Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Jun 1968

Vol. 235 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Standard Time Bill, 1968: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Moran)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The Bill provides for what is popularly known as "summer time all the year round". Its object is to bring the time observed in this country into line with that observed in Western Europe. The British Government have introduced a similar Bill.

If our own internal situation alone was in question, there would be no strong reason for adopting the proposal in the Bill. We are one of the three European countries that are wholly west of Greenwich and, accordingly, our "natural" time is behind that of Europe as a whole. The extension of summer time throughout the winter can have some disadvantages in that the normal working day will begin in darkness during some months of the year. We cannot, however, consider this country in isolation when dealing with the problem of time. The advantages of observing the same system as our close neighbours, with whom the great bulk of our international commercial dealings are done, are enormous and self-evident.

The views of interested organisations and individuals on this subject were invited several months ago when the British decision was known. The vast majority of the organisations, which included industrial and employers' organisations, chambers of commerce and semi-State bodies, were in favour of the adoption of the same system of time as Britain and Western Europe. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions indicated that it would not object to the adoption of that system. There was no marked response to the invitation from individual members of the public. About 130 letters were received from individuals, of which about 70 were in favour of the European system. In the circumstances, it seems fair to deduce that the weight of opinion is in favour of the Bill.

The Government have sought to interpret public opinion on this matter and to assess what the best interests of the country require. It seems to them that, despite some disadvantages, adoption of the same system of time as that observed in the rest of Western Europe is, on balance, the best course to follow.

The Bill, accordingly, provides for a new standard time, one hour in advance of Greenwich mean time, and for the repeal of the existing legislation on the subject of time. The Acts proposed to be repealed include the basic Statutes (Definition of Time) Act, 1880, which, as amended by the Time (Ireland) Act, 1916, makes Greenwich mean time the standard time in this country. The Summer Time Act, 1925, is also proposed to be repealed.

I should point out that a Government amendment to the British Bill proposes that it should run initially for a period of three years only. If at the end of that period the British decide to introduce a change, we shall have to look at our position again. Subsection (2) of section 1 of the Bill provides for the construction of the expression "summer time" in enactments. The Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1962, provides that licensed premises may remain open until 11.30 p.m. on week-days in the period of summer time and the provision in the Bill is intended to preserve the status quo in that regard when summer time as such is abolished by the new legislation. I commend this Bill to the House as a reasonable measure, taken after public opinion has been tested, and as one which has no party or political significance.

Mr. P. Byrne

I am very disappointed that the Minister has not adverted to the effects this change will have on schoolchildren. By way of elaboration, I want to refer to a report of what I regard as a very serious criticism of this measure which appeared in the Sunday Press of March 10th last. It was a report of criticism by the Director of Dunsink Observatory, Professor Weimar, who pointed out that this change is a very different development for this country in contrast to Britain and places further east. The Minister knows that the sun rises in the east and sinks in the west. Because of that phenomenon, it will remain dark in the mornings in November, December and January much later than will be the case in Britain and in Western Europe. Professor Weimar in the report to which I have referred made a comparison between Sligo and Munich. On the shortest day of the year, the sun rises in Munich at 8.05 a.m. In Dublin, under this new system, it will rise at 9.41 a.m. and in Belmullet, it will rise at two minutes past ten. I am concerned about the impact of this on schoolchildren, particularly small children. We do not want these out at 9.30 a.m. in pitch dark trying to find their way to school.

I should like to hear from the Minister if he consulted with the Department of Education and I should like to know whether it will be possible to arrange for schools, particularly those catering for the very young, to open after sunrise. The Lord knows, there are enough lunatics on the road these days and enough tragic accidents without our tempting Providence by having very young children out on the roads, trying to find their way to school, in pitch dark.

I have made my point. The Director of Dunsink has expressed himself as far from satisfied with this step. Is it, I wonder, absolutely necessary for us to follow Britain in this particular matter? I know that, if we do not fall into line, we will have a problem in regard to the Border. But this is a case of the tail wagging the dog; the greater good of the greatest number might well demand that we put up with the inconvenience of having to change our timepieces when we cross the Border. I doubt if that inconvenience would affect a great number of people. I am very concerned about the people in my constituency who are worried about their children.

It is not for me to debate the impact of this on rural Ireland. The Minister represents a rural constituency and, as a Deputy, apart from being Minister for Justice, he may have a different outlook on this particular measure. I suspect it will not appeal to his constituents. I doubt if they will be very enthusiastic about this change. I am not speaking now for my Party and this is a purely personal opinion: I believe there are many disadvantages in this particular step. I could see some point in waiting a year, or two, to see how it works in Britain and Northern Ireland before we blindly follow suit.

