Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Jan 1971

Vol. 251 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 43: Defence.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1971, for salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Defence, including certain services administered by that Office; for the pay and expenses of the Defence Forces and for payment of a grant-in-aid.

The main Estimate for Defence for the year ending 31st March, 1971, which was passed by the Dáil on the 11th December, 1970, was for a net sum of £14,308,000. By way of comparison, the original net Estimate for the financial year 1969-70 was £12,852,000 but, by reason of supplementary estimates and a transfer from the Vote for Remuneration, this was increased to a total of £14,709,010. In the same way it is now necessary for me to present a substantial supplementary estimate additional to the token one of £10 which I have just moved. It is being circulated to Deputies today and is for a net sum of £4,480,000. It is necessitated by pay increases and other factors to which I shall be referring in my statement.

As Deputies are aware, the demands on the permanent Defence Force have been exceptionally heavy for the past year or more. In addition to its ordinary duties and its contribution to the United Nations peace-keeping commitments, there has been the additional dimension of duties in aid of the civil power arising from events in the Six Counties. In this, the permanent Defence Force has had the assistance of the First Line Reserve, some members of which remain called out on full-time service. It has had equally valuable assistance from An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil, whose members have responded in an admirable way to the demands made on them for week-end and other forms of part-time service and have thus made a most important contribution to our overall defence requirements during a particularly difficult period. To all components of the Defence Forces, therefore, as well as to the military heads, I pay tribute for the excellence of their service and their devotion to duty during a period of great strain. I include in this tribute that excellent group, An Slua Muirí, the members of which, in common with all those members of An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil who were not called on for special duties, earnestly carried on their ordinary training activities.

At present an infantry group of approximately 430 officers and men are serving in Cyprus as a contingent of the United Nations peace-keeping force on that island. When they complete their term of duty, a total of about 8,100 all ranks will have served there. I visited the Irish troops serving in Cyprus last October. I met every officer and man, inspected their accommodation and saw for myself the conditions under which they operate. I was greatly impressed by their bearing, discipline and devotion to duty. As well as being peace-keepers, they are fine ambassadors for our country. Representatives of the Cypriot people, both Greek and Turkish, were unanimous in their praise of the Irish troops whose integrity and ability to cope with delicate situations has impressed all who came into contact with them. Everywhere I went there was evidence of the high esteem in which our troops are held.

Peace-keeping work calls for watchfulness, patience and tact to an exceptional degree. The observer posts, which have to be manned for 24 hours a day, are often located in isolated places which can be reached only with difficulty. In general, the troops have better accommodation since they were moved early last year to their present location from the north of the island. For one thing, canvas is used to much lesser extent. In the course of my discussions with the force commander following my tour of inspection, I found him very sympathetic towards certain improvements I suggested. It must be borne in mind, however, that the United Nations mandate in Cyprus has never been for longer than six months at a time and, of course, the aim is to arrive as soon as possible at a situation where it can be terminated altogether. In these circumstances and having regard to the financial limitations within which the organisation has to operate, I am satisfied that every effort is being, and will be, made by the UN authorities to provide an acceptable standard of accommodation. I did not have an opportunity of seeing much of the accommodation occupied by other contingents but my inquiries lead me to believe that the Irish accommodation compares favourably with the rest.

I should not omit an appreciative reference to the smaller and less publicised group of 21 officers serving with the United Nations Truce Supervision Organisation in the Middle East. Thirteen are in the Suez Canal section, and the remainder are deployed in Damascus, Tiberias and Jerusalem. Deputies will be aware of the very tense situation in this region. This is still another valuable peace-keeping contribution by our Defence Forces.

We can all take pride in the fact that this country is playing its part in the maintenance of peace in Cyprus and in the Middle East and that our Army is serving us very well indeed in these undertakings.

As regards the recovery of extra and extraordinary expenses arising from the Cyprus operation, I realise that some Deputies feel a degree of anxiety about the recovery prospects. Actually, on our experience, I am prepared to believe—or at least to feel some confidence—that this position will adjust itself. In round figures, we have made claims amounting to £2,724,000, and, of this, £2,162,000 has been paid, leaving a balance outstanding of £562,000. This consists of claims made since August, 1969, the latest being one made this month. The question of the repayment of the outstanding amount is being pressed vigorously with the United Nations, which has its own financial difficulties with regard to peace-keeping missions due to the unwillingness of certain member countries to make the necessary funds available. As I say, I have hope that the position will adjust itself, as it has done in the past despite similar difficulties.

I have spoken of the heavy demands made on all components of the Defence Forces in recent times. It is, therefore, pleasant to be able to say that, in the present financial year, Army pay has been increased three times. The first of these increases arose from the deliberations of a working party from the Departments of Finance and Defence; it was back-dated to the 1st June, 1969. The others were the two phases of the twelfth round, effective as from the 1st April, 1970, and the 1st January, 1971. The extent of these increases is shown by the provision in the Supplementary Estimate. These adjustments provide appreciable increases for all ranks and make Army service a very attractive career for interested young people.

In addition to the actual pay increases, some fringe benefits recommended by the working party have also been implemented. The most notable of these, for officers, are the provision of annual instead of biennial increments and the introduction of a scheme giving enhanced starting pay on promotion to certain ranks. In the case of men, ration allowance has been increased and married men no longer suffer a reduction in their remuneration in respect of rations officially provided while on temporary duty away from home. Children's allowances for men have been extended to cover dependent children up to the age of 21 years who are at school or college or who are invalids.

Also introduced was a scheme of removal expenses for married officers and men on permanent transfer from one station to another. When dealing with the Estimate for Army Pensions, I shall be speaking of substantial improvements also in that field. I think it well to point out that these pay and pension improvements had not evolved at the time the main estimates were prepared, and, were not, therefore, included in them.

To bring the position of married soldiers into line with that of employees generally in the public sector married rates of pay have been introduced. This means that the married soldier now personally receives his entire remuneration but it is permissible in certain circumstances, e.g., during overseas service, for men to make voluntary allotments.

Whatever the demands otherwise, ordinary Army life must go on, and it may interest Deputies to know of developments in matters which have been mentioned on previous occasions.

Thirty-one non-commissioned officers successfully completed a potential officers' course of approximately ten months duration and were commissioned on 7th December, 1970. It is hoped, by having schemes of this kind periodically, to afford an opportunity to suitable non-commissioned officers, who make soldiering their career, to attain commissioned rank in the permanent Defence Force.

In pursuance of the decision to have the training of cadets associated with university studies, 14 cadets appointed in 1968 completed their first year at University College, Galway, and all passed their first year university examinations. The faculty courses which they are pursuing are arts seven; science four; commerce two and engineering one. These are now commissioned officers. A further 15 cadets of the 1969 class commenced their first year at university in October, 1970. Their courses are arts four; commerce four and science seven. These 29 undergraduates are accommodated in Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa, Galway.

I should also like to refer to the educational training of non-commissioned officers and privates. In September, 1969, a scheme was introduced under which men of the permanent Defence Force are given an opportunity of attending courses of one year's duration at vocational schools with a view to their obtaining the day group certificate. The purpose of the scheme is to raise the educational standard of the men which would, in turn, assist in their resettlement in civilian life. Attendance at the courses is on a voluntary basis and the cost is borne by my Department. A total of 152 men commenced classes at eight different centres in 1969. Of these, 109 completed the course and 63 were successful in obtaining the day group certificate. A total of 116 men commenced the course this year at seven different centres. In addition, special arrangements were made for 36 men to commence a two-year evening course leading to the leaving certificate, the fees being paid by my Department.

Arrangements were made in 1969 for the attendance of a number of Army personnel, aged between 44 and 52, at courses of training in such skills as turning, grinding, milling and welding at the Galway Industrial Training Centre which is under the control of AnCO. The purpose of this scheme is to assist in the resettlement of men in civilian life. Four men completed a full-time course in welding at the Galway centre in July last. Three others have since commenced courses of training in lathe operating and mechanical assembling and welding at the same centre. Arrangements have also been made for the attendance of Army personned at training courses at the AnCO Training Centre at Shannon.

These are very gratifying developments and I think that I might link with them the training of apprentices at the Army Apprentice School, Naas, and at the Air Corps Apprentice School, Baldonnel. At Naas, basic training is provided in such trades as carpenter and joiner, fitter, armourer and electrician while, at Baldonnel, apprentices are trained as aircraft mechanics. There is close liaison with AnCO in the running of both schools. The usual annual competitions for entry to the schools were held in 1970 and a total of 64 new apprentices was recruited.

Deputies will appreciate the benefits of all these projects. They are of benefit to the Army itself; they fit men for entry to civilian life when their Army service has ended and they add to the national pool of skills and are a help to industry. It would be my hope that all these schemes can be developed further.

I should like to pay a tribute to the Air Corps helicopter service which, by now, has become well established and has evolved a tradition of its own. The primary purpose of the service is to carry out air/sea rescue work and to render assistance as necessary in other emergencies. This primary function must take precedence at all times over any other use.

During 1970, helicopters carried out 33 rescue missions of various kinds. In addition, during the same period they carried out 52 ambulance missions which involved mostly the conveyance of seriously ill or injured patients from provincial hospitals to Dublin hospitals for special treatment. I am pleased to be able to say that in no case was it necessary to refuse a request for helicopter assistance for rescue or ambulance work.

The question of vessels for the Naval Service has evoked considerable interest for some time. Now that the stage has been reached where two of the corvettes have been sold and the third is due to be taken out of service shortly it would be appropriate to refer to the very effective role played by these vessels since they were purchased in 1946-47. Although they had their drawbacks — as might be expected in vessels built to meet special combat requirements — they proved to have good sea-keeping qualities, capable of withstanding Atlantic weather, and they carried out efficiently their fishery protection duties.

As Deputies are aware, a new all-weather fishery protection vessel is on order from Verolme Cork dockyard and is due for delivery at the end of March, 1972. This specially designed vessel will be up to modern merchant shipping standards of accommodation and fittings and should be most effective in the specialised fishery protection role proposed for it.

For a long time past inquiries have been in progress in regard to the availability of other suitable vessels. As I announced some time ago, agreement was concluded with the British Ministry of Defence for the purchase of three vessels of the coastal minesweeper class. I expect that the first of these vessels will be in service here by mid-February and the other two about mid-March. They are in first-class condition, little used and well maintained. The names chosen for them are Gráinne, Banba and Fóla. I understand that coastal minesweepers have been found effective elsewhere on fishery protection duties in addition to their naval role.

The total cost of the ships with stores and equipment is expected to be of the order of £640,000 and provision for the payment of £590,000 of this sum is made in the Supplementary Estimate. The balance is expected to be paid in the financial year 1971-72.

It has been decided to introduce a new type cloth for uniforms for both the Army and the FCA as soon as stocks of the existing cloth, which are considerable, are used up. The cloth will be made in this country. It will be lighter in weight and have a much improved appearance. It will take about a year and a half before uniforms in the new material become available. Combat uniforms have also been approved. This uniform consists of an outer waterproof tunic and trousers and a number of accessories and linings which can be varied to suit conditions. The accessories and linings are being obtained in this country, but so far it has not been possible to obtain suitable material here for the outer tunic and trousers, and for the first issues it was necessary to obtain supplies abroad. A contract has now been arranged to have them made in this country and it is hoped that all future requirements will be obtained here. Every effort is being made to have suitable material made in this country. The combat uniforms are for field training, patrols and operational duties.

The improvement of accommodation in barracks is given high priority within the limits of the money available. For instance, there is a continuing programme for the conversion of large billets into individual cubicles. While married soldiers are entitled, like other members of the community in the same income group, to local authority houses, my Department have been supplementing local authorities' efforts where the need is greatest. The Department have built 176 houses since 1955 and have improved a large number of existing married quarters.

New structures for the accommodation of company headquarters of An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil are planned for various areas in which the existing premises are not suitable. One such building was opened recently at Killorglin, County Kerry, and another is almost ready for occupation at Wicklow. A site for construction of yet another company headquarters at Navan has been secured and it is hoped, within our available resources, to continue to provide such new accommodation where it is considered to be necessary.

The possibility of disposing of lands surplus to military requirements has for some time been under examination in my Department. It has been found possible in recent months to sell 40 acres of land at Tallaght, County Dublin as well as an area of 79 acres at Fort Davis, Whitegate, County Cork. The land at Tallaght has been sold to Dublin Corporation on agreed terms. The land at Fort Davis is being sold to a private purchaser following competitive tendering.

