Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Mar 1971

Vol. 252 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42: Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1971, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and of certain other services administered by that Office, and for payment of a Grant-in-Aid.

—(Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.)

Mr. Cott

I was speaking of the need for advanced planning. I mentioned that in Britain within the next two years the number of daily telephone calls is expected to increase by 50 per cent over the 1970 figure of 27 million. The number of telephones is expected to increase by 50 per cent up to 18 million. This is to happen within the next two years. In this country applications for telephones increased by 17 per cent between 1969 and 1970. The waiting list last year was over 14,000 people. I dread to think what the situation will be in another year or two. The facilities at the moment are not able to cater for the number of telephones in use throughout the country. The existing trunk line service is greatly overloaded. The exchanges here are not alone overloaded but antique in action. This is due to low investment in the past. The bulk of the equipment is of a type which was first produced in America in the early 1900s. If we are to remedy the situation we will have to instal ultra-modern machines. The electro-mechanical cross-bar type is now used extensively in Britain. The answer to our problems may be coded modulation. Such a system enables 24 conversations to be held simultaneously over two single lines. If such a system were introduced it would greatly lessen the overcrowding which exists on the circuits at the moment.

Here in Dublin one has to spend half an hour dialling continuously trying to get through to a particular number. The position is much worse if one is trying to get a West of Ireland number. Sometimes they are totally inadequate. If we were to introduce some form of electronic exchange these calls could be re-routed to avoid congestion, breaks and the like. Capital investment needed here is very high and our resources very limited but I urge the Minister to plan quite a few years ahead. We can do this gradually. If we are starting new exchanges or converting exchanges it will help to lessen the burden. Our planning has been piecemeal when we are supposed to be modernising a small branch line, for example, we find the equipment being used is completely out of date. This situation should be remedied. We cannot afford expensive research facilities, nor does the size of our system warrant it, but we can benefit from research in Britain, America and Japan which are highly modernised.

I believe that French technicians are being brought to this country to work here. This is a very poor reflection on the Department because I know many of our own technicians abroad would very much like to come home but cannot get employment with the Department because of the present recruiting system. This must be changed and we must also send our technicians abroad for advanced training. Unless we do this we are only throwing away money in piecemeal development.

I should like to ask the Minister to extend the programme for the erection of kiosks in rural areas and in high population centres. In replying to many Parliamentary questions the Minister has pointed out that there was a phone within a mile or two of the particular area in which I was interested. The Minister must admit that a mile or two is a very long distance in an emergency. There should be no village without a public kiosk.

I do not intend to dwell very long on Radio Telefís Éireann about which much has already been said but I want to ask the Minister what are the prospects of erecting television boosters so that people in the west and south may receive BBC broadcasts. It is inequitable that people on the east coast and in the midlands, for the same licence fee should have a much better service than those who are unfortunate in their geographical location in the west and south. Instead of introducing colour television, which few can afford, I suggest the Minister should instead extend the present range of service. There has been much criticism of the importation of canned programmes from America and the criticism is completely justified; these programmes are an insult to the intelligence of ordinary men and women. Why cannot we have more Irish-based programmes? Irish artists enjoy a very high reputation abroad and surely, instead of having them working in New York and elsewhere we could avail of their services to produce first-class home-based programmes? Arrangements should be made with the Abbey to televise Irish plays for showing on the home network.

I must disagree with one of my colleagues who strongly criticised Frank Hall who is much maligned of late. This is most unfair. He is providing a very valuable service, high-lighting many social injustices, and if he upsets people at tea-time I must point out that if these people were to go around the country and visit the very high percentage of dry toilets which exist they would have reason to be upset. He is acting, one might say as a national ombudsman.

