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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Apr 1963

Vol. 201 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 47 — External Affairs (Resumed)

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £396,100 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1964, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for External Affairs, and of certain Services administered by that Office, including a Grant-in-Aid.— (Minister for External Affairs.)

The Minister's speech yesterday was disappointing from start to finish. There were many words in it, but it conveyed very little information to the House and less to the country. It was prepared for presentation to the House to get the necessary funds, while giving the least possible amount of information. I notice that in that long speech practically no matter of great national importance was mentioned.

Reference has been made to the Weekly Bulletin issued by the Department. It is mean and shabby and I think its articles are deliberately designed to boost the Fianna Fáil Party. When I read the speeches by various Ministers in that bulletin, I cannot help asking myself what interest or value they have for those who are interested in external affairs. What obligation has the Department to advertise the speeches made by a Fianna Fáil Minister with funds provided by this House?

Reference has also been made to the films which are to be shown when completed, and to the new information booklet which will be in colour and contain photographs. I am sure it is not foolish to presume that booklet is being designed to get publicity abroad for President de Valera. I venture to say that at the expense of the public, the Department of External Affairs are now providing a booklet, in colour, with photographs of the President in every shape and form, to be circulated abroad and give the impression that there is only one Party and one man in this country, and that the only Party who have ever done anything progressive in the history of this country are the Fianna Fáil Party and that the booklet, which will be sponsored by the Department of External Affairs, will seldom or never make any reference to anyone else.

I suggest to the Minister that before he embarks upon large-scale publicity for this new booklet he should consider placing it before the leaders of the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party so that they can see whether it is on a broadminded basis or on the usual narrow-minded political basis of the Fianna Fáil Party. I am given to understand that this new publication is based on the political activities of the Minister for External Affairs himself and on those of the Head of the State, with particular reference to the fact that he was the only leader this country ever had.

The Head of the State should not be drawn into discussions in this House.

I would ask the Minister to consult with the leaders of the various Parties in the House so that their attention may be directed to any political references there may be in that publication.

Reference has been made to the number of international conferences and conventions which are being held in this country and to the many eminent public personalities who visit the State for these conferences from time to time. These conferences are helping to build up abroad a high place for this country and the more of them that are held in our capital city, the better. They will help to bring about a better understanding between those who attend them and the Irish people and they will help to highlight Irish hospitality on a world-wide scale. It should be made known by our Ambassadors and Ministers abroad that Ireland holds out a welcoming hand to people who wish to hold their conferences in this country.

The number of international conferences about to be held here, as outlined by the Minister, is a good sign for our country and this activity should have the encouragement of all members of this House. The more conferences of an international character held here, the better for ourselves. The facilities which we can offer for the holding of these conferences are second to none and I hope the Department will, in its own way and through the medium of the high grade and experienced civil servants in the Department itself, endeavour to concentrate on a long term plan for the holding of such conferences here. Nothing should be left undone to encourage such a development.

Foreign delegates who have come to this country for these conferences have gone away with a wonderful impression of the country. We may not always be blessed with the best of weather but in comparison with the tropical heat of some countries and the bitter cold of others, our climate is reasonably good. Those who have participated in international events here in the past have thoroughly enjoyed themselves and have gone away with a lasting impression of our warm Irish hospitality.

Where functions are held for the purpose of welcoming these international personalities, invitations to such functions should not be confined to those who make generous financial contributions to the Fianna Fáil Party. I know of functions held in Iveagh House and, on looking around, one could only come to the conclusion that the reason for the presence of many of the people there was that they were generous financial supporters of Fianna Fáil. That is wrong and this House is the place where attention should be drawn to the abuse of Iveagh House in that connection. It would not be tolerated in any other country. It may be one way in which the Minister can show his gratitude and appreciation to those who have shown financial loyalty to his Party but it is wrong and should not be tolerated.

I could name at least 20 people whom I have seen at such receptions whose only claim to be there was that they had supported generously the election funds of Fianna Fáil, while representatives of various cultural and educational bodies were overlooked simply because their places have been filled by those who supported Fianna Fáil. The Minister knows that is true.

Fianna Fáil are not taking the activities of the Council of Europe seriously. It is a highly important body. The method of appointment of Government delegates to it is a matter for the Government and I do not know how they make the selection. However, the Council of Europe owes a debt of gratitude to the Leader of the Opposition for the personal interest he has taken in its activities since he went to Strasbourg as one of the delegates of this country. Special mention should also be made of the excellent service rendered to that Council by Deputy Esmonde who, in his own way, has made international contacts of great value to this country.

We should send to the Council of Europe delegates who are entirely devoted to advancing the interests of this country abroad rather than those who are selected on a narrow political basis. I am afraid the Government are inclined to look on the activities of the Council of Europe as an excuse for sending a number of people on a holiday, when they should regard it as an assembly where our representatives can win for Ireland many more friends abroad. The general policy of the Department of External Affairs should be to win for Ireland abroad many more friends and to minimise the number of its enemies. It is hard to see how a nation like ours could have enemies abroad, but it is very easy to make enemies by irresponsible and wild speeches and by acting in an irresponsible way. I am afraid the Minister for External Affairs must answer to this House for a high degree of irresponsibility in his speeches abroad. If anyone deliberately tried to make enemies abroad for this country, he could not set about it in a more effective way than the Minister has been doing. Very recently, he has changed his attitude in that respect, but he could add to this by saying nothing at all. There are many people who cannot open their mouths without offering offence——

Including the Deputy.

It is wrong for a Minister for External Affairs to go abroad and deliberately look for Ireland's friends to give them a kick in the pants, to offer them all sorts of insults. The function of such a Minister is to expound the foreign policy of his Government, nothing more. The difficulty here is to find out what that foreign policy is. We have the Minister for External Affairs advocating one line and the Taoiseach, the Leader of his Government, advocating another. I would advise the Taoiseach and the Minister for External Affairs to consult with each other and try to agree on one policy. The way the Minister has spoken in world councils is belittling and degrading to the Irish nation.

I might point out that we in the Fine Gael Party do not take any delight in that. We are rather sorry about it and want to ensure, through constructive criticism, that a concrete and solid foreign policy is agreed on between the Taoiseach and the Minister for External Affairs and pursued vigorously. One thing that should be avoided is the giving of offence to our best friends, to Britain and the United States. If there has been a temporary misunderstanding between Britain and France in relation to EEC membership, it is no reason to assume that France will be any less friendly to Ireland. Our attention has not been called to any statement by President de Gaulle or any of his Ministers that France would be likely to oppose Ireland's entry into EEC, though I think it would be very unwise for Ireland to enter the Common Market, unless Britain is allowed to join as well.

