not object to some little arrangement to get in a few bottles before the public houses close.

It must be remembered that last year we got £47,000,000 from tourists. We must encourage tourists. If they have the money, we should not object to their having a drink and, if they can afford it, paying 10/-. As one Labour Deputy said, I am afraid this will only result in giving rise to undesirable incidents. We should make that kind of thing very costly for those who engage in it. The tourist will not object to 10/- or 15/-. Whenever I go on the Continent I have to pay £1 for every meal. Five shillings is nothing. If the Minister leaves it as it is, he will only encourage people who should be in bed, who cannot afford it, or who have had enough. We should do everything to discourage drinking. For the tourists, the price should be 10/-.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on his courage in trying to define a substantial meal. I am not opposed to this amendment, or to the section, because I think this type of provision is long overdue. I do not agree with the comments made by Deputy Burke, but I certainly endorse everything Deputy Sherwin has said. I am dealing with this purely from the point of view of what constitutes a substantial meal. If nothing else, this provision will deter undesirables and prevent undesirable things happening. In the city of ours in the past, many subterfuges were adopted to obtain drink. The Minister has now defined a substantial meal and a hot dog or a bowl of soup will no longer meet the provision.

I agree with Deputy Belton's suggestion about including sandwiches. It would be necessary to do that having regard to increased costs. We have been told how the Minister intends to operate this section. He has made provision for altering the price, if necessary. Concern has been expreseed about the working man drinking late at night. Concern has also been expressed that the working man should have that opportunity. I submit the ordinary working man is very well satisfied to finish his drinking at 11 p.m. There is no point in inducing him to spend money he can ill afford by giving him the opportunity of going in and having a meal unless it is of the kind prescribed by the Minister.

Deputy Sherwin says: "Make the price 10/-." We know that the people to whom Deputy Sherwin referred will not care what they spend. They go out for a certain purpose. They are well heeled with money. They do not come in the main, from the working class. They can well afford to pay 10/- or 15/- for a "substantial meal". This is an attempt—I regard it as a serious one—to define a "substantial meal".

This issue has lost considerably in importance having regard to the fact that Section 15 has gone. In so far as an effort is being made by the Minister to give a definition, the point at issue was pretty well pinpointed by Deputy Sherwin when he spoke on this subject on the occasion of the last Bill. Deputy Sherwin posed a query to the then Minister. I should like to put it to the Minister again now. Speaking here on 29th March, 1960, at column 1314 of Volume 180, Deputy Sherwin asked:

Does a substantial meal mean the size of the meal or the cost of the meal?

The Minister has now answered that by saying both; it is partly the size and partly the cost. Continuing, on 29th March, 1960, Deputy Sherwin said:

A fish and chip meal is a substantial meal, you can get it for six-pence in some places, but in other places it might cost 6/-. Fish and chips is a substantial meal to a lot of people.

That is the kernel of the Minister's problem here. The Minister means a substantial meal, but, as Deputy Sherwin pointed out, it is possible that for some people fish and chips is a substantial meal and might only cost, in the normal course, anything from six-pence to 1/6. Under the provisions of the Minister's amendment a substantial meal of fish and chips at a normal price is excluded. On the other hand, if someone decides to charge 5/-, or more, for fish and chips, the person ordering will be entitled to get a drink.

The definition is important in two ways. It is important in relation to the serving of meals after the ordinary licensing hours in hotels, licensed restaurants, restaurants with limited certificates, and restaurants which are normally referred to as licensed to sell wine. At the moment, this type of establishment is able to serve a meal up to twelve midnight. The Bill proposes to extend the time to half-past twelve. It is an important privilege for that type of establishment to be able to serve intoxicating liquor after the ordinary closing hours. It is a privilege allowed to them because they are serving substantial meals and the theory is that an establishment of that kind should be entitled to serve intoxicating liquor with a substantial meal up to midnight or half-past twelve.

It is important from a number of points of view that we should make that concession. The stipulation in regard to the concession must be a real one and not one capable of being abused or got round. It is important, first of all, in order to be fair to the publican because he has, after all, to close his premises at the stipulated time —at eleven o'clock, or half-past eleven, or ten o'clock on Sunday — and, in order to be fair to him, we must insist that the stipulation we lay down with regard to the serving of drinks after these hours is a real one.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 3rd July, 1962.
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