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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 16 May 1967

Vol. 228 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Posts and Telegraphs.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £21,394,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1968, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and of certain other Services administered by that Office, and for payment of a Grant-in-Aid.

The net Estimate of £21,394,000 for my Department is shown in the Estimates volume as £1,788,000 greater than last year's. The figures for last year, however, do not include an additional £1,302,000 provided near the end of the year in the supplementary estimate for increases in remuneration to meet the cost of the tenth round and other pay awards for the Civil Service generally. When allowance is also made for an increase of £75,000 in broadcasting licence revenue transferred by way of Subhead K to Radio Telefís Éireann, the actual increase in the provision for my Department is £411,000, and is substantially due to higher capital repayments—in Subhead G—arising from the expanding capital investment in the telephone service.

Other subheads with variations of some size as compared with last year are:

The increase shown under Subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances— is £1,667,000, of which approximately £1,200,000 is to meet the cost during this year of the pay revisions just mentioned. The greater part of the balance is to provide for additional labour force and overtime to meet the needs of the engineering programme for telephone development. Numerically, the staffing position in the Department as a whole shows a slight reduction.

The increase of £47,000 under Subhead D—Conveyance of Mails—is mainly to provide for increased airmail traffic.

The largest elements in the increase of £58,000 under Subhead E—Postal and General Stores—are some £30,000 more for the expansion of the postal motor fleet and some £10,000 more for purchases of uniform clothing.

The main reasons for the decrease of £290,000 under Subhead F—Engineering Stores and Equipment—are that about £150,000 less is being provided for the purchase of stores and about £125,000 less for contract works. These reductions arise from casual variations in provisions totalling over £5 million.

The increase of £341,000 under Subhead T—Appropriations in Aid—arises mainly from the increased recovery expected from telephone capital funds under this year's programme.

Letter traffic in 1966 was about one per cent higher than in the previous year. Approximately 427 million items were handled. The volume of air postings continued to show a substantial increase, first-class mail being up by over five per cent and second-class mail by 27 per cent.

There was no appreciable change in the level of inland parcel traffic during the year. Foreign parcel postings rose by over eight per cent. In all 8 million parcels approximately were handled.

The number of meter-franked postings in 1966 increased by nearly seven per cent and now constitutes about 28 per cent of total postings. This growth in the volume of prefranked mail is a welcome development and one which the Department has encouraged by relaxing the conditions governing postings by firms using postage meter-franking machines.

The British seamen's strike in May and June, 1966, caused some delay to parcel mails to and from Britain and to foreign surface mails normally routed through Britain. The services were, however, kept going despite the difficulties.

A high standard of mails service continues to be provided. Over 92 per cent of first-class letter postings is delivered throughout the country by the following working day and second-class mail and parcels get almost as good a service. The bulk of mail for places outside the country goes by air on the day of posting and most mail received from abroad is delivered on the day of receipt or on the following working day. By providing a postal delivery at least once on each weekday for every house on the mainland, however remotely situated, the Department is giving a service which compares favourably with that given by any other postal administration.

Approximately 77 per cent of postal service expenditure consists of staff and related costs. The scope for reducing the high staff content in postal operations by improved methods, including mechanisation, is generally accepted to be limited and there is certainly no prospect of absorbing the additional expenditure of about £60,000 a year which follows each 1 per cent wage increase in the postal service. It is nevertheless important that every practicable means should be availed of to increase productivity although this inevitably means employing fewer men to do the same amount of work.

Amalgamation of posts on motorisation resulted in a reduction of 64 rural posts. On the other hand, it was necessary to create 26 new full-time posts in cities and larger towns to cater for increase in business, due mainly to housing development.

Twenty-three sub-post offices, where the amount of business transacted was trivial, were closed in 1966 on the occurrence of vacancies. Three further offices have been closed since the beginning of this year. In addition to 98 departmentally staffed offices, the country is served by 2,136 sub-offices. These figures represent facilities on a more generous scale than obtains in most other countries.

In line with the earlier closing hours introduced last year, the hours of closing of Dublin branch post offices have recently been altered to provide for a 6.0 p.m. closing. There has been no change in the hours of business at St. Andrew Street Post Office or at the GPO, O'Connell Street.

The new Central Sorting Office at Sheriff Street, Dublin, will be fully operational within the next few months. The office block has already been occupied and at present the work of installing and testing equipment is nearing completion. The transfer of staff and operations from the four other premises in the Dublin area will be carried out in stages. Certain mail distribution work now being performed under contract will be taken over by the Department. A fine garage and workshop equipped to service over 100 vehicles adjoins the main building.

The new sorting office is being equipped with the most modern mail-handling machinery, including semi-automatic parcel and packet machines and conveying equipment of various kinds. It is intended to provide other automatic equipment according as prototypes have been developed to a satisfactory stage elsewhere. There is no doubt that a high degree of mechanisation in the handling and sorting of letter post in large centres such as Dublin will become practicable within the next few years. The standardisation of the sizes of envelopes will be important in facilitating mechanisation. During the past year manufacturing and other interests in this country have been consulted on the question of adopting certain standards of sizes recommended by the Universal Postal Union. I hope to be in a position to make an announcement in this regard during the year.

The public are continuing to co-operate in the use of postal district numbers on letters addressed to places in Dublin and the volume of letters bearing district numbers continues to increase. The question of extending the numbering scheme is being examined.

The dual-aperture boxes provided in the Dublin central city area have proved very satisfactory in reducing the pressure of sorting work in the evening peak traffic period. Here again there has been excellent co-operation on the part of the posting public.

Machines for vending books of stamps introduced on trial in the GPO and some other Dublin Offices in December 1966 have proved satisfactory, as has a change-giving machine which has been in use at the GPO. It is proposed to provide further units of both types of machines at other offices.

Special postage stamps were issued in 1966 to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the 1916 Rising and the Signatories of the Proclamation of the Republic, the 50th anniversary of the death of Roger Casement and the 750th anniversary of the founding of Ballintubber Abbey. We also joined with other members of the European Conference of Postal and Telecommunications Administrations in producing a "Europa" stamp in 1966.

The special stamp programme for 1967 has already commenced with the recent "Europa" issue. During the year we will have stamps commemorating the centenary of the Fenian Rising, the centenary of the Canadian Confederation, the tercentenary of the death of Jonathan Swift, and a stamp marking International Tourist year.

Designs for the proposed new series of permanent postage stamps have now been approved by the Government and I expect to be in a position to make an announcement shortly.

The decline in telegraph traffic was somewhat less than in the previous year. A total of 1,346,000 telegrams was handled during 1966. This represents a decrease of 2.7 per cent on the figure for 1965, as compared with a drop of six per cent last year. The decline was greatest in telegrams to Great Britain and Northern Ireland which fell by ten per cent. Telegrams from Great Britain and Northern Ireland and internal traffic were both down by a little over one per cent and the number of foreign telegrams handled, which had been increasing steadily in recent years, remained more or less static.

Although it will be some time before firm figures for 1966-67 become available, the indications are that the deficit on the telegraph service, which can be found in almost all European countries, will be somewhat less than the deficit of £192,000 in 1965-66.

The Gentex system, which provides for direct transmission of telegrams by means of automatic switching, was extended during the year to include Italy. Accordingly, Ireland now ex-exchanges telegrams directly with seven continental countries, namely Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, Luxembourg, France, Norway and Italy.

Working to a telegraph relay unit in London, to which over 70 countries are connected, was introduced during the year. During periods of heavy traffic, in particular, this greatly expedites the re-transmission in London of telegrams between Ireland and those countries with which direct working is not available.

The continuing decline in telegraph traffic made it possible during the year to cease teleprinter working at another office—Wexford—formerly connected to the teleprinter automatic switching system. Traffic formerly handled by this office is now diverted to a neighbouring office—Waterford—which is capable of handling the traffic more economically.

As from the 1st April, 1967, responsibility for the operation, maintenance and staffing of the coast radio stations at Malin Head and Valentia was transferred to the Department of Transport and Power. The main purpose of the coast radio stations is, of course, to provide a maritime safety service. This is the responsibility of the Department of Transport and Power and that Department has in recent years made good the deficit on the operation of the stations. The change in control brings the position regarding the coast radio service into line with the position on the civil aviation radio side. The Post Office Engineering Branch will continue to carry out all engineering work at the stations on behalf of the Department of Transport and Power. Malin Head and Valentia will continue to handle commercial radio telegrams and the Post Office will remain responsible for the accounting arrangements for that traffic.

The telex service continues to expand. During the financial year 1966-67 the number of subscribers increased from 342 to 430. Demand for the service has remained at a reasonably high level and there is every indication that this position will obtain for quite some time. In view of the anticipated future expansion, my Department is planning the installation of an extension which will double the capacity of the existing exchange.

In his speech on the Estimate last October, my predecessor said that it had been necessary to suspend the connection of new subscribers for a couple of months last summer, that there was at that time a waiting list of 135, that additional engineering staff were being trained on telex work, but that in general new applicants would have to wait at least six months for service. I am glad to report that, although there is still a shortage of trained staff for telex installation and maintenance, considerable progress has been made in clearing the backlog. The waiting list has been reduced to 65 and of these 25 are in course of installation and a further 24 have been offered service. Of the 16 deferred applications, two are in Dublin and the balance in the provinces. It is hoped to provide service for the majority of the deferred applicants within the next few months. In a small number of cases delay may be greater, for example, where a local telephone circuit is not available or where voice frequency telegraph equipment has to be specially provided to cater for a provincial subscriber.

I am glad to say that, on the assumption that the future level of demand will not exceed that of 1966, we expect to be able to provide service generally within a few months of application in Dublin and Cork city areas and also at Shannon Airport. In other areas the time needed to meet applicants' requirements may be somewhat greater for the reasons already mentioned and because of the shortage of experienced local fitting staff in some engineering districts.

Telex service is now available to 105 countries.

During the year my Department received many inquiries regarding the importation and use of walkie-talkie equipment operating on frequencies in the 27 megacycles band. I am not prepared to license this particular type of walkie-talkie equipment because the 27 megacycles band has been allocated for industrial, scientific and medical use and because of the danger of serious interference to television reception and possibly other radio services. In December, 1966, my Department issued a statement to the press on this particular matter pointing out that possestion of unlicensed transmitting apparatus contravenes the 1926 Wireless Telegraphy Act, and that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is empowered to get a "search and seize" warrant on the grounds that anyone who keeps one in his possession and has not the appropriate licence is contravening the section concerned in the Act.

Of course, persons who have a genuine need for walkie-talkie equipment can get a licence from my Department for the use of type-approved equipment operating in a different frequency band.

Business Radio was first introduced here in 1947 and since then its use has increased steadily. Licences are issued in cases where other forms of telecommunication are not suitable, for example, where companies require to use radiotelephone units to maintain direct communication between vehicles and offices. Some of the larger users are the ESB, Bord na Móna, CIE, radio taxis, TV maintenance services and, in a smaller way, veterinary surgeons and doctors. The number of licences current on 31st March last was 295 as compared with 258 a year ago. The number of stations licensed on the same date was 2,146. The revenue derived from Business Radio over the past year was about £14,000.

Expansion of the telephone service continued at a satisfactory rate in 1966. The traffic dealt with was 9.2 per cent more than in the previous year, and amounted to 235 million calls, 211 million local calls and 24 million trunk calls. Eighty-one per cent of all calls were dialled directly without the intervention of operators.

The extension and improvement of the trunk system, which has received special attention in recent years, was continued. During the year 1,500 additional trunk circuits, comprising some 53,000 circuit miles, were provided on 235 routes, mainly in underground cables and radio links. The number of routes dependent on open wire circuits was further reduced, with consequent improvement in the quality and reliability of the service in the areas affected. Over 60 main routes received additional circuits and five new underground schemes and 56 new aerial cable schemes were completed.

Twenty additional circuits were provided on the cross-Channel route and a further 110 are being provided this year.

Considerable progress was made with the extension of the automatic system. Seventy-two manual exchanges were converted to automatic working during the year, including such important ones as Ballinasloe, Enniscorthy, Mallow, Mountmellick. Portarlington, Tipperary and Youghal. So far this year 11 more new automatic exchanges have been opened including those at Bandon and Clonakilty. A further 50 will be opened during the remainder of the year including one at Kilkenny which, with 800 subscribers, is the biggest manual exchange now remaining in the country.

