Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 11 Dec 1970

Vol. 250 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Appropriation Bill, 1970: All Stages.

Leave granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to apply a certain sum out of the Central Fund to the service of the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1969, and to appropriate to the proper supply services and purposes sums granted by the Central Fund (Permanent Provisions) Act, 1965, and this Act.

—(Minister for Finance).

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Question : "That the Bill be now read a Second Time" put and agreed to.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment and received for Final Consideration.

Question proposed : " That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I appreciate that all Stages of this Bill are being given to the Government today by agreement and I understand this is necessary if the services are not to break down.

This Bill must be passed before the end of the year. It will now have to be rushed through the Seanad which has not met since last July and be considered there on Christmas Eve. We have just passed dozens of Estimates involving countless millions of pounds without one word of discussion, again because we have no option, if the public services are not to run short of money and come to a standstill. I asked the Minister what amount of money was involved in all these Estimates which have been passed without one word, but he did not have the information with him. I see a figure in the Appropriation Bill, which, apparently, covers all these things, amounting to almost £463 million. That is a vast sum of money and it has been dealt with by this House in a rather offhand manner.

I believe it is a serious reflection on the way the Government are running the business of this House and this country. Even if we are told that token Estimates will be brought in later in the year, which will give an opportunity to discuss these Estimates, we know what value that is and we know the likelihood of time being made available to discuss these measures later in the year. If Parliamentary democracy is to continue to function and if there is to be any sort of continued respect for the supremacy of Parliament and for the authority of Parliament, votes like this should not go through the House without any discussion just because they have to be passed.

The time of this House has been taken up throughout the year in discussing one type of folly after another: such as the 7 Days Tribunal, the arms trial and Votes of Confidence in the Government, which were put down by the Taoiseach to justify himself before the country and before this House. The people's time was wasted discussing this type of thing, when the House should have been devoting its time and attention to discussing and analysing these Estimates; bringing to bear a critical mind on these Estimates and letting the people, through the news media, know what was going on.

I do not want to say much more because I know this Bill is being given by agreement because we have no option but this Government and this Parliament may have a great deal to answer for if it is going to reduce itself to a rubber stamp by imposing a bill on the taxpayers for £463 million without five minutes discussion. How could there be any respect for Parliamentary democracy? How could people really believe that we are the watchdogs of the public purse? How could people be expected to believe that we stand between them and extravagance, between them and a loss of public money? In the light of this carry-on is it any wonder that £100,000, which was apparently voted under some sort of miscellaneous Vote, without discussion, as is being done now, found its way into something else?

I am shocked at this performance. The Government are responsible for it because the Government have an overall majority in the House. They cannot blame anybody for anything. If it is necessary to sit six days a week, let us sit six days a week: but let us be masters of the public purse, let us be masters of this House or let us not. In my opinion things are drifting in a dangerous way.

We adjourned from the end of July until the end of October and it is no use the Government saying the Opposition did not oppose that adjournment. The Government have peculiar information and peculiar knowledge. For example, the Taoiseach and the Government must have known long before the Dáil reassembled that there would be a supplementary budget. The Taoiseach and the Government must have known long before the Dáil reassembled that there would be a threatened wage freeze bill. If the Taoiseach and the Government were keeping up to date with the happenings in the country they must have known there would have been talk about internment without trial, that if the supplementary budget, the Finance Bill implementing it, the proposed wage freeze bill and the threat of internment without trial were to be discussed in Parliament between the 28th October and Christmas Day there would be no time left for the discussion of the expenditure of hundreds of millions of pounds. In that light and in those circumstances, if the Government were responsible about the discharge of their duty, they would have recalled Parliament before 28th October.

It would be reckless in the extreme if this Bill and these Estimates that we have rubber-stamped by the dozen to the tune of endless millions of pounds were let go here. We are responsible to the people and the only way that Parliament and democracy can work is through this House but it can only work if the Government of the day arrange the sittings of this House and public business in such a way that people have an opportunity of finding out what is going on through discussions here.

I want to protest in the strongest possible manner about the way the Government have organised Parliament over the last 12 months, which involves the passing of Estimates amounting to over £463,000,000 without one word in the days before Christmas. I do not believe the promise to introduce token Estimates after Christmas is worth anything. Some other catastrophe will be let loose on the country which will absorb the time of this House and prevent discussion on these matters.

Mr. Tully

Six or seven years ago the then Taoiseach invited representatives from the two Opposition parties to discuss with the Minister for Finance and himself some way in which the business of the House could be more expeditiously dealt with, particularly the financial business. After long and detailed discussions it was agreed that certain steps would be taken. One of them was that Departments would be permitted to spend a larger amount of the Budget estimate than they had previously been—I think it was up to three-quarters, before the 31st December each year—and it was believed that the double debate, which up to then had taken place on these matters, would be cut out. It was felt that it would then be possible to debate in a reasonable time each item as it came along and at the end of the year it would be possible to offer a comment on the amount of money spent in that financial year, not on items which had already been debated either in the previous year or much earlier that year.

The token Estimate idea—I agree with Deputy Fitzpatrick here—is a vehicle through the medium of which we are allowed to debate something about which we have a pet theory or a point we want brought out in the open, but it is not really satisfactory because most of the money already has beer spent. I do not go quite so far as Deputy Fitzpatrick and say that the Government are entirely to blame: we are to blame because we have allowed this to happen year after year and it is about time we pulled up our socks, so to speak. I do not think it is a reasonable thing for 144 men to come in here and agree to play, as it were, " babby house " like small children at the back of their own house. I do not think that should be allowed here and I do not think the public will think much of us if we allow this to continue.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Tully

I have no readymade solution, but I think the time has come for the Taoiseach to stop his shenanigans with all these plots and counter plots and putting the magnifying glass on Minister after Minister to see who is plotting against him. He has not got a deestalker cap, but I suppose he will buy one and go around with his magnifying glass trying to find out who is plotting against him. Would he, for goodness' sake, give it up and see if there is a possibility of doing something instead to bring the business of this House up to date? We should be a modern Parliament and we should be able to deal with the matters that come before us in a reasonably sensible way. Deputy Fitzpatrick has laid the blame entirely on the Government and, though it would give me great pleasure to do that too, I do not think it would be fair because we must take some of the blame ourselves.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): They have 75 votes over there.

Mr. Tully

We have allowed them to do this. We have not challenged them, but I am challenging the Government now : do not come back here again with the same idea. The Minister may say he is dealing with a problem he inherited. He should, I think, show that he is his own man and that he has got ideas how his Department should be run and the Taoiseach should show the House that he knows his business and knows more about the running of the House than he appears to have known for the past 12 months. If he is in the position of always having to look over his shoulder and feeling if there is a knife stuck in his back it is not an easy thing for him in that position to put his mind down to the business of this House. But we cannot continue this indefinitely and the time has come when something very definite must be done.

I suggest the Taoiseach should do one of two things—either agree to discuss with the other parties in the House the question of a committee system to allow us to deal with matters properly or, alternatively, set up another committee to go into the business of seeing how the financial business of the House is being run so that we can, at least in December, 1971, talk about the matters that affected us in 1971 and not the matters that affected us in 1970. What we are doing here today is discussing the matters that affected us up to December, 1969.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

There is one matter in particular I wish to raise on this Appropriation Bill. I addressed a number of questions to Ministers during the week; I addressed similar questions to Ministers this time last year. Those questions related to the wild extravagance of members of the Government and their abuse of their rights and privileges in despatching numerous Christmas cards to their constituencies. I want to make a protest.

An Ceann Comhairle

These are matters of detail which will relevantly arise for discussion on the relevant Estimates. Details like this are not usual on the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

If we wait for the Estimates the matter may be overlooked. I want to avail of this opportunity to protest in the strongest possible way against the manner in which members of the Government are abusing their rights and privileges. It is disgraceful that £600 of taxpayers' money should be spent by one Parliamentary Secretary on Christmas cards.

