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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 May 1971

Vol. 253 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Financial Resolution No. 8: General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(Minister for Finance.)

As I suggested last night, the theme song of this Budget is contained in three sentences towards the end of the Budget Statement. Unfortunately, that theme song is a deliberate piece of prevarication. The Minister said:

The concessions and the tax increases which I have announced bring revenue and current expenditure into balance at £551 million which is £61 million or 12½ per cent greater than the outturn in 1970-71.

As I said last night, this is the oldest trick in the bag. It is not worth a tráinín. The Minister went on to say:

My main concern has been to arrest the strong upward trend of current expenditure in recent years and to minimise additional taxation in the interest of safeguarding the National Pay Agreement.

He has not arrested the strong upward trend of Government expenditure in recent years. I will give the details. The Minister also said:

I have now completed the budgetary presentation for 1971. Its main purpose is to retard the rate of inflation which has depressed the economy in recent years.

He does not say "to put a stop to the rate of inflation". He talks about retarding it but, of course, he does not do anything of the sort. A great song and dance has been made—and obviously there has been a hand-out about it within the Fianna Fáil Party —about the fact that the Government took £70 million out of the Estimates. We know nothing about this. We do not know what the Government did behind the scenes. What we do know is quite a simple thing. The figure the Minister gives us for gross current expenditure is £551 million. What was the figure at this time last year, which is the only figure with which it should be compared? The figure at this time last year was £446 million. It is up £105 million, or 24 per cent. If the Minister objects to that calculation I will go back to the estimates volume. We could make all kinds of calculations. The estimates volume shows on the face of it £423 million for current expenditure. Last year the comparable figure was £351 million, an increase of £72 million or 20 per cent. Whatever way we look at it we get this figure of over 20 per cent.

The Minister need not believe me. He can take the Central Bank Report in which it is stated that in recent years Government expenditure has been going up at the rate of 18 per cent per annum. They go on to say that the rate of increase in Government expenditure, current and capital combined, has over the past three years averaged at 18 per cent per annum. They then proceed to compare it with the GNP, this piece of nonsense on which I have so often dilated. This explains why the Government are so keen on having higher and higher taxation. They can go on with the pretence that there is an increase in the income of the people. The statement that there was a 1½ per cent increase in total output last year is a piece of nonsense of the first order. Far from there being any increase in the economy, there has been a decided decline and that in spite of the increase of 7½ per cent given to public servants on 1st July last and 10 per cent on 1st January, 1971. I shall revert later to what the Taoiseach said on television last Saturday night.

It is a sorry state of affairs that an attempt should be made to put across this kind of thing on the people. To compare the out-turn at 31st March, 1971 with the situation six weeks later is absurd. Let me give one example of where Supplementary Estimates come in. The Supplementary Estimates for 1969-70 amounted to approximately £39 million. Until I looked at the Book of Estimates last night I was convinced that the Supplementary Estimates for 1970-71 were less. In fact, I found, they were £44 million. Am I to understand that we shall have Supplementary Estimates in the coming year for £50 million? The record looks like that. It has been said recently about a famous politician in Britain: "You always knew what he was going to do because he did the opposite to what he said". There has been considerable comment on this recently.

On the basis of my figures, the increase in Government expenditure as of now compared with this time last year is between 20 per cent to 24 per cent. The Minister said in his Budget Speech that it was 12½ per cent. There has been an attempt to compare things that are not comparable and there has been a systematic effort to put across throughout the country the idea that the Government cut expenditure this year. On the contrary, expenditure has escalated and there has been a bigger increase than in previous years.

We had one example today in answer to a question. In December, 1970, we voted £3.2 million extra for CIE. We hear much about the firm of McKinsey and Company, beloved of the Government. I do not know what advice McKinsey can give that any intelligent person who has been applying his mind to the problem inside CIE could not give the Government. The idea that we will get the answer to our problems by importing Americans or people from England is utter rubbish. There is the same figure in the Book of Estimates this year— £2.6 million—as was in the Estimates last year. In December we had to add £3.2 million. Next December will it be necessary for us to add £5 million to the amount? Obviously something is wrong if the Government brought in this firm and paid them £7,500 per month. What these people did I do not know. I shall revert to this later in connection with the Taoiseach's television appearance last Saturday.

In regard to the question of taxation, there has been a deliberate effort by the Government this year to impose regressive taxation. As I said yesterday, it is extraordinary to find the Government taking back a small concession made last year in connection with income tax—to the best of my recollection, it was the first concession ever given since the coming into operation in 1959 of PAYE. Despite the fantastic fall in the value of money, no concession whatever had been given to people liable for income tax until last year when everybody got £10. That amount is now being taken back. The people who will be hardest hit are not those earning £7,000 per year like the Minister; the people most affected will be those who are earning £700 a year.

When the Taoiseach spoke on television he wondered what we could put in its place. I would put one thing in its place: I would see that the big farmers were subject to income tax. Last night Deputy Hogan O'Higgins very properly said that we would be surprised how poor the farmers' incomes would prove to be. That may be so, but the Deputy did not say she was in favour of applying the income tax code to them. There are many farmers who run five or six racehorses and the poorer chaps who might only be able to run two horses. It is too bad that instead of having 20 racehorses these people can only afford to run a dozen or so.

We must be realistic about this. What is the income today of a typical County Meath farmer who has 200 acres of land? I am not talking of the exceptional people who have 500 acres or 1,000 acres of land. For the farmer with 200 acres, the figure is £30 per acre. The owner of 200 acres of good land in Meath is infinitely better off that a Supreme Court Judge. This applies also to other parts of Ireland where the land is good—North Kildare, South Tipperary, County Limerick and a large part of the Golden Vale.

The withdrawal of the concession made last year in relation to income tax is much worse than it looks because the value of money has declined at least 10 per cent in the past 12 months. I have here a letter which I received from a pensioner which tells the whole story. The man who wrote it, like many people in the country, must have an exaggerated idea of the influence of Deputies in this House. The latter stated:

... Perhaps you would use your kind influence for a moderation in the scale of income tax for pensioners in the forthcoming Budget debate. We got a long awaited rise a few weeks ago and now they demand in my case £99.95.

In other words, this gentleman is precise. He could have said that the demand was for £100 but he chose to say that it was for £99.95. He continues:

Income, £758.

That is not a very big pension. He continues:

Personal allowance, £249; earned income allowance, £190; taxable income, £319.

Of course, he calculated £100 at 2s 3d in the £ but that has been taken away. That amounted to £23.3 and the balance at 35 per cent which amounted to £76.65 making a total of £99.95. In round figures this amounts to £109.95. He concludes:

Surely this is an abnormal demand from a pension so newly received and from a pensioner in any case. If you would press for a reduction in the 35 per cent, it would be a great relief. Thanking you....

What a hope there is of getting any reduction in the 35 per cent when the modest concession given by the Government last year is now being taken away. One could ask and, indeed, many people have asked, why the Government increased taxation on beer and spirits, particularly on beer? When the price of the pint was much less than what it is today, there was a senior politician in this House who used always say "You cannot touch the pint" but the present Government have not only touched it, they have submerged it.

Since cigarettes have a bad effect on smokers, why did not the Government put an extra couple of pence on the packet of cigarettes? The Government have been taking action which indicates their belief in the medical evidence to the effect that cigarettes are bad for the health but I am afraid that when it comes to a question of revenue, their conscience ceases to exist. Revenue from cigarettes has been on the decline and, therefore, the Government had no intention of risking a further loss in revenue so that health had to take a poor second.

During the past five years the Government have borrowed £100 million abroad. There was a time when Fianna Fáil hung out the sign of the pawnbroker in this city because of internal loans but now they have gone to the other extreme. Of course, when they could not borrow themselves they got the semi-State bodies such as the ESB and Aer Lingus to do so. We are now on the verge of the day when everything that can possibly be borrowed by the Government, both at home and abroad, will only be sufficient to service the existing public debt. That stage will be reached in 12 months time. Unless my recollection is at fault, the provision for borrowing is £127 million. The servicing of the public debt this year is £113 million. In spite of continuing inflation the Government have now reached the position where they will be paying more than anything they will borrow in order to service the public debt.

In Britain it has long since been the case that there is a credit balance on the current Budget but it is a long time since we reached a different position whereby we not only do not have a balance on the current Budget but, last year, there was a deficit. In spite of the huge increases in taxation, there was an imbalance of more than £9 million on the Supplementary Budget. All this at a time when any Keynesian economist—not that I have that much regard for Keynesianism; it would have been a very different matter to have had a high opinion of the man in the thirties—but every economist worth his salt would say that Fianna Fáil got an astonishing opportunity when, owing to a combination of circumstances in this country in the early 1960s, the buoyancy of revenue was remarkable.

