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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Aug 1971

Vol. 255 No. 18

Prohibition of Forcible Entry and Occupation Bill, 1970: Allocation of Time.

I move:—

That, in the case of the Prohibition of Forcible Entry and Occupation Bill, 1970, the proceedings on the Fourth and Fifth Stages of the Bill, if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 4th August, 1971, by putting from the Chair forthwith and successively the questions necessary to bring them to a conclusion: provided that after the said hour on the said day a question shall not be put on any amendment (save an amendment set down by a Member of the Government, and the question on any such amendment shall be in the form, That the amendment be made), nor on any motion other than a motion necessary to bring the proceedings forthwith to a conclusion and then only when moved by a Member of the Government.

The Taoiseach outlined on Friday morning the reasons for the introduction of this allocation of time motion and it is not my intention to take up the time of the House any further. However, if I may add to what the Taoiseach has said, the House has spent in excess of 50 hours on the Report Stage of this Bill——

So what?

Apart from what the Taoiseach has said, I consider this a good and sufficient reason for the introduction of this motion.

On a point of order it appears that no Member of the House is entitled to put an amendment to any of the questions except a Member of the Government. Does this mean that the Minister for Justice has amendments to introduce on Report Stage?

There is an amendment in my name on the amendment sheet.

We are talking about new amendments. I have put a question to the Parliamentary Secretary.

What is the Deputy asking?

I am asking the Parliamentary Secretary or the Taoiseach, does this necessarily mean that the Minister for Justice is going to introduce amendments on the Report Stage or a withdrawal?

The Deputy has notice of anything the Minister intends doing in this connection——

On a point of order——

On a point of order, is it in order for the Deputy to interfere with the Parliamentary Secretary when he is answering a point of order?

The Parliamentary Secretary was sitting down——

(Interruptions.)

There is no intention to move any amendments that do not appear on the Order Paper.

Deputy Cruise-O'Brien spent a couple of hours sitting on the Oxford Dictionary when he was talking in this debate. I will not be subjected to the bullyboy tactics of the Deputy.

On a point of order, may I take it that if I submit a motion in the name of the Fine Gael Deputy for Dublin North-Central it will be in order in future, in view of the ruling the Chair has given?

That does not arise.

(Cavan): I rise to oppose this motion on behalf of Fine Gael. The Chair has accepted the motion standing in the name of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and I do not propose to quarrel with the ruling of the Chair. Nevertheless, I do not think it is any harm to point out at this stage that in view of the decision of the Supreme Court in the last week in the case involving the Department of Posts and Telegraphs we are moving into an era when the State and each officer of the State, including the Ceann Comhairle, may find that the State and its officers may have to answer to the Courts for failing to carry out the laws of the country.

The guillotine motion which has been proposed by the Parliamentary Secretary on instructions from the Government is a rare Parliamentary procedure. It is a good thing it is rare because the object and the effect of the guillotine motion is to restrict Parliament in its deliberations on legislative proposals of the Government. This is the second time in the last ten years that such a motion has been proposed in this House—the previous occasion was on the Marts Bill, and I believe such a resolution has only been proposed to the House on a few occasions since the foundation of the State. As I say, this is a procedure which takes away from Parliament the function of Parliament to examine, discuss and scrutinise legislation, particularly legislation of a controversial nature affecting the rights of ordinary citizens.

One would expect, therefore, that when a resolution like this is introduced in the name of the Taoiseach's Parliamentary Secretary, it would be justified on the grounds of urgency at least. I want to submit to the House that this resolution cannot be justified on the grounds of urgency. It proposes to steamroll the Prohibition of Forcible Entry and Occupation Bill, 1970, through this House not later than 10.30 tonight. It is relevant, therefore, to have a brief look at the history of this controversial piece of legislation. There is nothing urgent about it. It was introduced ostensibly to deal with a practice which many of us do not condone, the practice of illegal entry and occupation of premises or property. I want to put on the record of the House that there has been none of this in either this city or in the country generally since long before the Bill was introduced.

Hear, hear.

(Cavan): There is no urgency about this Bill. It was introduced and given a First Reading on 1st July, 1970, over 12 months ago. If it were urgent we would have expected that it would have been dealt with expeditiously by this House but, having been introduced on 1st July, 1970, we never heard of it again until 27th January, 1971, when it was offered to the House for Second Reading and the Second Stage concluded on 9th February, 1971. We never heard of it again until 21st April, 1971——

Hear, hear.

(Cavan):—— some two and a half months later, when it was again brought into the House on Committee Stage. The Committee Stage concluded on 16th June, 1971, and the controversial Report Stage did not commence until the dying days of this session, on 14th July, 1971.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

(Cavan): How, then, can the Minister, or the Taoiseach, or the Government, because they are responsible, justify depriving Parliament of its rights on the ground of urgency in respect of a Bill they introduced on 1st July, 1970, and then allowed to drag on for over 12 months? There is no urgency about this Bill. It is a try-on on the part of the Minister who wants to steamroll the Bill through the House and who is not prepared to give in.

I said that on the last occasion on which this procedure of the guillotine was introduced was in respect of the Livestock Marts Bill. In fairness to the Government at that time, it must be said that, although we disagreed violently with the Bill and although we have been since vindicated——

Hear, hear.

(Cavan):—— because the Supreme Court rejected the Bill as unconstitutional, the Government of the day were treating that measure as urgent; it was introduced in Dáil Éireann on 31st May, 1967, and the guillotine was imposed on 20th July, 1967, less than two months later. Contrast that with the procedure here: we had this Bill dragging on for well over a year and then being rushed through in the dying days of the session just before the long vacation.

Hear, hear.

(Cavan): There is no urgency about this measure. There are many measures on the Order Paper which are much more urgent, measures which have been disgracefully neglected by this Government, measures which are not of a controversial nature. For example, the Fine Gael Party put down a Bill to amend the Planning and Development Act, 1963, a Bill designed to take planning appeals out of the hands of the political head of the Department and his political friends. We debated that Bill for a considerable time and the then Minister for Local Government, Deputy Boland, said that he accepted our Bill in principle and that he would introduce his own Bill to bring about the desired change. The Local Government Planning and Development (No. 2) Bill, 1969, to deal with an abuse which is agitating the mind of every citizen, the deciding of planning appeals on a political basis, was introduced here on 16th July, 1969, and it has not yet got a Second Reading. Now it is proposed to guillotine this piece of repressive legislation, repressive certainly in respect of section 4 of the Bill.

Again, we have a section of the law directly within the sphere of the Minister for Justice; I refer to the landlord and tenant law. A Bill was introduced here by the Minister for Justice to deal with this problem. Review and amendment in many respects is required. The Bill was introduced as far back as 9th December last. The Bill has not yet got a Second Reading. Why is it not regarded as an urgent matter?

There is no urgency whatever—good, bad, or indifferent—in respect of this Bill. Any Deputy who cherishes Parliamentary democracy must be deeply concerned by the introduction of the guillotine at any time and on any measure, but we are particularly concerned about it when we find it being applied to a highly controversial piece of legislation like the Prohibition of Forcible Entry and Occupation Bill, 1970. Rarely has a more controversial piece of legislation come before this House.

Hear, hear.

