Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 May 1965

Vol. 215 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 21—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a sum not exceeding £161,210 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1966, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other Services administered by that Office, including a Grant-in-Aid; and of the Public Record Office, and of the Keeper of State Papers and for the purchase of Historical Documents, etc.—(Minister for Justice.)

Mr. Norton

There are a few points I should like to make on this Estimate. On the question of the Ground Rents Commission, I would ask the Minister to see that the necessary legislation to implement the Commission's findings is introduced with all the speed and urgency it deserves. I am aware that complicated factors are involved but as ground rents and leaseholds affect such a large number of people I hope the Minister will see his way to give this legislation priority. A large number of the ground rents and leaseholds, as the Minister knows, will fall due for renewal about this time and many landlords will make use of the present property boom to squeeze the last shilling from the tenants.

It may be pointed out that if the tenant has a grievance and if he fails to reach agreement with the landlord, he has the right to go to court but this involves legal expense which many people may not wish to incur or may not be able to afford. There is also the fact that many decent people have a horror and fear of the courts and will allow themselves to be coerced by the landlord or the agent to reach some settlement rather than face the ordeal of a court appearance. As well, there is the fact that many of them are not treated with the sympathy they deserve when they do go to court.

Since the Labour Government came to office in England, new trends in relation to property companies have been driving these companies to buy up large slices of Irish property so that Irishmen are becoming mere tenants in their own land. I am against foreigners, whatever their nationality, coming here to by Irish land and property. There is an urgent necessity for legislation to give each man the right to purchase his own ground rent or freehold. Only then will our people have security in their homes and businesses.

Another matter I should like to raise is the jury system. I would ask the Minister to consider the present method of selecting people for jury service. It is unreasonable to expect a man to give freely of his time from his business or profession. Many of the people liable for jury service are self-employed. They go into court to act as jurors and may attend the court several mornings before being called to service. Naturally a man in that position is concerned at the time being wasted and consequently at the money he is losing. Then he is expected to sit down calmly and give fair and impartial treatment to the case he hears. That is asking a lot of human nature and I do not feel such a juror is temperamentally suited to deal with problems in a high and noble manner.

Surely today, when there are so many people retired and living on pensions, it ought to be possible, particularly if we make realistic payments by way of travelling expenses and the cost of meals, to get elderly retired people to act as jurors. We would have the advantage that we would be drawing on the more sensible judgement and maturity that comes with age. It would lead to a far better jury system than the present one and I feel sure these people would be happy in the feeling that they were wanted and that they had something to contribute to the community in their retirement.

On the question of motor car parking in Dublin, I am not quite sure whether this comes under the jurisdiction of the Minister for Justice. If it does, the problem of parking meters should be dealt with with far more urgency than appears to be the position at the moment. I should like to see them introduced in the main shopping streets in this city and throughout the country. It would then be possible to stop for a short period, go into a shop and transact your business in a reasonable fashion. At present the man who drives his car into the city arrives at about 9 o'clock, parks his car and leaves it there all day. This is choking up the streets and everybody is aware that it is a most unsatisfactory arrangement. I hope the Minister will deal with this matter and treat it as a matter of urgency. Those are the only points I wish to make and I hope the Minister will consider them when preparing further legislation.

Mr. O'Hara

I want to avail of this opportunity to say, as many other Deputies have already said, that we have a very fine police force. Down the years the Garda have given excellent service. In recent times many young men have entered the force and we are proud that they have followed the good traditions of the older men. These younger men have the advantage of the experience and advice of the older men. They have, too, come in at a time when more peaceful conditions prevail. As one passes through the city or through the country towns, one cannot help nothing the fine physique and appearance of the young gardaí. Speaking from experience, I must say that they are most courteous and obliging and have rarely been known to hound anybody, so to speak, or go looking for trouble. They have the co-operation and goodwill of all our citizens and I hope that that state of affairs will continue.

From time to time when reading the newspapers, one notices a big difference in fines imposed by district justices for similar offences. In one court somebody who had no tail-light on his car is fined 10/- while in another court, for a similar offence, a person is fined £2 or £3. That does not impress the ordinary citizen and it does not always seem that justice is done. It is a pity that we could not have more uniformity in the fines imposed for similar offences. From time to time people feel that they have got a raw deal in court because of this disparity.

Coming from a rural area, I should like to say that the courthouses themselves are not what one would like them to be. Conditions for the district justices or the judge, for the lawyers, the newspapermen and the litigants are very poor indeed in many rural areas. If it would be possible to have these facilities improved, it would be very desirable. People often have to come in perhaps ten or 15 miles from rural areas, perhaps on bicycles, and on arrival may find the courthouse crowded and they have to stand around waiting. In winter time they may have to wait in conditions of the greatest discomfort. I would ask the Minister to try to have these facilities improved.

One matter raised many years ago is the question of Garda uniforms. It took successive Ministers a long time to do anything about changing the uniform. The present uniform is very smart but I would suggest that a change could now be made in the cap which has outlived its usefulness. I should like to see a lighter cap. The cap which the Ban-Ghardaí wear is very becoming and I suggest we could have something like it for the male garda. I hope the Minister will look into that and I hope it will not take him as long to make up his mind as it did some Ministers in the past with regard to making a change in the uniform.