I should like to pay a brief tribute to Liam Nolan for his thoughtful and balanced programme on radio. He deals with matters of public interest and his presentation is to be commended. There has been much talk about the political bias in RTE and a few speakers made the point that the Minister should try not to exert political influence on them. I appreciate that when they come directly under his control, as they are virtually at the moment, it is hard to sit on the sideline but in the long run I think justice and fair play will always prevail. I wish the Minister a happy time in his Department and express the hope that even a few of the ideas I have put forward will bear fruit.

Dr. O'Connell

I wish to say a few words especially in regard to the whole make-up of the Department which is not the most progressive Department with due respect to the present Minister. Since he came into office I have not seen any signs of a new image of the Department or where the Minister has imprinted his own progressive image on it. I see it as an outdated Department, certainly not aware of the needs of the time or the needs of the future. If we take the attitude adopted by the Department in regard to a request for a telephone it is disturbing to find this attitude still pervading a Government Department to this day in regard to a telephone which is such a great necessity.

I know of a case of a journalist who needed a telephone very urgently. He applied almost eight months ago for a telephone. He found he would be expected to wait a considerable time. He just told me today that according to the engineer's report the cable situation had been resolved and they expected to instal the phone within the next month or two. He says: "I suppose this is something but coming eight months after my application it is hardly satisfactory." This is a journalist for the national press who requires a phone not as a luxury but as a necessity. On that basis alone I can only condemn this Department for its slow inactive attitude. I have had occasion to seek a phone and I found the Department far from helpful. I am wondering what the waiting list at the moment is for Dublin city. We are talking about the competitive age in which we live, about different industrialists requiring phones urgently because they must meet this competition. I know that any business that seeks a phone is always told there is a long waiting list. I have had to make representations on behalf of doctors to see if they could have a phone installed without delay, and there always was delay. Is this Department that deals with the installation of phones here to meet present-day needs?

I remember the case of the Department of Social Welfare, one Department which is constantly beseiged with requests, perhaps, for benefits and so on. They are in an appalling way for phones. When I put a question down to the Department of Social Welfare about this I was told the Department of Posts and Telegraphs were responsible. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs said they placed the order in 1969 with the contractor but that it would be late in 1971 before the phone would be installed. This is an astonishing situation in this age when there are firms that could supply such equipment at a phone call's notice. You could send a telex to Japan and I could guarantee that you could have in Dublin the equipment by air freight within one week. Firms in Britain, Germany and elsewhere are very anxious to supply this much-needed equipment. I see the Parliamentary Secretary for the Department of Social Welfare arriving, and I have no doubt he will concur with me when I say it is a situation that should have been tackled. It is not good enough for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to say that the contract was placed in 1969 but it would be 1971 before they could supply the much-needed equipment. It seems from the gestures of the Minister at the present time that he is not even aware of this fact. This is all the more deplorable because the Minister should be aware of the conditions existing within the Department of Social Welfare where you may ring for any time up to three hours without getting a reply. Deputies who are constantly in touch with this Department are aware of the shortcomings here and of the need for the provision of up-to-date equipment. I hope the Minister will be able to come through with an answer for me on this.

I do not see in the Minister's speech any reference to the number of people on the waiting list for phones at the end of 1970, but there were 11,000 people at the end of December, 1969. This is not good enough for a Department which calls itself progressive. It should have been obvious to those who would have been planning for the years ahead what percentage increase to expect judging from previous years. The increase was 21 per cent greater in 1968-69 than in the previous year, and the Department should have geared themselves to a similar if not a greater increase for 1970-71.

While I am on this question I might mention the telephone directory. Anyone who uses a telephone directory knows the ordinary telephone directory will not last longer than four or five months. The way it is printed and bound is appalling. If you go looking for a phone book you will find it in a terrible condition long before the half year is out, never mind the year.

This was brought to the attention of the Minister last year and the year before, and no attempt was made to improve the binding of this telephone directory. I have found in the rooms of this House three telephone directories which have pages missing already and this is only March, so I wonder what they will be like before the year is out.

Mr. P. Belton

They are not even in alphabetical order.