We must not forget that we are closely linked, economically, culturally and geographically, with Britain. All our energies should be directed to cementing this relationship, but at the same time we should not allow the breakdown between Britain and France at the Brussels talks to influence our friendly dealings with France. While on this subject, I must say I cannot understand why the Minister made no reference to the Common Market in his introductory statement. Everybody now realises the wide gap there is between the information given by the Taoiseach in replies to Deputies Dillon and Corish and the actual truth about events at Brussels. It only serves to strengthen our belief that the Government have badly mishandled and mismanaged our application for EEC membership, that they are guilty of a high degree of negligence. Not only that, but they have continued to withhold vital information on this subject from the Irish people.

I am afraid, therefore, that the Minister for External Affairs and the Government are not fit and not qualified to carry out the further negotiations which will, we all hope, arise in the future in connection with our efforts to join the Common Market. We all now realise the importance of a united Europe, backed up by the USA in the fight to save the world from the heavy and cruel hand of Communism. In his speeches abroad, the Minister should therefore leave no shadow of doubt as to Ireland's position in this regard. He should take every opportunity, in every world assembly, to show where Ireland stands in relation to the activities of Russia and her Iron Curtain satellites — that we are 100 per cent behind the policy of a united Europe, backed by the United States. That is the only hope of obtaining peace and progress in the world and Ireland may be able to play her part in securing these conditions.

We have much to be proud of in our association with the United Nations in relation to the manner in which Mr. Boland conducted the business during his period as Chairman of that body. His wise counsel and capable handling of affairs have contributed greatly to enhancing the fame of Ireland's foreign representatives. It is a great pity that a man of Mr. Boland's intellectual attainments and international achievements should be handicapped by doubts as to the Government's foreign policy. I think the Government are unfair to those who speak for us abroad in not giving them a clear-cut policy on external affairs.

A number of new African States have recently come into being. Why should this country not join with Britain, the United States and European countries and concentrate on making new friends for Ireland? If more intelligence and commonsense were displayed by the Government, it would not be left open to any of these countries to think of Ireland for a moment as anything but friendlydisposed. I trust as a result of this debate steps will be taken to increase the number of our friends and reduce the number of our enemies.

Reference has been made to the Cuban crisis of last October in which President Kennedy, with great wisdom and restraint, made what was probably one of the world's finest pronouncements. He deserves to be complimented and supported by all free nations and should receive officially from Governments appreciative messages saying that they are solidly and firmly behind that pronouncement. Apart from the Pope as an adviser, practically no other statesman exercises as much power in the world to-day and I believe that the President of the United States has contributed more to peace in the past 12 months than any other man. Our Minister for External Affairs when abroad and our representatives in the United States should take every opportunity of making it known that President Kennedy's action in the Cuban crisis was appreciated here and had the support of all free peoples.

In the Congo, the United Nations force is being reduced by 7,000. Serving there at present are 868 members of the Irish Defence Forces and I am glad that the Minister has very properly paid tribute to the conduct of our soldiers there. But I am not completely satisfied that the Government have done all they could in the past 12 months to counteract the false, misleading, malicious, damaging and scandalous propaganda which I feel was deliberately sponsored by Communist interests to belittle the forces of the United Nations and to single out the Irish soldiers. Any money spent in an effort to counteract that campaign would be well spent. The Minister must have information in his Department to the effect that of all the soldiers sent to the Congo, the Irish battalions were of the highest standard in the matter of religious duties, general conduct and discipline and particularly the sympathetic manner in which they dealt with the Africans. Despite efforts to damage the reputation of our soldiers, they have won a very special place in the heart of the Africans for their courtesy, sympathy and assistance. They have helped this country by their good example and their officers deserve the highest appreciation of the Irish people.

Any Deputies who have spoken to any of the chaplains returned from the Congo find that they all testify to the high standard of conduct maintained by our soldiers. These chaplains are in a position to give impartial views because they were with the soldiers not only in the hours of battle and danger but also during relaxation and social moments.

It may be said that we get little value from our Army but the Minister must know that, small though the Army is, there were numerous applicants for service in the Congo. They were disappointed that they could not be called for service in the Congo. That goes to show the fine quality of courageous men whom we have.

Our men went to the Congo, not to look for fight, not to enter into battle but for one purpose only — to preserve, maintain and keep law and order. I really feel that while law and order have been and are being maintained there, the Irish have played no small part in bringing about the peaceful conditions that prevail in the Congo at the present time. We can only hope and trust that the activities of the United Nations in the Congo will be successful entirely and completely and that the time may came when the United Nations may be able to leave the Congo to the natives when they have built up a steady condition of law, order and respect.

We must bear in mind that these people whom the United Nations are now helping and assisting in the Congo are people whose country has only been given birth to. They lack a high degree of discipline, understanding and education — and a general allowance has to be made. Whilst our State is only 40 years old, we are able after 40 years to take our place with the nations of the world in helping to assist in the establishment of law and order in countries which require such assistance. That, in itself, reflects credit on this country. It reflects credit on our Army, on our men and on the United Nations. That is why I feel that the stand that has been taken in the United Nations is worthy of support and co-operation.

Reference was made here last night by a Deputy to the External Relations Act. Why, I do not know — but I suppose the External Relations Act would come up for comment on every Estimate in relation to the Department of External Affairs. Whether that Act was right or wrong, it was passed by this House. I really feel that the passing of the External Relations Act at least decided where we stood. I can recall many years ago asking Parliamentary Questions of the then Taoiseach as to where we stood internationally. Very often, he would reply one day and say: "We are in the Commonwealth but we are not of the Commonwealth." The next day he would reply and say: "We are of the Commonwealth but not in the Commonwealth." The result was a high degree of uncertainty as to where Irishmen stood — whether we were in the Commonwealth or out of the Commonwealth. It could never positively be located where we stood.

The one thing the External Relations Act did was to show clearly where we stood. In addition, if we wanted to appoint our Ministers abroad, those appointed usually had to be referred to the reigning British King or Queen. The passing of the External Relations Act at least raised the status of the head of our State. He was in a position to receive the accredited Ministers and to accept the credentials of foreign Ambassadors, and so on, coming here. They could be presented to him as a representative of our State and we could accredit without any reference to the British King or Queen our Ministers abroad and they could get full recognition in that regard. The passing of that Act, which was never tackled by the Fianna Fáil Party, nevertheless succeeded in having our country recognised abroad as an independent State.

Probably there could have been bargaining at the time. I feel, in that regard, it was a good thing and it is a good thing that the constitutional status of this country abroad should very clearly be defined and that we should not be in the position in which we were prior to the passing of the External Relations Act that we were in the Commonwealth today but not of it and the following day of the Commonwealth but not in it. At least we know now where we stand.

I think it was, again, extraordinary that no reference was made in the Minister's statement this year to the Border, the Partition problem or the problem of a united Ireland. Why, I do not know, because this is one year in which there should have been special reference to that. We can recall a reference made, I think, by the late Cardinal D'Alton some time ago when he spoke of a United Ireland within the Commonwealth. I feel that, as far as the Commonwealth of Nations is concerned, the Commonwealth in non-existent. When we see the position in relation to Australia, Canada and New Zealand, and particularly when we examine the Commonwealth of Nations as it was, say, 25 years ago, it is practically non-existent today.