Mr. Moran

This Bill was drafted after as much consultation as could be achieved with those mainly concerned. I have a substantial list of bodies which expressed views on this matter. They include Chambers of Commerce, Aer Lingus, business organisations, a branch of the GAA, the Federated Union of Employers, the Federation of Trade Associations, the Dental Association, and so on. Only two bodies opposed the measure—Clare County Council and the Limerick branch of the NFA. I have no doubt the latter will follow their own time, whether it is two hours in front or behind Greenwich Mean Time or four hours behind Iceland. Indeed, I am sure that policy will apply in rural Ireland; there they will work out a time to suit themselves in conjunction with the creameries, and so on.

Mr. L'Estrange

What time will Clare County Council follow?

Mr. Moran

I do not know what motivated Clare County Council in their opposition to this. Probably it was what I call "rural reasons". Clare people, of course, have views of their own on most subjects and it is only natural that they should have views of their own on this particular one.

The desirability of having uniformity in time will be obvious to everybody. I have pointed out that the other two countries, along with Ireland, wholly west of Greenwich are Portugal and Iceland. Portugal is on Central European Time, like every other country in Western Europe. Geographically speaking, Iceland is a considerable distance further west and it might be very difficult for Iceland to come in, but Iceland is the only odd man out. From the point of view of convenience, particularly in relation to business, it is desirable that we should have uniformity with Europe.

With regard to schoolchildren, I do not think there will be any great difference between, say, Liverpool and Dublin. I believe the difference is approximately 15 or 20 minutes. If there is difficulty or if there is objection about school hours, that is a matter that can be solved by the Department of Education and the school authorities. I do not know that there is any compelling reason, unless they want to do so, why they should follow the standard time as laid down here. I want to tell the Deputy that, contrary to what he suggests, there seem to be reasons why this new arrangement should be followed. The Department of Education, like every other Department, were consulted in connection with the drafting of this measure and the advice I got from them was that:

Under the present time arrangements, children travel during the winter months from their homes to transport collection points in morning light and travel the reverse journey in evening darkness. The position would be reversed by the introduction of the new standard time, a measure which could offer the possibility of a brief playtime after school for the younger children.

That seems to be the completely opposite view to the one expressed by Deputy Byrne.

Mr. P. Byrne

I am speaking of very small children who spend about four hours in school and would leave school about 1.30 or 2 p.m.

Mr. Moran

Anyway, this is the official view expressed on this measure by the Department of Education after being consulted. Evidently they thought that the new standard time hours would be desirable. They possibly were thinking of the older children, not the very tiny tots to whom Deputy Byrne refers.

I do not see any reason why different hours, if they were felt to be more suitable, should not be adopted by schools. There is no reason why this should not be done. I have no doubt that even in rural area in many instances the people will make their own time to suit their own particular needs irrespective of what we may say here.

The only significance of the section dealing with the licensing laws is to preserve the status quo. I do not think it desirable that we should have a discussion on the licensing laws in a measure of this kind. There will be another opportunity for the House to deal with different aspects of that matter. What this Bill is doing is preserving the existing licensing laws both in summer and winter except that it will go back to what was the original summer time, that is, from about mid-April to the beginning of October. As Deputies are aware, summer time was varied in Britain for the last few years. But the provision in the Bill is for what was originally regarded as the natural summer time period, which was from about mid-April to early October.

Mr. P. Belton

Will there be specific dates given for April and October? It will not fluctuate at all?

Mr. Moran

Yes. It is defined in this particular section. There will be no variation outside this unless and until the House considers the licensing laws as a whole.

I do not know that it is necessary for me to say anything further. The British have brought in an amendment regarding an experimental repeal of three years. They have a problem of parliamentary time there. I think that is the reason for that. There is no necessity for us to do that. If any change becomes necessary, we can introduce a further Bill when the time comes if we feel that it is necessary to do so. What we are doing here is making the same law here as will now be the law in the whole of Western Europe with the exception of Iceland.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee and received for final consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. P. Byrne

I will just repeat my request to the Minister. I appreciate all that he has said. He read out an extensive list of people who had been consulted. It did not include the INTO, the Association of Secondary Teachers or the Clerical Managers' Association. I would appreciate it if he would consider the desirability of considering the point I made in respect of school hours around the period of December-January. I am aware that there are Dublin parents who are worried about this.

Mr. Moran

I will undertake to the Deputy that before the matter goes to the Seanad I will have another look at this. I want to assure him and the House that there were advertisements inserted for comment from all and sundry in connection with this matter. I should imagine that if the bodies to which the Deputy has referred felt they should oppose this measure they would have made representations. For that reason I feel that they must have been satisfied or at least have had no objection to the proposed change.

What I want to check on is what I have said to the Deputy. I am quite sure that there is, in fact, no reason why, notwithstanding the passage of this Bill, special rules or regulations should not be made in schools dealing with the tiny tots to whom the Deputy has referred. I shall check on that.

Mr. P. Byrne

I am obliged to the Minister.

Question put and agreed to.