Cloisimid an óráid chéanna ó bhliain go bliain, gan d'athrú uirthi ach anseo is ansúd. Nílim sásta ar chor ar bith leis an méid atá déanta ag an Roinn seo ó 1956, an bhliain a chuireadh an Roinn are bun. Níl ann im thuairim anois ach codanna de Rannaí eile—an Roinn Oideachais, an Roinn Rialtais Áitiúil, maille le Bord Iascaigh Mhara agus mar sin de.
Níl an Ghaeltacht ag dul chun cinn. Níl méadú ar bith ar líon na ndaltaí a chuireann isteach ar an deontas £10 agus nílim sásta leis sin. Tá beagnach laghdú de 1,000 nó mar sin le cheithre bliain. Cén fáth? Ní dubhairt an Rúnaí Parlaiminte rud ar bith faoin cheist sin. B'fhéidir go bhfuiltear ag chur isteach ar an deontas agus nach bhfuiltear in ann é a ghlacadh. Sé mo thuairim gurab í an Roinn Airgeadais a chuir a ladhar fhuar sa scéim sin agus go bhfuil riaradh an deontais faoi stiúradh na Roinne Airgeadais agus nach bhfuil an focal deiridh ag Roinn na Gaeltachta ar chor ar bith.
Ina fhocal scoir dubhairt an Rúnaí Parlaiminte:
Is ar éigean is gá dom a thuilleadh a rá ag an bpointe seo faoi na seirbhísí atá i gceist sa Mheastachán ach, má bhíonn eolas breise ina dtaobh ag teastáil ó Theachtaí, déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall é a chur ar fáil dóibh.
Cúpla seachtain ó shoin, fuaireas mar do fuair gach Teachta eile agus daoine eile nach iad, is dócha, leabhrán eolais faoin dteideal Roinn na Gaeltachta. Tá gach rud sa leabhrán sin. Is maith an leabhair é agus tá go leor eolais ann fé mar adeirim. D'fhéachas ar leathanach 20, alt 4 —Báid Iascaigh. Bhí mé ag cruinniú coicís ó shoin i gCuan an Fhóid Dhuibh agus bhí trácht ar Bhord Iascaigh Mhara, ar bháid agus ar iarratasóirí agus ní rabhthas sásta ar chor ar bith. Féach ar na coinníollacha atá in alt 4, mír (2) den leabhrán:
Sula gceadófar deontas faoin Scéim seo, ní mór—
(a) an t-iarratasóir a bheith ag lorg bád iascaigh de shaghas áirithe ón mBord Iascaigh Mhara,
(b) an Bord a bheith sásta an bád a thabhairt dó ar théarmaí fruilcheannaigh an Bhoird, agus
(c) Roinn na Gaeltachta a bheith sásta gurb í an Ghaeilge gnáththeanga an iarratasóra agus nach acmhainn dó iomlán na héarlaise íosta a íoc.
Is deacair an rud bád a fháil faoi na coinníollacha sin. An bhfuair duine ar bith bád in áit ar bith faoin scéim sin go fóill? Is maith an scéim í ach is deacair bád a fháil fúithí. Tá an scéim ró-cheangailte le Bord Iascaigh Mhara agus muna mbíonn breis deontaisí le fáil, ní féidir iad uilig a shásamh.
Nílim sásta ar chor ar bith agus níl muintir Chuan an Fhóid Dhuibh sásta; níl muintir Dhaingean Uí Chúise sásta. Níl eolas agam faoi áit ar bith eile ach b'fhéidir go bhfaighidh an tAire an t-eolas. Chonnaic mé fógra ins na páipéirí inniu ag lorg stiúrthóirí nua do Ghaeltarra Éireann. B'shin í an chéad uair a thug mise faoi deara go raibh na fógraí seo i mBéarla. Is maith an rud é sin mar go dtí seo sílim nach raibh deis ag gach duine a bheadh oiriúnach cur isteach ar na postanna a fógraítear.
