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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 May 1963

Vol. 202 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 14—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.

When I moved to report progress last night, I had just said that 2½ per cent turnover tax, plus the extra five per cent on corporation profits tax, would yield the £6¼ million required to close the gap. Frankly, I am surprised that there was any substantial opposition in this House to that extra tax on big business profits. I had thought we had reached the stage of maturity here at which we would have a proper sense of fair play as between the big fellow and the small fellow, the strong and the weak. That does not seem to be the case. I feel sure that no Deputy in the Labour Party is opposing this increase in tax on big business profits.

I cannot understand how any Deputy claiming to have sympathy with the weaker sections, with the poor, with the unemployed, with the social welfare recipient, can justify opposition to this increased tax. It was said on a famous occasion, and very well said, that property has its duties as well as it rights. Well, it can be said now with equal truth and equal force that big business has its duties as well as its rights—its duties to the poor, to the aged, to the workless, to the workers and to the sick. If this debate proves nothing else, it proves where the friends of the big business tycoons are in this House——

Hear, hear! A finance committee.

I shall pass now to the turnover tax. It is a new tax, a new departure here, but it is not new on the Continent. It has been in operation there for years in several countries, in one form or another, and it has worked with outstanding success. The proof that it has been successful is that it has been kept on by these countries. They have not given it up. It has become a permanent feature of their budgetary structure. It is also in operation in such socialist countries as Denmark, Sweden and Norway but to a greater extent, up to ten per cent in fact. You can call it what you like; it is the same system.

Surely its successful operation in these countries is a recommendation to operate it here in the financial circumstances in which we find ourselves at the moment? It is not a big tax, this 2½ per cent, or 6d. in the £. It will be chargeable in proportion to what is taken in by the shopkeepers. If the shopkeeper's income goes down, the amount of the tax to be collected will go down and vice versa. It is far and away different from the position the farmers so bitterly complain about— that when their income falls, their rates and general costs keep rising. At the same time, the majority of speakers from the Opposition benches, including Labour Deputies, claim that the entire 2½ per cent will be passed on to the customers. That has been said over and over again by Fine Gael, Labour, some of the Independent Deputies and by the National Progressive Democrats.

What about RGDATA?

If that is true, then the shopkeepers have very little to complain of. They will pay nothing at all. Surely a Deputy must come down on one side or the other? Is he to claim that the shopkeepers will pay this tax or that the customer will pay it, or will he compromise?

Mr. Donnellan

Who will pay it? The consumer, of course

Even if the entire amount of the 2½ per cent tax is passed on—and mind you, many Deputies on the Fine Gael benches, as well as my friends, Deputy Tully and Deputy Norton, say more than 2½ per cent will be passed on——

I heard speaker after speaker claim that. They made a claim tantamount to an assertion that all the business people, the shopkeepers of this country, are dishonest. What else does such a claim mean? If a person who has to pay a 2½ per cent tax—let us admit he is morally right in collecting that tax—passes on three per cent to the customer, he is dishonest. This claim is tantamount to a suggestion that the shopkeepers will exploit the situation to get more out of the customers, that the shopkeepers are skinflints who will exploit a budgetary situation or a new tax to get more than they are entitled to out of the customers. That is a disgraceful accusation to make against the business people of the country. I do not believe they will do it. I know as many shopkeepers throughout the country as any Deputy and from my experience of them, I can assure the House that not one per cent of them will do this.

Of course, you might get some politically-minded shopkeeper, a shopkeeper suffering from an excessive zeal for Fine Gael, who might put a little extra on an article so as to be able to say to a customer: "That is what Dr. Ryan did for you; that is what Lemass did for you; that is what Fianna Fáil did for you. "I can assure the House he will do it only for a very short time because the shopkeeper next door will not be talking about Dr. Ryan or Deputy Lemass. He will be a man of business acumen who will treat his customers justly. I do not want to be hard on anyone. I am talking straight and plain.

I love to hear the Deputy annoying them over there.

We have all this wailing about this heavy burden but on whom will the burden be?

Let us take an old age pensioner. He will get an increase of 2/6d. a week from next November. He will have to spend over £5 a week before this tax will even begin to worsen his position.

Let us assume that he has a family, will they not pay it?

When he will have spent the whole 32/6 which he is getting at present and have paid the full 2½ per cent—if the shopkeepers are so hardhearted and so harsh as some Opposition Deputies would have us believe—he will still be 1/8¼ to the good. I know the sneers expressed by Fine Gael about halfpennies and farthings and I also heard Deputy Norton speaking. I was surprised that he was in such a frivolous mood. Since I came into this House, I have seldom heard him treat matters lightly. I was always able to follow his speech and he was always crystal clear. By and large, he always treated his subject fairly but on this Budget he was in a frivolous mood and adopted the same attitude as Deputy O'Sullivan about halfpennies and pence and made statements that were tantamount to accusing the shopkeepers of being dishonest, saying if it were a matter of 7½d., the shopkeeper would make it 8d. Would the shopkeeper not take the generous view and say: "I will charge 7d.?" Of course that is what the shopkeeper always does.

To return to the old age pensioner, he will be saving 1/8¼d. I am not ashamed to mention the farthing because it is the truth. To look at it in a simpler way, he is getting an increase of more than 1/6d. Some of the mathematicians in Fine Gael can check that and they will find that it is right. They will find that it is a fraction over 1/6d. Therefore, even if he paid the full 6d. in the £, he would still be 1/- to the good. Let us go on to another person the Fine Gael members would have us believe will also be burdened.

Let us take the working man with a family, say, a family of nine children under 16. At present that man is getting £8 9s. 6d. a month. Get out your notebooks and check that. You can have a wager with me if you want to bet that I am wrong. As from November 1st next, he will be getting £10 11s. per month.

Mr. Browne

You may not be there to give it to them in November.

Why do you not contradict me?

We are enjoying it.

I am glad to be able to entertain you. This will be an increase of £2 1s. 6d. per month and that man would have to spend over £83 per month before the turnover tax would even begin to worsen his spending position. Of course, we know that he would not spend anything like it. He would not have it to spend but let us give him a liberal sum to spend. Let us say he spends £40 in the month, from November 1st, and he will still be £1 to the good because he is getting almost 25 per cent increase. Therefore the tax is not going to weigh very heavily on him. This Budget, while keeping the national finances in a sound position and providing for and encouraging the continuance of the expansion and development of our economy, has, at the same time, protected the poorer sections, the old people, the man with the big family and the widows against whatever increase in taxation they will have to pay.

There is a man in the public gallery who does not agree with that.

He was in it—he is not there now.

That has been the Fianna Fáil policy down the years and that is the big difference between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. When the Government realised that they had to get £6¼ million, they faced up to the problem even though they knew they could not get it from the traditional sources of revenue. They did not take a step backwards or say: "We will cut down on this or on that; we will let someone go without; we will not give the recipients of social welfare benefits any increase; we will let this development slow down or we will let the other development stop". They did not do that. They had courage enough to introduce a system which works well in other countries.

(Interruptions.)

On a point of explanation——

There can be no point of explanation. Deputy Egan is in possession. The Deputy will get an opportunity of making his own speech.

They have also been able to increase the old pensions by nearly eight per cent. and to give increases to all the other recipients of social welfare benefits. Some years ago, when Fine Gael were in power under a different name, when they came up against an awkward budgetary situation, they resolved their difficulties, partly in any case, by reducing the old age pensions by ten per cent.

That is right.

You did not recount all the difficulties. Your brother is more familiar with them.

You took one shilling off the old age pensions.

His brother is more familiar——

We are all familiar with them. No one is more familiar with them than I am.

(Interruptions.)

I knew that would come back. If I met the Deputy in a place where we could discuss these things, I would give him enough of it.

This is the place to discuss things.

Deputy Egan should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

I am making the assertion that the Fine Gael Government, when faced with budgetary difficulties, resolved those difficulties by cutting old age pensions by ten per cent.

They were faced with other problems at the same time.

They could resolve the problems by methods other than leaning on the most defenceless section of the community. They did not allow their friends to go without anything even when faced with these difficulties. They took damn good care that their friends were well looked after.

The Deputy would be unwise to follow that line because I can talk about Fianna Fáil doing well by their friends also.

The Deputy has always skeletons in his cupboard. Some day we will explore his cupboard.

Deputy Egan should be allowed to make his own speech and the interruptions should cease.

Is it a speech? I thought it was a diatribe.

That is the great difference between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, their respective attitudes to the poorer and weaker sections, to the workers and towards social welfare generally.

I welcome the very substantial sum provided in this Budget for the farmers, almost £40 million. This is something the farmers will understand, something concrete. Fine Gael have nothing to offer the farmers but advice, filling every townland with instructors and advisers. If you have a good farmer and give him a chance to make good with subsidies on fertilisers and other helps and if that man does make good, he is better than having a whole battalion of instructors and advisers because in farming, as in other walks of life, example is better than precept.

Tell that to the Minister for Agriculture. He would have whole fields full of inspectors.

I welcome the increase in old age pensions and in all the social welfare allowances and the increase for the man with the big family. I also welcome the provision and encouragement in the Budget for the continued development of our economy. This is a very sound Budget and a very fair one. The burden is spread equitably over all sections, having due regard to protection for the weaker and poorer sections. Anywhere there is weight to be borne it is placed on backs fit for the burden. I congratulate the Minister on a job well done and I believe that when the next Budget comes around, his courage and wisdom and foresight in this Budget will be appreciated by the people and that they will not be slow to say so.

Why not let the people say it now?

So much has been said already about this Budget in the House, and outside it, so much has been said and written, that it is very difficult to avoid repetition. However, there are some things that cannot be repeated too often. I hope to avoid repetition as far as possible. I think no Budget in the history of the State has provoked so much adverse comment. Certainly, no Budget has aroused such widespread condemnation as the Budget we are now discussing. The fact that the Government have had to resort to the most unpopular forms of taxation conceivable has been interpreted rightly as an indication of the mess in which this country finds itself after six years of Fianna Fáil rule.

No amount of bluff and propaganda can succeed in presenting this Budget other than as a drastic remedy for a desperate situation. The Taoiseach, in his speech, tried to sound convincing. He made a valiant effort when he spoke enthusiastically about the new five year plan and about the need to finance economic and social progress through increased Government spending. He tried to sweeten the pill of increased taxation by painting rosy pictures of future gain but no amount of windowdressing can hide the fact that the Budget is necessary because of the complete failure of the economic policy pursued by the Government since 1957.

In my opinion, the Budget is an admission of failure and the Taoiseach and other Government speakers were unsuccessful in their attempt to cover up that failure. They must think the people are simpletons to fall for glib talk about a new five year plan which is to bring increased employment, better social services and a higher standard of living. The people will not easily forget the promises made six years ago, the 100,000 new jobs, the economies to be effected in Government administration and so on. I believe if we look at this Budget in its true setting, we can only see it against the background of the record of the Government since 1957.

What is that record? I could use the word "record" in another context because the Government have undoubtedly created several records. For the first time, we have an adverse trade balance of over £100 million; our National Debt now exceeds £500 million; Government expenditure has reached an all-time high level of £167 million and last year £23 million were raised through local authority rates. Certainly, when it comes to raising and spending money, this Government have created records. What have we got in return? Have we the increased employment and lower emigration that we were promised? Have we better housing and social services? Have we increased production from our greatest natural resource, our land?

It is easy to find the answer to these questions. I shall take unemployment and emigration first because it was on a categorical assurance that they would solve these twin problems that Fianna Fáil were returned to power in 1957. The Taoiseach made this quite clear when he spoke in the Dáil on 14th May, 1957. I quote from column 44 of the Official Report. This passage has been quoted before but it could not be repeated too often. The Taoiseach said:

I and my colleagues have no doubt in our minds that we became the Government because the people expected us to work determinedly and intelligently to bring about a situation in which employment would expand, in which the twin problems of unemployment and emigration would be vigorously tackled.

What has happened since then? How did the Government fare in their attempts to tackle these twin problems of unemployment and emigration? Again, the facts speak for themselves. Although there has been a certain amount of controversy about the exact figure, it is a fair estimate that roughly 250,000 people have left this country since 1957. So much for emigration.

With regard to unemployment, we remember the 100,000 new jobs which were promised and we find that in the past five years, taking 1961 as against 1957, there have been something like 14,500 fewer people in employment. We see, then, the net results of the Government's efforts over the past six years have been that 250,000 persons have had to leave this country in search of employment while there are 14,500 fewer persons in employment here.

What about the social services? What about the so-called Fianna Fáil priority housing? How much of this colossal amount of money that has been raised over the past six years has been spent on housing? I have some figures here for expenditure on local authority housing. In 1957, the figure was £10,814,000; in 1958 £7,068,000; in 1959, £5,961,000; in 1960, £6,061,000 and in 1961, £6,389,000. By a process of simple arithmetic, I have got a comparison here. I find that in the three years of inter-Party Government a total of £35,651,000 was spent on housing, which is an average of £12 million per annum, whereas in the four years from 1957 to 1961, a total of only £25,479,000 was spent, which is an average of just over £6 million, which means that the expenditure on housing has been reduced to half.

Why was that?

That is what I am trying to find out.

I will tell you in a minute.

All right. Take the numbers employed in local authority housing. From 1954 to 1957, a total of 15,623 persons were employed on local authority housing. That is an average of 5,207 persons per annum, whereas in the four years 1957 to 1961, a total of 6,495 persons were employed, which is an average of 1,624. That is 1,624 for the four years 1957 to 1961 as against 5,207 in the preceding three years.

I have some figures for houses built by private individuals. From 1954 to 1957, a total of 16,089 houses were built, whereas in the four year period from 1957 to 1961, 14,009 houses were built. So that we can see there has been a considerable reduction in the number of houses built and the amount of money spent on housing.

We see there the record of the Government in the matter of employment, in the matter of emigration and in regard to housing. We now come to agriculture.

I believe that Fianna Fáil never had a policy for agriculture and never will have a policy. In 1962, almost 20,000 people left the land. Farmers, particularly the dairy farmers, until the recent penny was granted, which has now been negatived to a large extent by the increase in the levy, have had no increase in their income but their costs have risen by 30 per cent. Thousands of acres of the best land of this country have been sold to aliens and we have had the extraordinary situation of the Minister for Agriculture trying to justify the wholesale selling of land to aliens. He tried to justify that during his recent speech at Mullingar.

Looking back over the past six years and particularly looking back over the period of the first five year plan for economic development, which is now drawing to a close, we find that the Government have raised more money and spent more money than any other Government. They are now looking for more. Despite all the money which the Government have had at their disposal over the past six or seven years, 250,000 persons have had to leave this country in search of employment; house building had come almost to a standstill; agricultural production for the most part has remained static; the cost of living has risen by several points.

One question more than any other is being asked at the moment by the man in the street. It is not so much how will the money be raised by the new methods of taxation that have been introduced but what, in heaven's name, did the Government do with all the money they have put through their hands in the last few years. It is a very intelligent question and it is the question which the man in the street is asking.

I am not a financial expert and I shall be looking forward to my colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary, telling me what has happened but I shall just make a few shots at answering the question, what have the Government done with all this money? Of course, a considerable amount of it has gone to meet the ever-increasing cost of public administration. The cost of Government in this small country, with its now all-time low record of achievement, must be higher than in any other country in the world. Over the past few years, particularly over the past year and a half or so, Government spokesmen have been exhorting business firms and industrialists to modernise their methods and to cut costs through greater efficiency.

I should like to ask if any effort has been made to overhaul working methods in public administration. As far as I can see, the Government are just handing on the increased costs of administration to the taxpayer. I remember in 1957 promises of huge economies in administration. Those promises, of course, like all the other promises, are just so much hot air and bluff. I believe a considerable amount of money spent over the past two years has gone in meeting the ever-increasing costs of public administration. A good deal of the remainder has been squandered on a mad economic policy. Instead of developing our natural resources and establishing industries based on those resources, the Government have concentrated on grandiose, crackpot schemes, massive public buildings, tourist roadways. These are the things which seem to appeal to the Government. That is where the money goes and pop goes the taxpayer.

Coming from the general to the particular, let us look at the results of the five-year Programme for Economic Development. Let us look at the results in my constituency. Taking emigration first, there is the report of a survey carried out by the Limerick Junior Chamber of Commerce. In passing, I should mention that this is the group before whom the Taoiseach made his momentous announcement some weeks ago in relation to the introduction of a sales tax; on a later occasion, he referred to this group as being the same thing as a Fianna Fáil cumann. This body has published a report of the survey they carried out and the report states that between 1956 and 1961, 22,000 people emigrated from the Limerick area.

Let us look now at employment in my constituency. Except for a few minor industries, no major industry of any significance has been established in either Limerick city or county and in some of the old established industries, there has been a reduction in employment. I have here some official figures got over the past six or eight months in reply to questions here in this House. In Limerick locomotive works on 1st January, 1958, there were 305 people employed; on 21st November, 1962, the number had fallen to 243. At Lansdowne in the Dairy Disposal Company milk-processing plant, situated in the heart of the Golden Vale, in the finest milk producing region in Europe, there were 209 people in permanent employment in 1957; in 1962, that figure had fallen to 187. In afforestation, there were 82 people employed in 1957; in 1961-62, the figure had been reduced to 70. These are the results of the five-year Programme for Economic Development. That is what the programme has achieved for Limerick.

Mr. Donnellan

I thought the Board of Works were operating down there.

The Deputy did not mention it.

The Parliamentary Secretary is getting the works now.

Earlier I gave figures for housing. How much money has been spent on housing in Limerick in the past six or seven years? We have in the city of Limerick, and the Minister for Local Government must be thanked for having courageously adverted to the situation and made a public pronouncement on it, a desperate, deplorable, shocking housing situation.

It was I who said that.

The first time any real pronouncement was made on the housing situation in the city of Limerick was the occasion on which the Minister for Local Government prior to his departure for America last August, publicly commented on it. It was that more than anything else that focussed attention on the situation.

Mr. Donnellan

Someone must have told him.

Taking the six year period 1956-1962, in 1956-57, 200 houses were built. In 1957-58, 159 were built. In 1958-59 no houses were built.

Tell us why.

In 1959-60, 175 houses were built; in 1960-61, 108 houses were built; in 1961-62, no houses were built; in the last financial year—I have not got the official figure —I understand something in the region of 67 houses were built.

The Deputy understands wrongly.

There are 1,500 families in the city of Limerick at the present time living in the most deplorable conditions, conditions to which I would not subject the humblest animal on my farm. This is the result of the famous economic policy. This is the result of all the bluff over the past five or six years. I have done a little research in my constituency.

Our constituency.

Mr. O'Donnell

The results of my research are significant. There are 2,000 people in Limerick city and county in receipt of home assistance. There is no need for me to emphasise the type of existence they have on the miserable pittance they receive.

With regard to educational facilities, there is a good deal of talk now about the new college of technology.

Does the Deputy agree with it?

I agree with anything which will improve the educational facilities of Limerick and bring them more into line with Dublin and Cork.

And Galway.

I am referring to the five-year plan for economic development and the tremendous results that plan has produced in Limerick city and county. Our educational facilities in Limerick are much poorer than are the facilities available in Dublin, Cork and Galway. Wherever the money comes from, whether it be £2 million or £10 million, I will not crib at it, provided its purpose is to give us improved educational facilities and a college of technology as well.

God knows, we would need a university down there.

We need a great many things down there.

Graduates could do with post-graduate courses.

One could say the Parliamentary Secretary is beyond educating.

Taking Limerick into consideration, taking into account the fact that we have the finest agricultural hinterland in Europe, transport facilities in the port of Limerick and nearby Shannon Airport, taking all these natural advantages of the Limerick region into account and looking at the results of the five-year Programme for Economic Expansion, I say without fear of contradiction that we have in the Limerick region the worst case of underdevelopment in Europe. Therefore, the colossal amount of money spent over the past six or seven years has not gone in solving the unemployment problem or the emigration problem. It has not gone in providing more housing. Very little was spent in my constituency. It has gone on all types of foolish schemes.

Swimming pools, skating rinks, luxury hotels.

The Deputy is against those?

Civic centres.

The Deputy is against the swimming pools and the new hotels? That is interesting. It is on record.

Maybe the Parliamentary Secretary would allow the Deputy to make his own speech?

Palatial embassies. As I say, the money is gone and we are looking for more.

Although everything that could be said about the Budget has been said, it might be no harm to say a few words about the turnover tax. A great deal has been said about it but nobody seems to know how it will work out. The Taoiseach said he hopes the force of competition will prevent the charge being passed on to the consumer. If that is so, it will mean the extermination of the small shopkeeper because the average family grocer is working on a very narrow margin. As far as I can ascertain, the average margin is ten per cent to 12 per cent and a 2½ per cent tax on a ten per cent profit is equivalent to a 25 per cent tax on profits. I believe this turnover tax must be passed on to the consumer if the small shopkeeper is to survive. If it is not passed on to the consumer and the force of competition keeps prices down, we shall see the complete clearing out of the small shopkeepers and an increase in the number of supermarkets.

In regard to the increase in corporation profits tax, it is a bad thing because so many industries and large businesses have, particularly over the past year or two, responded to the Government's call for greater efficiency and modernisation of methods. If this increase in corporation profits tax is to mean a lower amount of profit available for ploughing back into the business, it will have disastrous results.