(Cavan): Never has a more controversial section than section 4 of this Bill come before this House. This Bill is not only a controversial piece of legislation in the sense that the House is seriously divided on it. It is not only a controversial piece of legislation in that only the Government Party, and we know not all of the Government Party, favour it and everybody else is against it, but it is a highly controversial piece of legislation in that the entire national Press, despite a possible interpretation put on the Southern Star by the Minister for Justice, are very concerned about it. As time goes on, day after day, we have more responsible and, indeed, conservative thought coming into print against the Bill. An article from RGDATA appears in one of today's papers saying they are concerned about it.

I am not saying that the Minister for Justice or the Government are not entitled to enact controversial legislation. I am saying no such thing. What I am saying is that, unless for the gravest reason and in the most exceptional circumstances, they are not entitled to impose the guillotine on controversial legislation of this sort. It will probably be said that the Report Stage of this measure has set up a record in the length of time it has taken. The Second Stage of the Bill got a reasonable discussion. On behalf of Fine Gael I accepted the Principles behind sections 2 and 3 but I pointed out certain defects that should be eradicated such as in respect of the definition of owner and this obnoxious section 4. We hoped that on the Committee Stage the Minister would have acceded to the points made on the Second Stage and would have dealt reasonably with our amendments. It is true that on the Committee Stage the Minister did hold out hope to me in respect of the definition of "owner" with which I was so much concerned. He promised to consider it and deal with it on the Fourth Stage. We dealt very seriously with section 4 on the Committee Stage and we hoped that the Minister would have seen fit to introduce amendments on the Report Stage which would have met our objections and ensure the right of editorial comment in the national and provincial Press at least, but he did not do it.

It was clear that he came into the House on the Report Stage determined not to give an inch, in the words of famous men in the northern part of this country. He was determined to steamroll this Bill through. It was only then that we on this side determined that if he was determined to push the Bill through the House he would do so only in the full light of public opinion and after we had been satisfied that the public would know what was in the Bill and if they did not, it would not be our fault.

A Report Stage is not a complete rehash of a Bill when every line can be reinvestigated and criticised.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

(Cavan): I was saying that the guillotine is being imposed on the Fourth Stage of this Bill because the Opposition saw fit to point out clearly that the Minister had refused to meet their legitimate objections to the Bill on the Second and Committee Stages. I want to go on record as putting to the House and the country what the Report Stage is about. It is a Stage on which one can only speak on a section to which one has an amendment tabled. Unlike the Committee Stage a Member may speak only once; he can speak as often as he likes on the Committee Stage. Therefore, what is being denied to Members of the House is the right to speak once on the Report Stage or the Final Stage of the Bill. It is not a case of a Member standing up and repeating himself or obstructing; he may speak only once. The Minister and the Government are seeking this motion to deprive the Members of the House of the right to speak once on the Report Stage or on the Fifth Stage.

On the Fifth Stage we are confined to talking about what is in the Bill, the most limited type of discussion we could have. Admittedly, one could say much about what is in this Bill but we are entitled to do that; Standing Orders and legislation give that right. But that is what is being denied here.

It is most objectionable that the guillotine should be imposed on the Report Stage of a controversial Bill such as this. But the Government's performance does not end there. They are imposing the guillotine during the discussion of section 4, which creates guilt by association, a section which creates the new offence of encouraging or advocating a crime. They are stifling the Members of this House from speaking on section 4 which introduces for the first time the offence of encouraging or advocating a crime. The matter does not end there. The House is being invited to impose the guillotine during a discussion on amendment No. 9 in the names of Deputy Cooney and myself, an amendment which proposes to declare that reasonable comment on a matter of public interest in any newspaper, magazine, periodical or book shall not constitute an offence under this section.

That is the extraordinary situation we have. During the passage of this Bill through Dáil Éireann the Government have seen fit to say: "You will stop talking. We are going to steamroll it through." That is the most disgraceful performance that any free Parliament must ever have experienced. What a time this Government seek to throttle free discussion here, to muzzle the Deputies, when we are complaining, as the newspapers are complaining, that the section, if un-amended, will muzzle freedom of expression of opinion in these papers. I wonder have the Government really thought what they are doing. I wonder do they realise the proposal they are putting before this House, because a more outrageous proposal has never come before this Parliament or indeed before any other Parliament.

The Minister is on record within the last few days as saying that there is no new crime here. He is on record as saying that reasonable comment in a newspaper or magazine, et cetera on a matter of public interest cannot constitute an offence. His colleague, the Minister for Transport and Power, who treated the whole thing rather lightly, is on record as saying that reasonable comment on a matter of public interest in a newspaper, magazine, et cetera could not be an offence. That is what we want to debate here. That is the debate that is going on throughout the length and breadth of this country. Every newspaper is afraid reasonable comment will be made an offence under this section. Not alone the papers that are free and unfettered but the papers that are normally tied to the strings of the Government Party have come out with editorials expressing their fear about this section and calling, in the words of the editorial of the Irish Press, for the matter to be put beyond doubt and for a few extra words to be added to ensure the liberty of the Press.

That is what we are advocating here, and it is at this juncture in this debate that the Minister thinks fit to say: "You have done enough talking about it. I am going to trot it through the lobbies of this House with the feet of Deputies who during the Report Stage here showed by their contributions that they did not even know what section or what amendment was being dealt with. That is no way to deal with Parliament and that is no way to protect the freedom of public opinion or freedom of expression in the national newspapers.

If the Deputy knew the Minister's background, his arrogance, he would not expect anything better.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Fitzpatrick.

(Cavan): I want to go on record as saying that the taking of controversial legislation late in the month of July or in the month of July at all or, indeed, subject to the Financial Resolutions, is an abuse of Parliamentary procedure, is an attempt to nullify the powers of the Oireachtas. This proposal is doing just that. The Minister, by this guillotine, is going to march this Bill out of this House tonight, if he gets his way, and present it next week in Seanad Éireann, knowing full well that he will go into Seanad Éireann with his ears closed, determined to listen to no argument however reasonable, however relevant or however pertinent to the matter. He will go into the Seanad determined to waste public money in discussing this Bill for two or three weeks, as the Seanad are perfectly entitled to discuss it. However, the Minister will go in predetermined not to accept an amendment, not even to change one word, even the word “encourage”. He knows that if he did that he would have to do what the Government will not do, that is, recall Dáil Éireann to submit the Seanad amendments to it.

How farcical can you get? How low can one go in an attempt to steamroll one's way through the Oireachtas and at the same time reduce the second House of this Parliament to a farce. Some of the best brains in this country are in Seanad Éireann, but no matter what they say about this Bill, however they dissect it and even if they convince the Minister or the Government that this Bill should be amended, it will not be amended for the reason I have given. That is a great abuse of Oireachtas Éireann. It is a great abuse of the time of Seanad Éireann. It is a great waste of public money and it is reducing one of the Houses of this Oireachtas to a farce and giving support to the people who say the Seanad should be abolished and that it is only there to house the Minister's cronies.

It is dangerous running controversial legislation through this House at this time of year. You do not have to take my word for that. We had the Livestock Marts Bill introduced and given a First Reading on 31st May, 1967 and guillotined, one would normally say to death, but in this case into existence, guillotined into birth on 20th July, 1967, after at least a score of divisions were taken on it. What was the result of that exercise? The result was that we passed bad legislation, and every time we try to steamroll our way through here or try to do something in a hurry, we do the same thing. The Bill that was passed here last Christmas to get people to go and give evidence before a Committee of this House, which they are not doing today, was held to be unconstitutional. As in the case of the Livestock Marts Bill, that Bill was rushed through on the eve of the Christmas vacation.