The point was made as to whether it should be wise to have a United Ireland, a 32 County Ireland, linked with the Commonwealth. But we find that the real position today is that, for all purposes, the Commonwealth is crumbling away and is practically non-existent. Now, what will the Minister for External Affairs do? What is his definite policy in relation to the Six Counties and to the Partition of our country? Has he a definite policy on it or is his policy the same policy as referred to this country before the passing of the External Relations Act when the policy was that we were in the Commonwealth today but not of it and, the following day, that we were of the Commonwealth but not in it and back again the next day to in the Commonwealth but not of it, and so on?

The position is that, for the time being, until the Partition problem is solved in this country, the Government of Northern Ireland are there. There are as good Irishmen in the Parliament of the Six Counties as there are in this Parliament. There are Members of Parliament in the Six County Parliament as Irish, as national and as Gaelic as we are. They possess the Irish language, they think the same way as we think and they care for the people they represent just as much as we care for the people we represent.

When will we reach the stage in this country when we shall grow up? We seem to be remaining small very long. The older we get the more narrowminded we appear to become. I venture to say that in County Down today there are as good Irishmen as are in any part of Ireland. The evidence is clearly given, when the people of Down come to Croke Park to play the people of Offaly, that even though there is a Border between them and for the time being they are under two different Governments they are the same people and they have the same understanding. They are devoted to Gaelic pastimes and have the same allegiance to the GAA as we have in Offaly. They come down to our national stadium in Croke Park to participate in the games and they are as good Irishmen as we are in the south of Ireland. The same applies to Tyrone, Antrim, Armagh, Fermanagh and Derry.

The Minister for External Affairs is himself an Armagh man. Is there anyone in a better position to bring about a closer link-up than he? The Tánaiste is a Belfast man. Are the Tánaiste and the Minister for External Affairs Irishmen to a lesser degree than the Irishmen they left behind in Armagh and Belfast? The men who are in the Six-County Parliament are the political brothers of the Tánaiste and the Minister for External Affairs.

How can we continue to seek friends abroad, to get the new states of Africa to be our friends, to encourage greater friendship with European countries and the United States while we seem to give the blind eye and the deaf ear to our own flesh and blood in the Six Counties? The one year in which there should have been a special reference to the conditions in Northern Ireland is this year and I want to express great disappointment that there was no reference in the Minister's Estimate to the fact that there is a new Prime Minister in the Six Counties.

In this country and in the Six Counties, things have changed during the past ten years. Some of our own leaders in the South have gone, temporarily anyway, into cold storage. The old leaders who carried on the bitterness in the North are fading out and are also, I hope, in cold storage. Lord Brookeborough never wanted to extend the hand of friendship because he was brought up in that old school of narrowmindedness and bitterness. While other Deputies may say, as some of them said last night, that it does not matter who the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland is, that they are one sack, one sample, I disagree with that argument. I believe the new Prime Minister of Northern Ireland will infuse new life and will provide a ray of hope of closer friendship and a greater degree of co-operation between the North and the South. The days of the Brookeborough Government are past. The old references by the Six Counties to Southern Ireland are past and gone. I wish to ask the Minister what has been done in a practical way to help our fellow-Irishmen in the Six Counties. Would it not be better to try to help them economically, and for them to try to help us in our economic difficulties, rather than politically? Is it not a fact that Irish Shipping placed orders abroad for shipping while the Belfast docks and the Belfast shipyards were idle and the shipworkers were walking around unemployed?

Because Belfast did not tender for them.

What steps were taken to find out if the shipyards in Belfast would build ships for us?

They never tendered for them.

If we are asking for co-operation between North and South and if there is any work which we must place with outside contractors, it is our duty to consult with the Northern Minister of Commerce, since we have not a consul or a representative in Belfast as we should have, which matter I shall deal with in a moment. We should make that effort, realising that the economic problems and difficulties of the Six Counties are very close to our own.

There has been tremendous emigration from the Six Counties. There has been endless and tremendous emigration from the Republic. If it were not for the fact that high subsidies are paid by the British Government, the farmers of the Six Counties would be as poor as the farmers of the Republic. I venture to say that the time will come when the British taxpayers and the British Government will "cop themselves on" and will say: "This is too great a liability." If the British Government withdrew their financial support in the morning, it would be very hard for the Six County Government to exist for 48 hours.

We may be able to help those people if they want our help and they may be able to help us when we need help. There is no use in saying that the docks and the shipbuilding yards of Belfast did not tender for Irish shipping. Were they ever asked?

They were asked. The Deputy was so informed of that in a reply to a Parliamentary Question.

I should like to know what steps were taken to encourage the building of our ships in Belfast. If there are no orders for shipbuilding in Belfast and if there is a high degree of unemployment in the yards there, I find it hard to believe that there were approaches in connection with the building of ships for the Republic and that they were turned down. I am quite satisfied no approach whatever was made in that respect.

It was a case of open tender and they did not apply.

Every effort should be made to consult with the North and to say: "You are a part of the unit of Ireland; here is a manner in which we can help to relieve your unemployment." When a helicopter was needed to help in the search for the unfortunate students who were the victims of the tragic accident in Wicklow — in respect of which the sympathy of all of us goes out to their parents— we had to send to the Six Counties. The helicopter came down and operated to great effect and with speed and efficiency. As a Deputy, I should like to express grateful thanks to Mr. Brian Faulkner, the Minister of Home Affairs in the Six Counties, for the speed with which he dealt with the request for the services of that helicopter in connection with that tragic event.

An example of solid co-operation has been provided by the Foyle fisheries. Discussions have taken place between our Government and the Northern Government in relation to railways and transport. On the occasion of the death of our beloved Cardinal last February, at the height of the worst weather for ten years, was a special effort not made by the Six Counties authorities to see that the roads to Armagh were cleared with the greatest possible speed? Was there not a high degree of courtesy shown to our President and Ministers from the time they crossed the Border until they reached the Cathedral in Armagh?

I am glad we have reached the stage of realising the foolishness of using force. I could never understand how any group of men could say it was in the interests of this country that they should cold-bloodedly shoot any fellow-Irishman in the Six Counties. I am glad the Irish Government have played their part in stamping that out. We are with the Government 100 per cent in that regard. It is something to be proud of that those who in the past were inspired by youthful enthusiasm or by the teaching of history in a bitter manner have now come to realise that force will not be tolerated by us in the South and that we will protect the property and lives of the people of the Six Counties and play our part in co-operating with the Northern Government in seeing to it that a state of law and order and respect for those in authority will prevail.

I could never understand why there could not be respect for those in charge in the Six Counties. They are not Englishmen. I do not know if there is any born Englishman a member of the Stormont Parliament. They are all residing there and have got their votes from their constituents. We have a reserved opinion about the make-up of those constituencies and the allocation of seats, but I could never understand how an Irishman in 1962 or 1963 should have the same mentality as we had ourselves in 1921 or 1922. The time in which one Irishman would use a gun on another should be long past. We are now living in civilised times and we should all be grown up.