The question of sports facilities for the Garda has also been mentioned. It will be appreciated that in the more remote rural areas it is not always possible to provide football or hurling for these young men. That is a pity and it would be a very good thing if they had some form of outdoor amusement. The Minister should recommend to the officers of the Garda that these facilities should be provided even if it were necessary to provide a park within a county, or to provide transport to enable the men to get out of the barracks to play hurling or football, or whatever other sport they might wish to play. The superintendents and the sergeants could help greatly in this regard. It is a pity to have men of 23 or 24 years of age sitting in the barracks, perhaps playing cards, when they could be engaged more actively in an outdoor sport.

Finally, I want to say that we have now a very young Minister from Connacht, who understands the problem in the rural areas and who is a very active man not alone in his constituency but throughout the west. If he keeps these matters to which I have referred in mind, I believe he can improve the lot of the Garda a great deal.

Mr. Booth

I should like to follow up on a previous speaker who referred to jury service. At present a very limited number of people is obliged to give this service and I think far too many are exempt from it. The original idea, I suppose, was that people with high technical qualifications would not rank as being ordinary men in the street and as being ideal jurors. It was felt that they might be unduly confused by their own technical problems and could not give as clear a decision on purely matters of fact. In my view that is entirely outdated. We live in a highly technical age and it is very hard to get anyone who is not technically qualified in some way. I see no reason why, for instance, a civil engineer should be regarded as any less suitable for jury service than a plumber or a carpenter or any other tradesman. At the same time, I agree with the previous speaker who stated that it is a tremendous burden on a man living on a small wage, or self-employed, to have to give a fair amount of time to jury service for a very nominal fee, if anything.

If we are going to continue jury service at all, I think we shall have to be far more realistic and pay a reasonable fee to jurors for travel and attendance. That would have to cover days on which they were called to be jurors-in-waiting as well as the days on which they are actually engaged on a jury. The number of cases referred to juries at the moment is, I think, too big and it will be well for the Minister to keep this in mind when considering this matter, as he has said he is doing, under expert advice. I object very strongly to cases of damages in road accidents being referred to a jury. It is right that jurors should be called on to decide the facts of the case and to give impartial verdicts as to where the main responsibility for a road accident really lies but when it comes to the issue of damages for injury, I think the jurors are the least capable of giving a fair assessment.

It is common knowledge that what very often happens in such cases is that the foreman of the jury tries to get some agreement on a figure for damages once liability has been decided. It is very rare that unanimity, or anything like it, is reached in the early stages and the jurors are then usually asked by the foreman to write down the figure which each one has in mind. I know from those who have been on such juries that the figures very to quite a fantastic extent. One juror will be in favour of £10,000; another juror will be in favour, perhaps, of £50. It is not at all unusual to have that wide discrepancy and that is because we are all, as private individuals, prejudiced to some extent. We are either prejudiced as motorists, as cyclists or as pedestrians and it is very hard to get that out of our mind. If you are a pedestrian and the injured party is a pedestrian it is very hard not to say: "It is time we gave the motorists something to think about and I shall award £10,000 damages. That will keep them quiet for a bit."

If the juror is a motorist, he may feel prejudiced because he believes pedestrians are far too apt to wander thoughtlessly into the roadway and to think it is about time they got some warning by the award of purely nominal damages when they suffer injury in such cases. The assessment of damages in these cases is really more a matter for an actuary who is able to assess what the immediate damage has been and also the possible loss of income in the future. I should hope that while jurors may be retained to decide purely matters of fact, the calculation of damages should be left to experts who could advise the judge in the matter. I should hope, therefore, that in this review of the jury service generally, we would be able to spread the load much more widely over the whole community and make many more people liable for jury service than are liable at present. I hope we shall restrict the number of cases referred to juries and I also hope that when a man is called for jury service he will be adequately paid, whether he is called on to serve or not, for his loss of time and his travelling.

In regard to free legal aid, I was rather disappointed by one quotation by the Minister from a speech by his predecessor. This gives me some cause for anxiety. I fear I have not got the exact quotation before me but there was an indication that free legal aid would not be readily granted to people who appeared to be making crime a career. From the ordinary commonsense point of view, I can see that seems reasonable but we must never forget that any accused person comes before the court as an innocent person until proved guilty. The fact that a man may have a long record of previous convictions must not allow anyone to conclude that he is guilty in a particular case. A previous criminal career should not in itself be any obstacle to the granting of free legal aid if the case is one of sufficient complexity to warrant it.

In his speech yesterday, Deputy Ryan made some reference to differences in the handling of cases of motoring offences. He appeared to give the impression that he felt that while people who broke into and entered premises were real criminals, motorists who were found guilty of dangerous driving were in a different class altogether. I deny that absolutely. I feel that people who are guilty of dangerous driving are criminals in the very worst sense. The sooner we get this across to them, the better. No one has a right to take a car out on the road and drive it in a dangerous manner any more than he has a right to go around with a loaded gun. A motorcar is no less a lethal weapon than a loaded gun and it can be far more dangerous. With a loaded gun, you can kill only one person. With a speeding car you can kill many.

