Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Dec 1966

Vol. 226 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 28—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

Go ndeonófar suim nach mó ná £1,274,220 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1967, le haghaidh Tuarastail agus Costais Oifig an Aire Oideachais (lena n-áirítear Forais Eolaíochta agus Ealaíon), le haghaidh Seirbhísí Ilghnéitheacha áirithe Oideachais agus Cultúir, agus Ildeontais-i-gCabhair.

—(Minister for Education).

Mr. Larkin

When I reported progress last week, I was referring to a matter which is of some serious importance to the parents of children in urban areas, particularly in areas that have been expanding rapidly. I referred to the fact that over the years there appears to have been a lack of the necessary co-operation between the Minister for Education and those concerned with the provision of school buildings. We have repeatedly, in the perimeter areas of the city of Dublin, a situation where large residential estates have been completed and the families that moved into them had two, three or four children of school-attending age. They found when they moved in that there was no school in the immediate neighbourhood to which the children could be transferred. The problem may be a problem of planning as far as the Minister is concerned. It appears to me from the reply given to a Question which I had on the Order Paper that the problem is not only a problem of planning but a problem of education as far as the Minister and his Department are concerned.

The primary step one must take before one does anything is to convince oneself that what is required is necessary, is reasonable and should be possible. The Minister stated, in reply to my question on Tuesday, 29th November at column 1708 of the Official Report:

It will be appreciated, therefore, that while the Department begins to carry out its survey of the school accommodation requirements immediately firm proposals of house building are available it is understandable that there must be a time lag between the actual building of the houses and the schools since some delays must inevitably arise in the school managers' procuring sites and taking out title to them and for other reasons.

Thousands of Dublin families have, over the years, had the experience that because the Department were prepared to accept the situation, children have to travel two, three, four, five or six miles to school because there is no school in their immediate neighbourhood. The primary reason for that defect in our educational system is the failure of the Department to accept the principle that the education of our children is a little more important than making a mistake and building a school with two or three additional classrooms which may remain empty for a while.

Successive Ministers have blandly accepted a situation in which parents have been faced with the problem and the difficulty of finding some temporary school for their children, with all that that involves—taking them to the bus, getting them on the buses, sacrificing time to meet them at lunch hour, and sacrificing more time to meet them in the evening. That situation arises despite the fact that in nearly every case the Department would have had quite accurate forecasting of the eventual need in the area. The Department have indulged in the extraordinary exercise of counting the heads of the children in the area before taking steps to ensure adequate classroom accommodation is made available. When I say "adequate", I should qualify it with the word "barely". The result has been a situation in which children have not attended school for prolonged periods and that at a time when a break in their education can have a very serious effect on that education. Even at this very moment the Minister talks about the difficulty in acquiring sites and the time lag between the actual building of the houses and the construction of the school. Might I refer the Minister to one project, which was the darling of one of his colleagues?

Mr. O'Malley

Ballymun.

Mr. Larkin

Ballymun. It is estimated there will be 6,300 children to be catered for in that area.

Mr. O'Malley

In that area there is accommodation under construction and in process of planning for 6,360 children.

Mr. Larkin

When will the schools be up?

Mr. O'Malley

I am giving the Deputy the answer—under construction or at the planning stage for 6,360 children.

Mr. Larkin

What about the delay in other areas? What about the overcrowded schools in North-East Dublin? It is not the worst and I should like to give credit now to some very progressive school managers in that area. Raheny was dealt with fairly quickly, but there are other areas in which there is delay.

Mr. O'Malley

The State does not own secondary schools. They are private schools to all intents and purposes.

Mr. Larkin

The Minister is the man to whom we must look in this House.

Mr. O'Malley

I accept that.

Mr. Larkin

The Minister is responsible because, under the law, children are subject to compulsory education.

Mr. O'Malley

That is in relation to national schools.

Mr. Larkin

That is the law and the Minister has to enforce the law. The Minister must, therefore, accept responsibility for undue and unnecessary delay in planning, or anything else, in respect of providing schools for our children.

Like many in this House, and outside it, I confess I am really no expert on education. There are a number of experts and there are a number of people who think they are experts. I do not number myself in either category. My concern is that we have a continuing high proportion of children who receive no education beyond 14 years of age. I welcome the Minister's intention to raise the school-leaving age to 15 and I should like to know when this will come into operation.

Mr. O'Malley

It is expected it will be brought into force in 1970.

Mr. Larkin

Will it be January 1970? Will it be June 1970? Will it be December 1970?

Mr. O'Malley

I should imagine it will be the beginning of the school year, September 1970.

Mr. Larkin

I do not want to pin the Minister down. I have no doubt the date of operation will be dependent upon the provision of adequate school buildings, the training of additional teachers, and so on. I do not know if the Minister is satisfied that there will be sufficient teachers to deal with the additional number of children retained in school.

There is another problem which arises from the raising of the school leaving age. It may not be a problem with which the Minister is concerned but it is a problem with which the Government ought to be concerned. I would say 100 per cent of the children who leave school at 14 do so because of economic circumstances; their families need their earnings as messenger boys, as factory workers, and so on. These families will be faced with certain economic difficulties if the school leaving age is raised. We are all agreed that it is most desirable that it should be raised but the problem to which I refer is one to which the Government should direct their attention with a view to seeing what relief could be afforded to these families. We all agree that no child should be deprived of schooling and it is being made law now that a child will have to go to school or be subject to certain penalties. This may involve a certain amount of hardship on a number of families.

Another matter on which I should like to comment briefly is post-primary education and the level at which grants will not apply. It has not been made quite clear by the particular figures in the Minister's introductory speech why these figures were chosen at the particular level; possibly to cover a large number of fee-paying schools, some of which have indicated they will be considering increasing their fees. That would mean, in those cases, that as far as the pupils are concerned, the education would not be free. There may possibly be a development of a certain amount of status consciousness between those schools providing post-primary education and those which will qualify for the grant. This would be regrettable, because our aim should be to make sure that full education is available, just as the cost of school books will be provided, as referred to in the Minister's introductory speech.

We all agree that the provision of books has been a particular problem. Part of the problem arises from the very frequent change of the books in use in the various schools. The experience has been—even where books were continously in use—that pupils found it very difficult to obtain them. There are cases—I am referring now to private schools—where, sometimes, books used as text books were not in print and were not readily available to the pupils attending those particular institutions. With regard to the general schools, there were a number of cases where, say, two or three boys or two or three girls in the same family, with fairly close age relationship, found they could not operate on the normal basis, that when the older child moved on to a higher class, the next child could take over the books, at little cost to the parents. They discovered, when the next child moved into the class from which the older boy or girl was moving on, there was a whole series of new books.

This has occurred too frequently. What the particular purpose is, I do not know. It has been particularly evident with books in Irish—possibly to encourage the authors but, after all, the primary concern must be to make it possible for the pupils to familiarise themselves with the text books and avoid unnecessary expense. If it is found that a text book is quite suitable for a particular age group, why is it necessary—when other children of the same family enter that age group—to have entirely new text books?