At the request of the Opposition.

It was not at the request of the Opposition. That is completely wrong. It was run through to try to damn Deputies Haughey and Blaney before the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis, and Lynch law is always bad law.

Deputy Fitzpatrick is speaking.

I know, but the Minister is trying to get an untruth on the records of this House and we will not let him.

(Interruptions.)

(Cavan): The Bill that myself and the Minister for Justice are talking about was offered to the House by the Taoiseach when he was riding high, a lot higher than he is riding today, offered to us gratuitously as a way of cleaning up the mess created by the Minister's predecessor. It was held to be unconstitutional. It was brought in just after the Livestock Marts Act became an issue, an Act on which the Minister was not prepared to give in and he used every extreme, including the guillotine, to get it through the House. It was unconstitutional just as section 4 of this Bill is unconstitutional. The Minister will live to regret it. The Minister is creating a bad precedent by using the the guillotine on a discussion on the freedom of the Press and on an amendment to preserve the freedom of editorial comment in the Press. That is what the Minister is doing. There is no doubt about it.

Deputies opposite have said: "We are prepared to sit here in August and September and you will be eating your Christmas dinners here if you do not give in." We were threatened with having our Christmas dinners here and told we could go to Switzerland for the winter sports, if we could afford it. The Minister's bluff was called. The bluff of the Government was called. They were the people who had to "get out of the kitchen" because the Minister could not stand the heat. The Minister for Justice and the Government could not stand the heat. It was not the Opposition who started to squeak. It was not the Opposition, who are in receipt of salaries a lot smaller than the ministerial salaries, who cried and whined and said they wanted to go on their holidays. It was the Taoiseach and the Cabinet who decided that the heat in the Chamber was too much for them and that they would have to get out. Heat scalded them—the heat imposed on them by the editors of the newspapers and public opinion. They did not want to have it any longer because instead of this controversy easing off it was snowballing. Why did the Government not give us another week here? Many of us have other things to do. Few of us are fulltime politicians. Many of us could spend a few weeks tidying up affairs which have got into arrears because we have taken on the duty of doing our job in the Dáil. When we offered ourselves to the electorate for election to this Assembly we took on that duty. We are not abusing the processes of this House. Public opinion has not yet got tired of listening to us.

When one gives further consideration to the position one notices how sordid it is. One is inclined to ask: do the Government wish to get this measure through Dáil Éireann to avoid further embarrassing questions from Deputy Blaney at Question Time? He is a Deputy who was a former member of the Government. He has been embarrassing the Taoiseach and the Government from many angles. There has been opposition here to this Bill, and from newspapers throughout the country. Deputy Blaney is a man who knows the inner workings of the Government on a variety of topics. That is why the heat is too much and why the Government want to get out of it. That is not the decent thing to do on a Bill of this nature or on a section of a Bill of this type. We are dealing with an amendment about the freedom of the Press. The decent thing to do would have been to sit on here and take the medicine served and steamroll it through when single speeches have been heard, because nobody can speak more than once on this Stage. Why did the Minister not let the discussion on section 4 be finished? It would not have taken very much longer. If section 4 of the Bill were disposed of the rest would not take much longer. Why did the Minister not allow a free discussion on the freedom of the Press?

Six hours by one Deputy.

(Cavan): That was on the previous amendment. I know the Minister was not here all the time. That discussion was on the amendment dealing with the word “encourage”. We are now dealing with amendment No. 9 which reads as follows:

In page 3, line 35, after "offence" where it secondly appears to add "provided always and it is hereby declared that reasonable comment on a matter of public interest in any newspaper, magazine, periodical or book shall not constitute an offence under this subsection".

Three or four Deputies have spoken on that amendment and have all made reasonably short speeches. Why did the Government not give a couple of days on that? If they thought they should impose a guillotine on other Stages—while I would not agree—it would not have been as reprehensible as this.

The Deputy could be discussing that now, if he wanted to.

(Cavan): I am not going to do that until I expose the Minister. I want every Deputy in this House to have the right to speak. I spoke because I introduced the amendment. We are doing a bad day's work for this country as a whole and for this island of ours by this sort of a performance in Parliament at a time when we are deprecating the happenings in Northern Ireland. We are exposing ourselves here in a very unfavourable light. We are setting a precedent here which will be flung in our faces and in the faces of our successors.

I invite the Minister now to amend this motion which the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach has put before the House, as the Minister can do. An amendment proposed by a member of the Government can be accepted. I invite the Minister to release section 4 from the guillotine and to free section 4 for discussion so that we can have a full and free discussion on amendment No. 9. We are taking amendments Nos. 9 and 10 together.

We are not. We were originally, but there was a change.

(Cavan): Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 are substantially the same. They deal with the freedom of the Press in relation to editorial comment on such things as housing shortage, destruction of Georgian buildings, and a variety of other things. These are only the things which come to mind today. What will be the problems of tomorrow which the Press may want to ventilate? The Press will be prevented from ventilating their views on problems like drug addiction.

What has drug addiction to do with the Bill?

(Cavan): That is what the Minister does not realise, and that is why I think a long debate would be fruitful because I would hope we might get the Minister to understand what this is all about. Anything that can be the subject of a protest is closely bound up with this amendment because anything that is the subject of a protest cannot be commented on in the newspapers because they might be held—the Minister should talk to Deputy de Valera about it, he agrees with me, he is a lawyer of much greater experience than I am——

And the Minister.

We are living in shaky times.

(Cavan): Anything that can be the subject of a protest and I am not capable of knowing just what would be the subject of a protest tomorrow or next year because we are living in a society which is changing very quickly and what might be regarded——

A person gets promoted for throwing glasses of beer.

(Cavan):—— as acceptable today maybe the subject of a protest next year or the year after, that is why I am against this proposal. Anything which is the subject of a protest cannot be safely commented on in editorial comment unless the subject of the protest is denounced in the editorial comment; one could be safe enough to do it then because one would not be encouraging anything.

I am inviting the Minister to have second thoughts about it. Have full and free discussion on section 4 of this Bill and see what happens afterwards. He can renew his thinking and have another Cabinet meeting on the rest of the Bill. No self-respecting Taoiseach presiding over any self-respecting Government could or should introduce a guillotine motion to deny Parliament the right to discuss a section which proposes to muzzle the Press and to amend that section by making it clear beyond yea or nay that the Press shall not be muzzled as long as it behaves in a reasonable manner. That is the danger in this Bill and in this section. The Press could be behaving absolutely reasonably in discussing a matter of public interest and yet the effect of their activities could be to encourage in the words of the section people to be guilty of breaches of sections 2 and 3. I am honestly convinced that it has not yet sunk into this Cabinet what to do. Even at this stage, if we can bring home to the Government the enormity of this disgraceful and shameful proposal, it will have done good. We shall oppose this tooth and nail.

On a point of order, before Deputy Cluskey speaks, I would submit that this motion is not properly before the House because the provisions of Standing Order No. 40 have not been complied with.

The Chair has already ruled that the motion is properly before the House.

The Chair has ruled that the motion is properly on the Order Paper. I am submitting it is not properly before the House because the provisions of Standing Order No. 40 have not been complied with.