Anyone who, out of sheer selfishness or impatience or even bad manners, endangers the life or safety of his fellow man should be very severely punished without any mercy whatsoever. If we tinker with this problem, we are going to encourage young irresponsible people with more money than sense to drive to the public danger. It is only by making it perfectly clear that these people are worse criminals than those guilty of burglary or anything else that we will grapple with the problem.

So far as the Garda are concerned, I have the greatest respect for the force and I think they are operating with amazing efficiency. It is a very smooth running machine. Its record of crime detection is excellent. I had a case only recently when one of my sons lost a bicycle. The bicycle was stolen. It was recovered by the Garda within 24 hours, many miles away. Granted, my young lad had the sense to memorise the number of his bicycle. He was able to give the number immediately at the Garda station to which he reported the loss, and that was a help. I only wish, and I think the Garda also wish, that other cyclists would co-operate in the same way. To find a stolen bicycle within 24 hours about six or seven miles away from the place where it was stolen was quite an achievement. I was amazed to find that the Garda did not regard this as anything unusual; they regarded it as purely routine.

I hope everyone will give the Garda their absolute, unqualified and full support in a very difficult job which they are doing extremely well but I feel that in some cases they are being discouraged by what they deem to be a lack of support from the district justices. I have got this complaint on too many occasions to be able to dismiss it as being irresponsible. I know that we have provided in legislation that there shall be regular meetings of district justices in order to try to achieve a higher degree of standardisation of penalties. I hope the district justices will also be encouraged in every way to give more support to the Garda than they are doing at present. Certainly, in the public mind, quite apart from the Gardaí themselves, there is an impression that district justices are being far too lenient and that fairly serious cases are being dealt with under the Probation Act or by means of the imposition of very small fines. I am not in favour of undue severity but I feel there has got to be greater severity on the part of district justices than is being experienced at the moment and if this is not forthcoming there will be a tremendous temptation to the Garda not to pursue their inquiries with as much enthusiasm as they display at present. They must be assured that when they bring a person before the courts and when that person is convicted he or she will be properly punished and the forces of law will thereby be strengthened.

I should like, in conclusion, to convey my good wishes to the Minister as he starts his new term of office. He has got off to a very good start. I wish him the best of good luck, particularly in the furthering of the programme of law reform which is already in progress. There is much to be done still. While we do not want to move with undue haste, I know we can rely on him to press on with this programme to the best of his very considerable ability.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

Previous speakers have paid tribute to the Garda. All of us would join in those tributes. The young Guards look a very smart collection of men. I am very glad to see that attention is paid to the cut and smartness of the uniform. We can all remember when, years ago, there was not the same good tailoring displayed. I am sure it is something that the gardaí themselves are pleased about because nothing looks better than a well-cut uniform.

I should like to say a few words about the traffic gardaí, the courtesy cops. They are very good and do a great deal to relieve traffic conditions both in Dublin and on the outskirts. We could have more of them. On the various bridges going out of Dublin— Charlemont Bridge and so on—across the canals and rivers, but especially the canals, there is tremendous congestion in the evenings. It is like seeing manna from Heaven to see a traffic cop arrive, take control of the situation, disentangle everything and the lines of traffic move slowly on. I would ask the Minister to remind the Garda Síochána that we do need, if anything, more of these men. On the Stillorgan Road also, they can do and they do a great deal to keep the traffic moving and to make the traffic behave itself, because you get people moving out of line and tangling up the whole traffic system.

Various speakers referred to our jury system and the method of selection. I think it was Deputy Booth, the last speaker, who said the various professional men were thought in the past to be too technical for jury service. I had never had the idea that that was the reason they were exempt. I thought doctors and various other persons were exempt on account of the hardship that it would cause them if they had to give up their professional duties, that it was felt that it was not as great a deprivation in the case of a businessman, that the could get someone else to look after the shop in his absence. I thought that was the basis for the exemption of certain professional people. If there is any basis for the statement made by the previous speaker I would think it was time that the position was altered.

What I really wanted to speak about with reference to the jury system is the fact that we do not have women on juries. We are all aware of the very noble work done years ago by women trying to get the right to vote and legal rights of various sorts. Down, through the years, fine work was done by these pioneering women, some of them suffragettes but many of them not active suffragettes but sympathisers with this cause of justice and legal rights for women.

It does seem a pity that nowadays, when these rights are fully conceded to women and when we have women barristers and women solicitors practising in the courts, there are no women serving on juries. I have been told the reason is that it was so difficult to get them to serve, that they put up one excuse after another, that eventually the system broke down and it was decided it was easier not to call them at all. Whether that is a fact or not I do not know, but, at any rate, one way of easing the burden of jury service on the ordinary citizen would be if women did their share of this type of work. Nowadays when women are engaged in all sorts of activities, some of it not very pleasant, there is no foundation for the idea that women, in the main, would shrink from this work. We are deprived of the benefit of their attitude of mind, especially in certain kinds of cases where it could be of great benefit. I do not know how far the Minister has thought about this or if it would require legislation but I think I am correct in saying it would not require legislation, that it is just a matter that was slowly allowed to drop.

I would make this plea to the women's societies, that in view of the very great work done by many noble women in the past, a great number of whom were Irishwomen—Irish-women played an important part in the struggle in the English-speaking world for the rights of women—they should not allow these sacrifices made in the past to be left as if there had never been a struggle for them.

