At the outset I would like to thank Deputies on all sides of the House for their constructive suggestions, and while I may not refer to every point dealt with in the debate, I would like to assure the Deputies in question that if I do omit anything in my reply now, I shall write personally to them in the course of the next two weeks when I look further into some of these matters which could not be dealt with today.
The first question that might be asked of a Minister for Education is what is the principal thing that animates him in seeking better education for the people of his country. My answer would be that it is to enable every citizen to lead a full life. We cannot expect a citizen to lead this full life unless his education is such as will enable him to develop his potential to the greatest possible extent and having reached that stage, he can then expect to derive a high degree of satisfaction from work and pleasure.
In our present age a high level of education is essential not alone for any worthwhile position but for any real enjoyment of many of the modern vehicles of entertainment. Whatever else we might say, for example, about television, it does provide us from time to time with first-class educational programmes which can be fully appreciated only by those whose own education is adequate. Not only will the educational requirements for various posts continue to rise but all human activities will become more and more sophisticated. A man or woman who has not acquired a good education cannot hope to live a full life in the circumstances which will obtain in the future. Therefore, education is important, not only for its own sake but for the sake of the social man. I make these opening statements in winding up the discussion on this Estimate so that people will appreciate, I hope, that I know not only where I am going as Minister for Education, but why I am going.
There is one aspect of education referred to by some of the speakers which I feel does not get the attention it deserves when we come to debate education in general. I refer to adult education. Of course, there are very many bodies engaged in adult education. The work being done in the vocational schools and by the various voluntary bodies comes readily to mind. Excellent work is being done in many centres through the development, for example, of youth clubs. It has been suggested to me that many more such clubs might be formed if accommodation were available. This brings me to the thought that we have very fine assembly halls and large rooms associated with many primary, secondary, and vocational schools, the use of which is limited to a few hours every day. Indeed, you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, could cite instances where some of these large halls are utilised only a few times a year. This, of course, is a great tragedy. We cannot let this position continue much longer while these clubs are crying out for accommodation and when we would just not be in a position to supply the millions and millions of pounds to fulfil this need.
I would again refer to one of Ireland's outstanding sociologists— perhaps he might not so entitle himself —Father Liam Ryan of UCC and his social document Social Dynamite. Those of us who have read this document recall with feelings of regret the lack of community centres in our housing schemes throughout Ireland. Father Ryan quoted families being taken from the old Georgian cities and put into other cities and into fine new houses and then the local authority saw the lovely plan coloured green called “open space” and now all that is there are boulders, rocks and wandering horses and the housing scheme is there and the young people are at the street corners and the old people have nowhere to go because of that lack of a community centre. One cannot take this problem in isolation. It is very much associated with education of the young and adult education.
Training in the use of leisure for our young people in their formative years is absolutely imperative. The Minister for Education, the Department of Education and the Government cannot do a great deal but they can give indications, can provide guidelines; they can try to initiate co-ordination of the activities of these excellent voluntary bodies. That brings to mind the boys' clubs and the tremendous work they are doing and all these other bodies comprising the National Youth Council.
I am glad to say that I got a letter from the Minister for Finance last evening authorising a small grant to the National Youth Council to help them in their problems. It is not so long ago that all these various bodies dealing with the youth of the country—Macra na Tuatha, Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, Muintir na Tire, came together. Perhaps I should not have mentioned those four because I have left out about 20. An interesting development is that the Federation of Catholic Boys' Clubs have now received approval that these youth clubs be comprised of both sexes. This is forward thinking by the Hierarchy or whoever is dealing at a high level with the organisation of these clubs. It is mature thinking. There is now approval that in these youth clubs boys and girls can come to gether in an environment under suppervision. They will have somewhere to go. It is a wonderful step forward.
Perhaps someone in the public gallery listening to me might ask what this Estimate is about. We all appreciate that we cannot divorce the problem of leisure from the question of education. The type of community centre to which I have referred and the utilisation of schools for this purpose will help our young people and those not so young to build up their character, develop their talents, increase their physical well-being, will give them an opportunity to exchange views and, as I said earlier, enable the individual to develop his full potential.
Our schools are not concerning themselves sufficiently with the out-of-school recreation activities of our children. We have very long holidays in Ireland. Perhaps I might digress for a moment. I have an idea at the present time in regard to which many school authorities do not agree with me although there are a few who do. I would like to see the schools in Ireland close down at the end of May and come back in what is the autumn, August. Tourism immediately comes to mind but before we come to that, I want to say that I think everyone who contributed to this debate said that the children are our prime concern. June, with the long days, even if there is not much sunshine, would enable families, as we know most of us would like to do, to go to the seaside or take their holidays in June, but due to the set-up at present, some of the schools go on to the end of June and I think some of them go into early July. This just is not right.