I want to speak about some other matters that are not related directly to the actual financial figures of the Budget. Last night I listened to all of Deputy FitzGerald's contribution and there was certainly one subject on which both sides of the House are agreed and that is that we are going to be pushed, willy-nilly, into the Common Market; also, that the Free Trade Area Agreement has not been the cause of redundancies. I should like to know how they see it that way. Deputy FitzGerald in his long explanation did admit that in so far as the boot and shoe industry is concerned, there was redundancy as a result of the importation of boots and shoes from other countries and especially from Britain. Of course, the Deputy would want to be blind not to see that. However, recently I have seen, in an institution of which Deputy FitzGerald is a director, cutlery, cups and saucers and furniture marked "Manufactured in England". Why does the Deputy not have a look at these articles?

In the Cork Examiner of 1st May, 1971 there appears the following in relation to Sunbeam Wolsey Ltd:

The problem of "dumping" was discussed by Mr. C. O. Stanley, chairman, at the annual general meeting of Sunbeam Wolsey Ltd., yesterday....

Of course, Mr. Stanley is one of the best known of our Irish industrialists.

To continue quoting:

Mr. Stanley, in the course of his address said: "The last three months of this year saw large imports of UK merchandise sold on this market at prices which could only be described as dumping, and which meant, even after the payment of duty, that garments could be offered to our customers at prices considerably below those at which we could sell profitably".

I have never heard any criticism of Sunbeam prices. In fact, I have always understood that their garments are sold at rock-bottom prices. The article continues:

And he added: "We do not expect the Government to protect inefficient industry, but we do expect it to give some protection to modern, efficient plants during times of difficult trading conditions in the United Kingdom where firms are looking for a market on which to place their surplus products".

Effects of Dumping.

Later during the meeting the chairman was asked how seriously "dumping" would affect the economy of the company and if it did, could it affect employment in the company itself.

Mr. Stanely replied: "Well, I was expecting a question like this to be asked today.

"Of course, it has affected our business in the last year but the real problem is the year we are now in. Undoubtedly dumping has taken place to an extent that was never anticipated, but having happened the real problem is that it takes the Government such a long time to take any action to stop it."

The Cork Examiner puts the following in heavy type:

It is now already too late but even at this late date, it has taken the Government such a length of time that the damage has all been done and neither I nor anybody else can possibly say how seriously it is going to affect our present year's figure.

Here you have Mr. Stanley, than whom there is no brighter industrialist in the country, saying he does not know how it will affect his company, the company that had the best export record a couple of years ago of any company in the country. When Deputy FitzGerald was speaking yesterday about Clara I do not think he had seen the evening papers. I did not like to interrupt him too much. I thought I was helping him along with the speech, making suggestions here and there, some of which he did not particularly appreciate.

The Deputy was not surprised?

I think it is good to educate the young. I do not believe that if Deputy FitzGerald had seen the evening paper he could have refrained from mentioning that Ranks had closed their mill in Clara, that forty men are to be put out of work immediately out of sixty. It is a pity that Deputy Connolly is not here or Deputy Cowen. It was Deputy Cowen really who during the debate here in Private Members Time said that there were no unhappy people in Clara. At that time I had said that it was the breaking up of a local economy. This idea will get across all the more strongly now to the people of Clara when they see what is I suppose the only other worthwhile industry in the town folding up.

I want to mention what we heard from Fianna Fáil Deputies who have spoken so far in the debate on the Budget. Generally speaking, they said that as usual the Budget helped social welfare recipients. The song was a bit more muted this year and we all know the reason. I want to speak about the future and to ask why was compensation not given to recipients of children's allowances for the fall in the value of money. As I have frequently pointed out, we have by far the lowest rate of children's allowances in western Europe. They are one group of social welfare recipients.

The Galway conference will bring it lower.

Bring what lower?

The children per family.

If the Deputy wants me to talk about that——

The Chair does not wish the Deputy to pursue that topic.

The Chair should have rebuked my good cousin on the far side of the House. This is the policy of Fianna Fáil. They never increased children's allowances until the elections of 1969 were moving up and they realised that they would be in trouble if they did not do so. Then they barely surfaced. I regard the refusal to increase children's allowances as being the same as eating the seed potatoes. I am sure Deputy Meaney will know the meaning of that. The French put it slightly differently. These allowances should be increased by 10 per cent to keep them at the miserable level at which they were. When the Minister for Social Welfare asked me a few weeks ago in the House if I would agree to a means test, unwisely, I think I said "yes". I am always inclined to say "yes" rather than "no" but it did not really matter. I should have said: "I would like to think that over". This is what the Minister for Finance always says if you ask him anything that involves any thought.

For many years we have heard so much talk about the health services that housing has been completely neglected to the extent that last year in the city of Dublin the cost of health services was about 40s in the £ on the rates and the cost of housing was 14s in the £. If any Deputy thinks about it he will quickly realise that taking his life as a whole even if he suffers a fair amount of ill health there is no comparison between the amount his housing will cost him and what his health will cost himself and his family. Because of this sort of psycho-neurotic interest in the relatively few people who are ill all the time the cost of the health services has mounted. The Minister in charge of health at present has a shocking record in every Ministry he has occupied. He pushed the price of fish through the roof when he was in charge of Fisheries; he pushed the cost of posting a letter skyhigh and now he is in charge of the health service and are the costs sky-rocketing? Would the Minister for Finance be prepared to bet that we will have a sizeable supplementary from the Department of Health before the end of this financial year?

I am tempted.

It would be no harm. There are ways of avoiding supplementary estimates. People can be told not to send in their bills: if there is money in the kitty you can send in all your bills before the 31st March but if there is no money in the kitty you must hold them back.

I think the Deputy is thinking back to the bad old days.

I am glad the Minister said that: he has reminded me of something. People are to be judged by what they do. The provision for the Office of the Minister for Finance in this year's Estimates—this is an example of stopping inflation—is £2,580,000. In the "bad old days" when I served in that Department the whole cost of the Department was about £250,000, or one-tenth as much. I shall not go back that far because it pains the Minister for obvious reasons; I shall just go back to what is in the front of the Book of Estimates. In the year 1965-66, the cost of the Department of Finance was £668,000: this year it will be £2,600,000. If he talks about putting a stop to inflation the actual expenditure in 1969-70 was £1,500,000. The Minister's method of stopping inflation is to spend £2,600,000 gross on the Department of Finance this year. Perhaps the Minister will explain what he is doing in relation to the post office service where expenditure has increased from £183,000 last year to £300,000 this year?

We are paying the higher postal charges.

They were there last year as well.

Not for the whole year.

On Decimal Day the cost of posting a letter went up from 9d to 9.6d but that does not explain an increase in expenditure from £183,000 to £300,000. The Minister must be shoving wastepaper around the place. Everyone treats the stuff that comes from Government Departments nowadays as wastepaper. I believe there is only one man in this House who reads everything that comes to him, and I will not give the Minister any prize for guessing who he is.

Does he read them all or does somebody help him?

I really could not say but he gives me the impression of being an eager beaver and I suspect he has a look at them all. He is the only man who reads all the nonsense that comes from Government Departments nowadays. This is happening throughout the community, it is part of the new GNP. Gaeltarra Éireann produced a beautifully embellished report the other day. All the semi-State bodies have gone in for them, but some of them did much better when they produced the plainest of reports. This is all part of the Americanisation of the economy.

The Minister side-tracked me but I shall return now to the question of housing. In spite of everything the Government have said, the number of local authority houses being built is well below the number built in 1957. One cannot compare the standard of houses built then with the standard of the houses being built now and certainly there can be no comparison in price. In 1957 the housing problem was solved everywhere except in Dublin. We hear from Deputy Burke about the hundreds of houses that were empty but at the most 1 per cent of the houses were empty. Is that an excessive over-supply of houses?

Can the Deputy tell me of any economy he knows of anywhere in the world which is expanding and does not have a housing problem?

I will answer the Minister quite simply: the reason we have a housing problem is that the Fianna Fáil Government did not build any houses in Dublin from 1958 to 1963.

The Deputy knows why that was.

The Minister's party was going to divert money from social welfare——

Because the Coalition had eaten the seed corn.

On the contrary, when Dr. Jim Ryan became Minister for Finance, as he was frequently reminded by the late Deputy Sweetman, he found £5 million on his desk. There will not be £5 million left when Fianna Fáil go out of office; there will not be five million halfpennies and the Minister knows that as well as I do.