There is one point I wish to make in connection with the Garda whom we have all praised yesterday and today. I, in company with other Deputies, get requests sometimes for housing. A doctor was speaking to me the other day and he asked me to take up the case of a garda who has six children with whom he is living in a flat. One of the children is delicate and needs a special place to play. It seems a pity that with this body of men we do not do more to provide houses for the married members. It would not require very many houses and I am sure the local authorities would co-operate with the Department of Justice and the Garda authorities if this matter were taken up with them. It would certainly be a very great help to the Garda and would be an inducement to join the Force.

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and I am sure he will make a success of his office.

Mr. Wyse

I should like to compliment the Minister on his endeavours to achieve perfection in the working of his Department. We are all interested in methods of preventing crime and I am glad the Minister in his brief has mentioned boys' clubs. I have had long experience of this work and I can confidently say that such clubs run by responsible bodies can be a means of saving our young people from crime. Such clubs can be a means of education and the uplifting of a boy and, furthermore, under proper supervision, they can mould a boy to take his place in the community. Many problems concern boys' clubs but the main one is finance. I wonder if the Minister, in the very near future, would consider helping, by way of grant or otherwise, these voluntary bodies, who are doing such wonderful work in the community.

With reference to the walkie-talkie system at present in use in Dublin, should this prove successful here, I would ask the Minister to introduce it in Cork city and other cities throughout the country. This system has proved very successful in other large cities throughout the world and I am sure it would be of great benefit to our police force.

The Minister made no reference in his brief to unsolved murders but I am sure the Garda are continuing their investigations in this respect. Nevertheless, the Minister should give an assurance to the people that all necessary steps are being taken to bring the people responsible to justice.

I am glad to know also that the report on malicious injuries to persons and property is now in the hands of the printer. The local authorities are very much interested in this aspect of the Minister's Department. Finally, I should like to join with other members of the House in paying tribute to the Garda Síochána. They are a wonderful body of men and a credit to our nation.

Mr. Cosgrave

I raised here some months ago by way of question to the Minister the matter of the sale of knives. The question was specifically directed to the problem of flick knives and other knives of a dangerous character. I noticed from the Minister's reply that the investigations carried out by the Garda indicated that there was no evidence available to suggest that the stabbing incidents which had occurred were due to any great extent to the number of persons carrying these knives, although it had been established that in certain cases stabbing incidents, some of a serious character, had occurred in which different sorts of knives were used. However, I should like to urge on the Minister that this matter should be the subject of further consideration.

There is a tendency nowadays, particularly in urban areas, towards gang warfare between teenagers or young persons. While the number of fatal accidents has fortunately been small, cases have occurred in which serious injury has resulted. Indeed, in some cases, the fact that serious injury did not result was due more to good fortune than to any lack of intent on the part of those concerned. Whether this development is due to the fact that on TV and films, and other modern means of communication of ideas and activities, these activities are portrayed, or whether there is some other reason is a matter for argument, but these modern media of communication must have an effect on young people and on their general outlook. It is important, in my opinion, in a matter of this sort to take action before there is any extension of these very undesirable activities. It may be too late to take action when an extension of such gang warfare causes either serious injuries or results in fatal consequences.

As other speakers have remarked during the debate, many weapons and many forms of activity are quite proper, if properly controlled and directed. Reference was made to the fact that, if a car is properly driven, it is unlikely that any serious consequences will occur because of recklessness or disregard for the safety of other road users. Similarly, in the case of knives or firearms, if what are normally safe weapons or instruments are used for an improper purpose, used recklessly or without regard to consequences, then the results will be entirely different. I believe, therefore, that it is important to examine this whole question again to see whether some action is not possible before there is any extension of gang warfare. I know that in some urban areas this gang warfare is causing concern to the Garda authorities. In that connection there is, I believe, far too great a tendency, because of a somewhat too sympathetic enthusiasm generated over a period by those anxious for penal reform, to approach matters of this sort in a too tolerant way and, for want of a better description, to mollycoddle criminals.

In recent times I think there is a general realisation, with certain exceptions, that the attitude exemplified by Lord Justice Goddard in Britain produces better results in the long run. It must be brought home to those who are criminally minded or have criminal inclinations that crime does not pay and that the full rigours of the law will be applied to ensure that they are made to realise the consequences of their actions. Punishment, if it is adequate, is still a great deterrent, but, if there is a tendency to treat offenders with undue leniency or sympathy, we can scarcely hope to achieve a reduction in crime.

I believe there is today a great responsibility on parents to ensure proper control of their children. Much attention is being paid by sociologists and others, who study this problem, to the lack of adequate parental control nowadays over young persons. In many cases these young people, who get into trouble of one sort or another, start on the slippery slope because of lack of effective parental authority and subsequently find themselves involved in many cases with the law.