An Ceann Comhairle

The question of Christmas cards does not arise on this Bill.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

They were bought out of money voted by this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

And the Deputy will get an opportunity of discussing them on the appropriate Estimates.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan) You could get a nice lot of Christmas cards for that kind of money.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a matter for the Chair.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I am not accusing the Chair of cashing in on this Christmas card racket. This is public money and the manner in which public money is being spent is disgraceful.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will be allowed to make a protest in an orderly fashion on the relevent Estimate.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

If I make a protest on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries against the £600 the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Fahey, is spending on Christmas cards this year, how can I include the Taoiseach, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Minister for Transport and Power, the Minister for Defence and the rest of them? Public money is being used and I want to link up all the wasteful expenditure by Deputy Lalor, Deputy Fahey——

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise on the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

How, on the one debate, can I deal with this expenditure?

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy will allow me.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Public money is being used.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has asked a question but he does not want to listen to the reply to the question.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I should like to hear it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may raise these matters on the appropriate Estimate or he can put down a motion dealing with these matters.

Mr. P. Belton

Sure the money will have been spent by that time.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Exactly. Moneys voted to different Ministers in a variety of Government Departments are being misspent and Ministers are abusing their rights and privileges in charging their constituents for Christmas cards and their postage.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will not allow the Deputy to continue to discuss this matter of detail on the Appropriation Bill. Would the Deputy please listen? The matter does not arise for discussion on the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I want to make it arise. I respectfully submit that in No. 3 there is the question of the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Taoiseach; in No. 37 there is the question of the salaries and expenses for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and, in No. 40, the question of the salaries and expenses for the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter does not arise for discussion on the Appropriation Bill and the Deputy, as I have already pointed out, will get a relevant opportunity on the relevant Estimate of raising the matter. If the Deputy continues on his present line I will reluctantly have to ask him to resume his seat.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I should not like to do that, but I want the Chair to facilitate me on this Bill and to be helpful to me. I do not wish to embarrass the Chair. I have the greatest affection and admiration for the Chair, but I have a protest to make about the wasteful expenditure of public money and about the manner in which certain Ministers are charging the taxpayers thousands of pounds for Christmas cards and postage, a charge which is absolutely unnecessary. I put it to you, a Cheann Comhairle, that a man in a job carrying £6,000 a year should be able to buy his own Christmas cards and pay the postage on them instead of sticking his hands into the pockets of the taxpayers.

An Ceann Comhairle

Again, I would remind the Deputy this does not arise on the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Is it right that the taxpayers should be obliged to pay for Christmas cards delivered to their own doors? I think it is wrong.

Mr. Geoghegan

How many did the Deputy send out?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Any I sent out I paid for and I paid for the stamps. Mr. Dillon saw to that.

Mr. Geoghegan

It is on the records what the Deputy did.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I did not send them out to next-door neighbours-free, gratis and for nothing.

Mr. Geoghegan

Grow up.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

When we have a serious economic problem is it right that the Exchequer should be raided by a group of extravagant men who can obviously find no other way of spending public money than by lavishly buying Christmas cards and sending them out, free, gratis and for nothing? That is the way they are going. They are not going to their personal friends. They are taking the names off the voting register. They are using the voters' lists to send out Christmas cards to people for which those same people must pay as well as paying for the postage of them. This same Government were responsible for increasing the price of the postage stamp which makes it impossible for the ordinary citizen to send greetings this year. The people outside must pay for their cards and pay for their stamps but you have £600 going out in the case of one Parliamentary Secretary and hundreds of pounds going out in the case of others——

Mr. Andrews

On a point of order, that is not true. Deputy Flanagan made the point that certain other Parliamentary Secretaries and Ministers are involved to the extent of hundreds of pounds. That is not true.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): It is not a point of order.

Mr. Andrews

It is a point of fact.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): We are not at a debating society meeting now.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Add the postage of ninepence per card to the actual price of the card which they are sending out and it runs into thousands of pounds. Last year, a trick was availed of in the reply to a question I asked here in relation to a financial matter——

An Ceann Comhairle

This is Par liament. We are not at the crossroads.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

It is late in the day that you are thinking of that.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a waste of Parliamentary time which is also a waste of money. It can be debated on the Estimate.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Do you call it a waste of time to question the voting of tens of thousands of the taxpayers' money to be squandered foolishly——

Deputies

Chair, Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

It arises on the Estimate.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Can any committee be set up by this House to investigate the gross abuse of privilege by Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries at Christmas time flooding their constituencies with Christmas cards which must be paid for, together with their postage, at the expense of the taxpayers? Are they not sufficiently well paid to be able to pay the postage and the price of the Christmas cards without sticking their hands into the pockets of the unfortunate members of this community who have already to pay double turnover tax, more for transport, more for fuel, more for light, more for bus and train fares-and these lads squandering tens of thousands of pounds in order to throw Christmas greetings into the letter-boxes of the public? I hope the public will be wise enough to send back these cards to those Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries because they are an insult to the public who must pay for the cards and the stamps on the envelopes which are sent to them. The Government underestimate the intelligence of the people by the squandering of the taxpayers' money in this disgraceful manner. My words are a source of laughter to the Parliamentary Secretary who is present, whatever his Department may be.

Mr. Geoghegan

Grow up and do not be a child. Be a man.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I protest against this behaviour by Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries. It is disgraceful. Certainly it is an abuse of the rights and the privileges attaching to their public offices and the matter should be examined by a committee of this House. I hope to raise the matter at a later date. I make my complaint now officially about this disgraceful waste of public money. The sooner the public at large realise the set-up in this respect, the better for everybody.

Mr. L'Estrange

It is a disgrace that in the dying days of this year we are placing a further burden of millions of pounds on an already overtaxed people without being able to give a thorough examination to each and every one of the Estimates for the respective Departments. Things are going from bad to worse. In the past, we generally discussed 16, 18 or 20 Estimates and left over the remainder to be taken later in the financial year. The position at present is that we have fully discussed only four or five Estimates and we are leaving over 16 or 18 Estimates to be taken later in the financial year. Certainly, this is a waste of Parliamentary time and it is a waste of Deputies' time.

A few moments ago the Ceann Comhairle spoke about wasting Parliamentary time but surely this procedure of leaving over Estimates for debate until months later is a serious waste of Parliamentary time and public money. The present Government have prostituted every principle which an efficient Government should cherish. This nation is sliding down the slippery slope to bankruptcy. No national loan was floated this year because you know and the Government know that the people would not subscribe to it because they have lost confidence in the Government—and the Government do not want to have that cast at them although they have only themselves to blame for the present anarchy which is upon us.

The national Parliament is being brought into disrepute. The institutions of Government are being treated with contempt by the present Government. Indeed, we are being made a laughing stock for the rest of the world. A Government divided, disunited and tottering are leading us from one crisis to another.

Mr. Colley

The by-elections are over.

Mr. L'Estrange

The knives are still out. They are still there to be plunged in the Taoiseach's back.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Would the Minister like a discussion on the by-elections?

Mr. Colley

I do not think the Chair would allow it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy L'Estrange.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): It is not a bad effort to increase one's vote from 8,000 to 13,000.

Mr. L'Estrange

Four by-elections were held since last March. We have increased our vote substantially and we are quite satisfied with that at the moment.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): If it were not for Donegal you would not win an argument.

Mr. L'Estrange

The people's money was misappropriated.

An Ceann Comhairle

Only the matters contained in the Bill can be discussed relevantly.

Mr. L'Estrange

We are imposing a burden of millions of pounds on an already overtaxed people. The country is drifting into anarchy as a result of bad Government. Inflation is rampant here. According to figures supplied to me last week by the Taoiseach there are 151,000 fewer people at work in this country today than there were in 1951. Instead of tackling these problems, the time of Parliament and of Deputies has been wasted since last May. In May last we spent ten or 12 days debating arms and a vote of confidence in the Government. When we came back after the recess we had another five or six days of wasted Parliamentary time on another vote of confidence in the Government. We know what happened afterwards. Certain people said they had no confidence in the Government and that they wanted a change of leader. Yet, when the gun was put to their head and because promises were made that they would not be prosecuted for the misappropriation of £100,000 of the taxpayers' money, they marched in behind their Leader and voted to keep the present Government in office.