In the autumn of 1965 the Minister's party destroyed the credit of this country by going round the western world looking for money. The American Government refused to lend money; the IMF lent some money; the Government then went to Germany and paid a fantastic rate for money there; and then they got a £5 million loan from Britain. If we exclude a subscription from one of the insurance companies operating in this country which was really a subscription normally given to the National Loan, the amount subscribed was £200,000 out of £5 million. The second Inter-party Government could have borrowed £50 million in London any day it wanted but we stayed at home. We did not hang out the sign of the pawnbroker, because we do not go in for that kind of dirty politics.

I want to deal now with a miniscule matter but one of serious import. On page 157 of this volume there is a provision of £10,000 for the Irish Council of the European Movement. I suppose this is the Fianna Fáil idea of putting the issue of going into Europe fairly and squarely before the people.

The Deputy knows that matters which would be the subject of an Estimate debate cannot be discussed.

It is on the Budget, and while I am not going to dilate on it, I am entitled to read it, because in recent years there has been a terrible mess about Estimates and the Chair knows as well as I do that there was never an opportunity to debate some of them.

(Cavan): Thirty were dealt with in five minutes.

The Deputy will appreciate the Chair's position if the subject matter of Estimates is introduced in the Budget debate.

This is not exactly the subject matter of an Estimate debate. If the Chair would allow me to read it out I will then comment on the political implications of this:

Contribution to the Irish Council of the European Movement (Grant-in-Aid). The Council promotes co-operation between non-governmental organisations working towards a united Europe and provides information within Ireland on European affairs with particular reference to Ireland's application for membership of the European Communities ...£10,000.

The relevant part is, "with particular reference to Ireland's application for membership of the European Communities...£10,000". This country is supposed to be a democracy but the Government are not satisfied with having huge numbers of officials—I think the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries told us that he had 11 working whole-time on our application for membership of the EEC—they give this body £10,000 as well. Would it be wrong to suggest that the anti-Common Market case should also get £10,000 so that we could hear both sides? The Labour Party are constantly being asked why they do not inform the people about this. I should like to know how it can be done. If people are not interested in politics I know of no method except by means of a subvention of this sort. The Labour Party get £5,000 for all their secretarial work.

I do not think the Deputy can reasonably claim that the anti-Common Market case does not get a great deal of publicity in the news media.

That is not the point. I do not think the news media have all that high a standing with the general run of the public. The kind of thing that needs to be done is a pamphlet by Anthony Coughlan, the kind of work Raymond Crotty did. This is what requires to be done. I myself have written one or two small pieces on and off. Talk about David and Goliath. It is a mouse against an elephant. It is the same kind of comparison. If I were a wealthy individual it would give me the greatest pleasure to take good care that the consequences of our joining Europe would be made apparent to the people.

I hear Kevin Boland is very much opposed these days to the Government's application.

That, too.

We stated plainly here last year over a whole month the case against going into the Common Market. What we are now faced with is what is the alternative if we do not go in. Might I ask the Minister how does he expect people to state the case for the alternative when they have no resources for doing the necessary research. I well remember the big banks, the top civil servants and the two main political parties and, as I said before, even an innocent bishop, or two, in favour of our going into Europe. At my old school dinner I remember the president saying that everybody who was against going into Europe was a Communist. The innocent man.

I like the Deputy's phrase—an innocent bishop.

On economic matters. That is what I am talking about. I am not talking about matters of faith and morals now. I am talking about economic matters.

Yesterday, in reply to certain questions, the Minister evaded replying to questions that I thought fair enough. He genuinely evaded replying to questions about interest rates. It is no use the Minister trying to pretend to me that building societies rates of interest are not related to the bank rate. Rates of interest are going down everywhere. We here, in our free enterprise economy, believe we have got to regulate things and we are now busily regulating them in the wrong way. Of all bad forms of regulation the very worst is high interest rates. It is worse than high income tax.

I want to come now to a matter that really shocked me. I refer to the Taoiseach's statement on television last Saturday night. The message he gave was the same as that in the Minister's Budget speech. I took down certain phrases. The speech was a political diatribe. There was not a sensible word in the whole of it. Let me give a few examples: "The criticism of the Opposition is like a long-playing record." The only long-playing record in this Budget is the fact that it has slowed down the pace of inflation. That is the long-playing record. It is like a broken record; when the needle hits the broken part there is a click; the sense is upset.

Another phrase was: "These measures are designed to slow down the pace of inflation." What measures? Is it the measure which has put up expenditure in the Department of Finance from £1,500,000 to £2,500,000 this year? Is that designed to slow down the pace of inflation? This is the Department in which total expenditure five or six years ago was £600,000. It is a well-known fact that if you want to economise you must commence at home.

Again, we had the phrase: "This Budget places the burden on those most able to bear it." By making the man with £700 a year pay as much of an increase in his income tax as the man with £7,000 or £10,000 a year. "These speakers"—that is, the critical speakers—"always fail to tell as where this excess occurs." If I could arrange a special occasion here on which I could go right through the Estimates I could take tens of millions of pounds off them and they would be forgotten the next week.

"Fairytale myths we know them to be." What the Taoiseach had to say to us was not a fairytale myth. It was pure parish pump politics. He talked, too, about the "necessary improvement in social services". Improvement, my foot. The social services in this country as from 1st August next, by which time they will have deteriorated more in real terms, will be down at least 15 per cent on what they were last year and there will be compensation only for a while.

The Taoiseach also told us on Saturday night that the measures in the Budget were designed to slow down the pace of inflation. One gets different figures by considering different things, but I am prepared to compound for the 18 per cent—18 per cent in 1969-70, 18 per cent in 1970-71 and a median figure this year of 22 per cent in 1971-72. Slowing down the pace of inflation means for Fianna Fáil that expenditure is up only 22 per cent this year as against 18 per cent last year and 18 per cent the year before: 18+18=36 and 36+22=58, a 58 per cent increase in two to three years. That is not bad going.

The Minister would not tell us how many people are now in the income tax paying scale. Let me explain why he would not tell us. The information is, of course, available to the Revenue Commissioners. It would have demonstrated that almost every person who works, leaving out the farmers who are free of income tax, pays income tax and the figure would be close to 700,000 persons. It does not matter whether it is an unfortunate woman working in a laundry. As a boy, I always thought these women looked wretched when they came out of work. Perhaps it was the steam. Perhaps conditions are better now. Every person who works must be paying income tax. This is an utter absurdity. It is a ludicrous position. These are people whom we would not have dreamt of asking to pay income tax in 1939. I thought it a great joke when a former leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, our present President, said in the early 1950s: "It would be grand if we could only get back to 1939." It would be grand if we could get back in relation to income tax to the real terms of 1939. I am not pleading for the well-off sections of the community. I am pleading for the hundreds of thousands of people who have been brought into the income tax paying class—a complete absurdity. Almost every person in this country pays tax with the probable exception of youngsters who have just left the national school and are paid £4 to £5 a week here in Dublin or in country towns, whatever number of these there are.

In spite of the position of women workers about whom Deputy FitzGerald spoke yesterday——

What about the widows?

With due respects to Deputy Burke I have already dealt with them. I do not think the Deputy had his mind on the job. I have said that they have merely been compensated for the fall in the value of money. There is no improvement. There is no improvement in the old age pensions either. Before the Deputy came in I referred to my favourite subject—the future. Why have the Government such an awful edge on small children? Old age pensioners are good hands at talking out for themselves. They are not afraid to talk out. They would never have survived to the age of 70 without being a bit tough, like Deputy Burke and myself. I was talking about small children in big families. There are many large families in my constituency and their conditions are really appalling.

This is not a Budget at all. There are a few little bits and pieces in it that might be footnotes to a proper Budget. The worst thing of all about it is the taking away of the small concession that was given last year to the income tax payers. It is outrageous that the Government could not even stand over that.

I want to refer to certain matters mentioned by Deputy FitzGerald yesterday. I am just as keen that there should be equal pay for men and women doing the same work as Deputy FitzGerald is and I agree with his social analysis that if women were paid better there would be more employment for men in this country.

Deputy FitzGerald made a great song and dance about the projection of the Third Programme not being attained. I have not got the same faith in programmes that Deputy FitzGerald has. I have not got the same faith in the arithmetical economist that he has. It has been said that what Mr. Munro of the Irish Times calls the macro-economists, what we used to call, when I was a student, the economic theorists, have been very quiet in this country. Perhaps they are wise. If there is a group of people going mad on pushing up GNP by means of high taxation and saying that this is growth nothing will stop them, no individuals who will write about it will stop them. They will just be regarded as oddities. Above all, I have not got the same faith that Deputy FitzGerald has in the capacity of men to make correct forecasts about economic matters in which the variables are too numerous. You have too many variables and you can set up too few equations. That is a simple mathematical matter. One mathematical economist drew my attention to this years ago. I agree with him 100 per cent.