Dr. O'Connell

Yes, and the number of mistakes made this year are greater than last year. A very important hospital department in Jervis Street has the telephone number of a small café in Capel Street. People are not able to contact it and this café is inundated with calls which are intended for the hospital. The Post Office telephone service is important, and looking through the telephone directory I do not find the information as readily available as it should be. We are told the Department have done everything to improve this, but information on the emergency services and other services should be more clearly printed and available at the beginning of the book than it is at present. I find fault with it because I cannot find the information I require at an instant's notice. It is buried somewhere in the green section at the beginning of the book, but I cannot find it when I require it.

I am being critical because people are constantly in touch with me about the bad phone service. People are dissatisfied with the phone service in Dublin. Something has gone wrong with the system. You may find yourself very often on crossed lines. People are paying very heavily for the phone service nowadays, they are entitled to a good service but they are not getting it.

One other matter in relation to the telephone is the account. People are often inclined to put aside bills when they arrive, knowing there is a second one coming. However, "final notice" is in very small print and people do not realise it is the final notice until they are disconnected. I found myself in the position of having my phone disconnected. I did not pay my bill on time. When this happened to me in 1967 I looked at the account and found that "final notice" was in very small type. I got on to the director and asked if these words could be printed diagonally across the card.

Now, in 1971, that is still not done. I found that a number of business houses who inadvertently overlooked paying their accounts had their telephones disconnected. I can appreciate that it would not be feasible to have people telephoning from the telephone exchange to tell a subscriber that his bill has not been paid. In my case, I was very annoyed because patients were trying to get in touch with me and this caused some embarrassment. Perhaps I am seeking the ideal situation but I think that a subscriber who has had a telephone for a number of years but who overlooks paying his account on one occasion should be telephoned and reminded of his account and asked whether he wishes to have the telephone disconnected. At least, some alternative to the present system should be found. The final notice should be printed in bold red type.

We have to deal each year with a different Minister. I do not know who will be in the Department next. I often look on this Department as a training ground for Ministers.

Mr. P. Belton

Perhaps the Deputy himself will be in the Department.

Dr. O'Connell

It is one of the Departments that I would like to shake up.

Mr. G. Collins

The Deputy would need to inform himself first.

Dr. O'Connell

Certainly, I should like to rectify some of the defects in the system. A Minister who would have any vision or imagination would devote himself to shaking up this Department. I would like to see the Minister making his mark in this Department because there is so much to be done. He should not be led by the Establishment but should insist on the defects being remedied. Too often we find Ministers in charge of Departments who are not imaginative and who have no vision or drive. I had high hopes for the present Minister but I have read his speech and there is nothing in it but a rehashing of the speeches of previous Ministers. In my estimation, the Minister has fallen down considerably. Unfortunately, when we do not have men of initiative and drive in Ministerial office, we do not get the work done. I had envisaged the Minister bringing forward proposals for turning this Department into a semi-State corporation, a corporation of which every branch would be improved but there has been no evidence of this.

I should like to discuss the question of a post office for Ballyfermot. I have asked time and again that a post office be provided there. In this area there is a community of about 45,000 people but they are being treated very shabbily by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. There is a small grocery shop there which houses a small post office. It is not possible to send a telegram from that office and certain other facilities are not available there either. Despite the efforts that I have made on numerous occasions to have a post office provided in this area, this has not been done. In November, 1969, I asked for the establishment of a branch post office at Ballyfermot but the Minister told me it would not be justified. He said that a full range of postal counter services were available in the two sub-post offices in the area and that these were adequate to deal with the business normally transacted. Although Ballyfermot is bigger than Waterford city, which has three post offices, we have not one proper post office there.

I do not know what is the reason for not providing a post office in this area. As far back as 1957 the then Minister, Deputy Blaney, initiated an investigation into the matter. As a result of that investigation, he told us that facilities were not adequate but nothing has been done since. The then Minister said that the congestion was caused by a temporary shortage of staff and that steps were being taken to avoid a recurrence.