A new exchange was opened at Coolock in Dublin and an underground cabling scheme costing over £90,000 has been virtually completed in the same area. These developments will enable a major clearance of waiting applications to be carried out in this district, where subscriber development has been slow for some time past.

The equipment of 20 automatic and 75 manual exchanges was substantially extended to provide for future subscriber and traffic growth. There are about 260 automatic exchanges in the system and there is now adequate spare capacity at all but a handful of them. These latter will be extended this year. The capacity of all exchanges is reviewed regularly in the light of actual and prospective development with a view to ensuring that additional equipment will be ordered and installed in advance of requirements. For various reasons delays sometimes occur, but generally the picture is satisfactory.

Good progress has been made with the provision of service for new subscribers and with the clearance of the waiting list. At the end of April this year the waiting list, excluding some 2,900 cases in course of installation, was down to 7,000, and preliminary arrangements were in train for provision of service for 1,750 of these. Connections during 1966 totalled 13,245, and would have been much higher but for unusual labour difficulties encountered during the early part of the year. Connections for the financial year 1966-67 totalled 15,528, the highest figure ever reached in any 12 month period.

The target for the current financial year is 18,000. Given freedom from exceptionally bad weather and from other abnormal difficulties, the target should be achieved. I am confident that even with rising demand, it will be possible to make a further significant reduction in the waiting list this year. This is very real progress. Indeed, the figures in themselves do not give the full picture, as connections last year included a large number of long line cases which had been deferred repeatedly owing to their high work content and the need to give precedence to improvement of the trunk network. Already service has been offered to all but about 100 of pre-1966 applicants in the provinces. Those still waiting will be offered service during the coming months. By the end of this financial year it is hoped to have offered service to virtually all pre-1967 cases. We will then be dealing only with relatively recent applications, a position we have not been in for several years. The back of the waiting list will have been broken therefore and this will be a relief to everyone, not least to my Department.

When I took charge of the Department, I was fully aware that the standard of service to subscribers was far from satisfactory and I have been examining the faulty dialling analyses for the different exchanges. The results showed a noticeable improvement in many exchanges in the last 12 months but a very specific need for great improvement.

The poor service experienced by many subscribers is due to the difficulties arising in providing telephone service on an enormously expanded demand basis. The greatest single problem is in connection with recruitment of staff and their training in the special skills necessary for the maintenance of the latest equipment and the linking of old and new exchange apparatus in the city area.

Delays in answering during peak periods are not yet solved but I hope will be dealt with in the future. The percentage of calls connected immediately or within five minutes in a recent peak period was 94.4 but this standard is not adequate. In certain areas where delays are exceptionally long at peak periods, new equipment will be provided.

The standard of subscriber trunk dialling is still extremely inadequate from certain exchanges but is improving. I have given instructions to the officers that the improvement of the existing service to subscribers is number one priority together with connection of new subscribers to whom the telephone is a vital necessity for essential services and business communication. Installation depends on a continuous five-year programme of circuit and exchange installation and it should be observed that for many types of equipment five years are required from designing to commissioning stage as in the case of the ESB.

Major extensions of equipment usually require new sites and buildings and the provision of these and the manufacture and installation of the equipment are always a slow business which calls for a high standard of advance planning and co-ordination. This long-term planning which is constantly proceeding is not, of course, confined to equipment. It is equally necessary to build up the force of skilled men engaged in installation and maintenance work, and this involves academic and field training over a long period.

As a result of the growth in the telephone network over the years, additional skilled staff are naturally required to attend to its maintenance. More skilled staff are needed too to meet the higher installation rate for telephones and equipment generally. The Department has been aware that it would have to face these increased staffing demands and it took action some years ago to ensure as far as possible that qualified staff would be available in the required numbers. The Department has to train all its own skilled workman staff as there is no pool of skilled staff from which it can draw.

The intake of technician trainees, the main recruitment grade for skilled workman staff, which had been increased from 25 to 50 in 1960 was again doubled to 100 in 1963 when it became possible for the vocational schools to provide the necessary academic training facilities for the additional numbers required. The intake has been maintained at almost 100 a year since then and there are now close on 400 youths in training for the more highly skilled work involved in the installation and maintenance of the telecommunications services. The training of this staff naturally takes time, the training course being approximately a four year one. The course involves full-time attendance for about three months in each of three years at special classes provided by selected vocational schools, full-time attendance at training courses provided by the Department and, of course, training on the job. I am glad to say that we have had very full co-operation from the vocational schools concerned in making available the special courses required.

The training both at the Departmental courses and on the job has, naturally, taken somewhat over the years from the effort in installing more telephones but it was of course vital to direct the necessary stall effort into the training of these youths if the telecommunications system was to be maintained adequately. The effort put into this training will begin to pay dividends from this year onwards when the first group of the increased intake of 100 a year completes its initial training, and with a regular flow of about 100 a year becoming available each year from now on problems resulting from staff shortages should ease considerably, with overall benefit to the standard of service.

I should make it clear that the character of service varies from exchange to exchange. The North European target of subscriber service is that faulty dialling on local calls must not exceed 1½ per cent of all calls and subscriber trunk dialled three per cent. We are not in that category but approaching it in many areas and in some large exchanges. I am determined that our standard will be at the highest level. This is not a question of staff ineffectiveness but of better organisation and training for which we have already had the benefit of recommendations by two consultants in the last ten years.

And now to mention some of the development works that will come to fruition in the near future. For the trunk service a great deal of important work is in the pipeline. A contract has been placed for new radio link routes to Britain, and between Dublin, Portlaoise, Athlone and Cork. These links will have an ultimate capacity of 960 circuits each and as well as increasing capacity they will be most valuable as alternative routes in the event of break-downs. Contracts have also been placed for new underground or aerial co-axial cables between the following places:—

Athlone - Castlerea - Claremorris -Castlebar-Ballina.

Arklow-Gorey-Enniscorthy.

Cahirciveen-Killorglin.

Dundalk-Castleblayney.

Castleblayney-Monaghan.

Cavan-Mullingar.

Ennis-Ennistymon.

Ennis-Kilrush.

Letterkenny-Dungloe.

Waterford-Dungarvan.

Carrier equipment for the expansion of a number of existing underground cables is also on order. When these orders are completed, and most of them are expected to mature within three years, the trunk system of the country will be sound in all areas. These schemes together with what has been achieved in recent years will lay the foundations for an excellent telephone system, which will be far better placed to meet the challenges of the future than it was to meet those of the past.

A contract covering replacement of 100 manual exchanges has been placed to continue the automation programme. This contract will overlap earlier orders and will take about three years to complete. Preparation for the next stage of the programme, which will include some 260 exchanges, is in hands.

The capital development programme planned for 1967-68 is estimated to cost £6.9 million compared with approximately £5.75 million paid in 1966-67, an increase of £1.15 million. Of this £6.9 million nearly 30 per cent is for trunk circuit development, over 25 per cent for local underground cabling, nearly 25 per cent for connection of new subscribers, and the balance of 20 per cent approximately is in respect of the current auto conversion programme, the extension of automatic and manual exchanges, provision of buildings and satellite telecommunications development.

Contracts have been placed for equipment for a new automatic exchange at Rochestown Avenue in Dublin, for new automatic exchanges at Cobh and Swords to replace the existing ones, and for very substantial extensions and replacements at Crown Alley and Clontarf exchanges.

A significant development on the international front recently was the introduction of a station-to-station service to the United States accompanied by a substantial reduction in charges. Traffic with the United States is increasing rapidly. At the moment we have six circuits to New York, four in transatlantic cables and two through the satellite. We plan to bring further circuits into service this year. We are also studying the question of providing direct circuits to certain European countries with which traffic has been rising rapidly. The most significant development internationally, of course, would be the introduction of subscriber dialling but until the new route to Britain is brought into service there will not be sufficient circuits available to enable this facility to be introduced to Britain and further afield.

So far as the telephone service is concerned, the verdict must be that substantial progress has been achieved in the past 12 to 15 months. I hope to report equally good progress next year but it must be realised that it will be some time yet before we are fully out of the wood. The importance of a rapid and reliable telephone service to the efficient conduct of business and to the economic and social life of the country is fully recognised, and no effort will be spared to achieve the desired standard.

Deposits in the Post Office Saving Bank amounted to £25.8 million during 1966 and withdrawals to £27.8 million. At 31st December, 1966, the total balance due to depositors, including interest, was approximately £110.6 million as compared with £109.9 million at the end of the previous year.

Deposits and withdrawals by the Trustee Saving Banks during the year amounted to £1.44 million and £1.45 million respectively, and the total amount, including interest, to the credit of the Trustee Banks at the end of the year, was £19.94 million, an increase of £0.57 million over the previous year.

The rate of interest payable on deposits in the Post Office Saving Bank and Trustee Saving Banks was increased from 2½ per cent to 3½ per cent per annum as from 1st January, 1967, and the amount of annual interest which is exempt from income tax and surtax raised from £50 to £70. It is possible to have up to £2,000 on deposit with interest free of tax, and up to double that amount in the case of a husband and wife. On deposits which qualify for the tax exemption, the gross yield is over 5? per cent per annum to an income tax payer.

Sales of saving certificates for 1966 amounted to £11.9 million and repayments, including interest, amounted to £7.7 million. The principal remaining invested at the end of the year was £41.6 million as compared with £35.7 million last year.

The seventh issue of saving certificates was placed on sale as from 14th March, 1966. The compound interest rate over the eight years to maturity of the new certificates averages 5¼ per cent per annum. As the interest is exempt from income tax and surtax, the gross yield is 8 per cent per annum to an income tax payer.

I should like to join with the Minister for Finance in paying a tribute to the excellent work in promoting small savings done by the National Savings Committee.

In 1966, the Department's remittance services transmitted an abnormal volume of funds, mainly because of the bank strike last summer. The total value of money orders issued amounted to £47.8 million as compared with £20.4 million in 1965, and postal orders issued amounted to £8.8 million as compared with £7.5 million in 1965.

Agency service payments, mainly for the Department of Social Welfare, went up from £42 million to £47 million. As usual, post offices took part in the half-yearly sales of Prize Bonds, handling about 30 per cent of the total collected.

During the past year three major building schemes were completed, namely, a new trunk telephone exchange at Dame Court, Dublin, an auto-manual exchange at Tralee and the new sorting office at Sheriff Street, Dublin. In addition, 59 rural automatic exchanges were erected, a major extension was made to Mullingar telephone exchange and improvements were carried out at Greystones (Wicklow) and Blackrock (Dublin) post offices.

Work is nearing completion on additional office accommodation at Distillery Road (Dublin) engineering premises, on new telephone exchanges at Gorey and at Swords and on extensions to Dennehy's Cross (Cork) and Walkinstown (Dublin) exchanges, Improvement schemes at Tuam and West-port post offices will also be finished shortly.

Other constructional works in progress include extensive new warehouses at St. John's Road Stores Depot, a new post office and engineering centre at Carlow, a new telephone exchange and engineering accommodation at Fermoy, a new telephone exchange at Killarney, an extension to the repeater station at Portlaoise, and 43 rural automatic exchange buildings.

The number of staff provided for in this year's Estimates—18,880—shows a small reduction of 43 on last year's figure. The main decreases are 164 in telephone operating staff and 59 in postal staff but these are partially offset by an increase of about 200 in engineering force.

I am happy to report that the technician trainee scheme continues to be successful. Last year we recruited 93 trainees, and this year we propose to recruit much the same number.

Having had experience of the Department's operations in the years 1951-54, I have decided that the time is opportune to examine the entire organisation of the telephone service to ascertain what fundamental changes may be required as a result of the explosive expansion in the last seven years.

Under my predecessor's guidance, an exhaustive review of the organisation, grading and methods of work at the sub-professional level in the Department's Engineering Branch, has been in progress for the last year. This review is being carried out by a firm of industrial consultants. After reading their report, I have concluded that this is too narrow a field for investigation. Management structure, the effect of Civil Service procedures in a commercial organisation, cost benefit analysis, cost accountancy in relation to productivity and training are all involved. In fact, I think there are fundamental issues at stake which relate to the comparison between a commercial telephone system as in the United States, state company operation and our form of administration.