I do not propose to continue to deal with this Department solely through the medium of Irish because in that way it becomes a sort of secret and the rest of the country seems to regard efforts in that direction as efforts to hide something from them, and the people in English-speaking homes are entitled to see in our Official Reports an account of the Gaeltacht because the Gaeltacht of course is being subsidised, to some extent, under different headings from the moneys provided by the taxpayers as a whole. In any event, as I have mentioned before in this House—and in fact it was stated against me at the time I was being appointed Minister for the Gaeltacht that I said it—I am still an unrepentant bilingualist. I am all for bilingualism, trilingualism and as many languages as one can possibly have, being reasonable in one's approach towards the use of all of them and prepared to use them properly.
The Department of the Gaeltacht, as I said, was set up with great hopes for the future of the Gaeltacht. It was not exactly the kind of Department that I envisaged, although I belonged to the Government who set it up. I am on record as saying at that time that I believed that the future of the Gaeltacht and the prospect of the language becoming stable, becoming and staying a living language, or even spreading depended upon the economic viability of the people in those areas, and that if these areas were not viable and providing a livelihood for the people in them, then the question of the language became, to them, at any rate, a matter of cynicism and in the case of emigration, in many cases of which we have heard, a positive drawback. Some of the people themselves have complained about it.
It is interesting to note in relation to, say, Achill Island, which the Parliamentary Secretary visited some time ago, so he knows exactly the places I am talking about, that a portion of Achill Island running from a place he visited, Darby's Point, right down to Saula, as you cross the bridge, is in the Gaeltacht. When you proceed further down, to Bunacurry and Keel, into the tourist areas, these are not in the Gaeltacht. The Keel-Dooagh area is thriving and the other areas are not doing that well. The Parliamentary Secretary must have seen in Augleam and Saula, along that area, the vast number of houses that are closed and people gone way. That is due to the fact that there was not work there and I think that as a measure of goodwill towards the people in the Gaeltacht something should be provided, not something for nothing, but to give them an opportunity of earning. an opportunity of working. If they do not accept it, then the Parliamentary Secretary, the Government, the Opposition nor anybody else cannot be blamed, but do not keep them in a state of perpetual grouse that something is promised and never comes off.
The Parliamentary Secretary has visited that particular area with a view to seeing about safe berthing and landing facilities being provided in the area. I know that some time later some people visited it and a survey has been done, but these things take too long, become worn out and people get tired and sad and weary and become cynical of the whole thing.
On this question of the provision of boats, as I am dealing with berthing and landing facilities, 80 per cent of the deposit is payable by An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. Many people are dissatisfied with that position: it is too involved. You are giving Bord Iascaigh Mhara the right to refuse the applicant, assuming he is satisfactory in every way to the Department of the Gaeltacht. I am certain the Department would do its best to facilitate applicants of that kind, but they have the right to veto. They have the right to say: "He is not the kind of person to whom we should give a boat." I know of one such application made within the past three weeks. The man was turned down. He was an Irish speaker, a fisherman, a person entitled to get the boat and the Department of the Gaeltacht were satisfied but Bord Iascaigh Mhara said no.
Until this Department becomes completely autonomous, in so far as we can use that word about a Department, until it reaches the stage where it is not relying on any semi-State body or any other Department to do its work for it, it cannot be effective. It must have responsibility virtually for the whole of the activity in these areas over which it exercises vigilance—I was going to say jurisdiction but of course it does not. The Gaeltacht fishing is very important. It is important in all of the areas that are within the Gaeltacht within the limitations of the 1956 Act. I cannot see any reason why major fishing centres could not be started in certain of these areas and helped and promoted in every possible way. It is the only way to get a bit of activity going.