The Seanad has not met since last June or July. I challenge Deputy Colley or the Taoiseach to tell this House the number of Bills that have been passed by this House since last May or June——

An Ceann Comhairle

That has nothing to do with the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): This is very important. This is an emergency Bill.

Mr. L'Estrange

A disunited Government are not in a position to govern properly. Their idea is to create crisis after crisis in order to divert the attention of the people and to keep them from realising what is happening within the ranks of the Fianna Fáil Party and within the Cabinet. Is it not true that the Seanad did not even meet since last June but next week it will be called upon to do inside a week what should take, perhaps, two or three months?

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): In a Christmas atmosphere.

Mr. B. Lenihan

In the best atmosphere in which one could work.

Mr. L'Estrange

Deputy Lenihan is Minister for Transport without much " Power " now in the Government because the Taoiseach does not trust him because we know that he was jumping on both sides for a long time. He will go to the Seanad and say " I cannot accept an amendment because we cannot bring back the Dáil until next February and I want this to go through immediately."

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not usual to discuss the affairs of the Seanad in this House.

Mr. L'Estrange

But there is money in this——

Mr. Colley

This is a waste of parliamentary time.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Minister spoke about low standards in high places and he was the first to give an inkling to the people of what was happening inside his own party——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Colley

This kind of performance is an insult to Parliament.

Mr. L'Estrange

We are entitled to point out that we are voting this sum of £462 million without a proper discussion by the lawfully elected Members of Dáil Éireann because of rows and squabbles inside the Fianna Fáil Party and because we had to have votes of confidence on this, that and the other.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Deputy should take it easy. This is bad for his health.

Mr. L'Estrange

Never mind my health. The Minister should be a little more concerned, perhaps, about his own.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Mind the blood vessels.

Mr. L'Estrange

We are entitled to point out those things. The Parliament will not function in this way. The people now realise how they are being fooled. The time has come when a committee should be set up immediately to streamline the working of Parliament. We should say to the Government that we would be prepared to come back early in January and discuss those matters. It is completely wrong to discuss next May Votes for the Department of Lands or the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries when the money has been spent six or eight or ten months and, in some cases, a year previously. This is ludicrous and we are being made a laughing stock.

Dr. O'Donovan

I am aware of the custom that this Bill did not give rise to a debate, but last year I did raise the matter of the size of this Bill compared with ten years ago when Fianna Fáil were already three years in office. It is now more than three times what it was in the Appropriations Act, 1960. We had members of the Government constantly yelling their heads off about inflation while the Government themselves have been the greatest creators of inflation. That comes out in print today. I admit I missed it on the Order Paper this morning but when I came back into the House I found to my astonishment that it was there. Despite that, I think I can say a few words about it.

At least £50 million of the expenditure in this Bill could be taken out of it and it would be forgotten in a week. The waste and extravagance of the Government is disgraceful. What has been said about the waste of time is true. As I said last May, this House is slowly grinding to a halt. We have had no worthwhile legislation put through the House because we have been discussing a political rag-bag all the year. Now we are asked to appropriate £462 million. I do not care if Deputies opposite say " You are supposed to be a socialist." Socialists can do sums and be careful about money and they are rightly careful of public money. This shows no care for the public purse. The present Minister for Finance may not be unduly to blame for the amount in this Bill but, since the Government act as one unit, he bears responsibility like every other member of it. Ministers cannot speak as if they are separate entities. Yesterday, I said to the Minister for Transport and Power that he and his Department were not solely to blame.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Collective responsibility.

Dr. O'Donovan

That is what I am talking about. The Government are collectively responsible for this expenditure of £462 million. But for the fact that we are only a small part of the sterling area, the value of our money internationally would be in dire jeopardy at present because of the massive expenditure. It will tell internally; that is where it is telling at present. It is not the wages and salaries paid inside this Bill that cause the trouble; it is the way the Government have been creating credit to meet this kind of situation, deliberate creation of money by the printing press. Eventually, the ordinary workers realised what was happening and realised that if they made settlements for two years, it was too long a period and they were down and out before the time was up. We had people saying it would be well if the settlements were for two-and-a-half or three years. From the point of view of the right wing element supporting the Government it would be fine if there was a settlement for five years and let every worker have no boots on his feet at the end of that time.

The Government may act as they like and act as irresponsibly as they have been acting in this connection for years. There was a period when the former Minister for Finance, Dr. Ryan, was able to say : " Revenue is buoyant." He should have secreted some of that buoyant revenue instead of using it. This year, revenue was buoyant but we end up at the end of all that magnificent buoyancy-brought about, of course, by the use of the printing press—with a supplementary Budget and borrowing and a deficit—all three.

It is useless to pretend that what has been going on this year is solely a political matter. That is one angle of it but there is another which is at least as serious and which has not got adequate attention and that is the financial question. It was Lenin, that extremely able man, who said that inflation would destroy the West.

Mr. L'Estrange

I thought the Deputy said "Lenihan."

Dr. O'Donovan

Ulyanov, to give him his correct name. That was his correct family name. Certainly, inflation is in danger of destroying this country at the moment. I am not saying for a moment that the present Minister for Finance, who talks about low standards in high places, has low standards; but I think he is caught in a web and I doubt if he is the man to cut that web. I was glad to see the Department of Finance showing a good example by the announcement in the newspapers that they were going to cut their own salaries. Years ago the Department of Finance was accused of being a mangy old lion with all its teeth drawn: whatever it was at that time, it certainly has not a tooth left in its head now. But if they show good example, let me praise them for it. When I was there, even though they were getting a bit ground down, the Department of Finance certainly had a lot more teeth than they have now.

This Appropriation Bill has more than three times the amount of money appropriated in it, arithmetically, than it had ten years ago, and even in real terms it has at least twice the amount of money appropriated in it. This is an intolerable burden. The former leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, now our President, was very concerned a long time ago as to whether the weight of administration was not becoming too heavy on the economy of the country. There is no doubt whatever about it now. Any sensible person knows that the weight of administration is altogether too heavy on the country.

There is no use in the Minister answering me by saying that a large part of the Bill is for benefits; or, as Deputy Burke might say, "A large part of this Bill is for the unemployed and the old age pensioners and we always do it. When we came into office there was not a penny in the Exchequer." The fact of the matter is that people must live in accordance with the means that are available. If you use the printing press on the massive scale the present Government are using it you will end up destroying the value of the currency and this will give rise to problems with which this Government will not be able to cope. The Government which have to cope with these problems will get into bad odour with the people, because while somebody is spending a fortune they have inherited they are hail fellow well met with everybody. That is the position with the present Government.

Good foundations were laid in the 1950s and there was no return for them, but the present Government have gone to hell and high water with waste and extravagance. There is no use in saying they have not.

Dr. FitzGerald

I am a relatively new Member of this House, although with some limited experience in another place, but in the short period I have been here I have become increasingly perturbed at the gradual breakdown of the system of parliamentary democracy in the handling of legislation, in the handling of Estimates and in getting through the business we should be doing here. The sense of frustration which this has given rise to on all sides of the House is growing. I mean on all sides of the House because there are many Deputies on the other side of the House who are concerned too that our parliamentary institutions should work properly and who, like us on this side of the House, feel that something is going very wrong indeed when Parliament as the years pass, as in the last three years, gets further behind in its work, does less and less work and the process of legislation, the process of the control of expenditure and the things that Parliament should be doing are grinding to a halt.

I am not simply using a cliché when I say " grinding to a halt" to exaggerate or make a point. I mean what I say. I will illustrate this statistically, if I may, and I hope relevantly. Four years ago at this point in the year three Estimates remained to be discussed. Three years ago at this point of time 13 Estimates remained to be discussed. Last year at this point in the year 30 Estimates remained to be discussed and there are 39 this year. So far as dealing with the financial business of the House is concerned, we are grinding to a halt. From a position where three years ago we had completed 95 per cent of our work in that part of our business we are at the stage now where we have only completed roughly 20 per cent. That is an extraordinary trend.