Taking one year with another there is no reason why the telephone system should not include the present non-profitable element of social service while making an overall profit. There is, therefore, no question of changing the present character of service in order to save costs. The investigation now in progress will proceed on the basis that changes in methods, the growth of productivity and all the conditions attached to them must be acceptable to the staff. Changes in methods will in fact lead to more effective work carried out to the advantage of the staff who will experience the satisfaction of greater productivity—which in effect means more effective work—greater satisfaction in work performed making greater reward.

The postal service, while capable of improvement, is not associated with complex procedures such as are involved in the installation and maintenance of telephones.

I should say that the officers of the Department have been meeting a flood of demands for service. Credit restriction has had the inevitable effect of frustrating the more methodical approach to expansion on the basis of a five year plan which is obligatory in the case of the ESB but no less essential to telephone development.

The Department has, of course, its own full-time organisation and methods staff which continues to effect improvements and economies in the clerical field. Moreover labour-saving schemes such as the motorisation of mail delivery and automatisation of the telephone service are in progress all the time. In all these ways it is hoped to ease the impact of the rising costs of providing our services.

My predecessor was able to introduce wider delegated powers for the Department with the agreement of the Minister for Finance in 1963. This was a step on the way to modern procedures.

I have recently set up a Departmental study group to inquire into the matter generally; they may require the help of consultants. The Civil Service group who will be examining the higher organisation of the service as a whole will find when they reach my Department that investigation into some aspects of the problem in the Post Office is already taking place.

The Department continues to participate in the activities of the Universal Postal Union and the International Telecommunications Union, the international organisations which concern themselves with postal and telecommunications matters. At a recent meeting a senior official of my Department was elected Chairman of the Administrative Council of the International Telecommunications Union. This is the first time this important office has been held by an Irish official.

Before leaving staffing matters, I should like to take this opportunity of thanking publicly all the staff of the Department for their efforts during the year.

The commercial accounts for 1965-66 have been laid before the House. A summary of the results for that year and for the four preceding years is given in Appendix C to the Estimate.

As Deputies are aware, the commercial accounts present the position of the Department as a trading concern. They are compiled in accordance with commercial practice to show the expenditure incurred and the income earned during the year of account, such charges as interest and depreciation being included in the expenditure. A balance sheet and statement of assets gives details of the Department's very large capital investments, mainly in telephone plant. The accounts are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

It is on the basis of the trading results of the Department that we determine financial policy, including the fixing of charges. The basic principle of that policy is that the Post Office should pay its way, taking one year with another. That means that the Department must earn a surplus in good years to meet the losses in bad years and to provide a reserve against contingencies. If the Post Office does not pay its way, the loss has to be made good by taxpayers generally.

I should perhaps say that there are real difficulties in adhering to that apparently simple basic principle. About 60 per cent of the Department's expenditure is on wages, salaries and related payments for travelling, subsistence, superannuation, and so on. Such costs tend to rise steadily, and they press particularly on the postal service. As Deputies are aware, that service is a labour-intensive one, employing comparatively little machinery or other capital equipment. The nature of the mails, which consist of a huge volume of small low-priced items requiring individual treatment, and of the systems of collection and delivery, limits the opportunities for mechanisation or for other methods of increasing the productivity of the large labour force employed.

Mail business expands slowly and, in any case, the individual treatment of items that is necessary does not permit much economy of scale. The steady growth of cities and towns, which has been a feature of recent years, has required us to provide additional offices and collection and delivery services, for the outlying areas. On the other hand, the scope for savings in areas where population is declining is slight, because in effect, our services have to be provided on a territorial rather than a population basis. While efforts are being made to achieve greater productivity, with success in some directions, the over-all financial position of the postal service is such that any substantial increase in costs faces us with the choices of increasing charges, or drastically reducing services, or incurring a deficit, to be made good by the other services, or by the general taxpayer. As Deputies can see from Appendix C, only once in the past five years has the postal service avoided a deficit. The telegraph service has never paid its way and, despite many economics and re-organisations of the service, it is still incurring a substantial deficit, though one comparatively less than in the past.

The current position is that there was an over-all surplus on the Department's services in 1965-66 of £341,000 approximately, compared with a deficit of £67,000 approximately in the previous year. In both years there was a deficit on the telegraph service and a surplus on the telephone service, while the postal service showed a surplus of £39,000 in 1965-66 as against a deficit of £145,000 in 1964-65. Final figures for last year are not yet available but the indications are that, mainly because of pay increases, there will be an overall deficit, probably of the order of £200,000-£300,000 on a total expenditure of nearly £21½ million. I would expect that in the current year that deficit would be wiped out if costs do not rise substantially above their present level. That is, however, a most important qualification, and it is obvious that the finances of the Department will need to be watched very closely.

I propose to follow the example of my predecessors by confining my remarks about Radio Telefís Éireann to the more important matters concerning the Authority's development and to those in which, as Minister. I have a statutory function. As there was a full debate on RTE affairs on the Estimate for Posts and Telegraphs last October, I shall not deal with happenings before then.

After deducting the costs of licence collection, a sum of about £630,000 is being provided for sound broadcasting in 1967-68 and the balance £1,170,000 is for the television service. These figures take into account that £1 5s out of each £5 licence is intended for the sound broadcasting service. The amount being provided for sound broadcasting plus sound advertising revenue will not be sufficient to meet the expenditure on that service in 1967-68 and the deficit must be made good out of the Authority's general revenue.

It will be recalled that the Authority had an overall surplus of £373,000 in 1964-65 and that this was reduced to £273,000 in the following year, when a surplus of £492,000 on television was partly offset by a deficit of £219,000 on sound radio.

The accounts for 1966-67 will not be available for some time, but I understand that they will show a further substantial reduction in the overall surplus as a result of an increased deficit on sound and a reduced surplus on television. The Authority see little hope of this trend being arrested because costs are still increasing, whereas receipts from licences and from advertisements are becoming less buoyant. Indeed, the Authority considers that there is every likelihood of a substantial over-all deficit on current account in 1968-69, unless licence fees and television advertising rates are increased in the meantime.

Largely as a result of the operating surpluses it has made in recent years, the Authority has not had to seek any repayable advances from the Exchequer for capital purposes since February, 1964. Before then, it had drawn £1,816,000 from the Exchequer in repayable advances. None of these advances has so far been repaid but the Authority is, of course, paying interest on them. All its capital expenditure in the past three years, amounting to about £1,300,000, has been financed from its own resources, that is, depreciation provisions and surpluses. This money has been laid out on essential commitments, for example, on the building extension at Donnybrook, on the provision of VHF radio transmitters, low-power television satellite transmitters and technical equipment. When fixing the public capital programme for the current year, the Government decided that the Authority may spend up to £500,000 on various capital projects on condition that the expenditure is financed from its own resources. The money is mainly intended to cover further payments on the Donnybrook building extension and to provide an additional outside broadcasting unit and general broadcasting equipment.

The Authority foresees that over the next eight years an expenditure of almost £4½ million will be needed for various capital items, excluding renewals and replacements. It has yet to be decided how much of this programme will be undertaken and how it is to be financed.

When the previous Estimate for my Department was before the House last October only three of the five main VHF transmitters were in operation, namely, Maghera and Mullaghanish which had commenced on 24th July, 1966, followed by Truskmore on 4th September, 1966. Mount Leinster began to transmit on VHF on 30th October, 1966, and Kippure on 4th December, 1966. Four satellite transmitters have yet to be provided, namely, at Moville, Fanad, Castle-town-Berehaven and Cahirciveen. These will be brought into operation as soon as practicable and VHF reception will then be available to 99 per cent of the country.

I have received complaints from Deputies and others regarding unsatisfactory television reception in certain areas. The Authority is aware that although 13 transposers have been erected to extend the area of coverage of the main TV transmitters, reception is still not satisfactory in many small areas comprising about two per cent of the country. Plans are being worked out for the coverage of some of the more populous of these pockets. I understand that it will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to give completely satisfactory coverage in all of them. Disproportionately heavy capital expenditure would be involved in filling in many of them and I cannot say, at present, how far money will be available for further transposers. I also know that technical difficulties connected with some of the present transposers have resulted in an unusual number of service interruptions and that the Authority's technical staff are doing everything possible to improve the reliability of reception in the areas concerned.

I mentioned already the Authority's worsening financial position and the possibility that it may be necessary before long to increase broadcasting licence fees. In this connection I am advised that there is considerable evasion of payment of such fees. My Department intends to carry out another big drive against holders of unlicensed sets. It is also considering the question of introducing fresh legislation to help to deal with this problem. For example, the present fines which the District Courts can impose in cases of unlicensed television sets are no deterrent to those who do not mind being prosecuted, but it might be a different story if the courts had authority to impose substantial penalties. Another matter being examined is whether radio and television dealers and rental companies should be required by law to notify my Department of the names and addresses of customers who buy or rent sets from them.

The House may wish to be given some basic information on the Radio Telefís Éireann service. At 30th April, 1967, there were 215,037 sound and 316,738 combined sound and television licences. It is estimated that about 50 per cent of dwellings are television-equipped. The proportion of home produced programme services in the TV service is about 53 per cent. In both the TV and the sound service about 18 per cent of the programme can be considered as instructive or educational in general.

In the course of a reply to a Parliamentary question on 25th October, 1966, my predecessor said that the Department was considering the heads of a Bill to deal with the problem of pirate broadcasting from ships outside national territories. Since then, the Government have authorised the drafting of the Bill and it will come before the House in due course. The measure will make it possible for Ireland to ratify the Council of Europe Agreement on the subject. Under it, the establishment or operation of broadcasting stations of these kinds and acts of collaboration knowingly performed will be punishable offences.

Before I go through the various items in the Estimate. I should like to say, lest I forget, that I would not like the proposal the Minister mentioned as to his Department requiring radio and television dealers and rental companies to notify the Department of the names and addresses of customers who buy or rent sets. I would express a most emphatic "no" to that. There are many reasons for that. A voice behind me has just said "informers" and that is one reason. It would be turning the shopkeepers into unpaid agents of the Government and it would be an unfair burden to place on them. The Minister and his Department should take into account the fact that a customer comes into a shop and purchases a set, and if as a result of that, somebody comes around and collects from him, there would be pressure exerted by the purchaser on the next occasion on which he buys something from that shopkeeper. There would be pressure exerted to secure that somehow he should try to evade the law.

I know that sounds as if the general public are dishonest and they are not dishonest. It would be putting an onus on the individual shopkeeper and it would tend to turn the customer into a sort of tricky person who would ask the shopkeeper to evade the law and hold over his head the possibility that he would lose his custom, and certainly his future custom, if by any chance an inspector called or the Department took whatever steps they would be taking to ensure that the licence was paid. I suggest to the Minister that the scheme would turn out to be unworkable and might place a premium on dishonesty.

It is done with motor cars, as the Deputy knows.

Yes, but a motor car can be seen. I agree that prima facie there seems to be a similarity between the two but really there is not. A motor car can be seen by a whole lot of people; it has to carry number plates and a licence in full view of everybody. Where perhaps a small set goes into a house, has no aerial, and perhaps never leaves the bedroom, it might be known that there could only have been one source from which the information reached the Department. It is a small point but the Minister and his Department should be very loth to introduce such a scheme.

Suppose a man purchased a set and gave it as a present to somebody, where would he stand in regard to the law? Has he to divulge the information?

That is another point. In the last paragraph of his speech, the Minister said that a Bill was being introduced to deal with pirate broadcasting from ships. The Minister will have the full support of this side of the House for any such Bill. It is completely wrong that a country like ours which enters into international agreements and honours them should have its territorial waters made a nuisance to other countries and, indeed, to our own citizens. It would be wrong for us not to take the most vigorous steps to deal in whatever way we can with such a menace. Further, I imagine that the type of programme which comes from these pirate ships is of a very, shall I say, meretricious type. I would imagine that plays, if they broadcast them, or music, would not be of a very high quality and certainly that there would not be much of an educational content in the programmes.

