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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Mar 1970

Vol. 245 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 37: Agriculture.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £8,938,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1970, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain subsidies and sundry grants-in-aid.

The net amount of this Supplementary Estimate added to the original Estimate for 1969-70 represents a total net provision of £66,411,000. This figure shows an increase of £9,587,500 on the final total Estimate for Agriculture, including the Supplementary Estimate, for 1968-69. The sum of £66.4 million includes £36½ million for price support, of which milk accounts for £31 million. It also includes £19 million for agricultural development grant schemes: £3 million for disease eradication; £3 million for agricultural education and advisory services and £2½ million for research.

The additional sum now required includes £4 million for milk; over £1 million for lime and fertiliser subsidies; £1 million for payments to the Pigs and Bacon Commission; £900,000 for the beef cattle incentive scheme; £790,000 for the calved heifer scheme; £525,000 (net) for bovine tuberculosis scheme; £500,000 to meet losses on disposal of wheat; £350,000 for grants for the glasshouse industry; £224,000 for the land project and £177,000 for the farm building scheme. A net saving of £250,000 is expected under the beef, mutton and lamb export guarantee schemes and a further net saving of £331,000 under the brucellosis eradication scheme.

The first item I shall deal with is support for creamery milk—the most costly item. The original Estimate provision was £27 million and a further £4.061 million is included in the Supplementary Estimate, making a total provision of £31.061 million.

The amount provided by the Exchequer for creamery milk support has risen at a very sharp rate in recent years. In the last financial year it was £25.4 million; in 1967-68 it was £19.3 million; in the year before that it was £13.7 million and in 1964-65 it was £8.2 million. Thus, it has almost quadrupled in five years. This shows what the Government have done and are doing for the dairying industry and those who are most vocal in their criticism of every new step taken by the Government to assist the industry should pause to reflect on the vast contribution being made by the Exchequer to the industry's total income. They should note in particular that the Exchequer is paying an average of about 1s 2d on every gallon of milk delivered to creameries in the current year.

Of the total provision of over £31 million, about £17¼ million is required for payment of milk price allowances to suppliers of milk to creameries and just over £3 million is needed to meet the cost of the special quality allowance on all creamery milk that passes the quality test. These two allowances make up a total of over £20¼ million which is payable, through the creameries, direct to the farmers who supply creamery milk. However, this is not the full picture. About £10¾ million more is paid from the Exchequer to Bord Bainne towards the board's export losses, and this large sum is reflected in the prices paid by the board to creameries for butter and to manufacturers for cheese, whole milk powder, chocolate crumb and other dairy products. While the allowances paid direct from my Department to the creameries are shown in the monthly returns to producers, the benefit of the £10¾ million paid through Bord Bainne is not readily apparent. However, it is reflected in the butterfat price received by the producer. The overall position is in fact that about half of the total cash received by creamery producers for their milk now comes from the Exchequer.

As the increasing costs of milk production have been bearing more heavily on the small and medium-scale producers than on the large producers, the Government decided in October last that the Exchequer support for the creamery milk price should be adjusted on a tiered basis. A price increase on their entire production was given to the 80 per cent of producers who supply less than 7,000 gallons per year. Those supplying between 7,000 and 14,000 gallons received an increase on a gradually declining scale. Those supplying between 14,000 and 20,000 gallons neither gained nor lost and only the 2½ per cent of producers supplying more than 20,000 gallons a year had to bear a phased reduction. These latter producers have advantages of scale resulting in lower unit costs. The advantage in production costs of a supplier of, say, 60,000 gallons compared with those of a 7,000 gallon supplier far outweighs the difference in the new rates of support. There are, of course, other considerations also. The relative income position of the larger suppliers is much better than that of the smaller suppliers. The cost of subsidising the larger suppliers has been mounting steadily. All extra milk produced has practically to be given away in export markets; I shall say more about this in a moment. The beef cattle incentive scheme is available to anyone who decides to switch from milk to beef. Furthermore, if the adjustments had not been made, it would not have been possible to increase the price for the small and medium-scale suppliers who constitute the great majority. As I have already stated publicly, I make no apology for giving special consideration to the smaller producers. The principle of channelling a larger share of State support for milk to the traditional supplier is not new. It has long been accepted by farm organisations. It was very much NFA Council policy as long ago as 1962. In that year the then president of that organisation had this to say in his message to readers of the NFA Year Book. I quote:

"We must attach special importance to the decision of Council ....that all future subventions to agriculture wherever practicable must be applied so as to be of maximum benefit to the smaller farms, and must diminish progressively on a sliding scale as the size of the enterprise increases."

Before leaving the subject of the support adjustments I might add that last autumn the Government also gave a retrospective increase of 1d per gallon to all suppliers on the first 1,000 gallons per month supplied in the period May to August.

The total creamery intake in 1969 at 527 million gallons was 7 million gallons above 1968 and was an all-time record. It would have been even higher were it not for the drought conditions experienced in the autumn. Deliveries in 1970, given reasonable weather conditions, may exceed the 550 million gallon target which we set for ourselves in the Second Programme.

The increasing level of milk production and the depressed state of world markets for dairy products are reflected in the cost of the Exchequer contributions towards meeting the export losses of An Bord Bainne. The world market situation for dairy products is little short of chaotic. Huge stocks in the EEC overhang the markets, and the outlook for the immediate future is anything but encouraging. Most of our sales of butter in foreign markets in the current financial year have been made at little more than give-away prices. For example, we have had to sell thousands of tons of butter at less than a shilling per lb. which, when allowance is made for manufacturing and other costs, represents only a few pence per gallon for the butterfat of the milk concerned. In view, however, of the vital position of dairying in our agricultural industry and having regard to the importance of milk production to many thousands of our farmers, the Government continue to provide an increasingly high level of support for creamery milk.

While on the subject of Exchequer support for creamery milk, I should like to refer to the milk which is surplus to the requirements of the liquid trade in the Dublin and Cork Milk Boards' areas. A working surplus is necessary to ensure that consumer milk requirements are fully met throughout the year despite the fluctuations which normally occur in supply and demand. Heretofore, the cost of disposing of this surplus was financed mainly by the Exchequer. However, as the surplus is an integral and essential part of the liquid trade operations I have arranged, as I announced in January, that the disposal of the surplus will in future be financed from funds derived by the Dublin and Cork Milk Boards from a levy on all sales of liquid milk in their respective areas. These new arrangements will have only a negligible effect on the Exchequer bill for creamery milk support in the current financial year but in a full year they should yield a saving to the Exchequer of the order of £300,000. At present these new arrangements are being applied only to the surplus of the liquid trade in Dublin and Cork. The application of a somewhat similar arrangement to the surpluses of the liquid trade in other areas would present certain problems but these are being examined with a view to securing further relief for the Exchequer, if possible.

I should like to refer here also to the need for reorganisation and rationalisation of the creamery industry if it is to meet the keen competition expected to continue in world markets in the years ahead and if our milk producers are to obtain the maximum returns. The question of rationalisation has been receiving serious consideration by many co-operative creamery societies throughout the country and significant progress has already been made. In order to assist further progress, I have approved of negotiations for the transfer of some of the interests of the Dairy Disposal Company to co-operative ownership in the context of overall reorganisation and rationalisation of the creamery structure in the areas concerned. Rationalisation proposals have, of course, to be most carefully examined by creamery societies from the social aspect as well as from the economic aspect. In this connection I have already announced my intention to establish an independent group to evaluate any proposed scheme for creamery rationalisation from both aspects, where it is clear that some of the interests involved have cogent reasons for objecting to the scheme.

The calved heifer scheme terminated on 30th June, 1969. A provision of £200,000 was made for it in the Estimate. However, there was a remarkable surge of interest in the scheme in its final few months. The number of applications received from January to June, 1969 was 26,530 compared with 16,005 in the corresponding period in 1968. No doubt the greatly improved prospects for the cattle trade and the introduction of the beef cattle incentive scheme contributed to this. The result is that the grants this year will amount to about £940,000. Miscellaneous expenses bring the total provision to £990,000.

When the scheme was announced as part of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, the target set was an increase in our cow numbers from 1,322,000 in 1963 to 1,700,000. In June, 1969, with a cow population of about 1,655,000 we had practically achieved the target and there is potential for a further increase this year.

In my speech on the 1968-69 Estimate I made a preliminary announcement on the introduction of the beef cattle incentive scheme which is aimed at encouraging beef production by providing grants to herdowners registered under the bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme who do not sell milk or milk products. Herdowners selling milk or milk products, who are prepared to switch over entirely to beef production, may, of course, apply to participate in the scheme. A grant of £12 is paid each year under the scheme for each cow, in excess of two, which is present at two consecutive inspections and is matched by a calf.

The scheme met with a ready response in its first year of operation. Around 36,000 herdowners had applied in time to have their herds inspected at the first round of inspections which took place in June. These herds were again inspected in September and payment of grants to eligible herdowners has since taken place.