This Government can contribute most generously, particularly the Minister for External Affairs, towards the building up of the Six Counties as a part of our community. When is the Minister going to appoint a representative in Belfast for the purpose of furthering trade and closer co-operation between the local authorities bordering the Six Counties and developing schemes which affect the two States? Whether we like it or not — and we do not like it — the border is there. It is certain, however, that it cannot always last; but it will never be taken by force. That is as sure today as it always was. There can never be an attempt from this side of the country to take it by force because we would be bringing our fellow Irishmen into combat against us.

There is one way in which this problem can be solved. We should offer to the people of the Six Counties a higher standard of living than they are getting under their own Government. We cannot do that until we first improve our own standard of living and make it attractive for them to come in. If they want to come in, let them come in; if they do not, that is their own business. We must face facts. They are there and we are here. What is to prevent the Minister for External Affairs doing what he has done in the case of Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, Canada, the United States, Argentina and now Nigeria? We have our Ambassadors, Ministers, and trade commissioners, in practically every corner of the world. But here, where we can help our own Irishmen in their difficulties, there has been no effort on the part of this Government.

It is no use saying that constitutionally this Parliament does not recognise the Government of the Six Counties. The Minister for Justice and the Minister for External Affairs have revealed that negotiations are going on between civil servants from North and South in relation to an extradition Bill. How can top-level talks between the two Civil Services take place in relation to fisheries, rural electrification, customs tariffs and extradition legislation without recognising the authority of those with whom we are talking? Surely we are not in consultation with people whom we do not constitutionally recognise?

There are many ways in which we can help those people, and many ways in which they can help us. I should like to hear from the Minister why he made no reference to this matter in his speech. Have the Government decided to do nothing whatever in regard to co-operation between North and South? What has happened to the special section of the Department of the Taoiseach which was set up by Deputy J.A. Costello during the inter-Party Government's term of office to deal purely with co-operation and trade and life in the community generally between this country and the Six Counties? No mention has been made of it from that day to this. Is it not right that if we have trade commissioners all over the world, we should have one in Belfast and should invite the Belfast Government to send a representative to Dublin? Then the question which Deputy MacCarthy referred to in relation to shipbuilding and orders could not arise. If we want ships, we could consult the Belfast representative in Dublin and if he told us that the shipbuilding yards were available for orders and that there was unemployment there, then first preference should be given to Belfast, without seeking tenders from any other part of the world.

What about our own shipyards?

I am talking about them.

The Deputy is not.

Yes. I am convinced that while we have our own shipyards, orders are placed abroad. Naturally enough, our yards cannot be ignored but rather than place the orders on the Continent, it would be better for them to be placed at home, and when I say "home", I mean Belfast. I hope the Government will grow up in this matter.

Now that the Taoiseach has stated that he is prepared to meet Captain O'Neill, the Northern Ireland Prime Minister, I think that Captain O'Neill should be invited to Dublin. The Minister referred to all the personalities who have come here and have been graciously received. I notice that Mr. Henry Brooke, The British Home Secretary, is visiting Belfast today. We had a statement from the Taoiseach and the Minister on their return from London that Mr. Sandys proposes to come here for holidays this summer. It is a good thing for this country, both north and south, to have British Ministers coming here and getting a better understanding of our problems. Mr. Sandys, I am sure, will return with a very good impression of the country.

I am sorry to say that, because of lack of co-operation and friendliness, Ministers in the north, and of the British Government, have not a proper understanding of our difficulties and of our problems. The big problem which exists is the question of our emigrants. There are as many Irish-born people in London as there are in the province of Connacht and talks between Mr. Sandys, the Minister for External Affairs and the Taoiseach would be helpful in getting a degree of sympathy and understanding. When Mr. Brooke has finished his visit to Belfast, a request should be extended to him to visit Dublin. I believe that Mr. Brooke is intimate with the many problems that affect Irish emigrants in Britain. On occasion, I have corresponded with him about emigrants who found themselves in a serious plight, or in difficulties of one kind and another in Britain. I have always found that Mr. Brooke, unlike the Ministers in the Republic, who refer matters of this kind to the Civil Service, dealt with the correspondence himself. Not alone did he deal with it but he carried out personal investigations into the problems affecting the emigrants.

Our Ministers do that.

Mr. Brooke has an intimate knowledge of the many problems facing tens of thousands of our people who are living in bad housing conditions, who are sleeping out, or living in insanitary houses owned and maintained by coloured people. We have thousands of people, particularly young girls, walking the streets in London, Bradford, Manchester, Coventry, Liverpool and Hull without any advice, guidance or assistence, away from friends, from religion and from their own people, in strange, hard surroundings and penniless, and some effort should be made to have talks with Mr. Brooke in this country on the matter.

Does the Minister realise that we are spending £64,000 building a new embassy in Nigeria, and when I say a new embassy, I mean a palace, because for £64,000, it must be a palace. My experience has been that it is difficult enough to get a labourer's cottage built for a man and his wife and five children but £64,000 can be spent on a palace in Nigeria. There must be some special circumstances we have not heard of because any residence for a secretary and representative of this country could be provided with all the amenities and comforts that Nigeria can provide for £5,000. It would be a generous provision at £10,000. It would be of a very high standard at £20,000 but I cannot understand where £64,000 comes in and I want to hear the Minister giving us details as to the building being built in Nigeria for £64,000.

Have there been difficulties in locating a site or have the Nigerian people held the Irish people up to ransom? Who is getting the handover? I should like to get from the Minister full details about this and how it is proposed to spend £64,000 of the taxpayers' money on this palace. Would that £64,000 not go a long way towards providing hostels for our emigrants in London? I know that our emigrants abroad are being catered for. I know that His Grace the Archbishop of Dublin has taken a keen and personal interest in the welfare of our emigrants abroad and has sent from his diocese a number of Irish priests to London and elsewhere to look after them. There are various county associations in London, Bradford and Liverpool catering for Irish people but they have no money. They cannot work without money.

When boys and girls leave this country, having been educated and maintained by their parents until the age of 15 or 20, does that mean that we are finished with them, that we have no further responsibility, that we do not need them any more, that we do not give two straws what happens to them, who provides for them, what their living conditions are? We have not done anything about securing employment or decent living conditions for them or safeguarding their religion. Are we ever going to do anything in regard to that? Do we give two thrawneens about the tens of thousands who have emigrated?

At one time the Government announced their intention to bring them all back to work at home. The days are gone when that was the principal policy of Fianna Fáil. Who is going to cater for our emigrants abroad? We have not provided a penny in an effort to improve conditions for our emigrants. Will we do something for them? Will the Minister do anything about it during the coming financial year? He must not intend doing so because there is no provision for it in the Estimate.