Let us come to the tourist industry. I have had a very strong case made to me by the Minister for Transport and Power to look at this problem of summer holidays. Again, I have had some interesting correspondence from some children. One of the most heartening things about Ireland today is the number of children who write to me on many of their problems. It is very encouraging that young people are able to express themselves. I do not think we would have done that in our day. This is a good trend. One of the most interesting comments from a letter I received recently was that as things are at present they are at school until the end of June or early July. They do their leaving certificate or the matriculation examination and they are waiting for results which do not come out until the first week in August. If the child had to repeat some subjects, which is quite normal, he would have to continue studying. If the schools closed at the end of May and the children sat for the leaving certificate and had to repeat some subjects, they could have a rest of a month or so before studying for those extra subjects.
May I say this? I do not know whether we will be able to achieve this. As I say, it is difficult to upset our institutions and their ways. They will tell you 101 different reasons why they should not be upset. If this thing is basically sound, we will just have to adapt ourselves accordingly in the best interests of our children and in the national interest as well. We do not want to do anything that will cause upset to anybody or any organisation. We will have discussions. We will not wake up some Monday morning and find a statement saying that this big change has been made. We know that there are three, four, five or even ten sides to every story. Possibly there might need to be a transitional period.
I know this is rather revolutionary but I think it will come. I have discussed this matter with Deputies. I am glad to say that I do not think any week passes that I do not meet Deputies of all Parties. Education is not a political matter in the sense in which we use the word "political": it as far above that. We are all agreed that as time goes on, our educational policy will have to improve year by year. We are all united on that, thank God. Deputies on all sides of the House seem to feel very strongly on this holiday aspect.
We should organise on this whole question of holidays. I was talking about the non-utilisation of our schools and I want to say that we are alive to that because we know that during the holidays our children have just nowhere to go. We should utilise our schools for those children. I often quote Kevin O'Higgins who said: "You, me and the fellow around the corner, that's us." It is the Irish tax-payers who pay for those schools in the final analysis. We are pouring millions into schools and here are magnificent buildings which are not fully utilised and some of our children have not any accommodation during the holiday periods.
Every Deputy knows of the different organisations who will come to him asking him to subscribe to a particular club so that they can provide facilities for those kids. An opportunity should be given of using this leisure time by attending lectures or something else in those schools. There is a tremendous exciting potentiality in this regard. Career guidance and things like that could be given and it could be followed up with adult education. We have not supplied enough community centres or recreational facilities either in built-up areas or in rural areas. It is all right to be talking about the flight from the land, but with television and everything else, it is the old story of "how you goin' to keep them down on the farm now that they've seen Paree." It is all right saying that there is a living on the land, but night must fall.
There are parts of Ireland where there are some fine factories but there is all female employment in some of them. If you have not the boys, the girls will go. They will go and settle where the men are. We want an Ireland more than anything else where industry is geared to a high male labour content. Then, take the modern family house. In some of our houses, it is not possible to bring in friends. The parents like the children to bring their friends back but they like to have a party and this has to be organised for them. A lot of children would like to buy those modern records but they are too expensive for them. They all like to be together but there is not any place for them.
The reason I dwell on this so long is that we all feel so strongly about it. God knows in relation to some of our modern dance halls the less I say about them with regard to the spiritual and physical health of our people the better it is. We also know that young persons are not supposed to go into dance halls if they are under 18 but children throughout the world are maturing earlier and and the rule is openly flaunted. I would not blame the proprietors because you would not know sometimes what age some of those individuals are. You would not know whether they were dwarfs or old men.
There is no organised recreation for our children between the ages of 14 and 18. I do not apologise for spending all this time on this matter on the Education Estimate. I hope at the end if it this will sink in and I hope it will excite comment, discussion and debate by Deputies in all the rural areas because it can do so much good. Then you have people hitch-hiking to these dances. Some of the girls over 21 think their chance has gone and that all the dance halls are filled with young people. Bearing in mind adult education, I do not confine the utilisation of these school buildings to young people alone. I would have some rooms for the old people where they could watch television and meet their friends so that there would be a preservation of the community and parish spirit and a coming-together.
It is like the philosophy of industry in rural Ireland, particularly in the West. I think I cited on one occasion going down to Cornamona to visit an all Irish-speaking vocational school. In the evenings, they had adults taking classes: everything was through Irish. In the daytime, they had may be 30 boys and girls together there in a beautiful school with equipment, and so on. Then, when they reached 16 years of age, or so, off with them to Chicago, New York, and London. I remember coming back to Dublin in the car that night. I do not think any single thing agitated my mind as much as the thought, "Could we not get an industry there, a little place built on to that school, where the children from the vocational school, in co-operation with the trade unionists, could become apprenticed and, when they had their apprenticeship served in the factory attached to that school, the family could be preserved and the principle of building-up the family unit in rural Ireland could be developed." That was the thought that was all the time in my mind that evening.