I am glad that there has been an increase in the capital expenditure in relation to the installation of telephones. Unfortunately there is still the melancholy picture that existed last year of installations being in arrears. However, I congratulate the Department on their progress in dealing with the backlog of telephone installations. It would be easier for me to criticise the Minister on the 7,000 installations that still remain to be dealt with rather than to say that the figure has come down from something like 13,200. That is a noteworthy advance and shows that the Department is in the forefront of modern progress. I know that that is poor consolation to people—I have lists of them here—in places like South Tipperary and West Waterford where there are 230 awaiting installation, or in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, where there are something like 720, or in Kilkenny, where there are 190 or in Wexford where there are 300, or in Mayo-Sligo, where there are 105 or Galway city where there are 315. Those are just figures taken at random from replies given by the Minister to Parliamentary questions. They are poor consolation to those who are still waiting but these people can at least see that the queue is moving faster than it did. Last year I urged on the Minister's predecessor the vital necessity of taking every step to increase telephone facilities because the telephone is a necessary adjunct of modern business. It is impossible to carry on business today without adequate telephone facilities.

I understood the Minister to say that facilities at telephone exchanges are improving. I do not know: there is one telephone exchange that I know intimately and it has not made any marked advance. I shall not mention where it is but it is one of the worst in the country. There may have been a slight improvement but nothing much. Improvement in other parts of the country has taken place. Trunk facilities seem to be much improved. There was a time when you dialled trunks and by the time a voice answered you were in such a rage that you almost told them where to go rather than give them the required number.

You thought they had gone to the Zoo.

That has changed. Many people have told me that they have found telephone operators very courteous and attentive. That has been my personal experience and they certainly did not know that a Deputy of Dáil Éireann was at the other end. I have always found them extremely courteous.

A couple of years ago we suffered a strike of night telephonists which made things very difficult. The Minister gave figures for the number of temporary night telephonists and, from memory, it was something like 175. It would be a good thing if that temporary type of work were discontinued. I know it is of considerable benefit to certain young men to be able to get night work as telephonists to augment their incomes and perhaps help them through university or enable them to acquire some other training but it introduces an element of uncertainty and detracts from telephone work as a wholetime job and a worthwhile career. I urge the Minister and the Department to discontinue temporary night telephonists' work. It is not in the interest of the public or the Department and it is probably not to the long-term advantage of the young people concerned. In this age we do not like blind-alley jobs and this is something of that character and good for nobody.

The Minister referred to increases in services but did not say he was in favour of increases—I do not want to put words into his mouth—but I think if he and his Department are contemplating increases in capital expenditure, I would urge him to remember the very high charges the Post Office is making at present. In the last five years telephone rental charges have increased by 60 per cent for residents' lines and by amounts varying from 40 to 60 per cent in the case of business lines. This is a very steep increase. I do not say it was not justified in many cases but it is a heavy burden especially for industry where it is not a case of a few odd calls per day but of calls amounting to many thousands in individual cases during the year. An increase of some 40 per cent for one line and more where there is a second one is a very heavy burden for industry and tends to put up the cost of living considerably.

I have been going over the questions raised with the Minister and with his predecessor during the year and again and again one finds that the question of advance rental charges has evoked adverse comment. In one reply, the Minister referred to 50 people in, I think, Tipperary and West Waterford. Other figures were given but I am taking these, where 50 people paid £1,400, an average of £28 per head, in advance. That is a heavy amount to pay. I had a case of a young person who wrote to me recently. This person was asked to pay, as far as I can remember, something like £30, a flatdweller. I know flatdwellers are not quite the same as property owners because they can leave, and do leave, pretty frequently. Despite this, I think the Department are being too harsh on individuals. The amount of money they would lose by not looking for the advance rental would be very slight in comparison with the inconvenience caused by the installation not being put in.

I would put this aspect of those cases before the Minister. If an installation is refused, it is not only a great inconvenience to the individual concerned but it is also an inconvenience to all other subscribers because the more subscribers there are, the more useful the telephone service becomes. Nowadays when the telephone directory is doubling itself in size every few years, one realises how increasingly useful the telephone is. I would put that aspect of this problem before the Minister. Not all the people who are asked for money in advance would necessarily default in their payments. I am sure the Minister would find that the proportion likely to default would be very small.

I should like to refer to the Symphony Orchestra, television and sound broadcasting. Both television and radio do a very good job. In fact, they do a very fine job within the limits of the money we have to spend. When one compares our television service with other television services which have immeasurably greater funds, one comes to the conclusion that our people are doing a very good job with the money they receive. It is infinitesimal compared with what many of the great nations give to their television and radio services. Our people are extremely good in that respect.

For many years all of us have been very proud of the orchestra. I will not again go over—I notice the Minister did not refer to it—the unfortunate position concerning the dismissal of the conductor of the Symphony Orchestra, Mr. Tibor Paul. That was a very unfortunate matter which was handled very badly. While regretting that this should have happened and that Mr. Paul should be leaving us, and wishing him well in whatever position he will hold elsewhere in the future—he carries with him the goodwill of the Irish people for having conducted the orchestra so ably for a number of years —we must now turn towards the future. I am glad to see the appointment as musical director of a musician of the eminence of Mr. Gerald Victory. It is a wise move to separate the position of musical director and conductor in the future. Mr. Victory, as I said, is an eminent musician and composer and the musical direction and advice he will give will be of considerable benefit to the orchestra and to music on both sound and television.

I should like to see more of the Symphony Orchestra on television. I do not seem to see very much of it. I go to all the concerts I can get to but I do not see many studio television performances. I think it is more often on Radio Éireann than on Telefís Éireann. We could see more of it on Telefís Éireann. It is certainly very photogenic. It is a great orchestra and it can be really interesting to look at, apart from being very pleasing to listen to. I should certainly like to see more of it on television.

Last year I echoed the plea of the Feis Ceoil regarding more musicians on Radio Telefís Éireann Authority. I certainly should like to see that. When vacancies occur, I should like the Minister to bear in mind that music is one of the great arts that can be disseminated through broadcasting and television. The Minister did not mention anything about the successor to Mr. Tibor Paul for the Symphony Orchestra. I do not know whether, in his concluding speech, he will enlighten us on that. The public are very interested to know what is going to take place, now that there is a vacancy in the conductorship of the Symphony Orchestra.

There is a further matter to which I referred last October, a report published by the Research and Technological Survey team appointed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in November, 1963, in association with OECD, Volume No. 1 of the main Report entitled Science and Irish Economic Development. It said that the level of technology is low in some post offices, particularly in many urban areas where the load factor is highest. The Minister referred to the fact that he was conscious of the necessity for modernisation, if you like to put it that way, for keeping the efficiency of the Post Office at the highest pitch. I trust that by that the technological level is being taken into account. Certainly some of our older post offices would not impress anybody with any great degree of technological efficiency. I know of one post office in the city of Dublin where you post outside in a box on the street. Some months ago I was posting a letter at 6 o'clock and I had the greatest difficulty in getting a letter into the post box. It was already so full——

Was it 6 o'clock in the morning?

No, it was 6 o'clock in the evening. It was so full that I was afraid some passerby might come and take my letter out. There was nothing of any value in it. But that is the level of technological efficiency that one feels could be simply improved. That is a post office in the centre of the city here. Granted it is only a little place, but that sort of thing should be gone into. I would say that the arrival of a clerk with a few dozen, not to say a few hundred, letters would have burst the whole arrangement. I do not know how he would have got rid of the letters.

I hope the Minister will continue the policy of improving the efficiency of the whole postal service because we are living in an age in which efficiency in communications is vital. Communications are vital to industry and the country, especially now that links with the Continent are getting closer and closer. Even if we do not get into the Common Market, immediately or in the near future, there is a breaking down of tariffs all round. We know of the success in the drop in tariffs under the Kennedy plan. That means increased trade with other countries, telegraphic and telephonic, as well as the more ordinary and mundane letter service.

The Department of Posts and Telegraphs is one of the most important and greatest Departments of State and it is one which can play a vital role in helping this country to expand commercially and, indeed, agriculturally. I wish the Minister success in his work now that he is back again in his previous job. I hope that these technical advances will be watched more closely and that there will be no question of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs being a sort of cinderella of the Departments of State. It is not a cinderella, but one of the most important Departments we have and one which is the handmaiden of industry and agriculture in this country.

I agree with the previous speaker in the point he made about the importance of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. It certainly is important and it has played an important role down through the years. It cannot be said that it has become more important since the advent of television. I am inclined to the view that an insufficiency of our people realise that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is the Department responsible for television. Perhaps the time is not overdue for us to change the title of the Department and indicate in a proper way what that Department really represents.

The Minister, I notice, has not a penchant for issuing information when he makes a speech on any Estimate he puts before the House. There is a lot he could have said which he neglected to say and which would have been of great importance to the community. I wonder why the Minister has not made any comment on a number of things, other than the matters on which he has referred.

I noticed that he saw fit to praise the operation of the sub-post offices. This can be said perhaps of a number of sub-post offices but I do not think that it would be right and proper to generalise as the Minister has done. We know from our experience as public representatives that there are good and bad sub-post offices. I am conscious of the fact because I have on a number of occasions complained not only of the services emanating from the sub-post offices but also because of the closing down of a sub-post office. This particular one closed down in a thickly populated area. There is a clear indication that the people concerned were not aware of it because the people who made use of this post office were not told where they could have the services of a temporary sub-post office. The Department did not see fit to refer to it in this way. The people were left to find out for themselves exactly where a substitute was, pending the provision of a new sub-post office. This sort of thing is not good enough, especially in a capital city. One can understand it happening in a remote part of rural Ireland.

The Minister adverted to stamp-vending machines and praised their operation. I know for a fact that in the part of Dublin I represent great fault has been found with the machines and there are persistent complaints about them. However, despite persistent complaints, the faults remain. I do not think we should be too eager to pat ourselves on the back and say that these vending machines are the best imaginable.

The Minister talked about telephone services and services for subscribers. Perhaps there is a considerable reduction in the waiting list of subscribers but there still remains a huge number of people waiting for telephone services. In that connection, I think it is right and proper that the House should realise that a telephone is an essential service. In many cases it is very necessary for people working for their living to have a telephone in their homes. It very often happens that people lose the opportunity of employment because of lack of a telephone or of knowledge that a telephone will be laid on within a reasonable period. The same applies to rental charges, to which Deputy Dockrell has referred. It can be said that some people can afford to put money down in anticipation of getting a telephone, but there are a considerable number for whom the telephone is a necessity who have not got the necessary wherewithal. Even when they do make the deposit, they do not know with any degree of certainty when they will be given the service they are seeking.

The Minister also adverted to savings certificates. He pointed out that the rate of interest had been increased from 2½ per cent to 3½ per cent from 1st January, 1967. If we are to have these savings certificates operating as we would all like to see them operating —more successfully—I submit that the rate of interest will have to be higher. I am mindful of the fact that an opportunity has been given for tax relief to people who invest their money in savings certificates. The type of people we are setting out to induce to save are not the money-class but people with very meagre incomes. That being so, we should be a little more encouraging and improve the existing rate of interest.

There is another aspect of the telephone service I must not forget—and the Minister did not refer to it in his speech—the maintenance of telephones. When I speak of the maintenance of telephones, I am talking in terms of steps being taken to ensure that we have a telephone service, particularly that available from public kiosks. Very often one finds telephone kiosks have been damaged on going into them. This is happening in many parts of the cities in the 26 counties. It is about time we took a closer look at the type of telephone kiosk we are using, the manner in which they are operated and perhaps the way they are looked after, in regard not only to their being exposed to vandalism but to considerations of hygiene. Going into some of our telephone kiosks, one would wonder where one was——

They are used as public lavatories, some of them.

I often wonder is there sufficient staff for the cleaning of our telephone kiosks. It would appear to me that there is a need to employ more people on this type of service and also to ensure that the instrument itself is kept clean. This is, I submit, not only in the interests of our own people but also in the interests of tourism, and I realise the Minister has a great interest in tourism. I would urge him to apply his mind to this problem because undoubtedly it is a serious matter.

Along with that, I would ask him to have another look at the manner of setting up telephone kiosks in built-up areas. Complaints have been made to me in different parts of Dublin about the absence of telephones, particularly in corporation housing areas, where people have to travel long distances at night to telephone for a doctor, or in any other type of emergency. I do not know what the criterion is in the provision of telephone kiosks—whether it is provided for so many hundreds, or thousands— but it is obvious there is a need to have another look at this.