The sum provided for this scheme in subhead K.29 of the main Estimate was £1,000,000. When that Estimate was drawn up, the grant proposed was £8 per cow. Subsequently, however, following representations from farmers' organisations and committees of agriculture, I increased the grant to £12. A a result of the impetus given to the scheme by the increased rate of grant it is estimated that grants to herdowners for the year 1969-70 will come to close on £1.9 million, the extra £900,000 to be provided for in the Supplementary Estimate. A large proportion of the £1.9 million will go to the small men in the western areas.

I referred at the outset to a saving on meat subsidy payments. This saving reflects the higher level of market prices. In 1969 the cattle trade continued buoyant. Demand for cattle and beef was steady and prices generally were higher than in 1968 which was itself a very good year. Our exports of store cattle to Britain and the Six Counties were at a rather lower level than in 1968. However, in view of the record level of total cattle numbers in 1969, the somewhat lower level of exports was not due to any shortage of supplies. The tightness and cost of credit in Britain seem to have been one of the major causes of the lower British demand for stores. Export slaughterings of bullocks and heifers were well maintained. Following the increase in the British guaranteed price for cattle for 1969-70, the Government decided to increase the level of support for our carcase beef exports to Britain by approximately 2d. per lb. deadweight. Because of the good market price situation in Britain the level of the guarantee payments under the fatstock guarantee scheme there and, consequently, the level of our expenditure on the carcase beef export support payments will be lower in 1969-70 by about £500,000 than was originally estimated. Exchequer expenditure will, nevertheless, be very substantially above what it would have been if the support level had not been increased in March last. Because of the lower level of the British guarantee payments the amount payable by the British Government under the Free Trade Area Agreement on imports of Irish carcase meat up to 25,000 tons will also be down by £250,000.

The carcase beef industry has, of course, been making an important contribution to the national economy for many years. The industry was developed without financial assistance from the State but in 1965 a temporary scheme of support for exports to Britain was introduced to assist the meat exporters who at the time were finding it difficult to obtain adequate supplies of fat cattle. This scheme was put on a more permanent basis in July, 1966, when the Free Trade Area Agreement came into operation. The agreement provided in effect that the British Government would pay us the British guarantee payment on 25,000 tons of Irish beef per annum. The agreement did not specify how this money should be used but it was agreed between the two Governments that it could be applied in continuation of the previously existing beef export support. The Irish Exchequer has, of course, been supporting a far larger quantity of beef than the 25,000 tons per annum supported from the funds provided by the British Government under the Free Trade Area Agreement. In the current financial year, for instance, exports of beef to Britain are likely to be in the region of about 75,000 tons and support for 50,000 tons of this will be provided by the Irish Exchequer.

These support payments have greatly improved the competitive position of the meat factories whose only competitor now is the store cattle exporter whereas previously they had to compete against the shipper of live fat cattle also. It has been suggested in certain quarters that our rate of support should always be the same as the guarantee payment in Britain. However, while British feeders of Irish stores get the full guarantee payment from the British Exchequer and although the greater part of this money may come back to the Irish store cattle producer, some portion of it is retained by the British feeder. The fact that our support here does not match exactly the British level of support has not had an adverse effect on the throughput of the meat factories. Indeed, in the ten months since the beginning of the current fatstock year in April last up to the end of January, the factories slaughtered 35,000 bullocks and heifers more than in the corresponding period of 1968-69 whereas exports of store cattle were at a lower level. In the nine months April to December, 1969, the number of store cattle exported was 67,600 head lower than in the same period in 1968.

It has also been suggested that no cattle should be allowed to be exported alive. This suggestion seems to me to ignore the interests of producers. I cannot see how the best interests of producers would be served by termination of the store cattle trade which earned over £45 million in 1968 and nearly £43 million in 1969. As experience in 1966 and 1967 showed, the existence of competitive outlets is the producer's assurance of the best possible prices for his cattle.

Late in 1968 the US Government introduced allocations arranged on a multilateral voluntary basis for imports of beef into the United States during 1969 from all the substantial supplying countries, including Ireland. Our beef exports to the US which consist almost entirely of frozen cow beef for manufacturing purposes, amounted to about 25,000 tons in 1968. Under the arrangements for 1969 Ireland was originally allocated 28,000 tons but this figure was subsequently increased to 28,800 tons as a result of the redistribution of a shortfall in imports into the US from another supplying country. Similar arrangements will also apply in respect of imports of meat into the US during 1970 and our allocation for the year is 29,240 tons.

The EEC market continues to remain closed for all practical purposes to our cattle and beef. Throughout 1969 levies were in operation continuously and at times reached the equivalent of about £55 per head on top of which there is a duty of 16 per cent, as well as heavy transport and other costs. In this kind of situation it is not surprising that our exports to the EEC have been at a virtual standstill. Efforts to secure some concession from the Community and member States for Irish cattle and beef were continued but without success. We have drawn particular attention to our concern that any concession granted to a third country should be extended to us and we have not hesitated to press our case strongly in the Community and with member States.

Coras Beostoic agus Feola, which was established by me at the beginning of 1969 to promote exports of cattle, sheep and lambs and meat, has been active in promoting exports. The commission is now getting into its stride and I look forward to its achieving impressive results to the advantage of both producers and exporters.

Despite incentives to increased production of sheep and lambs and despite the relatively good prices during recent years, sheep numbers have continued to decline. To a great extent this decline reflects the relative profitability of competing agricultural enterprises and it is significant that the decline seems to have occurred mainly in the lowlands. Exports of carcase lamb to the Continent exceeded exports to Britain for the first time during 1968 and this was the position also in 1969.

The mountain lamb subsidy scheme was continued in 1969 and again proved very successful. In the current financial year approximately £424,000 has been paid in subsidy at the rate of £1 per lamb to mountain sheep farmers. As Deputies are already aware, the same rate of subsidy was extended in 1969 to hogget ewes and payments amount to about £171,000 bringing total subsidy payments to about £595,000. Miscellaneous expenses connected with the schemes bring the total outlay to £600,000 in round figures.

As a means of stimulating production the extension of the subsidy to hogget ewes should have effects reaching beyond the mountain areas. It should lead to younger more productive ewes being retained in mountain flocks and the older less productive ewes being removed to the lowlands where they can be profitably used for further breeding.

I might mention here a development of interest to pony breeders—the holding by the Connemara Pony Breeders' Society of an international conference in Galway next August. This is the first venture of its kind. It will bring Connemara Pony Societies from all countries together and I am providing in the Supplementary Estimate for a grant of £1,000 towards the cost of the conference.

The total provision for pigmeat support in the current financial year is £3.6 million, as compared with actual expenditure of £2.95 million in 1968-69.

The year 1969 was a good one for pig producers. Deliveries of pigs to bacon factories reached a new record level of 1,936,000 exceeding the previous record in 1965 by 139,000. Prices for both weaners and finished pigs were buoyant throughout the year.

When it was announced in November, 1968, that the floor price for barley of the 1969 crop would be increased by 3/- per barrel, it was indicated that an appropriate adjustment would be made in the guaranteed minimum prices for pigs in the autumn of 1969. This was done. We also made some necessary grading changes, reducing the maximum weight for all grades and amalgamating two of the medium grades. The reduction in the maximum weight of the export grades from 160 lb deadweight to 150 lb was necessary so as to bring the weight of Irish bacon sides into line with our competitors' bacon on the British market. We had also in mind the desirability of lessening any incentive to smuggle pigs from the Six Counties where the maximum weight for good quality pigs for some time past has been 145 lbs.

As Deputies are aware, a multilateral understanding governs the supply of bacon to the British market. Our quota for the 1970-71 quota year is 28,180 tons, the same as for 1969-70. With record pig slaughterings we were able to find export markets for substantial quantities of pork in the past year and the Pigs and Bacon Commission sent substantial supplies not only to the traditional British out-let, where the bulk of Irish pork is sold and where it commands a premium price, but to Italy, Hungary, Canada, Switzerland, Norway and Japan. In many of those markets the returns were appreciably better than those for pork and bacon exports to Britain. However, while we welcome these marketing de-developments, it should not be assumed that we have unlimited and remunerative outlets abroad for our pigmeat production. The fact is that there was a lower level of pig production on the Continent during the past year, apparently as part of the normal evolution of a pig cycle. Production in many of the Continental countries is now increasing but I feel confident that the Pigs and Bacon Commission will be able to retain its footing in some of its new markets, particularly as Irish pork has met with ready acceptance as a high quality product in those markets.

While testing under the bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme continues on much the same pattern as in previous years, my Department has been making a big effort to stamp out the remaining sources of the disease. This, it is hoped, will lead to a substantial reduction in incidence in future years. In the current financial year the provision in the main Estimate will be exceeded, due mainly to an increase in the number and cost of reactor animals to be purchased. The Supplementary Estimate includes provision for the extra expenditure.

As Deputies are aware, County Donegal was declared a brucellosis-free area in June, 1968. Four more counties, namely, Cavan, Leitrim, Monaghan and Sligo have now been added to the brucellosis-free area. The further extension of the eradication scheme is at present under examination. The Supplementary Estimate takes account of an expected net saving of over £300,000.

