Vol. 196 No. 17
I move:
That it is expedient to authorise such charges on and payments out of the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof and such payments to the Central Fund out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas as are necessary to give effect to any Act of the present session to amend and extend the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1927 to 1961.
On the Money Resolution, I would like to refer the Minister to the accounts of the ESB for the year ending 31st March last in so far as they are affected by this Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to raise the amount for both the special fund and the general fund from £32,000,000 to £37,000,000 and from £120,000,000 to £125,000,000 respectively. If the Minister will look at page 4 of the ESB accounts he will find this curious phrase: "the total investment for productive use at the 31st March was" and then follows a figure of £113,742,906. I find that hard to understand. The implication to be taken from it is that there are funds of the ESB invested unproductively.
I understood that the whole purpose and function of the ESB was to invest the money given to it in a productive fashion. I may have missed something but the manner in which that is phrased suggests to me that there are some moneys invested unproductively by the ESB and I am not prepared to give the Board of the ESB any further money until I know what are the unproductive investments.
In addition to that, I find the greatest possible difficulty in understanding the statement of capital contained in pages 22 and 23 of the Board's report. Originally, on page 4, we are told that the total fixed capital is £118,700,000. We then come to page 23 and we find that the outstanding balance of repayable capital is £79,889,000. That figure is apparently carried into the capital account on page 22, Account No. 9, and then the total of capital is set out as being £126,834,000. Again, I do not understand how the various figures are reconciled one with the other. It would be easy for me to go into very many other aspects of the ESB accounts but I do not propose to do so, because I am taking the view that this Bill is for the purpose of dealing with the capital of the Board and nothing more.
I should like to have some figures from the Minister before we give the Board a very substantial further sum of money or before we raise the permissive figure from £120,000,000 to £125,000,000. I should like to have some comparisons between the position here and in other countries. For example, let me take the position in the USA. In the USA, I am informed that the installed generating capacity is 174 million kilowatts for a population of 177,000,000 people. That is one kilowatt per person as I calculate the figures. In Canada, where the population is 17 millions, the installed generating capacity is 18 million kilowatts. In the United Kingdom, the percentage is down considerably; the installed generating capacity is 35,000,000 kilowatts and the population is 52,000,000, so that in the United Kingdom, it is in the ratio of only about .7 kilowatts per person. I do not know what our figures are here compared with our population. I do not know whether we are anywhere near the United Kingdom figure which, in itself, is very substantially below that for Canada or for the United States of America, or whether we are at the other end of the scale, which would be, I suppose, Japan where the installed capacity is about 21,000,000 kilowatts for a population of 92,000,000.
The Minister is coming to the House now for the purpose of getting substantially increased funds for the Board and it is, I think, essential we should know what our pattern is in relation to the rest of the world. In view of the immanence of the Common Market discussions, I should like to see where we are travelling in relation to capacity per population as compared with the other countries in the "Six". The availability of our resources in this and, of course, in other respects are matters we shall have to take into account. It is desirable we should have a picture showing where we stand in relation to these matters before this money is given. I have no doubt that the Minister, when deciding these additional moneys were necessary, gave the fullest consideration to our comparison with other countries. I hope he will give the House the benefit of the results of that consideration.
If the Deputy looks at the balance sheet of the ESB he will find at page 24 the information he requires. The greater part of the assets are productive in the sense that they are producing electricity. There are also stocks of various kinds in hands and in transit.
Surely they are productive, too?
They could not be described strictly as productive. It depends, I suppose, on the definition of productive. This Table provides the nearest information I can give him at this short notice as to how the assets are distributed between the various items. I think the Table gives the Deputy most of the information he requires.
The installed capacity of the ESB on 1st April this year was 723,000 kilowatts, roughly .25 kilowatts per head of the population. Comparisons with other countries are almost impossible because the capacity required per head depends on the degree of industrial development and the character of the transmission. It depends also on the different types of generation. A country with a vast proportion of water power held in reserve through the operation of dams requires a different type of installed capacity from a country which derives most of its power from coal or oil.