It is not the nature of the economic system, there are so many influences, to move forward or backward at an even pace. I do not think it is the nature of humanity itself to move in any direction at an even pace. Human beings vary from one period to another and certainly the Government did get a period when, by means of the creation of credit, they gave a fillip to the economy which, of course, had plenty of resources following in part the nonuser of these resources at a time when the bankers in this country were yelling murder, in the middle 1950s. Today the Central Bank talk about but never really attack Government expenditure the way it should be attacked.

I am sorry the Tánaiste was not here for an earlier part of my speech. I shall wait to hear him because I know the nature of his contribution to this subject. In the Quarterly Bulletin of the Central Bank, Spring, 1971, it is said:

It is obvious that a great responsibility is thrown on fiscal and monetary policies to moderate the dangerous inflationary trend. Whether they will do so depends very largely on the extent of the reduction which can be effected in the rate of increase in public expenditure....

It is not a question of stabilising Government expenditure any longer but of moderating the rate of increase in public expenditure. Under the heading of Economic Growth they say:

Early return to a better economic balance is important for several reasons. Without a sounder relationship between total expenditure (public and private combined) and national output, excessive price inflation will continue.

This shows the nature af the minds in the Central Bank. They are in favour of price inflation. The only thing they are against is excessive price inflation.

Then we have the Minister saying that not even businessmen are quite aware of the dreadful effects of inflation. That is one of the biggest jokes of the Budget. Why? Because of all the people who favour inflation businessmen favour it most because all the time they are buying things in at one price and selling them off at another price. Their overheads are going down all the time—rents and so on. The real cost of any rents they pay goes down. It is still the case that in all the countries of Western Europe the majority of the people favour inflation.

I do not mind what the Tánaiste tells us here this evening—and I am sure he will tell us a lot of fairytales—this Government believe in inflation. It is the old business of: "Do not do as I do but do as I say" or the other one: "In Ireland you can do what you like so long as you say the right thing." In England they say you can say what you like so long as you end up doing the right thing. I agree with the English approach on this matter. Men should be allowed to say what they like so long as they end up by doing the right thing. Certainly this Government will never do the right thing.

I propose to deal with a number of miscellaneous matters at first in connection with the Budget and the economic report for last year, because I think they are matters which should be ventilated in the House for the sake of the public interest and in order to counter exaggerated statements. The first thing I want to deal with is the allegation being made in almost hysterical terms that the effect of our indirect taxes has been so considerable upon the cost of living that we are encouraging wage inflation on a very, very heavy scale; in other words, the suggestion that if we had never made use of turnover tax or wholesale tax, perhaps we would never have had inflation.

I want to deal with that point and the best way to deal with it is to be absolutely frank and give the actual facts as recorded in the Economic and Social Research Institute Quarterly Economic Commentary, March, 1971. I want to admit that I was agreeably surprised when I saw the analysis of the effect of indirect tax growth on the cost of living because I honestly thought that it had been higher than it really was. Compared with February, 1958, the general consumer cost of living index went up to 166.8, February, 1958, being 100. If no indirect taxes had been imposed it would have gone up to 151.6. In other words, for all the turnover taxes collected ever since they were imposed on the public, the total effect on the cost of living was 22 per cent over the whole of the ten year period.

Of course, as everybody knows, this turnover tax was used for general purposes. It was used to increase social welfare services. Whenever it was imposed allowance was made for its effect on people with large families and the social welfare allowances were increased. Children's allowances were especially increased on a number of occasions because, although indirect taxation as a tax on expenditure could not really be called regressive taxation, it is accepted that it is not absolutely fair, that it impinges more upon those who are less well-off, those who are in poor circumstances, those who are sick or unemployed and so, therefore, whenever the turnover tax is increased, allowance has to be made for that factor in order that, after the social assistance has been increased, the tax can be regarded as fair and impinging upon the community in relation to the incomes of every individual.

When you examine the details of this you find that in respect of the items that are most important to the community, the turnover tax has not had the effect that has been suggested over the past 11 years. The total effect of the turnover tax during the whole of the period from 1958 was to raise the cost of food by 12 per cent, of clothing by 13.5 per cent, of fuel and light by 14.5 per cent and, in its connection with housing, by 3.5 per cent. There were many other items where the effect of the turnover tax, the wholesale tax and the motor taxes was much heavier. That is why the average effect of the total indirect taxation imposed, which includes, of course, the excise taxes, was 22 per cent. We must be frank about it and say, for example, that the effect on drink and tobacco, which are not essential items though they are very pleasant things to consume unless you think of the dangers of smoking cigarettes, was an increase of price attributable to changes in direct taxation of 64 per cent over the period since February, 1958, up to November, 1970.

In the case of durable household goods there was a very considerable increase in cost due to indirect taxes and largely because of the imposition of the wholesale or luxury tax. The increase in that case over the whole period was 29 per cent. I wanted to mention that because the impact of indirect taxation on the cost of living and its effect in connection with wage claims have been exaggerated. I admit that care has to be taken, particularly in an inflationary situation such as we now have, not to encourage wage inflation by adding to the turnover tax. This we have not done. I mention this in connection with the fact that in the Budget we are now discussing there has been no increase in turnover tax.

There has been a slowing down in the growth of State expenditure which in itself is inflationary, and increased taxes have been imposed upon drink of which there is every evidence that there is a huge consumption. The income tax changes will have a maximum effect of £1 per month extra tax on the community and that can hardly be called inflationary. Let us have any discussion on the effect of indirect taxation on costs conducted in a reasonable way and not by exaggerated statements. It is most interesting that the effect of all indirect taxation on the cost of food since 1958 has been to increase the price of food by 12 per cent. I thought that was a very interesting figure.

Next I want to deal with another matter. We had a great deal of comment coming up to the Budget on how the five years of free trading have worked. I think Deputy FitzGerald is sufficiently objective in his Economic Studies in the Irish Times for me to put on record in this House his own analysis of the position. I am not saying I am sufficiently competent to agree or disagree with it but I noted that there was not much contradiction from any other economist in the Irish Times when he published his report. It seems to me that his report illustrates the need, when we discuss the effect of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement, to be dispassionate and objective in our comments.

The first comment Deputy FitzGerald made in his report in the Irish Times of March 24th, 1971, was on the very great growth in the volume of industrial exports. He even provides us with the figure of the volume of increase of exports. In other words, having discounted the increase in costs through inflation, he gives the increase in the volume of industrial exports as about 53 per cent for the 1960-65 period and over 80 per cent for the 1965-70 period. He said:

The effect of this acceleration of our export drive, combined with an acceleration in the rise of export prices which has more than kept pace with the rise in import prices, has been a growth in industrial exports in the past five years that has been almost twice as great as the increase in imports of competitive goods—the £175m. increase in the value of industrial exports being accompanied by an increase of £93m. in imports of competitive goods.

Then, of course, he refers to the fact that the balance of payments position has deteriorated and he analyses the whole of the imports in a recent period and says:

Indeed for many categories of goods the UK share has fallen in this period. Of 27 groups of imports of manufactures including chemicals 14 show such a decline, and five others show no improvement. Thus in only eight groups has the UK share risen.

He demolishes at one fell swoop the allegation that the balance of payments difficulties we had, or the difficulties we had in relation to certain industries, were entirely caused by the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. I recommend anyone in the House who is interested to get a copy of the Irish Times of 24th March and to read it. It would take me too long to read it in detail.

He then refers to the industries which have been affected by British imports and says that three of these belong to the chemical groups—soaps, perfumes, fertilisers and miscellaneous items like starch and glue. Two others are the basic metal groups, iron and steel and non-ferrous metals, where the freeing of trade has had only a limited application. Another is the furniture and travel goods groups where handbags, brief cases, et cetera, from the United Kingdom seem to have made rapid progress. In the remaining two groups—clothing and footwear—free trade appears to have made an important impact.

He points out that it would appear that the main impact of the freeing of trade in the five years to 1970 seems to have been felt in the clothing and footwear trades. However, it is pointed out that the increase in the exports of clothing has exceeded substantially the rise in imports but this is not the case when footwear is examined. A very interesting table is produced to illustrate the true facts of the situation.

In the clothing and footwear group, exports have gone up from £7.2 million in 1965 to £16 million in 1970. Home production for home consumption went up in the same period from £27.9 million to £35 million and competitive imports increased from £2.5 million to £9 million. The import share is now 20½ per cent of total home consumption, compared with 8½ per cent. He refers to the fact that the clothing industry by being able to promote far greater exports does not appear, at least collectively, to be in danger. Deputy FitzGerald did not refer to the fact that in the clothing industry the basic wages are 25 per cent higher than in Great Britain and were it not for the tax remission on exports the clothing industry undoubtedly would be at least in some difficulty in some sectors.