In connection with traffic, I support those who have said that speed restrictions should be rigidly enforced. There is general agreement that the Garda patrols on traffic do a very fine job. They have to deal with a situation which grows daily more difficult because of the increase in the number of vehicles using our roads. I believe speed restrictions have had a desirable effect. On the other hand, parking restrictions are occasionally imposed with unnecessary severity. Some consideration should be given to ensure that the rights of traders and others carrying on business are not interfered with, except where interference is absolutely necessary. If adequate parking facilities are made available in proximity to business areas, that will obviously ease a difficult situation. In every case in which facilities are not available, outside of main traffic arteries, consideration should be given to allowing, wherever possible, parking on alternate days.

I understand from some of those who have visited reformatories recently that the facilities in many cases still leave a great deal to be desired. Wash-up, toilet and other facilities are in some cases very primitive. Some of the young people who find themselves in these establishments are there because of circumstances quite outside their own control. Their parents may be dead or they may be children from homes that have, for one reason or another, broken up. They are in a different category from the children who come from families in which the parents reside with the children and in which the parents should exercise full responsibility and control. Many of the children in these establishments, there through no fault of their own, turn out to be excellent citizens and an example to many from whom more might be expected. I believe the facilities in these places should be improved in order to encourage the reform and rehabilitation of all concerned.

I endorse the well deserved tributes which have been paid to the Garda force of today. The Garda are undoubtedly an excellent example of manhood and womanhood today and worthy successors, indeed, to a great tradition.

Mr. Dowling

I should like to pay tribute to the Legion of Mary whose members visit St. Patrick's Institution and have done tremendous work for the young people there. They visit employers and seek suitable employment for the boys on release. They follow that up by visiting the homes and keeping family ties together. Voluntary organisations, such as the Legion of Mary, which participate in this great work deserve the support not alone of the local people but of the nation as a whole. I should like to pay a deserved tribute to all of them. If more voluntary effort were put into the prevention of crime and assisting those unfortunate enough to find themselves in trouble, the lot of the Department and of the Garda would be much easier. I should like also to pay a tribute to the Garda for their efficiency and bearing. However, there is one matter which requires attention. Sport has been mentioned here. I have been connected with sport over a period. I hope sport will be developed as an outlet for the energies of young people and that no restriction will be placed on gardaí in participating actively in sport. I know of one case in the not too distant past in which a member of the Garda, who represented his country at the Rome Olympics and on many other occasions in the international field, had to take part in an international contest at the Stadium at 10.30 p.m. and had to be on duty at 12 o'clock. Apparently, this unfortunate situation arose because he was not attached to a Garda club. It should not be allowed happen again. I would ask the Minister to ensure that every facility is given to these young men so that their leisure hours will not become uninteresting and they will have contacts outside the police force that will be of assistance to them at a later stage.

I should like to pay a very special tribute to one man who has done an immense amount for the youth of this city. As a Dublin man, I should like to pay tribute to Detective Sergeant Jim Brannigan. He deserves the greatest possible credit for his handling of the youth of this city, both in crime and outside it, and for the assistance he has given to young people. I am sure he has done more to keep them out of trouble than any other member of the Force. His actions in the past are well known to Deputies, to the judiciary and certainly to a large number of parents who have relied on him for advice and guidance in keeping their children on a straight course.

Recently, I had occasion, along with the Minister, to visit the new Garda barracks in Crumlin. It is an excellent barracks and provides all the facilities desirable. Nevertheless, although many have been improved in the past, there are other barracks where the accommodation is bad. I would refer particularly to the barracks at Chapelizod. The young members of the Force who go to these barracks come from good homes. They expect to have the same standard of comfort in them as they had at home. It is depressing when they find the accommodation and facilities are bad. This can have a serious effect on further recruitment, because the word will soon get around that all is not as it should be.

The parking situation in Dublin has become very grave. The changeover from the horse to the mechanised vehicle has been a change from a mare to a nightmare. It certainly requires consideration by all concerned. The strictest possible enforcement of traffic and parking regulations is one solution to the problem at present; some people can park their cars in the city for up to seven hours while others who park for only an hour and five minutes get tickets. These tickets are now regarded by country people as souvenirs of Dublin. Many people who come from the country to spend an hour in the centre of the city find they cannot park unless they pay £1. If the parking regulations were strictly enforced, they would know that no section of the community were getting an undue advantage.

In regard to driving offences, the punishment does not always fit the crime. Most motoring offences take place during hours of pleasure motoring. The suspension of his licence because of a minor offence can have far reaching effects for a man who has to earn his living by driving. It may result in loss of his employment with a consequent effect on his wife and family. Where the suspension of the licence interferes with a person's livelihood, consideration should be given to allowing him drive during the hours of work but prohibiting him from driving during the hours of pleasure motoring and, perhaps, extending the period of suspension. But for minor offences I do not think his livelihood should be impaired.

Minister for Justice (Mr. B. Lenihan)

We have had a very constructive debate from all sides on this Estimate. The points raised have been many and varied. Naturally, the recurring theme was the anxiety displayed by Deputies in regard to the crime situation. I and my Department have been equally concerned with this position. The reality of the matter is that crime in its serious aspects is largely crime in the Dublin metropolitan area. The figures reveal that about 65 per cent of the indictable crime in the country occurs in the Dublin metropolitan area, in which there is about a quarter of the total population.

