asked the Minister for Education if the architects and other consultants for the community schools have been appointed; and, if so, if he will give particulars.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Community Schools.
48.
The planning and building of these schools is being dealt with as part of a programme which involves rationalisation in planning, bulk purchasing, serial tendering, et cetera, designed to effect very considerable savings in costs. This is being handled by a special project unit in my Department assisted by an appointed firm of consultants, Building Design Consultants of Cork.
49.
asked the Minister for Education if he is aware of the protest by a number of clergymen of many denominations concerning the proposed community school at Tallaght, County Dublin; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I am aware of the petition to which the Deputy refers. I can attach no more importance to it than the fact that it represents the views of those who signed it.
I am not quite sure what the reply was. Would the Minister repeat the reply?
I am aware of the petition to which the Deputy refers. I can attach no more importance to it than the fact that it represents the views of those who signed it.
Dictatorship.
I am beyond mystification as to what the Minister means by that reply. Could he please elaborate?
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Power is not Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister. He is working very hard at it.
I am interested.
Thank you for declaring your interest.
Could the Minister elaborate on what he means by that rather insulting reply?
He means to be insulting.
I do not see that there is any need for me to elaborate on the reply which is not insulting and is not intended to be insulting. I am not noted for being insulting in this House. All I can say is that these people represent nobody except themselves.
Question No. 50.
If the Minister would read out to the House the names and titles of those who signed the petition to the President—and I am surprised that the Minister should treat a petition to the President in this manner; a one-sentence dismissal—and if he would read out the statements following the name of each person he would clearly understand that they do not speak merely for themselves, but as respected individuals in their respective communities and that, by and large, they reflect a certain community attitude towards what I might call the bigoted and ignorant reaction of the Minister to this matter.
I am not suggesting that these gentlemen are not respected members of the community. What I do say is that they are representing themselves and nobody else.
Would the Minister agree that the terms in which he refers to their statement are somewhat different from the terms he used in referring to a statement by the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin?
Is the Minister not aware of the feeling in the community in South County Dublin in relation to this matter? Does he pretend to be ignorant about it?
I am aware of the emotionalism which has been engendered for specific reasons.
There is nothing emotional about it.
They are shocked.
It is sectarianism of the lowest sort.
Is it not a fact—and the Minister must know it is a fact— that this letter represents the very deep concern felt by a number of clergymen of all denominations and individual citizens because the community schools are not developing along non-sectarian lines but on very narrow Catholic sectarian lines? Not only is it unfair to the minority here but it must have a very grave and deleterious effect on the attempt by our people to establish a united Ireland into which the Protestant minority could safely enter without fear of the sectarianism implicit in this proposal.
I do not accept at all that the community schools are being developed along sectarian lines.
Would the Minister agree that we should be grateful to be living in a country where mem- bers of religious communities can act together in this constructive fashion with a common Christian interest? Would the Minister agree that in a country marked by so much religious discord—and with the great tragedy in the North of Ireland because of the divisions in the community—his attitude does not give much grounds for confidence amongst Protestants about the safety of their civil rights in a United Ireland.
Is not Paisley right? Is not Faulkner right? This is a sectarian State.
The minority in this part of the country are very well aware of the fact that they have full citizens' rights here.
We will come to that on Question No. 59 and the Minister will see what they think of their rights.
50.
asked the Minister for Education what progress had been made with his proposals for community schools in 25 towns since this proposal was discussed by officials of his Department at public meetings with people in five of these towns.
The implementation of these proposals will be a gradual process. However, the progress which is being achieved makes it clear that the degree of acceptance of the community school proposals is now such as will ensure their speedy implementation.
Can the Minister say in how many cases have his proposals to establish community schools been accepted by the interests concerned?
I am making very considerable progress in relation to community schools generally. From the reactions I am getting I am sure that it will be possible speedily to implement my proposals which are, of course, for the benefit of the children of the country in general.
Will the Minister answer my question? In how many of the 25 towns have his proposals been accepted?
I told the Deputy already that this is a gradual process.
They have not been accepted yet?
I am making very considerable progress.
The Minister is hoping.
In relation to the community schools issue, has it not now been established without any fear of contradiction that the effective Minister for Education in the Irish Government is the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. McQuaid?