This is not a year, mark you, in which there has been a general election to interrupt the work of the House. There was some excuse for last year. It is true there have been abnormalities. Debates have taken place which need not have taken place but for the action of some Government Ministers. But, even allowing for the time taken for those debates—indeed they took up a week or so of parliamentary time— there is no excuse whatever for the state we have got into. It might be argued that perhaps the answer to this is that the House has been so busy legislating that it had not time for its financial business. May I just mention the record there. In the first half of 1968 this House passed 14 Acts of some significance. I think I am entitled to make this contrast. If I am to make my point about the failure to deal with financial business I must make it clear why this is so, that it is not because of other factors at work and I submit I am entitled to make reference to that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is aware that the Estimates have been passed and cannot be gone into in detail now?

Dr. FitzGerald

My point is that we are at the stage that we have not discussed at this point 39 of our Estimates but we have had on earlier occasions, three years ago, only three not discussed, two years ago 13, and last year 30. I appreciate we in the Opposition have been forced, to enable the country to carry on, to agree by means of this extraordinary measure here to let them through at this stage and have a discussion later on when the money is all spent and when we have no control over it.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Deputy is now giving the precise example of what has held up business for the last 18 months.

Mr. P. Belton

What is the Minister talking about? You are only interested in sackings and gunrunning.

Dr. FitzGerald

The Minister and the Government regard criticism of any kind, no matter how factually backed it is, as holding up the business of the House. The job of the Opposition is to oppose constructively and that is what I am doing. I am pointing out the difficulties we are getting into and I am suggesting that a radical reform of the way Parliament works is required to get through our business. I am entitled to do that. That is what I am here for and I will not be put off by the Minister.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Some new entrants to the Dáil have not helped.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): On a point of order, I wish to submit that the line being pursued by Deputy Garret FitzGerald is entirely in order. We have passed here today some dozens of Estimates by agreement without discussion. We had to agree to give this Appropriation Bill today by agreement without discussion.

Mr. Colley

Surely this is not a point of order? You have not ruled Deputy FitzGerald out of order, Sir.

Dr. FitzGerald

The Minister is doing his best to be out of order.

Mr. Colley

Deputy Fitzpatrick has not raised a point of order.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Leas-Cheann Comhairle will decide whether it is a point of order, not the Minister.

Mr. Colley

Deputy Fitzpatrick knows it is not.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): It is not a matter of what Deputy Fitzpatrick thinks; it is what the Chair thinks. I think it is very relevant to point out that due to Government action it was necessary to pass today without discussion dozens of Estimates, involving over £400 million, because there was not time to discuss them. That is what Deputy FitzGerald is saying.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will also appreciate that on the Fifth Stage of the Appropriation Bill no details may be discussed. It is a global measure.

Dr. FitzGerald

I have no intention of discussing details, although there are some tantalising ones like Christmas cards one would like to develop on. I accept your ruling on that, Sir. I am speaking in the most general terms possible on this subject. I am concerned that owing to the way in which matters have been handled by the Government we have reached the stage where we have had to pass 39 Estimates without discussion. Last year it was 30, the year before 13 and the year before that three. We have therefore changed from covering 95 per cent of our work to covering 20 per cent of our work. That is a marked deterioration. This is not because there has been a flood of constructive legislation going through this House from the Government. In fact the contrary is the case. If we look back over the last few years, and if we rule out the routine legislation which takes place all the time, the Finance Act and things of this kind, and routine Bills increasing the capital of Bord Fáilte from this to that, the record with regard to legislation is that in the first half of 1968, before we got into the mess we are in now, we passed 14 Bills of some significance—I will go into them if necessary to prove my point— last year we passed six and this year two. The only Bills of any significance we have passed this year are the Housing Bill and the Health Bill. We are coming to a complete halt. We are no longer legislating. In my recollection, as somebody always interested in public life, this must be the year in which this House has produced the least legislation, perhaps, in the history of the State. Even the size of the Official Report volumes is an indication. They are not bound yet and they are untidy but that is all we have.

Mr. B. Lenihan

This is undergraduate stuff. It is terrible.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Minister does not understand it.

Mr. E. Collins

At least we can go in and out of the universities through the doors and not the windows.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies should allow the Deputy in possession to continue.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Minister does not like the undergraduates. He had to go out through the window.

Mr. P. Belton

He is a bluffer and he always was.

Mr. B. Lenihan

It is childish.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy FitzGerald without interruption.

Dr. FitzGerald

Many of our undergraduates are mature enough to make the kind of criticisms they are making and they are becoming increasingly disrespectful of our institutions which are failing to do their job. At graduate level the dissatisfaction is even greater and Members of this House, whether they are graduates or not, are even more dissatisfied.

Mr. B. Lenihan

This is more childishness.

Dr. FitzGerald

The situation is becoming impossible. The country's whole machinery of Government is grinding to a halt. In this year we have two Acts of any consequence to our credit and, indeed, the total number is only 18.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair must point out to the Deputy that we are getting away from the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Correct.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is a global discussion.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Deputy does not know what it is about.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister is not being helpful.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Minister realises the significance of the debate. He thought it would be brushed under the carpet and rushed through without a word.

Dr. FitzGerald

I submit that I am entitled to complain about the situation in which we find ourselves in having to pass a Bill relating to 39 matters which have not been discussed. I am entitled in making that point to submit that this is not because constructive work was done. Virtually no constructive work was done. We have only two Bills to our credit of any importance, as against six last year and 14 in half of the previous year. In terms of total numbers of Bills we had 18 this year, 33 last year and 28 the year before. No matter how you measure it, whether it is in sheer quantity of legislation, or quantity of legislation of consequence and importance, or in terms of the numbers of Estimates we have passed, we have got through, in this year, a tiny fraction of the work we have got through in normal years.

This is a process which began in 1968, has continued on, and is now in its third year. We are entitled to protest about this and to put it to the Government that some radical change will have to be made in the way the business of this House is handled. For us to give up our right in relation to the control of expenditure, which is what we are being asked to do and what we have had to do today in the interests of the country continuing to be run, is something which this House should not be asked to do. It is not our fault on this side of the House. We have been a constructive Opposition throughout, not an obstructive Opposition. We have endeavoured to discuss matters fully and fairly and within the limits of order. Individually we have at times trespassed, no doubt, in that regard but, on the whole, we have done our job.

What other factor might have influenced this adversely? Is it that the Government have been so generous with Private Members' time that there has been no opportunity to discuss these things? Not at all. Virtually no Private Members' time was given. Indeed, may I make the point that even when Private Members' time is given, it bears no relation to the Private Members' time available in other countries.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate that it is no fault of the Chair that these things happen. The Chair finds itself with the Appropriation Bill and some other vehicle must be found for criticism of this kind.

Mr. L'Estrange

On a point of order, since we came to an agreement to allow this to pass surely this is the vehicle. There should be a certain amount of give and take. If there were no give and take by the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party we could have held the Government here every night between now and 30th December. We could have done that and, if we have agreed to give and take, there should be give and take on this matter also.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is bound by the Standing Orders of the House. The Chair is trying to conduct the business of the House on that basis and is allowing the Deputy to proceed generally so far as money matters are concerned.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): On a point of order, on the Fifth Stage——

Mr. B. Lenihan

These are childish debating tactics.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan):——I think any Deputy is entitled to comment on what is in the Bill. This Bill, as I understand it, is giving legislative effect to 39 Estimates which have not been discussed. I submit that any Deputy is entitled to point out, to point out the undesirability of it, and to point out how it could have been avoided and should have been avoided.

Mr. R. Burke

On a point of order——

Mr. B. Lenihan

A marvellous debating society.

Mr. R. Burke

——it was agreed that this Appropriation Bill would be taken at 3 p.m. today. No undertaking was given as to a limitation on the discussion on it. I want to make that very clear.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is not in any way inhibiting discussion so far as the Appropriation Bill is concerned. The Chair is pointing out what the limitations are in regard to the Appropriation Bill.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

On a point of order——

Mr. B. Lenihan

Another one?