I do not see why that should be.
It is not easy to make exact comparisons. There is also the problem of peak load demand. That varies from country to country. A country with a great deal of industrial shiftwork at night may have a different peak load factor as compared with a country with a less advanced state of industrialisation. The latter may have a very high peak load occurring at certain times of the day due to the absence of an overall industrial usage. This country is not exactly comparable with other countries because here we have a combination of peat-fired thermal capacity, hydro capacity and coal or oil capacity. At different periods of the year there may be sudden generation changes. Sometimes a very bad peak year may be followed by an extremely dry autumn with a corresponding low hydro capacity. It is really impossible to make comparisons of an exact character with other countries. I do not think I could do the exercise usefully for the Deputy.
I think the Minister has misread the figures. It seems to me that, if one wants to have alternate capacity to switch from hydro to thermal, then the ration of installed generating capacity should be higher and not, as the Minister suggested, lower. Be that as it may, it is highly desirable that we should have before us some figures if we want to make some comparisons in our own way in order to draw our own conclusions. I am not suggesting for a moment that everyone approaching the same figures with the same degree of objectivity would necessarily arrive at the same answer at the end, but it is desirable that we should have the information in relation particularly to our proposed competitors in the Common Market.
The position in regard to Scandinavia is as the Minister indicated. They have a very high proportion of hydro facilities available. I would urge the Minister very strongly between this and our resumption to obtain some figures from the other countries in the Six and from the Scandinavian countries in regard to the installed generating capacity in each, distinguishing them, if the Minister so wishes, between thermal and hydro, so that we can, when we are discussing his Estimate in the autumn, take account of the difference, if we so desire, between their potentialities and our potentialities from the point of view of their being our competitors. Only a Minister, with the facilities available through our diplomatic missions abroad, can get the information. I would be satisfied today if the Minister would give me an undertaking that he will endeavour to get such information as is possible during the Recess and I will put down a question to him on the resumption before his Estimate is taken so that he can give such comparisons as are available.
If the Deputy would find the time to read the United Nations analysis of comparative electricity generation in all the countries he will himself be able to get the information he wants.
Is it in the Library, does the Minister know?
The United Nations material is always in the Library as far as I know.
If not, will the Minister make it available to me?
Yes, surely. He will find a great deal of comparative material there but I read the entire document from end to end and it is difficult to find something which is of real use because of the many differences in conditions. All I can find out from these statistics is that we are making progress in the use of electricity; that we have a vast amount of progress to make still; that we are behind certain countries in the use of electricity for purely farm machinery purposes; that we are making considerable advances in the past two or three years in the use of farm machinery; that the installable cost of rural electrification compared with the main countries in Europe is extremely reasonable, even without making any—how shall I put it— financial allowance for the extremely scattered nature of households here; that the consumption per head is growing fairly rapidly. I have not got these figures by me and could not give without some notice the comparative figures of consumption per head for domestic or industrial purposes.
I do not think they will reveal anything of great significance except the fact that we are progressing but we have a long way to go in comparison with countries such as Sweden which had from the very beginning a very well developed hydro-electric system and where all the people have been traditionally associated with electrical development. It would be very difficult to derive conclusions of a useful character in relation to this Bill but if the Deputy would read some of the material and then if he would like to ask questions for the next session I will endeavour to reply to them in the best way I can and will endeavour to ascertain whether there is anything of significance in the comparisons which would be of interest in regard to our whole development.
Does the Minister recollect whether there are any separate statistics given, for example, for the Highlands of Scotland, which would be comparable to a lot of our area?
There are some separate statistics to be derived from the Report of the Scottish Electricity Development Board.
Again, is that in the Library?
I am not sure whether the Scottish Board of Electricity Reports are in the Library.
Section 4 of this Bill——
The Deputy may not discuss the section at the moment. There is nothing before us at the moment except the Money Resolution.