Out of all the controversy and all the confusion which has been created by this Budget, one significant fact emerges: the way in which people have reacted to the Budget demonstrates very clearly the political maturity of our people. It shows the ability of the ordinary voter to penetrate the veneer of bluff and propaganda and to make a critical appraisal in the light of hard facts and practical results. This is a sobering thought for this or any future Government. It means that henceforth the performance of any Government will be judged on the results and not on promises. I welcome that prospect and I also look forward to seeing this political maturity very forcibly demonstrated in the forthcoming by-election.

Since when does the Parliamentary Secretary direct you whom to call on?

The Parliamentary Secretary did not direct me. When the Deputy who has just spoken sat down, I looked at the Government benches and as nobody offered, I called on Deputy Donnellan.

Why is that?

It would not be normal to call the Deputy immediately after a Fine Gael speaker.

That is all right. The Parliamentary Secretary tried to direct you, all the same.

The Parliamentary Secretary did not.

Why did he point at Deputy Donnellan?

It does not matter whom he pointed at. The Parliamentary Secretary did not offer and I called on Deputy Donnellan, a Fine Gael Deputy having spoken.

Mr. Donnellan

I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for allowing me in. It is no harm to leave Limerick for a little while and go across the Shannon to Galway. I am glad the Minister is in the House because I wish to refer to the turnover tax. This tax was certainly a brainwave on the part of whatever civil servants got the idea because the Minister for Finance and the Parliamentary Secretary beside him do not know how this tax will work or how it will be collected. Some Deputies over there say the consumer will pay it; others say the shopkeeper will pay it. The Parliamentary Secretary last week said it would not be paid by anybody. Therefore I should like to know from the Minister who exactly will pay it.

As regards the small businessman in the town, for every pound's worth he sells must he collect sixpence, keep an account of it and give it back to the Government? If the consumer buys 10/- worth of goods, will he be charged an extra 3d.? Will he be charged an extra three farthings to buy his 5/- worth? Will he be charged an extra halfpenny to buy half-acrown's worth? May I refer to the farthing, as Deputy Egan did? Will he be charged three farthings on it? That is what I want to know.

Is it the consumer who must pay this tax or must the small businessman make a tax gatherer of himself? Will he collect it or will he pay it himself? Certainly, the Minister has not made it clear whether it is the consumer or whether it is the businessman who will pay the tax or collect it. As far as I am concerned, it is ridiculous to ask either one or the other to do so. The simple reason is that it cannot definitely be collected on the amounts of money. Say a man buys 2/6d. worth of stuff. Has he to pay a halfpenny or three farthings or has he not, or does the businessman keep an account of it and pay it himself? I want to know which of them is to do it. I regret that either of them have to do it.

I am sorry Deputy Kitt, my sparring partner down in East Galway, is not in the House at the moment. I wonder if Deputy Kitt thinks of the business people of Dunmore, Milltown, Mountbellew, Tuam, Glenamaddy or Ballygar? Does Deputy Kitt think that each and every one of them—small business people as they are now; I regret to say quite a lot of them nearly on the way out—should become unpaid tax gatherers for the Government or does he think that the consumers should pay? Personally, I do not think they should.

The self-same thing applies to Deputy Millar's area, which is my own as well. Take the people of Ballinasloe, the people of Ahascragh, the people of Athenry. I wonder if Deputy Millar believes they should pay this tax? The self-same thing applies to my good friend, Deputy Carty. Does he think the business people of Loughrea, Clarenbridge, Gort, should become tax gatherers for this Government or that the consumers should be forced to pay this 2½ per cent tax? The Minister himself does not know. He has not committed himself, mind you, on whether it should be the consumers or the business people.

I regret very much that this tax was ever brought into this House. I say it was a brainwave of some civil servant who did not know what he was doing and cared a damn sight less about what he was doing. He had no interest in the rural areas when he suggested putting on a tax of that description. I am quite sure that the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary beside him, will fully agree with me that the small business people in the small towns are at their wits' end to make ends meet and by putting on this tax, probably the big business man can wipe them out. Probably he will be in the position that he can pay this tax himself. If he does that, as he probably will, will he not wipe out these small people?

What will the weekly or monthly turnover of these small people the Deputy is talking about be?

Mr. Donnellan

Well, I would not know exactly.

Mr. Donnellan

Say a turnover of £500 a year—the worst of them. The smallest of them would have a turnover of £500 a year. Is it fair that they should be taxed? I do not think it is. It is unreasonable that it should happen. My point is that the bigger businessman will probably pay this 2½ per cent himself. He will not do it for the good of the people generally but, by so doing, he will put the smaller man out of business completely. I would ask the Minister to reconsider this 2½ per cent tax. If the Minister arranged that it should be put on the wholesaler, it would be much easier for the Government to collect it. The Government will get roughly £10½ million out of it.

I believe the idea of the Government in doing this is that next year they will have a surplus. This is my view about it. I may be wrong. They will have a surplus. They can give certain concessions and then it will give them a good opportunity to go to the country. I would ask them not to adopt that attitude but to be fair and honest with the people. Therefore, I urge the Minister to consider withdrawing this 2½ per cent tax or else to tell us straight who will be responsible for the collecting and payment of it.

There is one thing evident from the debate on this Budget. It has shown in no uncertain fashion that particularly the main Opposition Party here, Fine Gael, are completely bereft of any ideas, plans or constructive criticism and in fact are devoid of any programme for the future of the country in the position they occupy at the present time. Ninety-five per cent of the Opposition speakers in this debate, which is now drawing to a close, dealt solely with the effects of the turnover tax. Surely it is an extraordinary reflection on the so-called political maturity which my colleague in Limerick, Deputy T. O'Donnell, suggests exists now in this country, that some members of this House are so devoid of ideas and so unable to express themselves on any facet of the whole economic programme of the Government that the only matter to which they can devote their attention is the turnover tax?

On the turnover tax itself, has there ever been a greater campaign of misrepresentation throughout the country —all aimed, of course, at the coming by-election in Dublin North-East? To come out in the open, as the Minister says, when you have this tax of 2½ per cent, someone will have to pay. That is quite obvious. The money will have to be got somewhere. The source is 2½ per cent on established turnover and it is estimated that in a full financial year, it will yield a little more than £10 million. It is completely dishonest in the first instance for these speakers to suggest that this turnover tax will sound the death knell of the small shopkeepers. Perhaps the Fine Gael Party and some members of the Labour Party may succeed for a short while in causing utter confusion in the minds of the small shopkeepers throughout the country. There is no question of doubt about it: these shopkeepers as a result of this campaign of misrepresentation are worried and certainly they have every reason to be worried when they see the Opposition papers in particular quoting in extenso the speeches of leaders of the Opposition Parties.

No one has any desire to go over these matters in detail again. When I asked Deputy Donnellan what he considered to be a small shopkeeper in his constituency of East Galway, the rough figure he suggested was a turnover of £500 per annum. If my memory serves me correctly, the Minister in the Budget Statement specifically cited the case of a small shopkeeper with £100 per month or £1,200 per annum turnover and said that in fact he would be liable only for a tax of 17/6d. per month and thereafter 3d. per pound on the next £50. This Budget does not in any way sound the death knell of the small shopkeeper. Comparatively speaking, this Budget does not in any way injure the small shopkeeper. In fact, it is my personal opinion, from making a study of the position, that the smaller shopkeeper, due to the small tax which he or she will contribute, will in fact be in a definitely advantageous position because with a very slight tax, there will be no question of passing on anything to his or her customers. That is a fact.

One of the choices facing the Government in framing this Budget was to allow things to stand as they are at present. Another was to advance under all headings of national endeavour. That was the choice with which the Government were faced.

Surely the Minister did not say it was going to enter the capital development fund.

It is quite obvious that the Deputy does not understand the point I am making.

Explain it and maybe I will understand it better.

Are there some among us—evidently there are—who do not want to step up further and increase the tempo of our economic development and our economic advancement? If there are—and by their speeches they exist on the Opposition benches of this House —it is an extraordinary frame of mind but it is an attitude which they are entitled to adopt: "Preserve the status quo; let us stand as we are.” They say the Budget deficit was something under £5 million but remember that the Coalition deficit in their last year of office was more than £6 million. The Minister for Finance could have preserved that status quo but that is not the policy of this Govvernment or of the Fianna Fáil Party. To illustrate that perhaps a little better, I will answer what I might have considered a hypothetical question when Deputy O'Donnell asked where all the money has gone since 1957.

Singer took it.

That is typical.

You let him out. He gave a good subscription to the fund and you cannot deny it.

This position is far too serious——

It is serious for a lot of people.

The Parliamentary Secretary should be allowed to make his speech.

But I am putting him right.

The people of the country with the political maturity that was mentioned by Deputy O'Donnell expect more from the speeches of the Opposition than what we have heard so far.

They want the brains trust.

No doubt Deputy Sweetman who will be speaking shortly will make clear the Fine Gael viewpoint which we have not heard up to now.

Harking back to the fact that we could have stayed as we were, the buoyancy of the revenue might have made sure that we would not have a deficit in the coming year and taxation would more or less remain lower than the figure we are seeking. But look at the position regarding social welfare, for example. Back in 1957, current Government expenditure on social welfare was in the order of £25 million and in the financial year 1963-64, the Estimate has risen to £28 million. Is it suggested by the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party——

The purchasing power of the £ has gone down since then.

It has not gone down that much. Is it suggested by Fine Gael and the Labour Party that we should not have increased those benefits by this £3 million? Another important point to remember is that of the estimated yield of £10 million from the turnover tax, approximately £4½ million goes in social welfare increases for old age pensioners, children's allowances and other benefits. Nearly 50 per cent of the total £10 million goes in social welfare payments. I have pointed out that we have raised the cost of social welfare services from the 1957 figure of £25 million to £28 million, and we are not ashamed of it.

Perhaps the Opposition want us to leave the education provision alone. Do they object to our increasing it from £13 million in the 1957 Estimate to nearly £20 million? If they want us not to spend that extra £6 million, will they say so? At least they would be honest if they did. That is not the policy of the Government.

We realise that one of the major problems, as has been more than hinted at by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Education, is the absolute necessity for a revolution in the education system whereby as quickly as possible in the future every child will at least be given a means of livelihood which will remove him from the category of a serf or a slave by post-primary education, by easier access to secondary education and in certain instances to university education, and particularly by the advancement of what I think the House will agree is far too slow, vocational education and higher technological education generally. We make no apology for showing where portion of this tax will go.

We point out, then, that the health services have gone up from 1957 by another £3 million. There have been certain advances with regard to the health services. A Committee of the House is sitting to examine the entire ramifications of the Health Act, and I sincerely trust that the day is not so far off when its report and recommendation will be given to the House.

The provisions made for agriculture, industry, transport, forestry, fisheries, the Post Office and pensions for the public services have all increased. The difference between ourselves and Fine Gael is this: Fine Gael says that there is no future in Ireland. They have no confidence in Ireland, and consider that as far as this country is concerned all is lost and that nothing possible to keep on to our goals could be done by any Government.

When one is talking about proposals by Governments, it is reasonable for each and every one of us to keep away from too much detail on finance. What is life, one should ask oneself. What do we want here in Ireland? What is the Ireland we seek to achieve? The ambition of each and every member of this House is to have our 32 counties as one entity under one flag, but apart from that, the Ireland we are aiming for, surely, we must get into its proper perspective. Do we want work for all our citizens? The unemployment problem is not solved by any means, though it certainly is a far cry from the figure of 97,000 people in 1957 when we took over. Admittedly we want work for our people, but do we want the country crawling with Dagenhams? The position could get out of hand if that proper perspective I speak of is not secured.

It may sound a long way off the Budget, but I think it will be agreed that under the provisions in the Estimates, I am entitled to refer to one of the most important Bills going through the House—the Town Planning Bill. The Ireland I would like to see will have industrialisation in the proper place with the preservation, above all, of the amenities of our country in the realisation that the be-all and end-all of life here and the absolute goal is not solely money. We are still in a position to have an appreciation of things beautiful, of the arts, culture, drama and so on. That is the Ireland we all should aim for, and that is why I am so enthusiastic about this Vote for Education being so substantially increased. I sincerely trust that in years to come successive Governments and successive Ministers for Finance will ensure that our three priorities will continue to be attacked more vigorously down the years.

First of those is education. I am not going to boast, but we have increased the output of school buildings. Nevertheless, children in certain instances throughout Ireland are being reared and educated in hovels. There is no point in hiding our heads in the sand and denying that. There is a tremendous programme there. I do not think that this is controversial, for everyone will agree on it.

As regards housing, it is quite true that, as Deputy O'Donnell said, not only in Limerick city but in Dublin and other areas, people are living in overcrowded conditions and nearslums. The Minister for Local Government was perfectly right last August before he went to America. Of course there are slums and overcrowded conditions in Limerick and Dublin. I only hope that measures to deal with that problem will be stepped up.

Above all, the amount given in social welfare benefits is not at all adequate. I sincerely trust that with increased prosperity and increased productivity and the raising of the standard of living, the old age pensioners, the widows and unemployment assistance beneficiaries will get substantial rises, and not the annual increases, which have been the pattern up to now, of a shilling or two. They each got half-a-crown on this occasion, plus the increases in children's allowances.

I should like to see the amount paid in social welfare benefits tied to some wage rate. We have all heard the cliché particularly coming up to Christmas time, that if you offer these people a day's work, they will not take it, that all they want to do is stand around and hold up the bookmaker's office. I remember, when I was Mayor of Limerick, meeting five to six hundred people who were looking for work and on no occasion did I come across people who would not take work if you offered it to them. People called to me time and time again seeking work.

The first duty of the Government is, and it is the Government's responsibility, to do all in their power to provide work but, if they do not achieve the aim of full employment or an approach to full employment, then the less well-off members of the community must be catered for in a more realistic and more generous manner than we are doing at the present time with the limited resources at our disposal.

My colleague in Limerick, Deputy O'Donnell, referred to the housing position. I do not want to weary the House with details and statistics but he quoted the figures for Limerick in 1956 and 1957 and the same pattern would be typical of the country as a whole. We had the figures for 1956 all right and then the graph went down at the end of 1957. It continued to go down in 1958 and in 1959, it went up again and is still at an increasingly high level. I do not want to labour the point but I hope that Deputy Sweetman will refer to this important social matter in his speech. There were 8,000 skilled tradesmen who fled from this country between 1957 and 1959. The figures I am quoting here are not my own. They are obtainable in the Statistical Abstract under the different categories, carpenters, bricklayers, masons and plasterers. They went, and unfortunately they have not come back.

To what would they come back?

That is what you are up against. We are trying to ensure that we will get them back again.

If you could stop their brothers going, you would do well. There are 40,000 of them going every year.

I wonder what a young person of 22 or 23 years of age who comes up to the public gallery thinks when he hears this kind of thing.

Facts are facts and you cannot escape them.

The Parliamentary Secretary is in possession.

I will give way to the Deputy if he will quote the figures.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy will have an opportunity of replying if he has not already spoken.

Deputy Coogan has alleged that the latest emigration figure is 40,000. If he wants to quote these figures, I will give him an opportunity.

If the Parliamentary Secretary is going to sit down, I will stand up.

I will give way to Deputy Coogan to give him an opportunity to quote the figures.

Acting Chairman

The Parliamentary Secretary is in possession and the Deputy will have an opportunity of replying later.

Over the 12 months ended 28th February, 1963, the emigration figures, at 12,200, were the lowest since the war. I am sure that a mistake of 27,800 would not unduly worry Deputy Coogan.

It would not worry you.

I would like to briefly dispose of the housing position. Deputy Sweetman, when Minister for Finance and when a crisis arose, called all the county managers together and told them the position.

And I told them what they could rely on for the following year. Will the Parliamentary Secretary get the minute in that regard from his colleague and put it on the Table of the House? I told them that they could rely on more money than they actually spent.

Suppose I am told that I can rely on £10,000 and when I go to look for it, it is not there, what am I to do?

It was there and it was paid out. In some cases, they did not spend it at all.

The Deputy referred to the financial year 1957-58 when we had taken over office.

That meeting was held in January or February of 1957— I do not remember which.

This Government took office in March 1957 and supplied the money. The position was that a financial crisis arose. I am not going into the reasons for it, the Suez crisis and other matters alleged by Deputy Sweetman. The position was that as a result of that county managers' conference, planning for the future came to a standstill. In housing schemes, to bring to a standstill the acquisition of land and development of sewerage schemes and water supplies, the planning of the houses themselves, the surveys of the land, can result in a delay of anything from 18 to 30 months in getting things moving again. That is what happened. You cannot just press a button when the planning has ended and start off again. You must start again from scratch. That is the trouble. Some 8,000 building operatives left the country according to the Statistical Abstract between 1957 and 1959. That is one of the reasons why things are only coming back to normal at present. The position would not have arisen at all and it would not have been necessary for Deputy Sweetman to call this conference of county and city managers in January, 1957, had he taken note of the warnings issued to him by the present Minister for Finance and the present Tánaiste.

What was the meeting called for?

To tell the county managers what the position was.

And what they could expect to receive in the following year.

Yes. I am speaking of my own local authority only and our city manager in Limerick reported back to us that he would have to cut substantially the programme envisaged by perhaps the more enthusiastic members of the council. Whatever the Minister for Finance told him, the position was that there was no money there. Deputy Sweetman may shake his head and deny that but I know what I am talking about.

The Parliamentary Secretary should know but does not.

The building industry then was in a critical position. Things were so bad that Deputy Sweetman, as Minister for Finance, had to allow Dublin and Cork Corporations access to the Local Loans Fund for the first time.

Dublin and Cork Corporations will be interested to know that the Parliamentary Secretary criticises that position because they wanted it for a long time and it had always been refused by my predecessors.

That is not so.

That is true. Ask the Minister and his advisers will tell him the position.

His advisers will tell him no such thing because it was not so.

His advisers will tell him the truth.

Yesterday a figure was given by an Opposition Deputy for large issues from the Local Loans Fund. Heretofore, access had not been given to Cork and Dublin Corporations to this Fund and the reason why Deputy Sweetman, as Minister, had to allow them in was that they were unable and would have been unable to raise the money by public issue as had hitherto been done. That is what increased issues from the Local Loans Fund at that time.

Deputy Timmons knows about Dublin Corporation. Do not embarrass him.

We could not get the money.

Perhaps Deputy Sweetman would tell us why things were so bad in regard to the administration of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, 1898, that not alone was there no money but in desperation— I am in a difficult position, a Cheann Chomhairle, because due to the position you occupy at present, I cannot refer to you——

The Parliamentary Secretary may not refer to the Chair.

"The then Minister for Local Government" is the phrase the Parliamentary Secretary wants.

Acting Chairman

The Chair has no objection to the then Minister for Local Government being criticised by the Parliamentary Secretary.

The then Minister for Local Government was willing and keen to do his best but he had to take his riding instructions from the then Minister for Finance and he did not come under starter's orders because, not only was there no money—and Deputy Sweetman will have to refer to this—but the suggestion or the great masterplan of Fine Gael who occupied the key posts in the Coalition Government, was a system of guarantees with the building societies. They forgot that the building societies had no money, either. At any rate, it did not work. This is not a debate on the Estimate for Local Government and I just wanted to clear those points and have them on record in regard to housing generally.

I want to point out to Deputy Sweetman that the criticisms made by the present Taoiseach, by the Minister for Finance and by the Tánaiste of the imposition by Deputy Sweetman of the levies in 1956 arose not from the fact that the levies were imposed. They were bad enough and brought heavy unemployment as a result, but it was the failure of the Minister, Deputy Sweetman, in allowing matters to drift and not taking remedial measures earlier that provoked the criticism. We had taken over from one Coalition Government in 1951 when a balance of payments crisis existed of £61.6 million and in 1955, the balance of payments after the Coalition had been just one year in office, was £35.5 million which ran on in 1956 to £14 million.

When Fianna Fáil came up against such crises they took immediate measures. They put the serious position before the people and relied on the understanding of the people to appreciate the necessity for the measures that had to be taken. To my colleague and to other members of Fine Gael generally, I would say: Is there any chance they might lose their pessimism and see some bit of blue appearing through the so-called dark economic clouds? Are all their skies grey? Is there nothing in the future—

The North Dublin by-election.

—to give confidence and hope? I do not know if Deputy O'Donnell from my constituency is typical of the attitude and mentality generally of Fine Gael but if he is, we do not have an Opposition Party any longer. He criticised the building of so-called luxury hotels. I am interested to have on record that Deputy O'Donnell is against the building of these hotels in Limerick.

It is a matter of priority. I would be more interested in the building of houses in Limerick than in the building of luxury hotels.

That was flogged to death long ago. They are two different things. In a speech recently, Deputy O'Donnell also criticised the building of the luxury hotel in Limerick by Intercontinental Hotels. One hotel is being built in Cork, one in Dublin, one in Limerick. I do not want to boast but it is thanks to me that the hotel was built there. There will be more about that at a more appropriate time.

Of course, it happens to be untrue—the selection of Limerick as one of the sites.

What is untrue?

That the Parliamentary Secretary was responsible.

Without any shadow of doubt, yes.

I happen to know something about that.

I do not want to be betting fivers here every week. I could not afford it.

No, not at the rate at which you lose them.

Let us leave it at this—I was responsible.

Acting Chairman

Perhaps it could be decided on another occasion and the Parliamentary Secretary would get back to the Budget?