I do not know whether the present Minister knows where Ballyfermot is situated but I would expect him to know and I would expect him to know also where the sub-post office is situated. Undoubtedly, the services are far from being adequate and it is not good enough that the population of Ballyfermot should be deprived of proper Post Office facilities. In 1969 I said that Ballyfermot had a population equal to that of Waterford City but it is now greater than that of Waterford city. There are constant queues of people outside the sub-post office. I went there myself recently to recheck on the situation and I found a long queue of people there. If they wish to send a telegram they must use the public telephone and this can cause much inconvenience.

Mr. P. Belton

There are 45,000 people in Coolock and Post Office facilities are available only from a caravan.

Dr. O'Connell

When I raised this matter on the Adjournment at one stage the Minister was surprised that I should do so and he expressed the view that I was abusing the privileges of the House. He said that, from what he could learn, the people of Ballyfermot were not dissatisfied with the situation there in regard to Post Office facilities. However, in a recent issue of a magazine that is circulated among the community, one resident is reported as having said that when he saw a building being constructed in the area, by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs he was very pleased because he thought it was a new post office but, however, he was very disappointed to find that the building was to be used only as a sorting office for Ballyfermot. When I raised this matter on the Adjournment of the House the Minister told me also that he had checked within his Department but had found no records of requests from tenants' associations for these facilities. He said that the facilities in the post office there were overtaxed only on days on which children's allowances were paid but he said the same difficulties arise in many other post offices. The former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Lalor, said that he was aware of Ballyfermot and that he knew the area. However, he seems to have overlooked one point. He was suggesting what the people in Ballyfermot should do if they wanted to send a telegram. This is interesting. He suggested that they should call into the post office, count the words on the telegram, find out what it would cost, get the change, and go outside and put the money in the phone box. If that is an example of the facilities provided by the Post Office it is deplorable.

He also said something about having an investigation made into it and that he would check on it. He said there were means of checking on the number of telegrams sent from this coin box and that the indications were that not many telegrams were sent from Ballyfermot. I do not know how you could check on the number of telegrams sent from a coin box. The Minister said he had looked into it. He said that in coin box telephones in kiosks every telegram sent is recorded on a slip and that there was no problem for his officials in supplying him with that information. He said that the facilities were available to him but he did not say if any investigation was made into the number of telegrams sent. I should like to have that information.

He said that as far as he could as-certain there was no demand for this service but it is constantly being brought up by the community association. All the residents in the area want it. I live on the edge of this area. Were I attempting to send a telegram from a post office this is the one I would go to. These facilities are not available. What is wrong with Ballyfermot that we are left out? The Minister said that if a further investigation of the use being made of coin boxes for the purpose of sending telegrams showed a need for this facility, there was no problem about providing the service. I want to ask the Minister now has an investigation been made? If so, what was the result? If there is a need, will he meet it?

I should like to discuss the recent increase in postage rates. We were duped by the Department. A 50 per cent increase was granted without proper notification. We then had a further increase to the equivalent of 10d on Decimal Day. The Minister said that the postal services are losing money. At the moment the Minister is destroying the postal services. He is also making it more and more difficult for small businesses to survive. He is making it difficult for the normal person to use the postal services since a stamp for a letter costs 10d. This is the highest rate in Europe. Having regard to all other factors including the cost of living, we are way ahead of any other country in Europe. It is more expensive to send a letter from Dublin to Galway than it is to send a letter from London to Manchester. I do not see why there should be such an exorbitant charge for posting an ordinary letter. We are making it more and more difficult for people to use the postal services.