That fact is responsible for our thinking in regard to strengthening the Garda Síochána in the metropolitan area. We have not reduced the country stations to the extent stated by some Deputies. In fact, since 1st January, 1963, we have closed only five rural stations. We have, of course, reduced the numbers in the rural areas and strengthened the position in the Dublin metropolitan area, in accordance with a realistic assessment of the crime position in the country as a whole and recognising the fact that organised crime is largely a matter for the Dublin area. We have increased the strength of the force by 100 in the past 12 months, and placed them in the areas where crime is most apparent.

Deputy Cosgrave raised a point in regard to flick knives. I shall certainly have a further investigation made into that particular matter, but on the facts as they appear so far, I feel it has been exaggerated to some extent. In eight recent stabbing incidents flick knives were not used. Pen knives or butchers' knives or table knives were used, not flick knives. The matter of flick knives is in the public mind, I suppose, because they are used in gang warfare in Britain but they are not a menace here. However, I will have the matter re-examined in greater detail with a view to the preparation of legislation if necessary. On the facts as they appear so far, the use of flick knives is not the menace some people believe it is.

In regard to law reform, which I mentioned in introducing the Estimate, this subject has been touched upon by many speakers. Juries in particular have come in for mention, and various aspects of jury service were raised. I am very conscious of the importance of this matter, and I have just had to hand a very full report from the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure in regard to jury service in all its aspects, on the question of extending the scope of jury service, broadening the class of people liable for jury service, and on some form of remuneration for that service. I am examining the matter at the moment and on both the aspects of broadening the scope of jury service, and introducing a more practical and up-to-date system of remuneration, I am sympathetic. If my final view is on the lines of my present thinking, I will, I hope, be introducing legislation later on to rectify the position.

There is very divided opinion, even among members of the legal profession, on the question of juries in civil actions. Some people come down very strongly and say the jury system is antiquated in regard to assessing liability or damages, while others say 12 ordinary people are possibly the best cross-section to decide on liability or damages. This, again, is a matter on which I am awaiting a report from the Committee of Inquiry on Practice and Procedure in the Courts. I have an open mind on the subject, but I feel that some reform is probably necessary. I hope we will make some progress on this matter in the coming months as well.

Another aspect of law reform is the question of legal aid. Deputy Fitzpatrick had something to say on this matter last night. I want to state emphatically that in no circumstances could we have a situation where legal aid would be free and available to everyone, irrespective of the merits of the person involved. My predecessor and I have made it quite plain that we think that judicial discretion must be exercised carefully in assessing the merits of a particular claim for legal aid. If we open the door completely to everyone there would be no end to it, and there would be no end to the cost. It would get out of hand from the financial point of view.

I do not think it desirable in our society that there should be wholesale subsidisation of hardened criminals in defending their cases. If a person is poor and he gets into serious trouble, he will probably be successful in getting legal aid. That is the intention of the Bill, and of the Legislature, and I am certain that the judiciary will exercise commonsense in their application of the scheme. I would regard it as undesirable that the scheme should be extended in any way to habitual criminals, and people whose activities are a social menance.

Another matter which brought comment from Deputy Barrett and Deputy Fitzpatrick is the question of the exercise of the ministerial statutory powers of the remission of penalties. This is a matter on which I personally have very strong views. I feel the person elected from this House to take charge of the administration of justice should be the authority to exercise this ultimate power in regard to the remission of penalties and the modification of punishments imposed by the courts which occasionally are unduly severe.

Indeed, in his comments this morning, Deputy O'Hara added emphasis to this point of view when he spoke of the importance of uniformity of penalties. I have had discussions with the District Justices as a body and with the President of the District Court on the question of exercising, as far as possible, a broad uniformity in the penalties imposed. I am very conscious of the necessity of this. Any time my discretion is exercised to mitigate a penalty, it will be exercised in the direction of ensuring that penalties are as uniform as possible, within the ambit of judicial discretion. This is a prerogative of the representative of this House in charge of the Department of Justice, and I think that as parliamentarians we should be very loath to let this authority slip away to any other body or authority that, it has been suggested, might be established.

Mr. Corish

I assume the Minister can be questioned any time he uses this power?

Mr. B. Lenihan

He can indeed. I should say that this power is used only after very close investigation which involves getting a report from the local Gardaí, a report from the justice or judge responsible for the case, and observations within any Department concerned of the full circumstances. If there is an injustice or anomaly of one kind or another in the extent of the penalty I may exercise my authority to remit or mitigate it.

Mr. Barrett

Would the Minister give full details of each case to the House, if they were requested?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Oh, no. This is a matter for the exercise of my discretion, the discretion of whoever holds my Office. I will always exercise it, as I see fit, having regard to the submissions made on petition and by the police and the trial justice or judge concerned. Candidly, I was surprised at Deputy Barrett and Deputy Fitzpatrick, two lawyers, putting this point of view. I would have thought they would be equally conscious of the fact that the Dáil, or Parliament, must be supreme in these matters, and that the Minister appointed by Parliament and given specific statutory authority should have over-riding authority.

Mr. Barrett

Would the Minister give details of any particular case to Parliament, if he were asked?