One of the methods is the provision of proper fishing vessels. I do not mean little slips and little bits of board that go out into the sea, and off which you could not commit suicide, as Lennox Robinson said. I do not mean the old Congested Districts jobs at all. Considerable effort is being made around the coast in providing these smaller ones but I think there should be major ones built because this is the only hope for the western seaboard. When I talk about the western seaboard, I include from the tip of Donegal right down to West Cork. It is true they have a very good one in Killybegs but that does not assist the Gaeltacht of Mayo or Galway, or indeed County Kerry or West Cork. These major ports cannot cost that much and anyhow we cannot be counting the cost because the Gaeltacht is disappearing, in my view, so rapidly that we cannot count the cost needed in the last effort to save it.
Gaeltarra Éireann do a good job. They are doing a better job now than they used to do. I am glad to see in today's papers that they are looking for managers in the separate departments, tweed, linen, knitwear and such things and that they are offering a pretty decent salary, plus a car. That is a good thing. It is important to give security to the person coming in— make sure that person is good and then give him the salary and perquisites that will enable him to stay. I think that is being done according to the advertisement in today's papers and I am happy about it. I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary that the new man looking after the affairs of Gaeltarra Éireann is excellent, is well recognised in industry as being a forward thinker and go-getter and I hope Gaeltarra Éireann will continue to prosper as each year passes under his guidance. I did not speak here last year. I cannot recall the date but it was a matter of regret to me that Mr. Fitzpatrick passed away suddenly from Gaeltarra Éireann. He had such long experience and was doing such a very good job and his work was appreciated all the more by reason of his temporary absence from it.
Gaeltarra Éireann have had their ups and downs, and are still having more downs than ups, perhaps. There must be some method of saving money at whatever end it is losing heavily and I hope the Board, as at present constituted, will look into the matter and see to it that these losses will not continue to be losses of the same order more or less year after year. If it is not possible to reduce these losses and if Gaeltarra Éireann is to be regarded as a social amenity, then that should be reflected in better wages for the people working in the various centres.
The products of this industry are very good. They are known all over the world and it is really a pity that some method cannot be found to spread this work further and further in the Gaeltacht areas and even outside them. I am not a believer in a system of demarcation lines as a result of which people of the same economic standing receive different treatment; one will benefit and another two fields away will not. I do not think that is right, or equitable, or just. It is not the kind of way in which we should try to advance the language. Neither do I think that the way in which various schemes are administered within the Gaeltacht itself is the way to advance the language.
I have adverted already to the £10 deontas. That, I think, is governed by the cold hand of the Department of Finance. So much is allotted and the inspectors go to the various Gaeltacht areas and say: "I have so much to give out and that is all I can do." I came across a case recently in which someone complained: the person who examined her child in a school in the West spoke Donegal Irish and the child could not follow him. Not alone was the child deprived of the £10 deontas but the entire family was likewise deprived. This has become a kind of income. It is looked on as a regular income during the school days of the children and the situation is very difficult when a child is deprived of the deontas; a child may be shy, or the youngest may be absent and immediately becomes suspect, of course. The children are deprived of the £10 deontas. There are other anomalies. A child gets the deontas every year during his or her school life. He or she enters for a scholarship to a secondary school, is examined by some inspector and gets less than the required 85 per cent. What kind of consistency is there in that? All it means is that expenditure is being kept down all the time.
These are the things that are irksome and make for a great deal of dissatisfaction in the Gaeltacht. These are the things I come across in my ordinary work as a Deputy. Indeed, there is another rule—I do not know whether it is in the Department of the Gaeltacht or the Department of Education—whereby, if a teacher, a garda, or even a doctor goes to a Gaeltacht area with young children who attend a Gaeltacht school and become proficient in Irish, those children will not be eligible to enter for Gaeltacht scholarships unless they have spent longer in the Gaeltacht than they did in whatever area they originally came from. There is no incentive in that kind of thing. Indeed, it shows a lack of incentive.