I notice, in relation to the provision of books for certain pupils in post-primary schools, that the Minister thinks the best person to decide who should get the books free is the headmaster. How will a headmaster satisfy himself in this matter?

Mr. O'Malley

I am not tied to the headmaster necessarily.

Mr. Larkin

The Minister said that is his view. I am just asking. I am entitled to ask the Minister why he takes this view.

Mr. O'Malley

Put up a counter suggestion. What would the Deputy do if he were in my position? I have proposed the headmaster——

Mr. Larkin

I am asking the Minister if he can give me a reason for this.

Mr. O'Malley

If the Deputy will give me a better appointment, I will take it.

Mr. Larkin

It appears to me that the Minister for Education wants everybody to tell him what to do.

Mr. O'Malley

If I were waiting for the Labour Party, I would be waiting a hell of a long time.

Mr. Larkin

With all due respect, the Labour Party have not the resources the Minister has—at least they did set down the principles which should apply but the Minister has taken a very long time to put them into operation.

Mr. O'Malley

You were in Government for seven years.

Mr. Larkin

Can the Minister ever forget that? Any time anybody queries a Fianna Fáil Minister on something he replies: "Somebody else was in Government for a certain number of years." What have Fianna Fáil been doing for 28 years?

Mr. O'Malley

Why are we not a bit progressive?

An Ceann Comhairle

This cannot go on.

Mr. Larkin

With all due respect, Sir, the Minister introduced this matter and, if the Minister introduces something, he will get it back.

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy asked me a question.

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest that we go on with the Vote for the Department of Education.

Mr. Larkin

The Minister completely overlooks the fact that he and his colleagues were in Government for a total of 28 years.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will proceed with the discussion on the Vote for the Department of Education.

Mr. Larkin

At the end of 28 years he comes to this House and says that in September 1967, he will have certain things done. I wonder will he have them done?

Mr. Carter

That is not too bad.

Mr. Larkin

Not too bad? I do not think it is anything to be proud of.

Mr. Carter

There are quite a number of items.

Mr. Larkin

Having regard to the fact that thousands upon thousands of children left school within that period of 28 years at the age of 14 years with no further educational opportunities, and having regard to the fact that thousands upon thousands of children had to try to obtain this miserable type of education in most unsuitable schools, and having regard to the fact that in 1966 the Minister for Health says they want to get houses built before they provide schools for the children—the Deputy says that is not too bad.

Mr. Carter

It is not too bad.

Mr. Larkin

Perhaps the Minister is starting to move away from the decision taken by a one-time Taoiseach who was a great believer in education that there should be two types of education—education for those who could afford it and education for the tillers of the soil and workers in factories. Perhaps the Minister is starting to move away from that position, but he is moving very slowly indeed.

Mr. Carter

That is not true, of course. That statement is not true.

Mr. Larkin

That statement is correct.

Mr. Carter

It is not.

Mr. Larkin

The facts are there.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Larkin

We recognise that in his introductory statement the Minister was quoting from the NIEC Report when he said that in the absence of a modern approach to education, we will have a situation in the years to come in which a continuing proportion of our people will receive very little education, or only a basic education, and will not be found to be capable of being trained for advancement in technical or professional knowledge to any degree.

I do not think the Minister involved himself in the controversy that has become the plaything of politics in recent months so I will get back to a point he made. I do not expect him to answer me now. The Minister is at liberty, in dealing with any contribution made by a Deputy, to refute a statement made or to answer a question, if he so desires. The Minister has indicated that the headmaster of a school will establish some form of means test to decide when school books should be supplied free. Surely the obvious thing would be to supply all books in a particular grade, and there should be no test under which the headmaster will say that one pupil will be supplied with school books and another pupil will get 50 per cent or 20 per cent supplied.

Mr. O'Malley

School books are costing £100,000 and if we gave them to everyone it would cost £400,000.

Mr. Larkin

Does the Minister agree that would be a very useful way of spending money?

Mr. O'Malley

It would be a very good thing. If the Deputy will permit me, does he understand that when he speaks of 25 per cent of the school books being given at the discretion of the headmaster, that in actual fact there are schools in Ireland in very poor areas where 100 per cent of the books will be free, and there are other areas where people are comparatively well off in which no school books will be given out free because they will not be required? Twenty-five per cent is the estimated national average.

Mr. Larkin

There will be a means test on the question of issuing school books.

Mr. O'Malley

There is a means test for non-contributory old age pensions.

Mr. Larkin

The decision on this means test will be taken by the headmaster.

An Ceann Comhairle

This conversational style of debate will not get us anywhere. I suggest that Deputy Larkin should make his speech without interruption.

Mr. Larkin

I am grateful for the protection of the Chair. I think the Minister should remove from his mind any suggestion that the headmaster should be expected to select which pupils should be supplied with free school books. I should like the Minister to indicate when he is replying if he is satisfied with the provision of schools, and if he is satisfied with the size of the classes in many primary schools. If he is not satisfied, will he indicate what major steps he proposes to take in that regard? There is still too much overcrowding. If the Minister, like some of his colleagues, had taken a trip to the constituency in Waterford, he would have found that there is very serious overcrowding in the schools in the town of Tramore. Children have to go to schools a considerable distance away because of overcrowding in the local schools. Some of the children are trying to get their education in schools which are in an unsatisfactory, if not a dangerous, condition.

I want to deal now with the establishment of regional and vocational colleges. There are some areas in the country where industries now exist and where there is a need for the training and retraining of the workers in those industries. I should like an assurance that in any case where such circumstances exist, the Minister will ensure that the educational authorities will co-operate to the fullest extent—if necessary, by the establishment of special schools, or the acquisition of ground—in providing an opportunity for the workers to be trained in new techniques, and thereby prevent them becoming redundant through lack of adequate training.

Now I come to the question of free transport for children.

Mr. O'Malley

No means test there.

Mr. James Tully

No transport there.

Mr. O'Malley

Any little word of praise at all? One hundred per cent of the cost, no means test?

Mr. Larkin

The Minister is indicating that he, the Government, the community, are prepared to pay one hundred per cent of the transport cost of children who have to travel three miles and more. I should like to point out to the Minister that the cost of transport to children who have to travel two miles, perhaps four times per day, is also very heavy. Of course that would not arise if the Minister were doing his job and provided schools within two miles of their homes.

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy would want a school very 100 yards if I had provided one every 150 yards.

Mr. Larkin

May I ask the Minister, since he is so——

Mr. O'Malley

Flippant.

Mr. Larkin

——generous, why he did not whisper in the ear of his colleague, the Minister for Social Welfare, a short time ago about free transport for old age pensioners? While I am at it, might I ask him why he voted against the Labour Party motion to provide free transport for pensioners?