Everyone in Limerick knows who brought the hotel there. Furthermore, I remember reading anonymous letters—always written by Fine Gael—to the effect that this so-called hotel of Deputy O'Malley's was a white elephant. The same letter suggested that Bord na gCon's coming to Limerick, which we got, too, was another white elephant.

I know nothing about Bord na gCon but I do know about the hotel.

We will leave that aside and Deputy Sweetman will tell us about it in his speech and tell us who brought it to Limerick.

No, he will not, but he will contradict the Parliamentary Secretary when he is not telling the truth.

That will make interesting reading. Let us leave it at that. Possibly Deputy Sweetman thinks he is correct and that I am wrong. So be it.

The Parliamentary Secretary, I imagine, knows why I think it.

I know who handled the matter.

For Intercontinental?

I will tell you afterwards.

Acting Chairman

Perhaps we could get back to the Budget?

I was dealing with the mentality of Deputy O'Donnell. He deprecates the building of this luxury hotel now and he says there are other hotels in Limerick that have spent a lot of money doing up their premises and asks why should the State contribute towards the cost. Does he not appreciate that the estimated increased injection to the turnover of the economy in Limerick will be of the order of £500,000 per annum of new business and does he appreciate that according to statements made by the directors of these hotels, business coming in will be entirely new business and will not cut across in any way the amount enjoyed or earned by the existing hoteliers?

Surely Deputy O'Donnell is not critical of the hundreds of people who will directly benefit from the construction of this £¾ million hotel? Surely he will appreciate the fact that benefits will accrue to the former through the sale of produce to the hotel? Surely Deputy O'Donnell will understand that it is not alone this new hotel that received a subsidy from State funds or semiState bodies from voted money from this House but that every other hotel that spent money on new bedrooms also enjoyed this subsidy? Let us be fair about the matter. I want to know why Deputy O'Donnell also objects to the spending of money on a swimming pool. Perhaps he will say that this is not the time to embark on the construction of a £110,000 swimming pool. I am sorry Deputy O'Donnell is against the swimming pool project.

I am against luxury hotels, palatial buildings, while the housing situation in Limerick is as it is. There is a shortage of tradesmen.

If everything is to close down until we solve our housing programme, that would bring business to a standstill. I can assure Deputy O'Donnell that in Limerick, Dublin and other cities, and particularly in some inland towns, the young people are crying out for swimming pools. A swimming pool is a great advantage. The provision of swimming pools is encouraged, logically, by the Minister for Health. The matter is administered by Local Government and encouraged by the Department of Health, for obvious reasons.

The swimming pool will be of great benefit to the young fellow and his wife who want a house.

To the families living in one room.

The rules of the House would not allow me to describe in adequate fashion the suggestion——

Acting Chairman

Neither do they entitle speakers to go into detail that would be much more appropriate to the Estimate for Local Government.

I would point out, with respect, that my colleague, Deputy O'Donnell, not only gave statistics from 1955 to the latest date for which figures are available in respect of housing in the State generally but went into great detail in respect of the number of houses built and the number of men employed in Limerick city.

Acting Chairman

Of course, the trouble is that two wrongs do not make a right. We had better get back to the Budget.

I do not want the broth spoiled by too many wrong cooks. I want to get the facts on the records of the House. However, I bow to your ruling on the matter.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins spoke here yesterday. Her speech was typical Fine Gael propaganda, but it was interesting for all that and was delivered in an excellent and lucid manner. She made one statement which set a kind of headline for many Fine Gael speakers. I refer to the suggestion that, due to the Minister's acceptance of a recommendation made by the Commission of Inquiry into Income Tax in relation to the letting of land, houses, flats or rooms, a widow, Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins said, with three or four children would now find herself in a serious plight because her financial circumstances would be drastically worsened. Deputy Sweetman appreciates, of course, that that will not be the position.

I am still trying to get some information from the Minister about how the tax will work. He could not explain it the other day.

I will tell the Deputy now.

I should prefer the Minister to give the information rather than the Parliamentary Secretary.

The Minister will deal with the point when he comes to reply.

I am talking about the unfortunate widow with the three or four children.

The Parliamentary Secretary must not edge in on Deputy Paddy Burke's preserve.

It was made clear by the Minister that Deputies are wrong in saying this tax is an imposition on a person such as the unfortunate widow to whom Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins referred. If this tax were to be applied in the way suggested, I should be the first to criticise it, because I know that a large percentage of widows and elderly people, depend for a livelihood on the letting of accommodation. This suggestion is but another misconception which has gone abroad because of the unfortunately dishonest propaganda of the Fine Gael Party.

We must be very powerful.

The Deputy has a great many papers and the people read them. You would be surprised at the unfortunate people who believe what some Fine Gael speakers say.

A great many people believe what they read in the Irish Press unfortunately, too.

As the Minister has pointed out, unless the person in question is subject to tax, this new proposal will not affect him or her in any way.

I was amazed when, after the Minister's opening statement and after Deputy Sweetman had replied, Deputy Norton spoke for the Labour Party and dealt with nothing except the turnover tax. There was no suggestion that he welcomed the £10 million expected yield in a full year from this tax. There was no suggestion that he welcomed the fact that £4½ million of this yield would go to social welfare beneficiaries. He never adverted to the fact that there will be a yield of £3½ million from the corporation profits tax. No one on the Opposition benches lauded the Minister, not even Deputy T. O'Donnell, who represents a predominantly rural constituency, for putting an end to the racket whereby professional and business people took land as a sideline to their business or profession in order to evade paying tax.

The fact that an end is put to this practice now is, I think, a good thing for the country generally. It should be welcomed by the farming community, by the young farmers, by the very loquacious farming associations. Deputy Sweetman makes a very good attempt at times, not quite successfully perhaps, at being factual. I trust he will not permit the present propaganda trend to continue. Fine Gael speakers misrepresent the facts because they have been given a political pep talk by Deputy Dillon and Deputy Sweetman. I do not think any of them has read this Budget. Had they read it, had they listened to the Minister—that may have been difficult because of the appalling acoustics——

"I want money," he said.

I want money, too, to correct the acoustics here.

If the Parliamentary Secretary could teach the Minister not to mumble, that would be better than improving the acoustics.

It was not a question of mumbling. We will be improving the acoustics here.

The Parliamentary Secretary will disimprove them.

Deputy Dillon and Deputy Sweetman gave a pep talk to their backbenchers, with Dublin North-East on the horizon.

I explained, of course, what the Budget meant to my colleagues as I am sure Fianna Fáil would explain it to their Party. I wonder did the Minister explain it to the Fianna Fáil Party down in the Party Room.

The position is we know Deputy Sweetman gave a biassed——

——account of this Budget and told the backbenchers certain points to stress. If Deputy Sweetman is responsible for some of the economic theories expounded by Deputy Rooney last night, he has a good deal to answer for. As far as Fine Gael speakers generally are concerned, they have really no proper conception of this Budget and I sincerely hope that, when the Minister concludes tonight, they will listen to him and then rectify the misrepresentation of which they have been guilty.

Deputy Barrett talked about the turnover tax affecting newsboys.

That is what the Minister said himself. He said the newspapers would inform the Government how many newspapers they gave to the newsboys and it was no concern of the Minister's how the newsboys collected the tax. That is in the Official Report of 23rd April.

The Minister did not say that at all.

He did say it. I will go out and bring in the Official Report and quote.

I did not say that.

I will bring in the debate and quote it.

I should be glad if the Deputy would.

It is ridiculous to talk about newsboys paying a turnover tax.

Better leave that statement alone now. It was a bad one.

Deputy T. O'Donnell comes from my own constituency. He criticised the proposed civic centre in Limerick. I did not think that would occasion any controversy. The Taoiseach said recently that many of our city and town centres are in an appalling condition and require rebuilding. There is a social problem there in that there is no point in denuding the centre of these cities and having the shops and shopkeepers losing quite a source of revenue. It is a problem that will have to be tackled in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and elsewhere.

I wish to refer to the cost of the provision of swimming pools and other public projects in the past. In 1926, according to the local papers in Limerick, a local association member said: We cannot bear any further impost" and in 1928: "This would mean the end of the shopping community generally." This is the trend down the years. No matter what constructive projects are put up, there will always be a certain section of the community, particularly, I am sorry to say, those who with the increased productivity and growth of the country generally benefit substantially, are not prepared to share a penny with the less well-off members of the community.

Another cliché expressed by Fine Gael speakers has been the ever-increasing cost of administration of the Civil Service. What Deputy O'Donnell must bear in mind is that any increases are the result of the increase in the number of new proposals by the Government. Naturally, it was necessary that extra staff be employed to run these new boards or new sections of Departments. It must not be forgotten that civil servants have to live, too, and that they are workers just the same as everyone else who is classified as such. I am satisfied that when Deputy O'Donnell looks into the background of the increased number of employees and the increased cost of administration, he will admit that not only is a tight rein on recruitment increase being held but the increases are most reasonable.

I should like to say a little word to my friends on the Labour benches. Sometimes they look astounded on the Government benches and they say: "How is it we got only one seat in Dublin? How is it that the Irish people, the working man, all sections of the community, are represented by the Fianna Fáil Party. The good sense, the common sense and the logic of the man in the street——

The nonsense.

Is the Deputy suggesting that the voter is incompetent or incapable of making up his mind? The reason for our success in the political life of this country is that, Fianna Fáil can, at Government level and at Party level, represent every section of the community, the small farmer, the big farmer, the tradesman, the professional man and the business man. That is the beauty of it. Then of course with such interests represented and having a Government with such an appreciation of equality, particularly, the greatest advantage of such a Party is the stability in the value of the £. To bring it to its logical and ridiculous conclusion, there is no point in increasing wages by £80 or £100 a week.

The Minister's summary of the Budget in his opening statement and the recent pronouncements by the Taoiseach indicate that our whole policy is one of continuing advancement. The only trouble is that we are not advancing as quickly as we would like. However, there again the difference between ourselves and Fine Gael is that at least we aim at the stars. Fine Gael still wail at the weeping wall, are still the Jeremiahs, who see no future in Ireland and suggest to the younger people: "Let us get out of here; there is no future in Ireland."

Deputy Dillon when making his major contribution to the Budget debate made an extraordinary statement. In so far as he is Leader of the main Opposition Party, one would have thought he would have made a statesmanlike speech or one worthy of the Leader of the main Opposition Party. He candidly confessed that he would welcome and be glad of the opportunity to take over the leadership of the Government, were it entrusted to him. I do not know how he would achieve that. Perhaps Deputy Sweetman would enlighten us as to the political alignment for which he hopes. Labour, evidently, will never again join a Coalition, or will they? Fine Gael will have no truck with Labour, Clan na Talmhan or any other Party. We know how we stand. We are not dictated to by anybody. We are a Party and will continue to be a single Party but surely for the new voters, the young people, it is a reasonable question.

There are none of them left. They have flown out of the country.

It is a reasonable request to make. I want to refer to one paragraph of Deputy Dillon's speech on this Budget. At columns 268 and 269 of the Official Report, he said:

The deficit on the current Budget is £4,857,000—

It was over £6,000,000 in his last period.

I should also compare like with like, if I were you.

What is the "like with like?"

Think about it and look at the figures.

Deputy Dillon continued:

—and that is all in the context of the fact that our imports are steadily rising and our exports are declining.

This is the point I want to come to, to show again the pessimistic mentality of Fine Gael:

Not only is that true but the rate of increase in the gross national product at constant market prices is steadily declining.

Deputy Sweetman nods his head. To prove it is steadily declining, these figures are taken from the Economic Statistics.

Table 12 B.

I shall give the Deputy the page, not the Table itself.

Page 31. I have it here.

Deputy Dillon said:

Not only is that true but the rate of increase in the gross national product at constant market prices is steadily declining.

Deputy Sweetman nods in agreement. Then the figures given are:

The increase in 1959 was 4.9;— I presume, per cent.

—in 1960, it was 5.9; in 1961, it was 3.8; and in 1962, it has declined to 2.5.

How much can people attempt to twist the truth? Is it not, in fact, evident, even from his own figures, without his observations, that the gross national product at constant market prices is annually increasing?

And the trend is decreasing.

And the trend is decreasing? I think that this is an excellent example of Fine Gael thinking. In 1959, the increase over the previous year was 4.9 per cent. In 1960, it was 5.9 per cent over the previous year, plus the 4.9. Coming back to last year, 1962, the increase was 2.5 over all these percentages "plus," from 1959 onwards. So much for that.

I did mention Deputy Sweetman's pep talk to Deputy Rooney and others and the play that has been made on this alleged retrospective punitive legislation in the corporation profits tax. Fine Gael speakers have mentioned the word "unconstitutional": that the tax was most unjust; the like of it has never happened before. It does not make sense to think that a Minister would propose in this House an unconstitutional measure whereby the Revenue Commissioners would be empowered to go back over a period of 12 months or more—I think to 1st January, 1962. Does every man, woman and child not know that if you or I pay income tax, it is assessed on what has been earned over the previous 12 months, and longer in some cases? This is another example of the misrepresentation of which I speak.

These little interesting observations and asides of mine will, I think, show what we have to put up with. The serious point is that if the Fine Gael Party themselves do not understand this Budget and have not gone to the trouble of reading it——

The Minister does not understand it.

Well, they do not understand it and it is very serious to allow them to make speeches directed towards the unfortunate people of the country, particularly the small shopkeepers——

You did not say one thing about the Budget.

——to upset them and to suggest to them that it is the end of their source of livelihood. That is not fair; it is not reasonable. It is ridiculous to suggest that it will be like the Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication Scheme or the warble fly inspectors and that you will have a horde of inspectors visiting every shop in the country. That is not correct.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say how many would be visiting the shops?

The Parliamentary Secretary will tell the Deputy this much. This is the most economic and simplest form of tax that could be, and has ever been, collected. What is more, to answer Deputy Harte's question, it may well be that no inspector at all might call or need call.

Is that a guarantee?

I am giving you the guarantee of what I say here now to be true. It may well be——

Ah—"may well be".

I did not change my phraseology.

You twisted it.

I did not twist it.

You can do the Madison next.

I know who can twist and he is on that side of the House. It may well be that there are businesses where no inspector might ever call.

"May well be"—"might".

There might be no inspector. It is so simple. Take the small shopkeeper. He adds up what he takes in cash and, at the end of the month, if he takes in £100 turnover, this is what he does. He fills up a line, one line, and he posts it off to the Revenue Commissioners with 17/6d.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary really mean that it is as simple as that?

And where does the small shopkeeper get the money to recoup himself for writing the line?

Does the Deputy accept that it is as simple as that?

I do not know, but you cannot get over the second leg of it.

I am stressing the fact that these are unjustifiable and unreasonable Fine Gael calculations which have upset everyone, including the small shopkeepers. I am telling you what the facts are. There will be no hordes of inspectors; there will be no hounding by inspectors. The inspector will appear only if it is suspected that anyone is acting "hooky". Surely Deputy Harte or any other Deputy would not condone some people getting away with tax evasion and others not. That is the only time you will have inspectors appearing on the horizon. It could well be that you could go through your business for many months, if not for a year or more, before you would see one of them. I am glad I am making an impression on Deputies.

You are not—you overestimate yourself.

As an entertainer, you are.

Deputy Sweetman has given a pep talk on the Budget.

You would want one and a couple of pep pills, too.

I understand that Deputy Rooney when coming in here is told he will deal with such and such a point but he has to deal with everything. I am told that Deputy O'Donnell will deal with housing——

If the Parliamentary Secretary will let me, I will repeat it now.

What I said to my Party.

In a few minutes, you can say it. There has been so much misrepresentation over the past weeks about this it has evidently caused such a furore among Fine Gael Deputies that it is as well that we should look at this in a dispassionate manner and understand the simplicity of the proposition and the ease of collecting the tax. There will be no hounding of individuals, no inspectors breathing down their necks, and mark you, there will be no detailed forms, no complicated forms, to be filled in.

Will the computer do it?

It will do a lot of the work.

How many extra inspectors did PAYE bring in? Two thousand. Is that not a fact? You cannot deny it?—2,000 with their staffs.

Will the Deputy not be talking?

I am talking of what is on the record of this House and you cannot deny it. You would like to deny it.

You are about 1,000 out.

No, and we will rub your nose in that.

You will not.

We will rub your nose in it.

I will not take any impudence from you.

You are only a Deputy here.

Another source of misrepresentation is in the speeches made, in the provincial papers in particular detail, by Fine Gael supporters about the order—perhaps stricture as Deputy Sweetman would suggest—to the banks to disclose information. The Deputy was appalled by this, as his followers suggested they were, but remember where the recommendation came from. Do not forget either who set up the Commission.

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would do me the honour of reading my remarks on this on the Vote on Account this year.

I read them. I was on this question of the edict or the fact that the Government proposed to take the necessary measures to ascertain certain facts about deposits in banks. Perhaps you will allow me to recall that in his Budget Statement the Minister said that this section was to be included in the Finance Bill following this recommendation by the Income Tax Commission which would require banks and other financial institutions to make returns in relation to deposits held by Irish residents. The return, except for current account, will be one in respect of interest accruing rather than amounts on deposit—and these are the important words—and will be sought only where interest exceeds £15 a year. At one per cent, that would require £1,500 to be deposited.

I must congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his arithmetic.

Thank you. Surely that is not unreasonable. I myself can see let-out clauses and I have no doubt the Revenue Commissioners will tighten up on those let-out clauses. Again in equity, in the approach to equity, if you like, in which this Government framed their Budget, why should any section of the community get away with anything which the rest of us would not? In actual fact, what is this so-called mandate to the banks but a reasonable inquiry in certain circumstances?

I wonder would the Parliamentary Secretary mind if I intervened for a second? You were in the chair, Sir, when the incident happened and before you leave, I should like to say that the Parliamentary Secretary alleged at one stage that I misrepresented the Minister about the tax being levied on newspapers. May I be permitted to get the reference for the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary? I am sorry that the Minister has gone. I quote column 191 of Volume 2022:

Mr. Barrett: I was wondering, if this tax is to apply to the sale of newspapers on street corners, how it is to be levied?

and at column 192, the Minister said:

There are certain difficulties. Deputy Barrett raised the question of the newspaper boy. He gets his newspapers from the newspaper office and whatever they charge him, he knows what to charge his customers. That does not concern us.

The Parliamentary Secretary said it was not true for me to say in the House what I said in respect to newspapers: that this was going to be levied and that the Minister said it did not concern the Government how it would be levied. I think the Parliamentary Secretary might at this stage apologise for his misrepresentation. At column 191, my question was:

I was wondering, if this tax is to apply to the sale of newspapers on street corners, how it is to be levied.

and at column 192, the Minister said:

"Yes, it is to be levied but it does not concern us how.

I do not see why I should apologise. I do not see in fact that my statement is incorrect but in the light of what the Deputy has read—I would hesitate to suggest that he is generally in the right—I would tender my apology if my interpretation was not correct.

And the Minister said he did not say it.

To be fair to the Minister, the quotation now read to the House by Deputy Barrett is entirely different from the allegation I respectfully submit, made in his reference to the Minister.

Not according to my recollection.

I exactly stated it as in the report.

I understand that Deputy Sweetman with an eye on Dublin North-East, will go so far as to inform the House and the public as to what Fine Gael would do, were they in our position, with regard to the method of taxation. That will be a very interesting proposition to listen to. I sincerely trust that he will give us that indication. It is natural and reasonable to criticise this Budget constructively and if you wish, destructively. We have no objection to that. We criticised when we were on those benches. But surely we could ask, and I even appeal to the Deputy and members of the Fine Gael Party to let us know, if in fact Fine Gael have any policy. We know that they have no policy with regard to industry. With regard to agriculture, the only thing talked from one end of Ireland to the other is the £1,000 which Deputy MacEoin spoke about the other day—the £1,000 interest-free loan to the farmer. That is the be-all and end-all of the Fine Gael agricultural policy.

No, no. You do not begrudge that to the farmer, surely?

Someone has to pay for that interest-free loan. Would the corollary not be that housing should be interest-free also because it is an important social adjunct? Why not extend the proposition generally? When they hold up this bait of a £1,000 interest-free loan, where would the money come from, how is it to be funded, who is to pay for it?

As I said, schools, drainage, agriculture, housing, industrial developments —all these require further capital and further assistance to make a major impact on the economy. If Fine Gael have no faith in the future of Ireland, then all the good works we contemplate are wasted as far as they are concerned.

Faith without good works will not work. You will not provide the work.

Deputy Coogan should have faith in his politics as well as in his Bible.

You would want to learn both.

I try to learn and I have to learn a little every day. I sincerely trust that the Fine Gael backbenchers, many of whom are reasonable men, now understand the misrepresentations of the campaign which has been waged. I did not go into the question of housing in detail, or the misrepresentations under the first Coalition. We are looking to the future and trying to learn from the wisdom of age, to be cheered by the sallies of youth. A publication brought out by the first Coalition Ireland is Building, spoke about the men Ireland needs and the wages she pays in industry, and it called on them “to come back to Erin.” They were gone again in four months when everything closed down.

We should also see if we could raise the tenor of these debates in the Dáil. The young people growing up nowadays are anxious to hear constructive speeches.

Why do you not talk about the Budget, instead of this ráiméis?

Deputy Coogan should allow the Parliamentary Secretary to speak without interruption.