I have known this to happen. Because a child was a couple of months longer in the midlands than she was in the Gaeltacht, she was not eligible for a Gaeltacht scholarship. I do not like using the word "scholarship" because the Minister for Education has some sensitivity to it. But there is no incentive in the sort of situation I have outlined. It is no incentive to those families who return from England or America and settle down in the Gaeltacht, as they occasionally do, to become proficient in Irish because they cannot gain from that proficiency. That is the system I see being operated. I do not know what can be done about it but there should be some sort of uniformity in relation to interviews and examinations.
I did not hear a word in the Minister's speech about the provision of light and power in the remoter Gaeltacht areas. There is, of course, a scheme of bottled gas. That is all right for an island. I can understand it there because the cost of cable would be prohibitive. I have, however, come across villages in the Dingle Peninsula and in areas in my own constituency in the Gaeltacht in which there is no electric light or power, mainly because of the high cost of the ESB service charge. Here is an opportunity for the Department of the Gaeltacht to do something to assist these people. This kind of assistance is what would really impress the people in these areas who are deprived of amenities through no fault of their own. They have lived there all their lives, generation after generation, and they have kept Irish there. Surely it is not too much to ask that they should be helped in the way I suggest?
I do not know whether these people could afford this bottled gas; I think the grant is too small. It barely covers the cost of installation. Assistance in getting electric light and power ought to be the real aim. After all, bottled gas is only an emergency thing. It is only where some extreme difficulty arises that bottled gas comes into the picture. Once people were linked up with electric light and power, I do not think they would mind the charges. We have heard complaints recently about the increases in the charges, but I think it is a good service and reasonably cheap. It should be provided in these Gaeltacht areas and the Department would be helping the people very much if it exerted some influence on behalf of these people with the Electricity Supply Board or used some of its own resources for the purpose of alleviating their plight. They would appreciate that very much.
With regard to tourism, the Gaeltacht areas are all beautiful areas. I do not think there is any area that has not got its full quantum of scenic beauty. There is a lack of motels and guesthouses and I am glad to note the Department is showing an interest not alone in chalets and guesthouses but also in the erection of hotels proper. That is really what is needed —good sizable hotels in these areas, one or two carefully sited and, of course, built by local people, helped by the Department. I am glad to see that the Department give half as much to such a place in the Gaeltacht area as do Bord Fáilte and, if certain conditions are complied with, they give the full amount.
It is very hard on the Department; I can appreciate their difficulty in not knowing whether or not these conditions will be complied with afterwards. All they can do is accept an undertaking from people that they will do that and I think now, like the bodies, they should not exercise too heavy a veto at the beginning and should at least give it a try. If it will not do good one way, it will do good some other way and, while the promotion of the language is a desirable objective—the fostering of it—the economic side of things in these areas is also a worthwhile consideration and is probably one of the areas in which they can be assisted. I think it would be well worth while paying the full grant for a proposed hotel or guest-house even if it only kept a few girls at home from the native Irish speaking areas who would be working there and who would use Irish.
I understand that in certain other areas in relation to tourism, certain objections to camping sites have been made by people interested in the Irish language that they would destroy the language. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary knows of that. This instance I quote happened in County Kerry— we are all learning an awful lot about the areas in which we are working at the moment—but I was quite amazed to find that somebody, an interest from outside with certain native connections, could go into a Gaeltacht area and cause such a fuss as to prevent, or certainly delay, a camping site being built where upwards of 100 caravans would be sited, where they would be buying their vegetables, spending their money locally on food and helping to develop the place. It was objected to because it would destroy the Gaeltacht atmosphere of the place. If we do not allow such developments the atmosphere will go anyway. It has gone in places with which I am familiar. The houses have closed and people have gone away because there is nothing there to attract them. You must take this chance. That is something which will not be confined to those areas for ever. If this objective of making Irish the spoken language of the people, or at least the language they will all be able to speak either amongst themselves or to people who address them is successful, it will not be confined to those areas alone. Those areas are certainly a reservoir from which we may draw but they are reservoirs which are rapidly drying up owing to the economic position.