Mr. O'Malley

Of course this is completely out of order. This is all by-election stuff and I might as well get in my bit. The Deputy provided a halfcrown for the pensioners in three years.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Larkin, on the Vote for Education.

Mr. Larkin

I appeal to you, Sir, to use your influence with the Minister for Education.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not understand why another Vote should be brought into this. This debate deals with education only.

Mr. Larkin

Ministers are expected to show good example.

An Ceann Comhairle

I hope Deputy Larkin will start.

Mr. Larkin

I will endeavour to do so. Not only should the Minister show good example to Deputies but he should show such example to his colleagues in the Government. I was about to refer to the fact that not so long ago the Minister for Education voted against a motion——

An Ceann Comhairle

Let that be discussed where it is relevant.

Mr. Larkin

It has been discussed. The Minister might examine it in conjunction with the question of free transport. He should consider the position of children in built-up areas who have to travel two miles to school. Why should he draw an arbitrary line, giving free transport to children who have to travel three miles and refusing to give it to children who have to travel two and threequarter miles? Why do you not provide free transport for these children, many of whom have to travel four times per day——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should use the third person.

Mr. Larkin

My apologies. Why does the Minister not tell us how this magical three miles came about? Is it a limit of the Minister's imagination? I ask the Minister very seriously to provide free transport for children in urban areas who have to travel two miles. Not only have the children to travel but in many cases one of the parents or somebody else must go to collect the children. This is necessary because of the Minister's failure to provide schools close to where they live.

Mr. O'Malley

Now the Deputy is getting ridiculous. Close to everyone, a school around the corner for everyone in Ireland? How ridiculous can one get?

Mr. Larkin

I am not being ridiculous. The Minister is trying to explain away his difficulty on the basis that he could not build schools until all the houses were built.

Mr. O'Malley

That is a different thing. There is something in what the Deputy was saying earlier but in this context it is ridiculous.

Mr. Larkin

I am glad I am pricking the Minister's conscience. I said at the outset that my remarks would be of a rambling nature but they must have done some good. I am grateful to the Minister for indicating that he might think about the matter. Perhaps he will listen——

Mr. O'Malley

I listen to and consider everything said in this House, no matter from what side. All my interest is in the education of our children. No matter where the proposition comes from, I will consider it and if it is sound, I will use it.

Mr. Larkin

I conclude my few remarks by expressing the hope that the Minister will deal with three matters when he is replying: the question of a no means test for the issue of school books, no charge for the transport of schoolchildren and an assurance that more schools will be built more rapidly in built-up areas.

Mr. Carter

Whether it is the by-elections or the atmosphere created by them, certain Deputies have been inclined to take this debate out of its setting and sort of pitch it into the line of battle. The Deputy who has spoken has been a Member of this House for a long time and he made a statement to the effect that during 28 years a certain personality neglected education. That is not so, of course. We would be foolish to sit on those benches and listen to a speech of that sort without saying that that statement is not a factual one. Time and again the Government to which the Deputy referred received a mandate from the people for their educational programme and time and again advances have been made on this side as well as on many sides of our programme as a whole.

Education always figures fairly largely in our considerations. I suppose the fact that it has come into more or less greater prominence at this stage than ever in the past is due to the way the world in general is progressing and to the need there is in this country to look ahead in order to try to equip our young people better to face the world, not merely here at home, but abroad. I suppose there is also the fact that we have to look to the Common Market and the wider atmosphere in Europe and the fact that the industrial side, the agricultural side and every side of our programme demands more education. Every man or woman entering either into industry or entering the teaching profession needs to be better equipped for the position he or she holds.

It cannot be said that either the present Taoiseach or indeed Taoisigh in the past neglected this side of the programme. I need only quote briefly from the speech the Taoiseach made on the motion nominating the members of his Government. I quote from column 1183 of the Official Debates of Wednesday, 16th November:

The Government's aims were set out very comprehensively a few months ago and I do not think I need delay the House this evening by repeating them. If they should need to be amended in any respect because of new developments, this will be made known from time to time, according as the need arises. I need only say now that my constant concern will be to preserve and strengthen this country's independence and individuality, recognising, on the one hand, that there will be or can be little progress in the political, social and cultural fields unless we are making satisfactory economic progress as well, and on the other, that material progress alone would be barren indeed if it were not accompanied by the moral and intellectual development of all the individuals comprising our community. In view of its importance in both these respects, I accept it as my duty that despite other claims on our resources, education will be adequately supported. Secondary education has been provided, at a low cost to parents, largely as a result of the devotion and sacrifices of religious orders. There can be no such thing as free education; the community must be prepared to pay one way or the other for whatever improvements are required, both in regard to greater facilities for post-primary education and readier access to further education for those who can benefit from it. The important thing is to see that inability to pay whatever cost is involved in such education will not debar any child who can benefit from it from receiving it. That will be one of the immediate objectives of this Government.

That, as I said, is a statement from the head of the Government made here in this House in good faith. I do not believe the Deputy who has just spoken can doubt his sincerity or the sincerity of the Government in this matter.

We are all well aware of the pressing needs in the primary stage of education. I merely take a few points which relate mainly to the primary and vocational ends because I suppose, coming from a rural area, those are the subjects I am most familiar with. It is stressed on all sides that in this respect we should always strive to reduce the size of the classes. As a further aid, and indeed a very important one, we should strive towards providing better training and more teachers, better schools, the allocation of higher grants for heating and cleaning schools, the raising of the school leaving age and, in general, extending the opportunities for more education to what could be deemed to be the whole schoolgoing population.

It should be admitted in this House —I think the Minister fully recognises this fact—that all personnel engaged in the teaching service should be encouraged to take part in the planning of education so that there will be, shall we say, a general level of agreement on ways and means as to what can best be done to enhance the ability of the pupils to assimilate the knowledge being imparted in the schools and, not merely this, but to inculcate in them a desire to apply this knowledge in after life. I would ask the House to bear in mind that unless the pupil has this desire, all effort on him will be wasted and unless the pupil recognises that the knowledge acquired at school is to be used in after life, then time is wasted.

Mr. James Tully

The Deputy is taking a chance.

Mr. Carter

Advances have been made under many headings, despite what Deputy Larkin has said.

Mr. Larkin

I should hope so.

Mr. Carter

In this regard, I suppose we all have read that the publication of the report on university education is due in February.

Mr. Larkin

That is a sore point.

Mr. James Tully

Do not be rubbing it in.

Mr. Carter

There are different opinions on this matter. I have my own opinion, but all one can say is that it is to be hoped that the report will issue and that we shall be able to act upon it.