Again I have to go back to the question of the maintenance of the telephone kiosks. They are exposed to vandalism. This, of course, also pinpoints the question of liaison between one Department and another. Surely to heavens we cannot continue to lay it at the doorstep of vandals all the time and do nothing about it?

Another complaint I would make in connection with our telephone service is the delay in making contact, the delay in getting through from one part of the State to another. It is quite true to say that you can get in touch with any part of England much more quickly than you can get through from, say, Kilkee to Dublin and vice versa. Kilkee is not the only place; it applies to many places. This is not only exasperating to a tourist but to everybody, no matter the purpose for which they are using the telephone. It is something which is crying out for attention and about which something will have to be done.

Some few months ago I had occasion to raise in this House the matter of delay in sanctioning contracts in relation to the telephone system. I did so because I had learned that if those contracts were not sanctioned—affecting various telephone exchanges— there was a possibility of people losing their employment. It is my understanding that something has been done in the Department in connection with sanctioning contracts. I also understand there are a number of outstanding contracts. I am informed, furthermore, that it has happened that preference in connection with the supplying of equipment for telephone exchanges has, on more than one occasion, been given to a foreign firm rather than to an Irish firm, despite the fact that the Irish firm employed a considerable number of people.

I was rather intrigued by the point made by the Minister in connection with television licences, when he expressed the view that it might be possible to get people who sell television sets to get the names and addresses of the purchasers and then pass that information on to the Department. Thus, the Department could get after the people with regard to paying their licences. I submit there is another matter crying out for attention, seeing that the Minister is toying with this idea of watching the activities of the people who sell television sets. He ought to make a check and ensure that such people cease to have an opportunity of making money on television licences, or making a profit on television licences. Such people undertake to issue a licence to a purchaser on the "never-never" and charge them interest on it. This is wrong; I am inclined to the view that it is illegal. I would ask the Minister to look into that when he is setting out to ensure that everybody pays his licence.

On this matter of getting people to take out a licence, it is common knowledge, in this city anyhow, that people say: "Pay £5 for what; what is being laid on; what will we get in return?" And there have been many complaints in relation to programmes, et cetera. In that connection, it would be remiss of me if I did not say it is about time something was done in relation to our newscasting to take the emphasis off international news and place it on national news. There has been far too much of this—matters of grave importance to our people which have not been referred to on television. On occasions we see something about events in the world—maybe a panda in the zoo in Moscow or something like that—but we are deprived of seeing something serious that is happening. I would ask the Minister to have a look at this and set about doing something about it.

I do not know what her name is. The same applies to the Batman type of programme. All sorts of thuggery are advocated in those programmes, which I feel are potentially dangerous types of programme. Surely there is another way to satisfy the needs of our people without using all this American canned stuff? I am told it does not work out any cheaper. We know, from reading our newspapers, that children have imitated some of these acts of thuggery with fatal results. The Minister ought to apply his mind to ensuring that a little more emphasis is placed on our Irish culture.

I was disappointed that the Minister did not say a little more about programming in so far as Telefís Éireann is concerned. For example, we are preparing to go into the Common Market. We are making insufficient use of television to get that across and to explain its implications to our people. A little more use could be made of our television service by way of putting on programmes about the trade union movement, and not slanted programmes as very often appears to happen when there is a situation where there is something derogatory to be said about the trade union movement. This is not good enough. I would like to see more discussions taking place on television between employers and trade union representatives, both sides explaining their problems, particularly problems they are concerned with, having regard to our possible entry to the Common Market.

It would be wrong of me if I did not refer to a programme that is about to go off television, "Home Truths". I shall not go into detail in connection with the famous, or infamous, Cork affair and the taking off of that particular programme, but if we are taking off "Home Truths", we are losing a wonderful opportunity of assisting our people in the way to go through life. As I understand it, one of the main ideas behind "Home Truths" was to afford the people an opportunity of economising, particularly housewives. That is a good job, a good thing to do. There cannot be enough of it and it is disappointing to find that this programme has only a few weeks to run and will possibly be replaced by some American canned programme.

I have had people complain to me about another aspect of television: that they appear to put on all their good programmes on the one night. This indicates to me the need for a little more concentration on programming.

I know the people who work in television are all doing a reasonably good job and would perhaps do a better job if they were allowed to do it, if they were not interfered with as they have been. There are a considerable number of people employed in television who have tremendous ability and a number of people have left television because they could see no prospect of going up the ladder. A number of people came into television from outside the country, despite the fact that there were a number of Irish nationals offering themselves for employment. I shall not go into the Tibor Paul episode in any great detail except to say that it was unfortunate. What happened clearly indicated that we certainly did not handle the matter sufficiently well and made it appear as if we were a very ill-mannered set of people. In saying that, I am allowing for the fact that Tibor Paul was not the easiest man in the world to get on with. I am aware of the fact that Tibor Paul and people like him, foreigners, who came into Telefís Éireann, received greater facilities by far than any Irish national who worked in television. I am also conscious of the fact that many good Irish musicians left this country and only won recognition outside this country. In saying that, I am pleased to see that there have been changes within the past 12 months in television. The appointment of Michael Garvey and the recent appointment of Mr. Victory are very encouraging.

In the recent Budget, the Minister for Finance saw fit to bring relief to old age pensioners by way of free travel on buses. I do not think it would cost the Department very much if they extended this relief to old age pensioners who have radio sets or television sets and not charge them for a licence. It has happened in recent months that old age pensioners have been brought to court for not having TV licences. I know the law is there but an old age pensioner can be given a present of a radio or television set or can win one and not have the wherewithal to pay for a licence. If people do not have a licence, they will be prosecuted, as has happened. I would ask the Minister to give consideration to relieving old age pensioners from having to pay for licences. It will not cost very much.

I would also ask the Minister to have another look at the matter of programming, in particular children's programmes, and also with a view to ensuring that we get fewer American canned programmes and more live Irish programmes of all kinds.

Finally, the Minister should have said that there will be a change of policy in so far as his Government are concerned in the matter of interfering with the operation of Telefís Éireann. We must bear in mind that the television is the most modern way of getting to the public. It is absolutely wrong for any person to set about regarding it as his own. It is important for everyone that our television be left unspancelled, and that we cease having this practice of a Minister having a whim, picking up the telephone, and objecting to this or that type of programme, or a particular activity on the part of Telefís Éireann. In saying that, I am conscious of the fact that I am asking the Minister to have a look at the programmes on Telefís Éireann. I believe it would be a simple matter for the Minister to get a group of people together, representative of all shades of opinion, to do something in that connection. I urge the Minister to desist and to advise his colleagues to desist from this hideous practice of interfering with the running of Telefís Éireann by picking up the telephone when they feel like doing so.

I do not propose to delay the House very long with my contribution this evening. However, I should like to say that I have not any great criticism to make of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and its various branches during the year. I have found the Minister and the staff down to the postmen helpful and courteous, and I have received no complaints from the electorate about them. The staff are courteous and helpful in every way. The postal and telephone services staffs are helpful, too.

One of the problems I should like to mention here is that of the rural postmen. In our villages and towns, we have this medium of employment for people with small incomes, and for small farmers. There is a programme of motorisation going on at present. If economies are to be effected, and if there is to be an improvement in the service. I am all for it, but frankly at times I feel that economies are not being made and that the service does not improve to any appreciable extent. These people get small salaries for part-time work. They are not workmen in the ordinary sense. They are part-time postmen to supplement whatever meagre means they have. Unless there is a real saving and an improvement in the service, I would ask the Minister not to proceed with that programme just for the sake of getting rid of part-time men.

Usually when an office is motorised, so far as I can ascertain, two part-time men are let off and one full-time man is employed. In addition, there is the cost of providing a van and maintaining it. There is also the question of a salary for this man. So far as I can ascertain, it is twice, if not more than that, the salary which the ordinary man is earning. While I am a great believer in full-time employment for all workers, there is this problem in the rural areas. A small farmer, or a part-time worker, or a person who is handicapped in one way or another, finds this a useful source of income. I, too, have sympathy with him and I should like to know that he is being considered from the social aspect, or even the humane aspect.

Generally, I am pleased to find that the offices of the Department are well maintained and kept neat and tidy. By and large, the positioning of the telephone boxes is fairly good and I have no complaints about that. I would suggest that now that we are considering taking our part in European affairs, we might also adopt the European international symbol for post offices, with a distinctive colour of our own. With the development of tourism, tourists to our country would be able to see from the colouring and the symbol where the post offices and the postal services are. If you are travelling abroad, you immediately notice the man and the horn, the international symbol. This could usefully be adopted. It would also be helpful in removing the remnants of the old boxes which are still lying around. The colouring could be more distinctive than the present one. I know we are using our national colour, green, but with more or less everything painted green, the post offices are not distinctive unless they are built of red brick or some such coloured material. I should like consideration to be given to that aspect.

By and large, the telephone service is good. I should like to say it was very good. The automatic section is reasonably fast, but in the areas which are not serviced automatically, it is different. One still finds it difficult to have a clear conversation, and there are many interruptions and noise of an unbelievable description. It is most difficult to get a clear line. I asked questions about this before, and I was told it is a matter of getting modern up-to-date equipment to obviate these noises. I know that the capital moneys being spent on the telephone service are high, and I am glad of that. Not only do we need a good, clear, fast telephone service, but there is a growing demand for it. That demand is far ahead of the provision being made to make telephones available to the numbers of people who need them.

Telephones today are commonplace to most people. They are needed in the most remote areas. Of course, in a very short time, remote areas in Ireland will be rare indeed, because most of them have a tourist potential. Most of them have attractions which invite visitors, and as tourists and visitors and others go into these areas, naturally they will need the telephone service to keep them in touch with the outside world.

I would ask the Minister to prevail on his colleagues in the Government to make available all the capital they can to get on with the modernisation of our telephone services as quickly as possible. We have a long way to go before we will have an efficient and trouble-free service, through which we can get clear lines and have clear conversations without these weird noises. I hope and pray it will not be long until sufficient money is made available to provide this service. I cannot say that we have the worst telephone service in the world, but I can assure the House that we have far from anything like the best I have come across abroad. Whether from east to west in America, one can get through quickly, get a clear line, and if there is any trouble, a member of the staff will interrupt the connection and quickly clear up the fault. Our cross-Channel service is also excellent but I find it far easier sometimes to telephone London and many other parts of England than to get through to parts of this country, particularly the West.

Deputy Mullen spoke about the condition of some of our public telephone kiosks. Frankly, in most towns, we show a poor lack of civic spirit in this respect. The telephone boxes are in a deplorable condition, people having written their initials and obscene words and slogans. They tear up telephone books and do other damage which reflects badly on our public conduct in the eyes of tourists. Ireland is not alone in this. I ask the Minister to do something to keep the mouthpieces in public phone boxes in a hygienic condition. The odour that sometimes emanates from mouthpieces is, to say the least, nauseating. These are things that must be watched carefully.

The staff in the telephone service are quite good and considerate though occasionally, particularly at night time, one has to wait—without a stopwatch it would be impossible to time it—for considerable periods before getting an answer to a signal, especially for trunk calling. I sometimes get the impression that they leave the telephone there buzzing without taking notice of it. It would be a good thing if this were eradicated. I hope to see the day when we shall have a faster and a more efficient service.

I wonder if the Minister has given any thought to the proposed action of the British Postmaster-General to turn the telephone service over to private enterprise. In many ways it would be a good thing, though, I suppose, it is nice to say it is a State-run service. I understand it is paying, or nearly paying. When one sees the cost, trouble and expense sometimes in getting a telephone installed, one wonders if there is not room for much more efficiency. It can be said that there are lines of demarcation—that certain people must do certain things—but if we are to have an efficient, economic service the trade unions could be and should be asked to co-operate in an effort to get rid of an outmoded system, creating jobs at the expense of the service. There is a degree of feather-bedding. Four men sometimes do a job that could be done by one. In America, where they have such a good service, one man will do an outside job and an inside job efficiently. In America they have this efficient service under private enterprise. Jobs in the telephone service there are keenly sought after because all or practically all the workers are shareholders in the service.