I came across another example. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will forgive me for talking so much about South Kerry but I came across another example down in the Maharees where a co-op was established, where onions are developed and this is absolutely tremendous. The people there, around the Castlegregory area, informed me that no influx of tourists, visitors or children would have kept these people in the Maharees but they are now doing extremely well there. I think the person who told me was a supporter of Mr. Begley; it was probably done when Deputy Dillon was Minister for Agriculture, but that is an example of the economy of a place being boosted, something which was local, something for which there was a local nucleus, a local buntús. They had their agency for the growing of onions in the Maharees; it was developed, a co-op was started and they are now, I understand, a thriving community.
There is an area in North Mayo, incidentally—in the Gaeltacht area too —which was a very famous place for the growing of early potatoes and, owing to the alleged incidence of black scab about 35 years ago, exports were stopped; these people used to have their early potatoes on the London market before the Jersey Islands when they were free so to do. It is probably something the director in the western region should look at and see if it could be developed again, something in which he should take an interest.
We had a Land Act recently that made provision for the partitioning and fencing of commonages. About a fortnight ago, I was at a meeting in Augleam in the heart of the Gaeltacht where they have their maps ready, their log splitting done and the Land Commission was going to charge them. I do not know what exactly it was; Deputy Calleary was there the same night. What struck me, as I am sure it struck him, and as was said by almost everybody—it costs so much to bring one family up from any of these areas, not necessarily a Gaeltacht area, to Meath or Kildare, and that money could easily be got from that. The Department of the Gaeltacht has a duty to the people in that area to see to it that the Land Commission fences it properly and to see to it, in that way, that production will be increased because, when people get this addition—in some cases, ten or 12 acres of land—it will increase the number of cows and will substantially add to the amount of milk being sent to the local separating station in the area which was set up a few years ago. That is another thing the Department of the Gaeltacht should interest itself in. It should see to it that the Land Commission do it and that these people are not punished by a very heavy head rent over a period of 35 years for the fencing of these commonages. It is a big problem and will occur in all that peninsula under the vigilance of the Department of the Gaeltacht. The director was there that night; he has all the details and I am sure he will give a favourable account of what the people want.
All the year round holidays in the Gaeltacht are an excellent idea. Probably the Department could concentrate a bit more on the cookery end in this regard in the local vocational schools, and concentrate, too, on the preparation of food from the raw materials available. Nobody wants any—for want of a better description, I will have to call it "shop stuff"—cakes and things bought in shops. What people want is what the people themselves can have: their own food, their brown bread, milk, potatoes, their fish —if they can get it locally—and even the local meat which is famed, of course, in most of those areas. You have the mutton of Kinbay, the lamb of Aran, and all those things could be well developed and looked after. The danger in regard to the Department of the Gaeltacht is that it is becoming a little bit of everything, but not fully authoritative. I understand the difficulties in this regard, but someone should make a break from that over these areas, and there should be power to encroach upon other areas of a kindred nature.
They should exercise the whole power of the Department to carry out all the schemes for which they are responsible. There is too much overlapping. The minor employment and bog development schemes by the Board of Works should not have been dropped. A vigilant Department of the Gaeltacht should have been able to see that that did not happen, or that a substitute was provided that would not cost the people so much. These are the people for whom the Department are responsible. These are the beautiful tourist areas, but there are many bad roads. I know the Department spend money on the roads. I know they give grants here and there for certain roads, but they should concentrate on the smaller roads and the cul-de-sac roads in the Gaeltacht villages.
Recently I was in Porturlin in North Mayo, which is Fíor-Ghaeltacht, and the roads were dreadful. The same is true of many other places. So far as I can see, the trouble is that the Department has not got any real power. I know that is the way it was set up, but with the passage of time and with the gaining of experience, it is possible that there could be some amendment along the lines I suggest. For example, Gaeltarra Éireann is a pretty autonomous body at the moment, but it is probable that after a while it will have far more autonomy.