Would it not be a wise thing if the Minister for External Affairs were to go to London to see Mr. Brooke or were to invite Mr. Brooke to Dublin to discuss what can be done about our emigrants in Britain, particularly young Irish girls? Does the Minister for External Affairs know of the extraordinary number of Irish girls, unmarried mothers, who are living in every city in England to-day, afraid to return home, ashamed to return home, who have no friends to help or advise them?

This is a serious responsibility. It is a situation in which our Minister cannot remain dumb and inactive. It is not the responsibility of the British Government. I venture to say that the British Government will co-operate if any move is made by the Minister to do something practical about this matter.

The Deputy has already made these points at some length.

I hope and trust that action will be taken in this matter.

The Minister for External Affairs was one of the Ministers who went across to London recently with the Taoiseach. There is no reference in the Minister's speech on this Estimate to what transpired. Will the Minister tell us when he is replying what the talks were about? Did Mr. Macmillan say anything? I have never in all my life heard of the Prime Minister and the Minister for External Affairs going to London for consultations with the British Prime Minister and other Ministers and returning in a cloud of depression and silence. As Deputy Dillon said last night, they must have been talking about something besides the weather. What brought them over? Did they get anything by going over? Did the Minister for External Affairs know that the Danish Ministers were there the week before seeking markets and getting concessions from the British Government? Our Minister for External Affairs went over to London and spent a few days in consultation with British Ministers and on his return has nothing to tell the Irish taxpayer and ratepayer who sent him over.

The debate on this Estimate is the only opportunity Deputies have of asking the Minister were the talks strictly confidential. Was he bound to secrecy by Mr. Macmillan as to what they were talking about? Did they lose some of the concessions we had from Britain and are they afraid to tell the people? Is that the position? Judging by the sad and gloomy expressions on their faces as they left the aircraft, I have a feeling that the Danes or somebody else got in before them and that our Ministers got nothing. Why the silence? Why has there been no explanation?

If the talks were a failure, tell the country that the talks were a failure. If our Ministers were bad negotiators, let them get out and let somebody else go over who will negotiate more satisfactorily. A great deal can be obtained if there is give and take on both sides and proper negotiation and bargaining. The Minister for External Affairs and the Taoiseach, in my opinion, are not good men to bargain and it is my view that these talks were a complete failure. There is no use in any Deputy saying that we on this side of the House are glad of the embarrassment caused to the Minister for External Affairs by the failure of these talks abroad. We are not. We are saddened if the talks have not been a success. We should like to see the negotiations being successful. The men who went to London were the best men Parliament can select in present conditions but we are not satisfied that they are the best men obtainable to lead a delegation from this country and to get the best possible bargain for the Irish people.

A serious effort should be made to disperse the gloom created by the silence that has attended the return of the Ministers from London. The Minister for External Affairs should get the permission of the Taoiseach as head of the Government to reveal to this House when he is replying to this debate the cause of the failure of the most recent talks with representatives of the British Government. If the talks were not a failure, if our delegation had anything to boast of, they would have called a Press conference as soon as they had disembarked from the aircraft. If there is any bad news arising out of the meetings in London, let us hear it. The Minister should not continue to deprive the House and the country of the full details of the discussions.

Money is provided in the Book of Estimates for the upkeep of our embassies. We should send only the most highly qualified people to represent us abroad. I have no doubt that we have a good tradition in that regard. Because of our close proximity to Britain, and the close economic links which we have, and must have, and should have to a greater extent, it is important that we should have our best and ablest ambassadors in Britain. Mr. Dulanty was one of the greatest and finest ambassadors this country ever had. He represented the Irish Government in trying and difficult times and laid the foundation of a very high standard of representation in Britain. That very high standard was maintained by Mr. Boland and Mr. McCann, and Mr. Cremin now has that difficult task.

The Irish Government could not be represented by a more capable or efficient ambassador in Britain than Mr. Cremin. He is a man of great ability who understands the problems of the British people in addition to the problems of his own country. Instead of Mr. Cremin being handcuffed as our ambassador, there should be a clear-cut policy as to where we stand with Britain in regard to co-operation, markets and everything else. I know that during his term of office he will be successful and that there will be a high degree of close co-operation to the advantage of this country.

I wonder has the Minister ever considered that our embassies and legations and the offices of our High Commissioners should be used to increase our trade with the countries to which they are accredited? That has been advocated by many Deputies. It could be done by the appointment of various trade agents throughout Britain, through the office of Mr. Cremin, and with the approval and co-operation of the British Board of Trade, who would seek markets for our produce. That would help our industrialists and business people. Sub-offices should be established throughout Britain, under the control of what could be described as a trade director, to further the sales of Irish whiskey, Irish bacon, cheese and milk products. Sub-offices should be set up in all the principal cities of Britain, under the control of Mr. Cremin, to deal with the problems of our emigrants, and a high-grade civil servant should be put in charge of those offices, and distressed Irish people with difficulties and problems should know exactly where the most convenient depot was. They should be assisted financially, if necessary, and should be given advice about employment, housing, and the many other problems to which I have already referred.

We should have a number of specially trained people to sell our products in New York. It is not very long since a well-known trader, a most successful New York businessman, came over here and, in the course of a conversation with Deputy MacEoin and me, lamented the fact that he could not get sufficient supplies of frozen fish, cheese and the products of Clover Meats for his ring of stores in Jackson Heights in New York. He made representations to the Irish authorities in New York without success. He said that the moment he put Irish products into the windows of his stores, there was an invasion and the goods were cleared as quickly as they were displayed. This businessman, a native of Athlone, has been many years in America.

The same applies to the late Tim Costello whose bar was well known to the Irish in New York. When he tried to get Irish whiskey for his string of saloons and bars, he could never succeed in doing so. Is it not strange that we are trying to get markets for what we produce here and there are great contacts abroad trying to get our products, but there is a missing link somewhere? The Minister could, and should, fill that gap, and see to it that not only in New York but in Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, and the other cities in the United States, we had trained men pushing the sales of our Irish products. That would eventually be of advantage to our farmers, and especially to our dairy farmers. It would be to the advantage of the Irish bacon industry, and to the advantage of the fish-processing plants in Killybegs and elsewhere. There is a wonderful demand in America for our frozen fish products because of the attractive manner in which they are packaged and presented for sale. That does not show any slackness on the part of those at home, but it does show slackness on the part of those abroad who are not doing enough to push their sales and to ensure that they are in plentiful supply when required.

All our embassies abroad, in France, Spain, Ottawa, Lisbon, Berne, Stockholm, Brussels, The Hague, and Bonn should be able to play a part in pushing Irish products, but they are not equipped to do so. The Minister should equip them. Our exports could be increased five times over if we had the machinery abroad. We have not the machinery or salesmanship abroad. An effort should be made to see to it that these offices are used to press the sale of our products and something worthwhile in that regard should be done now.

Reference has been made to the general outline of foreign policy and I feel it is time the Minister had consultations with himself in relation to his past and in the hope of improving his general conduct as Minister for External Affairs in the future. We now have to face a modern world. I know it is difficult for a Minister who was a Minister a quarter of a century ago to bring himself into line with the new times in which we are living but I hope this debate will give him food for thought in the general recasting of our foreign policy so that we can raise our status as a nation in the eyes of people abroad.

