Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Nov 1970

Vol. 249 No. 10

Adjournment Debate: County Cork Garda Station.

Mr. Burton

I wish to make it very clear at the outset that anything I may say is not to be taken as a criticism of or a reflection on the Garda force. On the contrary, I want to compliment them on doing a good job under very difficult conditions. Indeed, I have discussed this matter with senior officers of the force and with ordinary members, and they told me they feel frustrated by regulations. One man said to me that their work is being increased day after day, practically, and their numbers are getting fewer. They find it very difficult to give a good service under those circumstances. Indeed, that is not like the force because they go out of their way, and have always done so, to do their best to give a very efficient service.

At the moment the people of Charleville are up in arms against the regulations which have created this problem. They are disturbed and they have every reason to be. Their garda barracks is closed for 17 hours out of the 24. The Minister is well aware that Charleville is an expanding town with a population of something like 2,500. We must face up to the fact, unfortunately, that crimes of violence and robbery and vandalism and breaches of the peace are on the increase everywhere.

A while ago I read in the Evening Herald what was said by the Garda Commissioner, Mr. J. Weymes, at a passing out parade at the Garda Training centre. The report reads:

We are living in a time of great change where members of our society are becoming increasingly aware of their rights. Emphasising the importance of courtesy at all times to the public, he stressed that the prevention of crime is far more important than the apprehension of a criminal.

That is the point.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy let us have the date of the newspaper, please?

Mr. Burton

The Evening Herald of Wednesday, 18th November, 1970.

Mr. R. Barry

It could not be more up-to-date.

Mr. Burton

Those are very wise words coming from the Commissioner. I want to ask the Minister how can crime be prevented in the absence of the Garda Síochána? At the moment throughout the country their numbers are being reduced. I do not know whether this was a matter of economics or whether it was the brain child of someone in his Department who suggested carrying out a survey —this was in the time of the Minister's predecessor, of course—and they worked with maps and suggested we could do without this or that barracks. Despite that, the Minister told us that this will lead to a more efficient service which is ridiculous. If the Garda Síochána are not stationed in rural areas they cannot prevent crime. In reply to a question the Minister said that 42 per cent of crimes of all descriptions within the city and county go undetected. That is practically half of them.

I want to come back again to the plight of Charleville. Last week the Minister told me and the House that the reduction in the number of hours the barracks are open gave a more efficient service. I would agree with him up to a point. There are probably more men on the beat but there is a complete lack of communication between the barracks and the members of the force even when they are needed in an emergency. There is a notice in the station window, I think, telling them to ring the district headquarters in Mallow. The Minister knows that Mallow is a very big district and that there is only one squad car there. If you were lucky with the phone system and got through to Mallow you might be told that the car was not available. It is not on a radio link and it could be anywhere in a vast area. Consequently, the unfortunate person at the other end of the phone in Charleville has no hope of getting any help.

In order to highlight that I want to tell the House that there was a meeting in Charleville recently to which all public representatives were invited. At that protest meeting there were protests from all types of people. I took special note of one complaint. One evening some time previously there was a row in a village near Charleville. The people tried to get through to Mallow but were unable to do so. Finally they enlisted the aid of the local county councillor and he succeeded, after a time, in getting through.

Mr. R. Barry

He must be powerful.

Mr. Burton

He pointed out that there was likely to be a serious row in the locality where there was a threat of firearms being used. It is hard to credit that nobody came out to inquire into the problem or to find out if anybody was shot until four o'clock the following evening. That is the service the Minister is giving the people and defending in this House. I can tell him another story. In Charleville a housewife was awakened recently and saw from her bedroom window a window being broken and a burglary about to take place across the street. She tried to telephone the gardaí at Mallow and failed the first time; she got through at a second attempt and when somebody arrived the burglary had taken place and the birds had flown. That is the service Charleville has now.