The fact is, as the Minister pointed out, that travelling grants are being made available for pupils living over 15 miles from post-primary schools. That is an advance. The new and improved methods of appointing vocational teachers will certainly be an advance. We are all aware of the drawbacks and difficulties which attended the appointment of vocational teachers heretofore. The building of regional technical schools and the new methods of teaching Irish in primary and post-primary schools will certainly lead to a great surge forward on the educational side. The methods designed to spread adult education, a very important part of the scheme, by means of television and other modern means of communication, and the comprehensive schools, are further advances. The fact that the fee will be wiped out for pupils attending such schools is encouraging and will be an aid both to the pupils and to the parents. All those steps show that we are making progress on the educational side.

To come from the general to the particular, I mentioned earlier the modern methods of imparting knowledge. One great method is the use of audio-visual aids in primary schools. For some time past, the interest taken in these aids in primary schools has been noticeable. One also noted the criticism of the general position which issued last year from the INTO Congress in Killarney. As I understand the position in regard to visual aids—and I have been looking into the matter as I am interested in it—a special grant is provided for new or improved schools towards the cost of school requisites which may include certain audio-visual aids such as a tape-recorder, record player, or film strip projector. The scheme is administered through the free grant scheme for school requisites. The general principle behind the grant is good. The provision of such a grant is not only desirable but essential.

However, on examination, it can be seen that the scheme has several shortcomings. The scheme was originally intended to provide a basic free stock for new schools of maps, blackboards and so on. There is no doubt that those appointments are a first claim for any new school. Surely, however, the scheme is handicapped by the amount of the grant made available? This applies particularly to rural schools where the average enrolment exceeds 125, which would be a reasonably-sized school. The Minister is aware of the scale of the grants, which is roughly as follows: where the average enrolment is 50 or under, the grant is £16; where the enrolment is from 51 to 75, it is £18; where the enrolment is from 76 to 100, it is £20; and where it is in excess of 100 to 125, it is £22. When one takes current costs into account, it will be agreed that the scale falls far short of providing this desirable equipment.

Over and above this, if a school has to purchase maps and other essential items, there is no money left to purchase audio-visual aids. In this regard, even a small film strip projector will, on average, cost from £22 to £30. A screen could cost anything from £5 to £20 while the fitting of blinds to a classroom could cost £20 to £30. With the free stock grant, a special grant up to £35 is available for the purchase of cookery utensils and equipment in girls' schools. One could make the point, therefore, that the grant for all the visual aids should be treated separately as in the case of the grant for cookery equipment and that the whole basis of this grant should be changed so that the Minister would be able to make available special grants to those schools towards the purchase of all the visual aids. Those grants could be of the order of 75 per cent, say, of the cost up to a maximum of £40 and should be made to the managers in my opinion of three-teacher schools and upwards.

The idea of confining the grants to the schools with three teachers and upwards is that it will be possible to utilise such equipment to the greatest extent in such schools where, for example, there is no question of the amalgamation or retention of this type of school. When the question of smaller schools has been settled, those units could be made available to them also.

If one puts forward a proposition in this House or elsewhere, one should always try to count the cost. If we examine the position, we see that there is a total of roughly 1,600 schools with three teachers and upwards. For this information I refer the House to paragraph 9.17, page 247, of the report, Investment in Education. If we assume that all those schools apply for the grant—that would be completely out of the question, of course—the total amount would not exceed, I think, £63,000 or £64,000. If we take it by easier stages we could split it up so that the scheme of grants would be spread over, say, five years, if we take an average of five counties to be included each year, or on the same basis as the present grant scheme for libraries in national schools is being implemented. It is understood that this library scheme will be completed in the near future, next year or the year after perhaps, and it could be, therefore, suggested, and I think I am at liberty to suggest, that a scheme of grants for all the visual aids should follow on immediately the library scheme is completed. Spread over a five-year period, it would meet what many educationists believe is a long-felt want in our system of primary education.

To go back to the report, Investment in Education, on page 250 we see that only about five per cent of our national schools have film strip projectors. We must, therefore, infer that the present position is poor. If we are to keep ourselves reasonably in line with other desirable advances in other sectors of our education system, I would ask the Minister progressively to consider the provision of those aids on such a system as is advocated or, indeed, any other better system the Minister might be able to formulate. Managers of rural schools would welcome a move like this which would be calculated to bring us farther along the road to a better primary education level.

Mr. Dillon

I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach could really let himself go now.

Mr. James Tully

It is an opportunity he may never get again.

Mr. Dillon

Let him speak out now as an independent, free Deputy.

Mr. Carty

And forever more be silent.

Mr. Dillon

The Parliamentary Secretary now has a general licence to say what he wants to say.

Minister for Education (Mr. O'Malley)

As I said when I rudely interrupted Deputy Larkin, I have listened to and was studying all the views put forward by the Members on all sides of the House. I will take note of any constructive points that have been made and if they can help in any way in improving further our educational system, I shall certainly incorporate them in any proposals I may have at a further date. While I am Minister for Education, the major consideration will be what is good for our children, and everything else will be secondary to that.

On the debate itself, there has been some confusion in the public mind. My speech was a speech on my Estimate. It so happened, for reasons best known to themselves, that just prior to my introductory statement on the Estimate, the Fine Gael Party chose to introduce their proposals for education. I am very glad they did because, as I said some time ago, it was an extraordinary thing that in this country we could have a political Party, the chief Opposition Party, going before the public in successive elections without any policy whatsoever on education. They produced their Just Society document and in that they had no policy set out with regard to educational matters. They then panicked. They saw what importance the public at large attributed to the education of their children. They saw it was of paramount political importance as well as of social importance, and hence we had this hurried document.

As I say, there was confusion in the mind of a great deal of the public and also among some commentators, political commentators and those who write on educational matters. They have not differentiated between my Estimate speech and the Fine Gael policy on education. Mine, of course, was not a policy statement, and I did not claim that it was. It was an acceptance that there were certain basic defects, due in the main to an inequality of opportunity for our children, and this was one of the first tasks with which I was confronted, the fact that there were, indeed still are and will be until 1st September next, many thousands of children who are debarred from entering post-primary education, due to the inability of their parents to pay.

Getting back to the comparisons between my Estimate speech and the Fine Gael policy document, I should like to remind Deputies that it was a predecessor of mine, Deputy Dr. Hillery, who initated in October, 1962 the survey which has become the bible so to speak of all educationists, and particularly of the Fine Gael Party. It was he who initiated Investment in Education. This was carried out by Irishmen, in the main, and a contribution, for which we were very grateful, was received from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development as the project was under the Educational Investment and Planning Programme of that organisation. They did give us a certain amount of technical support and information on comparable or related developments in other countries with which they were conversant but, as I say, in the main, it was carried out by Irish people. We owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to the steering committee, of which an assistant secretary of my Department, Mr. Seán Mac Gearailt, was chairman, and to the survey team under Mr. Patrick Lynch. They gave of their time and produced this tremendous document and two other documents of equal breadth and depth, annexes and appendices thereto, in the comparatively short time of about two years. This team could well set a headline to other bodies——

Mr. James Tully

It is a pity we all have not civil servants at our disposal.