Coming to civil defence, the Estimate for this service follows the same broad pattern as last year. Again, Deputies will be interested in a general picture of the present position of Civil Defence.

Some 8,300 Civil Defence volunteers underwent training at 400 training centres in the financial year 1969-70; more than 4,000 attended 15 week-end camps and 8,000 participated in 91 field days and exercises. Thirteen local week-end courses, at which a total of 550 volunteers attended, were also held. Special courses at the Civil Defence School were attended by 414 persons.

I should like to mention in regard to the manpower of the organisation generally that it is not expected that volunteers who have completed training in their chosen service should continue attendance at local training one year after another but they are welcome to do so.

A special check was made in 1969 of the effective strength of Civil Defence volunteer personnel throughout the country. Of more than 26,000 trained volunteers who were asked in writing if they intended to continue membership of the Civil Defence Organisation, and to report for duty if required in an emergency, some 14,500 replied in the affirmative. This outcome is regarded as very satisfactory. It should, of course, also be borne in mind that those who have fallen away are not a complete loss. They have received training in civil defence and, in an emergency, even if they did not volunteer to help on an organised basis, the knowledge which they have acquired could not but be of appreciable benefit to themselves, their families and their neighbours.

Progress continued to be made in the establishment of protected county control centres from which civil defence operations would be directed and co-ordinated in an emergency. Sixteen of these have been completed or almost completed. Of the completed controls one is the regional control for the Counties of Dublin, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow which also incorporates the control for Dublin city and county. The location of two other regional controls has been approved and work on them has been authorised.

As Deputies are aware, a Civil Defence handbook was issued to every householder in 1965. This handbook gives guidance as to how individual homes can be prepared to mitigate the effects of radioactive fallout should it ever affect our country. A further distribution was made in 1968 by local authorities to houses built since 1965. Arrangements will be made for a further issue to houses built subsequently. I should like to stress the importance of this handbook. Copies of a short 16 mm film based on ideas drawn from the handbook have been distributed to each local authority. The film is being shown in local halls to the public. It can also be shown to groups who would have an opportunity of discussing its implications with local civil defence personnel and thereby obtain an awareness of the importance of civil defence generally.

I should like to refer at this stage to the benefit derived by the country from civil defence having regard to the amount of money being spent on it. The position is that civil defence, being part of the general defence structure, is a form of national insurance. Since 1951 the total expenditure by the State and the local authorities on the organisation has been £2,800,000 approximately, which represents an average annual cost of about one shilling per head of the population. That, in my opinion, is cheap insurance. The expenditure covered the cost of recruiting, training, clothing, maintaining and equipping all volunteers who joined the organisation. A substantial part of it was spent on equipment, uniforms and accommodation the bulk of which is intact and expected to remain serviceable for several years to come. In return for this relatively modest expenditure the country has been provided with a civil defence organisation capable of rendering vital assistance in war-time. The organisation has rendered valuable assistance in peacetime also in humanitarian work of various kinds.

I should like to thank all those members of civil defence throughout the country who give this most praiseworthy voluntary service to their local authorities and to the State. I am always gratified when I hear of the attendance of Civil Defence personnel at local emergencies, bringing succour to those affected by any of the natural calamities that occur in peace time, and I have no doubt that this is fully appreciated by those who have been so helped. I would also like to thank those members of the Oireachtas and of local authorities who continue to give encouragement to the members of Civil Defence at local authority meetings and at Civil Defence functions.

The Irish Red Cross Society continues its excellent work. At home, its activities include courses in first aid, home nursing, water safety and life saving; training of young people in the service of others through the junior Red Cross; care of the aged through home visitation; the organisation of outings, clubs and home helps.

The society's greatest single activity in Ireland during recent times, however, has been relief work among refugees from the Six Counties. The society has provided volunteers from among its members to work in the Army refugee centres. There are about 40 refugees at present accommodated and fed by the Army at Kilworth Camp. Among the activities organised by these Red Cross members are care of the old people and children, a meals-on-wheels service for refugees confined to bed, a play centre for the young children and a distribution store where clothing and all other essential goods are available. When necessary Red Cross volunteers also accompany refugee patients to and from hospital.

I wish to thank the society and all those who have supported the relief operations and assisted in easing the hardship which the disturbances caused to so many people.

The main Estimate for Army Pensions, also passed by the Dáil on the 11th December last, was for a sum of £3,557,400, as compared with £3,351,870 for the financial year 1969-70 after the addition of supplementary estimates and transfers from the Votes for increases of remuneration and pensions. Recent improvements in benefits now necessitate a supplementary estimate, which is also being circulated to Deputies, for a sum of £268,000, and there will also be a transfer of £288,490 from the Vote for Increases in Pensions in respect of the increases for which the 1970 Budget provided.

Non-pay-related pensions and allowances were increased by 14½ per cent and pay-related pensions were brought up to the 1st June, 1968, level by last year's Budget. These very sizeable increases have benefited all classes of pensioners, including military service pensioners and special allowance holders. In addition, members of the Defence Forces retired or discharged since the 1st June, 1969, benefit considerably under the amending pensions scheme approved by the Dáil and Seanad just before Christmas. As Deputies will recall, the benefits include increased gratuities for officers, gratuities for long-service married soldiers in addition to pension and increases in the incremental element of soldiers' pensions.

If there is any additional information which Deputies desire, I shall endeavour to supply it when concluding.

The Minister began his statement very appropriately with a well-deserved tribute to the men who serve in the armed forces whether at home or on peace-keeping duties abroad. He explained that this tribute was especially due because of the great strain and the very heavy demands that have been made in recent times on members of the Army. Undoubtedly times have been exceptional. On top of that, numbers in the Army are very low, and I am surprised that the Minister did not refer to this at some point in his statement.

It would be interesting to know what is the present strength of the Army, whether normal recruiting is going on continuously and whether the strength of the Army will be increased to anything like the establishment size or whether it is intended to keep it at its present level, which is, in my view, dangerously low. This strain to which the Minister has referred and which I agree exists is due, to a considerable extent, to the understrength of the Army which has had the effect of increasing enormously the work load on the people who remain in the Army and on the very much smaller team that is there to do the work. I am sure all of us in this House would like to join with the Minister in paying tribute to the men who have done a first-class job both here at home and in Cyprus and elsewhere.

The Minister also complimented the people in Civil Defence and in the Red Cross for the contribution they are making. Again we on all sides of the House would like to be associated with those tributes. We appreciate they are people who are giving of their own valuable spare time to this sort of public work and civic duty and an expression of appreciation is due from all of us for this.

It is only right and proper that we on this side of the House should acknowledge that during the short period in which the Minister has held office considerable improvements have been made. I should like to give him credit for that, and I hope that the improvements continue at the same rate as they have taken place since he assumed office. Many of the improvements for which Deputies on this side of the House and, indeed, Deputies on his own side of the House, have been agitating for years are being brought about. One of the first appeals I made since I took over this responsibility in the Front Bench was that the Army should become one large vocational school where people would have opportunities for improving their education and improving their ability with a view to securing jobs when they left the Army. These opportunities are now obviously being made available. Both vocational training and even university opportunities are available. They may be for a limited number but it is certainly significant that this is the thinking now in the Army. These opportunities should have the effect of making the Army a more attractive career for many more of our young people. It is long overdue but very welcome at the same time.

I also welcome the improvements that have been made in the salaries and conditions of Army personnel. In many cases they are still held to be inadequate. It is not easy for a person as remote from the Army as I am certainly to be able to go into this in detail and criticise the pay and allowances of individual grades as perhaps they should be criticised. The very fact that we have little or no communication with the Army makes it extremely difficult. There is also the fact that there is no tribunal to which people in the Army can appeal and no organisation to which they can make their case, and the fact that they are not allowed to make representations to public representatives or anybody else directly. The Minister should perhaps give some consideration to this. None of us would like to set up a grouse machine as such, but I am sure that other Deputies receive, as I do, a large amount of anonymous mail emanating from the Army, and some of this is very genuine. A short time ago I had the amusing experience of getting a long letter with complaints of one kind or another. There was no name signed to it but the correspondent said: "Please keep this confidential". How I was to publicise it and associate him with it without his name on it I do not know. There is no source from which we in this House can get the information we require in order to be in a position fairly and factually to criticise or discuss the position and the problems in the Army.

I mentioned last year that I would seek an opportunity to visit various Army establishments. I regret to say that it took me about four months of communication with the Minister and his Department before I got agreement to visit one of these places. Eventually I got this agreement and I must say I was extremely impressed, when I did visit one of these Army establishments, by the co-operation that I got from the people I met there. I was very pleased to see that there was nothing hidden and no anxiety to hide anything. That is as it should be. If there is one area in the country where there should be no party politics it is the Army.

On the one visit I have paid up to the present — I hope to pay more and that there will not be obstacles put in my way the next time and that there will be a general agreement that this is something that is right to do and that all of us should have an opportunity of doing it — my only regret was that it was not an all-party group that was visiting the Army establishment. We could all learn from this. All of us have a responsibility for the security of the State and a responsibility to ensure that everything possible is done to improve conditions in the Army. It is not a case of going there just to criticise the Government. We have had 50 years of neglect in the Army, 50 years of no policy in the Army and 50 years of political apathy in relation to the Army. We have got a certain amount of publicity during the year for the Army. There is more interest in it now and we had reason to see the need for the Army mainly in its support for the civil authority to ensure that the democratic institutions of the State would be maintained and preserved.

Certain observations that I made last year when speaking on this Estimate were misrepresented. I would not say that they were deliberately misrepresented, to some extent they were misunderstood, but certainly they were misrepresented by Deputies in the House, again I think not deliberately, trying to get a crack at me although Deputy Joe Dowling likes an occasion of this kind and enjoys having a "go" but even Deputy Tully had a "go" at me last year and more or less put words into my mouth which I did not use. This is most unlike Deputy Tully. I was making the case that if we are spending a sizeable amount of money on the Army the people should know why we are spending it and that there should be more mixing of the Army and the civil population, that the Army should be more closely identified and associated with the social and economic development of the country and that in this way we would get a greater appreciation from the people who provide the money of the need for an Army and of the value we are getting for the money expended. In my anxiety to bring this about I mentioned a few of the activities that the Army in peacetime perhaps might become involved in. I am sorry to say that this was a little bit misrepresented by Deputy Tully, followed by Deputy Dowling who both have experience in the Army that I cannot claim. I wore a uniform as a student. I was a Reserve cadet for some time, that is not yesterday, but I know what life in the Army is like. What I am trying to do all the time is improve standards.

At column 719 of the Official Report of Thursday, 19th March, 1970, I said:

It could be involved in the provision of community halls and meeting rooms, the construction and improvement of sports grounds, the provision of instructors—gymnasium instructors and various other instructors in this field. I could go on giving a long list of projects in which the Army could be involved but I will just refer to this booklet Military Aid to the Civil Community in the United Kingdom. Just a few of the things they propose is the restoration of disused and derelict canals. There is a wonderful job the Army could be doing here in the development and cleaning up of canals as waterways and as recreation for our people; the improvement of landscapes, nature conservation, coastal protection, restoration of derelict industrial sites.

At no place in my suggestions did I suggest that they should be put in to dig ditches. This was the expression Deputy Tully used. I know he wanted to emphasise that it would not help Army recruiting if, in every spare hour they have, as he said, a set of overalls were put on them and they were thrown in to dig ditches. I want to make it quite clear that I was not suggesting anything of this kind and I do not want to allow Deputy Dowling to continue to misrepresent me either.

Misunderstand rather than misrepresent.

Well, misunderstand. It is good that it should be put in this way because this was never my intention although I would remind both Deputy Tully and Deputy Dowling that a hotel manager starts peeling potatoes in the kitchen if he is ever to know his job.

And the Deputy wants a soldier to start as a fatigue man.

I do not think we will have a good Army if they are kid glove people completely and I do not think that a bit of manual work does any man any harm and particularly a man who might be called upon for considerable physical strain at some stage. A young fellow who cannot take off his coat occasionally and do a bit of work is no good to an army. It would help to give people an interest in life and to prevent boredom if they were doing something knowing that they were making a contribution to the development of the country.

A second point on which I was taken up was in relation to the FCA. I said that a year or so earlier a small group had appeared as a Colour Party or something at the GPO and that I did not think they were dressed for the occasion. That was regarded as a criticism by me of the FCA generally and following our debate here a number of letters appeared in the public press giving the impression that I was deliberately critical of the FCA and did not know the problems. Of course I knew the problems.