Mr. B. Lenihan

This is part of my discretion and I do not propose to go into the details of the rights or the wrongs of the exercise of my discretion. I refuse to be drawn any further in that respect. I only want to say that in the past few years the graph is a decreasing one in regard to the exercise of my prerogatives in this respect. The percentage of cases that have been dealt with favourably by me in 1965, and by myself and my predecessor in 1964 was lower than in previous years. I would say of course that this discretion is and should be exercised in a sparing manner. I shall ensure that so long as I am here I shall defend to the utmost any right of the Minister for Justice to exercise the powers of remission of penalties.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Minister will appreciate that my reference to the use of the prerogative was in the case of sentences for murder, now that the death penalty has been abolished.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I appreciate that Deputy Barrett went further than Deputy Fitzpatrick on this particular matter.

Mention was made of a very important matter of which I am very mindful as well. That is the question of compensation for injuries to people who help the gardaí in the exercise of their duty. This matter is dealt with at present on the basis of ex gratia grants and I agree with the view that this should be a matter of statutory right. Indeed, very shortly an Interdepartmental Report on compensation in regard to all malicious injuries, be they to property or person, will be published and will be made available to all Deputies. We are publishing this Report as a result of the investigations of an interdepartmental committee with a view to getting full public comment on this matter. One of the recommendations of the report is that compensation should be granted to people as a matter of statutory right, who go to the assistance of the gardaí. This is by way of replacement of the existing situation where we pay on an ex gratia basis.

Mention was made by Deputy Sweetman last night of reforms in the administration of justice. In my opening remarks I also placed emphasis on this aspect. In regard to the exercise of priorities in this respect, I would regard law reform as most desirable where it can be of practical benefit. While there is much merit in the consolidation of law and much merit in the introduction of progressive social measures, the most practical thing we can do in the matter of priorities now is to improve the administration of justice in regard to procedures and in regard to practice and administration.

In that respect, I am conscious of the fact that the jurisdiction of the district and circuit courts, which give practical service to citizens throughout the country, is at the moment inadequate particularly having regard to the fall in the value of money since the last limits were fixed. Even on a higher basis I would wish that the jurisdiction of the district and circuit courts should be enlarged substantially so as to make the services in most court actions available to citizens throughout the country in the most favourable possible centre. With that end in view I am considering a substantial enlargement of both the district court and the circuit court jurisdictions. This point has been mentioned and I regard it as a practical way in which litigation, as a service, can be made available to more of our people at much less expensive rates than obtain in the event of their being forced to go to the High Court in Dublin or in some other major centre.

There is also much that can be remedied in the standard procedures. I mentioned one in my opening speech on the Estimate. That is settling issues on a pre-trial basis. A number of issues can be settled in committee by a registrar before the court hearing so as to enable issues to be well defined before the action commences.

Deputy Sweetman last night referred to reform of the administration of the Land Registry. I am aware of the fact that the expedition with which matters are dealt with in the Land Registry is of great importance so far as the legal profession and the public are concerned. It is true that in the Land Registry most dealings are in regard to title and this will become more emphasised when the new regulations come into effect under the Registration of Title Act. It is true, as Deputy Sweetman emphasised, that, as it stands at present, the Land Registry is not fully geared to the potential work which will devolve on it in the next few years. For that reason, I have made plans, which are now well advanced, to improve the Land Registry by adding two extra storeys to the adjacent public record office building which will result in accommodation being provided for about twice the number of staff we have at the moment. I hope that accommodation will be in existence and functioning by the end of next year. At the moment we are holding competitions with a view to bringing in a substantial number of legal assistants and we hope to attract them with improved rates of salary for these positions in the Land Registry. I regard the Land Registry of course as the hub of the whole title system here. That will become more evident in the years ahead under the regulations to be made under the Act passed by the House.

Ground rents have been referred to by several speakers. I can assure the House that it is my hope that this particular matter will be before the House before it adjourns: we should have the First Reading of a Bill before the summer recess. The Bill is in course of preparation at the moment and will, I feel, finally get rid of this social evil which has been referred to on many occasions here in the past. It will involve the abolition of ground rents and follow, generally, the recommendations embodied in the Conroy Commission Report. It is a progressive measure which has been advocated on many occasions here in the past.

Mr. Cosgrave

In that connection, may I ask the Minister is it proposed to deal with new ground rents as well as those in the past?

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is an aspect which I have under discussion at the moment. I would hope that when the Bill is in final form the net effect of it will be to curtail and gradually eliminate altogether ground rents in the future as well as in the past.

Mention was made here of the antiquated nature of the Garda regulations. On this aspect, I have been very conscious of the fact that the regulations have not been changed since their institution. The finance codes have been fully revised and at the moment the disciplinary regulations are being revised, bringing matters in regard to discipline up to date and eliminating any Victorian relics that may have been in them. The newly revised finance regulations are almost ready for the printers and will be published in the near future. The revision of the disciplinary regulations is under way.

Another matter mentioned here concerned the question of slowness in the payments of moneys out of court from the accountant's office in the High Court. I think Deputy Ryan mentioned this yesterday. There was a difficulty some months ago which was caused by illness of members of the staff. That has been rectified and I understand payments are now being made in an expeditious manner.

I feel most of the points raised by various Deputies have been dealt with by me in so far as I have taken a summary of the matters mentioned. If any matter has not been adverted to, I should be glad if Deputies would raise it with me. I shall be perusing the debates and I shall know if I have covered everything.