It is all right to talk about the Irish language and all these other most commendable things but these are facts, and realistic facts, and I think the answer is there. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle knows of a city close to parts of which are small holdings. People from those small holdings go into the city on bicycles, motorcycles, scooters and in cars and get employment at Shannon and other areas— thank God, although it is not enough —and they come home in the evening to the small holdings. They are living at home and bringing in a few pounds every week. If they were not doing that, the holdings would be uneconomic. They are preserving the unity of the family. The boys are working and so are the girls and they are bringing money home. This is the philosophy which hinges on education and leisure. There are people emigrating from Ireland today, we all know it, throwing up good jobs, because there is nothing to do in the evenings— nothing to do.
Some clubs have been started— what they call "clubs"—but they are grossly overcrowded. I would say to every Deputy, every elected representative and all those wonderful people who do voluntary work that if any of them who are interested in fostering youth activities feel that my Department might be reluctant to sanction the use of halls, they need have no fear in that regard. If any of them fear that my Department might be reluctant to do so—and I say this to the school managers, to the vocational education committees, to the owners of schools and I say it to everybody from the highest down—they need have no fear in that regard. It would achieve a great deal for our youth, our young people. I see these halls lying idle for so long. They could be utilised for concerts, films, indoor amusements, billiards. They could have a little tea and mineral bar. There could be a lounge with television. Sports grounds are attached to almost all our schools. Frequently, there are playing-fields close to such halls. I am thinking of the desirability of facilities for boxing, physical training and so on.
There was just one other point. I did not mention it to anybody. However, as we are looking into this whole matter, it is no harm to consider it also. Look at our boarding-schools throughout Ireland and consider the long months they are closed. We have all paid for those, too. The Irish taxpayer has paid. I do not deny at any time that great sacrifices were made by religious orders down through the years to provide education for our people. As a matter of fact, we should not have the educational system we have today were it not for their sacrifices and the sacrifices of others. I have had my clashes with them. They were very necessary. I had some "reluctant debutantes." But, by and large, I cannot speak too highly of the work the religious have done in the country for our education.
However, on the question of the non-utilisation of schools, I would point out that there are children in Ireland who never have a holiday. I know there are children who have never seen the sea but there are children in Ireland who have never had a holiday. Everybody does not have to go to the sea. His Lordship of Ossory, Dr. Birch, has made considerable strides in a limited way. With the voluntary committee, he has helped to give some children a little holiday.
From an educational point of view, an urban bias is a most dangerous thing in Ireland: it would be bad that our youth should think only in terms of life in the city. We must educate our children, through civics and otherwise, to realise that children from urban areas and children from rural areas are complementary. Children from rural Ireland come to Dublin to visit the National Museum, the National Gallery, and other places of interest. The process should work in reverse, too, and city children should be enabled to visit rural areas. Consider the tremendous impression that would be created in the formative minds of children from Dublin on going to the West and visiting these historic areas and having a holiday in the beautiful boarding-schools which are now closed-up for the long hot summer and some of which have not alone playing fields but swimming pools. Can Deputies imagine the excitement that would be created in the minds of some of the kids from the cities, and the thrill they would experience, when they found themselves having a holiday in the country in beautiful conditions? Above all, it would give our Irish urban children an opportunity of seeing what rural Ireland is really like, what makes it tick, its problems.
I remember speaking to one of the heads of a certain school. I shall not tell the House where the school is but, if I did, Deputies would appreciate the look on the face of the person to whom I was speaking when I answered his question. He had asked me: "What would it please you most to do with our boarding-schools?" I replied: "You have a very big boarding-school which is very highly thought of throughout the country. If I had my way, I would put itinerant children into it during the long hot summer— with the consent of their parents." That was the end of that conversation.
We are all aware of the itinerant problem and of the plight of our itinerant children: it agitates our minds. In a certain area a local committee helped tremendously. Then one of the Wards died down in Galway. The children had been at school for five weeks. The children had been the funeral. The funeral took another two weeks. The children had been doing very well. They were remarkable children, capable of picking up points very quickly. They were taught for another seven weeks but then there was a fair below in Kerry, and off they were again. That took another three weeks.
Those are the difficulties. It is all right for people to speak about this on television. I would love to see some of those children attend a type of boarding school with the consent of their parents. You have to have an opportunity of getting to them. Schools nowadays are not playing the big part they did in the past. Family environment now counts more than anything else—television, the home, the parents themselves. It all goes back to Father Ryan's Social Dynamite— family environment, bright children going back to appalling conditions in the home. It is very hard to educate in a caravan, going back there in the night.