I think it was the word "dropped shoulders" which caused the trouble.

No, I said drooping, drooping because of the uniform I meant. One has to be very careful and this is something I want to clear up. What I was doing was making a case for a uniform in which these men could appear at least as well dressed as people in the regular Army, if not better. The idea that people in the FCA can have one uniform and, as Deputy Tully said, jump into ditches and out of ditches for three years and appear at a public parade in that uniform at the end of three years is quite ridiculous. It gives a very wrong impression. On occasions of that kind we should ensure that people serving in the Army, whether in the FCA or otherwise, are very well dressed and very well turned out. When we have a public display it should be at top level because they are competing with other people in civilian life who are putting their best foot forward on that occasion and the eyes of people both inside and outside the country are on them. On those occasions we should ensure that they are very well turned out.

No one appreciates more than I the contribution that is being made by the FCA. I should hate any false impression to go out about what I think of the FCA and the work they are doing. Like every other organisation, there could be criticism of them here and there. There are people in the FCA who are not pulling their weight, but you have that everywhere else. We all admit and accept that. Perhaps this activity needs to be investigated from time to time also.

One of the things which impressed me about the debate here last year was the fact that those who spoke, spoke sincerely and critically whether they were on the Government benches or the Opposition benches. Some of the most critical comments regarding the shortcomings of the Army came from Deputy Dowling, and he spoke with first-hand experience. This is as it should be. If somebody in the House knows the position and knows it intimately, he should give the Minister the benefit of his experience and let him know where he thinks things could be improved. That should be accepted as constructive criticism.

I should like to refer to my visit to The Curragh when I got an opportunity of seeing for myself at first-hand——

Did the Deputy visit the Glasshouse?

I visited The Curragh and I would suggest that, if they can find the time and if they are permitted to do so, more people should visit the various Army establishments.

We might all finish up inside in that old place yet.

We have a good deal to learn about the Army and this is an area in which we should all co-operate. Quite frankly, I should like to see a committee of the House set up to visit the Army establishments as far as that is possible, a committee of nine or ten people from the various parties. I have always felt that we have far too many Army establishments throughout the country. This must be an immense strain on the limited Army personnel. We have built no new barracks. We should look critically at this matter to see if we could dispose of some barracks and make money from them.

It is about time that we built one up-to-date military establishment somewhere in the country. One bomb could wipe out most of the barracks in Dublin because they are so concentrated. I do not know what the need for that concentration is and I think it is extraordinary strategy. Many of these barracks are on very valuable sites. We have done nothing to replace them or bring them up to date and make them modern Army establishments. When will we build? We build the odd hospital and we build institutions of all sorts, but we have never thought of building anything for the Army.

We fail to the same extent in providing accommodation for Army personnel. Recently I read a letter from the superior officer of an unfortunate man who is looking for a house in the Dublin area. It gives a good idea of the standard of the accommodation in which men have to live in our Irish Army. The National Building Agency provides houses for industrial workers and for local authorities but, apparently, we never thought of getting the National Building Agency to provide houses for the Army or even of setting up a section of the Army to build houses and provide reasonable accommodation.

This is a letter to the county council, if I may quote it:

I wonder if you could give X's application——

I am deliberately not giving the name——

——for housing favourable consideration as a matter of some urgency. He is living at the moment in an Army flatlet at the above address. It consists of a living room and one small bedroom and at the moment it is in urgent need of major repair. The ceiling of the living room is falling down and the floor of the room is falling in. Repairs cannot be carried out while the family is in occupation and there is at present no alternative accommodation which we can offer.

The letter goes on to say that X has three small girls — I will not give their ages but they are young — and that all three sleep in the only bedroom while the mother and father because of lack of space have to live in the living-room. It goes on to say:

I understand that X is on your housing list for 13 years.

The letter gives more details.

The Minister may say this is a reflection on the Dublin County Council. I agree that perhaps it is a reflection on Dublin County Council but it is also a reflection on the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Defence. We have this sort of dual responsibility for housing people in the Army shared between Local Government and Defence with the result that it is not done by anyone. It is time that a decision was taken once and for all that Defence should undertake this responsibility of looking after housing accommodation for their own people.

I wanted to refer to my visit to The Curragh. The Minister assured me here at Question Time that I would be very courteously received. I did not expect anything else and I was very courteously received. I was impressed by the fact that the OC of the camp and the other people with whom we came in contact were anxious to let us see the good and the bad. There was no special dressing up for our visit which I think many people anticipated. As far as I could see there was no special dressing up and there was no great anxiety to hide things of which people would normally be ashamed. This is as it should be. We were brought around the establishment. When I say "We" I mean Deputy Malone, the Deputy for the area, and myself. We were shown as much as it was possible to show us in one day. I was impressed by the enthusiasm and interest of the responsible people there to make improvements and make the maximum use of the resources there.

As far as I could see the weapons of war which have recently been acquired are as up to date as our sort of money can purchase. My memories of the Army go back to the Lee-Enfield rifle. It was not a bad instrument but we have come a long way since then. Our weapons of war are first class, but we do not seem to have the means of transporting these weapons around the country and thereby making the Army operational. It is obvious that the most suitable type of transport is a fleet of four-wheeled jeeps, but we do not have one. We also badly need a fleet of four-wheeled trucks, but we do not have one.

When I raised the question of transport before the reply I received was that if there was an emergency in the morning this sort of transport could be commandeered. I do not think this sort of transport could be commandeered because first of all it is not in the country and, secondly, if it is it is so scattered throughout the country that it could not possibly be assembled fast enough. I doubt if the location of such vehicles is kept track of. I do not think transport could be assembled quickly even on the basis of commandeering it.

It is appalling to think that most of our trucks are 15 years old. It must be almost impossible to get parts for them in order to keep them road worthy. I am sure the Minister will be the first to agree that expenditure on transport is urgently needed. It is ridiculous to have first class equipment and men trained to use that equipment, but because there is no transport it is not possible to make the Army operational. Officers in The Curragh are satisfied that the men are well trained and that the equipment is good, but I did hear criticism about the shortage of transport. I am sure the Minister is conscious of this and is trying to get the necessary money to make these purchases. The Minister did not tell us whether any sum out of this large Supplementary Estimate is to be expended on this. The sum of £740,000 is required for fishery protection vessels, but a different sum is mentioned in the statement and I am sure other items are included. Expenditure on mechanical transport is to be £111,000. I would like to know whether the deficiency I have referred to is covered under this subhead, because if it is not it should certainly be.

There is a lack of central heating in The Curragh. I do not think the expenditure involved in providing central heating would be enormous and considerable economies would be effected because it would be unnecessary to provide fuel for open fires. An efficient system of central heating would add to the comfort of the people living there. The floors, floor coverings and furniture in many of the old buildings need improving in order to bring them into line with the living conditions of ordinary people in civilian life.

Sanitary facilities are poor and in many cases they are situated far from the main living quarters. This applies to quarters for both married and single men. The improvements which have been carried out on a limited number of living quarters are excellent. They have made an enormous difference to the living conditions of the people concerned, and at comparatively small expenditure worthwhile work has been done to the accommodation. I should like to see an extension of the improvements carried out in married quarters as quickly as possible.

There is something wrong with the system for getting work done because both the Civil Service and the Army are involved. It would be far better if the professional people in the Army made estimates of the requirements, and they are well capable of doing that, and then they could be held responsible for carrying out the work instead of having a section of the Civil Service responsible for the purchase of materials and the carrying out of work. Very often the job is half done and there is a delay of nine or 12 months because some small item is needed whereas if the Army were directly responsible they could obtain it straight away and get the job done.

I want to pay particular tribute to the people living in quarters, whether they are quarters that have been improved or not, because the standards in those homes could not be higher. The pride those people take in their homes is very impressive. They were all spotlessly clean, nicely decorated and furnished at their own expense.

The two main things I noticed were the lack of central heating and the inadequate sanitary accommodation. The FCA criticised the sanitary accommodation last summer. I know that when people go for annual training they cannot expect to have everything perfectly laid on for them, in fact, it would be wrong if they were treated to the highest hotel standards. There are acceptable and unacceptable standards. If we want to keep people interested in the FCA work and in the Army there must be some upgrading. Minimum standards at least must be provided, whatever the cost. The standards are obviously well below what are available to people outside the Army.

We must look at the educational opportunities provided at The Curragh. I was very impressed by them. Anyone interested in improving himself educationally has the opportunity of doing so at The Curragh. There is a good library there. The Minister has referred to the various classes provided there. The Minister spoke about the day certificate which is given after a year's course. I do not know what recognition this certificate is given outside the Army. Would it get a person anywhere? Can one reach the standard where he would get something equivalent to the group certificate which so many young people need before starting apprenticeship? This group certificate should be available for the younger people in the Army. There should be a climate of vocational education and training in the Army. This is the way to attract young people and to upgrade standards in the Army to a desirable level. Everything in the Army is becoming more technical. More technical skills will be required in the future than have been necessary heretofore. We must educate our own young people.

I looked at the equipment necessary for the signal corps at The Curragh. It seems to me to be extremely complicated equipment, requiring a high standard of technician to operate it. People with such skills are trained at Naas. It is difficult for the Army to keep these technicians with specialised knowledge. Specialised education is necessary to operate the signal corps equipment. Personnel of this kind find rewards in the Army are very poor in comparison with those available to them outside the Army. This matter must be examined urgently.

Last year Deputy Dowling was very critical of the facilities available at Naas. I must visit Naas very soon. The facilities available at Naas are essential. I have heard many criticisms of the conditions there. Some of the criticisms may be important. It has been said that there are broken concrete floors in the classrooms. The industrial type of heating which is provided must be switched off when classes start because of the noise it makes. The instructor cannot be heard. This is an important point which must be examined. It has been said that there is no hot water in the classrooms or washrooms. This defect should be corrected. Sheepwire is used as partitioning in workshops. There are no teachers' rooms. Meals must be consumed in classrooms. These are serious defects in what I would regard as an important vocational school which turns out excellent people. These standards must be upgraded. There are no telephone facilities available in the school to the teachers. The textbooks are up to 20 years out of date.

I wish to put these matters on the record of the House. I believe these complaints are true. If they are true the Minister has a responsibility to see that they are corrected. It is said that there is no duplicating machine for drawings and that the electrical hoist has been out of order for two years. I do not know who is responsible for ensuring that a defect like that is attended to quickly. Perhaps the people on the spot have some responsibility. Perhaps they have been making representations which have been ignored. It is also said that the machines, equipment and tools are in poor condition and that no modern engines are available in the garage workshops. The most up-to-date water-cooled engine was one manufactured in 1954. These are serious defects which must be examined. We have a responsibility to make people aware that we have serious shortcomings and that everything possible is being done to overcome them. I mentioned these defects because they tie up with the educational facilities being provided at The Curragh Camp.

The recreational facilities have impressed me. They have been criticised in the past. I would not wish for much more than I saw at The Curragh by way of recreational facilities. There is a first-class heated swimming pool and a first-class gymnasium. There is an indoor riding school for the schooling and training of horses. There are tennis courts and facilities for basketball and all other sports. There are pitches for football. All sports are equally well catered for. It is well to mention the good things as well as the bad things. It is extremely important that such facilities should be provided and that they should be of a high standard. People in the Army have led in sport of all kinds for years. They should continue to lead and to involve people outside the Army in such matters. They should help them and encourage them in their interest in these various recreational facilities.

I was pleased to learn that opportunities are provided for people living in the neighbourhood of The Curragh to come in and enjoy some of the recreational facilities available. People are encouraged to come in and participate. People outside the Army thus have an opportunity of seeing what life in the Army is like. They can see that certain aspects, at least, can be extremely enjoyable and interesting. There has been too little communication with the outside world and far too little known about life in the Army, but I believe that there is a great effort being made and there is a great interest being taken by the responsible people in The Curragh. I was impressed by the fact that they have started an employment agency and a credit union in The Curragh. This is all being done outside the normal duties. They invite people in industry and commerce to let them know if they have vacancies and they are very anxious to communicate to people generally the fact that they have a pool of labour in the age group of 40 to 50 years well qualified to take up many jobs in ordinary civilian life. For some time before the men are due to retire everything possible is done to equip them for life outside the Army. This represents a considerable advance on the position that obtained for far too long. It is work that should be commended and every effort should be made to further what is being done in The Curragh.