Mr. Corish

Would the Minister tell us about censorship of films?

Mr. B. Lenihan

I am glad Deputy Corish mentioned that. I had to consider this particular matter shortly after getting into office. The reason for doing so was that the term of office of the outgoing Censorship Board terminated at the end of last year. I decided, having regard to many aspects mentioned to me in regard to film censorship, to reconstitute the board. A new board was selected under the chairmanship of a judge of the Circuit Court, with members representative of the clergy, a psychiatrist, a trade union executive and social workers who included a housewife so as to cover the whole field of our society. This particular board has been issuing limited certificates to a greater extent than formerly. I should prefer to approach the matter on a selective basis rather than a stricter form of grading.

I feel that the members of the Appeal Board are fairly unanimous in their approach. Where films, as Deputy Corish referred to last night, are not suitable for juvenile viewing, a certificate can be issued by the board limiting viewing in that particular case to over a particular age, say 16 or 18 years of age. I believe grading can be brought about in that way to a better extent than the automatic way in operation in Britain. A balance has been obtained, as Deputy Corish would wish, between a too liberal approach and a too rigid approach. There is a middle of the road balance which I feel can be exercised best by a board such as this one under the chairmanship of a Circuit Court judge. I am satisfied that this balance is being exercised by this board since its formation at the start of the year.

Generally, we can look now at a situation where the crime position, while not good, is excellent by standards, compared with the rest of the world. To quote one example in indictable crimes per 100,000 of the population, our figures are 632 compared with 2,100 in England and Wales. We can take further satisfaction from the fact that the detection rate here is 64 per cent as against 43 per cent in England and Wales. As long as we can keep on the right side of 50 per cent, we can claim that crime does not pay here. I sincerely hope that situation will continue and, with the increased efficiency of the Garda, will improve.

I am very conscious of the fact that the emphasis in regard to police work here should be on crime of the more violent type, that we must root out any crime which causes harm to person or property. If we have to fix priorities in regard to crime, this particular aspect should get priority. That is the reason for the increased strength in the Dublin Metropolitan District. We want to ensure that any organised crime does not arise here as it has arisen in other countries. So far we have avoided any real exercise of organised crime in the country.

Mr. O'Hara

May I inquire if there is any change in uniform? Perhaps the Minister might provide slacks for the Ban-Ghardaí. I am serious about that.

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is a very provocative suggestion. I shall have the other question of the cap examined. If the Deputy feels it is a cause of annoyance to the force, I shall look into it.

Mr. Corish

Surely you could not satisfy a dozen Ban-Ghardaí with the same cap or hat?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Deputy O'Hara was speaking about the male aspect.

Mr. Barrett

The Minister, in regard to a matter raised by the Leader of the Labour Party and myself, gave a different reply to both of us. When replying to the Leader of the Labour Party, he said he could be questioned in regard to exercising discretion but in reply to me, he said he could be questioned but would not answer.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I can be questioned in this House but I can exercise my discretion in regard to giving information on the reasons for this exercise.

Mr. Barrett

Would the Minister not agree he is appointed by the House to do something?

Mr. B. Lenihan

I will give the House full details of any remissions which I may make in regard to any particular offence but I will not give the House the reasons why I exercised prerogatives.

Mr. Barrett

The Minister is exercising prerogatives on behalf of the House. He is representing the House in doing this. Surely he should be amenable to the House?

Mr. B. Lenihan

It happens to be my responsibility to exercise that discretion. That applies to any Minister for Justice.

Mr. Corish

The Minister is no better than the Minister for Transport and Power.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I shall certainly give every detail of the particular matter but not the reasons that motivated me in arriving at a decision.

Mr. Corish

It will be like the appointment of the postman.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I hope the various matters which I have submitted to the Committee of Enquiry into Court Practices and Procedures during the past few months will be considered by them expeditiously and that I will receive a report from them fairly quickly. The committee is working very well under the chairmanship of a Supreme Court judge. There are many aspects of law reform, particularly in regard to practice and procedure, which need to be gone into fairly quickly in order to bring our courts and the system of justice here into line with the modern age, to ensure that the administration of justice is as efficient, expeditious and economical as possible and that it is available to all our people. This is a matter on which I hope to place the greatest emphasis in the coming years. I am sure it will have the unanimous approval of everybody so that the procedure of our courts can be improved.

I regard the matter of law reform as a matter of urgency and I hope to have a series of measures before the House dealing with this particular aspect in the coming years. If we are to go into the Common Market or the European Economic Community, we must have a system of law and administration that is fully geared for the sort of society we will be moving into in the 1970's. This must be our target. I am very conscious of it. I am certain by that particular date, when we move into broader association with the European Economic Community, we will have here a system of law that can be adjusted easily or will be on all fours in every aspect with the system of law obtaining in the Community at that particular time.

This must be our objective and our target. I am sure that the House will agree that we must concentrate on the need to improve the law so that it moves apace with the social needs of our changing modern society and that we shall, in the 1970's, not alone be geared to the needs of our own people but to the broader issues which we shall meet in the Common Market.

Mr. O'Hara

God speed the day.

Vote put and agreed to.