We of the Opposition have no desire to be unduly critical of the Government or the Minister. We would much prefer to be in a position to offer compliments if compliments were deserved, but as far as the Department of External Affairs is concerned, there is room for all-round improvement. I hope the Minister will have a general overhaul of the policy of his Department with the aim of increasing the number of our friends abroad and reducing the number of those who are unfriendly to us.

There is only one pleasant feature about this Estimate, that is, that it shows a reduction as compared with last year. This year, there is a reduction of £550 but last year there was an increase of £93,000, so there is poor consolation for the taxpayer as far as expenditure in the Department of External Affairs is concerned. When the boot was on the other foot and, indeed, when the present Minister was in office previously, the question of Partition was constantly raised. Many a young man was led to his grave over the Minister's solution to that problem. Partition has now become a dirty word as far as this Estimate is concerned. It is not even mentioned at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis. I do not know how they managed that.

Surely that does not arise on the Estimate?

It used to arise on it very much but it does not arise on it very much now as far as Fianna Fáil policy is concerned. It is about time to cry halt to our colossal expenditure on embassies in foreign countries. I appreciate that we should have a decent embassy in Nigeria in keeping with the work of our missionaries in that country. They have played an important part in bringing that country to the position where they can take over control, but I feel that the figure of £64,000 for an embassy there is too high. It is about time we tightened our belts in foreign fields. We are being called on to have a pay pause in this country and we are entitled to a lead from the top in that matter.

Greater efforts should be made by our embassies to promote trade in foreign countries. I should like to see greater return for the money spent on these embassies which should do more work in that direction rather than being in existence for prestige purposes alone. I understand that an official of the London Embassy has been detailed to interest himself in Irish emigrants. That is not a question for an official only. The problem is too great and is one that is being created by the Minister's Government as has been proved by the census returns. I am sure that official could present a very fat file to the Minister regarding the needs of our emigrants in London, that he would be able to tell him that he himself could play a great part by interesting himself in the Irish centre in London and in giving financial help to it. The Minister should have second thoughts on this matter and give some money from the Estimate for this great work.

I note under the heading of propaganda that we are exporting films. The Department should take full advantage of this provision to promote our tourist industry. If we had television films made, it would be easy to get countries to exhibit them. This would play a great part in furthering tourism, our second most important industry. To add to that propaganda abroad, I should like to see a colour party of our troops in the Congo participate in the world's greatest St. Patrick's Day parade, that on Fifth Avenue in New York. I feel sure the United States would be only too delighted to sponsor such participation so that the expense incurred would not fall on this Estimate. Apart from the pride it would give our emigrants, it would also help to remind the people of that great country of the important part played by our Irish troops in the preservation of world peace and it would be some recognition of the great work our troops are doing. As well, it would help to take away from the American Government the nasty taste left in their mouth by the Minister's attitude in the United Nations on what I will call the China incident. On St. Patrick's Day, 1961, I stood on the same platform as the Minister on Fifth Avenue and had the pleasure of seeing that most wonderful parade.

I should like to remind the Minister of the cold shoulder his Department and the Department of Finance have turned to an appeal by pensioners in the United States. Surely this is a problem that can be ironed out between the two Departments. It would help to bring back to this country thousands of emigrants and hundreds of thousands of badly-needed dollars. It would allow emigrants who through economic circumstances had to leave this country to come back here and spend the remainder of their days in places where their hearts have been for years.

Under the heading of international law, I should like to know what part the Department of External Affairs are playing in bringing to justice the greatest criminal who ever hit these shores, Dr. Paul Singer.

I cannot see how this is relevant on this Estimate.

I am raising it under the heading of international law because I feel the Department of External Affairs could do something in this respect.

The Minister for External Affairs is not responsible for that particular incident.

I suppose the Deputy could move to extradite him.

It seems to be a matter solely for the Minister for Justice.

The people who let him into this country should be put on trial.

It is the people who let him out who did the damage.

Ask Deputy P. O'Donnell where he is.

He is in the Canary Islands.

The matter may not be discussed on this Estimate.

He might argue for the appointment of a consul in the Canary Islands to look after him.

That gentleman gave a handsome bit to the Fianna Fáil funds.

If the Deputy persists in discussing the matter, I must ask him to resume his seat. It is not relevant. The Deputy should come back to the Estimate.

It is relevant in this way——

The Chair has informed the Deputy that it is not relevant. The Deputy may hold that it is but that does not make it any more relevant.

The people of this country contribute a sizeable amount of money towards the Minister's Department but it is only a fraction of the amount they paid to Dr. Singer.

Still on the question of international law, I should like to know what steps have been taken by the Department of External Affairs to extend the three mile limit of our territorial waters. The fishermen along the coast are crying out for it. We know the damage that is being caused to nets and other fishing gear by raiding trawlers. I am well aware of it, coming from one of the major fishing centres. I know there is a widespread call for an extension of the limit to 12 miles and I am now asking the Minister what he is doing about it.

In conclusion, I would turn to the problem of the welfare of our emigrants in Britain who at the moment are being left to the mercy of the infamous Connolly clubs while the Minister sits idly by, satisfied with the appointment of a gentleman who does nothing more than go out and shake hands occasionally with one or two of our workers over there. I would urge him not to continue to let our young men and women in Britain drift into those infamous clubs and thus have their confidence in faith and fatherland undermined.

The debate has ranged pretty widely during the past two days on all sorts of matters, some of which are not the direct responsibility of the Department of External Affairs. I should like to deal, first of all, with Deputy Dillon's allegation of a change of policy in the United Nations on the matter of including China on the agenda for discussion. I have been representing Ireland in the United Nations during the past six years. In each of those years, the question arose of whether the representation of China should be included for discussion on the agenda. On each of those six occasions, I voted for the inclusion of that item. In the first four of those six years, the representative of the United States voted against its inclusion, but in the past two years, that representative has voted for it. It is interesting to note that, with all the Fine Gael propaganda about my being a Communist because I voted for the inclusion of China for discussion on the UN agenda, they have not uttered one word about the American delegation voting for its inclusion.

That is not included in the Estimate. The Minister is going outside it.

Would the Deputy shut up?

Many of the matters raised here were much further away from the work of the Department. Not only did Fine Gael go around the country saying these things but they produced a pamphlet which they circulated at the by-election in Dublin. In it they again accused, by quoting a letter, the Irish delegation of "championing the most barbaric system of slavery that the world records". We are alleged to have championed that system because at that time we had voted for the inclusion on the United Nations agenda of an item on the representation of China.

A most ill-advised thing to do at that time.

Surely more than "ill-advised"? Do not become so soft in your old age. It was a "moral iniquity" according to Deputy McGilligan——

Mr. Donnellan

The Minister is not too young himself.

It was "an evil course——"

So it was at that time.