We hear a great many complaints from time to time. The one that comes most frequently to me is that relating to the selection of people for overseas duties and the selection of people to do duty on the Border. I have had a flood of complaints from people who say that, every time there is a job to be done on the Border, where conditions are not good by any means, they are selected but they are never good enough for Cyprus. I do not know how these selections are made, or why, but I understand that life on the Border is not by any means rosy, that some people are being selected for it too frequently and get no opportunity of doing something they consider worthwhile, namely, serving overseas.

I suppose every Deputy gets a certain amount of correspondence and criticism of one kind or another. I have had correspondence from people who are very constructive and really interested in upgrading the Army and doing something for it. They are not cranks. We all come across those from time to time. I have here a document — I do not know from where it came — containing many constructive suggestions. If I might be permitted to read the opening paragraph I think the House will find it very interesting. It is enlightening. The Minister may be aware of this document.

Commissioned officers are promoted automatically at stated intervals to the rank of Captain and are virtually sure of promotion at least to the rank of Commandant. Non-commissioned ranks are trained to hold at least one higher rank than they are permitted to reach. The number of appointments are restricted to a low level when the total strength is low, as it has been for many years.

This is something we should bear in mind: the strength of the Army is very, very low and, because it is, the opportunities for promotion are correspondingly very low.

While there are over 200 colonels and lieutenant-colonels in the Army the number of appointments for sergeant-major and barrack quarter-master-sergeant is about 32 and 35 respectively. This is a ludicrous situation and entirely contrary to the normal requirements of military forces. Other armies promote NCOs of warrant officer rank to full administrative appointments. This rank is not availed of here and the appointments are nominally held by junior commissioned officers but the work is carried out by senior NCOs. This leads directly to many of the ills and unrest which exist in the Army.

I do not want to take up too much time by quoting extensively from this document. It is an enlightening document. It points out that this downgrading more or less of NCOs started in 1959 and, in particular, it applies to NCOs serving with the FCA. They do the job but they get neither the pay nor the recognition for doing it. The job is nominally held by a junior commissioned officer who has, apparently, no training for it. It is very rarely that he is physically present. The job has to be carried out and the responsibility has to be borne by a non-commissioned officer who has really no authority to do the job. He has responsibility without authority. The Minister should take a good hard look at this situation to see if anything can be done to solve this problem. NCOs are very important people if standards are to be kept up. They know their job. They have years of experience. There is very little in the game they do not know and there is very little they are not capable of passing on and I think they should be recognised and this type of experience should be rewarded.

The Army is still seriously under strength and not enough effort is being made to recruit. Not enough publicity is being given to the opportunities now available in the Army. The Minister's statement today highlighted the educational opportunities that are becoming available in the Army. I hope these will attract more people into the Army. We need more people and need them very badly.

The Minister referred to fishery protection. As he said, this is something in which considerable interest has been shown by this House over the years. He should have said over a long number of years. The situation is desperate. We have been virtually without fishery protection for a long time. At least something is on the way. It is disappointing to find that the first of the vessels being purchased will not be ready for delivery until 1972. I understand these things cannot be produced overnight but it is rather disappointing. I know the Minister has seen the importance of providing some interim protection and has made arrangements for the early purchase of three suitable craft from the British Admiralty, apparently. Is it the intention that these three vessels in addition to the three already on order will be retained on fishery protection work?

Many closely associated with fishery protection believe that three vessels are insufficient and that we require six to provide reasonable coastal protection. I hope that when we have the three vessels delivered the others will be retained. There seems to be magic in the number three; it has been three as long as we can remember. Since we have now considerably expanded our trawler fleet, we must protect our territorial waters and fishing grounds. The need for this might become even greater if we join the EEC. I am very glad that it appears efforts are being made now to provide adequate fishery protection. At least a positive start has been made and I wish to give the Minister due credit for this.

The Minister did not refer to the EEC or to our commitments if we enter the EEC. I know it has been said that we are not required, in the course of negotiations, to give any undertaking regarding defence. I think that is the position, but we should recognise the fact that the least that will be expected of us is that we will be able to protect our own territory and provide a fairly solid nucleus of people well-equipped and well-trained in the use of Army equipment. It may also be expected that there will be an interchange of knowledge and people between various EEC countries at a certain stage. I do not know if any special training or preparation is required but certainly the Army needs strengthening and, as one Member of the House, I am very pleased that there is now more interest being taken in the Army, more money being spent on it. The fact that the Estimate is now on its way to the £20 million mark will make people sit up and ask what value we are getting, what state of efficiency has the Army achieved and what contribution is expected of it in the future. There will be increased interest generally. We should open up the Army and let the public see what is happening inside and let them know the contribution the Army is making.

At present the Minister said the Army is operating under considerable strain. So it is. We should all be grateful to the Army for guarding vital installations and various other things. Much of this work is done by the FCA on week-ends and other times.

The Army has an important role and we have a responsibility to let the people know that, because the Army has always been looked on as a sort of nuisance that must be retained at considerable cost. This attitude must be changed and the attitude to Army personnel generally must be changed. I hope that all of us who have a contribution to make will help towards that end.

Unlike Deputy Clinton I did not visit The Curragh because I suppose if the Minister for Justice has his way we may all find ourselves there some day. But I did visit all military barracks in the southern and eastern commands. There was nothing prearranged about my visits. In the case of Limerick I gave about five minutes notice because I live about five minutes away from Sarsfield Barracks. I know the barracks for many years and visit it occasionally but in a detailed inspection of the barracks I found there were four types of accommodation for NCOs and men. The rooms were something like 30 feet by 24 feet, accommodating six men. I found similar rooms which were divided into sections each accommodating three men; cubicles occupied by one man each. These were usually reserved for old soldiers and they had a light over each bed. In all cases each man is provided with a spring bed, foam mattress, foam pillows, four blankets, two sheets, pillow case, bedside rug, bedside locker, wardrobe, tubular chair and table in each room. Each man had a light and switch over his bed. Washing facilities, showers and toilet facilities are on each landing. In addition, an NCO is provided with a washhand basin, chest of drawers and mirror. The water for washing and showers is heated by electricity. The NCOs' bunks and men's rooms are heated by Romanese stoves using machine-won turf The men's dining room is centrally heated provided by Trianco boiler using anthracite. There is a communal bathhouse which is used by 22 families of approximately 44 adults and 103' children. There are showers and a reclining bath. That is the position as I saw it in Limerick.

The Minister had also built six beautiful houses within the barrack grounds. These were new and well-laid-out houses, up to a good standard. My criticism was that the barracks lacked central heating. It is a very old stone building, going back to the British days, and it is damp. I suggest that the whole place be centrally heated. I visited the kitchen and I found that the food in the store was perfect but the bacon was of bad quality. That is the only criticism I could make in regard to Limerick. The bacon was too fat for my taste and I should say it was of very low grade.

I visited Clonmel which is some 40 or 45 miles from Limerick. I gave them an hour's notice and then I was on my way. I was very much impressed by what I saw in Clonmel. I think I was more impressed by what I saw in Clonmel than what I saw on any other visit to other barracks. I visited Clonmel on the 4th December, arriving there at about 12.45 p.m. The officers were good enough to entertain me to lunch and after that I visited the writing room. Here I found that desks were provided, stationery was provided and indeed everything was laid on to accommodate the men for whatever writing they had to do. I also saw the dormitories and the cubicle type rooms. I was very much impressed by the cubicle type accommodation and while the dormitory type room was suitable for group type accommodation I expressed the wish that all accommodation would eventually be converted to the cubicle type room. I was pleased with the beds and furniture generally and I was glad to see that spare rooms were kept aired and ready for immediate occupation. I also visited the workshops, the barber's shop as well as the tailor's shop and I was very impressed by the high standard of efficiency displayed all round.

In regard to recreation facilities in Clonmel it was obvious that this aspect of the men's lives was well catered for but I would impress on the Minister that there should be more inter-Command competitions in order to generate a more active participation in games. Handball alleys are laid on in all the places I visited but there were no inter-Command competitions in handball, basketball or any kind of football, and this is something to which the Minister and his Department should apply themselves in order to develop more sociable contacts between the different Commands. The standard displayed at a soccer match which was in progress when I was there could and would be accepted in Dalymount Park, Wembley or anywhere else. They were young, energetic lads who put everything they had into the game.

What disappointed me most in Clonmel were the kitchen cooking facilities. I was surprised to see an ancient type solid fuel cooker still being used. This type of cooker, which is about 25 years old, must be uneconomic and every effort should be made to replace it. I thought that it was practically impossible to prepare food which could be properly presented under such conditions. It is time we got away from this large, filthy type of range in the centre of the floor. It should be replaced. It could not be compared with the beautiful copper and chrome facilities we have in Sarsfield barracks in Limerick. The range in Clonmel should be scrapped because it is only fit for scrap.

I was very much impressed by the food and the food that was stored. I learned that the men were given turkey twice a week. As I said, this was early in December. There was plenty of food but there again the bacon which I saw was of a very low quality. When contracts are being sought the standard for bacon should be specified and these men should not be given the cast off bacon of the factories, which I think was what happened. I had a similar experience in Galway and Athlone with regard to bacon.

Deputy Clinton referred to educational facilities. In Clonmel the barracks is situated across the road from the vocational school. They have a classroom in the barracks which I visited and in which there were some 13 boys. As there is no accommodation in the school for the boys a vocational teacher comes across from the school. These classes are provided so that the boys may obtain the group certificate, which we all know is of a high standard and is equal to the intermediate certificate. By doing this the boys will be able to apply for a skilled trade which they may wish to take up. More and more of these classes should be provided within the Army. I was very impressed by the standard of the boys and of the teacher. I remained in the classroom for about a half an hour. I addressed the students for ten or 15 minutes. I told them what was being done for them and impressed on them the manner in which they should co-operate so that if they returned to civilian life they would be able to take their place as first class, disciplined citizens. I invited questions from the class and I must say the questions were of a high standard. They asked about the future of the country, where we were going in EEC matters and so on, and I was greatly impressed.

In regard to religious facilities in Clonmel there is no chaplain provided but a local priest visits the barracks and they have Mass there every Sunday, confessions are heard, and so on. I suppose a resident chaplain is not warranted there, as he is in Galway, Limerick and Athlone. The work done in the workshops is excellent and the maintenance work being done around the barracks by the carpenter and others was also of an excellent quality. As I said before, this was a spot visit, nothing was laid on, I just walked in after giving short notice and said I wanted to see the place. The visit was informal, I asked many questions and I saw everything for myself. I do not know what happened to Deputy Clinton when he wanted to visit The Curragh, over a period of weeks and months, but I did not meet with any such resistance. When I telephoned I was told that I was welcome and to come along. I cannot understand what happened in regard to The Curragh. I suppose they were preparing the Glasshouse, or they were busy doing it up for us, or some old concentration camp with wires around it to lock us up some fine day. I do not know.

I want to thank the people who received me in Limerick and Clonmel and for the courteous manner in which I was received. They showed me everything I wanted to see, nothing was hidden and I got all the information I sought.

My visit to Galway was on the 11th December and not only was I pleased with the vocational training there but I found that there were some 15 university students there who would not be able to attend Galway University were it not for the fact that there were facilities for them in the Army. There were two men from Limerick, whom I knew very well, and they were grateful to have the opportunity of attending the university at Galway. They realised they would never have had a chance to do a university course were it not for the facilities laid on by the Army. It is easy to criticise but we must realise that responsibilities and difficulties are presented every day. We will always have the begrudgers but there will be very few who will say: "This is the answer, this is what should be done." I am expressing my views for what they are worth and giving the Minister an account of what I saw during my visits.

I have not visited the Eastern Command yet but I shall visit it, and at very short notice. I do not know whether the same university facilities are available in the Eastern Command as exist in Galway; if they are not they certainly should be and the men should be given this opportunity. The provision of these facilities is worthwhile and I commend the Minister for what he has done.

In the men's billets in Galway I noted that central heating was installed. I took the measurements of the billets and was informed that it is proposed to convert the billets into cubicles — as in Limerick and Clonmel. I would recommend that the Minister expedite the change-over to cubicles in Galway in order to give the men extra comfort and privacy.

In Galway I was much impressed by the PX store — as it is called in Europe. These stores are located in the German, British and American Army centres throughout Europe where men can purchase articles, at very low cost. In the shop in Galway I saw displayed electric clocks, watches and razors which were available to the men at a low price and these facilities should be extended throughout the Army.