Mr. O'Malley

——in the expeditious manner in which they carried out their task. I should like to mention what exactly was achieved by the Investment in Education team, and particularly that most of the information, statistics and observations have been “cogged” by the Fine Gael Party in their very detailed policy document. We do not criticise them for that, but when people have suggested in the press that mine was not a statement of policy, I should like to stress that it was a member of the present Government, a previous Minister for Education, Deputy Dr. Hillery, who initiated this procedure whereby Investment in Education was published and made available the information on which the Fine Gael Party's plan was based and these discussions have taken place. I would bring this to the attention of all commentators dealing with these matters in journals, on television and radio.

In the first chapter of this publication they went through the whole Irish educational system without trying to hide any of the defects which might have appeared to exist. They were quite factual in everything they said. In Chapter I the whole system, starting with the general background, was dealt with. They considered national schools, secondary schools, the special schools, the reformatories, teacher training colleges, non-aided primary schools, non-aided secondary schools, vocational schools, agricultural schools, universities, other third level methods of teaching, non-aided religious schools, participation rates and part-time education. That was all done in an exemplary fashion.

I was in Paris recently at a meeting of UNESCO. A Minister for Education in another country, which I shall not name, told me that this report pioneered by Ireland had won tremendous attention in other European countries and had set a headline for the manner in which it was carried out. It is a great compliment to us in Ireland that we have been the pioneers in this development.

Mr. James Tully

They obviously thought you were Deputy Dr. Hillery.

Mr. O'Malley

Chapter II of Investment in Education deals with forecasts of population and in the following chapters they deal with forecasts of pupil enrolment, in junior cycle, senior cycle, third level and part-time education. In a very comprehensive way they deal with the projected requirements and supply of teachers and schools. This was of tremendous help to us. What was the outcry on 10th September when I made my speech at the NUJ dinner in Dún Laoghaire? The first cry was: “Where are we going to get the money?” That is not a difficulty to Fine Gael now. They say it will not require increased taxation but will come from the buoyancy of the revenue. Then we had the cry: “How can you give free education up to intermediate level?” Mark you, on 10th September my commitment was up to intermediate level with assistance up to leaving certificate level.

Mr. James Tully

We did not hear anything about the leaving certificate.

Mr. O'Malley

In the next paragraph, I said on 10th of September that financial assistance would be required for parents who wished to continue their children's education up to leaving certificate. Now that my scheme has been announced, we are catering for 75 per cent of the pupils going to day schools up to leaving certificate level. Then they asked: "Where is he going to get the schools?" and: "Where is he going to get the teachers?" That was the negative approach. This inequality of treatment of our children was crying out to high heaven for rectification. I am very glad that in the dying months of this historic year we are at least in the process of fulfilling one part of the Proclamation by giving equality of education to all our children, although the Proclamation is still a long way from being fulfilled.

To get back to Investment in Education, not one word of tribute was paid to the detailed work of those who prepared this document and made available the information which, in certain instances, is quoted verbatim in the Fine Gael document. Investment in Education goes on to deal with the projected requirements and supply of teachers and schools, the cost projections of the different grades—primary, secondary, vocational, comprehensive, colleges of technology, universities— and they deal with the problems of teacher training and other State educational expenditure. They give a summary of their views at the end of Chapter V.

In Part II of Investment in Education, they deal with the educational sector; flow pattern and output; the participation now and the anticipated participation in the future in the light of the experience gained. They took as a base the intermediate certificate candidates in 1963. They deal with leavers from the junior cycle in the secondary schools. They deal with the senior cycle, leaving certificate; matriculation requirements; comparison with England and Wales; entrants to universities; those who left full-time education before taking the leaving certificate; the other senior cycle leavers. They went on to deal in great detail with the vocational schools continuation courses, day group certificate, and the number that left these courses. They gave the reasons they attributed to why they left. They dealt with national school leavers and other schools and provided a summary at the end of the chapter.

In Part II of this second section they went into great detail in respect of participation in education and anticipated participation. They dealt with social groups in Ireland; town and rural areas; the differences between the counties; a survey of those who leave school at an early age and they gave the background of the social groupings at national and secondary school levels.

One of the most important sections of this document is Chapter VII, which deals with manpower policy in Ireland at present and in the years that lie ahead. They deal with the compatibility of manpower requirement with population data and the trends which exist. They deal with the methods they used for forecasting, so that educationists who write on this topic would have a base for constructive criticism and discussion. They deal with the historical approach. Before one can discuss education in Ireland one has to understand the history of our educational system, the history of our national schools, how they came into being, why the religious orders play so prominent a part in our educational system, the history of our universities, how they came to be set up, the 1908 Act and its ramifications, how the constituent colleges of the National University came into being, the historical background of Trinity College, one of the most renowned universities not only in Europe but indeed in the world. They give the manpower projections for the future, what would be the requirements when we get into Europe and what was the vital work to be done in the apparently very short interim period. They deal with the compatibility of manpower requirements with the estimated population in 1971, the highly qualified manpower which would be required and which we lack at present. They give a revision of the estimates which had been made up to now.

In Chapter VIII, a most fascinating chapter, which is again referred to in the Fine Gael document, they give a comparison of requirements and supply by educational levels. This was all set out here in great detail and referred to in great detail, too, by Fine Gael.

Then, in Part III, we have statements on the present use of our resources in national schools; the cost aspects; the present distribution of teachers in Ireland in national schools and the distribution of schools generally; the current costs and the capital costs and a very truthful analysis of the benefits as the team see them; the examination performance, with statistics setting out results; the age standard distribution of pupils, the school curricula and criticism of the school curricula and criticism of the primary school with some of which I am in thorough agreement. All of these headings, in some instances or in all, were used by Fine Gael which was a great compliment to the survey team and to my colleagues, in setting up this project.

I have denounced and condemned the primary certificate examination in Ireland but Fine Gael have announced that their plan is to abolish in toto the primary certificate. I will not say it is a retrograde step but I do not think it is a very wise decision. The conception of the primary certificate, as we know it at the present time, is diabolical. Certain decisions must immediately be taken which will ensure that the curricula are revised and the method of setting the examination papers is reviewed. I propose, there, that the members of my Department will sit down with the teachers, who, after all, are in the field, so to speak——

Mr. James Tully

Some of the primary teachers make an odd mistake.

Mr. O'Malley

Everyone makes mistakes.

Mr. James Tully

In the House, I mean.

Mr. O'Malley

They will set the paper, then, and it will be corrected——

Mr. James Tully

As he was.

Mr. O'Malley

——we hope, by the principal of the school. There are such things, of course, as the unfortunate position at the present time where there is, particularly as far as the Irish language is concerned, far too much emphasis on grammar. I have already announced that it is my hope to ensure that homework for children of ten years of age and under is cut out. We have already tackled this problem. We recognise that it is terriblv important to get to the root of things at the start of a child's career.