The Deputy can make his own brilliant contribution in due course. I sincerely trust that in future the debates in this House will reach a higher standard and that we will not spend our time in recriminations about what happened at such and such a time. It is a difficult thing for supporters of the Government to carry that policy into full effect when the main Opposition Party will not contribute in any way to anything of a forward-looking proposition. All the time we have this wailing, and that is one of the reasons why Fine Gael can never in the foreseeable future attain the position of being a oneparty Government.

I should like in conclusion to refer to the reference made by the Leader of the Opposition to the Minister for Finance in a most hurtful manner. Perhaps it read a lot worse than it sounded. I do not know whether this suggestion that this is the Minister's last Budget is true or not. I have no knowledge of these things, but I do know this—there was no better Minister for Finance in the history of this State since it was founded.

That shows all you know.

I had admiration for Deputy Sweetman when he was Minister for Finance for lots of reasons, and so had others on my side of the House. We had our criticisms of him, too. Having had personal experience, I know of no finer Minister or member of this House than the present holder of the post of Minister for Finance, Deputy Dr. Ryan. I have no inside information on these things, but I do know that it will be a sad day for Ireland should he go, whenever he goes. I wonder whether the young people coming up nowadays, like some of us even on this side of the House, will be able to discharge, or even come near discharging the responsibilities which these men who have gone before us carried.

I want to pay that tribute to a man without whose efforts, and the efforts of others here present, the Tricolour would not be flying so proudly over our public buildings.

Only for Collins.

In conclusion, I sincerely trust that Deputy Sweetman in his contribution will try to deal in a factual way with the points so much misrepresented by his followers.

I have heard Deputy O'Malley speaking as Deputy O'Malley and as Parliamentary Secretary making some good convincing speeches, but never on all the occasions I have heard him speak in this House did I hear him so unhappy, so obviously distressed and so obviously unconvinced of the truth of what he was trying to say. In fact, I could not help feeling very sorry indeed for him, in having, out of loyalty to his Minister, to get up and make a speech defending something he knew was quite indefensible. I will say this, however, for it—it was much more pleasant to listen to than the other speech from his side of the House we heard earlier to-day, when the gentleman, who, I think, is chairman of the Party, seemed to imagine that noise was a substitute for intelligence. At least, the Parliamentary Secretary spoke in restrained and dulcet tones, because that was really all that was pleasing about his speech.

This Budget and, indeed, any Budget should be judged on whether it is going to promote economic growth, whether it is going to provide an opportunity for our people to obtain a permanently better standard of living. That is not merely the test on which this Budget should be judged; it is the test on which any Budget should be judged. On that test, no matter how it is applied, this Budget will be found to be defective. It is a bad Budget, a Budget that does not take proper account of the needs of the time, of our economic position. It is a Budget that does not, in the incidence of its taxation, provide for a fair and just distribution, a Budget that does not in the manner in which it was presented make for that certainty which is obviously one of the requisites for economic growth and progress. It is not going to achieve progress but rather to retard it.

I want to state categorically and, in case the Parliamentary Secretary might misunderstand it, I want to say that this is a political observation, that no Minister for Finance has ever introduced a Budget in this House and shown at the end of that Budget how little the implications and effects of his proposals are really understood. It is extraordinary that, at the end of the Budget, the Minister was able in so small a degree to explain the implications of the proposals he had just announced.

I want to be perfectly clear in stating that we regard this Budget as a bad Budget, not designed at all to meet the needs of the moment. Furthermore, speaking on behalf of Fine Gael and speaking with some responsibility and a little experience in these matters, I would say that this is a Budget we would ask the people to reject and we would ask the Government to give the people an opportunity to reject, in an immediate general election. We ask the people in Dublin North-East to give strength to that call for a general election by their vote in the by-election and we believe that if there were a general election at the moment, the effect of it would be to remove Fianna Fáil from office and to give to Fine Gael the task of forming a Government.

If the people are given the opportunity of having that general election now and if we are given from that general election the task of forming a Government before this Budget goes to its full implementation on 1st November, I want to say clearly on behalf of Fine Gael that we will introduce a different type of Budget, that we will not adopt the Budget introduced by the Minister for Finance on behalf of Fianna Fáil. I am saying that with full deliberation and with complete knowledge of what might be involved, with full appreciation of the difficulties there might be in the introduction of a different Budget in which will not be included retrospective taxation, a Budget which will not include the turnover tax announced by the Minister for Finance to come into operation on 1st November next.

I will come to the reasons why we make that declaration later on but I want it to be clear that I am saying that, with the knowledge I have, another Budget can be brought forward by us if we are given the opportunity now of doing so. It would be a Budget that would provide assistance for our economic growth, one that would ensure that the primary and fundamental principles of taxation were observed, that whatever has to be raised will be taken fairly and evenly from all sections of the people. I am asking, on behalf of Fine Gael, that the people be given the opportunity to judge now and if they are given that opportunity, we will abide by their judgment. If they give us that task, we will carry it out in that way for the reasons I am going to indicate now.

Any Budget should be judged, not on whether it is soft or tough, not on whether it is bad or good in the ordinary popular sense but on whether it is bad or good in the sense of whether it is going to promote economic growth and improve permanently the standard of living of our people. Everybody in this House, every member of Fianna Fáil, every member of Fine Gael and everybody else, would like to increase at once to the maximum degree the amount of assistance that can be given to the weaker sections of the community; but the only reason anybody stands back from immediately doing that, be it Dr. Ryan or anybody else, is that he knows that if more is done at any particular time than the country's economic growth can stand, the effect is not going to be to improve the lot of the weaker sections of the community but rather to ensure that the weaker sections, instead of benefiting, will suffer.

I want to make it clear, having regard to some of the things I heard earlier to-day, that I do not consider that anxiety to promote the welfare of the weaker sections of the community as the prerogative of any one Party in this House. We are all anxious to do it but the various Parties differ as to the way in which it can be done. The aims of most of the Parties are exactly the same but the policies by which those aims may be achieved differ and it is the difference in policy that makes the difference between Parties, not the difference in aims. We all have the same aim, to endeavour to ensure that we will permanently improve the lot of all our people here. When we turn to what occurred in 1962, we must therefore consider it against that background. The first thing in relation to the year 1962 we must look at is the outturn of the current Budget introduced by the Minister last year, an outturn that showed he had a deficit of just under £5 million, a deficit that means that everyone in the country must contribute towards paying for the next 20 years an annual sum of about £240,000 to make it up. Clearly, the Minister was right in assuming that he could not continue with an increased deficit this year. The Taoiseach spoke about deficit financing but the fact is that Budgets have been brought in on a deficit basis in Ireland for the past ten or 12 years, if one considers the method of computation adopted in England.

That is not the point at issue here; it is whether the Minister was wrong last year in having that deficit. He was. It arose not because of failure in revenue, as revenue on the whole was more buoyant last year than he expected, but because he failed to control expenditure last year. It is a fact—an unpleasant one, perhaps, for those interested in the office of Minister for Finance—that it is the task of the Minister to control expenditure to ensure that it stays within the capacity of the nation's purse. The Minister failed last year in that respect. The buoyancy in revenue this year provided, in the ordinary course of events according to the estimates made by the Revenue Commissioners, without the Minister doing anything about it, sufficient, and more than sufficient, to make up that deficit, but it would be in certain circumstances permissible to increase a deficit. In certain other circumstances, a deficit should be wiped out and, indeed, some of what is now used as below-the-line expenditure, be it for capital services or otherwise, should be taken in. This year, it is perfectly clear, in view of the balance of payments position, that the Minister should not look to the Budget for a continuance of the miscalculation he made last year.

National production last year showed a decelerating trend of increase. It showed that the impetus that had been created in earlier years was tapering off and wearing out. Gross national product at constant prices was not showing anything like the increase that earlier years promised. The table included at No. 12 (b) of the Pink Book showed an indication that the curve of economic growth was flattening and that it was not rising as we would all wish. The trade figures we have seen, as indicated by the Minister himself in his Budget speech, show a serious deficit on our balance of trade, offset to some extent by invisible exports but at the same time—and this is the serious point about it—a trend of an adverse balance of payments that is steadily rising quarter by quarter.

If one takes the 12 months up to March 1962, the 12 months to June, 1962, to September 1962 and so on, all the way along in each quarter, we find that the balance of trade figures are steadily rising against us. Nobody minds a short hump of an adverse balance of trade. Even of the order that existed in the last calendar year, it would not make the slightest difference if it were clear that it was a temporary hump but the serious feature of it is that it is rising quarter by quarter. If you take the 12 months to March 1962, the adverse balance of trade was £82 million; to June 1962, it was £85 million; to September it was £90 million; to December, it was £99 million and to March 1963, it was £102.3 million. When you have an ascending adverse balance of that sort, coupled with decending exports, it is clear that a Budget is called for which will help to rectify that position. I see little evidence of that in the Minister's Budget.

We had an increased national income last year also and the Statistics Office itself says the greater part of the increase was due to a change in money values. We know, as the Parliamentary Secretary said a few minutes ago, there is no use in increasing money incomes if they cannot buy more and yet in relation to the Minister's national housekeeping last year, the Central Statistics Office says that the greater part of the increase is due to changes in money values.

For the first time this year, we had a separate publication by the Minister in relation to the capital Budget. I am, and always was, sorry that the Minister was constrained by political difficulties to do in 1957 what I had announced I would do, that is, introduce to the House the capital Budget at a different time from the current Budget. It is natural and inevitable that if you introduce the capital and current Budgets together, people will give more thought and attention to the current Budget and the capital Budget proposals tend to be overwhelmed and not to receive the publicity they should get. Publication of the booklet Capital Budget, 1963 this year goes part of the way towards what was suggested. I welcome that advance but I am sorry we are not going the whole way so that we could have a discussion on the capital Budget alone, unhindered by considerations of current budgetary problems.

I made it clear long ago, speaking authoritatively on behalf of this Party, that we believe that the proper basis for a capital Budget is that it should be the highest possible productive capital Budget that the country and the people could support. My quarrel with the Minister for Finance in relation to his capital Budget provisions, not merely this year but over the past years, is not on the amounts, although I think he made a grave error in 1957-58 and 1958-59 in unduly depressing the capital Budget figures of those years below the amounts I had indicated were going to be put forward. My quarrel with him is not about the amounts of the capital Budget but about the fact that it is apparent from the figures with which we are faced this year that the capital Budget has over the years not been expended in such a way as to produce an adequate return, either direct or indirect.

Only a Government are in the position of having the confidential information, having the confidential assessments before them, of various capital requirements, capital schemes. An Opposition cannot, of necessity, know many of the confidential matters that are known to the Government and to the Ministers concerned about the proposals made in relation to the expenditure of substantial sums of capital. We had an example of that recently in connection with the fertiliser factory. The Minister for Industry and Commerce came in here and told the House that he had information on which he was able to assess the value of the scheme but that the information was confidential and could not be given. Ministers came in here before in relation to the guarantee to be given of State money, taxpayers' money, to the Avoca mines. They said that they had confidential trade information that they could not give to the public at large or to the House. They had to accept the Ministers' judgment. An Opposition, no matter how much it may dislike it, in the absence of that confidential information, cannot always arrive at the position of being able to examine as it would wish proposals for the expenditure of substantial capital sums.

I am certain, for example, that if one had available all the information I have now in relation to the expenditure of vast sums in Dundalk, at the time the money was being voted, we would have raised very arched eyebrows about the foolhardiness of going so inefficiently about the job of trying to protect and preserve the employment of the people in the Great Northern Railway Works in Dundalk. It was right that steps should be taken to try to do everything possible to protect their employment but we know now that what happened was that it was not protected, that instead, a great deal of money was lost that should have been put to proper productive use. It is examples like that, and the failure of the Minister to put the money to productive use, that have made his capital Budgets over the years fail to provide the buoyancy and the direct returns that could be shown in this year's account, and so avoid some of the problems with which he is faced.

The Minister in his Financial Statement naturally and properly went on to talk about employment, unemployment and emigration. In the few remarks I am going to make, I am quite deliberately following the pattern of the various sectors of the economy that he took in his Financial Statement, doing it in that way for his convenience, so that he will have an opportunity of dealing with it and of assessing my comments against his own.

In relation to employment, we have a situation which is difficult to understand, a situation described not, I hasten to remind the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, by Fine Gael propagandists, but by the Central Statistics Office when they said that there has been a gradual but cumulative over-estimation of the total number of persons at work throughout the intercensal period. "Gradual and cumulative over-estimation of the number of persons at work." Yet, when we study what is published in these Tables in regard to employment, we find that the numbers engaged in all transportable goods, industries in 1962 went up by only 3,600, that the number of males engaged in farmwork, as permanent paid employees, came down by 3,500 and, in relation to temporary employment, came down by 1,700.

What do those figures mean? Leaving out the number of families at work on farms, what do they mean? They mean that if you take Tables 7 and 8 together of Economic Statistics, there are declared by the Central Statistics Office of the Government to be fewer persons in paid employment in Ireland in 1962 than there were in 1961. Leaving out family labour altogether, taking purely paid labour on the land, on the one hand, and in transportable goods industries, on the other, the figures show that the number in transportable goods industries is up by 3,600 and the number of permanent agricultural employees is down by 3,500—a difference of 100 in permanent employees and, as I have said, there are 1,700 fewer paid temporary employees on the land.

We all know in relation to farm labour that wherever you go, to whatever county you go in Ireland, there were fewer people at work on the land last year than there were the year before and the year before that and the year before that again. The Taoiseach has made the point here again and again, in an effort to explain away these figures, that he does not consider the criterion of family labour worth considering. We do. But, even without going into that at all, there were fewer paid employees in agriculture in 1962 as compared with 1961, on the one hand, and transportable goods industries, on the other.

Again, if we turn to the booklet Economic Statistics, we find that agricultural output is virtually steady— no increase—and that the increase on the industrial front is on a decelerating scale. It is natural therefore—I hope to take other opportunities of reminding the Taoiseach of this—that we should feel, and the country should feel, that this is a far cry from the 100,000 jobs promised in Clery's Restaurant in November, 1955. The people were told at that time that this was a coherent plan and scheme, that there was nothing airy-fairy about it, that there would be so many jobs the first year, so many jobs the second year and so many jobs the third year. They were to be divided out. So we were told in that famous, or should I say, infamous, speech made in Clery's Restaurant for the purpose of duping the electorate at that time. When I heard the Taoiseach speaking the other day of a new plan, I wondered how many of the promises in that new plan would go the way of the promises made in Clery's Restaurant some seven and a half or eight years ago.

I will not go through the list of increases in prices. The Minister himself in his Budget Statement admitted and acknowledged that consumer prices were up last year. By the look of them this year, from what we see in the Economic Survey published by the Institute, there is a prospect now of their increasing still further. I shall not tantalise the Minister because it does apparently tantalise Fianna Fáil to be told about the cost of living and the increase in the price of individual items, but the fact is that, however much it may tantalise the Minister here, it tantalises the housewife far more when she goes into the shops to buy that which she has to buy.

As I said, agricultural output is virtually static; in fact, net output this year is shown in Table 6 to be slightly down on last year. Is it not a strange commentary on the boasts that this Government have made as to the efficacy of the way in which they have helped agriculture so much that net output in 1962 was less than in 1961? It is no use taking gross output because we want to ensure that the land is farmed and not mined. Net output shows that.

Let us hark back now to economic development and to the basis of economic development in relation to agriculture. It was stated that we must take proper and adequate steps to ensure that we would increase our cattle population. The objective of policy, it was stated, and this was repeated in the Government's policy statement, would be to increase cow numbers progressively to at least 1,500,000 by 1964. If that were the objective of policy, is it not pretty obvious now in 1963 that that policy has completely failed and that the Minister and his Government have been failures in getting anywhere near that objective? Is that not one of the reasons why we have a static net agricultural output?

The Government have completely failed to provide the 50,000 a year extra breeding stock they set out as the foundation of a proper agricultural policy. It is no good saying that the reason for the failure is the necessity for implementing the scheme for the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. They knew the bovine tuberculosis scheme had to be put into effect at the time they were setting out this objective and telling us their policy was going to achieve that result. The fact is, of course, that it did not achieve it and I cannot see anything in this Budget designed to improve our chances now of reaching that objective by this time next year.

If we read the figures sent out by the Economic Institute, we find that to-day, in this year of 1963, there will be a reduction of some two per cent as compared with last year in industrial exports. I freely admit that it is quite impossible to be accurate at this time of the year to within one or two per cent, but the fact is that our imports are increasing and the balance of trade is rising steadily against us. We know, therefore, that if we are to have at best a static figure for exports, the effect will be far from encouraging on our whole balance of payments position. The latest estimate—it is, of course, only an estimate—is for a six per cent increase in home production. If there is a decrease of two per cent in exports, not merely have we got to have that two per cent decrease in exports wiped out but we have got to ensure a substantial increase in industrial exports this year if we are to be able to meet, and survive, the increasing imports month after month.

I see no sign whatever in this Budget of anything that will help to promote the growth of exports to meet that situation. In fact, I think it is true to say that this Government have done nothing in relation to exports other than to increase the incentive that we provided for exports in 1956. We were suffering then and we are suffering now—and only gradually getting over it—from the effect of the Lemass policy of the thirties, which was to concentrate public attention on trying to build an island wall and trying to ensure that we would not be an outward-looking people in relation to our production but an inward-looking one. Naturally, the difficulty of changing people's outlook on that is one that took and is taking a considerable time to overcome, but it is true to say that it was the Lemass inward-looking view, so often expressed all through those years in the thirties, that was responsible for the export troubles in which we have found ourselves in the post-war era.

If we are adequately and permanently to increase our standard of living, we must increase our exports substantially. We must do it on both the agricultural and the industrial fronts. Industry needs more help than mere financing. While we want to get the technical know-how as far as we possibly can from people outside the country, at the same time, we want to get psychologically the belief among our own people that they will have every bit as good a chance of improving their production as the foreigner coming in. There is undoubtedly abroad at present the feeling that if you want to get assistance towards the expansion of an industry, you have a better chance of getting it if you are a foreigner. That must be killed. We must go on making it clear again and again to our own people that it is on them the results depend and that though we want to get all the technical know-how and skill we can from people outside, we shall provide for our own factory owners and workers, for our own businesses, the means and the ability adequately to expand and to modernise.

Does this Budget do that? On the contrary, this is one of the three aspects in relation in which I venture to say this Budget will be known as the rob-the-till Budget. The only way existing industry can modernise and expand is out of the profits it earns. It must do that and the imposition of this retrospective corporation profits tax is a blow at modernisation, at productivity and at increased employment. It is easy for people like Deputy Nicholas Egan to say that it is taking something from rich profits. If it were desirable and necessary to tax profits, there was a proper way to do it, but this does not hit the profits that are being taken out of industry. It hits the profits that are being left in industry for the purpose of creating greater employment in future.

It would have been a perfectly simple matter for the Minister to provide a type of tax, differentiating, on the one hand, between profits distributed and taken out for spending and, on the other, profits retained in business and ploughed back for the purpose of modernisation. Corporation profits tax does not do that. Corporation profits tax strikes at the root of the funds necessary and available for expansion of employment, for increased productivity, for bettering the standards of the workers working on these machines, for the provision of a better chance of competitive export. Modernisation and productivity could bring down prices. Far from this Budget doing anything to assist industry in that respect, it has done exactly the reverse. It has hit it a body blow which will be felt not by the people who are drawing their profits out of industry but by the whole community because the hope of the increased employment, increased production, increased productivity and increased modernisation that those moneys could have provided is now gone as the result of this stipulation by the Minister.

Other improvements could be made in relation to the assistance necessary for industry to increase exports. Technical assistance grants, by their nature, are limited and though I believe that a development bank, such as operates in other countries for industry, should be operated by private hands, it should be assisted and promoted by the State. A development bank, which has been a great success in other countries, would assist in the provision of finance, as the Industrial Credit Company does and, I think, does adequately—if we can get over the feeling our own people have that it is only for foreigners, with which I do not agree —and could have governmental financial support. There could be some form of subsidy to the development bank which could provide the technical advisory functions utilised in other countries and could operate a wider type of technical assistance scheme. That would be a worthwhile scheme.

Training of management personnel is something that has been tackled by the Management Institute but it must be tackled in a much wider sphere, if we are to get that outward and forward-looking approach to our industrial export problems. Again, I see no sign of any such constructive proposition. I think I am right in saying that the World Bank provides special facilities for that type of exchange cost of consultant. I wonder whether it would be possible to stimulate here something of the American concept of the independent consulting engineer, which has broadened during the past two decades or so into the management-cum-engineering consultant firms, and have it accepted on a wide basis throughout the country. We must show some imagination and some belief in the practical manner in which we can assist those in industry and those in agriculture to meet the problems with which they are faced.

The survey given by the Minister of the economic position failed to indicate any positive increased constructive approach. It failed to indicate any positive increased hope of substantial growth. The Taoiseach, when he spoke on the Budget of veering to the left, was, I think, only playing with a political catchcry. Nobody could suggest that he gave any concrete evidence of what he had in his mind except another fake Clery's employment plan.