I will formally second the motion and reserve my right to speak later.

A Member of the Government in accordance with practice is not entitled to second a motion proposed by a Private Member of this House.

I will second it.

A Government motion is never taken as requiring a seconder; a Government motion is accepted as being moved by the Government collectively.

With respect Standing Order No. 40 provides: "A motion, or amendment shall not be debated until it has been seconded." There is no seconder in relation to a Government motion and in fact the Chair ruled today that it is deemed to have been signed by the Member who tabled it. In fact that particular motion cannot be seconded by a member of the Government and if we are to proceed in an orderly fashion it is essential that our Standing Orders be observed.

A member of the Government has a right to move or second a motion but in any event Deputy Burke has seconded it.

Puppet on a string.

I have great pleasure in seconding it.

Mr. J. Lenehan

I am "thirding" it in case anybody has any doubts.

(Interruptions.)

This to me is a very sad and serious situation. I read in one of the newspapers that this was a "tactical victory" for the Opposition. No Member of this party can have any feeling of satisfaction over what has been described as a "tactical victory". We can only feel a real sense of sorrow and indeed something akin to fear as a result of the action that has been taken by the Government with regard to this Bill. They have, not only by its introduction and its belated pursuit in this House by the Minister but by their complete denial of the rights of the Deputies of this House to discuss it adequately and properly, in my opinion dealt a far more serious blow to parliamentary democracy than they have ever done in their history—and God knows their history as far as parliamentary democracy is concerned is nothing to be proud of.

Hear, hear.

The proposals contained in section 4 have all the hallmarks of dictatorship. Can anyone, from the Minister for Justice down, in the Fianna Fáil Party tell me what country in the free world has legislation which curtails fair comment by the Press on any matter of public interest? Such legislation undoubtedly exists in Spain, Portugal, Greece and in several, if not all countries——

Russia of course.

——in Eastern Europe.

All the fascist countries.

I would yield the floor to Deputy Burke but I have no confidence in his doing anything but congratulating the Minister on his contribution.

He would do that well.

The fact remains that the provisions of the Bill curtails the Press——

We will handle him in Limerick.

That is uncharitable.

I play fire with fire at all times.

——from fair and reasonable comment. This Bill introduces a new word into the law of the land. It is a Bill which, in keeping with the guillotine, makes our law akin to French law whereby one is obliged to prove oneself innocent. The responsibility on the part of the State to prove one's guilt is being taken away. It is a Bill which would make me, and many like me, a criminal by reason of an act or statement made by another. I am proud of my life-long membership of the Workers Union of Ireland—a union with some 30,000 members. Were any individual or small group within that union to make a statement which could be interpreted by the Minister as contravening this proposed legislation, I, too, would be guilty equally unless I were to dissociate myself publicly from it. My union is not the largest union in the country and, apart from unions, there are many other associations in the country. That, then, is the type of legislation we have been discussing and in respect of which we are being guillotined.

As the Whip of my party, it was necessary for me to consider and endeavour to anticipate what the Government might do during the course of this debate. The question of a guillotine was mentioned by various members but I said to these members that not even Fianna Fáil would strike such a blow against Parliamentary democracy at this particular time. Unfortunately, I was wrong.

One wonders what brought the Government to the point where they decided to take this extreme action. In the first place there was a campaign by Fianna Fáil within the House which lead to the Minister for Justice, two weeks ago, threatening the Opposition that they would not get their holidays until September if the Bill did not go through before then. They threatened us as if we were little boys waiting to be released from boarding school. When we made it clear that we intended acting as an Opposition and intended doing what we were sent here to do by the electorate—oppose—and were not concerned unduly with our holidays, there was a campaign in the corridors of the House whereby Fianna Fáil Deputies brought ushers and other members of the staff into corners to tell them what bad boys the Opposition were, particularly the Labour Party, and that this was a tremendous blow against workers.

I would like to make it clear that as far as my party are concerned we regret genuinely any inconvenience caused to the staff of the House or to journalists or anybody else who is committed to the House. At the same time, I must make it clear that this Parliament is not for the benefit of the staff, the Press, or the Opposition but is for the benefit of the people. We shall continue to do what we regard is our duty to the electorate who sent us here.

This piece of legislation that is being steamrolled through the House will have the most serious consequences not only for the Government but for the country as a whole. At this point no less than six amendments have been discussed but not a word has been uttered either for or against them by the Government. No Member of the House will be allowed to utter a word on the Fifth Stage of the Bill. It has been said here that if this Bill goes through and is signed by the President, it will be challenged in the courts and declared unconstitutional. I do not know whether that is correct. I have no legal training but it is my opinion that the Bill will be declared unconstitutional but whether or not it is so declared it cannot be enforced. We know that there have been previous cases where this Government have applied the jackboot to ordinary people with total disregard for the rights of those people. When we tell them from these benches that even if the Bill is passed, the legislation cannot be enforced they laugh at us. Their laughter was cut short when ESB workers whom they had committed to Mountjoy were released after the Government had paid their fines and sent them home in taxis provided by the Government. That happened when it was found that that particular legislation could not be enforced. Here again they are steam-rolling through the House what is an even more oppressive piece of legislation.

Last week there were some violent clashes in the House not only between the Government and the Opposition Parties but between members of the Opposition and the Ceann Comhairle. I am still of the opinion that had Standing Orders been complied with, we could not now be discussing this motion. I am referring to Standing Order No. 53 and not Standing Order 27 which I agree has been violated by the Ceann Comhairle. Standing Order 53 states:

...and unless it shall appear to the Ceann Comhairle that such a motion is an infringement of the rights of a minority...

Surely there is no other way of interpreting this proposed legislation than as an infringement of the rights of a minority? It continues:

or that the question has not been adequately discussed.

At the time to which I am referring we were discussing amendment No. 8 in the names of Deputies Fitzpatrick and Cooney. This amendment to the most controversial section of the Bill was debated by Deputy Fitzpatrick for approximately one-and-a-half hours. The next speaker to the amendment was Deputy Dr. Cruise-O'Brien who spoke for four hours and 20 minutes— a total of five hours and 50 minutes. This section sought to introduce into the law the word "encourage", that it would be an infringement of the law to encourage a person to do a certain thing. This is a completely new departure from our existing law and from any law that has existed in this country to my knowledge. We were allowed a total of five hours and 50 minutes, with the second speaker not having concluded his case when the closure motion was introduced.

(Cavan): And we never heard a word from the Minister.

Not one word, not only from the Minister—there are 75 Deputies in the Fianna Fáil Party— but from the Government Party was uttered to justify this change which would have such far-reaching implications. The guillotine is an extreme measure. The British Parliament have always been proud of their democratic procedures. For many years the same rules exactly applied to our own deliberations, whatever value they were. We have inherited many of their traditions, many of their laws and many of their procedures. The guillotine was well established in Continental Parliaments in the 18th and 19th centuries but the guillotine was introduced for the first time into the British Parliament, and we were then subject to Britain, on the 3rd February, 1881, against Parnell on the Coercion of Ireland Act. It is ironic that on this legislation the Republican Party, in brackets, should introduce it.

I want to say something with regard to this motion which I regard as a very serious motion. It is a motion, as has been pointed out, under which the Government propose to circumscribe and destroy the rights of Deputies in this Parliament to discuss legislation. A motion of that kind, needless to say, should not be tabled and should not be pressed unless for the most cogent and serious of reasons.