There was one major difficulty with regard to administration in Galway. The administrative area extends to Donegal. I do not know how many square miles are covered but I was surprised to see how extensive an area was involved when I studied the map. I asked to see the transport and I was shown a collection of bone-shakers and ramshackle lorries which were falling to pieces. The men are expected to use these old vehicles on long journeys up to Donegal. It is time the lorries were sent to the museum as antique pieces because that is all they are.

The gym in Galway was in perfect order and the men were using all the facilities available there. However, I should like to see competition between the different commands in order to create a competitive atmosphere. It would generate a keener interest in Army life when these competitions are in progress, as existed during the emergency days.

I was very pleased to find that the NCOs' mess in Galway was being redecorated. A point I should like to mention is that there are some 40/50 acres of grassland lying waste at the moment. The Galway barracks is divided into two sections — the main road cuts between one part of the barracks and the other. Some 40 acres of land that might be developed are lying idle. For example, we could build houses for the men. The area extends to the seafront at the side of the barracks and the main road runs near it so that the services are laid on. On the other side of the road — adjacent to the railway line — plans are in hand for the erection of some kind of superstructure. I saw the plans and I was pleased with them. However, plans and talk are one thing but getting the bricks and mortar on to the site is another.

I want to impress on the Minister that if we are serious about the retention of our Army and if we wish to encourage young boys to take up Army life we must give them a modicum of the comfort they would have in civilian life. I am telling this to the Minister so that he and his Department will go ahead and get something done. On the same day I also visited Athlone——

By helicopter, no doubt?

No, by bicycle. I can still get around. The Deputy did a bit of travelling himself in the Donegal by-election to watch some of his own men and check on what they said and did not say. However, I was at my leisure and was not under tension. In my visit to Athlone I was pleased with the condition of the men's dining-room. The Athlone barracks are well laid out; I was pleased with all I saw and I would like to commend the men for the courtesy they showed me. I arrived unannounced and at short notice so that the carpets were not laid out. However, I was not pleased with the married quarters in Athlone. There are some 20 families living in the married quarters. The houses are very old, the rooms are small and badly lighted. Windows, too, are very small. If these houses were subject to public authority inspection, they would be condemned out of hand.

They have been condemned.

By the local authority.

The local authority have no power to condemn army dwellings.

They have indicated that the dwellings are unfit for human habitation.

But they have no power to condemn. These dwellings are being phased out gradually but the process is much too slow.

With regard to promotion in the Army I see no reason why anybody who enters Army life should not be entitled to the full line of promotion as happens in the Garda Síochána. Some years ago there was trouble when a man was taken from the civil service and appointed to the position of either commissioner or assistant commissioner. There was public outcry at the time and rightly so. If a boy enters the Army as a private, that is all right, but the full line of promotion should be open to him if his ability and capacity for work so warrants. It is frustrating for any young man joining the Army to have to make up his mind that he will not attain higher rank than that of sergeant.

And lieutenant. They can go higher than that.

We know there were some such promotions lately but only lately. Also, the Department of Defence should be run by Army men who have the necessary ability. It should not be run by civil servants who, on joining the service, may be sent to Parkate Street where they spend their day writing and telephoning about matters of which they know little or nothing. The best judge of army routine would be the man who has come from the ranks, who has been on the barrack square or who has been away in Cyprus or elsewhere. I trust the Minister will consider seriously what I am saying.

In the past, great honour and glory was brought to our country by the school of equitation. There were great men on the team and they won honour all over the world. However, for some unknown reason, the school has been practically scrapped. Certainly, it has not been encouraged. The meagre allowance would not encourage anybody to go into the equitation school. I would suggest to the Minister that he reform the school of equitation so that we might once again have people like the Ger Dwyers, the Cyril Hartys and the Dan Corrys. In this way, too, we would boost the sale of our bloodstock in countries all over the world. I shall be saying more about that on the Vote for Agriculture.

Something should be done, too, to improve the quality of army uniforms, particularly, uniforms of privates and corporals. At the moment uniforms are made of what I would call beef or bullock wool——

Bull wool.

I will leave the bull talk to the Fianna Fáil benches. I am sure that if there were greater opportunities for promotion within the Army, more and more young men would be attracted to army life. They will not be so attracted while there prevails the cul-de-sac life that is there at the moment.

I congratulate the Minister on the manner in which he is doing a very hard job. However, I have no doubt that if the problems facing him are handled in a proper way, our Army will be equal to, if not better than, any army in Europe at the present time.

First of all, I congratulate the Minister on his constructive brief in relation to the many aspects of army life and for his consideration of the various problems which are presented to him. The present Minister is a man with the understanding and ability to make great advances in relation to the Army.

I must admit that I am not concerned particularly about army officers because I think they can look after themselves. Of course, I would be concerned in cases where they might be experiencing injustices of any kind. However, I am concerned greatly with NCOs and others; in particular, I am concerned with the great stresses of duty experienced by personnel who serve in the officers' mess. Soldiers who are required for more effective duty elsewhere should be relieved of the responsibility of pulling pints for officers. Perhaps service men who might be disabled in some way could be assigned to such tasks. Also, there is the question of officers' orderlies. Very often an OC is only second in command when his wife is around and in some cases orderlies find that they are expected to polish floors and even wash nappies. Such duties can have a depressing effect on these young men.

As regards relations between NCOs and officers there would appear to be too great a gap in this respect during peacetime and it is only when they go overseas together that, of necessity, this gap is bridged. This results in greater co-operation. At home, it tends to create a very wide bridge between the officers and NCOs. There is great understanding when abroad. I hope this matter will be rectified by the overseas service and will create a more desirable contact between NCOs and officers.

In relation to the soldier himself, there are very many aspects of his conditions that need to be improved and that can be improved with little cost to the Department. From the point of view of suggestions from soldiers, the position is not satisfactory. An officer tends to think in terms of officers and not in terms of private soldiers unless he was himself at one time a private soldier. Often recommendations made to officers are discarded simply because they themselves did not think them up. It should be possible for NCOs and men to make suggestions which would be channelled to an authority who will give them adequate and proper consideration. This would have the effect of an improvement in their conditions. Useful suggestions have often been made which did not get the attention they merited. I urge the Minister to set up some type of committee for this purpose. In many cases, the non-commissioned officer or the soldier is just as intelligent as the officer and the interchange of ideas would be to the benefit of all. Despite improvements in pay and conditions, there is still plenty of room for further improvement.

At the moment, there is little or no incentive to a private soldier to do better. The malingerer or the dodger will get the same benefits in the end. There is no good conduct pay here as there is in other armies. There is no incentive to do better. We must consider those people who are making the Army their career, who are willing to do their best, who do not want to malinger or to dodge their duties. For that reason, the question of good conduct pay must be considered.

There are many duties outside the normal run of military duties. While I do not agree with Deputy Clinton's suggestions in this respect nevertheless they are a basis for examination— waterways and other services — of what could be done by the Army to relieve the boredom of purely peacetime service and to equip them for placement in positions in civilian life when they leave the Army.

The young soldiers who join our Army come from good homes. Some military barracks are badly heated and these young men find themselves in conditions far removed from the comfortable conditions they enjoyed at home. A comprehensive examination of our barracks must be undertaken immediately because the conditions in some of them are appalling. Perhaps The Curragh, or portion of it, could be made into an industrial estate or put to some better use than at present — derelict rooms, broken windows, and so on. An examination should be made of The Curragh in this respect as distinct from barracks in other places.

It is time we disposed of some of our out-of-date barracks in Dublin city and provided ourselves with a decent military station. I was sorry so many acres were given away at Tallaght as it is a suitable place for a new military development. I trust the Army have retained enough land there for a new barracks. The day has come for new installations and new barracks in keeping with modern conditions and modern outlook in relation to fall-out and other factors for which one must make allowance in the future. It would be very easy to block off barracks in the centre of a city. It is also highly undesirable to have military barracks situated in a densely-populated area. There would be difficulty in getting out equipment and, from the point of view of air raids or other modern warfare methods, a barracks located in a densely-populated area would be a good target for attack, while, on the other hand, the facilities there would be absolutely nil.

In the provision of new barracks, we must bear in mind the question of central heating and the reconstruction of billets. Deputy Coughlan mentioned Kickham Barracks in Clonmel. The conditions under which some of our soldiers sleep are unsatisfactory and I am sure none of us in this House are happy about them. I have been around a number of our military posts and noted the conditions. I saw the bad conditions in which some of the apprentices in Kildare had to exist. This must surely have an adverse effect on the morale of young people. The accommodation for them should be of the best. These young men came from good homes and expect, and are entitled to, a reasonable degree of comfort in the barracks.

I urge the Minister to consider disposing of some of the military stations in Dublin city and moving out at least to the perimeter of the city and building something there that we can all be proud of. The old barracks have out-lived their usefulness as military stations. There are no facilities in them of the kind we would desire for our men. It would cost far more to reconstruct the old barracks than to erect a new military station. I am quite certain that with the disposal of some of the military barracks in Dublin for a substantial price we would be enabled to build a new up-to-date barracks at little extra cost to the Exchequer.

The question of food has been mentioned. People coming into the Army expect to get reasonable attention in this respect. Though I agree that at store level the foodstuffs being provided are excellent, I am sorry to say the end product is not the best. Emphasis will have to be laid on the training of cooks and other cookhouse personnel. To do this outside courses should be availed of by the Army to a greater extent than in the past, if they were availed of at all in the past. There are excellent courses, for instance, at Cathal Brugha Street and it would be well worthwhile to avail of them. This would not only put catering in the Army on a more realistic basis and thereby give better service to the men who serve, but it would also equip those men who do those courses with opportunities for outside employment as chefs and cooks when they leave the Army.

Another point in regard to the matter of food is in relation to the variety of supplies. We should aim to have the variety of items of diet more comprehensive than it was in the past. I have said before that personnel in charge of rations should be able to change one item for another, to take one item in lieu of another, and thus to bring about greater variety. It has worked very well and has brought about a much improved service from the cookhouse because there is now a greater variety of items available through barter with suppliers. This could not be managed if there was strict adherence to this comprehensive list of rations issued under DFR. On occasions when I have visited barracks I have found the men happy about this and I hope it will develop. I hope this will be developed further in the future despite Civil Service machinery.

As soldiers progress through the Army many of them avail of married quarters. In this respect we have a most deplorable situation both in Dublin and in the country, particularly at McDonagh Barracks in The Curragh and at Arbour Hill and Cathal Brugha Barracks. One feels depressed to see the type of married quarters in which young soldiers have to live and this, in turn, raises the question of overholding. The day has come when it is neither necessary nor desirable that married soldiers and their families should be cooped up behind barrack walls. We must get away from that type of married quarters, particularly in The Curragh where now, thanks to recent alterations, there are some good married quarters. Nevertheless, throughout the service married quarters are no better than small boxes, particularly in the McDonagh area. Special attention should be given to this.

A new view must be taken of the housing of Army personnel and in this respect I would particularly mention men doing duty in particular areas. The Army authorities should be enabled to provide accommodation for such men on a similar basis to that adopted by local authorities and the finance to do this should come not from the Defence Vote but from the Capital Budget. If we continue with the present system it will be years before any worthwhile improvements are made because of the lack of money. It could become a simple matter if the Army authorities co-operated with the local authorities in areas where there are military installations. The important point is that married soldiers should be able to live outside barracks and not be subject to whistles and bugles and continuous inspections of quarters. If there have to be inspections they should be done in a reasonable and sensible way.

We know that many of the married quarters are beyond conversion. We know the number of questions which have been put down in the House in relation to simple things like a switch or a plug in married quarters in Cathal Brugha Barracks and elsewhere. It is difficult to get an additional plug put in without raising the matter in the House. This causes considerable discontent among personnel who are prepared to devote years of their lives to the service of the nation. They should not be forced to live in married quarters where both they and their wives may be in conflict with NCOs. Still on that subject, the Minister should pay special attention to the question of overholders. It is one that will have to be tackled with tact and discretion.

They will be made criminals as a result of the legislation introduced yesterday.

There will have to be some understanding with the local authorities if this question of overholders is to be solved. I do not want to see any man thrown out after years of serving. They must be accommodated, but people should be educated to the fact that at some stage they will have to leave. It is a long term matter in relation to serving personnel. Overholding will not be solved by harming people. An understanding should be arrived at with the local authority for the provision of a block of flats. Something will have to be done to ensure that married quarters are made available and that overholders will get suitable accommodation on their displacement, if that course is necessary. Much of the responsibility rests on the Army authorities for their neglect in the past in relation to personnel reaching the end of the line and not being advised as to the problems with which they will be confronted. This matter must be solved in a humane way and with the consideration which should be shown to people who have given a life's service to the nation.