If this demand for higher and higher rates for the postal service continues it will be priced out of existence. I do not know why the Minister is attempting to do this. If a business firm keep raising their prices they will have to close down finally, and that is what will happen to this section of the Department, with disastrous results. At Christmas a determined effort was made by the public to resist these increases. This effort had its effect and there was a reduction in the number of Christmas cards sent. The Department were very slow to reveal the figures but it was obvious that there was a considerable drop at Christmas. The public should keep up this pressure throughout the year in an attempt to force the Minister to bring down prices to a realistic level. We are not getting the service we expect. If a letter costs the equivalent of 10d we should get a proper service. If the service needs to be streamlined this should be done immediately. After improving the service it should be possible to post an ordinary letter for approximately 7d or 8d. We now see the second-class postage rate being used for private and confidential letters. This is dangerous.

I would have thought that the Post Office must make money. The Department should consider ways and means of expanding the money order and the postal order services and other ancillary services. This would enable the Post Office to enter into competition with the banks. People who have money on deposit in the Post Office should be issued with books of money orders or postal orders for a certain amount so that they could use the Post Office as a cheque book service. In the States the private banks operate what is called a checking service. You put your money in the bank and you have a checking account, not a current account. If the ordinary person put his money into the Post Office and used it as a checking service, the Post Office could make a considerable amount of money. They could enter into competition with the banks, and they should. Instead of going to the banks for a draft people could go to the Post Office. They would be encouraged to put their money on deposit in the Post Office if this system was employed.

We were very slow in not availing of the bank Giro system for the Post Office. We should not have handed it over to the banks. In the case of a Government service a Government Department should deal with it. We should not have been put off by the fact that it was said in Britain that this system was no good. In other parts of Europe it has worked admirably and there is no reason why it should not work here. The Minister is a man of imagination and vision. He might consider introducing this system into the Post Office. If he did, one section could make up for the deficiencies of another. The postal order and money order services could be expanded tremendously and this could offset losses in the postal services. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs are encouraging more and more people to save through the Post Office. I have seen two of their one shilling machines, but I should like them to encourage more group savings schemes in factories. Would it not be much better for people to use the Post Office deposit section for paying off debts rather than handing the job to private individuals who take over the payments for householders in many parts of the city? This kind of thing would be of tremendous service to the community and would bring more and more revenue into the Department.

The Minister said that the Devlin Report in relation to his Department was being carefully studied. I should like to know the outcome of the study and what the Minister will decide to do.

Television reception in city areas like Ballyfermot and Drimnagh is very poor. I know this is not the fault of RTE but when people pay licence fees they are entitled to a service. When the voltage drops it should be the responsibility of RTE to see that it is corrected. Some people are without television from 6 p.m. and from what I understand it is due to excessive demands on the ESB supply.

RTE are maturing. We are getting well-balanced programmes. I should like to comment on a "Seven Days" programme which was broadcast last week. I think I can justifiably say that it was inaccurate and not properly re-searched. It portrayed life in Ballyfermot and it aroused the anger of the people there because this community, like any other working class community does not like a stigma attached to it. A stigma will be on the children of the people of Ballyfermot as a result of this programme. The programme portrayed the youth of Ballyfermot as a cider drinking community.

When I heard this programme was to be broadcast I rang up the authority and asked if they wanted any information on Ballyfermot. I live in Ballyfermot and I know it very well. They did not, however, contact me. I think they should have contacted the public representatives who work in the area. They put the programme on without consulting the people concerned and they have done a great deal of harm. If anyone from Ballyfermot applies for a job the chances of getting it, if he is in competition with people from other areas, is not good, because a stigma is attached to the youth of this area. It takes years to eradicate this kind of thing. Certain sections of this city like Cabra and Drumcondra have had a stigma for years. RTE have done untold harm to the people in this area and I do not think they have a right to do this. I have seen instances of cider drinking in various parts of the city but knowing the community of Ballyfermot as I do I would deplore this type of presentation, which has a very traumatic effect. People say to me now: "That is a right area you serve." I have no hesitation in indicating the personnel of "Seven Days" for this programme.