I am glad the Deputy is becoming a little hotter. It was "betrayal of moral and spiritual values" according to Deputy McGilligan and Deputy Dillon and all the rest of them. Why has it not been "an evil course" and a "betrayal of moral and spiritual values of western civilisation", now that the American Government have voted for the same motion? I do not want to talk about it any more.

That does not surprise me. Your record is devious and disedifying in regard to the matter.

Is the Deputy now saying it is devious and disedifying for the United States representative to vote for the same motion?

I am saying you are a most incompetent Minister for External Affairs and you have made a "hames" of our external relations.

And have the American representatives made a "hames" of the representation of America by voting for that motion?

I am dealing with you.

It is embarrassing to deal with anybody else.

Does Deputy Booth aspire to Ministerial preferment?

We have heard Deputy Dillon's shadow Minister for External Affairs for two hours this morning. He should now give the person who happens to be responsible for External affairs at the moment a chance. We did not interrupt his shadow Minister once.

I shall deal now with some of the things it was said I did not deal with in my opening remarks. I thought I had made a very long and comprehensive speech but Deputies racked their brains to deal, not with what I said —nor did they criticise it to any extent—but with what I had not said. Deputy Dillon has for nearly 30 years been prophesying with every moon that Fianna Fáil are about to split. I say 30 years because 31 years ago he voted Fianna Fáil into power. He was one of the critical votes in the election of the Fianna Fáil Taoiseach but for the past 30 years at least every spring and every new moon, he tells us Fianna Fáil are about to collapse, about to split.

I am glad to say that Fianna Fáil have evolved a very strong system of collective responsibility as well as the division of administration. The Taoiseach is and has been, as is right and natural, in charge of major constitutional matters such as joining the EEC. I have no hesitation in saying that inside and outside the Cabinet, I have supported the Taoiseach in his application for membership of EEC. I did so not in the past six or 12 months: I have always been in favour of a European Community in which European countries would combine to run Europe in accordance with the principles of western civilisation and in which they could try to give an example to the rest of the world of how neighbours could live in peace and co-operate to develop their resources, thus helping not only themselves but others in greater need. When at Strasbourg—in 1949, I think—we had the first announcement of the Coal-Steel Pact in which France and Germany participated I remember having the opportunity of welcoming that Pact on the floor of the Assembly, and I did so. I said I welcomed it although we were an importer of steel and I did not think the Pact would result in our having to pay less but possibly a little more but that, representing a country importing steel, I was prepared to pay a little bit more in order to see the French and German people getting together and using their steel for peaceful purposes rather than for weapons of war to hurl at each other.

I thoroughly approve of the organisation of the European Community among the Six and, as I said last year at the conclusion of the debate when some similar sort of allegation was made, I thoroughly welcomed the Irish application to join the European Community. I recognise that if we were to join any such community, we should have to surrender as much sovereignty to that political entity as any other member surrendered. Negotiations have collapsed for the moment and I do not think any useful purpose will be served by commenting on that situation at this stage, seeing that the Taoiseach dealt with it very comprehensively and it was discussed in the Dáil for a couple of days. If I thought any words of mine could help to get negotiations going again and help them to succeed, I should gladly utter these words here or elsewhere.

Deputy Dillon also referred to the fact that I had not spoken about the London talks——

We had a debate for a couple of days on the London talks. The Taoiseach has said all that can be said on those talks.

What debates?

There was a long series of question and answer. It was on the Vote on Account that we had a long debate on this and kindred matters of trade with Britain and the expansion of trade. Everything useful that can be said on them has already been said. If we were prophets, we might be able to say something useful in opening a debate on this subject, but we are not prophets and we have to await events.

We are not the arbiters of European policy nor are we the arbiters of world policy. As a small country, we have to be careful about how we approach situations in which there are high emotions. I should prefer at this stage to leave the matter where the Taoiseach left it and to wait until we see developments in regard to the European Community.

In regard to Partition, again, if I thought it would help matters or help towards the unity of Ireland to deal at length with the subject of Partition in my opening speech I should have done so. I think that at this stage and in view of the recent changes, the most I should say is to reiterate what the Taoiseach said in answer to a question the other day in regard to cooperation with the Six Counties and to say, also, as the late Lord Craigavon said in 1937:

In this island, we cannot live always separate from one another. We are too small to be apart or for the Border to be there for all time. The change will not be in my time but it will come.

Let us hope that all concerned will realise the fundamental truth then expressed by the late Lord Craigavon and that they will work to bring about the change as rapidly as possible. When the change comes, it will redound to the prosperity of both parts of this small island. It is too small to be apart. If it were joined together, it would give a very much bigger market, to put it at no higher level, upon which to build an export trade. An internal market is always useful for the development of exports. It would lead to a free market and free social exchanges which would be very healthy for both parts of the country.

Deputy Byrne and other Deputies spoke at some length on our emigrants in Great Britain. The fact is that it would be impossible for any Government to take as good care of our people who go to Britain as we could if they stayed at home. It is not with our will that any emigrant leaves this country, even though we cannot provide for them——

100,000 new jobs.

——at as high a standard of life as they can get in other countries for a time. This Government are prepared to divide with them if they stay at home but if they go abroad in such numbers as they have gone to Britain, we cannot possibly provide for them there. A lot of the Irish in various parts of Great Britain have been better off or think they are better off than people in Ireland. I think it would be only right to ask them and to try to organise them to take reasonable care of their neighbours in the same town—and we have been doing that. We have a special official on the job of organising these clubs throughout the country. We take particular interest in how our emigrants are getting on. We try to encourage the development of their associations. I do not think we can do any more——

Could you not give financial assistance?

We have a Comptroller and Auditor General. We have to satisfy him that the money is being spent in accordance with the Vote. There is more to it, however, than that. That, perhaps, could be got over by giving a grant-in-aid but there is the fact that there are many cities in Britain with Irish emigrants and there are many sections in each of the cities. I do not know how much we would need to give in order to meet the demand that would be created if there were Government funds here to draw on. We know how difficult it is to resist demands here. We know that if the Government provide a modest sum for a certain limited purpose, the demands grow that more money be provided for all kindred activities. I think that instead of creating goodwill and a spirit of goodwill and self-reliance in the Irish communities in Britain, we would destroy the very good work being done at the present time by voluntary organisations at great sacrifice on the part of their members.

The Minister is aware that the Connolly Clubs are financed from Russian money?

I know that.

It is something to counteract that we want.

But the Connolly Clubs are a very small group. Russia is a very big country and the number of non-members exceeds the number of members of the Connolly Clubs by millions to one. This is a small country, so the position is reversed. I do not believe it would be possible for us effectively to look after our Irish people in Britain from the cradle to the grave. It cannot be done and an effort on the wrong lines to help them might lead to a diminution of the very fine work being done by the Irish people in these various cities.