I had occasion to visit the apprenticeship school at Naas. It was encouraging to see there the workshop and the facilities which were available. However, certain aspects of this apprenticeship school must be examined again. It was depressing to see the accommodation, as I said before, in which some of the apprentices had to exist. I understand there was a planning problem with the local authority in relation to the development of a structure which held up the provision of better accommodation for years. I hope such red tape will be abolished and that where there is a desire to provide better accommodation it will not be held up unreasonably.

The renewal of much of the machinery and tools at Naas is long overdue. There seems to be a peculiar system in operation whereby one cannot make a realistic assessment of the modern equipment which is necessary and desirable at this moment. Adequate facilities for the training of apprentices at Naas and Casement should be made available. Apprentices must not be trained on antiquated or out-of-date machinery or machinery which is dangerous and has passed its usefulness. I am sorry to say that some of the machinery at the school in Naas has passed that stage. I would hope that if it is necessary to replace all the machinery there that it will not be replaced on a piecemeal basis but on a general basis. If machinery is replaced on a piecemeal basis over five or eight years, then machinery is being used which is five or eight years past its best. The teachers there are quite exceptional people who are doing a wonderful job, sometimes with inadequate equipment. Every encouragement should be given to the personnel running this establishment to go ahead and make their requirements known.

Much of the equipment at Casement Apprenticeship School is also in need of replacement. A situation has developed or is developing that should be remedied in another way. Apparently if the administration decide to spend £200,000, £100,000 or £20,000 on machinery at Casement or Naas, they dictate the type of machinery they will provide in a particular year. The personnel operating the apprenticeship schools are in the best position to know what is required at a given moment. It would be much better that money should be allocated to them so that they could decide what it was essential to purchase. In that way the money would be spent more effectively than it is being spent at the moment.

As I said before, there is the situation whereby the personnel operating a cookhouse can change items with the supplier provided it does not cost any more, but at the Army barracks, if say a chair is being allocated this year and they say: "No, we do not want a chair this year. That chair is good enough. Give us this other item", they will be told: "You do not want a chair but you are not due the other item, so you will not get it until next year." This system of the replacement of items in one, two or three years should get some consideration. There are certain items which have a life of five years but they are replaced every three years because the regulation says so, while other items which have a life of possibly only one year are replaced every five years because the regulation says so. Where the officer in command or the personnel dealing with the equipment can point out that one item is necessary this year, that it has not lasted the period prescribed in the regulations, while another item will serve for two or three years more, there should be an arrangement whereby the necessary items could be acquired, where no additional expenditure would be involved. This should apply to training schools at Naas and the Air Corps and, indeed, to the various workshops throughout the Army service where the personnel in charge are handcuffed by regulations and by a variety of views up and down the line in their efforts to procure their requirements.

I am glad the Minister has mentioned the question of uniforms. A new look is desirable and possibly a redesign of the uniform. The type of uniform that has been issued from time to time has made young men feel and look shabby. People who are responsible for the issue of equipment should be properly trained. There are plenty of facilities for training these people. If a person goes to buy a suit outside he is properly fitted for it and the soldier deserves the very same service. He should not be given an ill-fitting uniform because this has an effect on his morale: he is ashamed to go out in uniform. One never sees a soldier or a military policeman in uniform in O'Connell Street in the evening nowadays. There is no indication that there is a single military station in Dublin. This is because they are issued with ill-fitting and badly designed uniforms.

I thoroughly disagreed with the last recruiting campaign. I thought it was a complete failure from the beginning. The approach was bad. There was no imagination used. A new approach to recruiting will have to be adopted. The ranger business was not appealing. We should attract people on the basis of making the Army a career. Patriotism is an effective part of an appeal and the educational facilities that are now available in the Army should be a factor in a recruiting campaign, not just a group of people running up and down a roadway shouting: "We are the Rangers." That does not appeal to anyone. The existence of educational facilities in the Army is an attraction in itself, apart altogether from the patriotic aspect and the fact that there is a career in the Army and that there will be further opportunities for the ex-serviceman when he reaches the end of the road. If we are to institute another recruiting campaign it must be on a different basis from the last one.

The £5 grant for a recruit has not been a success for a variety of reasons. These reasons are only too well known to the personnel who operate it. If this grant is desirable and is to be retained it should be altered. I do not think it is desirable. A recruiting campaign should bring in as many people as are required if it is done on a realistic basis.

The promotion of personnel has been mentioned by many speakers. The promotion of officers is automatic up to to the rank of Captain and most officers are promoted to the rank of Commandant. In relation to NCOs there is no automatic promotion. Many of the people who have spoken have probably been guilty, to some degree, of making representations, from time to time in regard to an extension of service for a long-serving NCO. Applications for extensions of service come from NCOs to a greater degree than from officers because officers are reasonably comfortably well off when they reach retirement age with the financial assistance they get by way of retirement allowances as against the NCOs or men. For that reason quite a number of NCOs who have now got a fair and reasonable income seek extensions of service. This deprives younger NCOs of promotion. This is a matter that must be examined. There is possibly some way round it. This happens in the case of the NCO or man because at that stage he has reached a situation where, with the accumulation of pay increases over the years, he feels that in the last few years of his life he is entitled to enjoy the additional financial reward after his long period of service. He is entitled to some reward after a lifetime of service. The amount he gets on retirement is far less than it should be and if he can get an extension of service more luck to him but it does deprive other NCOs of avenues of promotion.

In relation to officers, at a very early stage of an officer's career he should be assessed and the result should be made clear to him so that he could carry on and make the Army his career or get out when he is young enough to resettle himself in civilian life. Officer assessment is part and parcel of many armies. An officer is assessed at an early stage and told there is no prospect of promotion for him beyond a certain rank if he does not measure up to the standards that are required for promotion right up along the line. This is a matter that should be considered.

The question of pre-discharge leave is possibly the most important aspect of the situation. Many of the NCOs and men who are the backbone of the Army, because without them there could be no colonels, no majors, no generals, end up, having given 20 or 30 years service, with no skills whatever and find themselves minding petrol pumps. This is a degrading situation and something we must try to improve. It is being improved at the moment by the educational facilities that are being made available but not enough is being done. When a man takes on the last ten or 12 years of service to complete his 21 years there should be a guidance centre where there would be a director of educational technology who would equip and train personnel and advise them on various problems they will face during the final part of their careers.

We have people who deal with social problems but in the Army we have no such trained personnel. We must be able to tell a man—and this would relieve the married quarters situation— that he has ten years to go and that he is entitled to various concessions by way of grants to purchase a house. If he wants to end up in married quarters and then be fired out he can choose that course, but he should be told the grants which are available. Indeed, if a person is serving in the Army I do not see any reason why he should not be assisted by way of deposit because of the amount that would be to his credit over a period of years from which it could be deducted.

In the next ten or 15 years there must be a vast improvement in the resettlement allowance and the whole question of gratuities must be examined on a different basis. He must get guidance and advice about resettlement and housing. The local authorities must be asked to assist Army personnel who decide that they wish to purchase a house. The Department of Defence could make available some of the ground that they have in Tallaght and elsewhere. They sold some ground to the corporation. There is no reason why houses could not be built by the corps of engineers and other corps in the Army. This would provide a useful service to the Army. It would perfect young men in various skills and it would provide a useful outlet for their abilities. The skills of these men should be assessed and they should be suitably trained as in the case of AnCO.

The personnel of AnCO are scattered more widely than in Galway and in Shannon. There is a centre in Clonmel and there are various other centres. I was glad to hear Deputy Coughlan speak about the facilities which are made available by the vocational educational authorities there. All aspects of the careers of Army personnel must be examined. They must get proper and adequate advice. They must be told: "You have four years to do now and you qualify for this loan or grant." That type of thing is far removed from the soldier's mind when he is serving. He thinks about supplementary grants and State grants and sites in the last year or two of his service, and then it is too late. His family have moved away and he is too old to get a loan, and he is then tied to married quarters if he is lucky enough to end up there.

He should be in a position to compete on the labour market. There is no place on the labour market for the unskilled man so he must have some skill when he leaves the Army whatever that skill may be, whether it is driving a truck or anything else. The position will get more difficult as time goes on and the NCO and man leaving the Army with no skills will end up, as many others ended up, minding petrol pumps. That is a serious situation for personnel who have served so long and so loyally.

Many of the duties performed in the barracks, in the messes and elsewhere, by able-bodied men, men who are suitable for service, could be performed by disabled ex-servicemen. At the moment little or no attention is paid to disabled ex-servicemen or, indeed, to ex-servicemen of any type, and the amount of consideration they get is nil in some cases even from the Department of Defence. Overholders in married quarters through no fault of their own are deprived of the opportunity of getting State employment. Many a job comes up at a moment's notice which a man with 20 or 30 years service feels he is competent to do, but he cannot get the job unless he takes himself and his wife out of married quarters immediately. That is an undesirable situation.

A man with ten, 20 or 30 years service who sees an opportunity for civilian employment in a military barracks should not be deprived of it because he is in married quarters as he did not get advice or was ill-advised in some cases. If he is suitable he should get the job and he should get a limited time, a reasonable time, to get alternative accommodation. It is very unfair that a man should be deprived of employment by the Department of Defence or by the regulations of other Departments such as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. He should get the job if he is suitable and he should be given a reasonable time to obtain alternative accommodation, apart from the with-holding of his pension and other factors that sometimes create undue hardship.

The same thing applies to pre-discharge leave. A person could get a job with CIE and retain his pre-discharge leave. He could get a job with Roadstone or Rowntrees or other concerns and retain his pre-discharge leave, but if he got a job in the Post Office or with the Department of Defence, in the corps of engineers, he would lose his pre-discharge leave. If he wished to retain his pre-discharge leave he would not get the job. Pre-discharge leave is resettlement leave and it is deplorable to see men having to forfeit their resettlement leave just because the job is within the walls of a barracks. These factors have made many men who served in the Army very sour and they have possibly impeded recruitment because of the fact that young men saw the way their fathers or their relatives were treated, having given a lifetime of service to the nation.

A director with his own staff should be appointed to take charge of resettlement. After all a director of engineering is in charge of engineering, a director of signals is in charge of signals and a director of transport is in charge of transport. The resettlement of men requires understanding and especially trained staff are needed to deal with the educational courses, the career planning and the pre-release courses that are necessary to equip men to cope with the situation which exists in the open labour market when they retire from the Army.

There are many other matters I intended to deal with but I do not want to hold up the debate. I agree with most of what has been said by other Deputies. Of course, there are some aspects that I disagree with but in general I agree with what Deputy Clinton and Deputy Coughlan have said. I would ask for consideration to be given to the old soldier when he retires and for improvements in the conditions of barracks for young soldiers. I have not dealt with the officer situation and I am sure it will be dealt with by people more competent than I during the course of the debate. I would say that if I felt any injustice was being done my sympathy would be on the side of any officer, NCO or man who could prove that injustice was being done.

In my opinion the morale of the Army is at a very low ebb. I point to the extraordinarily high number of early retirements that have taken place during the last year to show this. Those who read Iris Oifigiúil see in practically every issue notices of officers retiring. From inquiries I have made I am satisfied that these retirements are taking place before full service has been given. The reason for this is frustration due to bad morale in the service. From conversations I have had with NCOs and men I know that this frustration and the consequent bad morale is rife through their ranks as well. The one important characteristic of an Army is high morale and if morale is low the Army is in a dangerous position.

It is not difficult to define the function of our Army. Having regard to the size of our nation it must primarily be there as an aid to the civil power. Its co-equal function must be to resist, so far as our resources and its capacity permits, an attack by an external aggressor. I would submit that our Army as it is presently constituted, trained and constructed, is unable to perform either of those functions adequately. If these inadequacies were compensated for by a very high and vigorous morale the position would not be as depressing but when morale is low, the physical inadequacies become even more dangerous and require serious and urgent attention from the Minister and his Department.