Coming back again to Investment in Education, there is a very interesting chapter on the facilities and amenities in our existing national schools. There is a tremendous chapter on the building of national schools generally and there is comment on some of the unwise policies which might, with certain changes, be to the benefit of the country as a whole. We read of the school building programme of the future. There is an exhaustive breakdown on teacher training, what defects in the present system appear to be evident to the team and what improvements could be brought about: what numbers are required. Then, at the end, we have the summary and conclusions.

In Chapter 10, they deal fully with post-primary education. There is a full chapter on the secondary schools, the distribution of the schools, the distribution of secondary school teachers, the qualifications of secondary school teachers, the benefits—and then they summarise. They went on, then, and dealt with the whole facet of vocational and technical education. They dealt with continuation education, the location of schools, the distribution of teaching resources, the quality of teaching, the pattern of curricula, unit costs, technical and apprentice education and then, again, they summarise and there are the conclusions.

Then—here again referred to by Fine Gael without any tribute or mention of source of origin, so to speak— there is this tremendous chapter on the financing of Irish education in national, post-primary and third level establishments. Chapter 12 covers the whole field of educational organisation and development with paragraphs on manpower, participation, efficiency and finance.

In Chapter 13, we find the recommendations of the team for reorganisation in the Department of Education itself. There is the question of the Development Branch which they so strongly came out in favour of and which in fact has already been set up. Chapter 14 deals with aiding educational development in the emergent countries. Chapter 15 deals with education and economic progress. The language was not too simple but, here again, this is a most important chapter in showing to a pattern, in no uncertain manner, if it could be put into ordinary everyday parlance, what a tremendous investment for a child it was by a parent to put it on for further education after the compulsory school leaving period had been arrived at. Then, at the end of it, they dealt with the issues and problems emerging from the information which they had gleaned. In addition, there are two volumes of annexes and appendices, two volumes the equal of this volume, Investment in Education. Annexe A deals with the training of teachers of all levels—art teachers, domestic science teachers, manual instructors (woodwork and metal work), and physical education. There is a breakdown of the tables as existing and the requirements anticipated by them.

Annexe B deals with our reformatories and industrial schools. Then, in Annexe C, we have possibly one of the most important chapters. I think we are all very keen that achievements should be rapid and substantial so far as the special schools for the mentally and physically handicapped are concerned. A great deal has been achieved but there is still a lot to be done. Annexe D, on the secondary tops, was fascinating to me. At present, there are about 8,000 pupils in the secondary tops, that is, national schools which go on with post-primary education to a certain degree. The fees they charge are low. Consideration is given to accommodation and capacity; the curriculum and the effect of secondary tops on national schools; the very high quality of pupils coming out of these schools. It is a very interesting observation by the team. Then, of course, they deal with the non-aided primary schools. They deal with statistics relative to the work of an educational development unit now set up in my Department.

Mr. Dillon

On a point of order, is this performance by the Minister not an insult to the House? The Minister is making no effort whatever to answer the debate. He is simply rambling around, and reading extracts from the report.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a matter for the Chair.

Mr. O'Malley

I know, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that the points I am hammering home are not very pleasing to Deputy Dillon. For his information, I have shown in no uncertain way that the information contained in Investment in Education and the appendices and annexes thereto form the basis of our future educational policy. It was, indeed, “cogged” in the main by the Fine Gael Party in their pseudo Fine Gael document without paying any compliment whatever to the steering committee and survey team. Indeed, they were critical of one particular member.

I have made my points and I would commend those who are interested in education to study this tremendous document. It is not light reading and would want to be read over and over again. Some of the recommendations have been adopted by my Department.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister has been complaining for the past quarter of an hour that we have read it too well.

Mr. O'Malley

The difference between the Fine Gael Party and the Government is, as I said in my Estimate speech last week, that we are carrying out the proposals but as far as Fine Gael are concerned, it is so much pie in the sky and they have not the responsibility to implement these proposals. We have that responsibility. We are, therefore, facing up to the fact that any proposals made by us will have to be paid for by the Irish people and the money will not be got from such doubtful sources as the buoyancy of the revenue. Indeed, I throughly agree with Deputy Dillon in his most constructive contribution. I say that in a most sincere way, Sir, about Deputy Dillon's speech on this Estimate. He gave a fair summary. A paraphrase of what he did say is: where is all the money for these different social services to come from?

Of course, this is a major problem but we will have to face up to it. When I was Minister for Health, exactly the same problem arose about the cost of increased and improved services. The Labour Party and Fine Gael are always talking about health services on the basis of the insurance stamp. I was against the stamp for health but I was quite willing, if we had to, to accept the principle of insurance. It meant putting health on to the social welfare stamp.

I shall relate what I am about to say, Sir, to this Estimate in a moment. The difficulty I saw was whether it was all right for the State to contribute one-third, the employers to contribute one-third and the worker to contribute one-third. The difficulties in health related to the self-employed, particularly to farmers, paying what could be considered very heavy contributions. After all, a farmer has a son and a daughter working for him on the farm. He is the employer and he pays that contribution. He will also have to pay the contributions for the daughter, the son, and so on. It is a problem.

I have considered the problems mentioned by Deputy Dillon of the cost in the future, where the money will come from, and I have shown that there will be continuity year by year in our educational programme, as well as everything else. It is possible that with the best will in the world, a great social development, such as that which with my humble plans, so to speak, will mean to education, could be stymied or held up in a certain year, if things were difficult or if there were urgent strains on the economy. I have under consideration, which of course will be subject to the agreement of the Minister for Finance, a scheme whereby in Ireland some day we can have all social development tied by a stamp. It will include social welfare as at present, possibly health and possibly education. This would be worthy of examination in order to achieve the continuity of which I speak.

Labour and Fine Gael always say health should be worked out on a comprehensive insurance basis and there is a certain merit in this by way of meeting the absolute difficulties that outweigh the benefits. Nevertheless, we ought to get our people, and all Parties, to agree that social welfare, health and education could be considered under a type of social insurance development stamp, or a social development stamp, or some such method, in order to ensure that continuity grows, as Deputy Dillon said, year by year.

This scheme, which I now put before the House for very favourable consideration, will not cost less, I must admit, in the years that lie ahead but the rate of contribution and the contribution for general education must increase if we are to have, to put it crudely, economic survival in this country in our approach to and our ultimate joining with Europe. I should like to reiterate that, while I have attacked the Fine Gael Policy, so to speak, for taking so much of my Department's document into their policy statement, I have seen one or two points in the Fine Gael document which appeal to me and I shall certainly utilise them.

Mr. Dillon

You bet your boots you will if you get the chance.

Mr. O'Malley

It would be a bad thing if I were not to take cognisance of proposals which emanate from other sides of the House. I have read the Labour Party policy long ago. I differ from the Labour Party policy in one instance. They think that further education should depend on the ability of the child.