I am sure the Minister will tell me that it is because the gardaí must have the same as all other sections of the community—leisure and time off, in other words a five-day week. Nobody objects to that, they are entitled to it, but the machinery of the civic administration and the protection of the public must be kept in operation just as well as the machinery of industry where they have a five-day week. I am well aware that the Minister and his expert advisers are completely out of touch with the situation that exists not alone in Charleville but in many rural areas. The people there are just as entitled to a service as the people in this city. I am appealing to the Minister, despite what his advisers tell him, to have another look at this situation and if it is necessary to strengthen the force and to increase its numbers substantially that must be faced up to immediately. If it is a question of money it should and must be found. Otherwise, law and order will break down completely in rural areas.

Charleville was the subject of my question. Charleville is entitled to more gardaí. It has a large population. It has industries working 24 hours a day. It is on the main road between Cork and Limerick where there are all sorts of emergencies at all times. The least that should be done there is that arrangements should be made for a barrack orderly to be on duty at all hours in the station. When that is done the Minister should have a further look at the question of strengthening the force generally, not just there but in all rural areas.

Mr. R. Barry

I should like to join with my colleague, Deputy Burton, in appealing to the Minister to reconsider his and his Department's attitude towards Charleville Garda station. I remember the ex-Taoiseach, Mr. Seán Lemass, speaking in Charleville and saying that he was glad to say that Charleville was one of the up and coming towns in County Cork. That was the day he opened the extension to the Golden Vale cheese factory. That was not many years ago. Everyone, including Deputy Burton and myself, Deputy Meaney, Deputy Forde and others knows that, thanks be to God, Charleville is an up and coming town, yet, here we are in November, 1970, and the Minister and his advisers decide that now Charleville will have a lesser Garda service than it ever had before.

Here is a glaring case of injustice and mismanagement on the part of the Minister's Department. I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not accusing the Minister; I am accusing his Department in regard to their advice in this case. Can anyone imagine a town with a growing population of 2,500 to 3,000 people being left with a Garda station which is closed for a certain number of hours each day and a notice put up in the window to ring a certain number? This is not only going too far in Charleville, it is going too far in Fermoy also and all over the country. That is why, as a Corkman, I want to join with Deputy Burton in asking here, in the name of common sense, will the Minister get on with the job and give service and protection to the people?

Minister for Justice (Mr. O'Malley)

The first thing I want to say, in reply to both Deputies who have spoken, is that there is no question of some change having been made in recent times—when I speak of recent times I mean recent months or even in the last year—in relation to the policing of Charleville. As I pointed out last week in reply to a question asked by Deputy Burton, the present hours during which Charleville garda station is open were fixed on the 27th January, 1967. That is more than three years and nine months ago. There has been no change since nor has there been any change in the strength of the force.

Therefore, the same position has existed and has continued to exist in Charleville for a period of almost four years. So far as I am aware, there was no complaint about this station until the beginning of last month and I find it difficult to understand why suddenly, after its successful operation for three years and nine months, the service provided by the gardaí at Charleville should now be alleged to be inadequate or unsatisfactory in some way. I cannot accept that this is so. In the short time that was available to me this evening I recapped as far as I could on the strength of Charleville station. At present the strength of the station is one Sergeant and five Gardaí. The figures that I could obtain readily tonight unfortunately go back only six years to 1964. I find that the strength was the same then.

Therefore, there is no question whatever of any reduction either in opening hours or in strength at Charleville as seems to have been alleged tonight. In the course of his remarks Deputy Burton said that the people of Charleville are up in arms against the regulations that created this problem. Although the Deputy spoke for more than 15 minutes, at no time did he specify what these alleged regulations are supposed to be. I know of no regulations that are creating this problem. There is the general overall situation of manpower and financial resources in this country, whether it be in relation to the gardaí or to any other organisation, but there is no evidence whatever of any lessening of the service given in Charleville in recent years.

Mr. Coughlan

What about the five-day week?

Mr. O'Malley

It seems to be alleged by some people and, I think, implied in what Deputy Burton said, that because a station is not open 24 hours a day—it may be open as in this case for only seven hours a day during the normal office hours of 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. —there is no proper police service for the town. In fact, the position is that the whole point of closing the station outside these adequate office hours was to enable a greater and more effective police service to be provided. The old system of policing as we had it, and as we inherited it, was that a barrack orderly would be on duty all the time. The station orderly can contribute very little to the policing of the town or district in which he is on duty.