Let us take the case of a recruit to the Army and briefly follow him on his military career. We can only guess at the motives which impel him to choose the Army as a career. He may want a job and decide that here is an opportunity to stay at home and get a reasonable wage. I am sure that is a common enough motive. Most young men do not have any particular vocational aspirations when they take up their first job. They want a job with security, which will interest them and keep them occupied. It is probably those motives that inspire young men to join the Army. The occasional young man will join the Army because of the desire to taste a military career and experience military service but basically he too wants a job. A young man will stay in a job provided he gets job satisfaction. We must consider whether the young man joining the Army today is going to get job satisfaction so that he will stay in the Army and become a professional soldier.

On joining, a recruit goes into training for five months. He finishes his recruit training as a three-star private. His recruit training is in the basic infantry military skills. The question then arises where does he go? He may have a taste for one of the technical corps: medical, engineering, signals, supply and transport; he may want to become an infantry soldier, or he may want to go into the artillery. I understand that many young lads express the desire to become drivers, with a view not to staying in the Army as a driver, but with a view to acquiring a skill for the time when their Army days are over. Even at that stage they are already thinking of leaving the Army. It is only a stop gap. The difficulty is this high turnover of staff and the consequent lack of stability among personnel. So far as is possible his wishes, with regard to whatever corps he desires to go into, are honoured but by and large he will probably go to a battalion because our battalions are so notoriously under strength.

What happens to this unfortunate lad when he goes to a battalion? Because battalions are so notoriously under strength the amount of military duties he carries out are minimal. One week he may find himself bringing turf from the fuel yard. The next week he is on mess hall duty, washing dishes or waiting at table. The following week he may be on orderly duty in the officers' mess. Fatigue duties of one sort or another occupy his time.

I had occasion to question a young soldier recently on his activity in a military station. I was not doing so for the purpose of this debate but in the course of my profession. This particular soldier lived out. He reported in the morning and paraded at nine or 9.30. There was a roll call and after ten or 15 minutes he was dismissed. He then went to men's billets and for the next hour and a half he occupied himself sweeping floors and wasting time, until it was time to make tea for his sergeant. He was not alone at this, another private soldier was with him. They made tea for the sergeant and drank their own. They then went and hung around the handball alleys for half an hour until it was time to go home for lunch. He went to lunch at half past 12 and reported back at half past one, when he went back up to the billets where he was on duty as sweeper. He occupied himself in whatever way he could for another while and eventually half past four came and he went home.

That day is not untypical of the day that many of our private soldiers have to put in. It is no wonder the morale of military men is nil. Indeed, it is a miracle if there is any morale at all. The reason is that once a recruit completes his five months training and gains his three stars, he goes to a battalion but he does not receive any military training there. He should be training in mortars and he should be training in field exercises with his unit. All the time there should be a build-up towards a unit whether it be a battalion, company or platoon, of men working together, preparing to operate together and training together. This training is totally absent from our Army. Perhaps this is unavoidable because of the small numbers coming into it. No effort is made to achieve it. Without this sense of belonging to a unit and without the efficiency that constant training with familiar people gives, our Army will be inefficient and the men must necessarily suffer from bad morale. The soldier, too, sees that there is no real consideration for solving what should be obvious problems or for solving things which should never have become problems. As an example of this, I mention the new combat unifrom which was issued some time ago. That uniform should be available to all ranks. At the moment I understand that we have the ludicrous position of combat uniforms being cleaned and then handed on to other soldiers when their companions have finished training in them.

The idea of the Rangers has a certain superficial attraction but suffers from the defect that when a man has finished training as a Ranger there is no follow-up; he just goes back to sweeping billets. If the Ranger training is to be effective the men who trained as Rangers should be left as such and regarded as an élite corps of specialists or merely as a squad or platoon of highly-trained soldiers. They are not allowed to keep the combat uniforms in which they trained. The ordinary soldier or NCO must wonder what the powers-that-be think of him when they cannot even provide him with a uniform. That must lead him to realise that his place, and the place of the Army in our society, is a very low one. Who wants to belong to a low outfit? There is constant wastage as a result of this.

Deputy Dowling raised the point that no effort has been made at resettlement. No effort on a sufficiently wide scale has been made to solve the problems of resettlement. I am glad to hear from the Minister that this problem is now being examined in his Department even in a small way. Four men completed resettlement courses in welding in Galway. Three other men have commenced training in lathe operation and mechanical assembly. Arrangements have been made for the attendance of Army personnel at the AnCO centre at Shannon. This is something which should be expanded rapidly. If a recruit comes into the Army and decides that Army life is not for him but gives three years to the service of the State some provision should be made to ensure that he will be put in the way of acquiring a skill which will be valuable to him when he leaves the Army. I would ask the Minister to give urgent attention to the expansion of the retraining scheme. The co-operation of ONE could be enlisted to assist in this operation. Unfortunately, this organisation does not seem to have become as effective as it might be in connection with the welfare of ex-soldiers. If the organisation got formal help and encouragement from the Department it might be able to fulfil a more important role.

Ex-soldiers should have priority when it comes to filling civilian posts in military installations. This particularly applies to men with 15 or 20 years service. The position in Custume Barracks in Athlone at the moment is a scandal. Any civilian job at this barracks is earmarked for a small farmer from County Roscommon, which is Deputy Lenihan's constituency. This fact is well known and is a public scandal in the town. This is not calculated to increase the morale of serving soldiers who are nearing the end of their careers. They feel justifiably that they should get first preference for jobs in military installations.

The weapons and equipment available to the Army are not satisfactory. I have dealt with the combat uniforms. I come now to the actual weapons. The infantry is equipped with a rifle of a good type. There are no complaints about it. The ancillary equipment, such as machine guns and mortars and personal equipment in the form of webbing and combat equipment is notoriously lacking. A soldier does not feel adequate when he is not fully equipped. When a soldier goes into a battalion, if there is to be any military training, such training cannot take place unless all the weapons and equipment are available in adequate supplies to the unit in question. Light mortars, light machine guns and support weapons for a battalion are notoriously deficient.

If one of the roles of the Army is to aid the civil powers, equipment must be available to fulfil that role. Such equipment is non-existent. I do not know what respirators are available to the Army but I understand that the only respirators available are the old-type ones used in the last war for people going into air-raid shelters in Britain. These respirators had snouts and people carried pouches on their chests. Many of the components of these respirators were made of rubber and the rubber must have perished. Respirators are essential and basic equipment for an Army which is to fulfil a role of aiding the civil power in a situation where such civil power needs aid. I assume that would be in a riot situation. The Army have not got riot equipment such as rubber bullets, et cetera, either. I hope they will never need such equipment but, nevertheless, if the Army is to play a role at such a time it must be eqipped to fulfil it.

Another factor which depresses morale, and makes those serving in the Army wonder if anybody really cares about the Army, is the appalling state of Army transport. There is a shortage of such transport and what we have of it is completely out of date even though it is well-maintained and the vehicles are kept in clean and tidy condition. But many vehicles in the Army are mechanically defective. When it was necessary to move troops to Donegal and other places along the Border some time ago I understand that chartered transport had to be provided from sources such as CIE and private operators. Our small, limited Army was unable to move itself 100 miles within its own territory. Every officer, NCO and man in the Army knows this fact. What must they think of their outfit or of the people responsible? They must think that those responsible do not care. When vehicles go on patrol it is a basic principle of military theory that two vehicles always patrol so that if the first one is shot at the second one is there to assist. We had the appalling situation in the dangerous times when the Army were patrolling the Border that it was not possible to send two vehicles on patrol together because of shortage of vehicles. We were exposing young men to the ignominy and danger of attack by leaving them in an impossible military position. In the same way all over the country at the moment there are Army guards on various installations such as electrical stations, broadcasting stations, and power installations of one sort or another. These guards go out in thin-skinned vehicles. There is no following vehicle to give them protection. Such vehicles just are not there and the result is that these soldiers are compelled, because of the failure of the Department to provide the proper equipment, to carry out their duties in what can only be described as a most negligent manner. That is not their fault. They should not have to act like that and we should not ask them to take these risks. It is unfair. It is criminally wrong to allow vehicles of the age of our military vehicles to travel around the roads carrying troops. Many of them are mechanically defective, not because of lack of care and maintenance but purely because of age and overuse. It is a shocking situation that something so basic as transport should be in that condition.

Another piece of basic equipment needed by the Army is an adequate and efficient communications system. My understanding is that the type and number of radio sets leave much to be desired; the number is inadequate and the type is obsolete. This must damage morale. Soldiers on duty at outlying stations should be able to get into immediate contact with their headquarters if an emergency arises. The way in which they keep in touch with headquarters is something similar to the way in which a veterinary surgeon keeps in touch with his home. This is an appalling indictment on the structure of our Defence Forces. It is not the fault of the men serving; it is the fault of the Department that this situation obtains. It is indefensible, if I may be forgiven the pun. Things so basic as transport and communications should never have been allowed to deteriorate in the way they have. Apart from the danger that could arise because of this situation there is the fact that all this has a grievous effect on morale. If you have an army without morale you might as well have no army at all.

I understand our artillery is also obsolescent. Possibly we cannot afford as much artillery as we should like to have but one would like to see artillery updated by the purchase of some modern weapons. We have no high explosive anti-personnel rockets. They are standard equipment in every banana Republic. We do not seem to have heard of them yet. We have no armoured personnel carriers. Such a vehicle would provide a certain amount of safety for a guard going out to an installation or to patrol a doubtful area. It is a rather intimidating-looking vehicle though it is only light armour. In a riot situation it can be very useful. We have none. We have some armoured cars in Cyprus. They are a good type of vehicle but we have not got enough of them.

These deficiencies are intolerable. An army is not an army without these vehicles and artillery. All this has a bad effect on the morale of the officers. They are trained as professional soldiers to a greater extent than is the private; his training is not so complicated or so technical. The wastage, as I said, in officers in the past year has been phenomenal. One has only to read Iris Oifigiúil every week to discover this and it has been confirmed by my own personal inquiries. Those going out are not men who have reached the retiring age. They are going out through sheer frustration because of the inadequacies and the unprofessionalism of the Army in which they are expected to serve.

One factor which militates grievously against morale in the officer corps is the system of promotion. It is based on seniority. Nothing is more calculated to destroy initiative and stultify ambition than for a man to know that, no matter how hard he works or how good he makes himself, he will not benefit himself one single iota in his career. His place is determined by the year he left the Cadet School and the number he carried when he left. Occasionally he may be lucky enough to get into a rather specialised position which may bring promotion with it but, leaving out the medical and engineering corps, 99 per cent of those in supply and transport, in infantry and in artillery, will never be promoted until their time comes, if it ever does come. Ability has nothing whatever to do with it. This is patently ridiculous. It should not be allowed to continue. It is the main reason why men are getting out. They see people in civilian life getting advancement and they know that they will never advance one step. If a man is lucky, if the people ahead of him die or retire, he will be promoted fairly quickly. If the people ahead of him are exceptionally healthy he will probably retire as a captain.

Again, there is no resettlement programme and no training for those who leave. Such a programme is needed now more than ever before. First, the man who is going out should be trained for employment and helped to resettle. Secondly, if a man gets tired of the Army and wants to go out, he should be encouraged to go out in the knowledge that there is a suitable career waiting for him. If there is adequate resettlement promotion can then be given on merit instead of on seniority. Take the case of captains in their late thirties who are reaching the critical age when they might expect promotion. It could be put to them: "Gentlemen, some of you will not become commandants." Similarly, it could be put to the commandants: "Some of you will not become lieutenant-colonels." These officers could then be told: "You may retire if you wish. You will have a gratuity; you will have resettlement training; you will have a job in civilian life." The dedicated professional soldier will probably want to stay on but he will stay in the knowledge that he might or might not get a higher rank but the man who is, perhaps, more worried because of family commitments or other reasons will have the opportunity of leaving the Army and the promotion block at present necessarily existing, because of the system, will be, to a large extent, removed. We could then achieve the desirable state when promotion would be on merit and not seniority.

If we are to have a professional army and if the terrible wastage of officers taking place at present is to be arrested, it is crucial that the whole system of promotion be re-examined and with it, resettlement—I mean real and generous resettlement—will have to be implemented. There is no great hope or faith in the Army that any of their views on their profession will ever be heard or heeded by the Department of Defence. There is a most appalling sense of frustration among officers, NCOs and men that they might as well be talking to a wall as addressing grievances to the Department. One example: for years it was an obvious injustice that a married soldier retired without gratuity while a married officer retired with a gratuity. For years, people here and in the Army have been agitating to amend the pension scheme to provide gratuities for married soldiers. For years, it was resisted but the Minister at last came before the House in the last session with a very simple measure which went through the House within ten minutes and it was implemented. That grievance was removed but it took years to do this.