It had been anticipated that the incidence of warble infestation in 1969 would have been at much the same level as in 1968 when approximately 160,000 cattle were treated. In the event, the number treated was about 400,000. The increase in incidence can be attributed to the fact that in 1968 the dressing campaign got off to a late start because of the foot and mouth precautions in the early part of that year. As a result warbles had emerged in large numbers before the affected animals could be treated. It is to be hoped that the extensive dressing coverage provided in 1969 will have reduced warble infestation to an insignificant level again but this will not be known until later in the spring. Should it transpire that pockets of infestation remain these will have to get special attention. I would stress, however, that the fullest co-operation of all herdowners is needed if our efforts to eradicate this injurious pest are to succeed.

As the House is aware, there was a large surplus of wheat over the milling requirement from the 1968 harvest. This surplus had to be disposed of as animal feed and the Exchequer had to bear the cost as no wheat levy operated in that year. In addition to a sum of £900,000 which was paid in 1968-69 to An Bord Gráin to meet part of the loss involved, there is a provision of £500,000 in the Supplementary Estimate to meet a further part of the loss involved. Indeed this may not be the end of the Exchequer commitment for the 1968 crop. These payments are, in fact, a bonus to wheat growers, because under normal circumstances they should have carried the loss themselves by way of a levy deducted from the price of wheat in 1968.

Demand for the facilities provided under the Department's various development schemes continues at a high level.

The amount paid out in 1968-69 by way of grants to farmers under the land project general scheme was £2,610,000 and the area of land improved was 97,000 acres.

Grants available under the schemes for mountain fencing and grazings have been considerably improved and constitute a strong inducement to farmers to produce more and better "keep" for stocks in mountain areas during critical periods of the year.

The fine summer and late autumn of 1969 resulted in an exceptionally large number of land project works being completed. The number of cases submitted for grant payment in the nine-month period from 1st April to 31st December rose from 12,163 in 1968 to 13,792 in 1969, representing an increase in acreage reclaimed from 85,282 acres to 98,134 acres and a consequential increase in grant payments from £2,103,000 to £2,513,000 in the respective nine-month periods. The amount provided for grant payments in the 1969-70 Vote is £2,530,000 but it is clear that this will be insufficient. Provision is being made under subhead K.9 in the Supplementary Estimate for a further £224,000.

The farm buildings and water supply schemes are kept under review to ensure that the facilities provided are in line with the current needs of farmers. In February, 1969, grants for unroofed silos were reintroduced. In May, new grants were introduced for cow parlours, while increased rates of grants became payable in the case of dry stock housing, silos, silage bases and water supplies.

The sum provided in subhead K.8 of the main Estimate for grant expenditure under these schemes was £2,593 million. The increased grants will give rise to extra expenditure estimated at £117,000. Provision for this is being made in the Supplementary Estimate. In 1968-69 grants paid under these schemes amounted to £2,457 million.

Silage making is of tremendous importance in our animal production economy. The tonnage made increased from about 400,000 tons in 1963 to 2,400,000 tons in 1968. A further significant increase to over 3 million tons is estimated to have taken place in 1969. Grants for the purchase of new forage harvesters—equivalent to about one-third of the purchase price—are being continued. Grants are paid at a flat rate to suitable persons who undertake to hire out the equipment on specified terms and to groups of farmers prepared to co-operate in silage making.

The scheme is being operated through the committees of agriculture to whom the Department recoup the full amount of the grants paid. In view of the popularity of the scheme, I am making provision in the Supplementary Estimate for an additional £40,000. To enable instructors in agriculture to give on-the-spot recommendations to farmers on the feeding value of their silage, in-service practical courses on the analysis of silage have been given in the various counties.

In 1968-69, there was a slight decline in deliveries of ground limestone due, in the main, to the adverse weather conditions in the early months of 1969, when the demand should have been reaching its peak. Any decline in consumption would be unwelcome and I am glad to say that there has been an increase this season. I would again urge farmers to order as much lime as possible during the summer months when they are assured of prompt deliveries and can take advantage of the lower prices generally prevailing at that time.

The promotional measures in favour of fertiliser use initiated by my Department a few years ago in co-operation with the fertiliser industry and the advisory services have proved very successful. Consumption of the three main nutrients, nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium, has increased remarkably over the last three years. The provision in the main Estimate for lime and fertiliser subsidies was £6,037,000 but, in view of the increased consumption, it is necessary to seek a supplementary sum of £1,022,000 making a total of £7,059,000.

The scheme of grants for glasshouse nurseries was introduced in 1967 to encourage the modernisation and expansion of existing commercial nurseries and the establishment of efficient new ones. Progress under the scheme has been rapid and 130 acres of modern, fully equipped glasshouses have already been approved for grants. Growers have expanded their share of the home market for tomatoes and exports have increased from £180,000 in 1967 to about £430,000 in 1969.

The response to the scheme and its cost to the Exchequer have been much greater than had originally been expected and provided for. During the current financial year it became necessary, because of the very large number of applications on hands, to review the position generally from the financial aspect and, in the meantime, to suspend the further approval of applications. The amount in the main Estimate is not, in fact, sufficient to meet payments in many cases already approved before the review.

The approval of applications under the scheme has now been resumed. The scheme has now been modified by the introduction of a ceiling of £25,000 on the grant available to any new applicant. In cases where applications were already on hands awaiting approval while the scheme was under review, a maximum grant of £40,000 will be allowed. A suitable system of priorities for applications within the funds available is also being worked out in the case of future applications. The supplementary provision of £350,000 now proposed will enable most, if not all, the cases maturing for payment before the end of the financial year to be dealt with.

The establishment of a development council for the glasshouse industry was recommended in the report of the survey team on that industry. Consideration is being given by the industry and by my Department to the question of how a council or development body for the industry could best be established and financed.

A sum of £1,750,000 was provided under subhead I.5 of the main Estimate towards the non-capital expenses of An Foras Talúntais. A further £96,000 will be required to meet the cost in the present year of applying national salary and wage increases to staffs of the institute. Provision for this is being made in the Supplementary Estimate. Under subhead I.6, £70,000 is being provided to finance capital expenditure by the institute. The State's financial contribution to the institute in the current financial year will, thus, amount to something over £1,900,000. This compares with a contribution of £1,582,500 in the past financial year.

Almost 70 per cent of the institute's current outlay is accounted for by salaries, wages and travelling expenses of the staff, and a substantial part of its increasing annual expenditure arises under this head. It may be noted too that as the institute's expenditure increases so does its dependence on the State for funds to meet this expenditure. In the present financial year, it is estimated that at least 80 per cent of the institute's current expenditure, as well as the whole of its capital expenditure, will have to be met by the State.

While there is expected to be a saving on grants under the small farm incentive bonus scheme, this is not indicative of a lack of interest in the scheme. In fact, since its introduction in May, 1968, over 9,000 farmers have applied to participate in the scheme and over 6,000 of these have embarked on their farm development plans. Many of the participants have, indeed, already successfully completed stage one of their plans and have been paid the first instalment of £50 of the bonus grant.

A notable feature of the scheme is the fact that almost two-thirds of the participants are in the 12 western counties. This represents a very satisfactory initial response to the scheme in the areas where the need to intensify employment, both on and off the farm, is greatest.

The administration of this scheme is very largely in the hands of the chief agricultural officers and their advisory staffs throughout the country and I would like to express my appreciation of their efforts in getting the scheme under way and to thank them for their co-operation in the operation of the scheme at all times.

As announced in the 1969 Budget statement, the total bonus grant offered under the scheme has been increased from £200 to £300. This bonus grant is additional to all other grants and subsidies available to farmers and it should offer a very strong incentive to smaller farmers who come into the potentially viable category to take part in the scheme. It is hoped, therefore, that many more farmers will be applying to participate in the scheme from now on.

There appears to be a certain amount of misconception about the Government's policy on small farms though this policy has been set out clearly in successive economic programmes. The role of the part-time farmer has been fully recognised. Part-time farming has long been a feature of our whole agricultural economy and particularly of the western areas. On this point I need only refer Deputies to paragraph 18 of Chapter 5 of the Third Programme from which I quote the following:

Even with this special scheme— that is the Small Farm Incentive Bonus Scheme—and the wide range of other measures available to help farmers, there will inevitably remain a proportion of farms which cannot be brought up to a viable level. On many of these the occupiers can provide themselves with a reasonable level of income through supplementary earnings from non-agricultural sources. The opportunities for securing such earnings already exist in many instances and the aim is to expand them still further. In the long run the only real solution to the problem of farms which cannot be made to provide a reasonable livelihood lies not in agriculture alone but in the comprehensive development of rural areas through the expansion of industry, tourism, afforestation, fisheries, etc. This approach has the advantage of helping to maintain the rural population.