Mr. Larkin

That is not correct.

Mr. O'Malley

As was pointed out some time ago, the Labour Party's point is that further education should depend on the ability of the child and not the financial considerations of the parents.

Mr. Larkin

The Minister is misinterpreting the Labour Party policy.

Mr. O'Malley

That is the wording of it.

Mr. Larkin

No child should be denied the opportunity of further education.

Mr. O'Malley

Everyone considers, including me, that the Labour Party framed their proposals on the ability of the child. I do not want to make too much play on that because they did at least propose an approach to free education for certain less well-off children and they recognised the problem was critical.

It is an important point and, speaking in particular to one who is looked on as the upholder of all the great Parliamentary traditions of the past, Deputy Dillon, I do not think it is good enough to interrupt me and to say, "You may bet your life you will steal a bit of our policy that appeals to you." I think a Minister should if we are to have Parliament functioning as it should. I do not mind saying that if any man, woman or child will submit a policy or some suggestion which would benefit our children I will have no hesitation in using it, from whatever source it may come.

Our primary consideration is our children. In Ireland, we may differ on certain political aspects of the method of implementing a policy. We may differ as to how schemes are to be paid for. Fundamentally, there is no difference between any of us with regard to the provision of improved and increased educational facilities for our children. Every Party in the House subscribes to the view that these are fundamental. We may differ as to method—nothing else.

There is one matter which I did not refer to at the outset, because my address, as the public, unfortunately, do not understand, was a pure Estimate speech. I should perhaps, as Deputy Larkin mentioned, in due course, perhaps, produce a more thorough document on the hopes and ambitions of the Department of Education and have it debated in the Dáil. The document which has been produced, Investment in Education, is a type of White Paper, so to speak. It has certainly been a guideline and basic document for us to work on for the future. All these things are not decided overnight. I suppose that in 50 or 60 years' time, when there will be none of us in the House, there will be Ministers for Education and people in the Opposition debating education and suggesting improvements in the system.

I should have liked to have referred to a matter which is agitating our minds in the Department, that is the schools medical service. I was very close to that problem when I was in the Department of Health. The schools medical service at the present time, to use a mild term, is most unsatisfactory. We are having discussions with my colleague, the Minister for Health, and his officials to see if we can have an improved and more enlightened service. We may talk about great developments and about transport but, if the children are not healthy, we are not doing our job properly. It struck me as Minister for Health as most appalling that in the case of the poorer children, when defects were discovered in their teeth on the occasion of the dentist's visit to the national school, the rate of extractions was very high. The waiting period is tragic. If a child is in agony and is very poor and has to wait a considerable period before he is treated, that is very serious. We have not yet solved that problem. If one of our children develops a toothache tomorrow morning that is bad enough but, because treatment is paid for, he can get attention in a matter of hours. The poor child has to go through the school medical examination and has to queue up and, most tragic of all, where a tooth could be saved, as in the case of our children, it is extracted. The system is impersonal. This is where more co-ordination is needed between my Department and the Department of Health.

Mr. Dillon

Surely that is fantastic nonsense? Any poor child in this country who gets toothache can go to the hospital nearest to him and will be looked after.

Mr. O'Malley

I must confess to Deputy Dillon that it was a problem which I had not solved when I left the Department of Health. I appreciate the point he makes. A child could I suppose, in the last analysis, go to a hospital but there is an amazing lack of knowledge in regard to the facilities that are available.

Mr. Dillon

Do you mean to say that a child with a toothache would be turned away anywhere in Ireland?

Mr. O'Malley

I should like to explain the matter to the Deputy although an outsider coming in would think that we were on the Estimate for Health.

Mr. Dillon

I agree.

Mr. O'Malley

The dentist, whose daily visit might be from 11 to 12 or 11 to 12.30, might be gone. There are cases. However, half the solution is recognising that a problem exists and the second thing is to do something about it in as short a time as possible.

With reference to some of the points made in the debate——

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear.

Mr. O'Malley

The Fine Gael document had quite a long prologue, rather longer than its specific undertakings or proposals.

Mr. Corry

That will be forgotten after tomorrow.

Mr. O'Malley

Deputy Lindsay spoke at length. I think I have covered most of the points he made as far as the authorship of this document, Investment in Education, is concerned.

The question of small schools was mentioned by Deputy Lindsay. He has his point in regard to them. I should like to say, as far as the closing of one-teacher and two-teacher schools is concerned, that I have no doctrinaire outlook in the matter. I have to face the advice tendered to me by everyone, by my officials and other educationists. We are all agreed about how right Deputy Dillon was in the past that, educationally as well as economically, the advantage of the improved higher grade of education available to a child in the larger type of school is irrefutable and undeniable. Nevertheless, it would be a bad thing to say, across the board, we are going to close all the one-teacher and two-teacher schools in Ireland.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear.

Mr. O'Malley

This would be bad. To use that medical card phraseology, each case should be dealt with on its merits. In every case the question of the closing of a school requires the most careful examination. The average attendance at a school may be declining substantially, owing to its geographical location. There would be local knowledge. There could be discussions with my officials, one of my senior inspectors, with the reverend manager and the parents, on the basis that local knowledge had come to us that while the average was low and the case looked bad for the retention of a certain small school, nevertheless there was hope that a factory was coming in or there was some development going on. There again it is often possible to postpone a decision. What I really want to say is that there will always be cases for the retention of small schools in certain cases.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Minister would not disagree with our formula on it?

Mr. O'Malley

Well, of course, I did not get the Fine Gael document until just before I came in here on the day of my Estimate, contrary to the opinions of the Fine Gael Party.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Minister had enough to read without it.

Mr. O'Malley

When I made my speech in Dún Laoghaire to the NUJ on 10th September, I sent a copy to every Member of the House. That was the week before——

Mr. Cosgrave

That was the promised speech.

Mr. O'Malley

That was the week before Deputy Dillon made his remarkable speech up there near the border about loving one's neighbours. Remember that, Deputy Dillon? Do you love me, Deputy Dillon? It was a fascinating speech. As the former Deputy Mulcahy used often say— prudence, justice and charity.

Mr. Cosgrave

Nearly as fascinating as this one.

Mr. O'Malley

I would like to say this, that I did say——

Mr. Dillon

Is there anything wrong with the speech I made?

Mr. O'Malley

No, except for the extraordinary environment which evidently exists there. Prudence, justice and charity seem to be forgotten when one comes here.

Mr. Corry

That was for the by-election.

Mr. O'Malley

This is only my opinion. It was a very interesting and commendable speech if it could be put into practice by all of us——

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear.

Mr. O'Malley

—— because I think lack of charity is the only sin nowadays.

Mr. Dillon

It is the decalogue.

Mr. O'Malley

I want to refer to school accommodation. The criticisms of my original announcement were: lack of money; where will he get the teachers and where are the schools? As far as my scheme is concerned——

Mr. Dillon

He has forgotten his own scheme.