I do not think there is any need for me to read the tables of the other products where the effect of the free trade treaty has been absolutely apparent because in the case of many, even though the British gained a larger share of the market, exports have increased so considerably as to offset any adverse effects. Perhaps I might mention the metal and engineering groups. Incidentally, Deputy FitzGerald says that his 1970 figures have been provided by him privately and that he cannot guarantee their absolute accuracy. As I have said, I have not often seen Deputy FitzGerald's figures questioned by other serious economists. In the metal and engineering groups exports have bounded from £13.8 million in 1965 to £44 million in 1970. Home production for home consumption increased from £91.6 million to £121 million and imports increased from £21 million to £44 million. The imports share represents 27 per cent as compared with 19 per cent of the apparent total consumption. This is another illustration of the effect of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement. This effect might appear in the first instance as being serious but it has been compensated for by a very great increase in exports and by the fact that home manufacturers are able to participate in the growing prosperity by increasing the amount of their production which is used for home consumption.

We must be realistic about this. As the House knows, in July there will be negotiations at the half-way mark of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. Deputy FitzGerald points out that the second part of this period, as we all admit, is going to be more difficult. In fact, it may correspond with our entry into the European Economic Community and he makes all the observations about the necessity for industry re-equipping itself. The necessity is to negotiate on what we can do under the treaty, namely, in respect of 3 per cent of imports from Great Britain and in connection with certain industrial groups we can discuss a slowing down in the rate of deceleration of tariffs so far as the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement is concerned. Deputy FitzGerald makes the point that we must pull up our socks and make sure that during the second period our exports can continue to increase and that we prepare ourselves for more free trade.

I do not want to suggest that he is not giving a serious warning. It is quite evident that we have got to make allowances for this in the future, whether we join the EEC or remain joined with the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. I wanted to mention those points because before discussing the allegedly fatal results of the agreement upon our industries, those who speak about it should take Deputy FitzGerald's analysis, amplify it themselves with any figures they can get from the Central Statistics Office and make a reasoned, not hysterical, case. It is important that we should look at these things in an intelligent way.

With regard to progress in the sphere of agriculture, sometimes when progress is halted over a period people look at the fact that the volume of exports has not markedly changed but they do not look at the fundamental facts regarding the tremendous growth of this industry during the past ten years. So far as 1970 is concerned, agricultural exports went up by £16.7 million and we should like to see them increased still more. So far as the condition of agriculture is concerned, at least there are some favourable factors. We have the highest cattle numbers ever—5.8 million. This increase largely includes cattle under three years which will come up for sale at a later period. The decline in the sheep numbers has been slowed up in the last part of 1970 as a result of the farmers' interest in the hillside incentive, land reclamation and fencing schemes, as a result of steps taken by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and the instructors, and as a result of the subsidies for mountain sheep which have been increased this year. Pig deliveries last year totalled nearly 2 million, which was virtually a record figure. It is true to say that we give some help to agriculture when we realise that the milk support in 1970 amounted to 5½p a gallon and that the total support for milk cost some £30 million. This is a considerable contribution to price support for agricultural incomes.

I was interested in the statements made by various farming organisations in regard to the need for more credit and more investment by farmers. I dare say it is true that it tends to be the medium-size and larger farmers who borrow money for investment purposes and also for the purchase of land. Nevertheless there has been a transformation of the scene in regard to agricultural credit in the last ten years. In 1958 bank loans to farmers were some £17 million and they are now £62 million. The Agricultural Credit Corporation, as the House knows, has adopted a very much more liberal attitude. I was not able to get the figure for agricultural credit outstanding to farmers in 1958 but I would guess it to be something under £6 million, and in 1970 it had risen to £23 million.

If one wants evidence that farm structure is improving the figures in the report for 1970 published by the Government for the increase in fertiliser consumption are extremely helpful. Farmers do not use fertilisers unless they really believe in the future of farm policy and in one year, 1970, the increase in the use of nitrogenous fertilisers was 11.4 per cent; in the case of phosphorous fertilisers, 6.1 per cent; in the case of potash, 5.4 per cent; and in the case of lime, an increase of 21 per cent.

If one examines that in connection with the enormous number of applications for farm building grants and if one examines the increase in the price of land all one can say is, while we have always admitted that farm income is not comparable with non-farm income, there has been great progress. Examining what has happened in the last ten years one can see that, in spite of all the difficulties and in spite of the difficulties of ensuring that agricultural income would go up equally with nonagricultural incomes, there has been a very big increase in agricultural production.

Agricultural output has gone up by over 25 per cent since 1959 and by 66 per cent in value, and cattle and beef output has risen by 75 per cent in value. The value of milk output has more than doubled in that ten-year period, as indicated by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, from 1959 to 1969. The Department do not include the 1970 figures. They will appear with the coming Estimate. Pig numbers have very much increased. In 1970 they were 33 per cent higher than they were in 1959. Total family farm income in 1969 was £172 million, £62 million higher than in 1959. Coupled with the increase of more than a quarter in the volume of output was an increase of 31 per cent in the agricultural price level. Quite evidently the Government are responsible only to a certain degree for the increase in the agricultural price level because part of the increase relates to the increase in the price of cattle in Great Britain. In 1959 agricultural exports were valued at £78 million; in 1970 they were valued at £179 million, a very substantial increase.

Let us consider some other factors in relation to agriculture. It is very interesting to see that, when we established the beef incentive scheme in order to encourage beef production, in the first year of operation over 33,000 received grants. There are something like 210,000 farmers in the country, some of whom are very small and some of whom as well as being farmers have other occupations, and that at least shows that advantage is taken of the beef cattle incentive scheme.

I do not think I need give in very great detail the enormous increase in the supply of milk during a period of some ten years. However, it should be mentioned that the quantity of milk supplied to the creameries in 1969 was 526 million gallons and it was almost double the quantity supplied in 1960. With that there have been increases in the production of butter, of chocolate crumb and cheese. The question of cheese is interesting because it is an export which should prove remunerative when there is no surplus, and I gather the surplus abroad is rapidly disappearing. It is a very valuable form of export; it takes milk out of some of the other less remunerative products. Cheese production in 1969, at almost 27,000 tons, was nearly seven times the quantity produced in 1960.

Twice recently we have increased the price of milk. I do think some people's memories are very short. I myself was quite staggered, because I had forgotten the figure, that the total Exchequer expenditure in support of the dairying industry increased from £2,350,000 in 1960-61 to £30,779,000 in 1969-70. Therefore there has been a very great increase. The average amount paid per supplier for milk increased from £237 in 1960 to £548 in 1969. That is an overall national figure, but in cases where a co-operative society is particularly successful, where it issues credit on a big scale, where it has its own private agricultural instructors which supplement the work of the instructors attached to the agricultural committees there are even better results than that. In the case, for example, of the Lough Egish Co-Operative Society which is one of the best we have—and others could be quoted—the milk cheques were £250,000 in 1960 and in 1970 they were somewhere in the region of £1,250,000 and the number of suppliers increased only marginally, so that that is a genuine figure. This is in a small farm area and it is an illustration of what can be done with a combination of intensified enterprise by farmers, price supports, Government grants for the improvement of the farm structure and the successful and economic operation of a co-operative society working with the farmers.

I think I have said enough about the progress in the last ten years to again repeat that our policy is to give as much support as we possibly can afford to farmers to encourage them to increase their production, to help them secure their markets, and of course we are now in negotiation with the European Economic Community and if we are successful there should be a very considerable accretion of income to the farming community and we will get away from the position of trading with the country where the policy has been very largely that of ensuring the cheapest possible food for its people, namely, Britain. Nevertheless, the figures I have given over a period of ten years show that whatever the difficulties may have been in connection with the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement in relation to agriculture they have not prevented very large increases in exports taking place, the vast majority of which went to Great Britain.

It is well for the whole community to recognise these facts and, as I have said, if we can continue every year and sometimes twice a year to increase price supports where we think these are desirable—in the present Budget the Minister has increased a number of the grants for very attractive schemes, for example, the increase in the amount of bonus payable to those who were taking part in the farm incentive scheme. The numbers are still too low but nevertheless some progress is being made. Then, there is the increase this year in the subsidy for sheep. This will be helpful to mountain farmers and particularly helpful to small farmers in areas where there is not a great milk intake. The Government took account of the fact that whereas milk provides an important cash income for farmers, big and small, there are areas where the milk industry has not spread, where the land is poor or where there is hilly country and where it is essential to provide a particular support for those to whom the production of sheep is of very great importance.