Mr. Coughlan

He has a telephone available to him.

Mr. R. Barry

Of course he has.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. O'Malley

He conveys information to district headquarters but in the present situation any member of the public can convey information direct to district headquarters himself and the public are given every encouragement to do so. It is possible for them to reach the district headquarters at least as quickly as going to a station and asking the man on duty there to act.

Mr. Coughlan

Surely he knows where the man on the beat is.

Mr. O'Malley

There would be an additional man on the beat. The town of Charleville, in so far as I know it, is not so large that the one or two men, as the case may be, who are on the beat and who would otherwise not be on the beat if they had to serve as barrack orderlies, are readily available for emergencies.

Mr. Coughlan

If one can find them, that is.

Mr. O'Malley

Furthermore, the six gardaí who are stationed at Charleville are living in or close to the town so that, if an emergency or a serious situation should arise, it is open to any member of the public to go to their homes. I am sure that in the case of an emergency, the vast majority of members of the Garda Síochána would respond immediately to the situation. There is no doubt about that. The important thing to remember is that, instead of a man sitting in a station for many hours at night, he is out on the beat preventing crime and keeping the peace in the town so that he is far more effective and far more efficient than if he were doing what the Deputies opposite seem to imply that he should be doing.

Mr. Coughlan

Facts prove otherwise.

Mr. O'Malley

They do not. It is a pity that Deputy Coughlan on his rare incursions into this House and, mercifully, they are rare——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputies please allow the Minister to continue?

Mr. Coughlan

I was here before the Minister came and I shall be here after he has gone.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister must be allowed to conclude.

Mr. O'Malley

Deputy Coughlan could have taken part in this debate earlier but he chose not to do so. He now endeavours to ensure that I will not be allowed make use of the limited time available to me.

Mr. R. Barry

We shall give the Minister an extra minute.

Mr. O'Malley

In spite of what the Deputies opposite said, to the effect that I and my Department and my predecessors have been deciding to give less service than was given before in, for example, a town like Charleville, the truth is the direct opposite.

Mr. Burton

Nonsense.

Mr. O'Malley

The recommendations of the Conroy Commission have been in effect since the 1st April, 1970. These recommendations created immense problems for me, for my Department and for the administration of the force in general because the Garda hours were reduced by one-sixth which, in effect, means a one-sixth reduction in the strength of the force. We have approached this situation in many ways in endeavouring to overcome the problems that were created. We do not grudge the gardaí the concessions given to them under the Conroy Report, which we readily implemented, but nobody denies that immense problems were created for me, for my Department and for my predecessor and these problems were created almost overnight by the revolutionary nature of the recommendations. These recommendations have now been in force for over six months.

Major changes in the administration of a force of the nature of the Garda Síochána which have been administered previously under somewhat outdated regulations inevitably mean that various teething troubles would arise. Unquestionably we have had problems, problems that were difficult and serious, but I have been trying to solve them during the past six months. We are doing this in a reasonable way. We must be reasonable to the gardaí. We must give them reasonable time off and reasonable facilities such as are enjoyed by other members of the community at present. We must provide a reasonable service but we must provide that service at a reasonable cost to the taxpayers.

Mr. R. Barry

What about Charleville?

An Ceann Comhairle

What about allowing the Minister to conclude?

Mr. O'Malley

We have been doing the best we can in difficult circumstances. It would be very easy for me as Minister for Justice to come in here and say that I will increase the force tomorrow morning by x men but the cost of a garda in pay and pensionability alone, not to mention the other extras that are inevitable, is £31 a week.

Notwithstanding that, the Government have under urgent consideration the question of a possible increase in the force in the not too distant future. As well as that, we have taken a large number of men off non-police duties and put them on police duties during the past six months. In that way, we have increased the effective strength of the force very considerably.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, the 19th November, 1970.