Mr. O'Malley

No; this is a more detailed document which I slashed and cut down.

Mr. Cosgrave

Who produced this, the Department?

Mr. O'Malley

I write everything myself. The point I want to make is this: I do not mind admitting that next September there will be schools which will be full. There is no question or doubt about that.

Mr. Dillon

We are all agreed about that. There are now schools which are full.

Mr. O'Malley

If Deputy Dillon will bear with me—next September, I am bringing up all schools which, at the present time, charge fees of under £15. Strangely enough, there are schools in Ireland which charge fees of £5 and under. There are 387 pupils in Ireland today whose fees are under £5. There are 4,315 pupils in Ireland today whose fees are between £5 and £10. There are 18,749 pupils in Ireland today who are paying fees between £10 and £15.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Minister not know that there are hundreds who are paying no fees at all?

Mr. O'Malley

I shall come to that. The Deputy is perfectly right—at a tremendous sacrifice.

Mr. Dillon

Exactly, but not by the Government.

Mr. O'Malley

No, by certain members of religious Orders who plough back their salaries, for example. Therefore we have a total of nearly 23,000 pupils paying under £15. I have seen comments in the newspapers and I have been asked about this £15. What I am doing is bringing up all the fees of those 23,000 pupils under £15 to £15 and saying: "You were giving just the basic elements of education; if you cater for the following minima, we will bring you up to £15."

On the question of the £25, there are 19,500 or 20,000 pupils in Ireland paying between £15 and £20 and another 10,000 paying between £20 and £25. Between £25 and £30, there are another 5,000. Before I announced this scheme, we wrote to every secondary school and asked them kindly to fill up a questionnaire, as they did, to set out what fees they were charging in the current year. If a school wrote back and said they were charging a fee of £20, next September we will give them the £20. If they were charging £16, we will give them the £16. I know that people ask: "Why do you not give £30 or £25 across the board?" I agree, but this at least is a start, and it is costing over £1,600,000.

A friend of mine said to me the other day: "I am paying £60 for my child; will I be in?" This is the wrong approach. We say to the man who is paying £60 that it is not a question of his being in or out. Free education will be available, and if the man who is paying £60 at the present time finds it a hardship on him, then we will have a school where he will not be charged any fees. I know perfectly well that in my own city of Limerick—I do not have to go beyond that—there will be certain schools within these fee limits which next September will be full to the door. What the people do not realise is this: I am not giving at this stage a choice of school. I am not saying to the Reverend President or Rector or head of the school: "You will take in A, B, C, or D". Remember the State does not own the secondary schools in Ireland. For historical reasons, they are private property, so to speak. The State pays capitation grants for the several pupils in the junior and senior schools; we pay, after the basic salaries are paid, the entire teachers' salaries in the secondary schools, religious and lay, but we do not own them. Fine Gael according to their document, particularly as far as diocesan colleges are concerned, assume that the State owns these schools.

Mr. Cosgrave

That is not so.

Mr. O'Malley

Well, from the phraseology——

Mr. Cosgrave

We commented on the fact that because of them, education was provided cheaply for a lot of people. Under this system, can a person opt for the school he wants to attend? Can he opt for a particular school or must he go to one——

Mr. O'Malley

That is a very reasonable question. There will not be a choice of school next September, but there will be free education available. A parent may not be able to get the child into a particular school.

Mr. Cosgrave

That is the point: will there be accommodation?

Mr. O'Malley

I am coming to that. That is one of the first questions I asked my officials. It is one of the first questions I was asked by my colleagues in the Government. I was also asked where I would get the teachers. May I say that the whole of Ireland is not going back to school next September? Unfortunately, and I say this after due consideration, I doubt if the demand next September will be so great that it will overwhelmingly tax our existing resources.

Mr. Dillon

In our secondary schools?

Mr. O'Malley

Yes. I am not unduly worried either about the availability of teachers or the accommodation problem. Naturally there will be growing pains. A mother will want to send her child to a particular school, but there will be no place available for him in the school because it will be full to the doors. Without any scheme, this is actually happening at the moment. The point is we will create a situation in which every child will be offered free secondary education. It may be argued that this will create a difficult problem but one must remember that it is now possible to go through vocational school without taking any technical subjects whatsoever. One can now do purely academic subjects in a vocational school. I do not say there will be many instances of that, but it is possible that it will be the case.

New buildings will have to be provided. In my opening speech I told the House that we created 23,000 odd new places in primary schools alone. That will have a bearing on the problem. I admit it is a problem, but it is not an insurmountable one. It is not incapable of being solved. I do not expect any child who wants to continue his education next September, without cost to his parents, to be denied that opportunity. I admit entrance to a secondary school of choice will not be possible next September, but in the years that lie ahead, the position will improve. The graph will be rising all the time from next September onwards and I hope it will rise very steeply as the years go by, with particular emphasis on vocational education and comprehensive schools.

Before I leave the subject of accommodation, I believe we have not given sufficient consideration to the full utilisation of our existing national schools with a view to their participation in post-primary education. There are approximately 8,000 pupils in what are called the secondary tops at the moment. There is a high percentage of national teachers fully qualified to teach post-primary pupils. One of the tasks to which my officials are bending their energies at the moment is the utilisation of the existing primary schools. For instance, instead of having children leaving the primary school at 12 years of age, it should be possible to bring in a vocational teacher once or twice a week; that solution is worthy of consideration and will, I think, play a big part in our future educational development.

I might mention, in passing, that a case was brought to my notice this morning. It is not a typical example, perhaps, but there are no less than five classrooms idle in a national school at the moment.

Mr. Dillon

Where is this interesting school with five empty classrooms?

Mr. O'Malley

I do not want to give the details. I have said it is not typical. There are certain reasons why the classrooms are idle. They are in good condition. That, of course, is not the position in many parts of the country, but this is worthy of consideration nevertheless.

Mr. Dillon

It would be a fascinating thing to find out where this school is.

Mr. O'Malley

It does not really prove anything. I just mention it in passing.

Mr. Larkin

It is not in the central city area, is it?

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy is not far wrong.

Mr. Larkin

The population moved out. Arran Quay, is it?

Mr. O'Malley

I said it is not typical, but that situation exists in one particular case. Why should we not utilise it?

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear.

Mr. O'Malley

Why not use the classrooms?

Mr. Dillon

Instead of putting 50 children in one classroom in another part of the city.

Mr. O'Malley

That situation is worthy of consideration.

I mentioned the comprehensive schools. The Fine Gael policy document goes into reasonable detail as far as these schools are concerned. It was suggested by some speakers that Government policy in regard to comprehensive schools was not as enthusiastic possibly as it should be or as it was in the first flush of appreciation of the potentialities of that particular concept. That is not so. We have already finished Shannon, Cootehill, Carraroe, and the plans for Glenties are being prepared.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.