We are discussing this motion today —Wednesday of this week. This day last week the Fianna Fáil Party met, one of their rare meetings I understand. It became common knowledge in the House that they considered whether they would table this motion or not and having considered it they decided —I do not know by what majority but they certainly decided—not to do so, The reason which apparently influenced them largely was that public opinion would not stand for this silencing of Parliament. That was a week ago. What has happened since? Why, on last Thursday morning, did the Taoiseach suddenly come into this House and inform the House of his intention, through his Parliamentary Secretary, of tabling this motion? Something very serious must have happened; or is it the situation that with the Government and within the Fianna Fáil Party there is now no consistent posture in any direction and that the whim or fancy of an excitable Minister can commit the party to a radical change at any particular time? Certain it is that on Wednesday a responsible decision was taken by the Fianna Fáil Party not to impose the guillotine on this Bill. Of course they could not have come to any other decision because in the course of the debates various Fianna Fáil speakers, not many of them because not many of them contributed, but those who did contribute banged their chests and said: "We will stay here as long as you stay here. We will not be outdone."

The Parliamentary Secretary.

The Parliamentary Secretary, who is now in the House, was absolutely crystal clear. In fact I thought he made an extremely good speech.

On that particular point.

Yes. I went along with the sentiments he was expressing. He was quite clear that, so far as he was concerned, so far as the Fianna Fáil Party was concerned—of course he had just come out from the meeting to announce this decision to the House in effect—they would stay here; they realised the duty of the Opposition; they realised how serious this measure was; they realised how essential it was that it be discussed carefully and responsibly by Parliament and, therefore, said the Parliamentary Secretary, there will be no curb, no restriction, no limit, no prohibition on the functioning of this Parliament as a responsible, deliberative assembly. Time quote: I would say about 5.20 this day week.

What happened? Is it that unbeknownst to his colleagues and unbeknownst to Members of his party, the Minister for Justice blew his top, lost his cool, and committed the Fianna Fáil Party to swallow its own decision. If that is so it appears to me that the orderly discussion of measures in this House is being jeopardised. There is a belief, held by many Deputies and I could number myself among them, that Standing Orders no longer operate as they should, as the shield and the protector of the individual Deputy in this House. I have seen, too often, Standing Orders being brushed aside at times of heat, at times of temptation as if they did not say what they clearly said, brushed aside to deprive Deputies of their right freely to express their views in this House. That is the forerunner of absolute anarchy. If we permit that kind of situation further to deteriorate, I regret it very much but I think we will all have to conclude that this assembly ceases to have any function. If, on top of that, we have a position in which individual Ministers are permitted to run around the place like so many jacksnipes, descending here for one moment and away on another subject in another moment, making decisions and committing their colleagues to a course of action without responsible consideration then a state of anarchy will exist. This is what has happened now and this is the reason we are confronted with this motion.

It is no harm to remind the House that these Standing Orders were framed and brought into being in the midst of fire and brimstone. They were introduced at a time when the people who framed them knew how essential it was to have a free Parliament in which Deputies could speak freely, knowing that in accordance with the right they received from their constituents the Ceann Comhairle, armed with these Standing Orders, would protect them against any aggressive majority.

Our Standing Orders were framed and tabled 50 years ago and they have stood the test of time. These were the Standing Orders in operation when threats were made against the functioning of this Parliament. Many Deputies who were elected freely in general elections boycotted Parliament but when eventually they came into this House in 1927 these were the Standing Orders that were in operation. Unchanged, they have been found well capable of ensuring the rights of every section, of every Deputy and of every party. They were graced and presided over by the finest Ceann Comhairle our Parliament could have had at that time—I refer to Professor Michael Hayes.

From 1927, through the turbulent period to 1932, when challenge after challenge came from the Ceann Comhairle's right side against the Government in those days there was never a suggestion that the guillotine be applied. There was never a suggestion that because it was inconvenient or awkward or politically disadvantageous that Deputies should be prevented from expressing sincerely-held views. The ordinary rules applied. There are only two rules in our Standing Orders which are designed to restrict debate; one of these is Order No. 54. This Standing Order states:

At any stage of a debate, other than a debate on any stage of a Bill, a Member may move (the assent of the Chair not being withheld) "That the Dáil proceed to the next business",

This Order has been used frequently in this House but it applies only to matters under discussion which do not relate to legislation. I should imagine that under this Standing Order the Chair would give consent only if the Chair considered that the matter before the House had been fully discussed with particular regard to the rights of the minority. Incidentally, the minority in this sense means the minority inside the House——

Mr. J. Lenehan

Deputy FitzGerald tried to stop me talking on an occasion recently. I am glad to see the Deputy does not share the same view as Deputy FitzGerald.

The Standing Order that deals with legislation is Order No. 53 and all Deputies should learn this Standing Order by heart. Standing Order No. 53 states:

(1) After a question (except a question already barred from debate under the Standing Orders) has been proposed from the Chair either in the Dáil, or in a Committee of the whole Dáil, a Member may claim to move, "That the question be now put", and unless it shall appear to the Ceann Comhairle that such a motion is an infringement of the rights of a minority, or that the question has not been adequately discussed, or that the motion is otherwise an abuse of these Standing Orders, the question, "That the question be now put", shall be put forthwith, and decided without amendment or debate.

This is used in relation to legislation and Deputies will note that it can operate only when there is a question before the House proposed by the Chair. It does not, and cannot, operate otherwise. This was pointed out clearly in relation to a similar Order in the British House of Commons more than 80 years ago and it was then demonstrated clearly that the closure of debate could only apply when a question was proposed by the Chair.

We know a question is proposed by the Chair only in the special cases where there has already been a full debate in the House. For instance, it does not arise on the First Reading of a Bill because that is a question proposed by the mover of the Bill. It does not arise on the Second Stage because this Stage is moved by the mover or proposer of the Bill. On the Committee Stage it does arise quite frequently. It arises after amendments have been tabled, moved and debated by the Dáil in Committee. At the end of the discussion on the amendments and the debate thereon when the amendments have been decided by the Committee of the House, the Ceann Comhairle— or Chairman, as he is called under Standing Orders—says: "The question is: `That the section stand part of the Bill'." Everyone knows it is common practice for a Deputy to say at this stage "On the section..." and on the question, "That the section stand part of the Bill" there may be repetition of a debate which has taken place on the amendments. It is in those circumstances that Order No. 53 comes into operation because at that stage the Chair may entertain a motion from some other Deputy "That the question be now put." The question is that the section under discussion stand part of the Bill. As I understand it, and as I believe parliamentarians for over 100 years have understood it, that is the effect of a closure under Standing Order No. 53.

The next stage at which it arises is on the Fifth Stage of a Bill when the Chair proposes the question: "That the Bill do now pass." At that stage any Deputy can say: "On the passage of the Bill I wish to speak." He can speak then, in accordance with Standing Orders, for as long as he likes on the contents of the Bill. There may be circumstances in which a short Bill, a one or two section Bill, has been amply discussed and, on the question that the Bill do now pass, the Chair may entertain a motion by some other Deputy that the question be put. Those are the only circumstances which I have been able to find in accordance with our Standing Orders in which the closure applies. I am perfectly aware that in error—and I say grave and profound error—on two previous occasions the Chair has acted otherwise. I should not like this to pass without comment at this stage in relation to this motion. What I believe to have been well-intentioned but nevertheless erroneous decisions of the past should not now gather any sanctity by reason of their repetition in breach of Standing Order No. 53.