I was delighted to see that, according to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, decline in sheep numbers was being arrested towards the end of 1970. As everyone knows, when cattle prices are extremely high, there is an incentive to farmers to get out of sheep since cattle make use of highly fertilised land in a more thrifty way than sheep. It is good to see that the decline in sheep production which was a serious matter is being arrested. The Government have done everything possible towards helping sheep breeders and in connection with the marketing of wool which, of course, is subject to marketing conditions over which we have no control. They have also helped in connection with price supports for mountain hoggets and lambs. I mention those matters because they seem to me to be important.

Next, I want to deal with the general economic position as we have seen it during the past year and I want to make some observations on matters of importance to which we must give attention in connection with the future of our economy. As the House is aware, the year 1970 was a difficult and unfavourable one. This was due to the bank strike, the cement strike and the increase in the gross national product fell to a very low level. However, there is no need to look at this decline in a hysterical or a pessimistic way provided we can have a recovery of the same kind that took place in 1967 after the temporary recession in 1965-66. In 1968, the increase in gross national product was 7.9 per cent; in 1969 it was 4 per cent and in 1970 it was 1½ per cent. In the prediction for this year we are told that, provided no untoward circumstances occur, provided there is no serious strike situation, provided there is no sudden collapse of demand abroad for reasons over which we have no control and provided, above all, that the employer-trade union agreement holds together in large measure during the year, it should be possible to have an increase this year of 3 per cent. If that is achieved, the average for the four years, while we would like to see some further increase, will not be wholly unsatisfactory. Of course, in 1971, we must take account of the fact that there are increasing numbers of unemployed in Great Britain; also, in 1970 there was a recession in the United States which affected trade everywhere.

Again, if we look at the balance of payments for 1970 which was very high at £62 million, we must take account of the fact that part of the reasons for this was the inflationary position and that it appears that, in negotiating for higher incomes, no one seems to realise that every £1 of increase in wages means 8s 6d worth of import increase. There is very little we can do about this. We could do something about it if more of us selected and purchased Irish goods in the shops but even if we did take a more patriotic attitude in our purchases, which people should do, we are import prone and we will continue to be so unless, for example, we discover very much larger quantities of ores which would add to our natural resource exports. We hope for greater agricultural exports but, generally speaking, we share import proneness with the British and some other countries.

Therefore, when demands for increased incomes are received, these facts must be borne in mind because if the balance of payments position becomes really serious, the Government are obliged to cut down in one way or another on purchasing power. When people ask for higher wages or salaries they should bear in mind what the result will be in the total volume of imports and what necessary restrictions must be undertaken by the Government if the situation becomes too serious. Luckily for us, although we have this very large increase in imports and a very big deficit in the balance of payments, the external reserves in the banks in February, 1970 were some £290 million as compared with £288 million in December, 1969. That showed that we still maintained what may not have been an entirely adequate external reserve volume but, nevertheless, it indicates that, as we know, there was a very large capital inflow and inflow of capital goods which, while it may have had an inflationary effect, is also the result of investment in industry of one kind or another and can be a possible factor. Indeed, that is reflected in the fact that the total fixed capital formation in 1970 was down on that of 1969 by only a very small marginal figure and that the fixed capital formation was 21 per cent of the total value of production in the country. If that figure is examined and compared with the figures for other European countries, it will be seen to be a fairly respectable percentage. It means that there was a massive investment in industry in 1970 in spite of all the difficulties. We want to encourage productive investment this year and, as a result, the Government made an improvement in the arrangement for tax allowances on new investments by companies and with particular reference to a special allowance for industries starting or existing in the western areas. We hope that in this year we will see the continuation of industrial investment but that depends on many factors. It depends in particular on the confidence that investors will have in the maintenance of the 1971 employers-workers agreement on wages and on the confidence that in 1972 employers will look back and see what has taken place in the way of inflation in the past and see whether they cannot continue to have a reasonable attitude and to obey the rule that as far as possible, with the exception of the lower paid workers, incomes should not increase faster than the rate of growth in the value of production.

In 1970, some 5,000 new jobs were created but, again, this is not sufficient. There was an increase in unemployment. Of course, this is undesirable but it was due to a number of factors which included some recession in Great Britain and particular difficulties occasioned by industries where there has been a change in demand, a change that can take place anywhere. Also, there was the effect of excessive inflation and excessive increases in wages in relation to unit costs of production. That is something that will have to be avoided in 1972 if we are to continue to make progress.

Although Deputy L'Estrange perpetually asks questions every month or so about the total labour force, we know that the total labour force has continued to decline during a period of years whereas employment in industry and in other spheres increased enormously and that the numbers of persons leaving the land were such that the total labour force showed a reduction for a very considerable part of the period when the whole country was advancing in prosperity. It is well to remind the House that very late, indeed, but, nevertheless, in 1967, this process was finally arrested and that the total labour force went up from 1,063,000 in 1967 to 1,073,000 in 1968. This was the beginning, I hope, of a new era in which it would be possible to employ as many new people as possible and sufficient to offset the decline in agricultural employment. The decline in agricultural employment, I should mention, does not compare unfavourably with what is found in European countries. If you take the figures for the decline in the number of farmers, farm workers and employees in the EEC countries you find there has been a most alarming decrease, alarming because nobody likes to see the basic rural structure declining in respect of numbers but, nevertheless, it has taken place and our problem has been that although we were able enormously to expand industry we were not able to get to the point where we could offer as many new jobs in the non-agricultural field to those who needed employment and who were leaving the land. At last we were able to reach that position and we hope that position will continue. I believe it will continue if we have the right financial and economic conditions here.

In 1970, industrial exports increased by 20 per cent. This was not sufficient according to a survey made. The total increase in exports supposed to take place during the Third Programme is not likely to be achieved for reasons I have already given—inflation and certain difficulties in connection with particular exports—but, nevertheless, industrial exports have continued to expand. We hope they will be able to cope with the burdens involved and the grossly excessive inflation that has taken place. We have given exporters tax incentives for re-equipment and equipment grants. We hope with the combination of increased allowances for investment and the present scale of equipment grants and grants for new industries progress will be made in this direction.

One of the most interesting facts in 1970 was that in spite of the very serious cement strike, according to the figures we can get the actual volume of housing carried out in 1970 was roughly the same as in 1969. Certain types of houses were started later and will not show the same result but the total volume of housing was the same. That was a remarkable effort. Many expected a very considerable decrease in the volume of new housing stock in that year and it is very satisfactory that 1970 ended with the same volume of housing as 1969.

In connection with some of the failures of factories that have taken place, there are a number of reasons. In some cases, as I have said, it is due to changes in the pattern of demand from abroad. In some cases it is no doubt due to the fact that certain manufacturers should have undertaken re-equipment and that their productivity increase was not sufficient. Some failures are undoubtedly due to the huge increase in wages. I should like any economist to tell me why it should be that in some 26 industries, trades and services the wage levels here are very much higher than in Britain although we have half the income per head of the British. There may be certain cases when corresponding workers in Britain are badly paid and that, therefore, if our wage is greater that is satisfactory but in a country that inevitably must face free trade conditions, and where there should be some allowances for possible recession among our principal trading partners, care should be taken before wages generally begin exceeding those in Britain in respect of some very important industries and services. It is a fact that were it not for the incentive of exports being free of income tax charges quite a number of industries would be in difficulties because the wage levels they have to pay are higher than those of their competitors.

I hope that in 1972 when the period covered by the present negotiations ends that fact will be taken into account in deciding what the increase to all should be in 1972.

It is not in the interests of the workers or their growing-up families to have a wage structure that jeopardises the possibility of massive new employment and the retention of existing employment, particularly in new industries facing cut-throat competition where because, perhaps, of the small size of the unit here or because the industry is new or workers have to be trained, or there is recession in their particular products, the actual wage cost per unit of output is of very great importance. It seems to me that in the long run workers would be able to get higher standards of living, more real purchasing power, greater happiness for themselves and their families if they looked at these matters very carefully before deciding what their demands should be. I am convinced that if, since the great period of industrial expansion, the rules in regard to productivity and income increases had been faithfully observed the standard of living would be still better in this country, the workers would have benefited more by being able to keep the value of their wages, apart from whatever the effect would be of increases in the price of imported goods and raw materials over which we have no control. I am perfectly certain that when we ask to have these rules observed we are not trying to depress anybody's standard of living. We should like to see the low-paid workers move up closer to the craftsman's class—I mention this in passing—but I think we would have had a better real increase in the standard of living if these rules had been observed.

In 1972—and it will take place before the next Budget—we face the new negotiations. I hope that when economists make statements they will not be by-passed and ignored: they should either be refuted or accepted. Every examination I can make suggests that whatever may be the inducement to people to seek high increases in salaries and wages there is absolutely no evidence that the profits of industry here and the increases therein either in the past ten years or the past five years and, least of all, in 1970 are excessive in relation to those in any other country or could justify the salary or wage earners in saying: "Look at these tremendously high profits. Why should we not get more of the cake?"