Since we are dealing with the Supplementary Estimate only, my statement has not covered broad aspects of agricultural policy and developments. I would have welcomed an opportunity of giving the House a general outline of our assessment of what membership of the EEC will mean for Irish agriculture. I may briefly say, however, that the main benefit for the farmer would be increased prices, especially for cattle and milk, higher output and income. Our agricultural exports would have free access to a large market at remunerative prices but would encounter keen competition from other member States. I hope to publish in the very near future a document setting out in detail the results of a study on Irish agriculture and fisheries in the EEC.

I would like also to comment briefly on criticism of the Free Trade Area Agreement made by the chief spokesman on agriculture for the British Conservative Party, and on complaints by the chairman of the Milk Marketing Board for England and Wales about the growth in imports of some Irish dairy products. The Free Trade Area Agreement means a two-way traffic between Britain and Ireland. Special treatment for our agricultural exports to Britain is our right under the agreement and we are paying for it by way of concessions on imports of British industrial goods into Ireland. Our ability to continue as a substantial importer of British goods is largely dependent on the development of our agricultural exports to the UK. Unfortunately the persons in Britain to whom I have referred do not appear to see matters this way. What they seem to be advocating is a situation in which British industrial goods would have free access to our market while the entry of Irish dairy and other agricultural products into the British market was restricted by governmental or other action. We could not, of course, accept such a situation.

Finally, I would mention that, thanks to sound policies, agriculture has now had three consecutive good years marked by substantial increases in agricultural output, prices and incomes. Government policy, as is has evolved over the years, has resulted in farmers being increasingly well equipped to expand production on an efficient basis and to exploit opportunities for increased sales.

I support this Supplementary Estimate for £8,938,000. While the Estimate is fairly wide it still does not afford Deputies an opportunity of discussing agriculture generally. However, as the Minister has said in the concluding paragraph of his speech that he would be making an announcement as to what our agricultural prospects will be on our entry into the EEC, it is important that this House should be given an opportunity of discussing the matter. Undoubtedly adjustments and alterations will be necessary and some idea should be given as to what it will mean to the farming community.

As far as the subheads in this Supplementary Estimate are concerned, the most important one, in my opinion, is the one dealing with the dairying industry, but I intend to reserve most of my comments for the main Estimate when it comes before us. There is provision here of £1,000 in respect of agricultural society shows. Coming from an area which is interested in and has more agricultural shows than any other area in the country, I support this whole-heartedly. However, some of these grants are paid in accordance with the amount of prize money that is paid out at the shows and this militates against the smaller shows. In County Cork there are small villages who hold their own shows through co-operative effort on the part of the local people. These shows are an incentive to people to display their cattle and other animals and create competition which it is very necessary to encourage. It is something in which the agricultural community, both farmers and their wives, take a very keen interest. I would urge the Minister to examine this matter and to see that the small show gets fair play as against the bigger shows which have a greater amount of money at their disposal because they are in a more prosperous area or adjacent to a big town.

In recent years great progress has been made in regard to farm building schemes. Farmers are now well aware of the necessity for a modern layout and, with the aid of grants from the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, great improvements have been made in farmyards throughout the country.

Many farmers in my area find it difficult to get a supply of water from a public scheme particularly from a regional or group scheme because the powers-that-be are anxious to conserve the water supply for domestic purposes. As the Minister knows, it is impossible to produce quality milk without an adequate supply of running water. This is something which is causing anxiety. There are group water schemes but some of them are on the shelf for a long time and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries will not make a grant available for a private water supply where a group scheme is in the offing. I hope the Minister will re-examine this question.

In regard to the land project grant, some progress has been made but a lot of work remains to be done under this heading. There is still much land in this country that could be reclaimed and brought back to fertility. There is the problem that in many cases the Department inspectors will not give grants where there is not sufficient outlet for the drainage of land. This is not the fault of the farming community; it is because rivers and streams are choked and are flooding fertile land and farmers generally are most concerned about this matter. Progress under this scheme is being held up. There are acres of land in my constituency not qualifying for a land project grant because of this situation. Whether it be by the Board of Works or by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, this problem must be tackled if we are to bring the maximum amount of land into production. It could mean the difference between an economic and uneconomic holding in many areas if farmers were able to avail of the benefits of this scheme. I am quite prepared to concede that progress has been made but much more progress could be made if the problem were seriously tackled.

I should like to commend very highly the lime and fertiliser scheme and would be glad to add my voice to any other speaker who would encourage the farming community to avail of this scheme. In recent years the farming community have become aware of the advantages of liming and fertilising their lands and the ground limestone scheme, which was introduced during the period of office of an inter-Party Government, has proved of much benefit. However, it is still difficult to get some farmers to realise the advantages of liming and fertilising their land and this should be pushed further by the agricultural advisory service. I know this service is working at full stretch, but certainly in Cork we have not a sufficient number of agricultural instructors to do the work. Macra na Feirme and other organisations are playing an important part in educating the young farmers of this country.

My one complaint regarding the land project and the farm buildings scheme is that there seems to be much duplication. When a farmer is availing of grants under both those schemes it should be possible to devise some method whereby one inspector in an area would be in charge of both schemes combined as one service operated by one official.

In the Estimate a sum is provided in relation to the eradication of disease in animals. During the debate on the last annual Estimate for the Minister's Department, I remember bringing to the Minister's notice what I considered a most important aspect. Throughout the country there are a number of firms who have made a good living out of the collection of dead animals. This is quite legitimate, but there should be some control. At the moment the dead animals are dumped in depots and the carcases are redistributed throughout the country as dog meat and in my opinion this is responsible in no small way for the spread of disease. The situation exists where we have lorries touring the country collecting dead animals, which might have died from any kind of contagious disease. They are dumped in the depots, the hides are removed and the carcases redistributed throughout the country. I know of one case where the depot was, in fact, a field and the carcases were dumped and left there for a week or fortnight before being redistributed. Strict control should be exercised and the Minister might perhaps seriously consider the situation, because it is doing much damage to the cattle industry here.

So far as brucellosis is concerned, the position obtains that cattle suffering from this disease are being offered for sale in public marts throughout the country. This practice is more prevalent at the moment than the Minister would accept. When there is an outbreak in an area, unfortunately there is not any effort made to try to prevent the disease from spreading. If we are to succeed in checking this disease the matter must be tackled with the utmost vigour. It is causing an enormous loss to the farming community, particularly to the dairy farmers. Having brought this to the attention of the Minister, I hope he will take some steps to remedy the situation.

The bovine tuberculosis scheme has been in operation for quite some time. Having regard to the amount of money provided by way of Supplementary Estimate — £1,685,000 — under this heading, it occurs to me to wonder whether this scheme is a success. Is the reason for the extra amount the fact that there have been a number of breakdowns in herds throughout the country? I believe this is so and that, for some unknown reason, there has been in certain areas a serious breakdown in a number of herds. I should like the Minister to comment on this. The compensation paid by the Department is not adequate, in my opinion, in the light of present day costs. The Department pays market value only. It should be replacement value because, when there is a serious breakdown in some herds, it is almost impossible for the herdowner to replace the number of stock slaughtered. The Minister should consider raising the ceiling. I have known cases in which as many as 22 to 23 dairy cows went down. It is impossible to replace that number without financial assistance of some kind.

Money is provided for silage harvesting. This is a good scheme. Because it is operated by the county committees of agriculture it has made great progress. The feeding value of silage is now being realised and I am not surprised that there is this increase this year. Silage can be made in almost any kind of weather and haymaking is now becoming obsolete because farmers are going into silage in a big way. There is a big difference between good silage and bad silage. This is an area in which the agricultural advisory services, Macra and other bodies can play a very big part. There are classes and there are lectures.

With regard to pigs and bacon, the rearing and fattening of pigs should be made more financially advantageous for the small farmer. The trend today is towards pig production in big co-ops. Not so many years ago the small farmer played an important part in pig rearing and pig production was an important part of the income of the dairy farmer. The small farmer today cannot compete with the big combines. I believe the small farmer is not getting his fair share of this industry.

With regard to the marketing of our bacon and pig products, there are international markets available to us, but our biggest market still remains Great Britain. An intensification of progeny testing is most desirable in order to produce the kind of pig that will command the best price and give the best return. Do we, I wonder, avail of the British market to its fullest extent? I have spent some time in London and I have met a great many Irish people there; I suppose there is at least three-quarters of a million Irish people, or people with Irish backgrounds, living and working in and around London. I have had complaints that these people can never get Irish bacon, Irish eggs and Irish butter. Probably there is not enough advertising and not a sufficient display of Irish products. The market is enormous but it has not been properly exploited.

Will we have to produce a lighter type of pig for the European market? I am somewhat concerned about this. Progeny testing will ensure the best type of sow and boar, but very little progress is being made in this respect. People do not seem to appreciate how important and vital it is to the industry to have the best quality pig it is possible to produce.