I do not think it should be really necessary for a member of the Irish Parliament to emphasise the obvious in this fashion. It was precisely because closure did not apply as a procedure in all circumstances that, in the British House of Commons in the last century, to deal with the organised, disciplined, responsible action of the Irish Parliamentary Party, some bright genius of a British Government Minister decided on what they dubbed the guillotine immediately because of its associations with France and because it was used in the French Parliament. It was, of course, an allocation of time motion. The allocation of time motion, the guillotine, was introduced, as Deputy Cluskey has reminded us, in 1881 in the British House of Commons to prevent Irish members from talking about coercion in Ireland. They could not prevent them under the closure. They could not do it under Standing Orders, which were the same then as they are now, and they brought in the guillotine for the particular purpose of preventing Irish members of the British Parliament from acting as they wished as representatives of the people.

It is really a matter for despair and despondency that at this stage in our Parliament this Government should be using this tactic: using the guillotine and using it under such strange circumstances. A week ago they had decided responsibly not to do this. That decision was announced at about 5.30 p.m. this day week by the Parliamentary Secretary. Nevertheless, the following morning the Taoiseach came into the House to announce his intention to table this motion. This means that, in a fit of anger, in a fit of petulance with some ill-assorted motives, somebody decided to do this. Why? Was it to punish the Opposition? Was it to quell the mounting opposition outside the House to section 4 of the Bill? Was it to try to dam and retard the growing unpopularity of the Government in relation to this measure? There was some such motive behind it because we were told time and time again that time did not matter, that holidays did not matter, that the Government were as committed as we were to sitting here throughout the long hot summer days. We were told there would be no obstacle in the way of debate. Nevertheless, suddenly, for some reason, this strange decision was taken on a matter of fundamental importance to Deputies.

I question that motive. It will lead to an irresponsible situation in this House if merely because a Bill is hotly contested, merely because it is controversial, merely because it arouses and has aroused indignation inside and outside the House, merely because each day it is becoming more and more embarrassing to the Government, the Government decide to grasp the nettle and to grasp it in such a way that all further discussion is prohibited, and to table a motion of this kind. I think that is wrong and that it is harming Parliament.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle——

Mr. J. Lenehan

Are there no rights in this House? Remember we have rights too.

——this motion before the House shows all the indications of a Government running in panic from a measure of which they are afraid. The Government fully realise now all the serious implications of this Bill. They also realised the possible implications early last year when they decided to introduce it.

The Bill was introduced into this House on 1st July, 1970. I feel at any rate that the Government deliberately prolonged the taking of the Second Stage until January of this year. The other Stages were deliberately delayed in order to create a situation coming up to the time of the Recess in which the Bill would have to be rushed through the House and the various sections of the Bill would not get the discussion and the examination which they merit. This was a well-worked out plan by the Government. This is not the first occasion on which they tried this type of manoeuvre. Of course, the plan went wrong somewhere so far as the Government were concerned.

They discovered that the measure was getting very minute examination by the Opposition, that all the bad aspects of the Bill were being highlighted, and that the news media were awake to the serious implications of the Bill. When it became obvious that the Opposition would pursue their opposition to each section very diligently, and when the Government discovered that we were not bluffing on this side of the House—the Government were engaging in a bluff—and when they discovered how seriously the ordinary man in the street was taking this measure as well as Deputies on this side of the House they suddenly decided to cut short the debate and in that way tried to save their faces because they felt, and they knew, that a guillotine motion such as this would have an adverse affect on themselves. Nevertheless they balanced it up and judged, and I think judged rightly, that a continuation of the debate on the Bill, and particularly on the amendment before the House at the time of this guillotine, and further consideration of these amendments would have a far worse effect on the Government than the guillotine motion. Because of that, we are here this evening debating this extremely rare type of motion.

It is unfortunate, too, that at this point in time in our history, when we have to say so much, and do say so much, about the rights of minorities, even though the Opposition on this side of the House represent 50 per cent of the electorate we are nevertheless treated in almost the same way as the Unionist Party treat their Opposition in Stormont. This indeed is the effect which this motion has on the Opposition here, that we are being put into the same position and being treated with the same kind of justice as that with which the Opposition Parties in Stormont have been treated over a long period.

Another reason for this motion is the fact that the Government have completely failed to justify the necessity for the Bill. They have failed in spite of their very severe persuasion of their Deputies to get them to come in and speak in favour of the Bill. They have failed utterly in that also. Time and time again during the debate we had the threat that speaker after speaker would be put in and that Government speaker would follow Opposition speaker, but in this again they have failed miserably simply because they were not able to justify the proposals in the Bill. Their best weapon, therefore, when they had not got arguments to put forward in favour of the Bill, and particularly section 4, was this motion. I think it is very relevant and important to note the stage at which this guillotine motion was introduced. It has been introduced on the most crucial section of the Bill, the most important section, and because the Government were themselves embarrassed, and very embarrassed on this section, and because they found it so difficult to get their own members to come in and speak in favour of it, they decided that the best way out for them was to introduce this guillotine motion.

It is a pity the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government has left, because I was in the House this night last week when he was speaking, and I spoke after him, and Deputy Cunningham on that occasion, 28th July, 1971, at column 2759 of volume 255, said:

All of us will agree that a Government should stay here until legislation is fully discussed and debated and until laws which are necessary in the eyes of the Government are enacted, especially when you have a democratically-elected Government and a Government who have been in office for quite a number of years and who have put through this House during their long term of office all kinds of legislation. Admittedly, some of it was challenged as being unconstitutional—this is fair enough. I agree that this has happened and can happen again. I do not think that any Government, having made provision in a Bill to legislate for certain offences, should be panicked by the threat—that is probably a rather strong word; I admit it is—by the statement of Deputy Tully, for whom I have the highest regard. I do not regard as a threat his statement that he will stay here while we will stay here.

Deputy Cunningham's view on last Wednesday night was that the Government should not be panicked by the threat of having to stay here for a few weeks debating this measure, and of course how right he was, but a short time after that, a short few hours after, we saw the Minister for Justice fleeing in full panic and introducing a closure motion on amendment No. 9, and then we had the Taoiseach coming in last Friday morning and intimating that he was going to introduce this motion here today. I have a number of amendments still to be discussed on this Bill. It is obvious that if this motion goes through these amendments will not be discussed, that we will not get an opportunity of making a case for them and of course the Government will not get an opportunity of making a case against them.

Here again we can only assume that they are unable and unwilling to make any case against these amendments that they are unable or unwilling to continue the debate on section 4 and the amendment, a very important amendment, still to come on section 4. The other amendments already disposed of have been dealt with fairly adequately, but there are many aspects of the Bill which should be debated and discussed on the Fifth Stage. To have a measure of this kind, a measure which contains the provisions which this Forcible Entry Bill contains, pass through this House without all the amendments on Report Stage and all the discussion on the Fifth Stage fully gone into is extremely bad. This is a Bill to which, on Committee Stage, there were relatively few amendments, and even on Report Stage, the amendments were relatively few, but they were amendments which, as far as the Government were concerned, showed up the weaknesses of the Bill, and because of that full consideration of the Bill would not be in the Government's best interest.