On the question of the Savings Bank, I suggest that the interest rates should be increased. I wonder if the Minister has considered that the 3½ per cent is not very high in present circumstances. The Savings Bank is the repository of small depositors and though I am aware that the cost of such a scheme is high, I suggest that 3½ per cent is much too low. Building societies until recently were offering 4½ per cent, tax paid, and many of them have increased this to 5 per cent. If the Post Office want to increase savings the certain encouragement is by way of increased interest rates. By contrast, we find that the last national loan was issued at 7½ per cent. Land bonds are offered at 7½ per cent also, so why should Savings Bank depositors be restricted to only 3½ per cent?

I come now to Radio Telefís Éireann. It is difficult to see why we should say anything at all in the House about RTE, the Minister seeming to have very little authority in the matter and whatever little he has is on dispensing licence, not control. He merely pays the bill. RTE are the organisation of mass communication for the bringing of programmes to the nation. They seem to be the judges of what the nation needs, the setters of fashion in national tastes. We have to accept what they give us and their decisions as to what they give us, rightly or wrongly, we have to accept. We accept also, of course, that television in general is a powerful medium of propaganda and I submit that this House is not doing its duty in not bringing such an organisation under its control.

Recently we had a recommendation that certain people should travel abroad. We had accusations of interference against the Minister. The Minister and the Government have a responsibility in respect of the type of propaganda emanating from this country. They have rights of interference, a duty to screen programmes, not to wait until the horse is out of the stable, so to speak. If we do not, we, as a Dáil, are doing less than our duty.

I should not like to see RTE used as a medium of attack, be it in news or information form, on the United States of America. There was an element of criticism of the proposed visit to Vietnam.

I saw the programme on North Vietnam filmed by a Polish television team which was shown on Telefís Éireann. One got the impression that North Vietnam was Utopia, but that the people there were suffering terribly at the hands of the barbarian Americans. I think the Minister for External Affairs felt it was right to interfere and stop our team from visiting there because I am quite sure they would be shown the same show pieces and shown how these heroic people were suffering these terrible blows from the aggressive United States. Of course, this is altogether untrue. The United States are there to preserve the rights and freedom of the people of South Vietnam against North Vietnam. Indeed, they are there to preserve the freedom of the whole western world. If we want that freedom to disappear, we could join with all the others asking the Americans to get out and leave it to the Vietnamese themselves. I am not a supporter of that idea.

There are allegations of interference with the presentation of news. If I were to judge by the type of news disseminated by Telefís Éireann, I would question the political motives of some of the people who prepare the news. Certainly it has a political bias. I find it hard to blame any man preparing news. He must be influenced by his outlook, upbringing and background. It is very difficult for an active member of a political organisation to keep such influences out. Consequently, one can see them using their influence to give a colour to the news. I do not think it is terribly bad, but it is very parochial, to say the least of it, and not very enlightening. I cannot say I ever feel very informed by the news on television and I think sound radio gives a better slant to the news.

There were some regrets over the discontinuation of the programme "Home Truths". To a degree it was doing a very good job, but I often wondered were two standards being applied. Recently I was watching a commentator on that programme talking about aspirin tablets and telling the people there was not much difference between the various brands. He told them they could buy them wholesale, and, in fact, suggested that they do so. But shortly after that programme, one of the same proprietary brands was gaily advertised on the screen. If RTE are to involve themselves in advising the public in this field, it is improper for them afterwards to take money for advertising these self-same products.

There was also a tendency on this programme to name individuals. I agree that if this programme can be informative and helpful to the public, telling them what to look for when buying products and to be on their guard, it is a good thing; but when they set themselves up as judges and mention, as they have done, particular people, I think they are then going beyond their rights. The two cases I have in mind concerned very insignificant people. I cannot recall having seen any programmes where large combines and groups were mentioned or where the members of any of the professions were mentioned. The people concerned had their advisers— solicitors, architects, engineers and so on—to advise them. Yet we saw one man, oftentimes the least experienced, who merely acts as a co-ordinator of commodities and services to produce a product. He is criticised, named and judged by the people as a whole without any chance of defending himself, except an invitation to appear before his peers—the people. I do not like to draw analogies, but there was a man in Europe who did precisely that kind of thing. He dragged millions of individuals before their peers, the people, and let the people judge. I do not think RTE are going that far but they are going dangerously close to it. They are providing a service paid for by the licence holders and out of revenue. They would want to be very careful in this matter.

Again, we have had certain distasteful items on Telefís Éireann. It would be no harm to inform the artists concerned that, when they take licence, they will not be given a second opportunity to do so. In general, the efforts of RTE to entertain, amuse and educate are good, but in some respects they need to be watched. I would appeal to the Minister, if he has any powers, to watch carefully. This House and the Government should be very careful about giving away control of this powerful medium of propaganda. If there is need for control, that control should be exercised from this House. The only other media we have are the newspapers; and we know that, by and large, the newspapers are controlled. They are controlled by their readers, by their shareholders and owners, and they are controlled also by the interests and needs of their advertisers. The only free medium is television, and it is a question of how free we can leave it. This powerful medium of propaganda should be used carefully. If we say in this House we have no right to interfere with what is put on, or to take off programmes, if we have to wait until the cat is out of the bag, if we are to do all these things, we may have reason to regret it.

In conclusion, I should like to express my sincere thanks to all officials and employees of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for their courtesy. By and large, they have been doing a good job.

A tribute is due to the staffs of the Department by virtue of the fact that so little fault has been found with their work by the Deputies who have spoken in the debate so far. It prompts me to say that I have some doubt as to the need for a Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. Again, I have doubts as to whether they should be given autonomy. Telefís Éireann was given autonomy or, at least, supposed to have been given it. Yet, every Minister in the House has some time or another been messing in the running of their affairs. I do not know if one could follow that line and give the Department of Posts and Telegraphs complete autonomy but I feel that there is no need for a Minister.

Telefís Éireann, being a very important means of communication, is the matter that calls for most discussion in this debate. On the whole, Telefís Éireann have been doing a fair job. They should be left to themselves, without messing by Ministers telling them what programme they will put on or what programme they should not put on. We heard of the Minister for External Affairs intervening. He should remain external as far as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is concerned. I do not think he had anything to add. If the Poles could produce a film that could be shown on our screen, there are Irishmen fit to do so and to preserve a proper balance as far as the war in Vietnam is concerned.

I would ask the Minister does he agree that we get an overdose of American trash on our screens? Are we getting an overdose of the gunman, the type of gentleman who fires all night a revolver that never seems to need reloading? It must be a wonderful gun, a sort of machine gun. Are we getting an overdose of the long-haired groups, the "Ban the bomb" types. Some of these gentlemen leave a very bad taste in one's mouth if one has been watching them for very long. Are we setting a poor standard for our youth by showing these crazy-looking artists, who appear to be neither men nor women?

It is only right and proper that tribute should be paid to certain programmes, programmes that are racy of the soil. I should like to take this opportunity of paying tribute to every one of the artists appearing in "The Riordans" and in "Tolka Row". These are programmes that people appreciate more than "The Man from UNCLE" or some other programmes. I suppose one would not stop viewing television in order to go for a walk if there was something to interest one all the time. When we do want to view, there should be a worthwhile programme to look at. The good natural acting of groups such as are engaged in "Tolka Row" and "The Riordans" is very highly appreciated and has a very high rating throughout the country.

I am prompted to ask are we getting an overdose of badly-timed advertisements. Right in the middle of a programme that may be of interest, one is asked to accept something "cool".

"Chewy and crunchy."

Yes. Are we getting an overdose of drink on television? We would have sick heads in the morning if we were to swallow all that we are asked to swallow. A better sense of values should be displayed.

Telefís Éireann should play a greater part in promoting tourism. Why not have a television campaign suggesting that viewers should "See Ireland First"? Places of interest should be shown. Quite a number of people have never gone west of the Shannon from Dublin while they may have gone across the Irish Sea. There is something to offer tourists in every part of the country and our own people should be encouraged to see these places first before going abroad.

Over the years I have emphasised the importance of weather forecasts in regard to the West. The major tourist centre is in the West. Many years ago I drew attention to this fact and I am glad to see other Deputies in my constituency taking it up.

It is always raining in the West.

On that, I challenge the Deputy. In the past three weeks, there has not been a drop of rain there —my colleague, Deputy Geoghegan, on the far side of the House, can bear me out in that—but it has been pouring rain in Dublin. It is very important that during the tourist season adverse comment should not be made about the weather in the west of Ireland.

There is always a warm welcome there.

There may be rain in the tip of Donegal or the tip of Kerry but in 50 cases out of every 100 the forecasts are out as far as the major tourist centre, Galway, is concerned.

I should like to see more assistance being given to students preparing for examinations. Possibly Telefís Éireann could do something in the summer season to help students who may be sitting for examinations later in the year.

Deputies from Dublin have expressed objection to the suggestion that there may be an increase in broadcasting licence fees. Whatever ground there may be for objection to such increase in the West, there is less ground in Dublin where cross-Channel programmes are available for viewers who may feel they have had an overdose of some of the trash we have to watch. There is only one channel available to viewers in the West. We object to this suggestion of an increase in licence fees.

I should also like to go on record as objecting to the following statement by the Minister:

Another matter being examined is whether radio and television dealers and rental companies should be required by law to notify my Department of the names and addresses of customers who buy or rent sets from them.

Is that not going a bit far? Are these people to be put on the spot? Will it be taken a step further and if the name of the person who purchased or rented the set is given to the Minister, and if on inquiry that person says, "I have not got that set: I presented it to some other person", will that person be compelled to name the person to whom he has presented it? That sort of thing can be carried a bit too far. The Minister should not proceed on those lines. The informer has never been appreciated in this country.

Would it be possible for Telefís Éireann when giving the news to provide a synopsis, at the end of the news, of what has been broadcast? People may not be in time for the beginning of the news. Radio Éireann give a run-through of the headlines of the news and it would be appreciated if Telefís Éireann could do the same thing.

I should like to ask the Minister if it would be possible to expedite the installation of telephones in the West, particularly in areas that cater for tourists. People may not be registered with Bord Fáilte, because they are beginning to find a snag in registration. The snag is this that if they are registered they get the hammer from the income tax people. I have known a case—this may be out of order——

It does not seem to arise on this Estimate.

I want to make my point about the disadvantage under which a man may suffer if he registers with Bord Fáilte and if he gets a phone. He may get the hammer from the income tax people. I have known a case of a man who got a bill for £200.

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has no responsibility for that.

I agree, but I am merely saying what can happen in regard to the telephone on the same basis. This man got a bill for £200 where he only made £60. I feel the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs would be whispering down the avenues to the income tax branch and saying: "Put the hammer on this fellow." Apart from that, the telephone plays a very important role in tourism, whether those catering for tourists are registered or not. I should like to draw the attention of the Minister also to the vast increase in population in the Mervue area of Galway. The Minister may say there is a telephone kiosk at one side of the estate, but I suggest that there is need for one on the Renmore side of the Mervue estate. It is very important that this facility should be available possibly for the summoning of an ambulance, a doctor or a nurse. I would ask the Minister to take a note of that.

When the debate was taking place last October on the previous Estimate, the then Minister announced in the House that it was proposed to change the name of the Department to Posts and Telecommunications. While I admit that "Posts and Telecommunications and Transport and Power" would be a very long name to give the Department, it would be more realistic to make that change. "Posts and Telegraphs" does not describe what the Department are now responsible for. I agree with Deputy Mullen that it is now a very important Department.

On the question of telecommunications, I wonder has the Minister given any consideration to the setting up of a factory to manufacture switchboards, carrier systems, et cetera, in this country, because there seems to be a chronic shortage of those things, not alone in this country but in many other countries in the world. One of the reasons for the delay in the installation of telephones over the last couple of years was that they were in short supply. Would this not be an idea, to set up such a factory to give employment to many hundreds of skilled operatives? Even if it is necessary to bring in the traditional foreigner with the knowhow to have it set up, I suggest that the Minister might look into this. It provides two ways in which we can help ourselves: through the employment given and through the fact that the necessary equipment would be available and, I presume, available at a lower price than is being paid for it at present.