Against that picture and pattern, what has the Minister done in this Budget? He found, and I agree with him, that tobacco was unlikely to provide substantial additional tax revenue, that the consumption of tobacco in pounds weight was down on that of the year before. Spirits, as the result of the blow he dealt it last year, was not merely down on home consumption but the base for exports was also down. He said he could not turn to these as the two main normal sources of indirect taxation. However, he did, all the same, turn to them and included them in his other proposals. The tax he announced and with which I shall deal later was in fact the equivalent of 1d. on the packet of cigarettes and 1d. on the glass of whiskey, though he said himself he did not think they would take it. It looks at least possible, therefore, that the effect of his imposition in that respect may slow down and may harm the goose that has laid the golden egg.

The Minister started off, when looking for his money, by taking balance out of revenue. Surely the Minister for Finance will not seriously tell the House that to balance this year's Budget by taking £2 million from the revenue balances is an honest transaction when he had a Budget deficit of £4,857,000? He must have known in March whether he would safely be able to do without that revenue balance. If he is able safely to do without it—he is or he is not—he must have know in March; nothing has happened since. PAYE is providing the flow of revenue to which he refers. He must have known in March he would impose one or other type of sales tax which in the future would provide an even flow.

If the Minister knew and thought then—and he should have known then, if he thought about the matter—that that £2 million revenue balance was not required, the honest thing to do with it was to pay it into the Exchequer account before 31st March so as to reduce last year's deficit by £2 million. Instead, what he did was to take it out. It is what I would term a fake accounting transaction for this year— robbing the till. I am not the person who coined that phrase in this respect. The person who coined the phrase "robbing the till" is no less a person than the Tánaiste. When the suggestion was made that the revenue balances need not be kept quite so high —not that they should all be taken away but that they need not be kept quite so high—he said that would be robbing the till.

The Minister for Finance is already robbing the till in the corporation profits tax of the money that would be there for modernisation and increased employment. He is now robbing the till in relation to this revenue balance. Further, on his own saying in relation to the turnover tax, he will rob the till of every shopkeeper in Ireland, if he does not want them to pass on the tax that is being imposed. These are three ways in which I think this Budget will become known as the "Rob the Till Budget".

Naturally enough, there have been a great many different viewpoints on the manner of operation of this so-called turnover tax. I use the words "so-called turnover tax" quite deliberately. This is not a turnover tax as known by any economist, nor is it a turnover tax as known by the Fianna Fáil Government themselves. For the purpose of pulling a trick of the loop on the people, they have changed the name. This is a retail sales tax. Lest anyone should wonder why I think so, I would refer them to the Government White Paper on Direct Taxation published on 19th April, 1961. In Chapter III there, they deal with the turnover tax proper; with the value added tax; with a retail tax, a manufacturers' tax, a wholesale tax and a purchase tax.

The Minister for Finance, when explaining on Budget Day what this is, made clear that this is a tax which will operate exactly as the tax operates in Norway and in Sweden. I cannot remember whether or not he mentioned America. However, he said it works successfully in Norway and Sweden and that the tax he was proposing was exactly the same tax as was in operation in Norway and Sweden. Here is what the Government said, two years ago:

The retail tax; this is a single-stage tax levied at the retail level.

It is widely used as a source of state (as distinct from federal) revenue in the USA and as a local tax in the Canadian provinces. It was employed in Sweden in the period 1940-48 and was re-introduced there recently. It is also in use in Norway.

I want the Minister for Finance to tell the country simply, quietly and categorically why he changed the name of the tax he has now introduced from the name he gave it in the Government White Paper published in April, 1961.

A turnover tax is a multistage tax. The French system to which, I think, the Minister also referred, is not a retail sales tax of this sort. It is turnover tax and the value is added back by each retailer and by each wholesaler as the goods pass through the chain of distribution. The French system is a tax on the amount the particular person in the chain and industry believes should be added back before he passes on his goods to the next stage in the distributive chain. That is generally accepted as being a type of turnover tax and indeed the White Paper in paragraph 34 refers to the turnover tax as a general cumulative tax or multistage tax applying to sales in all stages in productive and distribution channels covering all goods and services.

I want to know what good and valid reason the Minister can give for changing the name, other than that he was trying to cod the people as to the manner in which this tax is to work. I want to ask him in what other countries specifically is this type of tax operated as he intends it to operate in Ireland. Let me say at once that I agree with him on one thing and one thing only: a single stage tax is preferable to a multistage tax. I want to ask why it is that he announced in his Budget Statement and in relation to the Resolutions passed on that day, that it was going to be possible to take out of the orbit or ambit of this tax certain raw materials but not possible to take out necessaries of life like bread, butter, flour, tea or sugar. Perhaps I was wrong and that he intended to tax fertilisers, for example, for the farmers, but he indicated that he did not want to tax raw materials. If a hardware shop in the country has a grocery in one section, hardware in another and sells fertilisers to the farmers in a third section, why will it be possible to extricate from the turnover of that shop the money that comes into the till for fertilisers, while it will not be possible to extricate and take out of the ambit of the tax the money paid for bread and other necessaries of life? What can be done for one could be done for the other.

It seems to me quite indefensible that any Minister for Finance should impose a tax on every type of retail sale which meant that the same rate of tax was paid on the necessaries of life as on the luxuries of life. No Minister for Finance likes imposing taxation. I do not believe that even Dr. Ryan as Minister for Finance likes it, although I think this has been imposed this year for a particular purpose to which I will advert in a minute. No Minister likes imposing taxation. I did not like having to do it. I did not like having to do it in 1956 for the purpose of getting a more solid framework on which it would be possible to get economic growth, but when I did do it, I made very sure that I placed a higher tax on luxuries than on necessaries. I made very sure that the ordinary necessaries of life were not taxed at the same rate as luxuries which people could, if necessary, do without.

The fundamental objection to this tax is that it imposes exactly the same rate on the loaf of bread as on the fur coat, to take two extremes of the scale. It imposes exactly the same rate of tax on food of all necessary descriptions as it does on food of exotic descriptions. It imposes exactly the same rate of tax on necessary articles of clothing as it does on those that may be pleasant for those who have sufficient income to buy them but which are definitely luxuries and not part of the necessaries of everyday life.

That infringes the cardinal principle of taxation that taxation must bear fairly on those who must pay it. This tax does not and it is primarily because of that that I made it very clear in the beginning that if the Government now give the people the opportunity they want to test this Budget by a general election, we will ask the people for a mandate to enable Fine Gael to form a Government, in the knowledge that we will bring in a different type of Budget, a Budget designed to meet the economic needs of the moment and to ensure that this type of tax hitting the necessaries of life just as hard as the luxuries will not come into force next November. That will give a better chance and opportunity for those in agriculture and those in industry not merely of increasing production but of increasing the exports we must have if the country is to survive.

Like most Deputies, I have listened to the various speeches and I think the most amusing speech I have listened to from the Opposition was the speech delivered by Deputy Sweetman who has projected Fine Gael policy for the by-election in the hope that the result would induce a general election. During his remarks, I could not help thinking how foolish his speech was, when one related it to Deputy Sweetman's performance when he had the opportunity of trying to form a Government during certain periods in the past ten years. The general mishandling of the financial situation produced a crisis in 1956 which the Fianna Fáil Government had to redress.

I was also amused at his crocodile tears for the social welfare classes. From my younger days, I can well remember that the Party of which he is a member reduced the old age pensioners by a shilling a week. He consistently complains of the inadequacy of the social welfare allowances. We all agree that they are inadequate, but the policy the Fianna Fáil Government have pursued during the past six years and in the previous 15 or 20 years has produced conditions which have bettered the position of the social welfare classes.

I do not think that what Deputy Sweetman has said here tonight will convince anybody in North-East Dublin or any citizen or voter in the country. He has told the people that he proposes to introduce a Budget, provided Fine Gael get a majority. No sane person, having regard to the record of Fine Gael in the past and to the fact that they subordinated the policy they had and joined with the Labour Party, with the help of certain Independents, will attempt to return Fine Gael to office. That is my view, and I do not believe that Deputy Sweetman's speech will have any influence in Dublin North-East or anywhere else.

He has told us that Fine Gael propose to introduce a further Budget, should they by any mischance or miracle ever be returned to power, but neither he nor any other member of the Opposition has indicated in what way they will impose the taxation necessary to meet the current expenditure the Government propose for the coming year. I have listened to numerous speeches in this debate, which has been protracted deliberately because there is a by-election in North-East Dublin, and I venture to suggest that if the shadow of that by-election were not over this House, this discussion would have ended last week. Certainly it would not have dragged on interminably as it has.

I view this Budget as setting the pattern for a lean forward for further economic expansion in spite of the gloomy speeches made by Opposition speakers. It is easy to come in here and refer to figures, but my yardstick is the progress that has been made. The emigration figures have gone down and employment has gone up.

Emigration, you mean. You are mixing your figures.

In the past few weeks, the Dáil was told by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that Dublin city alone was to have 28 or 30 projects from which we will get additional employment opportunities.

Blueprints.

The Budget provides further expansion of existing services. We know, for instance, that in housing, there is a problem in Dublin. Additional sums of money are earmarked for that social work. While I do not wish to go into the details of the housing position within the ambit of a debate of this nature, I do wish to refer to one aspect in it, to contradict certain statements made about the lack of employment opportunities in our country. Within recent weeks, the Dáil was told that 1,400 families returned from England to avail of employment opportunities afforded by the policy the Fianna Fáil Government pursue. Of those 1,400 families, 549 had to be housed by Dublin Corporation. On their waiting list today, included in the 4,000 urgent cases, there are 800 other families. These are realities that I am concerned with in my approach to the question of providing the additional taxation necessary to develop this country. The whole basis of the Budget is to protect, to continue and to expand activities, whether at Governmental level or at the level of private enterprise.

Reference has been made to the agricultural industry. As a Dublin Deputy I have an appreciation of the agricultural industry's problems. I know that it represents 30 per cent of the livelihood of our people. I am glad to see that in this Budget there are further aids to agriculture, and further help to get rid of that scourge which has plagued that industry for so many years in the bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme. That particular industry will benefit when that scheme has reached finality.

I have referred to housing. There is that problem in Dublin, with the additional employment opportunities created. There is that problem facing even urban centres adjacent to provincial cities and towns. The development of new factories has brought an influx of people. Deputies have referred to that problem on certain Estimates. Limerick city, though efforts have been made to denigrate it by a Limerick Fine Gael Deputy, has that problem of housing, and in County Dublin, there is the same problem. New factories built in Clondalkin—the new aircraft factory and other associated services—are presenting Dublin County Council with a housing problem. All these are facts and are evidence of an upsurge in the country, despite what Opposition speakers have stated.

As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance has said, our school building programme is going ahead. In Dublin city, we have a school building problem related to the great expansion of our suburban districts. The new housing areas that have arisen within the past four or five years require new schools, and plans are being perfected by the authorities for their building, while others have been completed. There is a real problem also facing the city in regard to vocational education. We are all of one mind in saying that this service should be expanded, and there is a demand in certain areas of this city for additional vocational education facilities. If these aims are to be achieved, additional moneys must be found.

Deputy Sweetman in his reference to the mythical or ghost Budget he proposes to bring in if Fine Gael should have the misfortune to be returned, has not told the electorate or the people of the country what taxation he is going to impose to provide for the extension of these vital services for our community. We have the road replacement schemes developed, and we know that one thing that has struck visitors and people generally in this country is the wonderful improvement in our roads. That is capable of further development, and this Budget provides for a continuation of that policy. We have a very urgent traffic problem in Dublin which can be solved only by the provision of additional money. In this Budget, generous financial assistance is provided to enable the Department of Local Government to solve the problem.

There are two matters relating to the country generally to which I wish to refer. These are the progress of the arterial drainage schemes and the provision of water supplies. These schemes are beneficial to the country but they need financial assistance from the Government and impetus from the Government Departments. Fianna Fáil have provided that assistance and that impetus and will continue to do so, despite the criticism from the benches opposite.

Reference has been made to the decline in our exports. It is true that they went down by some percentage last year, that they were not as good as the record achieved in 1961, but they were much higher than they were in previous years and far in advance of what they were when the Coalition Government were in office. The national debt was referred to by Opposition speakers. It is my view that it is reasonable that a young country such as ours should have a national debt but its existence is being offset by capital investment and by the physical assets produced by the policy of this Government.

These assets include the development of rural electrification, the operations of the sugar company and of the air services. These are physical assets which will benefit the country in the future and help to provide employment for our young people at home. There has been criticism of the method of raising the money. That is the only difference that exists between the Parties. I believe that the imposition of this new tax will not create the hardship suggested by Opposition speakers. I envisage that in a progressive country, a country building up its economy, this tax may yet result in a replacement of the outmoded tax systems we have.

I think the Minister had a difficult job in framing the Budget and he is to be congratulated on his courage in introducing it. It reflects the fact that Fianna Fáil policy is always based on realities, and that we never run away from our responsibilities. When they appreciate the implications of this Budget, the people will understand that services provided must be paid for and that money must be found from taxation for the ultimate benefit of the community at large.

This Budget cannot be described as anything but an amazing Budget, amazing in the fact that the Minister, when questioned about it in the House, knew nothing about the points raised. On each occasion on which he was questioned, he had to turn to the officers of his Department for his replies. One can only describe the Budget as a Budget of the bureaucrats of the Minister's Department and the Department in Dublin Castle. It is rather strange that my two colleagues, the Minister for Defence and Deputy Geoghegan, have not even offered to support it. The Minister is quoted on the records of the House as having said: "I want money". That was all there was to it.

It has been said that the new tax is only 6d. in the £ but if the Minister wants money, we are entitled to know what he wants it for. Is it for a continuation of the policy of squandermania, the policy of unemployment, of an increased cost of living and of emigration at the highest figures for years? We are entitled to ask these questions and to get replies to them, instead of all the talk we have had from Ministers in after-dinner speeches. Where is all the economic progress we have heard about? Where is the great expansion in our economy? The people are fed up. They have been led up the garden path long enough and now they are not prepared to go any further. They have turned back and the first of them to turn back are the members of the chambers of commerce who have passed a vote of no confidence in the future of the country.

There is a lack of confidence in the future. It is that lack of confidence that has brought on the CIE strike. The real cause of that strike is the insecurity of the members of the different unions. There is a lot of mumbling and grumbling about the Government throughout the country. We have heard a lot about the five year plan: we hear the bees but we never see the honey. We now find ourselves confronted with a financial crisis promoted by Fianna Fáil because of their lack of policy to meet the situation created by our failure in regard to the Common Market.

We find that the banks now have to give an account of their stewardship. It is no wonder that millions of pounds have already been transferred across the Border to Northern banks. Is that not something that is of grave concern to the country? Another after-dinner speech by the Minister for Lands contained a promise to give 45 additional acres to small holders. I have my pockets laden with letters from people looking for transfers. Whom does the Minister think he is fooling with all this talk of 45 extra acres? Some of the people fell for it and Fianna Fáil are always willing to promise something the people will fall for, but the people are beginning to sit up and see for themselves. They have taken this with a pinch of salt. The Minister should not continue insulting the intelligence of the people of west Galway whom I represent with this glib promise of 45 acres, when for years they have known that they have not been considered for five acres outside their own holdings.

Speaking on this Budget, which is the largest ever put on the backs of the people, I want to ask the Minister why we have such an increase in the number of unemployed in my constituency. The Minister for Defence cannot deny that. I have the figures—I got them in this House—despite all the talk of the increased number of factories in the area. We got a report recently in my town about the numbers coming on the labour market each year. The report was drafted by an interested group. They were not a political group and they were interested in the people as a whole. They include those coming from national and vocational schools. I do not propose to quote the figures, but I can assure the House they are very frightening, and are a matter of grave concern to the parents of the children coming on the labour market year in and year out. I suggest the Minister should arm himself with that information.

I further suggest to the Minister that he should do something with the millions of the people's money which he and other Ministers are gambling. If the Minister's policy is continued, we will eventually be left with only the very young and the very old. We will have to face increasing Budgets, and we will have a decreasing population because of increases in rates and taxes as a result of an ineffectual Fianna Fáil policy.

To collect this turnover tax, the shop counters will be lined with inspectors. At one time, the Minister for Agriculture promised to line the ditches with inspectors. We have seen an increase of 2,000 civil servants since PAYE came into operation. That has made a nice little nest-egg for Fianna Fáil. It will work out at anything up to £15 million. Where is the money to come from? Is it to come from the purse of the housewife, and the till of the shopkeeper?

The blister of this Budget will be felt by all sections of the public. The people are not yet aware of its full implications. The Minister said: "I want money". He and his Party are now demanding information from the banks. Is it to be a bank hold-up? It would not be the first time the banks were held up by members on that side of the House.

That should be left out of the debate.

The Minister is not using a gun, but a fountain pen, but the power of the gun is behind the fountain pen. The position at the moment is that there is utter confusion and a lack of confidence amongst the people. Because of Fianna Fáil's lack of policy, the people cherish the hope of getting a chance of replacing the Government and they are looking forward to doing so at the first available moment. It is about time for the Minister to draw up a Budget himself and not leave it to the officers of his Department. He should come to the House prepared to stand up and tell us what the Budget means. We were able to find out only gradually what this Budget means, and some of the Minister's Party have not yet learned its full implications.

Listening to the speeches from the other side of the House, and reading in the Official Report the speeches we did not hear, it is amazing to realise the attempt that has been made by the Opposition to try to convince the people that an air of despair permeates the land. I cannot understand why members of the Opposition should adopt that attitude. Are they completely blind or are their heads completely buried in the sand?

During the course of their speeches, some Deputies from the Opposition side of the House referred to extracts from The Kerryman. I wonder if they read last week's issue of The Kerryman, the issue of 4th May. That paper is famous for being anti-Fianna Fáil and famous for expressing the views of the people it represents. I will read this extract for the people on the opposite side of the House. There is a black heading: “The People are Sick to Death of Dáil Cant and Hypocrisy: Opposition failure has contributed to”——

What is the paper?

Acting Chairman

What is the date?

4th May. I think this issue was submitted to every Deputy. I quote: "Opposition failure has contributed to desperate political situation that could mean a dangerous future for all of us: James Dillon is the man primarily responsible for deflated balloon which passes as an Opposition."

Would the Deputy read the other paragraph now?

Read it all.

We have all read it.

I am reading extracts.

Read the editorial.

The spicy parts.

I am not holding this out as being right or wrong. I am trying to convey to the opposite side of the House what the people think. A newspaper is supposed to represent the point of view of the people. It is supposed to know what the people are thinking.

(Interruptions.)

I am trying to convey to the Opposition that the people are sick of Dáil cant and hypocrisy.

Give us the name of the writer.

I have not looked at it.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy says this is the view of the paper but it is a contributed article.

The Deputy cannot call one whole page of a paper a contributed article.

Acting Chairman

Deputy O'Connor should be allowed to make his speech.

I am trying to convey to the Opposition what the general feeling in the country is.

Let the Deputy give us the paper and we will read it for him.

Deputy Sweetman said noise was no substitute for intelligence. He has plenty of noise behind him over there. I hope that will sink in, if The Kerryman does not. Our people are definitely on the forward march. They have a feeling of hope, of going places. They need all the encouragement and help they can get from the intelligent members of this House. Since time immemorial, the forces of the invader have been attacking the institutions of this country and saying we are not capable of doing this or that. Unfortunately, they have left their mark and I suppose a bit of this will go on until the end of time.

Yesterday, Deputy Clinton made the statement that the Budget represented an imposition of from £8 to £12 10s., on the agricultural labourer. To impose a tax of £8 on an agricultural labourer, his wage would have to be £450 a year or £8 a week. To realise a tax of £12 10s., his wage would have to be £650 a year or £12 a week.

Not if he has to pay more for bread, butter, tea and sugar.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy should be allowed to make his speech.

The agricultural wage in the Dublin area is £6 15s. a week; £6 7s. in Limerick and Cork, and in all other areas £6. Assuming that £5 of the £6 is taxable, the agricultural labourer would have to pay 2/6d. a week tax. If he is a married man with one child, he will get 10/- a month, which wipes out the tax he would have to pay. If he is a married man with three children, he will get 14/6d. per month—4/6d. over and above what he will have to pay in tax. If he has four children, he will get 19/- —9/- over and above what he will have to pay in tax. If he has five children, he will get 23/6d., an increase of 21/- over and above the tax. If he has six children, he will get 28/—25/6d. over and above the tax. Deputy Clinton's statement that this agricultural labourer will have to pay from £8 to £12 10s. is indicative of the figures the Opposition are attempting to put up—figures which cannot stand up to examination. That is the mentality behind the speeches by the Opposition on the Budget.

Various references were made to the 300,000 people alleged to have left the country between 1956 and 1962. I shall not argue because I do not know what number has gone. I do not know whether there are any substantial figures to back up those statements. But, even allowing they have gone, from 1956 our national income has increased from £456,600,000 to £632 million in 1962, an increase of 38 per cent. It is noticeable that we had that increase after, as is alleged, 300,000 left the country. Our gross national product at current prices in 1956 was £560,400,000, and in 1962 it was £764 million, an increase of 36 per cent. The increase in actual money at current prices was £203,600,000. That again came after, as the Opposition claim, 300,000 people had left the country. The actual increase in gross national product at constant prices between 1956 and 1962 was £78,800,000. Those are the figures issued by the central authority, which are substantiated and which must have a bearing on our position. If we can increase our productivity and output with 300,000 fewer people, it must mean we have reached a very high standard of efficiency. It is a pity the Opposition would not devote their efforts to finding ways and means of keeping those people at home. In that way, we could increase our output still further.