Deputy Dillon asked for some indication as to what we were doing for underdeveloped countries by making officials available and Deputy Costello suggested we should have a peace corps in order to help these underdeveloped countries. I regard the American peace corps as a very fine effort. It is wonderful to see in this very modern age that young Americans are prepared to sacrifice a number of years, to go to these underdeveloped countries and live more or less on the same scale as the local people, while affording them the benefit of their skills and advice. However, the peace corps is, in effectiveness, very far behind the thousands of Irish missionaries, doctors, nuns and teachers who have gone abroad to underdeveloped countries for a century or more. If we were thinking of training people for a peace corps, there is no better peace corps than the Irish priests, doctors, nuns and teachers who are already in these underdeveloped countries and giving very good service, for very poor reward in most cases.

We have offered to these various underdeveloped countries what assistance we can. The FAO asked us to take an interest in one country, Tanganyika. The Deputies will remember that the Red Cross raised £73,000 for the war against want. The FAO assigned to Ireland the country of Tanganyika to give special assistance to it and that we propose to do.

In Nigeria alone there are something like 1,500 Irish men and women teaching and helping the Nigerian people. That is a vast number of people for a small country like Ireland to have in one country alone. It was the biggest number of Irish at that sort of work in a single country in Africa and we felt we should open diplomatic relations with Nigeria.

A very good thing to do but need we put them in a £64,000 building?

I am coming to that. Lagos was a fairly large city a few years ago but it was not equipped at all with housing or other facilities to deal with the sudden explosion of diplomatic representatives who entered the country and we had the greatest difficulty in finding anything for letting. After some months by some lucky chance, we were able to get a house that was vacated by somebody who had been retired home and we decided to build. Generally speaking, I have always believed we should own these houses. You pay very high rents for suitable houses and at the end of ten years, you are just were you started, and ten years' rent would, I am sure, in most cases more than build an equivalent house. We had that experience in Paris and in London. When we are talking about big houses and big embassies, the Deputy should remember that the highest price ever paid for an embassy was paid when he was Minister for Agriculture in a certain Government.

Where was that?

It is a very good embassy.

The only place where you could really justify it.

I am not saying it is a bad embassy but a point was made about the amount being paid for houses.

No. The point is that if you have a big house, it should be properly staffed. Do not have a big house if you are not in a position adequately to staff it.

I have a note of this but I do not intend to argue the matter. This is the usual row about what we are spending on embassies. All I am saying back—and surely the Deputy is not so thin-skinned to think that when he has two cracks at me, I cannot have a little jab at him——

Not at all, but why spend £64,000 on a house in Lagos?

I have already said there was difficulty in getting houses.

Build the house, but do not spend £64,000 on it.

It is two houses.

Even two houses.

If the Deputy had responsibility for government, it might not be £64,000 but £164,000 he would spend. He objects to expenditure when he is out of office but I am saying that when he was in office, he spent more money on one embassy than was ever spent before. However, we have to house our embassies in a suitable manner and suitability is related to what other embassies have in the same area. I am sure a number of ambassadors would like to live in very small and comfortable houses but that is not the type of house in which they can carry out their duties as representatives of Ireland. It must be spacious and be properly furnished, and so on, in order that they may represent Ireland reasonably well, not with any great display but at least with taste and dignity. I do not think we have aimed at any more than that. Our expenses in regard to housing our embassies abroad is very small indeed compared with that of a lot of countries very little bigger than we are, and some of them very much worse off.

I agree we should keep our embassy buildings as modest as possible, but they should be good and nice. They should be houses visitors would be glad to come to. In Lagos, there was this situation of dire lack of suitable houses. We got one for the moment. This £64,000 is a shot by the Board of Works at what two houses would cost on the only suitable site available. Not only are houses scarce in Lagos, but sites in suitable areas are very scarce and dear. I want to deal with what we were trying to do for underdeveloped countries by sending experts to them.

Where do you propose to have the second house?

The two houses will be in Lagos, one for an ambassador and one for a secretary.

Would it not be cheaper to have one unit?

Somebody must decide these matters. We are not experts. The Board of Works are our experts on this. I am relying on their judgment as to what is appropriate. They sent a man to have a look at the situation in Lagos, to see what type of accommodation other countries have there and what we should build for our accommodation.

Would the Minister say——

More information could be got if the Minister were allowed to proceed.

We are dealing with financial matters and I am entitled to know.

Not in this fashion.

Last year, a number of Irish professional experts were sent under the technical assistance programme of the specialised agencies to the following countries: Colombia, Ethiopia, Nigeria, Jordan, Burma, United Arab Republic and Somalia. In addition, there are probably a dozen professional people working under the technical assistance programme of the specialised agencies of the United Nations—doctors and nurses under the World Health Organisation and agricultural experts under the Food and Agriculture Organisation.

From time to time, we have been receiving applications for training facilities here for people from countries in the course of development. In the past year, there were four Congolese officials undergoing training in the meteorological section at Shannon. We had an Iraqi in the housing section of the Department of Local Government and for one or two years past we have had an African in the Attorney-General's office. We have told a number of countries: "We cannot do as we would like to do—offer special scholarships to all and sundry in Africa in order to take out a primary degree, but there is one facility we can give at reasonable expense to us which would be very valuable for you, that is, if you send along men with a university degree or a certain level of experience in administration, we will try to fit them in here by putting them through a Government Department or through one of our State bodies." That invitation is open, and a number of countries are interested in it.

However, under various organisations they have open to them scholarships which, up to the present, seem to be more attractive. I know from talking to a number of the representatives of these African countries that they are coming to realise more and more the importance of good administration and good business management. I pointed out that we could offer good training in both those fields to men who were equipped educationally or through experience to absorb what we could give them.

Is it proposed to send our administrators on loan, for instance, to the Government of Tanganyika?

It is—agricultural experts. We did lend a parliamentary draftsman to Ghana. He is back, but a former Irish civil servant is now filling the same position. That is a private arrangement between himself and the Government; we did not come into it. We are willing to give what help we can, but we are limited. The type of help we offer is the type of help most needed by some of these countries and the type we can give at least expense.

Deputy Cosgrave referred to the question of territorial waters and suggested we should make an effort again to get an agreement to extend our fishery limits by bilateral agreements. We have been doing our best to try to get a renewal of negotiations for international multilateral agreements instead of bilateral agreements. In our circumstances, bilateral agreements are not desirable. It would be better for us if we could get a group of nations, either here in Europe or in the eastern Atlantic, to come together and make an agreement as to what the limits of our territorial waters and fisheries would be.

We have been pursuing that. From time to time, our hopes have been raised; the prospects look a bit more promising, and then they fade away. I am not unhopeful, however, of making some progress towards a multilateral general agreement between a group of nations in the eastern Atlantic or in both the eastern and western Atlantic. If there is any chance of achieving that end, it is better for us to wait rather than push out our territorial waters, claiming the right to exclude people from a greater area of the sea. We have not only to catch fish but we have to sell them after the event and I should like to see, when we extend our territorial waters, our fishing limits, that it would secure as wide an acceptance as possible.

Vote put and agreed to.
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