That is a separate question.
That suggestion is beneath contempt.
The Minister speaks of gradual progress being made. Could he quantify it?
Question No. 51.
51.
asked the Minister for Education whether the proposed advisory councils in community schools would have functions relating to the day-to-day running of the schools as recently stated by his Parliamentary Secretary in Tallaght, County Dublin; and, if so, what these functions would be.
The proposed advisory councils, which will consist of the principal, vice-principals and representatives of the teaching staff, will give advice on matters relating to the day-to-day running of the school. The council will also advise on the overall educational policy and aims of the school. The formulation of the detailed functions of the council will be a matter for the board of management within the terms of this general directive.
Is the Minister saying, therefore, that their functions will be purely advisory and that they will not have any functions in relation to the day-to-day running of the school?
Their function will be advisory. There is no doubt in my mind but that the management will take particular note of the advice tendered to them by this type of advisory council.
Will there be any statutory standard for the heed they will take of that advice?
There is no statutory basis for anything they are doing at the moment.
Surely Deputy O'Leary will accept that if an advisory council consisting of the principal, the vice-principals and representatives of the teaching staff give advice to the board of management, this advice will generally be acceptable.
Not if there is a wastepaper basket handy.
Is the Minister aware that what has been suggested here is entirely contrary to the idea of having a board of management? What is being suggested here is that the Minister should tell the management what to do which, so far as I am concerned, is in direct opposition to what I think the board of management should be doing themselves.
Was the Parliamentary Secretary correct in what he stated in Tallaght?
I have already given the Deputy my reply.
It is quite different from what the Parliamentary Secretary said.
Of course it is not. Deputy FitzGerald is constantly hair-splitting on these matters.
I wrote down what he said.
These things are clearly understood by the people of the country. It is only Deputies like Deputy FitzGerald who want to split hairs.
The Minister is splitting the country.
I wrote down what he said and the Minister is now repudiating him.
Order.
The Minister is shivering in his trousers.
That is one thing that can never be said about this Minister.
He is afraid of his life of the civil servants.
He is afraid of more than the civil servants.
I am taking particular note of the direction from which the attack is coming.
52.
asked the Minister for Education why he proposed to introduce segregation of the sexes in the proposed new community school units in Tallaght, County Dublin in view of the fact that the presence of boys and girls in the same school unit in Tallaght and of co-education in some classes had not given rise to any problems and that segregation was not being sought by the parents of the pupils in question.
The manner in which the school will be organised is one for the board of management and I do not propose to interfere in any way with their discretion in the matter.
Would the Minister not agree that before the board of management were appointed it was announced that the school would not be co-educational. If it is a matter for the board of management, how was anybody authorised to make this announcement before they were appointed?
I have given the Deputy the reply. In his question the Deputy mentioned that there is co-education in only some classes at the moment and I have no doubt that the situation in the community school will be that there will be co-education, particularly at leaving certificate level in the case of subjects for which there will be less demand. I am stating clearly now that the matter is one for the board of management and I will not go into that any deeper.
Would the Minister not agree that at this meeting in Tallaght, his Parliamentary Secretary, in my presence, said in regard to this question that while co-education might be introduced in due course it would not operate in the first instance and that the existing measure of co-education in the vocational school would be abandoned? If what the Minister says now is correct, how could the Parliamentary Secretary do that before the establishment of the management body?
The situation is that we have no doctrinaire situation in relation to co-education. The Deputy was very careful to phrase his question in a certain way so as to mention co-education in some classes. I have no doubt but that there will be co-education in some classes in the community school.
From the outset?
Is the Minister aware of the total disapproval of some of the ecclesiastical authorities of co-education as practised in many of the vocational schools in Dublin? Indeed, statements have been made to me in relation to my own constituency to the effect that co-education will be discontinued in vocational schools because it is not acceptable. The Minister is now putting it into operation in Tallaght because before the board of management was set up it was stated that it would not be co-educational, so we are back to square one.
I have stated already that the matter is one for the board of management but some Deputies do not like this.
(Interruptions.)
Is it not a fact that all enlightened educationalists believe now that there should be co-education right through from primary school to the university.
That is not so. There is no clear agreement among educationalists as to the value or otherwise of co-education.