On previous occasions here, I suggested there was a major problem facing our nation. The people are looking for leadership. They are prepared to put their energy and intelligence—of which they have plenty— into an effort to put this country on the plane on which it could be. All right thinking people in this Dáil should try to get together to find a way of stopping emigration. We have a very low output from our land. I was amazed at a function recently to hear Mr. Leydon, one of the directors of the Central Bank, say that the gross average output of land in this country was £15 per acre, whereas in Denmark it was up to £160 per acre and in Germany, it topped the £200 mark. That shows how far behind we are in agricultural output.

I have my finger on the public pulse in Kerry and I know our people are going ahead. They have increased milk production from 40,000,000 gallons two years ago to 50,000,000 gallons. They have increased the numbers of cattle, pigs and sheep. The tourist industry is growing and an effort is being made to bring fishing into a productive state. We hear a lot about people leaving the western counties, but the census figures do not bear that out. Leitrim is especially high, but Kerry, Clare and Galway are all around the 15 per cent mark. Places such as Meath and even Wexford are as high as 12 per cent. Therefore, it is not just the western counties that are losing their population. The figures I have quoted will stand up to any examination any Opposition Deputy cares to make of them.

I would earnestly urge them to bend their energy towards devising a policy in Opposition which will help the people to redirect their efforts into channels that will increase our production to the levels needed to give us a strong economy. Deputies were elected here as leaders of the people. They should behave as such and advise the people to direct their energies in the right direction. There is too much of this policy of fence sitting in the Opposition, of saying: "If we were over there, things would be different."

Deputy Sweetman this afternoon held out the carrot that if his Party were elected to office, they would drop the turnover tax and the increase in the corporation profits tax. He would have a retrenchment policy and that would bring us back to the position we were in in 1956. There is no other answer. I do not think anyone, even those in Opposition, desire that. Deputy Sweetman also referred to what he called the Lemass era of the thirties. Surely any right-thinking Deputy in the Opposition must agree that the thanks of the nation are due to the Taoiseach for his efforts in the 1930's—for having set up such industries as Bord na Móna and for his wheat growing policy.

Does the Deputy say that the wheat policy was a good proposition?

It was a good policy, as the war years proved.

Good for whom?

We would have had nothing to eat——

We could not eat it.

A terrible lot of Irishmen ate it and the person who says we could not eat it is not a very good Irishman.

You do not have to eat shamrock to be a good Irishman.

You have to have a bit of Irish blood in you to be an Irishman. It came very badly from Deputy Sweetman to attempt to criticise the activities of the Taoiseach at that time. The suggestion was that he built a wall around our industrial effort so that nothing could be brought in. There were forces in this country from the very start who were nothing more than a bridgehead to attack our industries. They are in our ports and their aim is to maintain the tradition of foreign firms based on our soil. Perhaps a lot of our industries run by Irishmen have not come up to scratch but many such industries did good work and if they survive in the future they deserve a lot of credit for it. I mentioned here already that another Deputy and I went into a shop in this city and could not get a pair of Irish-made socks.

On a point of order, is it not a fact that since then, both Deputies have got presents of hundreds of pairs of socks?

Here is one Deputy who got no presents, who does not need them. It is a terrible state of affairs when a firm based in this country should admit that they could not provide an Irish-made article. Surely the trade unions whose members work in such firms could do something about it? I do not wish to take up any more of the time of the House because I know other Deputies are anxious to get in, but I would point out that even supporters of Fine Gael at the moment are saying we are lucky to have the Taoiseach at the head of affairs. Instead of making the sort of criticisms they have made during this debate, Opposition Deputies would be much better employed in advising our people on ways and means of getting our production up. This would ensure a sufficiency in this country which would in turn eliminate emigration.

I have listened to some Deputies from the Government benches during this debate and might I remark at the outset that the contributions made by most of them have not done anything to substantiate a case in favour of this Budget? They have mainly indulged in comparisons with the past. Deputy Nicholas Egan said that when Cumann na nGaedheal took 1/- off old age pensions, it was their downfall. As a young man in politics, I sincerely agree, but I will go further and say that this 2½ per cent turnover tax will be the downfall of the Fianna Fáil Government, and the sooner the better.

The last speaker, Deputy O'Connor from Kerry, quoted an article from The Kerryman. As a Donegal man, I have very little interest in The Kerryman—the paper, not the man. Having quoted part of that article, he should have completed his reading. Right beside the statement he quoted is the editorial which says:

At the present time the Government is not a popular Government, and we would say deservedly so.

The article Deputy O'Connor quoted was written by a Mr. Seán Mitchell and expressed the opinions only of Mr. Seán Mitchell. The editorial, on the other hand, stated the views of the newspaper. I cannot form an honest opinion of any of the statements made by Fianna Fáil Deputies, and that includes members of the Cabinet. Either they are out of touch with the state of the country or they will not tell the truth.

Deputy Timmons was so optimistic about this country that I fully believe he thinks that Dublin ends on a sixpenny bus ride from Nelson Pillar— that of course, is when the buses are running. He went on to talk about the progress this country has made and boasted about the ESB and the sugar company. Surely that is the biggest fallacy that ever came from the Fianna Fáil benches because when Deputy McGilligan and members of Cumann na nGaedheal, in the late 1920s, were trying to set up the ESB, they were going around calling it a white elephant. Surely it is a damnable thing when 30 years later a Deputy comes in here and compliments the people of that time for starting schemes like the ESB and the sugar company in the mistaken belief that it was his own Party who started them? These things are history now and I do not propose to go into them.

The biggest controversy about this Budget is the turnover tax. This is designed, in my opinion, to suit the higher executives and the big business men and not to meet the requirements of the more needy. I would say that the people who matter do not care and the people who care do not matter. That is my opinion of the mentality of the present Government. They say that the tax is evenly divided and distributed over the country, but how can they explain that 18 months ago we had members of the Front Bench justifying an increase of £1,500 a year to certain members of the judiciary and now they turn around and say that they had to pay and they must share in the cake of prosperity? Surely there has been a big change in the past 18 months.

Since I came into this House two years ago, we have had the Government giving increases to certain sections of the community. We had the eighth round increases—16 per cent to people earning £2,500 a year; 16 per cent to people earning £1,500 a year and 16 per cent to people earning £2,000 a year. This was in order that they could share in the cake of prosperity. We had the Minister for Justice, a man for whom I have the highest admiration, being put in the position that he had to argue on behalf of the Government and convince the people that it was right to give the judiciary an increase from £4,500 to £6,000 odd. It was the mistakes of that time which left the Minister for Finance with a debit balance in his Budget.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance spoke this evening and while he was most entertaining, and while on many occasions I have heard him make a good contribution to a debate, I do not think there has ever been a more ridiculous speech in this House. He would not promise that inspectors would not be sent around to inspect premises in relation to the turnover tax. Perhaps his Department might explain why there are advertisements in the national newspapers asking for applicants for administrative purposes. They just cannot organise this turnover tax without having manpower and I suspect, in view of the happenings in my constituency and throughout the country, that when it comes to the appointment of these inspectors, they will have to be secretaries of Fianna Fáil cumainn or their fathers will have to be secretaries of them.

The Taoiseach mentioned that he was prepared to meet any people aggrieved by this Budget. I take it that he meant trade unions and organised business associations but perhaps he overlooked the people of the country. There is no doubt that this Budget is the most controversial Budget ever introduced in a Parliament in Western Europe. It is designed so that it can be "hooked and crooked" by any person who wishes to take advantage of it, by any person mean enough to do so. I have heard it said that Jesse James and the Dalton Brothers would have nothing on this Budget. If the Taoiseach is prepared to meet any aggrieved persons, he will have ample opportunity in the immediate future and he can put it on record for the people of Dublin North-East that the result of the by-election will determine the future of the Government, and I have no doubt what the answer will be.

As some of my colleagues are anxious to get in before the Minister speaks at 9 o'clock, I will cut short my contribution. Bearing in mind that I am no financial wizard, I would ask the Minister who gave him this figure of £10½ million as a year's income from the 2½ per cent turnover tax? I am informed that £17 million is collected by way of revenue in this State per annum from income tax on profits. I have compiled a few figures and where nine people are concerned at the moment who pay £310 15s. per year income tax, on the turnover tax, they will pay £2,184 10s. This may not be an accurate assessment. It may be no guide whatever to the £10½ million but I am convinced that the man who said that the figure would be £10½ million either did not know what he was talking about or did not want to tell the truth, did not want to create alarm in the country.

If these figures, however, are to be taken as a guide, that £10½ million could turn out to be £30 million, £40 million or £50 million. Who is to decide that it will not? If it does, you can call it one per cent, two per cent, 2½ per cent, three per cent or five per cent—any percentage you like—but the fact remains that £30 million, or £40 million, or £50 million will be collected to help this Government get the money they have squandered since they came into office. Who will pay that £30 million or £40 million or £50 million?

We heard the Minister for Social Welfare saying that as the shopkeepers are honest-to-goodness shopkeepers, they will put it on luxuries, that they will not put it on foodstuffs. Surely that is passing the buck? Surely that would have been the decent thing for the Government to do or had they not the courage to do it?

I should like to refer, with the permission of the Chair, to a matter that happened in this House last Wednesday week when Deputy Briscoe and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands misunderstood a remark I passed. As the Official Report of the Dáil shows, Deputy Briscoe was wrong. Now, Deputy Briscoe is a man of advanced age. His hearing may be failing him. I accept that he probably misunderstood me. However, the Parliamentary Secretary heard exactly what I said but he thought he would create a scene. I have often heard that the Parliamentary Secretary was a chancer: I am fully convinced of it now.

I should like to thank Deputy Carter, who was sitting on the back bench of the Fianna Fáil benches, for getting up and, in spite of the fact that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands was trying to make a field day out of it, admitting that he heard me say what I did say, namely, to give everyman his due. Deputy Briscoe may have misunderstood me but the Parliamentary Secretary did not misunderstand me. He tried to make a field day out of it. If he is man enough, I hope he will come into the House and withdraw his remarks.

I shall not be long in my contribution to this debate tonight. I come from one of the poorest areas in Ireland. If we do not get money the schemes we have in hands cannot be carried out. I draw the attention of the House to the following schemes.

Next Wednesday, we are asked to open a generating station in Bellacorick. It has cost millions. Fianna Fáil are responsible for its promotion. Fianna Fáil are willing to pay for it. The money must come from the people.

Bord na Móna are operating in that area. Bord na Móna are spending thousands and thousands on reclaiming land there. They are making milled peat available for the generating station and they provide employment for a number of men.

In Geesala we have the Grass Meal Company. That company are doing great work there. They are showing the people of North Mayo that we can convert bogland into good land. They are showing them that we can grow good grass there and make the land valuable for the nation.

In Geesala, we have the Peatland Experimental Station. It is a credit to the area and, in addition, it gives employment.

I mention now the drainage of the Moy. That has been discussed for I do not know how many years. It is now being carried out by Fianna Fáil. It certainly will be a great asset to the people of my area in North Mayo and it is giving employment.

We have started a new factory in Ballina. To a certain extent, the money for this factory is being provided by the Government.

I have mentioned six projects which provide employment in North Mayo. If the people of North Mayo are asked to pay a little extra, such as 6d. in the £, I am certain that no one there will object to doing so. We must bear in mind that we shall get back an increase in the social benefit which will outweigh the extra amount the imposition in this Budget will entail.

I speak now for the people of my area. If we had not a Fianna Fáil Government in office there would be nothing doing in North Mayo. When the Coalition Government were in office in 1957 we could not get a housing grant or anything else in North Mayo. The people there have faith in this Government who are taking positive action and spending money on projects which will benefit the area and provide employment. They realise that that position would not obtain if Fianna Fáil were not in office.

I recollect that the work in the Bellacorick area in connection with Bord na Móna and the generating station was closed down when the Coalition Government was in office. I recollect making a special plea in 1956 or probably 1957 to maintain at least 10 or 12 people at work in Bellacorick. That was my desire so that the drains that were opened in the area would not be allowed to close in. I felt that if the drains were closed in the Coalition would not see to it that the work would be started.

I am glad I have lived to see that work started. I take a certain amount of credit for having done my best to get that work started in North Mayo. It is a very good thing that Fianna Fáil have seen to it that that work is being carried out there. I do not mind the small extra sum which we in North Mayo will have to pay for it. We are willing to do so because we realise the Government must get money to pay for the work. If they are providing employment in an area, as is certainly the case in North Mayo, the people will have no objection to paying a little extra, That is something of which I am certain. The question of having to pay something extra such as 6d. in the £ will easily be outbalanced by the increase in the social benefits which will be something more than what this extra amount will account for.

I am very pleased to stand up in this House and to say that our Fianna Fáil Government have done something for North Mayo and given employment in that area. Otherwise, North Mayo would be in a poor condition. I realise that our present number of unemployed is a bit high. It must be pointed out that because of the frost and snow over a prolonged period in Britain thousands of single people came back to North Mayo. As we all know, North Mayo sends out many people every year to Britain for agricultural work. North Mayo got an awful setback in the weather. If we had not these schemes in operation in North Mayo, the position there would be very bad. The people there will have no objection to paying 6d. extra in the £: I see Deputy Browne smiling.

Mr. Browne

He is laughing.

Who knows better than Deputy Browne the position in North Mayo to-day, a position which is far more favourable than that which obtained under the Coalition Governments? He should be the last man to object in this instance. In his day, he saw his home town of Crossmolina a deserted village but now it has been transformed into a hive of industry. I say definitely that he cannot deny it.

Mr. Browne

Leave Crossmolina to me.

Crossmolina would be a washout, only for Bord na Móna and the Bellacorick peat station.

Mr. Browne

Did you check the Fianna Fáil vote in Crossmolina in the last election?

I have no objection to doing it ever. I beat Deputy Browne hands down in Crossmolina. The Fianna Fáil vote in Crossmolina for the first or second time ever was definitely in excess of Fine Gael. I am definitely certain of that and I am making that statement openly and publicly. We in North Mayo are proud of Fianna Fáil. Only for Fianna Fáil, North Mayo would be a washout. Deputy Browne may check and go back. He may say what he wants and I will not object.

Mr. Browne

Did the Fianna Fáil vote in North Mayo go up?

Fianna Fáil gave North Mayo all they have got.

Deputy Browne should not interrupt when I am stating facts. Deputy Browne will be able to tell the people if I am making any wrong statement. Do not be whispering behind. I am going to say to you that nobody knows better than Deputy Browne what good and what benefits Fianna Fáil conferred on North Mayo. As I told you, all six major schemes in North Mayo were given by Fianna Fáil and I defy Deputy Browne to tell us what good ever was done for North Mayo by a Fine Gael or Coalition Government. I know North Mayo.

Mr. Browne

They know you, too.

I have been in politics in North Mayo since 1918 and I certainly know what the opinion of North Mayo is. They thank the Fianna Fáil Government. They definitely thank them and are proud of them. They do not object to paying 6d. in the £ extra for goods when they have an increase in social benefits which will mean more for the people in North Mayo than the extra expenditure which the Budget will occasion. We in North Mayo are people who have large families and these people will get the extra money from the increased social benefits. We are proud of Fianna Fáil and happy that they will be able to carry on those works.

Mr. Browne

On a point of order, Deputy Calleary is not in a position to say that Deputy Browne is thankful to the Fianna Fáil Government.

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Browne

Deputy Calleary is repeating himself.

If Deputy Browne thinks I have made any false statements, he has plenty of room to object.

Sit down and let him in.

Fianna Fáil have done a lot for the people of North Mayo and as this tax is something small we do not worry because we will be able to pay it. This is a different time from 1957. We are going to have the money and can take steps to get that money. What harm, so long as we are doing the work and developing North Mayo. What harm as long as we in North Mayo get a certain amount of employment. Definitely, 500 to 600 men have been employed as a result of those schemes and that is the end of my story.

Most of the Deputies on the far side of the House, even the last speaker, have tried to convince us here that this is a good Budget, but Lord bless us, there is not a bit of point in it. It is a waste of time, at that. If they want to convince anybody that it is a good Budget, let the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands who spoke in my adopted constituency some three or four weeks ago tell us why the Government changed their mind. He told a Fianna Fáil cumann there that the forthcoming Budget was going to put a tax on luxuries, on fur coats, jewellery and cosmetics, but either he must have changed completely or else the attitude of the Government has changed.

I got a telegram from a colleague of mine, Deputy MacEoin, and I think Fianna Fáil speakers should go down to Athlone and try to convince the people there. The telegram is addressed to "General Seán MacEoin, TD, Dáil Éireann, Dublin" and says: "Traders of Athlone and district at public meeting held tonight unanimously resolved to oppose turnover tax and refuse to implement it." If you want to convince anybody, convince the people of Boyle and Athlone. We will register our votes against it but, unfortunately, you have a majority to carry it.

Let us examine for one moment what the Budget is going to do to the people, particularly the people involved in business, and the hardships that will be created for them by this turnover tax. Also, I would like the Government Party to keep in mind the hardships already created by the Government for these people.

Deputy Sweetman told us today that business in rural Ireland and small towns is usually a mixed type of business with grocery, bar, hardware and sometimes drapery and boots. People involved in that type of business over the past number of years have had to get some type of transport. Some have got small pick-up trucks while others have got station wagons or other means of transport. They got them for the haulage and delivery of their own goods because the Government of the day have closed the railways that heretofore took the goods to these people. Only a couple of years ago, they got a substantial increase in road tax. Every year, including this year, the price of petrol has gone up. Insurance has gone up. Everywhere that a penny could be squeezed out of the medium or small business fellow, it has been squeezed out.

Take the price of social welfare stamps. Only two years ago, the price of a stamp for a man employed in a business house was 5/6. Then it went up to 9/- and since the first of January this year, it has been 10/6. The price of a woman's stamp was 4/1, then 7/7 and since the 1st of January, it has moved up to 9/1. The employer has to pay his portion of this stamp while at the same time he never can hope to get any benefit out of it. Not only that but many business houses with one or two staff employed have been appointed collectors of tax under PAYE a few years ago, as they must collect the tax from the staff and send it to the Minister for Finance.

Every year, the business man is paying a substantial increase in his rates and at the same time the population of my adopted constituency, Roscommon, is dropping and this means that there are fewer people left to buy the goods offered for sale by these small and medium people. I honestly think that the hardship that has been created for them is desperate. Take, for instance, the statement made in the Minister's speech on page 51. I will not read it as time is running out and there are others who wish to speak, but he clearly indicated that the intention was to charge a flat rate of 5/- on the first £50 of monthly turnover and 3d in the £ on the next £50.

If we take the average small businessman, his sales are usually made up of bread, butter, tobacco, cigarettes and a few other commodities. Take bread, the one that is most profitable for him to sell. He has to sell 750 loaves before he can take in £50. On that, he has a profit of £3 2. 6 and the Minister immediately claims 5/- out of it, leaving him with £2 17. 6. on his investment of £50, and his income tax has to come out of it as well. The only answer the Minister or any Government speaker gave to that point is that competition will look after it. Let me warn people on that side of the House that you can ride that horse too far. He could be a very dangerous horse to ride.

I would also like to point out what competition is doing at the moment. The 1b. of sugar costs the retailer 7d. and he sells it at 8d. and if he has to pay turnover tax, it means that he has a halfpenny less profit. A 1b. loaf, the price of which to the trader is 1/3d. he retails at 1/4d. He has a profit of 1d. but if he has to pay a turnover tax, again it reduces his profit to a halfpenny a loaf. Take the 1b. of butter which costs the retailer 4/3¼.—I stress this for the information of people on the opposite side because they seem to forget it—he retails it at 4/6d. giving him a profit of 2¾d. If he has to pay a turnover tax out of that, his profit is reduced to 1¼d. per 1b. on his investment of 4/3¼d. I do not think that is going to happen.

The higher it gets, the worse it gets. Take a cwt. of flour which costs the trader 53/9¾d. He retails it at 55/6 so his profit is 1/8¼d. If he has to pay turnover tax, it will be 1/4 which leaves him with a profit of 4¼d. on a cwt. on which he invested 53/9¾d. We are told by the Minister that competition will look after that, but there is no place in the world for competition there. I honestly think that speakers on the other side will have an awful job to convince their supporters on this.

The net result of this Budget is simply this—that the price of bread will go up by a penny a loaf, the 1b. of butter will go up by a halfpenny, the cwt. of flour will go up 1/6d., ten cigarettes will go up a penny, a 1b. of sugar will go up a halfpenny, a glass of whiskey a penny and stout a penny per pint. There is no doubt in the world that this is the only result of the Budget, and anyone who tries to say anything else is living in a fool's paradise.

This whole debate reminded me very much of what happened after the 1952 Budget introduced by Fianna Fáil. Very shortly after that, there were three by-elections and my colleague, Deputy Calleary, was one of those returned to the House for the first time in those by-elections. What happened was that the Fine Gael propaganda machine had not an opportunity to get moving properly. The people of Ireland at that time accepted that the economic situation of this State was such that the measures taken were desirable and necessary, even though they were not very palatable. The Fine Gael machine ground relentlessly on with the same type of propaganda as we have just been listening to from Deputy Reynolds and others ad nauseam for the past three weeks. Time will tell whether or not the propaganda Fine Gael have been spouting out for the past three weeks is justified. I am willing to abide by the verdict of time on the proposals introduced here.