The sow subsidy scheme is excellent as far as it goes. It provides an inducement to increased pig production. There is one pig problem. This scheme extends over the 12 western counties and County Cork. The latter is divided into two on the basis of district electoral divisions. Whoever drew the boundary in Cork had no conception of the kind of farming that goes on there. In one area the farmer included in the scheme has much better land than have other farmers who are excluded. The area is divided by a road. I should like the boundaries to be redrawn. Indeed, the scheme should be extended to the entire county. It is a necessary scheme which should be encouraged.

We are discussing a Supplementary Estimate which includes the sheep subsidy. We are all aware that there has been a serious decline over the past few years in the number of sheep in this country. This problem should be tackled. I have reason to doubt the statements made that the subsidy has increased the mountain-sheep population. The subsidy is a great help to sheep-farmers. The value of sheep has dropped because of the fall in wool prices. The Minister could possibly consider the extension of this scheme to inland sheep. The control of diseases, particularly liver fluke, should also be considered. The Department of Agriculture circulated a very informative leaflet on this disease at one time. This disease is causing a considerable amount of damage to sheep flocks throughout the country, particularly in southern areas. People have not the necessary information on the treatment of this disease. The Department of Agriculture should try to help sheep owners by giving them information on the control of this disease.

The most important item in the Supplementary Estimate is that dealing with milk production allowances and marketing of dairy products, including grants-in-aid. The sum of £4,061,000 is a big amount. The dairying industry is the foundation stone of the agricultural industry. It provides the cattle, the milk and the dairy products. This industry is at a cross-roads at the moment. I am glad to say that I see more co-operation and discussion now between the Minister and the various farming interests than there used to be. This is a step in the right direction. The relationship between the Department and the farming community was not very satisfactory. I hope there will be consultation and discussion in the future particularly in so far as the dairying industry is concerned because this industry plays a very important part in the economy of the country. It was never more imperative than now that the farming organisations, the officials of the Department and the Minister should co-operate in an effort to encourage efficiency in every way possible in the dairying industry. An effort must be made to gear the farming community to meet the challenge they will inevitably meet when we enter the EEC. Great strides have been made in the past few years in the production of milk. There are 110,000 farmers engaged in milk production. In the 70s we must have top-quality milk at every level. This presents a challenge. Every encouragement should be given to achieve this objective. It should be the aim of the Department and of the 110,000 milk-producing farmers to provide top-quality milk, whether it is to be used for butter or other products, and whether it is to be sold on the home market or on export markets. Bad quality production is bad for all markets. Bad quality dairy products do not travel well. All milk producers should aim at qualifying for the quality-bonus given by the Department of Agriculture.

There is an obligation on those who process dairy products—cheese manufacturers, milk powder manufacturers, chocolate crumb manufacturers—to present their products in a more sophisticated way than heretofore. It is very important that products should be presented attractively, particularly in international markets. The Minister said that the intake of milk for this year will be approximately 550 million gallons. Every pint of milk over 250 million gallons will be for the export market. It will, therefore, be appreciated that the aim must be at top-quality production. The milk producer, the creamery, the processor, the manufacturer, all have a very important part to play. I hope there will be the fullest co-operation by all concerned from the Minister down to the most humble milk producer. This is the only way in which we can sell in competition with countries that are ahead of us in marketing and production techniques. There must be full co-operation and top-quality production.

The Minister has mentioned the scaled increases in the price of milk. We are urging on everyone in the farming community at the present time the necessity for more efficient production. The Minister has agreed that this is necessary. Modern farmyard layout and top-quality milk production are necessary. I believe the scaled increases in the price of milk are a retrograde step. I have mentioned this by way of supplementary question to a question that I put down to the Minister. The Minister has made the case that it is necessary to give an increase to the small farmers and the small milk producers. I agree this is necessary. On 45 acres of land, by specialising in milk production, one could produce over 20,000 gallons of milk per year. This would result in a reduction in price even though a man had become very efficient. This is a retrograde step in respect of which I wish to condemn the Minister. There was no prior consultation or discussion with the farming community or with the people who were to administer the scheme.

I am informed that officials of his Department received a deputation from the ICMSA, the NFA, the IAOS, the Creamery Managers Association and the Cream Exporters Association and every one of them objected to the phased increase in the price of milk because it was bound to militate against efficiency. This also was my objection to it.

All along the line milk producers were encouraged to become efficient. Some of them not only became very efficient but became experts. It was a specialisation job where, first of all, the basic requirement was the liming and fertilising of the land at considerable cost as well as the improvement of the farmyard and the introduction of the milking parlour, at a cost of thousands of pounds. When they became efficient in the production of quality and quantity milk this phased increase penalised them. I do not accept the Minister's figure that only 2½ per cent of the milk producers are affected by this increase. The Minister is confused between the big farmer and the big milk producer because the big milk producer is not necessarily the big farmer. The big milk producer could well be the man who has specialised completely, who has gone out of every other line in agricultural production and specialised in milk. As a result of becoming efficient he has been penalised. Every one of the people I have mentioned has stated publicly that they are in disagreement with the phased increase. It is a shame that the Minister did not have the courtesy to discuss this with the people concerned before introducing it. It is a pity that there were no discussions with the Irish Creamery Managers Association. Indeed, a certain amount of confusion still exists as far as this increase is concerned.

The rationalisation of the creamery structure, to which the Minister referred, is necessary but I cannot understand how it takes so long before a decision can be made as to whether a certain creamery will be accepted or amalgamated with a group of creameries. I have seen this in my own area. Recently, in reply to a Parliamentary question, the Minister said— if I am misquoting him he can correct me—that he is to set up a study group to examine rationalisation from the social aspect. This may be all right but we have seen so many reports on this aspect of the dairying industry that the people are sick to death of them. We had the American experts who cost the taxpayer an enormous amount, who devoted months to examining the creamery structure, and then reported back but no action was taken. Whatever the reason for the stalling tactics, the Minister has now decided to set up this other study group. This is ludicrous. I should like to ask him, if there is an increase of twopence to threepence a gallon on milk in an area where there will be amalgamation, what value does he put on the social aspect of that? I can see, as a result of vested interests, pressure being put on public representatives, on Deputies and on the Minister. There are some people who might be disturbed in their soft jobs if amalgamation takes place. These are the vested interests who are using influence to stop this amalgamation.

Amalgamation and rationalisation should proceed where the benefit can be clearly shown to go to the farming community, the milk producers, so that they will get a better price for their milk. If the Minister was satisfied with this he would have the full backing of the farming community.

But who is in a position to judge?

The Deputy will have an opportunity to speak. This is a very important matter and it is something that will play an important part in the dairying industry. As I was saying before I was interrupted, where it can be clearly shown that the benefits will go to the creamery managers and the creamery workers, rationalisation is something that should proceed without delay. The Department, and particularly the Minister, should not be stalled by vested interests.

That is completely incorrect.

This is something with which the Minister should concern himself. The small creameries in the outlying areas can no longer provide the services which the bigger co-ops and the bigger creameries can provide for the farming community. For that reason the matter should be examined and more progress made. Earlier I was dealing with marketing and the management of dairying produce and I pointed out how imperative it is to produce top-quality milk. I am informed by a concern in Cork county that in the United States there is an unlimited market for cheese if we can produce quality skim milk. I am told that the market is such that even one of the biggest creameries in the south, with all their skim milk, could not supply it. It has to be top-quality skim milk.

Recently I read an article by the managing director of An Bord Bainne and I was very impressed by it. He claimed that in Japan there is a market for cheese. This is something we should be doing our utmost to get—our share in any available market. If we have to export approximately 47,000 tons of butter in the coming year we will be exporting a commodity that in my opinion is overproduced, particularly in the EEC countries. We should be giving every encouragement to diversification from milk production.

This brings me to the beef scheme. There is a strong case for increasing the grants in the scheme. Our farmers are very slow to change, particularly when they have invested in a big way in one line of production, and the inducement must be very attractive before they will change. If milk is being overproduced, particularly in the EEC, it is an indication that it is necessary to give a greater inducement to change from milk to beef production.

A recent report from the Agricultural Institute appeared in the Irish Times of Thursday, November 6th. It states that the average income of the Irish farmer is £465 and that this is not enough to pay a decent wage to an agricultural worker. It goes on:

The Report shows that the average family income from farms which fall into the category 5-15 acres is £127 a year; the income from those of 15-30 acres is £202; from 30-50 acres, £408, ...

This is an alarming situation in the 1970s. The average income of a farmer is £465, which is not sufficient to pay an agricultural worker. Where milk production is not economic, particularly in remote areas and in the case of small farmers who are not geared for it, encouragement should be given to diversify and go into some other line of production and get away from milk production if it is not paying.

I said I would be brief. I will reserve my comments for the main Estimate.

This Supplementary Estimate covers a wide variety of headings and consequently it is quite in order for any Deputy to address himself to many aspects of farming activity. I was impressed by the concluding paragraph of the Minister's statement. The first sentence of his last paragraph was:

Finally, I would mention that, thanks to sound policies, agriculture has now had three consecutive good years marked by substantial increases in agricultural output, prices and incomes.