There is another matter to which I want to refer, and again I can see the Department's difficulty in this regard. For one reason or another, a schoolgoing child fails to satisfy the inspector and does not get the deontas of £10. The father and mother are native Irish speakers but the child, through no fault of the parents, is not quite proficient. The child is mixing with other children. That can happen. The father applies for a Gaeltacht housing grant, and because the child is not getting the £10 deontas, the father will not get the grant. That is the situation as I know it to be.
I can understand the link, but it is a very severe punishment on the parents, just because the child fails to reach the standard of proficiency required. It is fair enough if the child does not get the deontas, and if it is a just examination, but why punish the father if it is not his fault? I fail to see how it can be his fault in an average household where the father and mother speak Irish, but if for some reason which cannot be attributed to them logically, the child does not qualify, it is a very big fine if the father does not get the housing grant. That is a very big punishment because it can amount to £900 between the grant and the loan. They may be living in bad housing conditions. It may also be that if he applied for it the previous year he would get it. That is where it is illogical and unreal.
I understand that it is a tie-up and I appreciate the reason for it, but I think the tie-up should be used only to facilitate the housing people. They should be able to say: "Here is a case where the child gets the deontas", and give the grant straight away. If the applicant has a schoolgoing child who does not get the deontas—and some schools do not go in for this as much as others—the inspector turns it down. I do not think that is just, or right, or fair, and I should like the Department to have another look at it. If the father and mother are proficient, and if a lack of proficiency on the part of the children cannot be attributed to them, they should get the housing grant. We must house these people. We cannot punish them for technicalities of that kind. I know this to be quite common in my own constituency. I have shoals of letters about it. Nothing can be done under the present regulations, but the regulations should be relaxed or not operated as rigidly as they seem to be.
All in all, Deputies and the public should be grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for going to the trouble of getting out this booklet. It is an extension, I suppose, of the idea of getting out a booklet about social welfare showing the people what their rights are and what advantages are to be gained by knowing about the various schemes and plans for their betterment. I wonder if a copy of this booklet has been sent to the principal teachers in the Gaeltacht schools, and to the priests in the areas, and the local councillors. Those are the people who should be equipped with this kind of knowledge. I made a similar suggestion in relation to the booklet on social welfare, and it is even more important that this booklet should get into as many hands as possible in these areas.
I do not know whether it is since the last debate on this Estimate that the new secretary has come to the Department. I should like to welcome him to it. I should also like to express my regret on the retirement of Mr. Glynn, the assistant secretary of the Department, who brought to it a great fund of knowledge from his Land Commission experience, and a great knowledge not only of Irish but of the people in the Gaeltacht from whom he came himself.
In conclusion, I wish this Department better and better luck. I hope it will continue to prosper and get more money from the Government, and get down to some of the things I have suggested and which I hope will be accepted: major fishing places, more tourism, less rigidity with regard to housing grants, particularly where the parents are proficient, and above all, have their stiúrthóirí examine local conditions to decide how best they can make a particular area more viable economically by using local raw material and by directing the people's energies more in that direction.
As I have said, this is not a Department which creates any great revolutionary changes from year to year. There may be a change of a few pounds but the same speeches are heard. This is necessarily so. It is a small Department, not an easy one to work, one in respect of which none of us should be satisfied with the progress made during ten years. Greater allocations should be made to this Department. One must think of how difficult it is to get a £10 deontas for a Gaeltacht child, how difficult it is to get a few pounds grant for somebody in the Gaeltacht. These are our people. In these terms we must think of the ease with which we can give out hundreds of thousands of pounds to projects, the success of which may not be assured. We must decide that the economic viability of our own people in the Gaeltacht communities is something we should never neglect.
It is for that reason that I urge the Parliamentary Secretary and the Department to exercise their influence with other Departments, particularly when they are about to introduce legislation or make regulations on matters affecting the Gaeltacht areas. The greatest vigilance must be observed by the Department and the Parliamentary Secretary in this respect. If he does so, his efforts will meet with good results.