I think that Fine Gael have seriously miscalculated the position in directing their attack on the 2½ per cent turnover tax. I think that they have misunderstood it. I do concede that there is room for misunderstanding as to its application. In the introduction of any new system of taxation which is unfamiliar to the people, there is bound to be speculation and doubt as to how it will actually operate in practice.

Deputy Harte seems to think that this new 2½ per cent tax will be administered by Fianna Fáil cumainn. He is very much misguided indeed. I understand that this tax will be operated through the existing machinery of the offices of the inspectors of taxes. We are told that it will not cost more than one per cent of the amount collected. That is something I must ask the Minister for Finance to watch and guard zealously on behalf of the people. It is most desirable that the administration of this should not exceed the figure mentioned by the Minister. I feel that it will be possible to keep it within that, if the necessary vigilance is exercised by the Minister in the years ahead.

There are one or two aspects of the Budget about which I have misgivings. I would ask the Minister to have a second look at the proposal to make retrospective any of the provisions in the Finance Bill. I hope that he will be in a position to say this evening that he will take a second look at the proposal to date back to 1962 the provision regarding corporation profits tax. I think he would be wise to do so.

As far as the 2½ per cent tax is concerned, I should like to draw the attention of some speakers who have been most vocal about its being imposed on tea, sugar and the necessaries of life, that this is not a fact when all of its provisions are taken into consideration. In this connection, I should mention to Deputy Calleary that the people with large families are not altogether in North Mayo. There are some in South Mayo also. As a result of this, I and all those others who have six children will qualify for 28/- extra children's allowances alone, representing £56 in purchasing power or 56 sixpences per month, representing £672 purchasing power per annum. It must be understood that the shopkeeper is also the father of a family and will also get the benefit by way of 10/- for the first child and additional benefits for the others thereafter. In that way, if he is the father of six children, he will be able to have an additional £672 in purchasing power. That is a substantial amount of money to lay aside for any purchases of necessaries and clothing for his family. I do not pretend to say whether or not it is enough, but having regard to the average income of people, it seems to be adequate and in fact to be more than a person would normally spend on those items in a year. Therefore the person in that situation is at least no worse off.

The person who will admittedly be worse off and contribute more to the Exchequer is the person whose expenditure is in the higher brackets. This Budget was designed in such a way that the burden would fall least on those who could bear it least and most on those who spend most. I do not see any inequity in that. On the contrary, it is by far the most equitable system that could have been introduced. It applies not merely to the individual but to the trader also and, as I said, where necessary, to other items, and time will tell.

In the meantime, the people will note the attitude of Fine Gael throughout this whole debate. It has been negative, unproductive, unhelpful. Fine Gael saw the opportunity then to castigate the Government. They saw the same opportunity in 1954. They were ready and willing to take it but they were not ready to offer alternative and practical suggestions for making the necessary revenue available. They were prepared to shove it down the throats of the people that Fianna Fáil were a cold political Party who cared nothing for the people but who had a sadistic desire to take every penny they could from them. They made that lesson stick in 1954, but, if they did, the Irish people found that there was something more involved in the responsibility of Government than putting up a placard comparing the price of tea, butter and sugar between 1952 and 1954. This told in favour of Fianna Fáil and the people have not forgotten the negative and unproductive attitude of the Opposition on that occasion.

As far as the main provisions of the Budget are concerned, the constituency I represent has benefited and will benefit still more in the coming year by the increased expenditure, particularly the increased expenditure by the Land Commission in the acquisition of land and forestry development in South Mayo. In my constituency we have not got the potential of North Mayo for industrial development and the emphasis must be laid on the other aspects of development. The promise made by the Government to provide economic holdings, which will be implemented in a Land Bill shortly to be introduced, and to provide work on forestry in my constituency, is being redeemed. The amount of money to be spent there in 1963 will again, for the third successive year, set an all-time record.

Somebody has to pay; somebody has to find the necessary money for these works. If, as happened before, a Fine Gael dominated Government were to get back in office, they would find themselves in the same position as they did in 1954, that they could not redeem their propaganda, they could not run the country without money, that they could not, at the one time, retrench and develop. Fianna Fáil do not go in for any restrictive retrenchment. They go in for development and the money necessary for that development has to be found. Admittedly, this hits certain sections of the community but in the process, it hits least those who can bear it least and it gives most back to them.

I am not surprised that the previous speaker should be annoyed with Deputies on this side of the House when they referred to the increase in taxation on the ordinary foodstuffs of life. This Budget was so framed as to put across to the people this 2½ per cent turnover tax. Quite a lot of the people did not realise that it was going to mean an increase in the price of bread, sugar, butter and all the necessaries of life. What annoys me most is that in the past few weeks speakers for the Government party have tried to put it across that this tax may be met by the shopkeepers. I should like the Minister for Finance to show me any shopkeeper, small or large, who can afford to pay this tax himself.

There is something else that has not been brought to the attention of the public, that is, that this tax also covers drugs and medicines, so that automatically, due to this increase of 2½ per cent, rates must increase. Every county council supplies drugs, medicines, and foodstuffs to the institutions for which they cater. In the face of that, I cannot understand how any speaker can say that it hits only those who can afford it. It is going to hit everybody.

I am not against the giving of grants by the Government but we must realise that this Government are giving grants for the building of luxury hotels. I am not against the building of luxury hotels but I am against overdoing it at the expense of people who, due to overspending by the Government, are now being taxed to the hilt by this 2½ per cent. The Minister for Finance is making civil servants out of the shopkeepers. In my constituency, every shopkeeper is puzzled and worried as to how he is to work this tax.

There is one question I should like to ask the Minister: Is this 2½ per cent turnover tax a tax on credit sales? If a person gives out credit to the amount of £200 in a particular month, must he pay the tax price in the following month, even if he has not collected the money?

The corporation profits tax which was 10 per cent is now being increased to 15 per cent and the former exemption up to £2,500 is no longer included. The completely unfair part of this taxation is that the Minister has made it retrospective. There are firms in this country who have closed their books for that year, who have paid their dividends, who have probably made plans for the future regarding development and who now find that the Minister for Finance can increase this tax retrospectively. No provision has been made for it by these companies and it may have the effect of retarding development and the installation of modern machinery. I would ask the Minister to think again, and if he finds that he cannot reduce the amount to the original figure, he should at least get away from the element of retrospection.

The Deputy appreciates that the Minister will be called upon to conclude at 9 o'clock. It is now 9 o'clock.

Those are the few points to which I wanted to draw the Minister's attention. This tax is cloaked, to my mind, because the people do not realise its effects. It has been brought in by a Minister of a Government who have not got an overall majority. It is our duty as the Opposition to bring to the notice of the people that the Government, without an overall majority, are putting such a burden on the people of the country. I should hate to see what they would have brought in, if they had been given an overall majority by the people of Ireland.

The Minister, to conclude.

Before the Minister starts to reply, may I ask if it is democratic procedure to close an important debate such as this without allowing every Deputy who offered an opportunity to speak?

This motion was put to the House earlier and the House agreed that the Minister should be called upon to conclude at 9 o'clock.

Nothing could be more democratic than that, even though we have not got an overall majority. First of all, I should like to point out that there was extra expenditure to be met this year under three or four headings. Service of debt accounted for about £4 million; social services and social welfare £2.67 million, education £.94 million, health, £5 million—that is another £4 million—economic services: agriculture, £2.4 million, industry, £.7 million, transport £.5 million; and forestry and fisheries £.1 million. That is another £3.8 million. General services account for another £1 million or so, so we had to cover expenditure of an extra £13 million. No speaker from Fine Gael or Labour objected in any way to any of this extra expenditure. In fact, they all tried to give the impression to the people that they also would give those social services, that they would give the services for agriculture, for education and so on; but, of course, they would not pay for them. That is the difference between Fine Gael and ourselves.

Fine Gael, and Labour also, give the impression that they agreed with all that expenditure, but they found fault with every single tax that is put on. They had some fault to find with every single tax. I want, therefore, to deal with some of the points raised. A few Deputies suggested that we need not have tried to cover all the expenditure—in other words, that we could budget for a deficit—while, at the same time, drawing attention to our very high adverse trade balance. A Budget deficit will add to an adverse trade balance because the effect of a Budget deficit is to distribute more money for spending and that, in itself, will create a balance of payments deficit, and make the case worse than it was before.

Some Deputies also said that there are no incentives for development and enterprise in this Budget. Of course, that is a very irresponsible criticism to make. It is painful, if you like, to have to draw to the attention of Deputies the amounts provided for development under the various heads. Even in the Budget Statement, I drew attention to the amount being provided for the development of agriculture, which runs to almost £40 million. The amount that is being spent on agriculture does not, as one Deputy tried to contend, cover the administrative staff of the Department of Agriculture. It is provided for the development of agriculture under the various heads.

First of all, we encourage the farmer to drain his land by providing money for drainage. Money is provided for land reclamation and improvement, and so on. Money is provided to improve his buildings and for his water supply. Money is also provided for the scheme which is operating at the moment, and which we all hope will come to an end, that is, the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. There is also expenditure on advisory services and direct subsidies.

On the industrial side, in the same way, large sums are spent on the development of various objectives. Some members of Fine Gael in their usual demagogic way tried to draw attention to the amount spent on luxury hotels. We have a Tourist Development Association here and a Tourist Board. Both said that tourism could be built up very much more, if we had more hotels. It was necessary to give grants for the building of hotels in tourist resorts. Under that scheme, grants were given for some luxury hotels which Fine Gael, in their demagogic way point out to what they call the starving people of Ireland. We will not get much progress while we have such people in the House. While some people are interested in trying to get a few votes from the few envious people, we are not likely to make very much progress. Those are some examples of what is being provided by way of incentives to development and enterprise. I should say that on the agricultural side, if one looks at the Book of Estimates, one will see that there is a big increase in the amount provided for agriculture in 1963-64 as compared with the last year of Coalition Government.

Total capital expenditure has increased from £26.7 million in 1955-56, to £79.6 million for the coming year. Deputy Sweetman suggested that we tried to cut capital expenditure when we came into office in 1957. I do not know if that is true until I look up the figures. I must accept Deputy Sweetman's assertion until I verify the figures. If we did, at least we made amends, because now it is three times as high as it was in 1955-56.

Before I go any further, I want to correct a matter which was raised by Deputy Dillon. He referred to a publication called Economic Development. As the person who produced it is not in a position to defend himself here, I must point out that Deputy Dillon said we were departing from what was stated in that document: while there had been a big increase in taxation between 1950-51 and 1957-58, “the increase in incomes which would cause a natural buoyancy in revenue has been largely wanting.” It was for that reason it was stated in that book that a sales tax or a purchase tax would not be suitable. But the position has completely changed since then. Taxation has not been increased in recent years in rate, taking it all around and, at the same time, incomes have increased very much. Therefore, the change in circumstances would warrant the consideration of whether it should be a purchase tax or a sales tax at present.

Speaking on this point, Deputy Dillon also said we had condemned this type of taxation in our first White Paper. I think that at the end we expressed the view that a sales tax, as such, would not be inappropriate to the circumstances of this country. We certainly did not turn it down completely at that time.

A good many Deputies condemned my action in the Budget of asking for returns of the amount of interest received on deposits by people who had deposits in the banks. It was pointed out by some Deputies that this was going to have a very serious influence on the amount of money left on deposit here. Some scaremongering was done and one would be afraid it might have a bad effect on people and might frighten them into taking their money out and trying to place it elsewhere. In answer to this criticism that it would result in substantial withdrawal of money, I must say I received no representations from the banks that there had been any such withdrawals.

There is no good reason why there should be. After all, most people with money placed in that way know a thing or two. They know what is going to happen. They know that in the Budget I said the Revenue Commissioners would have power, where they thought it necessary, to inquire from the banks the income of a particular person in the year 1962-63. Taking out the money now, therefore, will not save them. In addition, if a person takes it out, what will he do with it? If he wants to use it, he will have to bring it back some time. I do not see there is anything to fear. The existing relief from income tax on the first £25 of bank interest, whether in a savings bank, the Post Office Savings Bank or an ordinary joint stock bank, will still remain. The first £25 of interest will still be free of tax. I do not think we need bother further about that.

I should like also to refer to the fact that one of our daily papers contributed to a bit of mischief-making in this instance. What strikes me as very peculiar about that paper is that they have been so consistently unsympathetic with an Irish Government, no matter what Irish Government. At the same time, they have been always so understanding of any action taken by a British Government. Lest you might think I am being sectarian in this, I want to say one of our weekly Catholic papers is just about as bad— and I am not referring to The Standard.

Do you want me to sack the editor because he is Fianna Fáil?

I have not referred to it because I have not read it lately. There are two attacks made in respect of corporation profits tax. One is that it is retrospective and the other is that it is hard on the small company. First, I shall deal with the question of retrospection. I explained in my Budget that I wanted a certain amount of money. I tried to get money every way I could. I took credit for the balance in the Exchequer. I also took credit for errors in estimation—that we might have estimated expenditure too high or revenue too low. I took £2 million there. Even after that, we had to find a great deal of money by taxation.

I thought it would be fair to divide it, putting half on what you might call the better off people with money invested, and the other half on the entire population. In order to get that half, we had to get about £3 million from corporation profits tax and the money held by depositors in banks or rents from property. On investigation, I found that corporation profits tax is always put on from 1st January. There was never any departure from that. In many cases, concessions were given in corporation profits tax by way of lowering the amount to which the tax applied. They were also given from 1st January. That has been the practice at all times. I must say it suited me that that was the practice because it meant we could get this £3 million.

Who put the increases on before?

Fianna Fáil?

Of course, we are not ashamed of that at all.

Do not quote other people as a precedent.

It was the same in 1932. Whenever we put these increases on, it is always to do something good, like increasing social services, which the Coalition Government never did. It is only fair to make all companies liable from the same date, because you will have inequities, if you do not do so. That is a reason for making it 1st January, 1962, in all cases.

I want to make this point with regard to retrospection. If we had put a 1/- on the income tax, there is no doubt it would be retrospective; it always is. If we had put a 1/- on income tax, it would be taken off the last accounting period before 31st March, 1963. That might be 30th June, 1962. Therefore, we would be taking income tax off from 1st July, 1961, to 30th June, 1962, which would be far more retrospective, but there would be no objection. Of course, there might be, because Fine Gael would conjure up some objection merely because Fianna Fáil had done it.

The Minister will remember that the objection in regard to retrospection I made was as between 1st January and 5th April, 1962. You never go back to that period for income tax?

You do.

You never go back beyond the 5th April previously.

I want to correct the Deputy on this. If we had put a 1/- on company income tax, it would be taken off the last accounting period before 31st March, 1963. The Deputy knows that is true.

It is not.

That accounting period might be from 1st July, 1961, to 30th June, 1962.

Income tax is dealt with on financial years; corporation profits tax on accounting years.

Income tax would be taken——

From 5th April to 5th April.

No. The Deputy will not get away with that at all. The Deputy knows very well and that is why I am surprised at the Deputy saying it. I did not think he would do that sort of thing. It is the last accounting period that is taken for income tax. We were told about the hardship on the small companies. Here we have brought in a five per cent tax on all companies which make a profit of less than £2,500. Although they paid income tax, heretofore these companies were exempt from the corporation profits tax and we have brought in this five per cent tax on these people. In all fairness, surely even small companies should be content to contribute something, when we are, at the same time and in the same Budget, introducing a turnover tax which may—which will, I would say myself, even though others say not— increase the cost of living of everybody in the country, whether rich or poor.

That was the reason we thought it right to apply this five per cent tax to the small company as well as the big one. We reckon that 1/- in the £ on income tax would bring in about the same amount — perhaps a little less. There might have been a small difference in it. There would not have been any great crib about that: there might have been a bit of an objection from Fine Gael and maybe even from Labour, but the objection would be because we were doing it and not for any other reason.

I have examined this question of the small company in relation to the corporation profits tax, as I have examined all the arguments put up to me by Deputies up to today, to see if any changes should be made, if any concessions should be given, and I think that in this case, it is right we should make some concession. I am therefore providing in the Finance Bill that there will be a relief of 50 per cent of this tax on the small companies for the first two years; in other words, until they get down to it.

Hear, hear.

Deputy Booth wins.

There was a lot of talk about how it would affect different companies and Deputy Governey gave the most heartrending description of the man making up his accounts. Let us take a man who makes £1,000 profit. I am taking that figure because it is easy to calculate and we will all understand it. I do not want to make the sum too big. The man has £1,000 profit. He has paid out, perhaps, a certain amount in dividends, but he is asked to give only £50, or five per cent, of that £1,000. We are now bringing it down to £25 and I do not think that will upset any man in business. I think we can leave it at that.

I was asked to consider what the effect of the corporation profits tax would be on the various companies. I asked my Department to get the Stock Exchange returns before and after the Budget, and I find from the lists made out for me that, in respect of about 90 per cent of the quotations of public companies before the Budget and after the Budget, the shares were higher after the Budget. In three or four cases, they are lower and in all other cases they remain the same. Therefore, as far as the investing public are concerned, they have no fear that any company will be worse off as a result of this Budget. We can take the investing public as a neutral group of people, even though some of them may be Fine Gael and some Fianna Fáil. They will not put in money for the sake of Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael, but because they think it will pay. Their opinion of these companies at the moment is good. They do not believe that this Budget has affected them in any way. In fact, they have paid more for shares than before the Budget.

I come now to the question of rates on residential property. The widow, of course, was brought up. Nobody would ever think of saying that the poor fellow going around in a Buick might have to give up his Buick and go back to a Ford. You see, they want to draw tears from my eyes over the widow. This widow has property and if it is office property, she would have to pay income tax on it, in the same way as I am now proposing for residential property. She was paying income tax on five-fourths of the valuation and when that was added up, she knew what it came to. I cannot see any good reason why people who have an income from rents should be treated differently from anybody else. Why should such a person not pay on his income the same as any other man?

Let us go back to the widow. If she pays rates, repairs or other expenses, and if she is an invalid widow, she may have to employ an agent to collect a rent, she will be allowed all these expenses and then, on her net income, she gets the widow's allowance of £259. If it is a controlled property, the assessable amount is written down by 40 per cent; if it is not a controlled property, it is written down by 20 per cent. Then she pays her income tax. How can we say that that widow will be badly off? She will have a fair amount to live on, very much more than the Fine Gael Deputies gave us to believe the people of this country are living on at the present time. If we listened to those Deputies, we would think the people are half starved, every one of them.

Going back to this widow, if she is over 65 years of age, she gets an age allowance of another £86 or more. If she has children—one of the cases mentioned by a Fine Gael Deputy involved three children—she is allowed £120 more for each child—another £360. A widow with three children has close on £1,000 net income before she pays any income tax at all. Let us leave the widow now, having seen if she deserves our sympathy.

Mr. Donnellan

Do you remember the time she had only oats? Deputy Burke should remember that.

Deputy Sweetman asks why we call this a turnover tax. Various descriptions were put to me in the beginning. I thought we could not call it a retail tax because we were including services. I cannot for the life of me see anything political in this description: why would we be more likely to get off better politically by calling it a turnover tax? I do not see that at all. A retail sales tax brings to my mind what I have seen in America and in one country on the Continent, where each article has a tag on it. For instance, a handkerchief may have two shillings on its tag which also has marked down 2d. tax That tag is on everything that is sold, and I presume the duplicate goes back to the Revenue Commissioners.

That is the sales tax idea. I think a sales tax would also give the impression that you must put on your 2½ per cent on everything. I would say to Deputy Reynolds that if a shopkeeper must put a halfpenny on the loaf of bread, he should not do it on the lb. of sugar—the one halfpenny should be enough for him. I am not suggesting the shopkeeper should cut his profits, but if he finds it necessary to put a halfpenny on a loaf, which is a matter of a halfpenny in the 1/-, he should not have a halfpenny from the lb. of sugar which would be a halfpenny on eightpence. It would be wrong to call it a retail sales tax because it is not.

We come to the question of whether there will be an increase on every article sold. There will not, I suggest, be a halfpenny put on the box of matches, or hardly will there be a halfpenny put on a needle. I do not know what a needle costs now but we used to get them three for a penny. A box of tacks would surely not be raised a halfpenny. There is almost exactly the same tax in Sweden and Norway. It is higher, of course. As far as my recollection goes, it is six per cent in one and ten per cent in the other. It is there referred to as a turnover task. Surely the name does not matter.

Why did the Minister call it a retail tax in his White Paper?

I do not know. I mean, it is difficult to know what you must call it. It is really a turnover tax, not a retail tax. Some Deputies expressed the opinion that with very keen competition, the tax will not be passed on to the consumer. That, of course, is an optimistic opinion. On the other hand, some say that it will not be passed on to the consumer and that the shopkeeper will be ruined. These are the pessimists. That is the curious thing about this. The Fianna Fáil people say that the shopkeeper will bear it and they are optimists, and the Fine Gael speakers say that they will have to bear it and they are the pessimists. Although both have the same idea, everything on that side is pessimistic and everything on this side is optimistic. I do not think either of them is right. I think the shopkeeper will put up his price on certain articles, not on everything, and that he will end up in about the same way as he is at the moment.

Mr. Donnellan

Therefore, neither of them is right.