I would defy anybody to contradict me; I would defy anybody to take the public accounts of some of our industries which face severe competition abroad to look at the dividends paid to shareholders and the increase in the dividends over the past five or ten years, take allowance for what has been put back by the firm into capital investment, take allowance of what has been paid in income tax to the State and then say that if half the remaining dividend had been paid to workers in the form of increases in wages it would have transformed their position and because it was not paid the workers were justified in seeking inflationary increases in wages. I have studied this and I know I am speaking in a way that cannot be contradicted.

If one studies the level of higher executive salaries and if one reads the analysis made by the Irish Management Institute there is no evidence that top executives are receiving salaries of such an order as to cast doubt on the good faith of the enterprise when the enterprise declares that if wage increases go above a certain amount this will reduce the competitiveness of the firm. As far as I know, the Irish Management Institute is a respectable body and its investigations are fairly conducted. It has issued more than one analysis of executive salary payments compared with those in Great Britain and they are not at an excessive level. Frequently people who naturally look for a higher standard of living take a figure, such as the general manager of an enterprise receiving £7,000 a year but they fail to recognise that if that man is married and does not have any children he is paying £2,468 in income tax and surtax—my figures go back about two years but no significant change has taken place during that time—and a man earning £5,000 who is married but has no children pays something in the region of £1,300 in income tax and surtax. I do not think it is right when people try to start rumours and try to cast envy into the minds of salary and wage earners either on the head of the rates of profits that have been established here by industries taken as a whole or in relation to the rates at which executives are paid. I say this: I have never yet been contradicted and I do not think I could be contradicted.

As I have said in 1972 we shall have to take account of the possibility of a recession in connection with our principal trading partner, Great Britain, and her capacity to buy our goods. We shall have to take account of growing free trade in the world at large which is quite inevitable so far as we are concerned and we shall have to take account of what the experience is during the present year in relation to its exports and in relation to wage costs per unit of output. It seems to me as long as we can face this issue realistically we shall be able to make greater progress next year, this year being a year of difficulty which has been quite frankly admitted by us all.

Would the Tánaiste agree that there are too many trade unions in this country and one of the main problems is that trade unions are competing against each other for increases?

I am going to deal later with how far any Government in a free economy can actually dictate for any continuous period, except during a world war, the level of incomes of the country. I am not going to refer to the more controversial question mentioned by the Deputy, such as conflicting trade unions, but I shall refer to the matter generally.

During the present year we should take account of the fact that our nearest neighbour, Great Britain, is far from being out of trouble. People who want to retain their employment here should ask their trade unions and their employers when this wage negotiation period is over for a report on what is likely to be the English economic position at the end of this year. I would not attempt to analyse this myself but I have been a reader of The Economist for the past 20 years; it is a most responsible periodical; it may make mistakes from time to time but as far as I recall when The Economist publishes a leading article on the economic position in Great Britain it can at least be taken seriously to this point in the sense that we should say: “Let us look at this situation before we decide to agree on any kind of inflationary rise in incomes in 1972.” The issue of The Economist published on 24th April, 1971, speaks of a real incomes policy:

Unemployment in the United Kingdom at the mid-April count was over 814,000. The rate of price inflation in the year to mid-March has accelerated to 8¾ per cent. The annual rate of inflation in manual workers' earnings is still up near to 15 per cent, while production in the past year has barely increased at all. The latest 16 to 20 per cent wage increases granted in the motor industry have encouraged new wage claims for over 30 per cent to be put into the pipeline for next Autumn by some unions who have already received large increases for 1970-71 in the past few months.

It has thus become impossible to say with honesty that the Government's anti-inflation policy is succeeding. Sooner or later an incomes policy is going to have to be brought into being.

The article goes on to say that there is going to be great economic difficulty in England some time between September, 1971 and December, 1972. Unless there is a better incomes policy Britain's next economic crisis will probably break some time between September, 1971 and December, 1972. It would take too long to read the article in full but it is a warning to us, because even if we join the EEC in 1973 for years our principal trading partner will continue to be Great Britain and it would be absolutely appalling if advice is not given to all those who seek another round of wage increases in 1972 that in their own personal and selfish interest they should take account of whatever element of recession in Great Britain they believe they have to contemplate as a reality between September, 1971, and December, 1972, because we want our people to retain their employment.

Is the Minister advocating the proposition contained in that article which proposes a 12 months freeze in wages?

No, I am not; why does the Deputy try to trip me up on this? I have not advocated it.

It is in the article.

It does not matter; I have not advocated it.

The Deputy has a closed mind.

It is no use the Deputy trying to publish the report that I am advocating an incomes freeze at this moment. I have not spoken on these questions.

The Tánaiste clearly said that an incomes policy was necessary and that is the proposition in the article.

I said an incomes rise which relates to the growth in productivity: that is not an incomes freeze, that is a voluntary acceptance of the golden rule that if one asks for 7 per cent and the growth in productivity is 7 per cent one keeps the whole of one's money.

That is not what the article says.

If one asks for 14 per cent and the growth in production is 7 per cent one will lose everything and create inflation; that is not a freezing of incomes, it is an intelligent attitude towards the growth of incomes.

The Tánaiste seems to forget there is a national wage agreement at the moment. If he is going to get hysterical about it——

I have also indicated that clearly in everything I have said. I am now in the Budget of 1971 asking people to think carefully and long as to what will happen in 1972 when a new period for negotiation emerges. As the Deputy knows, the present agreement is still going to result in an increase in the cost of living of 6½ per cent but, nevertheless, it is regarded as a satisfactory brake on inflation by most leading economists.

I believe in higher standards for workers. I believe they should have higher standards of living, but for workers to get an increase of 14 per cent, to start spending it, and then to have a slow and inevitable increase in the cost of living, causes an unendurable strain which frequently results in their having to go as out-patients to psychiatric clinics. That kind of inflation seems to me to be a continuing madness. All I am asking is that this inflation be controlled so that the worker will know in advance that his standard of living will go up to the greatest extent possible commensurate with the amount of wages he is getting. That is all I have said. It is a perfectly reasonable statement. I am not trying to stop anyone getting an improved standard of living.

If one looks at the history of inflation in the more advanced countries of Northern Europe, with stabilised expert civil servants, a host of economists, a trade union employer/worker system of organisation which is very highly developed, one can say without fear of contradiction that no government since 1949 has been able to stop inflation the moment it started because the collective system of bargaining exists and governments by and large are only able to deal with inflation when it has become completely and absolutely apparent, when it is staring in the face of the community. Then there has to be some kind of control such as a wage freeze, such as they had in the Netherlands, a country with a very large number in Parliament who might be described as left of centre, social democrats, or mild socialists. That has been the situation in Sweden. One of the grimmest ways of controlling inflation is the method adopted by Sweden where there was a reduction in the volume of public housing, a reduction deliberately induced. Whatever the method, whether it be the control of bank credit, price control, or a temporary price freeze, such measures are always introduced when the inflation has become more than apparent. One has only to look at our neighbour across the water to know that.

One cannot persuade the public to accept drastic restrictions to curb inflation until the really difficult moment has arrived. If anyone can show me any government which was able to control inflation since the war, or effectively seal it off, I should like to hear him. Fine Gael allege that in the past ten years we have never tried to implement an incomes and wages policy. My answer to that is that at frequent intervals we referred this matter to the National Industrial and Economic Council. They did propose an arrangement, but that arrangement broke down at the end of 1970. We were at that point of time considering introducing a wage and prices freeze, but we were able to get a voluntary agreement. If any economist, Deputy FitzGerald or anyone else, can prove I am wrong in what I say I should like to hear him; it is a sad fact of life.

In Europe some countries have been better than others at fighting inflation. The two best are Germany and Switzerland. In both these countries the cost of living has risen by less than it has in any other country in Western Europe since 1963. The cost of living in these two countries went up since 1963 by 21 or 26 per cent as compared with 45 per cent here. The reason for the success of the Germans and the Swiss is the fact that there is already a very large measure of agreement, an understanding, about the relation of productivity to increase in incomes on the part of trade unions, employers and economists. As a result of that there has had to be no dramatic action in either of these countries because the rules have been obeyed. In Switzerland today gross national product considerably exceeds that of Great Britain. Swiss workers have not failed to get a satisfactory standard of living; they are well able to enjoy the good things of life in the same measure as those in which inflation has taken place. I challenge anybody to go to Switzerland and prove that the Swiss workers have suffered in the slightest degree though Switzerland has experienced inflation since 1949. The productivity rule there has been obeyed to a greater extent than it has been in other Western European countries. One of the things that has saved us from the worst is the fact that the whole world is suffering from inflation.