Sir Anthony Esmonde

——surely if the Opposition have agreed to facilitate the Government they are entitled to make their point as to why they have done so. It is up to them as an Opposition to do that. Otherwise this Parliament would cease to function and would become a group of yes-men and nothing else.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Any other point of order?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair appreciates the point but all the Chair is doing is pointing out that what are dealt with in an Appropriation Bill are matters of finance of which the House is aware. The discussion is global in that sense. The Deputy must keep within that.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): That is the point. We are not aware of that because we did not get an opportunity of discussing them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair finds itself presented with this type of agreement.

Dr. FitzGerald

Agreement?

Mr. Andrews

Yes, agreement.

Dr. FitzGerald

I know there is an agreement but I am getting increasingly confused as to what the agreement is.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Talk about wasting Parliamentary time.

Mr. Andrews

There is an agreement and there must be some integrity about agreements reached between the Whips.

Dr. FitzGerald

I am merely asking what it is.

Mr. Andrews

The agreement was that we would get this piece of legislation today.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Are you not getting it?

Mr. L'Estrange

It was to be discussed at 3 o'clock.

Mr. Andrews

And that the matter would conclude once and for all today. There is a precedent for this. There is no question about that.

Mr. P. Belton

It is only 4 o'clock.

Mr. Andrews

I appreciate that. I am not trying to stifle the discussion. On the contrary.

Mr. Tully

The only objection I have to the debate going on is that it is preventing the Minister for Finance from going before the television cameras to withdraw the Prices and Incomes Bill. Perhaps we could excuse him and then continue the debate.

Mr. Colley

The Deputy seems to have more information than I have.

Dr. O'Donovan

We saw the television cameras there.

Mr. Colley

They were there for another purpose.

Dr. O'Donovan

Perhaps.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy FitzGerald.

Dr. FitzGerald

I hope I understand the position. I was worried by Deputy Andrews' intervention in case there was something I did not know. He has gone to some trouble to inform me that it was agreed to take this Bill today. I thought it would be clear that in talking on it I had appreciated that. He suggested that it must be concluded by 5 o'clock. As I do not intend to detain the House as long as that I cannot see the relevance of his comment to me. I make no comment on whether he is correct. I have no information on that. This does not concern me because I am not interested in 5 o'clock in this House. I hope to be elsewhere at 5 o'clock so I do not understand what his intervention was about.

Mr. Andrews

My intervention was exactly due to that.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. L'Estrange

If the Minister could suck as well as he can blow the Shannon would be drained long ago.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy FitzGerald, without interruption from either side of the House.

Dr. FitzGerald

The Parliamentary Secretary referred to an agreement with a clear implication that I was in breach of it. I could not see which agreement I was in breach of.

Mr. Andrews

Obviously the Deputy was not aware of the agreement.

Dr. FitzGerald

I am perfectly aware of the agreement but I cannot see why the Parliamentary Secretary wanted to come in here and tell me there was some agreement as if I were in breach of it.

Mr. B. Lenihan

On the Bill.

Dr. FitzGerald

Indeed, on the Bill. I am trying to talk on the Bill but I am experiencing great difficulty in doing so. It is now, I think, ten minutes since I managed to say anything on the Bill.

Mr. Colley

Too many points of order.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

If the Minister for Transport and Power would clear out of the House it would be much easier to continue this debate.

Dr. FitzGerald

I submit I am entitled to complain about the circumstances in which this Bill comes before us and the fact that we are being asked to vote the money in it, adding up to the rather formidable total of £462 million, without discussion of the great bulk of it, with only a discussion of a minority portion of it. I am entitled to submit that the reasons for that are not ones that are to the credit of the Government or indeed of the House. It is not because we have been having important discussions of legislational consequences, not because time was given for Private Members' Business. On the contrary, there has never been less legislation, never less Private Members' time.

Mr. L'Estrange

No Private Members' time.

Dr. FitzGerald

I shall make one comment on Private Members' time before passing on. The system is absolutely unsatisfactory here. I understand that in other Parliaments ample time is given for Private Members' Business and the Opposition can give up their time to discuss particular matters they want to raise. We are utterly frustrated in this House. The Rules of the House do not allow us to raise matters we wish to raise and we have no time to give up for that purpose. I shall not pursue that line, which you may regard as irrelevant, Sir, but it is a point I think I am entitled to raise in this context.

I would ask the Government at this stage to re-consider the whole position and to try to see what can be done to catch up on our position. Each year our position is getting worse. It could not be worse than it is now. In order to get back to any normality we will have to catch up, in the year 1971, on an enormous backlog of work. We will have to deal in 1971 with 39 Estimates of the current year. We should, to get back to the standards of earlier years, get through 50 odd Estimates of 1971. That is 90 Estimates to get through and we have got through ten this year. The position created by the Government by the introduction of this Bill at this stage is that they have left this Dáil with nine times as much work on Estimates to do next year as has been done this year, even though this year there was no general election.

There is an enormous backlog of legislation and indeed many of the Departments for which we are voting money here are Departments which have had Bills a long time in the queue waiting to come to this House and be dealt with. These Departments are in many cases utterly frustrated with the position. Indeed, dissatisfaction with our parliamentary system is not confined, as Deputy Lenihan seems to think, to undergraduates. It extends very widely indeed. In the public administration at the present time there is great dissatisfaction because of the fact that so many things urgently need to be done and cannot be done because there is not parliamentary time because of the Government's failure to manage their business in this House. I do not see an early improvement. I do not see how, if we have to discuss next year, nine times as many Estimates as we have discussed this year, and we will presumably have to try to catch up on some of the backlog of legislation-there have been only two important Bills out of 18 in all this year-this can be done. It will be years before we get into a position of being able to handle our business properly because of the incompetence of this Government in managing our affairs.

This incompetence extends further. In some cases legislation like the Higher Education Bill has been waiting for 18 or 20 months. In other cases I understand legislation has been waiting for as long as five or six years. In addition to the dissatisfaction of these many Departments with the failure to get on with the work of legislation there is the fact that, even in areas where administrative decisions need to be taken by Ministers in order to facilitate the work of the Department for which we are voting money, these decisions have not been taken. The backlog of crucial decisions is now such that the entire development of this country is being held up.

The truth is that we have never adjusted to the change in our conditions that has come about through the economic growth of the last ten years. Deputies on the other side know that I have never been slow to give credit for the fact that there has been economic growth in this period. I recognise that this Government have been in office and I recognise that a significant contribution to this economic growth came from this Government. But I have, ever since I have turned my mind specifically to politics five or six years ago, been concerned with, and expressed my concern on many occasions, the fact that the Government, although making a significant contribution to the achievement of economic growth, have totally failed to grapple with the problems and possibilities and potentialities of economic growth. Our whole system of decision making at Cabinet level, of public administration, of legislation in this House, of control of public expenditure, all of these have failed to respond. No reforms have been introduced and they are breaking down under the strain. The whole system is breaking down under the strain.

A Government who can take some credit for achieving the economic growth we have today do owe some responsibility to the country to adjust themselves and their methods to the needs created by that situation. One can understand that after a period of stagnation such as the 1950s there was a period of some years during which the Government themselves, even though achieving some successes in this field, were perhaps lacking confidence in these successes continuing. One can understand that it was not until economic growth continued for some years that the Government began to believe themselves that this was something that could be sustained. Therefore, some years were lost. In other circumstances, if we had a more imaginative Government, one with more insight into our problems, one capable of looking at social, cultural and political aspects as well as the purely economic ones, then the reaction to economic growth might have come more rapidly and the reforms necessary to ensure that the business of the country was carried on properly might have come sooner.

However, even on the most charitable interpretation, even allowing the Government was lacking in imagination and insight and that its members had been so depressed by the experience of an earlier decade that they could not respond to the needs of the position, I would have thought that anybody with any insight at all into our problems, anybody even watching what was happening in the country would, by 1962 or 1963 at the latest, have woken up to the fact that we were in a different era here and that there would be enormous reforms required throughout the whole breadth of public life, that these would require a much more efficient parliamentary machine, a much more efficient public administration, a much more efficient Government. Yet now in 1970, 12 years after the process of economic growth began, nothing has been done. What parliamentary reforms have been introduced in this period? None. The Government have simply allowed the mechanism of Parliament to break down and we are in the position today that it has totally broken down. We are in the position where we have one-fifth of our financial business done and two Bills of any consequence passed in the current year.