On that basis, I was asked a question yesterday and I got this answer from the Statistics Department. I notice that Deputies on the opposite side never stop quoting figures that suit them but they never quote those which do not suit them; they always say that they are not very reliable. I will take them as being reliable in all cases. The statistics people say if it is put on exactly on all articles the cost of living will go up by two and a quarter per cent. That is their verdict and we leave it at that. We have to omit this absurdity about putting a halfpenny on a box of matches and a halfpenny on a newspaper. I will come back to newspapers again. There are compensatory measures for a big part of the population and Deputies would be surprised to know what the figure is. In fact, I would say that Fine Gael Deputies will be very disappointed to hear it. The percentage of the population which will be compensated for this increase is 47½ per cent; in fact they will be more than compensated for this increase. The other 52½ per cent are the better off people who will bear the tax.

Deputy Sweetman said that the proper way to draw up a Budget is to fit the tax to the well-off people and not be so hard on the less well-off people. Is that not exactly what we have done? We have put on this tax and we made the case that we must compensate all these people on the lower scale and see that they are not asked to bear the brunt of this tax. Old age pensioners, contributory and non-contributory, all widows, the unemployed, both insured and assisted persons, disability benefit recipients and all children as well as most State and local authority pensioners, are compensated. The total number of people to come into these categories— you may make a note of it for yourselves—is 1,300,000 so that actually what we are doing in this Budget is we are putting on this turnover tax but we are compensating almost half the population—1,300,000 people out of 2,800,000 people—and giving them sufficient to more than cover the increase in many cases and at least cover it in all cases. That is the position and because I know that when Fine Gael Deputies go down the country they like to tell the truth, I want them to keep that figure in mind.

To give the Government fair play, you can start off your speech: "They are going to compensate 1,300,000 by giving them extra payments in their allowances, whatever they may be, and they are going to get the other 1,500,000 to pay the taxes." If you say that, I am quite sure a lot of people will say that it is damn well good enough to make 1,500,000 people pay it.

They will not believe me.

I know that, because the Fine Gael Deputies themselves do not believe it. The total money provided in a year is £4¼ million. Deputy Nicholas Egan made this point today, and it is a very good point: if you take that amount and see how many pounds would that provide sixpences for, it consists of £130 million. Out of the amount spent in this country that is a fair amount of money. It is probably about 20 per cent. Some Deputies would give us the impression that the old age pensioner, if he gets an increase of 2/6d., will be worse off on account of this tax. After all, he is getting 32/6d. and if he has to pay an extra 6d. in the £ after November 1st, that means 10d. more. That is 10d. more than he is paying at present and if he gets 2/6d. and he has to pay 10d. for the increase he is better off than he was before. I do not think we need go any further into that.

Take the 1/- for the children. A person might say that 1/- will not cover them. Well, now, 1/- will cover an expenditure of £2 in the week. We hear people talking about the poor man earning £10 a week and having four children. Will any Deputy say that he is spending more than £2 a week on each child? He would have nothing left. It is obvious that he does not spend more than £2 any week on any child. Therefore, he will have ample compensation for any increase after November 1st. In the same way you can go through all these increases and you will find that everybody is more than compensated, everybody I mean within this category of 1,300,000 people. Therefore, the man with the big family does not suffer; the man on unemployment whether insurance or sickness benefit, the sick man, the old person, the State pensioner, the local authority pensioner, all get their compensation and they will all be better off than they were before when November 1st comes along. That is why—if I might digress for a moment —Fine Gael discussed among themselves when they would have the byelection. Some people said to have it in November and some said have it now, that the shopkeepers might have made up their minds about this tax by November. Therefore, they decided it would be better to go ahead now before the people understood it.

You are a marvel. You would think of anything.

I was told that. I do not know whether it is true or not. Nearly all the Opposition speakers said that it was going to cost more than two and a half per cent. That was the general opinion amongst Fine Gael because they like to have it appear like that. In fact, I think they would not object if it worked out like that because it would suit them. They all argued that it would involve more than 2½ per cent for the consumers and at the same time there were some Fine Gael speakers who said the shopkeepers would be losing. How can it happen to both sides? You cannot have it both ways but Fine Gael will have it both ways and the result is that they are not going to let themselves down on either side because they want the votes from both sides, the consumers and the shopkeepers. I have never seen a Party so greedy for votes and like every other greedy person they never get all they want.

Shades of 1932.

Another point is that every Deputy who is against this takes the man with £8. There is no man who can spend £8, at least I do not know how he could. I do not think any man could spend all his earnings in such a way as to be liable for this tax. Many a man has to pay rent and rates. Maybe in the city he pays some of his income on bus fares.

I remember what happened in this House last year when bus fares went up. One would imagine from the attitude of the Labour men and the Fine Gael men last year when the bus fares went up that the ordinary man spent half his income on bus fares. They spoke about a man who had to work in one part of the city, whose daughter had to go to work in Drumcondra and whose other children had to go to school in Marlborough Street. The bus fares were deemed to cost half that man's income and it was said he could not bear the increase. A man may have to pay insurance or hire purchase. He is probably contributing a little to some charity or religious object.

Another thing we were told last year when the Budget came in was that all these working people spent an awful lot of money on stamps for the letters they were writing to their relatives in England—all the people who, Deputy Dillon told us, were over in London. The stamps will not go up under this. A fellow may lose a bob on a horse. He may be paying for a radio or television.

Is he charged on the bob on the horse?

No—not if he loses it.

Jimmy O'Dea is only trotting after you.

We may take it, anyway, that the man who is earning £8 or £10 or £20 a week will not have the whole of his earnings subject to this particular tax.

Next we come to the inspectors. The inspectors are a terrible bogey always with the Opposition. Maybe we had that to some extent ourselves when we were in Opposition: I do not remember. The Revenue Commissioners told me they are already dealing with 90 per cent of the retail trade in volume—not in numbers. There are already inspectors so that, as far as inspection goes, we are now coming down to the other ten per cent.

We are told that the retailers will become tax gatherers. Take these men who are paying their income tax. Are they tax gatherers? I do not know. They have to pay it, anyway. I do not think they are called tax gatherers at all.

The next thing we hear from many Opposition speakers is that we shall get a whole lot more money than we think. They appear to think I had some sinister motive in bringing in this tax. I could not get it imposed before 1st November. I tried hard—even for 1st October—but the Revenue Commissioners said no, they could not do it. If I could have done it much earlier I would have done it and in that case maybe it would not have been as high. However, it cannot be helped now.

Why would any Minister for Finance have a motive of that kind in imposing a tax for £3 million in order to get a big slice out of it next year? In my opinion, it will bring in £10½ million next year. Many Deputies on the other side say it will bring in a lot more than that. If it does, it means that speakers on the other side are putting the national income much higher than I expect it to be next year. I am putting it at a certain figure next year and on that basis I say £10½ million. If Deputies opposite prove right, and the national income proves greater than I think it will be, that is the only way in which we can get more. That will mean we shall have £7 million more on the credit side of the Exchequer next year than we have this year out of the sales tax.

Everybody knows, I am quite sure, that the service of debt will go up about £3.5 million and social welfare about £2.5 million, which is already promised and for which legislation will be introduced. We took £2 million out of the Exchequer balance: we cannot do it again—that is certain— so that cannot be done next year. If you add these up, you will get the difference between £3½ million and £10½ million. Therefore, all the money will be required, and perhaps more. I am mentioning only a few instances there where extra money will be required.

I was asked questions. Take, for instance, auctions. I was asked if goods sold by auction were liable to tax. The answer is no. I said in my Budget speech very specifically that a person selling an article of his own would not be liable to this tax. An auction would be regarded as a person selling his own goods, whether through himself or his agent. Therefore, auctioned goods will be exempt from this tax.

I was asked about the newsboy. The newsboy is not likely to register as a retailer. There will be many like him. I remember long ago—I think they have practically disappeared— pedlars, and so on. They have nearly all gone. People like that will buy from a retailer and sell. They do not come in at all. They are completely exempt. If they buy from the newspaper office itself they will be treated as retailers in that case but the newspaper boy will not be subject, as far as he is concerned, to this tax. He will get his papers at a certain price and sell them at a certain figure— whatever the newspaper may decide.

That principle, I should say also, of allowing the newsboy or pedlar or anybody like that to buy goods from a retailer and to sell without the tax could apply to the very, very small trader. I did know—perhaps they are there still—people who did very little business, maybe only £3 or £4 a week after Mass on a Sunday. That type of person could be treated in the same way.

We are told that the retailer will be compelled to keep accounts. Deputy Coogan talked about the 2,000 inspectors who will be sent down on top of the poor salesmen in respect of keeping their accounts. All they are asked to do is this. Any retailer, I am quite sure, without being asked at all, jots down at the end of the day how much he made. If he has not a till he can put his hand in his pocket, take out the money, see how much he made in the day and mark it down and, at the end of the month, add it up. He will have a form. He can fill in that amount and send on the money. That is the end of it as far as he is concerned. He will not be asked to pay on his credit business and therefore he will not be asked to pay on bad debts. It is a cash transaction. He will be asked to make up only in a very simple way the amount of money he takes in for the month, to pay whatever amount is due on that and to send it along at the end of the month.

He pays on the credit transactions when the bills are paid?

When the money comes in—yes: he pays on the money received. There are no unnecessary forms. It is the simplest tax imaginable. As far as administration is concerned, it is the simplest tax imaginable. I repeat what I said on the Budget that it will cost less than one per cent to administer.

A Deputy complained last night about the computer, saying that it would do a lot of people out of a job. That is a very primitive idea, I think, and I need not deal with it further.

If the Revenue Commissioners have a suspicion—I do not think it is likely to occur in many cases—they may possibly send an inspector round. But why do Fine Gael object? Why do Fine Gael always want to shelter the man who evades taxes?

We have no John Browns to do it.

They do not want the banks to give information either. Votes again—and the vote of a rogue is just as good as another as far as Fine Gael are concerned.

The Minister for Finance thinks that everybody is a rogue who does not like taxes.

Everybody is a rogue who wants to evade them.

What about Singer?

Some of your colleagues entertained him in Majorca.

He paid a subscription to the Party fund.

The farmers: how do they stand with regard to this tax, our project being that farmers' raw materials for agricultural purposes will be relieved of tax? Also of course plant, machinery, seeds, farm feeding stuffs and so on will be relieved. That will have to be put down in black and white because, as Deputies will understand, we cannot very well ask a man with a general business, not dealing very much perhaps with farm requisites, to keep a separate account if he sells a fork or a billhook and these are all he sells for a week. There will have to be regulations to see that it will operate smoothly.

Did the Minister say "by regulation"?

Before the Bill, we will have to see how this will be done. There is also the question of diesel oil and electricity for power. I do not know whether they can be included or not but we are talking about that with the people concerned.

Is fuel oil for factories exempted?

We are seeing what can be done.

We are also condemned on another ground. I explained on the Budget that in many cases where a man is making a fair amount of money apparently, runs a motor car, is able to dine out in the evening and dine well with his friends, he says that he has made no profit from his business. This is hard to understand but he says that he has a farm, that he made a lot of money on the farm and that is the money he is spending. He points out that on the farm he has claimed, as he is entitled to do, to be assessed under Schedule B. Now where the man has another business as well as land we are making him come under Schedule D and adding the profits of the farm and business together and making him pay up. Fine Gael do not like that.

Let us hope that Fianna Fáil will like it.

We will try to make every man pay up.

I hope you will like it.

Fine Gael would like a man to be allowed to continue that type of fraud.

About co-operation: co-operative societies will be exempt from income tax and corporation profits tax on profits arising from the purchase of fish or farm produce for the purpose of the co-operative and also on the sale of some raw materials required by farmers in their business. That should be plain enough for anybody and I do not see why Deputy Dillon in spite of explanations should talk about the threat to every co-operative society in the country.

That was not what was in the Financial Resolution.

Was it not?

The Deputy never read it until he saw it before him and he never read the White Paper which was issued three days before that either, though I thought Deputy Sweetman would be very interested in it. I thought he would be very interested in the report from the Income Tax Commission but he did not read it.

I read it and I knew your Resolution did not implement it.

I am going on to agriculture as there seems to be some doubt about what we are doing for agriculture. In a country where agricultural production is not more than what can be consumed by the people of the country, there is no great trouble. All you have to do is to fix a decent price and see that the farmers get a decent price, but in a country like this, where there is a surplus, we must find a market and usually when you find a market, the price is not as good as it should be to remunerate the farmer.

What has been done? We have tried to cut the farmers' costs of production by rate reliefs, by improving the land, by drainage, reclamation, liming and manuring, by improving farm buildings, by subsidy on artificial fertilisers, by grants for the installation of water and by educational services. These cost a lot of money. These are measures, some of which were carried out by the Government before us on a smaller scale, which we have pursued in order to give the farmer a chance of cutting his costs so as to enable him to compete. In addition, we have to give direct subsidies on goods going out so as to raise prices to the farmers and that is costing £9 million this year. The total cost under all these headings in the present year is something over £39 million.

And Fine Gael voted against that.

They vote in such a way that we cannot get money out of them.

There has been a reduction in the rural population for years back. I am not prepared to go into all the reasons but there has been a reduction in the rural population in Ireland and in order to meet that, we have increased expenditure on uneconomic holdings from £1.9 million to £2.7 million. We have expanded the forestry programme in order to give more employment in country areas from £1.2 million to £3.1 million. We have expanded turf production—I have not got the cost of that, I think—in order to give increased employment. We increased arterial drainage in order to improve the people's land and at the same time, give some employment in rural areas. Recently, very recently, if you like, the Government have been encouraging the Irish Sugar Company to engage in processing fruit and vegetables. Since the Bill was passed in the Dáil before Christmas, we have paid over £3 million to the sugar company for these purposes. The Agricultural Credit Company has been reorganised and is proceeding now at a very much faster pace than formerly. In the past five years, it has paid out £5 million and in the 25 years before that the figure was £7½ million. They are now moving at a faster rate and that in spite of the reduction in the rural population.

We have heard a lot of criticism, but not a single suggestion from any Fine Gael Deputy, not a single one on anything so far today. They criticise everything but we have not heard a single suggestion as to what is to be done. In fact, Deputy Dillon said when he was making his speech, that he was prepared to take over right away. He knew he could put things right. Deputy Sweetman said he could bring in a Budget that would be far better for the country than this one. But nobody told us what is to be done.

Why should they?

They are going to solve the problem, but they know very well that they have not a chance of coming in for years and they are going to withhold that remedy from the farmers of the country. They will not tell us what it is. Is that fair to the people or to the farmers of the country? Deputy Sweetman knows what is to be done but he will not tell us.

They are running away.

Do you hear the widow?

Do they think the people of the country are going to support them on such a plea: we know how things ought to be done but you are not to know?

Put it to the test by dissolving the Dáil.

Anyway, the population is still going down.

You cannot blame Fine Gael for that.

You cannot blame Fianna Fáil either, and what I want to know is if they can tell us how we will be able to stop it but nobody has been able to tell us. You cannot blame people if they say that what we are doing is wrong, but when we try to get them to make some practical suggestion of their own about what should be done, they will not tell anybody what they think ought to be done. That is going too far. In the past ten years, the output of agriculture has gone up by 17 per cent although the population has gone back almost 20 per cent, so that there is one thing certain anyway, that even if the population has gone down, work has gone up, and it is easy to see that the people who were there then were in fact under-employed. I remember myself, and of course Fine Gael Deputies if they were honest enough would admit it, that ten or 15 years ago if I were looking for a man for threshing, I would have about 20 waiting for the job but in the past two years I could not get one.

A Deputy

They have all gone to England.

I was just going to make the point that the farmers all over the country cannot get casual labour now because the people in this country in the past seven or eight years have made up their minds that they are not going to live on casual labour and they have gone to England if they could not get work anywhere else, because they would not have that kind of life any more. It is a pretty precarious life. But those remaining behind have done more work and their income is 40 per cent higher per person as a result of that exodus from the country.

In those economic statistics cited, there was a mistake made. I do not know where it was made and I am not going to say how it was made but it is obvious that it did go on more than in the last year. They could pass the whole thing back and in fact could go back far enough to have some other Governments bear some of the blame too.

One thing should be noted, that in these statistics every year you will see the number of people "employed in industry" and "engaged in agriculture", because the people in statistics recognised that the people who were in the rural areas should be said to be engaged in agriculture, not employed, because a lot of them were only casuals, getting odd days now and again and trying to make a very precarious living. We will leave that until the figures are corrected and we know exactly where we stand.

You will be out of office then.

I would not mind putting a bet on that, but we will do that outside.

There was a bet last week that was deleted from the records of the House.

The Deputy was prepared to take a bet of £5 to a penny that he was right. I would take that bet myself.

I am talking about the Minister for Justice.

There was an even fiver as well.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy spoke for two hours and ten minutes and he ought to let me to speak for 15 minutes. In spite of all these items we hear about, the national income since 1957 has gone up from £438 million to £632 million, and exports from £114 million to £174 million. Who are doing the exports? We hear in every speech from Fine Gael that employment has gone down in the past ten years by 60,000 people or whatever figure came into their heads. How could that be when exports went up from £114 million to £174 million and the national income from £438 million to £632 million? That is an extraordinary thing. We must be becoming very competent people if we have 60,000 gone out of employment and have almost twice as much national income as we had ten years ago.

Another thing—you might say that perhaps the national production figures are cooked, but you cannot cook the exports and you cannot cook the income tax, which has doubled practically in the past 15 years. People do not pay income tax unless they have the income. Their incomes must be up if they are paying double the tax, because the rate has been brought down from 7/6 to 6/4 during that time. If it were 7/6 still, we would be getting a whole lot more from income tax.

So everything points to more production, greater work being done, exports up, more taxes collected and so on. But still we have this ullogoning of Fine Gael that employment has gone down by 60,000, that unemployment is going up, but they forget that when we took over the figure was 95,000. It was never like that since then. Emigration is going up, they say. It is now 12,000 but when we took over it was 65,000, so there you are. All these things we have been listening to in the interests of democracy. I agree, of course, that the Government should make proposals and the Opposition have a right to oppose, but really they should not be obstructive. I would like also to say that I have been at this job now for over six years and I can truthfully say that during those six years I never heard a constructive suggestion from Fine Gael. Did anyone ever hear one? They did not. It is all right to oppose but you are expected to make some constructive suggestion now and again. Why do you not do it?

The suggestion is to resign.

That is a good suggestion.

After listening to this debate by the two Parties, both Fine Gael and Labour, I have no hesitation in agreeing with what Deputy Burke said here, that it is just hypocrisy.

He is a good judge of it.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Norton must allow the Minister to continue his speech.

It is absurd to quote Deputy Burke.

Deputy Norton voted against increases for the old age pensioners.

It is just hypocrisy.

(Interruptions.)

I had to listen to you for seven days. Why will you not listen to me now?

Of course we are listening. We are enjoying it.

If we increase the social welfare benefits or the payments to agriculture, we must get the money for it.

(Interruptions.)

Not a single Deputy, either Labour or Fine Gael, made any suggestions about how to get the money. Last year when we asked for extra taxes, they voted against them, and now they vote against everything this year. It is all very well for Deputy Norton to make a joke of it, but we cannot give these increases unless we get the money. We could, as was done in the past, either cut social welfare or give no increases in social welfare, or cut the price of milk. Then we would not want the money at all but we are increasing those things and so we want the money.

I think it is time for me to come to a conclusion now. Fine Gael want a showdown on this thing. They want Fianna Fáil put out and Fine Gael put in but they do not tell us what they would do if they were put in. They say that is what they want but is that really what they mean? Do they really want a general election?

A lot of them would go out and not come back.

I would be sorry not to see the Deputy back.

I can see a lot of difference in the faces over there.

When an election comes, we will go up as Fianna Fáil with our record behind us. What will Fine Gael do? They have been talking about the benefits of Coalition Government but apparently they are not going forward for Coalition Government. Why? Is it because it was not a success?

(Interruptions.)

If it was not a success, why do they not say so? Why do they leave it to me to say it? They are now going up for a single Party Government. In 1954 and 1957, they said that we were despots because we went up as a single Party Government and they even said that Coalition Government was not democratic enough for them. It had to be an inter-Party Government. That is all past and gone now. They are going up now as a single Party Government. At least that is what they are telling the people.

They sold the North and they would sell their souls to get into power but they are not going to get away with it.

(Interruptions.)

Some of the Labour speakers and Deputy McQuillan said that we should coalesce with Fine Gael. Why should the Labour Party and Deputy McQuillan, who did coalesce with Fine Gael, want to give us a chance at that? If it had been a pleasant experience for them, they would not let us in for it. I am not at all thankful to them for the suggestion and I can tell them that we have no intention of doing it. We will let Fine Gael go ahead on the single Party issue and we will go as Fianna Fáil with our record behind us.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 59.

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hillery, Patrick.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Leneghan, Joseph R.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Con.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sherwin, Frank.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.

Níl.

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barron, Joseph.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Burton, Philip.
  • Carroll, Jim.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan D.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Dan.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Everett, James.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Mullen, Michael.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donnell, Thomas G.
  • O'Higgins, Michael.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. K.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sheridan, Joseph.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tierney, Patrick.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan; Níl: Deputies O'Sullivan and Tully.
Question declared carried.

You will not clap after the North-East Dublin byelection.

Can the Minister tell us when the Finance Bill will be circulated?

I am afraid not until the end of the month.

Are you getting afraid of it?

This Resolution and Resolutions 1 to 13 come to by the Committee on 23rd April, 1963, reported and agreed to.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 9th May, 1963

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