I do not know who or what prompted the Government to bring in this closure motion because even the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, who is the Chief Whip, said he was prepared to stay, and I would imagine that he is in touch with his Deputies many times every day and he knows how they feel. On a number of occasions he also said in this House that they were all prepared to stay here to have this Bill fully discussed and he said they were going to put in speaker for speaker. I do not think he was chancing his arm when he said that. I believe he had good reason to say it. What has happened to all these brave men who will now march through the Division Lobby some time this evening to end any further debate in this House on this measure?

When debate has to be limited in this House, when it has to be cut short and when it appears to the people outside this House that it is not possible to have a full debate in this House it leads to all types of activity on the streets, whether it be protest marches, and their after-effects, or other street activities. The Government are allowing things to go in this direction because they are preventing the democratically elected representatives from discussing the legislation which the Government have introduced here. The only alternative which will appear to a lot of people will be that they will have to become street politicians and hope to pressure the Government and public opinion by taking action on the streets.

We do not want this to happen and that is why we are concerned about this guillotine motion. We are concerned that legislation should be fully discussed and not alone that it should be fully discussed but that it should appear to be fully discussed in this House and that the Government should not attempt, no matter how pressing the holidays might be to some of them, or what commitment they might have, to limit debate in any way. When the Government sought election they put themselves at the complete service of the people and they should be prepared to remain in this House until this legislation has been fully examined.

We do not want to see the functions of this Parliament taken out of this House. We want to do the job which has to be done here. There is no urgency attaching to the Forcible Entry Bill. This Bill has created a good deal of public concern and public opinion has been totally against it. A guillotine motion on such a Bill can be interpreted in only one way, that the Government are in a state of panic, that they realise the weakness of this proposed legislation and they have failed utterly to justify the provisions of this Bill, particularly those of section 4.

Mr. J. Lenehan

I am glad the Ceann Comhairle has upheld the right of Independent Deputies to speak in this House. We have people here talking about freedom of the Press, freedom of this, that and the other thing. I am ten years in this House and the first time I ever saw an attempt being made to prevent an Independent Deputy from speaking was some weeks ago. This attempt, which was not successful, to prevent an Independent Deputy from speaking was made by one of those gentlemen who has sought to make political propaganda out of this Bill. However, on that occasion, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle took my side. Now we find this Deputy talking about freedom of this and freedom of that.

Freedom is where you find it. We hear talk about freedom of the Press. African monkeys have not any great respect for papers, no matter what type they are, and if anyone tries to do anything to them they make the greatest amount of noise known in any part of the world. I believe that is democracy but I have never heard so many allegedly democratically minded people being so long-winded trying to uphold democracy. They speak insincerely because they know that what they say is in the Bill and what is actually in the Bill are two entirely different matters. They know, as well as I do, that the Government would never, by any stretch of imagination, be undemocratic towards anything. I am not the strongest supporter of the Government but after seeing the type of Government which went before this Government and during the interval when they were not in power I have no option in the interests of my own people but to support the Government.

I support the Government on this Bill and I want to say that 99 per cent of the people from the constituency I represent unhesitatingly support the Government on this Bill. Do those pseudo-aesthetes, masquerading as Labour Deputies, own any property? Would they like to see their property taken over by squatters or by anybody else? Of course they would not, but where cheap political publicity comes into the matter they are delighted to take any advantage they can of an opportunity like this to try to get that type of cheap publicity for themselves and for their 17 parties because they are not all one party. These are the very same people who are today, and who have been for the last few weeks, talking about democracy, about political repression and the effects of this Bill. These are the very same people who only a very short time ago tried to prevent newspaper reporters from attending a rugby match. These are the famous over-night democrats, the instantaneous democrats of today. They are so crazy that they believe the public are gullible and that they forget what they have read, seen or heard, but the public are not gullible. If there are such gullible people in the country today they must be very close to this House, if they are not inside it.

That is my candid opinion. I know those people well and if they think the kind of thing they have been trying to put across will carry any weight they have another think coming. There is very little truth in most of the statements made by Opposition Deputies. They have come here to filibuster the Bill and that is all. They did the same on the Land Bill and they tried to get the people in the Midlands to believe that if Deputy Moran got the Bill through he would lead the people of Mayo into the promised land of the Midlands. Of course he had no such intention. That Bill was probably the most innocuous ever to be put through the House, just as this Bill will be and as the people who have been debating it and demonstrating against it will find out.

These Bills when they become Acts are never enforced. For instance, supposing someone went now to enforce the Intoxicating Liquor Acts in the way they should be enforced, the Government would be bankrupt in three weeks. That is true. No Government in any democratic country have ever enforced Acts of this kind. Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries—I am not referring to my friend over there—have a mania for producing all the paper work they can, perhaps with the idea of getting themselves into history by the volumes of books in the Library and in the various offices here.

I should be surprised if many Deputies here know a word of what is in this Bill. How many Deputies know a single section of the Companies Act which went through here in a few hours. As I have said, I doubt if most Deputies know one word of what is in this Bill. The Companies Bill went through the House and it left here as one of the biggest Acts ever to go through. I should like to know how many Deputies read even one page.

I hope we are not discussing it all over again.

Mr. J. Lenehan

I was giving a few reasoned examples. I remember reading a subsection of the Finance Act and my good friend, Dr. Ryan, was Minister at the time. I asked him and I asked every Deputy in the House to explain the subsection and they admitted they could not. They said that was what the draftsman had decided should be written. All the High Court judges in Europe could not interpret it. It will be the same with this Bill. If it goes into the High Court, for the sake of all the lawyers on this side of the House some judge will turn it one way and another fellow will turn it the other way.

We are reaching the end of the filibuster and it is about time. Any of us who have homes to go to should go home. We should get out of here for a while, anyway. This has been going on continuously and most of the Deputies who have been arguing have been here a very short time. They certainly will not be here long enough to earn their pensions. They are the Deputies who have made the most noise.

I read this Bill to make sure that there is nothing wrong with it. I read it a second time to make doubly sure. Nobody in my constituency barring three Deputies and a Senator—less than 1 per cent of the people—could find anything wrong with it and they did so for the sake of talking. My opinion is that it is not now this Bill should have been brought in. However, I believe there was ample legislation already to deal with a lot of the blackguardism that is going on but that legislation was not enforced in the way it should have been. If it had been enforced there would not have been any need for this Bill. Although it is urgently needed it will have very little effect in the long run.

Any Deputy who cannot get a laugh without a monkey puzzle has not very much to do. When he is in the House as long as I am he will not be laughing. He is like the pseudo-aesthete chancers of Dublin city. He should go to the people and see what they have to say and he will not laugh half as loudly. Opposition to this Bill is only a racket. Of course there has been no Opposition since 1957. Any time they have brought the Government close to defeat has been accidental. Most of the amendments for this Bill have been either childish or senile and no Government would seriously consider them.

We have had references to the French Revolution and we have had other codology during the past few weeks. They are the people who will come back here in October and talk about France and the guillotine as the greatest example of republicanism in the world. There has been all this ballyhoo about the guillotine. We know that politicians throughout the world have to exploit the moment. They cannot afford to think of the future and some of them do not wish to think of the past. I do not blame people because of this but I think the attitude displayed towards this Bill should be thrown overboard. It has been a waste of the time of this House when the House could be usefully engaged otherwise.