Surely even this Government must see that radical changes are needed? I appreciate that the Government, decimated by the events of this year, losing some of what were described as their ablest members and indeed, whatever their other qualities, there were able men among them, are not perhaps the best Government to tackle the kind of problems we have now facing us; but they must make the effort to do so with their limited talent, and the talent is limited in the Government. They must try to get things under control. They must, if necessary, get fresh advice. If the advice they are getting at present is not sufficient they must increase the resources of talent available to them among those who advise and assist them to try to institute rapidly the reforms necessary to get our business dealt with and to ensure that the whole process of economic growth does not break down because of the total failure of the administrative system to cope with it. The time lag which takes place between the recognition of a problem as one requiring action and action being taken is unbelievably long. I shall not dwell on this. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle would probably rule me out of order.

Dr. O'Donovan

As I have reminded the Deputy before, there is no economic growth, of course, and there has not been for a long time.

Dr. FitzGerald

I am coming to the fact that at the end of all this the economic growth we experienced in the 1960s has, in fact, been grinding to a halt itself. In fact, there is already evidence that the whole process of government has got into such a mess that it has now certainly prejudiced short-term economic policy and I believe even the long-term possibilities of economic growth. The failure to grapple with the problem of inflation in recent years after the early warning of 1965 has now led to a position where the actual growth output in this year is estimated—the Government's own estimates would concur with this—as not exceeding 2 or 2½ per cent, no more than half the growth rate of last year.

This may well be a temporary phenomenon, as the Minister has said, but I think it may be more than that because the causes of this slow-down in growth are more fundamental. The inflation we are experiencing today is not something accidental, something cyclical, something like we had before. It is much more fundamental.

The economic situation we now face is one of grave danger for our immediate future and of considerable danger for our long-term future. The failure to get out of our present difficulties will undermine the possibility of growth. Economic growth is something which can be sustained only if we have the ability to produce competitively goods and services that we can sell to other countries and secure in return the wide range of imports we need to sustain our standard of life. Ireland is a small country: it is small geographically and in climatic range; small in the range of agricultural produce, and in the range of industrial goods, because of the size of the home market. More than any other European country, we depend on imports for a high proportion of what we need. To pay for these imports there is only one solution, namely, to sell an equivalent amount of goods and services abroad.

Our ability to sell our goods abroad depends on our competitiveness. More important still is our ability to maintain our rate of economic growth. The rate has been halved but it must be kept, at least, at its former level if we are to maintain our competitive position on the home market. I have been concerned in the last few years about the rapid decline in our competitiveness in this area. In the period 1967-1970 imports to the home market have risen from 15 to 20 per cent, an annual rate of increase about three times as rapid as in the early 'sixties.

This sharp deterioration in the ability of our industries to produce the goods and services we need for the home market reflects in part the failure in competitiveness due to an excessive increase in costs. If we concentrate too much on our exports we may fail to see the danger signals. At the moment our export position contains many inherently dynamic elements. There are many new industries and the exports from these new firms are giving to the total exports picture an appearance of dynamism which does not reflect the reality of the situation.

If one examines the list of exports in the current year and tries to identify the items that are contributing to the upsurge in exports it will be noted that only a small fraction of the total range of exports are contributing to this situation. I hesitate to put a figure on this fraction but it could be as low as 15 or 20 per cent and this fraction is contributing three—quarters to the increase in exports. This is because of the success to a significant point of the Government's drive to attract foreign industries but it is covering up the fact that the bulk of our exports have not succeeded in expanding at a significant rate.

If one looks beneath the surface it will be noted that most of our exports are expanding much slower than before and there is a rapid growth in the import content of home consumption. All the signs of a sudden, sharp and highly dangerous deterioration in our competitive position are there. This had occurred because of inflation to which the Government have contributed so far as their own efforts are concerned, and which they have permitted so far as other sections are concerned in the last few years.

This was avoidable. If the Government had been concerned about the interests of the country and had not been thinking in a short-sighted manner about how they could rig the electoral system and gerrymander the constituencies, they could have dealt with the situation. What has gone wrong in this country has been our own fault. While world conditions in general have fluctuated to a certain extent, and while there have been better years in the world economy, these factors do not account for our present difficulties. The extent to which the slowing-down of our growth rate can be attributed to events elsewhere is small and the extent to which the inflation existing in the country can be accounted for by inflation abroad is also small.

It is true that even had we controlled our own affairs perfectly, there would have been some element of inflation but it would have been very small; 75 per cent of our present inflation is a result of our own mishandling of our affairs. By "our own" I mean the entire community because one cannot place the entire blame on the Government. However, the Government are directly to blame for that part of inflation attributable to their policies and indirectly for that part attributable to the action of others in the community. Such people could have been influenced by a Government that was genuinely concerned with the economy and one that had the confidence of the people in carrying forward policies designed to keep inflation under control.

We have not had such a Government here for some years past. It is legitimate to make a contrast between the definitely superior economic performance of the present Government in their early years in office and the incredible deterioration in performance in recent years. I do not know any economist or economic observer, either inside or outside this country, who would not agree that our present economic situation could have been avoided and is due to mistakes made at home. Some of the commentators put this in muted form, not wishing to intrude into the political sphere in making judgments but, whether it is said openly or not, it is obvious that they are in agreement on this matter. Underlying everything that has been said by the Central Bank, the Economic and Social Research Institute, and by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research in London, is the opinion that our difficulties are self-induced and that but for the failure of the Government they could have been avoided.

I consider it appropriate to make this criticism in a debate such as this. It is a criticism of government at every level: of the Government's economic management which has been abysmal for the last number of years; a criticism of the political policies of the Government: a criticism of the way they have failed to organise the public administration; and of the way in which they have organised the time of Parliament. When historians look back on this period they will comment unfavourably on the complete failure of the country to grapple with its problems at this time. The lack of imagination and lack of political courage shown by the Government will not be to the credit of the Government or to the advantage of the country.

I realise this debate must conclude by 5 o'clock and that other speakers may wish to contribute and I do not wish to detain the House. I have spoken on this Bill because I deplore the situation that has made it necessary to introduce the Bill in such circumstances.

Mr. E. Collins

It is an appalling reflection on the Government that in the penultimate week of the present session practically 75 per cent of the Estimates which this House should discuss in full have had to be passed today en bloc.

The Appropriation Bill should have had a full discussion. It is my opinion that the Government have deliberately forced this situation on the Dáil to cover up for appalling administration. The Government are forcing this House to grant en bloc a figure of more than £462 million in the Appropriation Bill and there can be no excuse for this action. I came into the Dáil more than a year ago with a genuine intention to participate in debates on the Estimates and on the various Bills which I expected would come before the House. We have done very little work of any genuine benefit to the country in the last 18 months. We gave plenty of time to a Bill like that dealing with the horse industry, the importance of which to society I cannot see.

I am not saying it was not a good Bill but when one considers the appalling problems which face us—appalling social problems, appalling economic conditions—one cannot understand how the Government gave so much time to a Bill which was not relevant to our society. Perhaps one reason was that they did not wish the House to discuss more important matters.

The House has not considered many important matters during the past 18 months. Not many matters of an administrative nature were discussed. We discussed falling Cabinets, Ministers resigning and Ministers being sacked, but they are not really relevant to the problems which I came into the House to discuss. I would prefer to be discussing Estimates rather than being engaged in such odious debates, debates which caused a lot of people to say many things which they may regret in future years. Certainly the Cabinet now are not the Cabinet which were appointed 18 months ago—they are a shadow of its former selves. We have a very second-rate Cabinet and this is being reflected in the Bills coming before the House. One example of this is the Bill which admits that CIE have lost more than £5 million in 12 months.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is getting away from the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. E. Collins

I am giving an example of the state of affairs into which this House has been led by very bad and very incompetent Ministers.