The Minister will excuse me for acting somewhat like a grasshopper, jumping from one thing to another on this Estimate, because as it is only six or seven months since the Estimate was debated before, it is rather difficult to find matters which have not been fully discussed in this House. However, I should like if I may to go back to one matter which comes up every time the Department is discussed, that is, the question of the postman's uniform. Has any progress been made in regard to redesigning and improving the uniform? The matter seems to have been lost sight of completely since it was previously discussed. The present uniform is shapeless; the trousers are baggy old things, and the coat was apparently designed for one person, and is not too well made. I have yet to see a postman that the uniform fits well. It is all right to say that there has to be rough material put into it so that it will be a protection against the weather, but there should be some other way of protecting the postman rather than having him wear a baggy old thing that seems to have been put together with very inferior material and with very little care put into its manufacture.

I do not know whether it is realised or not, but the postman is the public face of the Department, particularly in the country districts. He goes to practically every house. Everybody sees him in his uniform and recognises him as being Posts and Telegraphs. Some effort should be made to smarten him up. Other public servants and the servants of private firms who wear uniforms have been smartened up, and I do not see why the postman should be the odd man out.

Furthermore, there seems to be, for some unknown reason, undue delay in issuing uniforms. When people who are employed by the Department are given uniforms they are allowed to wear them until they are, I might say, not in a decent condition before the new issue is given. There is absolutely no reason for that except that somebody has been careless. Possibly it is not a matter to which the Minister should have to attend, but a word from him might solve this problem and solve it very quickly. In many cases postmen have had to revert to their own civilian clothes. This is a breach of the regulations, I know, but they could not get a new uniform after wearing the other one for many years, long service people. This brings me to another matter the Minister might consider: if the uniform cannot be supplied there should be some type of refund given to the man who wears his own clothes while working.

We come to another chestnut, the question of the pension for auxiliary postmen. Has the Minister gone any further on that? I said on the Department of Lands Estimate today that the State are about the meanest and poorest employers in the country. This is another example of it. Men who have been employed as auxiliary postmen all their lives finish up with nothing. If they come out before 70 they are left practically destitute—at 70 they may qualify for an old age pension— and there seems to be no justification for this. The State apparently thinks that, whilst it is all right to pension everybody up the line, those at the bottom must be left without anything. The number involved must be very small and surely it is not asking too much in this Year of Our Lord One Thousand Nine Hundred and Sixty Seven to suggest that auxiliary postmen should get some kind of pension when they retire.

In addition, if there is a gratuity, these men may be left for months waiting for it. I can see no reason why a rough estimate could not be made as to the amount of the gratuity and 50 per cent paid immediately. The bookkeepers could then decide on the actual pennies and halfpennies so that, finally, when the correct amount is assessed, there would be enough to ensure that there will be no question of overpayment. I think that is a reasonable suggestion. The Minister might look into this matter.

Another matter which is causing a good deal of dissatisfaction is the position of an auxiliary postman who has been working with the Post Office for a long time. For one reason or another, he has never been made permanent. Is there any way in which long service men could be established? I am sure it is not beyond ingenuity of the Minister and his Department to ensure that these people should get some compensation for faithful service. It would mean a great deal to them. Even if they do not pass examinations, they continue to do exactly the same work right through their working lives, for a lower rate of wages, of course. They should be treated as having served their apprenticeship. Passing examinations is not everything and that is particularly true of the kind of examination to which some of these people are subjected in order to become established. It a man has served for 15, 20 or 30 years, why can he not be established instead of having the spectre of unemployment hanging over him all the time.

The rate of wages paid to auxiliary postmen is ridiculously small. When a man retires, he may be replaced by a younger man, who does the job better than his predecessor, but that younger man starts at a shockingly low rate of wages. That is why it is difficult to get these people to continue in this service. I know the idea is to solve this problem by motorisation. I am not against progress. I am not against motorisation but I believe no man should be disemployed merely on the basis of progress. A motorvan may result in the disemployment of a certain number of men in a particular area. These are hardship cases and I know that the Minister will immediately advance the argument that hard cases make bad law. I admit hardship is not really a good answer, but can the Minister give me a better one? Should not human beings be treated as human beings?

This is one instance in which the State seems to fall down badly. While it is all right to take into account the human relations of the people who are well paid and in safe jobs, the casual, the man who is merely a labourer or a mail carrier, particularly an unestablished one, is treated in a different way. There will have to be a new approach and I would ask the Minister to be very careful before he agrees that men are laid off in order to be replaced by a motorvan. This must be the best job they could get; otherwise they would have moved into something else. In the rural areas in particular a man who is disemployed finds it very difficult to find another job. These men have to remain on at the labour exchange for six months —it will soon be 12 months—and, while they may not be very much worse off financially the first year, the cost of their livelihood is really being paid on the double. That is something. I suppose, that someone will try to check out in years to come to discover the gains and the losses. This is a matter in which the Department should make haste slowly; motorisation has caused and is likely to cause a considerable amount of annoyance and injury and I would ask the Minister to make haste slowly in this respect.

With regard to pensionable postmen, I had a case recently of a man who was employed for a number of years as a postman. He was an ex-Army man, having served during the Emergency period. He had to retire because of ill-health. He was established and he had no cards stamped. His pension was £3 12s 6d a week to support himself, his wife and four children. He had to apply for home assistance. If he had cards stamped, he would have got something over £4 for himself and his wife, 13/- each for the first two children and 8/- for each remaining child. That is another type of hardship case which should be considered. There should be some way of counter-balancing the financial position of these unfortunate people. Nobody wants to go to the home assistance officer because home assistance is regarded as charity.

I am rather surprised to find there are still many grades which have not yet got the five-day week. It is said that this cannot be given in the case of postmen and telephonists. Is there any reason why it should not be given? I can see no problem where postmen are concerned. I believe it is something which could be introduced without any difficulty at all. People would get used to it just as they have got used to getting no mail on Christmas Day or on Sundays. In the case of telephonists, it might mean the employment of more telephonists or a change in the system of working. I see no reason why that could not be done. It should be introduced for all as quickly as possible. Perhaps the Minister will tell us whether he proposes to do anything about this.

The Minister said that he proposed to bring into use in the near future the new sorting office. He proposes to bring it in by sections. I think that was the phrase he used. I wonder if the workers' organisations have been fully consulted as to how they will be affected by the change, particularly with regard to duties and such matters. Why is it necessary to introduce it in this particular way? Why was it not possible to have a complete changeover at the one time? It is a big improvement: nobody is quarrelling about that. Perhaps the Minister would tell us why it has been decided to do it in this way.

Last year, I asked the Minister's predecessor what it was proposed to do with regard to the Giro system. I understand that, as the British were introducing it, it might be considered at a later date. I think I recall that Deputy Dillon inquired what it was and the Minister's predecessor went into great detail in explaining what exactly it is. It seems to operate satisfactorily across the water. Does the Minister propose to introduce it here? I understood from Deputy J. Brennan, the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, that if it were found satisfactory across the water, it would be introduced here.

Another matter with regard to the Post Office staff is the question of civil rights. At the present time, Post Office employees have no civil or political rights. One thing I can never understand is that in any other walk of life —teachers, ESB employees, and so on—people can be members of a local authority, members of town commissioners, members of county councils, members of the Dáil or the Seanad and it does not interfere with their rights. It is surely not suggested that a postman is more likely to have influence or to injure the State politically than, say, a teacher? If a teacher has the right to be elected to this House or to any other body, surely a postman and Post Office employees should also enjoy that right? This is 1967. It is rather foolish to suggest that this has to have further consideration. Last year, the Minister referred to the fact that the Post Office might become a public corporation. If it does become a public corporation, then, automatically, the employees will have civil rights. If you are going to make a change, why wait until something like that happens? Perhaps the Minister might make a statement on that when he is replying and say if in fact he is deciding about it. Unfortunately, this is not a question which alone affects the Labour Party. There are misguided workers in the Post Office who support Fianna Fáil and one or two Fine Gael——

Naturally.

Even after passing their examination to get to the higher grades in the Post Office, there are people who can be rather foolish in their own interests.

They see clearly.

They, likewise, are debarred from taking up any office. As a matter of fact, we have the instance of a man who had been a member of a local authority for 40 years, an ordinary country postman. At one stage, he got an instruction that if he did not either resign from the Party and become an Independent on the local authority or resign from the county council altogether he would have to give up his job and in the case of the coming election, I am told that unless he makes up his mind one way or the other he cannot continue his job—an ordinary £7, £8 or £9 a week postman. Could anything be more ridiculous? I am quite sure the Minister appreciates how ridiculous it looks that this sort of outmoded arrangement should continue. I would ask him to take the one step necessary in this respect. I am sure he would find very little opposition from his colleagues. It requires only a little moral courage to take the decision and I am sure it is one the Minister will not regret. Perhaps the Minister might tell us whether or not he proposes to proceed with the establishment of a Post Office Corporation about which his predecessor in office seemed to be enthusiastic last year.

From time to time, I have been asking a question about telephone kiosks. I am usually told that the telephone in a post office somewhere is not used sufficiently to warrant the erection of a telephone kiosk outside. Of course, the Minister and his Department seem completely to forget that if the kiosk is inside the post office, then it cannot be used when the post office is closed and that in the hours when it is needed most the post office is not open. Over the past few years, in a number of villages the post office telephone has been moved from the counter inside to a kiosk outside. I suggest that this might be done on a larger scale. It would mean that telephone facilities would be available to the general public after normal duty hours. I am quite sure the Minister will find that there will be general approval for it and that the move will justify itself. I am rather amused when we are told, in cases where there is no telephone at all, that it is felt that a kiosk would not be justified, even though the nearest telephone may be seven to ten miles away. Of course, the local man with a private telephone usually has the answer as to why there is not a big row. So long as his telephone is available, there will be no big demand for one which has to be paid for.

I want to mention now a matter which has caused a certain amount of annoyance. I do not know whether the Minister can do anything about it. Perhaps this could be dealt with from the point of view of modern technology. I refer to the practice in certain districts of people making fairly lengthy calls, long-distance calls in many cases, by booking them not under their own number but under the number of somebody else. I know some people who have got telephone accounts with as much as £20 extra on the accounts because calls were made not from their number but by some smart person who, when booking the call, booked it under the number of a neighbour. Of course, one way to beat them at that practice is if there is a call back. If there is any delay in a call back, it falls down but if they are able to get the call through, just by booking it, it works. It is not very nice to get a telephone bill with anything up to £20 added to it and very considerable trouble is caused before the matter can be straightened out. As a matter of fact, a telegram was sent in that manner. The man concerned was not very religious and he was most annoyed when the telegram was signed "From the Reverend Mother and all the Sisters in the Convent". He felt he was neither the Reverend Mother nor the Sisters. At first, he thought it was a mistake by the operator. These things happen and cause a lot of annoyance.

There is another matter which has caused annoyance to me and to other people: I mentioned it some years ago when I had in my hand a telephone account with the expression "Printed in the USA" on it. I thought that, possibly, over the years, we might do something about that. However, the account I got yesterday has "Printed in the USA" on it. It may be that we have a very large supply of these cards which has not yet run out or else it would seem that we are unable to print such cards in this country. I should hate to think that is the real reason.

There have been some rather harsh references to sub-post offices. There are sub-post offices which are good, some which are bad and some which are indifferent. Generally speaking, the sub-post offices give an extraordinarily good service. They are jacks-of-all-trades. They do everything from ordinary matters of letters, stamps for letters and various types of stamps, to, in most cases, the issue of postal orders, money orders and various types of social welfare benefits. I do not know whether they are still inadequately remunerated for that job but it appears to be somewhat ridiculous that somebody who is paid a few pounds a week should be asked to handle not alone a stock of stamps amounting perhaps to a couple of hundred pounds but also has to handle another couple of hundred pounds in social welfare payments, which he has to account for and ensure that everything is correct. Perhaps this is something about which the Minister might think.

I note that, to use the old expression, the Minister is bragging about the fact that a number of sub-post offices were closed during the year and that there was a saving. I am doubtful about that because while some of them may not have been doing a lot of business, at the same time if some old person is discommoded as a result of the closing down of the sub-post office the saving is a very doubtful one.

With regard to the telephone directory, I hope that with the increasing number of subscribers we will not have a further reduction in the size of the print. Even if one has a fairly good pair of glasses, it is sometimes extremely difficult to see a number by the light in a kiosk. I suggest to the Minister that he might consider having two directories instead of one. If we have reached the stage where the print has to be so small, then we have reached the stage where we should have a second directory. With the growth in the number of telephone subscribers, it is the logical thing to do.