(Cavan): We deliberately started it. The Fianna Fáil Government deliberately started it here in 1964.

I disagree with the Deputy. I have given the facts. Because other countries have inflated and because Britain has nearly gone bankrupt and had to devalue because of her appalling inflation we, as their largest trading partner, have managed to survive. The British have been propped up with loans. I believe they are now repaying them. The sad thing is that in the last two or three years we have been inflating faster than anybody else. As I said, the Governments in all these countries have had to wait until inflation became really serious. The Opposition are quite entitled to argue that you could have done it six months or nine months before they did it. They can argue we did it too soon, which was the argument put forward by Fine Gael in 1966; they then said we were too rough in our disinflation. People are entitled to argue about the timing but they cannot say that other countries were immediately able to control inflation or prevent it occurring. We must face reality.

There is a dreadful little chart showing the increases in wage unit costs in industry since 1963. There are four Northern European countries with the graph slowly moving up. At the top the British are first with the second largest percentage increase in wage costs and then ourselves slightly exceeding the British. Industries are new in this country and, unlike the British, we still have to introduce a great deal more industry in order to provide sufficient employment. We are an island nation, remote from large parts of Europe, and it is a melancholy satisfaction to know that we share with the British the highest growth record in wage costs per unit of output. That is a very sad thing indeed.

Repeated speeches have been made and endless exhortations by me and other Ministers and by independent economists, by the NIEC on which trade unionists sit. It is just a melancholy fact that we have to face. Once again we hope that in 1972 everyone will see the light. I hope employers will take all the action they can to give more information to trade unions when they negotiate with them and that, in so far as it is possible, they will be able to help this process of reasoning, the outlines of which I have given, by giving freely as much information as possible on what are the competitive factors in their business, what are the export costs, what are the prices of the goods in England with which they have to compete, so as to encourage a sense of realism in trade unions and so that they do not feel that they are being deceived in any way or that employers are trying to put something across on them and that, in fact, they could afford to get a very much higher wage structure without the business itself suffering. Maybe the halt in the growth of employment this year and the growth of unemployment and some closures that have taken place will make everybody think more on this subject. I wanted to mention these facts because they seem to me to be of very great importance.

It is a fact that we had some wonderful periods since the economic revival took place, since the great growth of industry took place here and the increase in farm incomes, when we did keep the rules. I do not remember any of the salary or wage earners feeling dissatisfied with the result of their endeavours. I take the period, for example, 1958 to 1961, when we had a very satisfactory increase in GNP of 14.9 per cent in the three years. We had an increase in the weekly earnings of workers in industry of 17.2 per cent and the increase in weekly earnings workers in industry in real terms was 13.5 per cent. The workers, during that three-year period, kept nearly the whole of the gross increases in their earnings. That, for that period, was a very good increase in weekly earnings in either current money terms or real terms. During that period the exports of this country in three years went up by 37.5 per cent. We were making progress in the increase in our exports and so little were prices changed, there was so little increase in the cost of living, that the volume of exports went up by 36 per cent.

Then if one takes a period of inflation and one looks at the increase of GNP, in the two-year period from 1967 to 1969 it was 11 per cent. The increase in the weekly earnings of workers in industry in current money terms was 21.9 per cent but because the demand was too great there was inflation and the actual increase in real terms was only 8.3 per cent.

These are two perfectly clear examples of an enormous reduction from the gross figure because the demand was too great with an accompanying increase in industrial costs. I do not believe that any trade unionist will say that I am being mean in saying that if workers can get an increase, a real increase equivalent to the gross national product, and keep most of their money, having asked for 17 per cent over a period of three years, that we would not see a very great growth in higher standards of living in real terms, far greater opportunities for employment in families, workers in families being able to get wages in a greater number of new industries where skills are demanded so that in the long run the workers would actually have at least greater family incomes because of being able to keep the rules. If they go to Switzerland and look at Switzerland where there is I think the lowest rate of inflation in Europe they will find there that if they take the incomes of families and the general growth of prosperity in Switzerland there is nothing they need be afraid of. They will come back and say that the Swiss have been doing very well and that there is no reason why we should not try to copy their example. Even the Swiss have not been perfect. They have been through some periods of difficulty, of inflation and finance problems of one kind or another. I am simply saying that I hope we will be able to see an intelligent attitude taken towards this in 1972.

We have tried to play our part in encouraging the right attitude towards inflation in the decisions we have taken in this Budget. We have introduced no inflationary taxation. We have moderated the growth in Government expenditure as we were advised by every economist, by the Economic and Social Research Institute, by everybody who knows about these things that Government expenditure increases contribute to inflation and so we have reduced the rate of increase of expenditure. We have contained the capital programme in such a way that while it will have much good effect upon the country the increase is not so excessive as to encourage inflation. We have no inflationary taxation. We have provided investment allowances. We have increased the social welfare allowances to meet the increase in the cost of living. We have done something very special that was very badly needed and we need to do even more on it later, namely, in looking after widows. We have made some contribution to enabling farmers to increase their incomes.

In other words, our policy is one in which we hope that the effect of Government fiscal policy will be to enable an increase in the growth of production this year to be about 3 per cent over last year in the hope that we can make a further bound forward. This, of course, will depend partly on conditions abroad, on international conditions and whether the English people themselves will at last take action and arrest the appalling inflation in their own country that has taken place for a very considerable period. We wish them well in this and we hope they will be able to show the kind of attitude that is right under the circumstances.

If one looks at the European figures of the up-to-date countries of increases in industrial earnings and corresponding increases in the cost of living, I defy anyone to produce figures to show that in so far as the Government can control prices or in so far as profits are made by industries the cost of living here has gone up excessively in relation to the growth in industrial earnings. Somebody may be able to mention some country where they find this to be the case but if they look up the growth of productivity per worker they will find that that will account for it. I suppose it would be fair to compare the position here and in Great Britain. My figures are a little out of date but that makes no difference to the general situation. From 1958 to October, 1969, earnings per hour in the United Kingdom went up by an average of about 94 per cent and the cost of living in that period went up by 52 per cent. In the same period our earnings went up by 143 per cent and the cost of living went up by 62 per cent. Nobody can say that with reference to Great Britain there has been a scandalous neglect of excessive price increases here.

If we take the figures from 1964 until March, 1970—and here I have some later figures—our earnings went up by 60 per cent against an increase in the cost of living of 38 per cent. In England earnings went up by roughly 40 per cent against an increase in the cost of living of 32 per cent. That is 40 per cent against 32 per cent and 60 per cent against 38 per cent. As I say, it would take me too long to give a full analysis of this. I will simply issue a challenge. I challenge anyone to produce figures in this House which show on our part a gross neglect of or indifference to price control in so far as it is possible to control prices by Government action, or a gross inflated profit situation for the people who sell and make goods, and show that the relative figures of earnings increase and price increase are false. From my investigations I can find nothing of the kind.

We are giving other aids and help as well in order to increase industrial employment. It is well to recall the fact that we have been decentralising the Industrial Development Authority. We have been rescheduling the kind of grants that are given. We have new arrangements made to help some industries in difficulties. We have the small industries policy which has worked extremely well in my constituency. We have the new service for retraining workers some of whom will inevitably become redundant because of changes in the pattern of the industrial machinery, as in any other country. We are gradually moving forward to providing an employment service in which we find employment for people as distinct from merely paying them social welfare benefits. We continue to give the re-equipment grants for industry having to face the free trade area. In fact, we have taken many steps to stimulate industry.

In conclusion, I should like to point out that in the past 11 years the gross national product, the total increase in the volume of production, after allowing for all inflation, has been 65 per cent. This means that the standard of living of a great many of our people, a very large proportion of them has expanded by that amount in real terms. There are one or two countries in which this has been exceeded but it is a not unrespectable figure, a real increase in gross national product of 65 per cent in 11 years.

All these statistics I have given can be translated into human terms, into the employment of people, in job satisfaction, in more work available, in higher standards of living. They have equally been reflected in the growth of the social welfare services, the increases in which are very much more than the increase in the cost of living over the past ten years.

Now we face the challenge of 1971 which can be regarded as a containing operation so far as Government policy, economic policy, is concerned. It is not too soon to start thinking about what will happen next year because we have been so accustomed to continued inflation which mounted and mounted to a climax in 1970 that unless we start thinking about that now and apply an intelligent approach to it we could have disaster in 1972 by people asking for increases of incomes which they have not earned in increases of production. I do not think I need to quote any of the economists on this matter. They have made it more than clear what the general position is. So, I hope the whole community will realise the facts as they have to be faced. As I have said, I believe the Government have made the best contribution they could under the circumstances.

That must be a great speech. The Minister wrote it five years ago and he has delivered it every fortnight since.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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