My view is that we are very fortunate at present that cattle prices are so good. Let us hope that this continues in the future. Some people may say that prices are far below the prices obtaining in EEC countries but, by our standards, we must all agree that the good prices obtaining for cattle are helpful not only to the farming community but also to the general economy of the country. I suppose it is natural for a Government or a Minister to take credit for such a position obtaining but I am sure the Irish people are not so gullible that they will swallow that statement.

What about the Free Trade Area Agreement?

The Minister without Portfolio.

Who gets credit for that?

What about the good weather?

What about the bad weather, John?

We are talking about the last three years.

I am talking about the bad weather in South West. Nobody lost the election. Nobody won.

We lost it.

Did you? We did not win it.

I did not think you would be so unenthusiastic about it.

We are pleased that at the present time the British market affords our farmers the opportunity of getting good prices for cattle. That has been the case in recent years. I will not go back on what has been said about this market. I do not believe in a policy of isolation. I believe it is essential to have good relations with out neighbours——

Deputy Dr. O'Donovan would not agree with the Deputy.

——particularly with our close neighbours and I believe in having the best trade agreement possible with them. Let me make it clear that it is circumstances outside this country's control that benefit us at present. If things are good the Government take the credit and if they are bad they blame some outside influence. If there was an alternative Government over there I am sure cattle prices would be as good if not better than they are today.

What about the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement?

An alternative Government could explore markets much more efficiently, I have no doubt, than the present Government are capable of doing.

The Minister in his statement has given pride of place to milk prices and subsidies. I think he was correct in doing so. Milk prices are exceptionally important to the vast majority of Irish farmers because down through the years we have encouraged a system of dairy farming here and as a result, particularly in the province of Munster or the southern half of the country, the monthly milk cheque is the main source of income. We have acknowledged in the past and we continue to acknowledge that the farming community are entitled to a fair return for their work. It is acknowledged by the Government that the farming community have not been getting that fair return in recent years, particularly the small farmers, many of whom have uneconomic holdings. Much play has been made here in debates about the income level of such farmers. The Government recognised the justification for the pleas made by those of us who speak on behalf of the small farmers when, in order to help them and tide them over their difficulties, they brought in that commendable scheme of allowing small farmers social welfare benefit to help them to attain a reasonable standard of living. In so doing they acknowledged the fact that it was impossible for such people to live on the incomes from their farms alone. This scheme enables a number of farmers, who otherwise would have difficulty in continuing on in their holdings and who would possibly have to emigrate, to remain in them, even if it is at a low standard of living, as it is for some of them.

It is quite clear that the scheme is not applicable to the congested districts only because in its amended form it now operates throughout the year and helps the small farmer with limited valuation, particularly the man with the young family. I have stressed again and again the need for such schemes.

Most small farmers should be part-time farmers only and there should be ways and means of supplementing their farm income with employment, even on a seasonal basis, in some industrial concern located in their own area. This is now agreed by everybody. It applies particularly to the west coast. Somebody may say after me, and possibly with some justification, that handouts are no remedy, but we must face the situation as it is. I congratulate the Minister and the Government on facing up to the situation that the small farmers were not able to continue in existence without something like this scheme I have referred to. They have as much right to strike as some of the other people who strike. It was essential to formulate this policy which enables those people to supplement their incomes with help directly from central funds.

My reason for stressing this is to indicate to the House that the Government have accepted the contention made here in the 1960s that something should be done to help those people. The Minister told us of the helps and supports given to milk in the 1960s. He told us that the sum available from the Exchequer this year, directly and indirectly, will be in the region of £31 million of which more than £20 million will be paid directly to the creameries. He also told us that every gallon of milk which reaches the creameries costs the taxpayer 1s 2d. A sum of 1s 2d a gallon is a formidable figure. If we start calculating at 600 gallons per cow, which is the figure now deemed to be the national average, at 1s 2d per gallon we will get something in the region of £35 per cow received from the Exchequer.

We have to examine both sides of this case properly. It is quite evident to us that the number of cows supplying creameries must be reduced by one means or another because it is impossible to continue to have that heavy load on our public funds in a country with a limited population and limited resources. Some alternative system must be devised. Here, we are told, is the reason we want cows: without cows you cannot have calves, and without calves you cannot have stores and beef to help in the export market and to help our balance of payments.

This booklet, Bainne, came into my hands this morning. There is a very interesting article in it by Mr. McGough. I am taking up the time of the House with this article because I maintain the Government were very shortsighted in their policy in past years: in 1960 they had no idea in what position we would find ourselves in 1965, never mind 1970. It is one of the qualifications required of Government to try to see as far as possible into the future. Mark you, during the past ten years there was no major disturbance of an unforeseen nature in this country. Here was our position, as stated by Mr. McGough:

In the first half of the decade the main concern was to ensure that there was sufficient milk to keep the supplies of butter available for the newly-launched "Kerrygold" national brand in Britain. Milk for dairy products other than butter was carefully allocated, and the expanding aspects of the industry had to be catered for milk-wise.

He goes on further to state:

In the second half of the decade, with the vastly increased quantities of milk, the whole pattern of production, processing and marketing changed. In this period of achievement, many of our factories expanded capacity and many new factories were opened, particularly for cheese milk powder. The impressive lists of awards for Irish dairy produce at the Royal International Dairy Shows of 1968 and 1969 are proof of the success of the programme of expansion.

The Minister may smile at this. I am not taking patches out of it. I want to set it all on the records. The article also states:

1966 marked the end of the honeymoon.

Apparently we all thought the honeymoon was going to last a good deal longer, but in 1966 the marriage appeared to break up so far as the export of Irish dairy produce was concerned. The article continues:

Once we reached the limit of market availability for dairy products other than butter, our surplus of milk had to go into butter for which there was no ready market.

We reached a stage then in 1966, according to Mr. McGough, and I am sure he had more time to look up details than I have, when there was no ready market. When there was no ready market, we had to sell it abroad.

Further down in the statement we are told that the only market where the price improved in 1969 was the British market where we got, according to the figures of the Bord Bainne managing director, 3s 3½d per lb for butter. One-third of our total milk subvention included in this Estimate goes to this organisation for export.

It is further stated in the article that there are mountains of butter available in the EEC. I should like an explanation from the Minister about how he can be so positive that milk prices will be higher in the EEC in the late seventies and early eighties when, according to this statement, they have mountains of butter at their disposal, which they are trying to sell to any market at what is termed giveaway prices. That expression is the very same as that used in the Minister's statement. Apparently, we are trying to get markets in places like the West Indies and we are giving them butter at what is termed, by both the Minister and the managing director of An Bord Bainne, giveaway prices because it is inadvisable to store it and storage costs £75 per ton per year.

I realise that we require money to flow into this country to help our balance of payments position but I cannot see why we should give butter away for next to nothing to the West Indies or, indeed, any other country. We are travelling the world to sell our butter at giveaway prices but I cannot see why we do not give it to our own people. Many people in this country could eat more butter than they are eating at the present time. The price of butter is high in this country because it is based on the price paid by the State for milk. Many families would be only too pleased to get a reduction of 1s 6d or 2s 6d per lb in the price of butter. Such a reduction would help the farming community and it would also stop large stocks of butter accumulating which, according to all the reports, including the Minister's, have to be given away to foreign markets.

It is quite all right to give butter for nothing to a country which has difficulties such as Nigeria but to transport it across the world and give it to people for next to nothing is ridiculous. The surplus which we now have should bring about the re-introduction of a subsidy for home consumption. I think we should help ourselves for a change. People in the lower income group would welcome the opportunity to eat more butter. The only objection to the re-introduction of the subsidy would be that the higher income group would also be able to get butter at a reduced price but, unfortunately, we are told that that type of person is no longer eating much butter. According to Mr. Maher, president of the NFA, the affluent people in this country are watching their figures so much that they are no longer eating butter.

There cannot be much affluence between the Deputy and myself.

If that is the case then these people would not make a great impact on this type of subsidy. The surplus milk question is a very difficult one for the Minister. No matter what the milk is turned into, whether it is butter or any kind of by-product, markets are no longer available at any kind of an economic price and the position is likely to get worse.

I am pleased to note, as I am sure every Deputy is, that 36,000 herdowners have applied for subvention under the beef incentive bonus scheme. At present it is £12 per cow, but the Cork County Committee of Agriculture has recommended that it be increased to £20 per cow. I think that suggestion is justified because we found earlier in our calculations that the subvention at an average yield of 600 gallons is at least £35 per cow whose milk is taken to the creamery. That would mean a saving of £15 per cow according to my way of calculating it. As well as that, the calves would be under the cows and everyone knows that calves under cows are much better than calves fed from the bucket and then out in the field on grass. This would result in a double advantage. It is accepted that the meat from calves fed on new milk in their early days is better and more saleable than the meat from calves fed in the traditional style.

I suggest that we close shop in faraway places such as the West Indies and Japan. We must recognise that for some time to come we are going to have a butter surplus. The fact must be accepted that it is inadvisable to store that butter in the hope that prices will increase in Britain or in any other country. We must admit the fact that we are in a difficult position.