I listen to the radio from early each morning and I am much impressed with the standard of broadcasting. Radio Éireann involve many people, from many different parts of the country, in their programmes. Such programmes will encourage people to take an interest in community life and community development in their local areas. The Liam Nolan hour is the most popular radio programme today. This man has done some magnificent work. He has espoused many good causes. It is a pity that he is not being given an opportunity to do the same thing on television. People are asking why he is not being given an opportunity to do so and certainly I for one would like to know why he is not. A man with his talents should not be deprived of an opportunity of appearing on television. I hope the authority will take this into account.

The "Late Late Show" is a very controversial programme. It serves a very good purpose in Irish life today. It gives many sectors of the community an opportunity to voice their views. Some people say it is a mini-Dáil and in many ways it has done much more than this House in portraying various aspects of life and showing up injustices. When the farmers discussed their problems on television they rightly said that they were being given an opportunity on television to discuss agriculture which had not been given in this House. That point was very well taken.

I should not like to see any attempt made to curtail or subdue this programme even if it does at times speak out on issues which are not popular. What does it matter if people get annoyed? Different people get annoyed on the "Late, Late Show" each week. The programme serves a very useful purpose in that it interests the whole community in various aspects of life. Certainly I did not know of some of the problems affecting sections of the community until I watched the "Late, Late Show".

I understand that under the new Broadcasting Bill an attempt may be made to curtail this and other programmes which speak out very forcefully on issues. If we are to be deprived of programmes like the "Late, Late Show" freedom of thought will be abolished, and this is dangerous.

On the question of Irish I hold a view which may not be very popular. While I was at school all subjects were taught through the medium of Irish— even Latin, science and physics. There were not Irish translations for some of the scientific terms and in these cases our teachers had to coin the Irish words we used. Perhaps it was the compulsory approach that made me antagonistic towards Irish and I realise now that this is a pity. It will take a long time to overcome this inbuilt antagonism. Telefís Éireann must remember that many people share this feeling of antagonism and the approach they adopt to this matter must be gradual. They must not try to bombard us with programmes in Irish because in this way they may stiffen the antagonism that many people have.

Many people who can speak Irish find that they cannot follow the Irish news bulletin on television each evening at 7.55 p.m. I can speak Irish but I cannot follow the news. It may be that the announcer is speaking too rapidly and those of us who are not fluent in the language cannot understand what he is saying. The authority might consider this matter with a view to encouraging people to listen to the news bulletins in Irish.

I should like to see the "Buntús Cainte" programme continued. The programme was popular with those who did not know much Irish. In many cases the lack of knowledge of Irish on the part of parents meant that they developed an inferiority complex when they could not answer questions put to them by their children. Consideration might have been given to the presentation of a morning programme on the Irish language on Telefís Éireann. In this way parents could learn the language and be of help to their children. A morning programme giving some basic fundamental knowledge of Irish would serve a useful purpose and would go a long way towards restoring a love of the language.

As politicians, it is natural that we would wish to see more political programmes on television. Telefís Éireann may say that there is not a great demand but I have found even at medical meetings or other discussion groups that the main subject of conversation is politics. People may not like politicians but they are vitally interested in politics and we should have more political programmes on television. Programmes setting out what happens in the Dáil and giving details of the Bills and other matters that come before us would be of interest to many people and would be valuable to young people from an educational point of view. I am sure other Deputies will agree with me when I mention that young people who visit Leinster House are extremely interested in the proceedings of the Dáil. I have addressed meetings of schoolchildren and invariably they ask many questions about our Parliament. Telefís Éireann have an important role to play in providing educational programmes on this subject.

In the country the radio is still very popular and the programme "Today in the Dáil" is listened to by very many people. It may not be so popular in the city where television is the favourite medium. Having regard to this, more background work on a political programme for television might serve a useful purpose.

I am glad to see that advertising of cigarettes will cease as from 1st April. The advertisements still appear in the newspapers but the impact of television is much more considerable. I am afraid much damage was done when cigarette advertisements appeared on the screen. I consider we were justified in pleading with the Minister to have these advertisements banned. Television advertising has a powerful impact and we must be careful to ensure that proper standards are maintained. Originally a body was set up to ensure that a certain standard was maintained and that incorrect information was not given in advertisements.