This problem of the education of itinerant children is not one I am trying to avoid. I acknowledge the efforts being made by the clergy and other members of the public to improve the lot of these children. My Department will give all the help it can and co-operate in any way possible. I am afraid the progress is slow. There is no single solution to the problem. We just have to continue to examine the position in each area. It is one case where ad hoc arrangements will just have to be made to suit local circumstances.
There was reference to the question of free books for post-primary schools. I pointed out in my opening speech that the number of pupils coming within the scheme of free education was greater than we thought. We thought it would be 75 per cent but in the event 92 per cent have come in. Furthermore, the percentage of pupils who qualified for free books was higher than had been expected. Therefore, it has been necessary to make additional sums available for the scheme. This is being done by way of Supplementary Estimate to be moved later, with the permission of the House.
Deputy Lindsay criticised me and said that as the percentage of children getting free books was so high, why not go the whole way and give them to everyone. This is not necessary. The national average is 25 per cent of the children. Indeed, there will have to be improvements in the administration of the scheme. I do not think my decisions as to the working of it were entirely sound. I appreciate the extra burden I have thrown on many of the principal teachers in trying to do the very difficult task of assessing who is entitled. But this is a growing pain. The basis has been laid and I hope next year the position will improve. When Deputy Lindsay wants free books for all, I would like to remind him that in the Fine Gael scheme he quoted, they forgot about books altogether.
There is one group of pupils I did not refer to in relation to the scheme of free education, that is, pupils whose homes are situated in areas outside the range of transport. These pupils are not large in number. They can only avail of post-primary education in boarding schools because no post-primary schools are available in their area and they are outside the transport range of 15 miles. I promised special assistance in those cases and I will announce the details of this assistance shortly. This refers to children in the islands and other isolated areas. It would be uneconomical to bring schools to them and it is far more sensible economically to help them go to boarding schools. I believe only about 1,000 children are involved.
With regard to this question of old, unsuitable substandard schools, I mentioned that in my opening statement. Undoubtedly, it is a problem and I have referred to it previously in no uncertain manner. But it is a problem that can very easily be exaggerated into enormous proportions. If we all got it into our heads for a start that in relation to the requirements of modern education small schools are just doomed, we would be a long way towards solving our problems. That does not mean I have adopted this policy of scrubbing the lot across the board. Deputies know there are extenuating circumstances in certain cases, transition periods and so forth. But if we do appreciate that small schools are out, the first result will be that all the interested parties will stop dragging their heels and we can get on immediately towards enlarging what will be in fact central schools and providing them with basic amenities. Given these conditions, a programme can be mounted which will break the back of this problem.
In regard to the dialogue between the INTO and the Managers Association going on in the papers at present, in fairness it must be said that in the final analysis it is the Minister for Education who is responsible to ensure that these insanitary hovels are made good. This is a big task. It is all right to say the managers are responsible for this. I have certain rights when I see a manager is not doing his job. If this position were to obtain and continue without any likelihood of the 700 or 800 schools being repaired and brought into proper condition within a reasonable period, then I would have to take drastic action myself. What I am trying to say is that, in the final analysis, the Minister for Education is responsible, and if he does not do certain things, then he is shirking his responsibilities. The success of such a programme which I mention here will depend on the full co-operation of all concerned. I seek in that regard the co-operation of Deputies from all sides of the House, and I would ask them not to lend themselves to agitation to have outmoded one-and two-teacher schools retained.
When I say that, I am not criticising Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins' very eminently sound speech which she made last night, or the speech of Deputy Donnellan. People are quite entitled to talk on something in which they genuinely believe. I have in mind the agitation to retain outmoded one-and two-teacher schools, and in that connection I should like to remind Deputy Treacy who waxed so eloquently on Mullinahone and its associations with Charles Kickham and on other schools in his area, that his own Party expressed itself in full agreement with the policy of securing larger national school units. I am surprised that he should be running around Tipperary associating himself with a shortsighted agitation to keep some of these small schools open. I can assure him that in the long run the parents will not thank him at all. They will learn very quickly—we have evidence that they have learned where it has happened—the value and the benefits of the larger school to the educational needs of the child.
There were Deputies advocating the granting of extern degrees by our universities here and their suggestions merit full consideration.
I did not refer to it here because I have not much to say about it, but it is a very important issue which we cannot ignore indefinitely, that is, the non-utilisation of our national television service for educational matters. I think I said some time ago that I had evidence of some countries who rushed into utilising their national television service for educational purposes without any examination in depth, and those countries, European countries, were the first to admit that they were wrong and they should have given a lot of consideration to it. Both from the point of view of our schools and the great potential for god in education that RTE could do, we are examining this very assiduously and in detail, and when we have certain recommendations I shall give the House an opportunity of discussing them. We had some programmes——