Mr. Colley

For how long is the Deputy supposed to go?

Mr. E. Collins

I will go as long as I——

Mr. Colley

It is obvious the Deputy is filling up.

Mr. E. Collins

It is a poor reflection on you and your Government that you have not given this House——

Mr. Colley

It is obvious the Deputy is filling up.

Mr. E. Collins

I am not filling up anything. I will discuss your own Department under whose aegis this Bill comes. You are in charge of the country's economic affairs.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should address the Chair.

Mr. E. Collins

I am sorry, Sir. The very high expenditure which this Bill will sanction has in no small way caused the inflation which is at present raging within the country. Because of political circumstances the Government in the last few years have not faced up to their responsibilities to society. If they had done that the amount involved in this Bill would not be so large and the taxpayers would not have to dig so deeply into their pockets. There is no doubt that the Government have not used properly and at the right time the monetary and fiscal laws and policies which could have kept price increases at bay.

The Prices and Incomes Bill should never have been required. It is an appalling reflection on the Government to have had to bring it in. It is an appalling reflection on the Minister for Finance who should have kept the economy in check. The balance of payments has gone completely out of hand. It was more than £60 million last year and it will be the same this year. It may be said that the deficit in the balance of trade has been reduced but the fact is that the invisible items in the account will not measure to last year's figures because of the poor state of tourism.

We know why tourism has taken a knock in the last 12 months-because of the political events within the Cabinet. We have had a Central Bank Bill on the Order Paper for more than 12 months, a very important Bill which should have come before the House, but of course the Cabinet had not time to discuss it or would not allow the Opposition time to debate such an important matter. The whole economy must be discussed before we enter the European Economic Community. The report of the committee on the functions, operations and development of a money market in Ireland is of interest. The Exchange Control Bill will have to be re-examined in the light of our application to join the Common Market. The whole question of centralising foreign reserves is of tremendous importance. Yet those matters, although they are specialised matters, have not been brought before this House. Those are matters which should have been discussed and not no confidence motions or motions dealing with resignations or all those unfortunate motions which have come before the House.

Mr. Colley

Who in the name of goodness brought forward the no confidence motions?

Mr. E. Collins

We brought forward the no confidence motions.

Mr. Colley

Yes, and the Deputy says they should not have been discussed. Will the Deputy have a bit of sense?

Mr. E. Collins

I will have a bit of sense. The reason they were brought forward was because of the miserable Government of which you are a member. They should never have been needed.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. E. Collins

If your Government had any respect for this Parliament——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Let us get back to the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. E. Collins

I came into this Parliament to discuss problems of society and I was faced with a Government who are of no standing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will now come to the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. E. Collins

I am trying to, but this man is preventing me——

Mr. Colley

The Deputy is insulting the intelligence of everyone who is listening to him.

Mr. E. Collins

I do not have to insult anyone listening to me. I will discuss the Fianna Fáil Government. The Fianna Fáil Government have been a disgrace to Ireland and they will rank in history as one of the worst administrations in any democracy in western Europe.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will discuss the Appropriation Bill now.

Mr. E. Collins

We are the laughing stock of Europe. It is a terrible reflection on us. I should like to quote from the Sunday Telegraph of the 6th December, 1970. Its editorial is headed " Deadly Earnest" and it states :

The threshold of violence is notoriously low in Ireland. Private armies abound with a freedom to operate that would be inconceivable in countries with a less notorious history of bloodshed.

This is the type of editorial the Fianna Fáil Government have caused to be produced in west European papers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must come to the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. Sherwin

He cannot.

Mr. E. Collins

I could discuss the Bill all day and all night. You can go back to the brandy-drinking workers in your constituency.

Mr. Sherwin

Do not be insulting the people of Ballyfermot.

Mr. E. Collins

It is you who is insulting them, not I.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Personalities are not in order in the House.

Mr. E. Collins

It is a disgraceful reflection on the Taoiseach that he would not allow a debate on taking away the——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must come to the Appropriation Bill and deal with it.

Mr. E. Collins

The amount involved in this Bill represents a very heavy burden on the people. It is unnecessarily large mainly because of the wastefulness of the Government. Instead of providing a proper atmosphere in which industry could flourish and in which the trade of the country could be conducted all through the sixties, the financial machinery of the country has been used for no purpose other than to win by-elections. The taxpayers' money has been used by various Ministers to put a few shillings extra into the pockets of people who happen to live in a constituency where an election was about to take place. This is the type of government I detest. There was no genuine effort to improve the atmosphere for industrial expansion. The many poor people of Donegal are being forced to live on the dole. That is a very poor substitute for a living. In effect, Fianna Fáil are making beggars out of the poor people of this country. This is a dreadful reflection on the Government. They have failed to provide proper employment for the people.

Mr. Sherwin

The Deputy has called the people of Donegal beggars.

Mr. E. Collins

I said that the Government had forced the people into being beggars by giving them the dole.

Mr. Sherwin

That is an insult to the people of Donegal.

Mr. E. Collins

It is Fianna Fáil who are insulting the people of Donegal by not making it possible for them to earn a livelihood.

Mr. S. Browne

Is that why they voted for us?

Mr. E. Collins

The Minister for Labour told the people of Donegal that they knew on which side their bread was buttered. The threat meted out to the people of Donegal was that if Fianna Fáil were to go out of office they would lose their benefits. This was the dirty type of politics by which Fianna Fáil won the by-election.

Mr. Colley

Is the Deputy maintaining that if the people had not known on which side their bread was buttered they would have voted for Fine Gael?

Mr. E. Collins

What I maintain is that Fianna Fáil threatened the people of that constituency. I understand this debate must conclude by 5 o'clock. Before I sit down, I must say it is a sad reflection on democracy when this Chamber should be forced into such an agreement as this when the present level of Government expenditure is so high. It is beyond the capacity of the people to pay. There is no necessity why it should be as high as it is. The wastefulness of some of the expenditure, the lack of policy and the miserable management of State industries in some cases are merely a reflection on the second-rate Cabinet which now exist. It will be a better day for Ireland when Fianna Fáil leave office and get rid of Jack, or of the dissidents or whatever it is they wish to do, so that the damage can be repaired by another Government.

Mr. Colley

I thank the Opposition Parties for their co-operation in agreeing to have the Appropriation Bill taken and passed today. I am afraid these are the only pleasant or even courteous words I have to say in relation to the Opposition.

Dr. O'Donovan

That is all right.

Mr. Colley

It is well known to most Deputies that the procedure we are following here today in regard to this Bill and the taking of a number of Estimates without discussion is a procedure that has been adhered to on many occasions in the past. There is nothing special about it this year except, perhaps, that the number of Estimates involved may be more than were involved in the past.

Dr. O'Donovan

And the extent of them.

Mr. Colley

I will come to that because there has been a lot of discussion as to why they should have been so. In so far as the Appropriation Bill is concerned, the tradition in the House has been that the Bill itself is not a matter for discussion. However, a great deal of time was spent and a great number of comments were made——

Mr. Tully

The Minister has said the Bill is not a matter for discussion, but let me say there is nothing wrong in discussing it.

Mr. Colley

No, but I am merely trying to put it in perspective in relation to the discussion we have had here. A great deal of time was spent and a lot has been said, particularly from the Fine Gael benches, which, to my mind, can be labelled only as sheer hypocrisy. We have heard the most lurid attacks on the Government. We have been told of the amount of time that has been taken away and we have heard about the small amount of business that has been completed. We had Deputy FitzGerald documenting the number of Bills that have been passed in previous sessions as against this session and telling us various reasons which were not the cause of slowing down the work. However, he did not tell us what was the cause of the slowing down nor did he give us any documentation as to what actually happened in this year. I have no reason to doubt the Deputy's figures, but I suggest that any objective examination of the records of this House in this year will show that the reason we have dealt with so few Estimates and enacted so little legislation compared with previous years is due to——

Mr. L'Estrange

The incompetence of the Government.