The association between drink and leisure is not good. Advertising of alcoholic beverages does much harm in so far as drink is portrayed as the "in" thing. We are encouraging our young people to drink at a time when alcoholism is a major problem in the country. I do not think the taxpayers would object to making a greater contribution towards RTE if they knew that drink advertising would be phased out, as has happened in the case of cigarette advertising. None of us wants his children to grow up thinking that alcohol is a necessity. It is not right to encourage it. The law is lax in that no proper checks are made to ensure that people under age do not obtain drink in public houses. Is it any wonder they seek after it when they are told in advertisements on television that it is the right thing to do? Those under age follow the advice and the example given in television advertising. It is no use imposing regulations and making laws to prohibit certain age groups from obtaining alcoholic liquor when they are encouraged by television to do exactly this. What is the use of saying that smoking kills your taste for life when immediately afterwards cigarettes are advertised in association with athletic prowess? The Department of Health is not doing its duty when it does not demand a complete ban on this kind of advertising.

We have to face the fact that we must pay for television. It is no good the Minister saying television must be self-supporting. It is a very important medium of communication. The sooner we face the fact that the Exchequer must come to the help of television the better it will be. Money must be provided for proper programmes. Penny-pinching is quite wrong. The sooner we realise that, the better. Television must be allowed to expand. Talking in terms of cutting back is a very pusillanimous approach. If licences are not increased then money must be made available from the Exchequer to subsidise television. Recently it was stated certain programmes would be dropped and staff would become redundant. This is not the right approach. We must get our priorities right and make money available to Telefís Éireann. With the limited resources they have they have produced some magnificant programmes. Programmes on current affairs have been excellent. They operate on a shoestring compared with Britain and other countries. We all say we do not want canned stuff and that more home-produced programmes are essential but, unless we are prepared to provide the money for them, we will not get them. This is something we should bear in mind.

The Minister said colour television will not be available for some years. I am not very enthusastic about the idea of colour television. I suppose we must move with the times but we should wait and learn from the mistakes and the research in other countries before we launch out into colour television. I should like to see more involvement of the people in the country in television programmes. Such involvement is very important. Television should not be Dublin orientated. It is not good to have it too centralised. I should like to see the people in Mayo, in Donegal, in Cork and Kerry regularly involved in television programmes. Their opinions are important. They should certainly be involved more in current affairs programmes.

Advertising on television is dangerous. I believe it raises the cost of living and contributes to inflation. Competitors will spend more and more on advertising thereby increasing the cost of the products they produce. People are encouraged to buy luxuries. That can have a harmful effect on the economy generally. Perhaps it is the reason why our hire purchase debt is so high. We should remember this and have another look at advertising on television. Attractive advertising encourages people to go into debt. Hire purchase can be quite an evil and a menace to those who cannot afford it. At the moment I am trying to rescue a man who is being sent to prison for non-payment of a hire purchase debt. He was encouraged to invest in certain articles through television advertising. The articles were repossessed and now the father must go to prison for non-payment of a debt. The Minister for Justice will say that it is for contempt of court, but the fact remains that television advertising has contributed to this situation. That is not a good thing.

I wonder to what extent can the Minister interfere in television. How much pressure can Ministers apply to have their own speeches reported so fully?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

If the Deputy will allow me to interrupt for a moment. At Question Time I gave notice of my intention to raise a question on the Adjournment with the Minister for Lands. I now wish to withdraw that notice as the Minister and I, after prolonged phone calls, have satisfactorily concluded the matter and there is no need for me to raise it on the Adjournment.

Mr. M. O'Leary

The Deputy for Laois-Offaly is not slumbering.

Dr. O'Connell

The Deputy knows how to approach Ministers.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 23rd March, 1971.