Question No. 53.
Our sick society can be attributed to segregation.
53.
asked the Minister for Education whether he proposes to accept the suggestion that the parents' representatives in the proposed community school in Tallaght, County Dublin, be chosen by the Tallaght Community Council pending the introduction of a system of election by parents with children in the school.
The parents' representatives on the Tallaght Community School Board have already been selected under the proposals previously put forward by me. I do not intend to depart from these proposals.
May I ask the Minister if this body were elected and, if so, who elected them and, also, what standing have they got?
This is another planted question. The Minister will need to do something better than that.
Deputy Desmond should keep his hair on.
He cannot do that.
His limited mind cannot understand the matter.
Let us hear the prepared answer.
As usual, we had a stupid remark from Deputy Desmond.
Peter Walker from Ringsend.
The management boards are being set up in the first instance by the nomination of two from the religious side, two from the parents' side and two nominated by the vocational education committee: the two parents to be nominated for the first three years by the religious. What interests me very much about this whole discussion is that one would imagine that consultation with parents in relation to schools was something that was a normal feature in this country. Of course, I am pioneering something completely new in relation to parents, in regard to the management and, very particularly, in a situation where after three years the parents of the children attending the school will elect their own representatives.
The two religious orders are not now teaching in the area and there is a parent/teacher organisation in the existing school who have not been consulted at all in the matter.
The situation in Tallaght was that the two religious organisations wished to start secondary schools there but I prevented them from doing so. I had in mind the setting up there of a community school. Throughout the country there are, on average two religious schools to one vocational school——
Here there is none.
The Deputy is aware that, if the religious had started secondary schools there, they would have at least the same ratio of pupils attending those schools as they have in other parts of the country where they are already in existence. I could see no reason for changing the system there from the system that exists elsewhere.
But there is no system.
Of course, there is.
In what school is it operating?
For the first time in the history of this country—and, indeed, in so far as I can ascertain, for the first time in Europe—we are, after three years, giving the parents the right to elect their own representatives in the Tallaght and Blanchardstown areas.
That is being very generous.
May I ask the Minister if there is not a great difference between the nomination of two parents' representatives by the parents and the nomination of two parents' representatives from the parents by religious orders?
The Deputy might continue and point out that after three years the parents of the children attending the schools elect their own representatives to the board.
Yes, after all the decisions have been taken.
I must say that I am very pleased at the direction from which the attacks are coming.
Is it not the case that this is a variation of Henry Ford's idea —you can have any colour you want so long as it is black? Is it not the position that the Minister is offering community schools so long as they are sectarian and Catholic?
It is not a fact, as the Deputy knows very well.
Is the Minister stating that the Archbishop's statement was incorrect?
54.
asked the Minister for Education what steps he proposes to take to consult parents and young married couples who are potential parents in the Tallaght and Blanchardstown areas, County Dublin, about the arrangements for the proposed community schools in these areas.
The members of the boards of management for these two schools have been nominated. They are people who are familiar with the requirements of these areas. Schools are urgently required in both areas and what we need now is to get these schools off the ground. The necessary preliminary work is being undertaken by the boards in consultation with my Department. Any pertinent representations that any group within the areas may wish to make will no doubt be considered by the boards.
Could the Minister say why he is not going to consult the parents when they are the people who will be concerned with the schools?
I have pointed out already to the Deputy that, if I were to consult the particular body in Tallaght at present, they would be representative of only a comparatively small percentage of the parents of the entire area.
How does the Minister know that?
There are parents who are sending their children to the vocational school in Tallaght while many others are sending their children to secondary schools in various parts of the city. Some have children who will be of age to attend the post-primary schools when these community schools are established. This is the reason why I consider that I should at first give the nomination elsewhere so that we would know exactly, when the school is in operation properly, who were the parents and they are the only people who are entitled to elect parents' representatives.
Can the Minister say whether either of the existing parents' representatives are parents of children in the existing school?
They will have children in the community school, when that school is in operation?
Has the Minister chosen parents who have not got children at school in the area or have the religious order chosen such parents?
I am concerned with the parents of those children who will be attending the community school.
Including the children, 300 of whom are in the existing school?
Yes.