The Minister said that he may have to consider increasing the licence fee for television and radio. This would be of very doubtful value. The present fee of £5 for television and radio is fairly high, particularly when, if one has a car radio, one has to pay an extra 25/-. The Minister referred to the number of people who appear to be avoiding paying the licence and this rather intrigued me. Recently I received a call from the county council where I had my car registered to say that somebody had been inquiring about the number of my car. Even though I had a licence, somebody went to the trouble to check up on it. Perhaps the particular person does not like TDs. However, that happened and when there is such vigilance, I wonder how other people are able to get away without paying.

Deputy Coogan commented that they have only one station in the West and that people who can view three stations have not got so much to complain about. In most parts of Meath we receive a pretty good picture from the three stations. We found that the UTV programme was being "ghosted" by the Telefís Éireann programme and the Minister's predecessor tried to do something about it. He sent somebody along to look at it—that is supposed to be the solution to most problems—and a man went to Trim to find out why this was happening. He uttered words of wisdom but this did not put an end to the "ghosting". Whether or not we should get some cleric to say prayers over it I do not know but perhaps the Minister might say if there is any solution to this problem where it appears that Telefís Éireann is interfering with either BBC or UTV programmes.

There was a time when we were inclined to condemn foreign stations and we are not supposed to listen to them. I hope that attitude does not exist still because if it does we should try to jam the Light Programme and so on. Fortunately or unfortunately, I do not have as much time as Deputy Gallagher seems to have for looking at programmes and therefore I may not be as competent to judge them. However, from what I can see, I do not find that the Telefís Éireann programmes are to be greatly condemned. I am satisfied that they are making a reasonable effort and will continue to do so if they are left alone. In the main, the programmes I see are reasonably good. Deputy Coogan condemned the "bang-bang" programmes but there are people who enjoy them. Such people will read cowboy stories and so on, which get them away from ordinary life, and I can see nothing at all wrong with that. It is not destroying the morale or the morals of children or adults. Telefís Éireann might give a lead in regard to providing us with more Irish entertainment—call it culture or what you like. I believe that we get a better programme of Irish dance music, for instance, from UTV than from Telefís Éireann. These are personal views with which everybody will perhaps not agree.

It seems to be the thing to condemn Telefís Éireann programmes, to turn to other stations and to say that this should not be allowed or that that is wrong. That is all cod. There is one way in which people can avoid seeing things they dislike or which they think are injuring their families, that is, by switching off the set. A lot of people seem to have forgotten that there is a switch. I sincerely believe that there should not be interference with Telefís Éireann from the Government or from Ministers. If there is, then the Government or the Minister responsible should be answerable to this House. We cannot have it both ways and if a Minister has the right to ring up and say that a programme should or should not go on, then he should be prepared to come in and answer for his action here. If he is not prepared to do that, he should leave it alone.

In regard to the Vietnam question, I have not been in Vietnam, any more than a number of people I have heard talking here, and therefore am not competent to judge, but in view of the fact that the Polish film on Vietnam was allowed on Telefís Éireann I do not believe that the team, if it had gone from here, could have produced anything that was more partisan. I fail to see the logic of Deputy Gallagher's argument. He seemed to think that the Polish film having been shown, then a Telefís Éireann film should not be made or shown. However, somebody else will judge that. That is my personal opinion.

"Home Truths" is a programme I have not seen but I have heard a lot about it. I believe that for somebody to come in and object to the comments being made in it in this House is rather foolish because the comments made by the persons speaking on "Home Truths" or on anything else on Telefís Éireann are not in the same position as here: they are not privileged. They must know their facts before they make statements. If they do not, they are answerable in law. What is the use then of saying that people were being slandered and that there was nothing they could do about it? If they are being slandered, they have a remedy in law. If that is the reason why this programme is being taken off, I think it is wrong. Whether or not I would agree with the programme if I saw it is another matter.

There are other programmes of general interest which I did see. I have the greatest admiration for the people running those programmes because, with the very limited time allowed, they have been able to put across not only an impression that they have time but also very good programmes. I cannot understand why they must be so much tied to time, why, when there is a sensible, serious problem for discussion, it must be confined to eight minutes with five people taking part. That gives them less than a minute each when one allows for the lead-in and the finish. It means there is no time for discussion at all. If Telefís Éireann want to improve these programmes, they must give more time to them or reduce the size of the panels. Trying to put across too much at one time has detracted from very excellent programmes. This does not take from the fact that the planning behind these programmes is excellent and that the work they are able to do in such a limited time must be seen to be believed.

News items have been mentioned. Many of us become annoyed if we get a rehash of news which we have just got on another channel from Telefís Éireann and do not get matters which we think are of importance. Many parts of the country that are not able to get the other channels may be glad to get the news in the way it is given. It is hard to please everybody and, they say, only a fool tries. Possibly there could be a little more local news on both radio and television. There are matters of great importance to the ordinary people which seem to be over-looked. We have had charges across the floor of victimisation and of Telefís Éireann showing what they like to show. I think that is cod. I think news reporters put across what they think is news. I would be as critical as anybody else but I have yet to see anybody in Radio Éireann or Telefís Éireann trying to put a slant or political views on the news. It is only fair to say that.

Hear, hear.

I have asked the Minister for a number of years and I again ask, is there any hope of expediting the removal of overhead telephone lines and putting them underground particularly in areas where there is a certain amount of scenic beauty? Nothing is so ridiculous as to see high tension ESB lines on one side and telephone lines on the other side. This is found all over the place. Granted planning some years ago, when these were first erected, might not have been as good as it should have been but at least we have now reached the stage when something could be done to improve the position. Again, I cannot understand why, when somebody has got a telephone into his house, there must be a big 35 foot pole outside his gate. Surely connections should be given to half a dozen people at least, particularly in a village, from the one pole and avoid this unsightly business. I know that if you have not a telephone, you are glad to see that pole outside your gate so as to get a connection but I think it would be a good idea if it could be avoided.

Deputy Gallagher referred to the colour of pillar boxes. I have been listening for the past couple of weeks to Government talk about entering the Common Market but if we have reached the stage of changing the colour of the pillar boxes, if we are now objecting to the green colour on the pillar boxes, I think I have heard everything. Whether or not the international design, which shall be nameless, will be used on them or not I do not care. Possibly somebody might use the chisel and take "GR" off some of them but, by and large, I think we have been able to find them with the green colour on them. It would be a mistake if we attempted to start changing the colour now. After all in the North, they are very quick to paint them red and nobody there has suggested that they should change to green. It is rather ridiculous to suggest we should change the colour of pillar boxes.

Finally, I think the Department, which was a very insignificant one some years ago when it was usually referred to as the "Department of Posts and Postal Orders" has now become quite important. The fact that it combines the postal services with the telephone services has perhaps contributed to this. Incidentally, the question of telegrams losing money is again mentioned and I believe it will continue to be until telegrams cease to be used because raising the charge, only reduces the usage of the service.

Generally speaking the Department is reasonably well run. Taking the people who run the Department, from the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary down to the lowest civil servant, the postmen who will not get a pension or a uniform, taking all them together, I find them, in my daily contact with them, quite courteous and giving good service. That being so, we hope they will continue to be an example to other services in the State.

I could not agree more with the previous speaker when he spoke of the postmen. There is one group known as auxiliary postmen and another as whole-time temporary postmen. Both groups should be amalgamated and it is high time the Department faced up to providing some kind of pension scheme for these people. Some of them have given 50 or 60 years service but if they go out for any reason such as illness at the age of 60, they get no pension. If they continue to the age of 70, I suppose they get the contributory pension for whatever years are left to them and they may be very few.

Looking at the question of postal deliveries, I wonder what is the position regarding motorisation. In the areas where it is working has it shown a saving or the reverse? I cannot understand how you can run a mailvan, pay for petrol and tyres, batteries and repairs at less than what a postman would get. If the Minister and his Department can work it out and see where there is a saving, I will not be able to contradict them. I feel there is not a saving.

As well, there is a lot of delay. People who have applied for telephones have their applications in two or three years and yet there is no sign of their getting telephone services. I urge the Minister to step up the installation of telephone services and especially to step up the automatic service, if at all possible. The sooner the whole country is automatic the better for everyone concerned. Perhaps other TDs know what I mean when I say that.

The last speaker mentioned the provision of kiosks. In country districts you have some difficulty where you have villages approximately nine or ten miles away from a post office. If you put down a question in this House, the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary will tell you that it is not a paying proposition and it cannot be provided. If you ask a supplementary, you will be told that there are so many private phones in that village and that people may use them. That may be all right in some of the larger towns but it is not all right in regard to the people who live in these villages. In the cities and some of the larger villages, you have telephone kiosks but it is quite a different thing in the part of the country I refer to. The public-houses close down at 11.30 p.m. in the summer and are then unavailable to the public.

It is a very serious situation if somebody becomes suddenly ill and a doctor is required. Many of those people have no cars. The doctor may be living five or ten miles away and in certain areas in my constituency it takes a long time to cycle that distance. If there were a kiosk in some suitable place, the doctor could be contacted. The ideal solution is to take all the phone boxes at present in the existing post offices and put them outside. A light could be put in them, as is provided in certain areas at the moment, and a service would then be available to those people who may require a doctor. Certainly, since the clearance of herds came in one very often has to look for a vet for cattle. If the telephone box is outside, you get through to the nearest exchange capable of taking the call and the call is then transmitted to the vet. That would be the best way out, if kiosks cannot be provided for the whole area.

As regards telephone services in general in the West, certainly in Galway, once the month of June comes in, from then until September it is next to impossible to get a phone call from the west of Galway into the city or to Dublin. We have tourists coming across from England on holidays, some of whom come in in the mornings and book a fixed time call. They may stay on the phone for ten or 12 minutes. What chance has the poor person who has to go along to the local post office perhaps to ring the hospital to find out how his father, his mother or his sister is after an operation? I have known occasions on which it took two or three hours to get a phone call through from anywhere around Clifden to Galway. It is especially bad outside Clifden. I live 25 miles outside Clifden but I still must go through Clifden exchange to get a phone call.

I know a few extra lines have been put in and I admit that there has been some improvement but there are not half enough lines to take the heavy traffic we have in this area, particularly from June to September. During that time you have a heavy influx of tourists into the area. All telephone calls must be put through the Clifden exchange. The people in the post office are doing the best they can but they cannot do a perfect job when they have not got enough lines to take the calls booked. I would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that in the Clifden area, and particularly in the area in which I live, the calls should be routed around the sea coast. By so doing, you could take nearly half the lines away from the Clifden exchange and give them a chance to deal with the traffic which at present must come through them.

You would need a satellite over there.

It is only fair that I or somebody like me should pay tribute to the local post offices in the west of Ireland for the job they are doing. Certainly I would not be able to put up with their job of booking calls, re-booking calls and all the rest of it. They have to put up with a great lot from time to time.

As regards television, I have stated here on every Estimate, and I state it again now, that one could well say that there is no picture at all to be got in certain parts of the Connemara area. I would sincerely ask the Parliamentary Secretary to get somebody out immediately to have a look at this matter. The only way to improve the situation in that area is to have a booster station on some part of the Twelve Pins. There is a booster station on Corran Hill, just outside Mullranny in Mayo. This had no effect on reception in Connemara. I was told by the then Minister that if we got an electrician out and had our sets adjusted we would get a better picture from that booster station outside Mullranny. We had him out but since then, it is just as bad as ever.

One night you get snow, another night, long lines and another night, flashing lines, with no kind of proper picture at all, except maybe a bull fight from Spain. I know it is a very nice thing to get a bull fight from Spain when it is a clear picture. I would sincerely ask the Parliamentary Secretary to get out somebody to investigate the area west of Oughterard and Spiddal. I know there are very high hills around us and this is probably the trouble. If a booster station were put on one of the Twelve Pins, we would get good reception. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary not to collect the television licence fee from us as we are merely wasting our time trying to get programmes which we cannot get.

What a hope!

I am afraid if we are asked to pay higher licence fees we must cash in on this.

It is a new set you want.

It is not a new set we want: our sets are all right. I would again ask the Parliamentary Secretary to get somebody out to have this matter investigated.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 17th May, 1967.
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