To summarise, I am suggesting that we should reduce the price of butter here. That will take a share of the surplus and our own people will benefit. Taxation will be necessary to meet that, but money will have to be found—and is included in the £31 million—to send butter to the West Indies or any other place. I am not casting any aspersions on any of these people. They are quite entitled to buy their butter as cheaply as possible. When there is a surplus, they are quite entitled——

It was a very enterprising Cork farmer who went out to the West Indies and created a market for Irish butter there.

We are told by the managing director of Bord Bainne and by the Minister that you can do no better, irrespective of your qualifications as a salesman, than to get what are termed giveaway prices.

The people in the Minister's part of the country, Ulster, and in Connaught and North Leinster, possibly as a result of the calved heifer scheme, became creamery-orientated. We must try to redirect them towards dry cattle. I understand that was the general pattern in Ulster, Connaught and North Leinster. We must try to get them back to the position they were in before the calved heifer scheme came into operation. There were buyers in West Cork fairs from the midlands and they were very helpful. They bought a great many stores and created competition but, of late, the pattern has changed and too many of these people have gone into milk production. This is a free country and every farmer is entitled to stay in milk production if he so wishes, or to leave it if he thinks he can do better by adopting another course.

The Minister would be well advised to accept this recommendation, which had the unanimous approval of all parties in the Cork Committee of Agriculture, to increase the subsidy of £12 to £20 per cow. If he does. I am sure when he comes back to the House this figure of £36,000 will be greatly increased and will, therefore, be helpful in regard to cattle exports and also to the Exchequer. If that happens, and if we get back to a position where the butter surplus is considerably reduced, it will be quite in order for the Minister to say: "We have rectified the position. We are back to normal again. We can find markets at reasonable prices for any surplus we have and consequently the subsidisation of butter can be reviewed."

I am not suggesting that for ever more we should be asked to subsidise butter prices. I am putting this forward as a temporary measure, while this difficulty continues and, when the difficulty is resolved, or when the position has eased, it would be quite in order for whatever Government are in power to come to the House and say: "We now have to change back again."

It might be too late then.

No. I am quite serious about this. I do not accept what Deputy Creed had to say a while ago about the scaled milk prices. I think this is a good idea and I claim that I mentioned it in the House years and years ago. The idea was to help the small farmers and having milk prices phased as they are at present does that. There is no doubt about that. If we are to accept the figure here, and I readily accept it, of a subvention of 1s 2d, the man with the big number of cows, with modern equipment and with a high output of milk to my mind would be rather too costly.

Hear, hear.

I see the difficulty. We are trying to cut down the production of milk. Of course, if prices are attractive to the big man whose output is well over three figures per day, this creates a difficulty. There is no use in talking about mistakes which were made in the past. I am trying to settle the milk question. I am trying to be fair to everybody. This is a formidable problem for any man in charge of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. I am satisfied that the scale up to 7,000 gallons per year will be generally beneficial to the small farmer. We must accept the Minister's stateon that scale is 80. Producers supplying between 7,000 to 14,000 gallons receive a reduced rate. I think the reduction is 2d.

In the local creameries at home, for milk with a three per cent butter fat content, the man with less than 7,000 gallons, not counting the quality bonus, gets ls 10.9d, almost 1s 11d, a gallon. Costs have increased and 1s 11d, even with the addition of the quality bonus, is not a high price to give such a man for milk. His costs must be much higher than those of the man who is geared to produce 150, 200 or 250 gallons per day. We like to see all sections of our people getting justice. The fact that 2½ per cent of our farmers are producing milk to an extent greater than 20,000 gallons per year may be a justification for giving them a smaller share per gallon of the funds available.

Hear, hear.

Money does not grow on trees. It is not picked up off the ground. It has to come from people's pockets. I have had phased milk prices in mind down through the years. I mentioned it here time and again. Since the Minister introduced it, and since I first read of it, I have been in agreement that it helps to give the smaller man a bigger slice of the national cake. I do not accept Deputy Creed's contention that it hinders the progressive farmer. It certainly does not. If a farmer is producing 6,000 or 7,000 gallons and then produces a few thousand more ——

He will gain from it.

Yes, he will gain from it. I do not think there is any drawback in increasing output. There is no necessity to comment further on pages 1 to 4 of this report. There is a problem. We have to meet people who tell us they were advised to improve their stalls, to change the name to cowbyres, then to milk parlours, and that they have gone to a great deal of expense to provide equipment to gear themselves for dairy farming and milk production. Some of them undoubtedly have grounds for disappointment, but the other side of the picture must be examined. I should like to see some further improvement in milk prices, particularly for those producing under 14,000 gallons. At the present time there are other groups and organisations all stretching out their hands and some of them forcibly looking for more from the public purse. If it is right for them to stretch out their hands and demand more, it is equally right for the farming community to stretch out their hands and demand an increase in their standards. The only way they can get an increase in their standards is by getting improvements in milk prices, in the beef incentive bonus and other schemes. If you do not do that in this country you will be forgotten. There are other small sections who are not organised and who are being wiped out. Take the small shopkeeper; he is being trampled on at the present time. I hope the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, Deputy Blaney, and his very capable assistant, Deputy Gerry Cronin, who is sitting behind him——

He is well flanked.

He is a fellow Corkman and a fellow member of the county council. He is broadminded and it is a pity that some others do not adopt his attitude. It would be far better for our public life if we had men in the Government or in the Opposition capable of taking a broad view of things and seeing the other fellow's viewpoint. I must say the Parliamentary Secretary does that.

Deputy Creed referred to the rationalisation of creameries. I do not intend to dwell on that, but undoubtedly there must be rationalisation in the seventies. I hope this commission or board will report on this aspect at an early date. I can see difficulties for creameries in this way, that the small units are mainly economic ones because of the shops that go with them. To have customers coming along every morning is very helpful, but the position must be reviewed.

I am very interested in the pig and bacon industry, and if I were not so interested I do not think I would have the privilege of addressing the House today. In our part of the country, West Cork, we have been mindful of the advantages of pig rearing and pig production. I am surprised that, despite our agricultural advisory service, despite so many leaflets from the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries we have not got across to our small farmers the advantage of keeping sows and bonhams and rearing as many pigs as possible. We must continue our efforts. I mentioned in previous debates the undesirability of having big pig fattening units and big sow stations. I found just a while ago in reading this that our factories are only turning over with 60 per cent of output and they may make the case: "We are not getting our supply of pigs regularly and we should change over and do with pigs what we did with the hens some eight or nine years ago." Everyone knows what happened to the hens since that change occurred. Grants should not be made available that will entice big concerns such as co-operative or independent groups or big farmers to go in for pig rearing on a four-figure scale. If that happens in time to come— and we must all try to look ahead—the market will be glutted and it is possible that the pigs and bacon industry will be in the same position as the milk industry. An effort must be made to keep that industry to the small man, the farmer around the country, to advise him that it is in his own interest to keep more sows and bonhams and rear more pigs. I am hoping that the £300 bonus scheme will improve the position, that more and more farmers will avail of that scheme and, in availing of it, that they will indicate their intentions of increasing their sow or pig numbers.

I was rather surprised to read that the Minister is quite satisfied with the number of applicants for the scheme which I think he sets down at 6,000. We were also surprised to learn at the County Cork Committee of Agriculture that many farmers were not too anxious to avail of the scheme. I do not know whether this was due to lack of explanation or some other reason. In South-West Cork we have been agitating and fighting for a bacon processing plant for many years. In making that plea again today, I am well aware that the bacon industry has 40 factories widely dispersed throughout the country—this is quoted in the 1963 report on page one. South-West Cork provides 11 per cent of pig production. If we had 11 per cent of the factories there would be at least four situated in that area. Surely, therefore, we are entitled to one factory? It could not be said that this claim is in any way narrow or parochial.

The desirability of part-time farming is mentioned in the Minister's statement. In Skibbereen seasonal work is available for farmers which helps to supplement their incomes. We are not accepting the statement that there are four factories in Cork and that they cannot get enough pigs or that there is a decrease in the number of pigs. If rural Ireland is to survive, rural Deputies must fight for their own areas.

It is an accepted fact that the number of persons engaged in agriculture will decrease and it has been mentioned frequently that the decrease will be of the order of from 9,000 to 10,000 persons annually. Will those people move to some other part of the country or to Birmingham or London? There must be more industrialisation in rural Ireland and we must continue to fight for this, irrespective of what Government are in power. This is not a political matter; it is a question of the survival of the people of rural Ireland. No matter what political affiliations one has, when elected by a rural constituency, particularly in the west of Ireland, one has an obligation to speak out boldly and firmly.