Arising out of the reply to this rather intriguing question, could the Minister indicate how he proposes to assess the potential of the people referred to in this particular question?
What potential?
A monomania. We are back again to devices.
Deputy Power is well aware of the special test in relation to morals.
Listen to the new Minister.
May I ask the Minister why he did not institute a system whereby some weeks after the commencement of enrolment of students, a month later, two months later or indeed a quarter or a half year later at the very most, the parents would have an opportunity of sitting down themselves and directly electing their representatives on to the board rather than having nomination of any parent outside the school for three years during which time all the decisions will be taken and we will have so-called, nominal, spurious parental representation?
This is a dangerous idea. This is democracy.
It would appear to me now that all that is between Deputy Desmond and myself is a specific lenght of time—the difference between six months and three years. I feel that three years is much better than six months.
Would the Minister say what guarantees he has received that either of the two parents in question will be sending their children to this school at all?
This is like the Abbey Theatre.
(Interruptions.)
Question No. 55.
55.
asked the Minister for Education what steps he proposes to take with respect to the proposals for the ownership and management of the proposed Tallaght community school put forward by the Saint Macartan's Parent-Teacher Association, which his Parliamentary Secretary has undertaken to have considered.
I have considered the proposals referred to and I still feel that my own proposals are those best suited to cater for what is involved.
Is the Minister saying that he is not prepared to consider any of the suggestions made and that all the suggestions made by other people will be completely dismissed, that he knows best?
I am certain that I examined the whole situation fully and faced up to the facts much more so than anybody else who inside a couple of days was able to produce particular proposals out of a hat.
(Interruptions.)
Order.
56.
asked the Minister for Education if he will give the terms of the trust which it is proposed to establish for the ownership of community schools and the use and purpose to which these schools may be put under this proposed trust.
57.
asked the Minister for Education the reasons for his decision to vest the ownership of the proposed community schools in trustees to be appointed by the Roman Catholic Ordinary of the diocese in which each school is situated.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 56 and 57 together.
In his reference to ownership the Deputy is apparently unaware as to what is involved in a deed of trust related to schools. The trust will follow the normal pattern, that is, the site and buildings will be vested in three trustees whose main function will be to ensure that the buildings continue to be used for the purposes specified in the deed of trust, that is, as a school providing post-primary and adult education with provision for the use of school facilities by the community generally subject to such rules and regulations regarding such uses as may be made by the board of management with the approval of my Department.
The deed of trust will also contain the usual provision in the matter of the Minister's interest reverting to him should there be any failure to carry out the terms of the trust.
Would the Minister, first of all, put the terms of the proposed deed of trust in the Oireachtas Library?
It is not prepared. I am giving the general situation in relation to deeds of trust. The deed of trust is not prepared.
Is the Minister prepared to say that there would be no other clause of any kind in the deed of trust of a restrictive character?
I have given the general pattern here.
And there will be nothing else in it?
I will not go into that sort of detail. I have to examine the whole situation.
I see. Would the Minister now answer Question No. 57 which he did not answer at all?
I have already answered the question. In fact, I answered it earlier on. I said that the situation throughout the country generally in the areas that I have in mind is that there are two schools under the management of religious communities and one under the vocational educational committee. Therefore it would appear to me to be fair and equitable that two of the trustees would represent religious interests and one the vocational interest.
Can the Minister state why all three must be appointed by the Catholic Ordinary of the diocese and why the Catholic Ordinary of the diocese is referred to as "the" Ordinary of the diocese?
The vocational committee will put forward their nominee who must be accepted.
Why must all three be appointed by the Roman Catholic Ordinary? Will the Minister give a reason for that?
I have already given the reason.
The Deputy is very anti-Catholic.
Do not start that.
Scandalous rubbish.
Would the Minister answer my question as to why?
I have answered it and I will not repeat my answer.
What is the answer?
I have already gone into detail——
No, I have listened to every reply given by the Minister on this subject and I have never heard why this is necessary.
Question No. 58.
I have pointed out to the Deputy that the nominee of the vocational educational committee must be accepted as a trustee.
By whom?
Does the Minister not accept that that is a possible reason for the Roman Catholic Ordinary appointing two; it does not explain why he must appoint all three? Could we have the answer to that?