There are numerous other instances of obvious frustrations and grievances meeting the deaf ear. If an officer is serving in a station there is a deduction for room rent. That deduction is not allowable to him for income tax purposes; his income is taxed before that rent deduction is made. We have had the situation where officers who served in the Congo and lived in the most appalling situations still had their pay reduced by reductions for room rent. We even had the ridiculous situation of officers being in custody in the Congo, having been captured in the course of fighting, and deductions still been made from their pay for room rent. They were paying income tax on these deductions while they were in the hands of an enemy. This grievance is known and has been known to the Department for years but nothing has been done about it.

Again, in his speech the Minister commends the officers serving in the Middle East and he concedes there is a very tense situation in that region. That is putting it mildly; there is a very dangerous situation. Officers serving with the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organisation have lost their lives there; yet our officers serving there are prejudiced financially in doing so in comparison with their colleagues in Cyprus. This grievance has been known to the Department for years past, since officers first went to the Middle East, but nothing has been done about it. I understand it could be remedied without one penny cost to our Exchequer if a claim were to be made to the United Nations. I may be wrong in that but even if it was to be remedied from our Exchequer this should be done so that any officer serving abroad would be in the same position as any colleague serving in another part of the world particularly when the men who are prejudiced are doing a dangerous job, doing it well and bringing honour to the country and the Army. The Department should lean backwards to remedy the grievances of those men. It is this terrible frustration, this blank wall of indifference that the professional soldier meets in his Civil Service colleagues in the Department that is driving so many officers out of the Army. This is the root cause, because the grievances are all reasonable, all capable of being remedied without great expense. All that is required is initiative and energy and concern as to whether we have an efficient professional Army or not.

Another grievance that has been festering for years and affecting the officer corps is that officers have to do a command and staff course at a certain stage of their careers. This involves a nine months course at The Curragh. An officer from Athlone, Limerick, Clonmel or Cork, if he is a married man with a home in any of those stations, must drive to The Curragh at the beginning of the week, stay there for a week and then drive back to his wife and family. In those circumstances in any civilian job, if an employer directs his employee to leave home to attend a course to make him more proficient at his job he would surely make an allowance to cover the expenses in which that man is involved. The expense is heavy because these officers must contribute for their lodgings in The Curragh—not their board, I believe—and there are also numerous incidental expenses, travel up and down, maintaining two homes, in effect, but no allowance is made. The expense is not even allowable against income tax. Even if that could be done it would ease the burden of these courses. Again, this grievance has been known to the Department for years but nothing has been done about it. This is capable of a simple and speedy remedy. It is no wonder that the officer corps are frustrated when they see these simple requests ignored.

There will have to be some sort of formal channel between the Defence Forces and the secretariat of the Department. At present, the channel is informal or it does not exist; these things come secondhand and I suppose in the nature of the bureaucratic structure they are more easily ignored or are ignored. I think the time has come for a formal channel to be set up through which these grievances, suggestions for improvements and concern about Army matters can be expressed between the professional soldier and the professional civil servant. I understand and appreciate that there are difficulties in devising such a means of communication, the main difficulty being to ensure that there is no conflict with the idea of discipline. I think we could safely rely on the intelligence, the professionalism and the integrity of our soldiers to ensure that giving them a voice direct to the Department would not make them an undisciplined force. When they have not become undisciplined up to now with the frustrations they have suffered it is unlikely that will happen through providing them with the means of ending those frustrations. This means of communication, whether it will be a representative body or whatever it will be, should represent all ranks, men, NCOs and officers so that it is representative of the Army. That would go a long way towards curing some of the ills extant in the Army at present.

The Army has great potential for good in our society. I see this particularly in Athlone where I live and which is a garrison town. I should like to pay tribute to the contribution which that garrison makes to the community in Athlone. Their presence in the town is an aid to the whole economy of the region. These men are available to take part in cultural, social, sporting and educational activities in the community. Their contribution in all these activities is unfailingly dedicated. If there is any local problem that can be solved by military assistance that assistance has always been available and generously available. I should like to pay tribute to the spirit with which the Army is part of the community in Athlone. If the morale in the Army with regard to its professional activities, could be improved by remedying the grievances I have mentioned, we would be able to provide within that Army a very satisfying career for any young man who is inclined towards that type of life.

One further remark which I wish to make relates to the Minister's statement about civil defence. The theory behind civil defence is that we prepare ourselves for the consequences of a nuclear war. In my lay opinion the consequences of a nuclear war would be so terrible and so drastic and so overwhelming that it is not possible to prepare for those consequences because they will be final and utter. However, that is my opinion; there is a school of thought which feels that civil defence can diminish the harmful effects of a nuclear explosion in, say, the adjoining island, and that we should be prepared to take advantage of being able to diminish those effects. If that theory is correct I suppose we cannot even take the risk of ignoring it and we must have a civil defence corps. I feel that civil defence should be a matter for the Army and not a matter for part time volunteers in the first instance. The administration of it and its professionalism should come from the Army and the Army should recruit civilian volunteers and train them in Army installations.

This is primarily a defence matter and our defence forces are for the defence of our State. It is inconsistent that civil defence activity should be under local authorities. Apart from that it is unduly expensive. A lot of expense would be saved and a lot of efficiency gained if the administration of civil defence were to be taken over by the Army on a professional basis.

A further point that occurred to me when reading the Minister's speech was in regard to his reference to the Red Cross Society. I want to endorse what he has to say in praise of that society but having regard to what happened during the past year the Minister on this Estimate should have assured us that that society would not be used for any nefarious purpose so that their standing among their colleagues, among other Red Cross Societies throughout the world, and with the International Red Cross would not be harmed in any way and so that any Red Cross organisation throughout the world would know and would be satisfied to know that our Red Cross Society were above politics, above conspiracy, that they were entirely humane in their approach to their operations.

The Minister should have reassured us also that the intelligence corps of the Army was not going to be anybody's private army, that the members of the corps would be subject to the normal disciplines of an Army officer and that a very definite chain of command and procedure of reporting would be established in order to ensure that some of the things we know took place within that corps in the last year would never take place again. The consequences that could have arisen at the time these things were taking place are too terrible to contemplate. These checks and safeguards could be implemented without in any way diminishing the efficiency of that corps. Quite obviously liaison with other intelligence sources within the State will have to be looked into and improved.

A further aspect of the Army to which I want to refer is the Army Reserve. At the moment it consists of the first line reserve of ex-regular soldiers, and the second line reserve, which is the FCA. The first line reserve does not get sufficient attention. It would go a long way towards remedying the structural faults in our Army—by structural faults I mean where a battalion is not structured properly and a soldier consequently cannot get proper military training because there is no structure within which he can receive it—if the first line reserve could be used so that the call up of men for annual service could be staggered over the year, so that at all times there would be a number of reservists serving in a battalion. It would then be possible to keep up the numbers of the battalion and you would have a proper structural battalion for most of the time.

However, this can only be done provided there is a fair financial incentive given to reservists to come up at an awkward time. At the moment reservists come up during the summer holidays, and in effect it is a holiday with pay for many of them. There is no fault in that but it is not good military policy. If reservists could be encouraged to come up when required, at all times of the year, encouraged by financial incentives—there would have to be cooperation with their employers— we could go a long way towards solving some of our military problems.

The FCA is a much more difficult problem. Quite frankly it is very difficult to know how to solve the problem of the FCA. I say "solve the problem of the FCA" because the FCA at the moment is a problem. Its numbers justify a lot of military establishments but by and large the FCA is the very antithesis of what an army should be because essentially it is an indisciplined force. If there is any conflict between an FCA man and an Army matter I regret to say that the Army matter will take second place and the FCA man will win. It has not been unknown for FCA men to threaten political retribution on regular officers who have tried to enforce proper military standards on members of the FCA. The very fact that these threats have been made is bad enough, but that they have been implemented or have been heeded by political persons is entirely reprehensible. Once that spirit prevails in the FCA you cannot have a disciplined force and any military force without discipline, or discipline that can be be relied on, is wellnigh useless.

That is why I say the FCA is essentially a problem rather than an asset. I do not know what it costs but whatever the cost it is very bad value. I know that but for the presence of FCA members many installations would be unguarded, or the burden on the Army would be intolerable, or else the Garda Síochána would have to join in on this duty. I realise that and I pay tribute to the FCA men who are carrying out these duties. However, these men are the elite of their corps—what I might call the professionals—who realise that they are members of an Army and must have the standards of an Army. Apart from this handful there are many thousands who do not regard their service in the FCA as military service.

In speaking about the FCA I will mention a local matter that concerns the FCA in my area. Some time ago, I think when Deputy Boland was Minister for Defence, he decided that the Army and the FCA should be integrated. This was done and in effect we had one Army with different lines within it—regulars, first line reserve and the second line reserve. However, in theory it was one army. Following redundancy in General Textiles in Athlone many young FCA men were out of work. They were good FCA men and first-class soldiers and they wished to come into the regular Army. However, they were not allowed to do this because there was a regulation that married recruits would not be accepted.

As the Army and FCA had been integrated these men were already in the Army by virtue of their membership of the FCA. This seems so obvious and elementary that one cannot understand the refusal to admit them. They are exactly the type of recruit required to ensure a stable force. They are responsible and have shown themselves to be good soldiers in their duties since they became redundant because were it not for their presence the guarding of the installations around Athlone would have been a serious problem.

One experiences a dreadful sense of frustration when one puts up a reasonable proposition to the Department of Defence. Utter reliance on regulations, rules and red-tape are all that count, not the reality and commonsense of the situation. In the case I have mentioned, the result was that many of these men drifted off to England, they have gone to other towns, and some are still around because they have full-time military duties to perform and are being paid accordingly. These men would be first-class recruits and I would urge the Minister to look at the regulations and allow these men to come into the Army. By doing this the Minister would not break any regulation because the men are already in the FCA, and the Army authorities would be delighted to have them.

I do not know the answer to the FCA. There are some people within the FCA who like the military life and who are good members of that force but, by and large, the members are not soldiers in any sense of the word. They are prevailed upon, they are cajoled and pleaded with by their training officers to turn out for parades. The only thing that makes them turn out for parades is the danger that they will lose their summer gratuities. I do not think it is possible to have an efficient force when that is the only motive for carrying out the duties.

Prior to the FCA we had the Local Defence Force. I realise there was a national emergency at the time and that the motives for joining it were strong and altruistic. Such motives probably ensured that the standard of service and the attention given by members would be high. That was a successful force and it was organised on a local basis. Perhaps the FCA might be organised on a parish or town basis so that instead of having an anonymous Army number on the FCA unit it would have the title of its local region. We know how strong local loyalty can be in building up an effective unit. This has been obvious in the British Army where there was never any recruiting difficulty in certain regiments that had strong local ties. If the FCA were organised on a local basis we would get a better type of volunteer and we would have a more efficient force. We would not have a force which at the moment is basically indisciplined and that only turns up for parades because there are a few pounds going at the summer camp later in the year. The FCA could be a valuable force. It is an expensive force and I would urge the Minister to examine the matter and see how the potential can best be used in assisting the regular Army in its functions.

I would submit that I have demonstrated in what I have said that the morale of the Army is at a low ebb and that I have given adequate reasons why this is so. The heartening thing is that none of these reasons is really serious. They are all essentially minor matters that could be rectified quite easily. The transport system in the Army should be modernised and steps taken to ensure that it is adequate. Attention should be paid to the means of communication in terms of wireless sets; the Army, should not have to rely, as they do at the moment, on commercial radios like the type used by taxicabs and veterinary surgeons, because there is no security in that. Proper combat uniforms should be provided; we should get away from the present situation where uniforms are swopped around between the men because there are not enough. Promotion in the officer corps should be by merit and not by seniority and a proper form of resettlement scheme should be devised for officers, NCOs. and men.

Fatigue duties should be eliminated so that when a man joins to become a soldier he will carry out military duties and not fatigues. The Minister revealed to me some months ago that 52 members of our Defence Forces are engaged as orderlies in the homes of married officers. If the Colonel's wife wants domestic help let her employ it and let us amend the Defence Force regulations immediately so that when men join the Army they will be soldiers and not act as domestic help. The answer is given that they are there to maintain Army property. One would be surprised if persons of exalted rank were so complacent as to neglect the Army property which they have the privilege of living in. If these matters were attended to, the morale of our Army would be improved and we would have a professional force.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Top
Share