Deputies have been discussing a few words in a Bill which is unlikely ever to be enforced. However, the political gimmick had to go on. It has gone on for a long time now. I do not think any property owner would be anxious to see a position obtaining in which anybody could walk in and take over that property without any reference to him, good, bad, or indifferent. I cannot imagine that there is anybody who would not object to any infringement of his rights as a property owner. Even the unfortunate tinkers are put out of sandpits and quarries, very often by people who do not own the quarries and the sandpits. The tinkers were burned out in Galway.

Are these people here trying to convince us that they believe what they say? I do not believe a word of what they say. I know it would be unparliamentary to call a Deputy a liar but I do not believe the statements which have been made. I do not believe these people believe that any action that could have dire results will be taken against newspaper men or anybody else, not even the squatters. If the tinkers cannot go into sandpits and quarries I cannot see why certain people should be allowed to go in and take over the Georgian houses in this city. I believe the Georgian houses should have been blown up long ago. There are gentlemen who preach democracy; they are the people who claim that eastern European countries are democratic. They claim that Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Rumania and even Russia are democratic countries and we are not a democracy. Whom do they think they are codding? An earlier Land Bill showed how farcical this attitude was. Possibly the Government were a little lax in not insisting that the Bill should be a little bit more realistic than it was.

I have one final point. I will not spend five hours talking here. Any man who cannot say what he has to say in 15 minutes has nothing to say and is not worth listening to. I am not one of those. There is one thing to which I want to draw attention. I would be inclined to support most people where an effort is made to take over fisheries. These fisheries were stolen from us in days gone by. Foreigners made fortunes out of them and left our own people in a state akin to slavery along the banks of those fisheries.

That matter would arise for discussion on a section of the Bill. We are not discussing fisheries. We are discussing the motion before the House.

We would like to know on which side the Deputy is coming down.

Deputy Lenehan is now encouraging and advocating.

But he will vote for the Bill all the same.

Mr. J. Lenehan

While I support the Bill, I would like to see more effort being made within the terms of the Bill to take over the fisheries from these British landlords. I do not see any reason for victimising people who wish to take control of these fisheries and, if there is any victimisation, I reserve my right to take the necessary steps to help protect these people. As the Bill stands, I unreservedly support it.

I believe this motion is out of order. I believe it is wrong. A considerable amount of thought and work went into the preparation of the amendments to this Bill.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Any legislation passed by this House automatically goes on the Statute Book and, because it does, it is imperative that it should be fully considered here before it goes on the Statute Book.

Sir, having regard to the fact that this motion with regard to the allocation of time has now been adequately discussed, I claim that the question should now be put. Deputies have had an opportunity of discussing it at considerable length. This is an allocation of time motion. It is important that the remaining time until 10.30 be given to the remaining Stages of the Bill.

I have been in the House for the past four days——

I accept the claim and I am putting the question: That the question be now put.

Question put.

Sílim go bhfuil an tairiscint rite. I think the motion is carried.

Deputies

Votáil.

On a point of order, I understood Dáil Éireann was discussing the motion proposed by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach which you ruled was on the Order Paper this morning standing in the name of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach. That ruling was questioned but you ruled it to be in order and to have been on the Order Paper in his name. I do not understand how under Standing Order No. 53 you propose to accept a closure motion because there is no question before this House now proposed from the Chair. It seems clear that acceptance of a closure motion in relation to a motion proposed by a Member of this House other than the Chair is contrary to Standing Order No. 53.

The fact that the Chair called upon members to speak is tantamount to that motion being proposed by the Chair and it is thus properly before the House.

You did not call him. He got up and interrupted.

I called No. 3.

May I indicate to you that could not be so because under Standing Order 41 it is provided that if a Member does not move the motion which stands in his name such motion lapses unless moved by some other Member. The position then was that if the Parliamentary Secretary did not move his motion and no other Member moved it on his behalf it would have lapsed so that the question before the House arose from a motion by the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Andrews. There is no question proposed by the Chair and, accordingly, I question how Standing Order No.53 can be operated to permit a closure. It is in my view quite inappropriate and I raise it in the best interests of this Dáil.

The very same point was raised last week which the Deputy is now raising and the Chair pointed out that, having called a Deputy to speak to a motion, the Chair is, in fact proposing that motion to the House.

Does that mean that Standing Order No. 41 is not necessary? Suppose the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Andrews, had been absent and that the Chair had called on him to move his motion and that no other Member offered to do so, does that mean that the Chair would itself propose a guillotine or closure of the debate?

I should hope not. I should hope the Chair would be impartial.

This is a hypothetical argument that does not arise.

It only arises from the confusion which appears to exist in the Chair.

There is no confusion; it is a very simple matter.

It is a perfectly simple matter. The Standing Orders of the House have been defied.

There can be no discussion at this stage.

(Interruptions.)

We shall not put up with this very much longer. Surely we are entitled to ask a question. We have been sufficiently subjected to jackboot tactics last week without being denied the right to ask a question of the Chair.

A Deputy

There was no Labour Deputy in the House when the Question was being put.

(Interruptions.)

Order. Do I understand Deputy Corish wishes to put a question to the Chair?

It is in order and you must take it.

(Interruptions.)

So far as this second guillotine is concerned, this double-edged weapon to undermine this democratic institution, might I ask if in your opinion it was proper and correct that Deputy Enright should be interrupted in his speech, which had commenced only a matter of three or four minutes before? Do you also consider that the subject has been adequately discussed in view of the fact that we had no real explanation of the motion from the Parliamentary Secretary and no reply to the debate that has gone on here since 4.10 p.m. today?

I consider that the matter has been adequately discussed.

(Interruptions.)

You are making a joke of this Parliament.

On a point of order, there is a great reluctance——

(Interruptions.)
The Dáil divided: Tá, 67; Níl, 58.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Blaney, Neil.
  • Boylan, Terence.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard C.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Delap, Patrick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Foley, Desmond.
  • Forde, Paddy.
  • French, Seán.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lenehan, Joseph.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Loughnane, William A.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Meaney, Thomas.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Des.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Sheridan, Joseph.
  • Sherwin, Seán.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barry, Peter.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Browne, Noel.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Joan.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Burton, Philip.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Cott, Gerard.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Reilly, Paddy.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Fox, Billy.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Lawrence.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Thornley, David.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers: Tá: Deputies Andrews and S. Browne; Níl: Deputies L'Estrange and Kavanagh.
Question declared carried.

I am putting the question that Motion No. 3 in the name of the Parliamentary Secretary be agreed to.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 67; Níl, 59.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Blaney, Neil.
  • Boylan, Terence.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard C.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Delap, Patrick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Foley, Desmond.
  • Forde, Paddy.
  • French, Seán.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lenehan, Joseph.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Loughnane, William A.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Meaney, Thomas.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Des.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Sheridan, Joseph.
  • Sherwin, Seán.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barry, Peter.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Browne, Noel.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Joan.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Burton, Philip.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Cott, Gerard.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating Justin.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Lawrence.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Connell, John F.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Fox, Billy.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Reilly, Paddy.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Thornley, David.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers: Tá: Deputies Andrews and S. Browne; Níl: Deputies L'Estrange and Kavanagh.
Question declared carried.
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