My two colleagues are listening to me now and I know they agree with me that this is not a political matter nor one from which any of us wish to get personal kudos. It is a matter of conviction that West Cork is entitled to this pig processing factory and I have no doubt if we get this factory the number of sows, bonhams and pigs will steadily increase. That is our plea. It must be recognised that the Berehaven Peninsula, the area in which I live, the Mizenhead Peninsula, Kilcrohane Peninsula, Drimoleague, Dunmanway and other parts have suffered extensively through emigration and lack of industrial development. This was regarded as the forlorn and forsaken part of Ireland. There were many local groups antagonistic to us, feeling possibly that we were not firm enough in our demands and indicating that we were incapable, as public representatives, of putting forward their view-points in Dáil Éireann and, quite possibly, there was some justification for this.

I am satisfied that the present Minister is a reasonable man and I have never said otherwise. I realise the difficulty he encounters in getting money from the Exchequer. We all make mistakes: I charged the Minister and his Department with mistakes today but others in the same position might make the same mistakes. I make a special plea to the Minister because a factory cannot be located in West Cork without his help and assistance.

Or a bacon industry either.

The Minister comes from County Donegal which is somewhat similar to West Cork. He understands farmers and the problems of small farms and in fairness to him I must say he has initiated schemes beneficial to such people. I know the four Cork factories will try to knife us; they will say: "If you give West Cork a factory that is our main channel of supply and we will go out of business". Let them get business elsewhere. Urban areas are growing rapidly, particularly Dublin, Cork and the larger towns, whereas the reverse is happening in the country districts. If South-West Cork had this factory, plus the processing factory at Skibbereen, with what is being provided in Deputy Crowley's town and what we expect will be established at Clonakilty, in addition to the tourism we already have, we could build up our community. We could look forward to the time when the young boys and girls leaving vocational and secondary schools who opt for a skilled trade or local work would have the opportunity of earning their livelihood at home.

One could ask how can more factories be erected. I have given the answer and do not want to repeat myself other than to say to the Government and to the Minister: "Go easy on grants to large combines for pig production". If we offer incentives to people who may avail of them with a view to taking over the bacon industry, the position of that industry in the future may be similar to that of the poultry industry today.

I spoke earlier about trading with other countries. We have a bigger trade with Great Britain than we have with anywhere else. Our cattle trade, both live and dead, together with the 28,000 tons of bacon we export to Britain is very valuable from the point of view of the economy generally. We all hope this market will continue. I cannot quite follow the Minister's statement with regard to the EEC. He says the main benefit for the farmers will be increased prices, especially for cattle and milk, higher output and income. Now we cannot sell to the EEC countries because the tariffs are as high as £55.

I cannot see any great future for us in the EEC from the point of view of milk and milk products. Bord Bainne have literally mountains of butter and one reads of schemes promoted in the EEC countries to pension off farmers and to slaughter dairy cows in order to reduce milk products. We will need much more information about the EEC. I am all in favour of entry provided we benefit. If Britain enters we will have to enter. We cannot go on living in isolation in this modern world; we must form some sort of federation with our neighbours. I hope the Minister will, as he has promised, make a detailed statement on the EEC later. Many people are looking forward to such a statement because of all the conflicting views. Some of those who express these views may have quite marked ability but it is evident from the conflict that some of these views must, to put it mildly, be incorrect.

There is agitation for an extension of the pilot areas and I should like the Minister to make some announcement on the future of these pilot areas. Is he satisfied with the progress made? So far as Cork is concerned the prospects are very bright. I should like an extension of the farm building grants to the 12 western counties. Proper farm buildings are essential to a healthy agriculture.

I hope the brucellosis scheme will become more comprehensive and that it will in time be extended to southern Ireland. I believe, too, that more consideration should be given to the civicspirited farmers who publicise the fact that their cattle have developed brucellosis. We are aware—it is unfortunate that this should happen—that some farmers try to dispose of their cows in the public market, or elsewhere, as quickly as possible and we know the dire consequences that can result from that practice. The co-operative farmers, certainly in Cork, get very little thanks for being co-operative. The conscienceless farmer must be prevented from disposing of his aborted cattle to prevent other herds being endangered. We had a figure some years ago of £25 million lost annually because of animal diseases. We must ensure that every effective step is taken to ensure these losses will not continue.

When will the bovine tuberculosis scheme finish? Big sums are spent testing herds. There was a general belief that bovine tuberculosis could be wiped out in eight or ten years. But these tests continue. When will this expenditure stop? Is the Minister satisfied effective steps are being taken to bring the scheme to an end? So much has been expended and so many people have been employed on the scheme that they should be able to tell the Minister now they have finished the job and that all that is necessary is to ensure there will be no contamination from outside sources. At the moment the scheme seems to be going around in a circle. It is too costly. I should like some definite information as to when it is expected the work will be completed or is it to continue in secula seculorum?

We had a visit from the Parliamentary Secretary to Cork. We were annoyed with the Minister's lack of attention so we by-passed him and got his Parliamentary Secretary down. We managed to iron out our difficulties. I appreciate this is a very important Estimate. I agree that subventions to agriculture are costing more and more from year to year. Agriculture is our most important industry. The income derived from it helps our balance of payments. It is claimed that almost one-third of our population are working directly in this industry.

Appreciating the difficulties that arise in arriving at agreements between the Department and the parties represented in this House and the bodies representing agriculture, I think we should have an agricultural sub-committee of this House on which members of different parties could consult together to try to reach agreement on policy formulation for agricultural development. This could apply to other fields as well.

Agriculture is too important an industry, and the amount it is receiving from the central funds is too much, for it to be thrown in here and tossed about. Public representatives have no opportunity of discussing agriculture except on this Estimate, and by way of Parliamentary Questions. While I agree that Deputies are heavily burdened, whether they represent the towns or rural areas, I think we should set up a sub-committee and I am putting that proposal forward for consideration.

Mr. J. Lenehan

We have that committee. Why does the Deputy not apply for membership of it? He is putting up a smokescreen.

(Interruptions.)

Since the foundation of the State the Government Party, whoever were in power, have had only a small majority. Just because one side wins by a few votes, there is no harm in consultation——

I hope the Deputy is not going to pursue and develop this point.

Possibly the Minister may make a statement about a sub-committee. I apologise for any transgression.

Deputies have covered a very wide field discussing this Supplementary Estimate. Everything, except fisheries, has been discussed. When preparing his Estimate for the year the Minister must be guided by the amount of money available to him. It is common practice now to subsidise various farm produce. The Minister must decide the best way to divide these subsidies among the farming community. I congratulate the Minister and the Government on the decision to give a greater share of the subsidies to those who work small and medium-sized farms.

These farmers have a hard job to exist and to face competition at the present time. I am glad the spokesman on the Labour benches agreed with the Minister's views on that point. I am surprised my colleague on the Fine Gael benches did not agree with it. The Minister is quite right in channelling greater subsidies to help the small-and medium-sized farms. It is the duty of every politician to recommend that as many people as possible be employed on the land. It is well known that cattle prices are buoyant now as we come into the seventies. Sheep are making great prices. The prices for pigs are good also. Many people will tell you that this would have happened anyway. I do not agree with that opinion. It has been said that the last three good years brought about this situation. We have to face fierce competition in world markets now. We must build up a quota on the British market or elsewhere. This is not easy to do. We have to sell the right product and face competition with other countries. We must congratulate An Bord Bainne and the Pigs and Bacon Commission on the job they have done. Our agricultural products are commanding very high prices in world markets. It is the duty of every Deputy to press for the employment of as many as possible on the land. That is the view of the two major farming organisations. I am glad the Minister, in the course of his speech, quoted the NFA Year Book, 1962, in which it is stated:

... all future subventions to agriculture wherever practicable must be applied so as to be of maximum benefit to the smaller farms.

It is well known that the ICMSA, and especially the late Mr. John Feeley, have always believed in the preservation of the family farm.

The Minister has asked for various amounts. In discussing these matters I will follow the sequence the Minister followed in his speech. It is stated here that the milk price support is costing more and more each year. We all agree on that. Many people seem to think that that subsidy has increased each year and that it goes directly into the farmers' pockets. That is not so. Anybody with any knowledge of the dairying industry will know that the price being paid to the farmers by the processing plants has not increased except by very little over the last 11 years despite the fact that the Government each year are providing more subsidies to keep up the price of milk. It is obvious that they are also subsidising industry. They are subsidising the management and the workers in the creameries and in the processing plants. That should not be overlooked in discussing milk prices.

The Minister stated that the Exchequer is paying an average of 1s 2d on every gallon of milk delivered to creameries in the current year. That is a very high price to pay. It is sad to see so many people turning over to the use of margarine. This matter must be tackled. I would appeal to the Minister and his Department to carry out a publicity campaign throughout the country, using the press, radio and television, to bring the facts home to the people. Many housewives think they are saving money by buying margarine. Do they think of what they are costing the country? It takes approximately two and a half gallons of milk to make a pound of butter. For every pound of butter the Exchequer is paying 2s 10d or 2s 11d. If a pound of margarine is bought it means that a pound of butter must be exported at a bad price. Instead of saving money every pound of margarine bought in the shops is costing the Irish taxpayer 2s 10d or 2s 11d. The Department should pursue a vigorous campaign to bring that point home to everybody in the country.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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