Mr. Colley

——the amount of time that was spent by the Opposition in discussing matters other than business and other than legislation.

Mr. L'Estrange

Who raised the matter?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

An tAire.

Mr. Colley

This, Sir, is a very good example of the kind of thing to which this House was subjected. In the light of what was being said about time-wasting procedure and ineffectiveness in the House I recall the debate that went on all one night this year.

Mr. R. Burke

On a point of order, the question of that debate does not arise on the Bill.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Colley

On the occasion of that debate we saw Deputies speaking from the Fine Gael benches whom I had never heard speak here before during my time in the House.

Mr. L'Estrange

Who put down the motion?

Mr. Colley

We saw them passing back to each other dog-eared notes. We saw how they were filibustering.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): We had the debate after two Ministers had been sacked.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Collins must resume his seat. An tAire.

Mr. Colley

I suggest that for them to come here today and complain about the lack of progress is sheer hypocrisy and will not be tolerated by the Irish people.

Mr. L'Estrange

Fianna Fáil Ministers tried to turn this country into a banana republic.

Mr. Tully

I would remind the Minister that the debate to which he is referring was carried on on a Friday night and during the day on the Saturday, during which time the House would not otherwise have been sitting in any case.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Colley

I took that as one example of the performance in this House over the years. I said there had been other examples in this House in this year of filibustering and Deputy Tully knows what I am talking about.

Dr. O'Donovan

You may bet he does.

Mr. Colley

I want to say that this is a legitimate tactic.

Mr. Tully

Sir——

Mr. Colley

Is this a point of order?

Mr. Tally

It is. Since the Minister has, in fact, made a reference and said that I know what he is talking about, all I want to say is that any motion debated in this House was put down by the Taoiseach.

Mr. L'Estrange

Who sacked the Ministers.

Mr. Colley

I am saying that filibustering is a perfectly legitimate parliamentary tactic. If Deputies want to engage in filibustering that is perfectly all right, but do not let them come in here then and try to blame us by talking about the slowness of business. Who held up the business of Dáil Eireann in this session?

Deputies

Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Colley

The Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, and the public know it. Both the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party have consistently held up the business of this House in this session. We know, and Deputies have referred to it on the other side of the House, that there are numerous important items of legislation which should be brought before the House and should be enacted in the interests of the people, legislation which the Government are ready, and willing and able——

Mr. L'Estrange

Ready and willing and tottering.

Mr. Colley

——to enact. The reason why these legislative measures have not been reached is because of the tactics of the Opposition parties wasting the time of this House.

Mr. Desmond

May I, on a point of order, suggest——

Deputies

That the Minister withdraw the Bill.

Mr. Desmond

On a point of order. I wish to request the Chair to direct the House to the fact that the Minister should be given the remaining minutes so that we do not waste the time of the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Desmond

Hurry up, George, or you will not withdraw the Bill in time.

Mr. Colley

I have no intention of withdrawing the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. Tully

The Prices and Incomes Bill.

Mr. Desmond

The cameras are waiting upstairs.

Mr. Colley

I have no intention of withdrawing the Bill.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): On a point of order. I agree with Deputy Desmond that the Minister should be given the time because then he will look happy before the country.

Mr. Colley

As I say, we have had to listen to filibustering from the Fine Gael benches and I have tried to place that in the perspective of the Fine Gael Party's performance during the year. Deputy Tully referred to something that occurred in the year 1965, to the change that was made then. He was quite correct in what he said.

Mr. Tully

I usually am.

Mr. Colley

That change did more to streamline administrative procedure rather helping in the procedure of this House. I am sure Deputy Tully has noticed that the effect of it in recent years is being lost.

Mr. Tully

That is what I said.

Mr. Colley

We are building up again to the same situation even though we have extended from the Summer Recess to the Christmas Recess.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Unprecedented happenings.

Mr. Colley

The most important reason for this is not realised by many people when they propose changes in procedure, changes which look perfect on paper. There is some kind of unwritten rule which seems to say that, whatever amount of time you have in the House, it will be taken up. If I might give an instance of how this kind of thing operates : the availability of more time does not necessarily mean you get more business done.

Mr. L'Estrange

Not in a year like this one has been.

Mr. Colley

Too many Deputies apparently do not understand that the Standing Orders of this House represent the consensus of decisions as to how we should conduct our own business. In the abstract they realise it and subscribe to it but, in actual practice, when they find it does not suit their purpose, they try to ignore it. We have had an example of that in this debate.

We had Deputy Oliver Flanagan told by the Ceann Comhairle at the beginning of his speech that he was not in order, but he persisted despite the best efforts of the Ceann Comhairle, and his whole speech was out of order.

Dr. O'Donovan

He was not so far out of order. It is in the Bill.

Mr. L'Estrange

The £600 for the cards is in this.

Dr. O'Donovan

He was not so far out of order at all.

Mr. Colley

Deputies, when they find the rules do not suit them, even though the rules were enacted by ourselves, do not abide by them and that is the trouble about any procedure to speed up this mess and make it more efficient.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Have fewer arms trials.

Mr. Colley

There is a beautiful scheme on paper but there is no allowance for the fact that human nature plays a part.

Dr. O'Donovan

We are not rubber stamps.

Mr. Tully

We proposed a five day week, Monday to Friday, and all the time the Minister wants for Bills and for discussing motions.

Mr. Colley

I would ask the Deputy to have a look, in all honesty, at the performance of members of his own party.

Mr. L'Estrange

And the Government's performance.

Mr. Colley

I am not saying this in any acrimonious spirit. I am asking the Deputy to have a look at the performance of his own party in relation to the Rules of the House, rules to which they subscribe, and bear that performance in mind when he asks that we should lay down a new procedure. Does the Deputy really think, when people inevitably ignore procedure when it suits them, that any new procedure would be any more successful?

Mr. Tully

Is it not true that the Minister's party have been debating the Transport Bill and putting in speaker after speaker? That is politics. Do not lay the blame at our door. The Minister's party do it as well as we do it.

Mr. Colley

I am not saying there was a filibuster on the Transport Bill. I said earlier that filibustering is a legitimate parliamentary tactic. I am not contesting that. But Deputies should not come in here and complain that the Government are holding up the business of the House. I do not think there is any necessity for me to say any more on this Bill.

Mr. R. Burke

I should like to make a brief comment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It can only be by way of question.

Mr. R. Burke

I do not often speak, but I should like to convey to the Minister that any further contributions from ministerial benches in the tone of the one which has just been delivered will make it very difficult for me to co-operate with the Government.

Mr. Colley

Did the Deputy listen to the contributions from the Opposition side of the House? Was the Deputy here listening to Deputy Collins, for instance? Did the Deputy hear Deputy L'Estrange?

Mr. L'Estrange

Everything Deputy L'Estrange says has been proved true over the last few years.

Mr. R. Burke

I am now issuing a warning.

Mr. Colley

Let the Deputy issue no warnings to me because I am not accepting any warnings from Deputy Burke or any other Deputy in this House.

Mr. L'Estrange

What about Deputy Haughey's warning to the Minister? The Minister changed his tactics very quickly when Deputy Haughey warned him about the 12th round.

Mr. R. Burke

I have treated the Minister very fairly and the Minister's own party Whip will agree with me in that. I did not like the tone of the Minister's remarks.

Mr. Cluskey

Has there been any change on the Prices and Incomes Bill?

Mr. Colley

I told Deputy Tully earlier.

Mr. Cluskey

Can the Minister tell the House?

Mr. Colley

I told Deputy Tully earlier that I understand there is to be a meeting of the Whips at which this will be discussed.

Mr. Tully

That is not so.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach (Mr. Andrews)

I think it is fair to say I was awaiting an answer.

Mr. Cluskey

I am not blaming the Whip in any way, but I am anxious about the situation. I do not want a situation in which the House will once again be ignored and there will be an announcement on television or at some cumann meeting. The Minister now has an opportunity of informing the House if he so desires.

Mr. E. Collins

This Dáil is being ignored.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This Bill is certified as a Money Bill in accordance with Article 22 of the Constitution.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 15th December. 1970.