I have explained to the Deputy that the nominee of the vocational education committee must be accepted.
Just answer my question.
(Interruptions.)
Deputies
He is not able to. He is too dishonest.
Words have lost their meaning.
He is a blood brother of sectarianism.
I repeat that I am glad to see the direction from which the attack is coming.
That is the cheapest, most feeble argument. Why do you not answer the question?
Would he like to explain what that means? I still do not know what the Minister is talking about.
The Deputy should think it out for himself.
Would the Minister like to be more explicit because I am lost? The attack is coming from the Opposition benches. Where else would it come from? It would not come from those tame benches over there.
(Interruptions.)
There is no difference between the two Faulkners. You are both sectarian——
(Interruptions.)
I am calling Question No. 58.
He is a Protestant sectarian and you are a Catholic sectarian. There is no difference between the two of you.
The Deputy is not terribly concerned about any particular denomination.
A typical Fianna Fáil remark.
(Interruptions.)
We are a nice exhibition for a united Ireland.
You are indeed.
Will the Minister inform the House whether the deed of trust will be shown to the vocational education committees concerned with a view to getting their approval, as they will be transferring their property which is representative, on a multi-denominational basis, of the whole community?
I shall consider that.
On what grounds did the Minister depart from the non-denominational character of the vocational schools in order to create these Catholic sectarian schools? The Minister is a Catholic bigot.
The Minister would not tell us the reasons why.
Would the Deputy kindly listen? The basic consideration I had in relation to the whole question of community schools was to provide a better education for the children of rural Ireland in the small towns of Ireland and despite all that has been said here I will insist that the children in the small towns of rural Ireland will get equal chances with those in the cities.
Question No. 58. Order. I shall not allow any more supplementaries on this. This is a debate on education.
58.
asked the Minister for Education whether he has had discussions with representatives of the Protestant church or educational interests about his proposals for community schools; and, if so, if he will make a statement on these discussions.
59.
asked the Minister for Education if he has received a letter from the Church of Ireland Board of Education stating that, whereas it has been and still is policy to make it possible for Church of Ireland children to attend schools of their own tradition, other factors in conjunction with the greater demand for post-primary education have meant that Church of Ireland children in increasing numbers are attending vocational schools, and that the recent Government proposals for community schools suggesting that some vocational schools will be merged with Roman Catholic secondary schools and be reconstituted as denominational in management and ethos will make these schools unacceptable to the Church of Ireland; whether he has replied to this letter, and in what terms; and what steps he proposes to take to meet the views of the Church of Ireland Board of Education and other Protestant Church authorities.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Question Nos. 58 and 59 together.
I have had discussions with the Church of Ireland Board of Education and beyond saying that I feel that they have now a keener appreciation of what is involved in relation to community schools I do not feel that it would be proper for me to make any further comment on the matter.
Would the Minister agree that their letter described his proposals as unacceptable and what steps is he taking to make them acceptable to the Church of Ireland Board of Education?
I have had discussions with the Board of Education and they now understand much more clearly what is involved. I do not propose to add anything further.
What does the Minister think the community schools position will be in a united Ireland and what attitude will the then Protestant minority have to the sectarian nature of these community schools?
What united Ireland? They have sabotaged it.
If ever an attempt was made in a national Parliament to——
Divide Ireland, you have done it.
——sabotage the situation in relation to a united Ireland it has come from those benches opposite.
Faulkner, the Catholic bigot.
Is the Minister aware that the vast bulk of the members of the Church of Ireland Board of Education—men I have never met in my life —have come to me in my own constituency, and have come to opposition Deputies and have said that they were dismayed, shocked and appalled at the tragic situation that has now developed in relation to community schools? Might I implore the Minister, in the national interest, leaving aside the expressions he has used here——
This is a long dissertation, not a question.
It is so serious that this Dáil must discuss it.
Not at Question Time.
The Minister should reconsider the whole question.
The Deputy may not proceed along those lines.
When I have had discussions with the Protestant Education Board——
The Unionists are right to fight against coming into a united Ireland.
——they have not expressed the type of sentiment expressed by Deputy Desmond.
Will the Minister not agree that they said in their letter "unacceptable"? Deputy Tunney wants to ask a supplementary question.
The Deputy may not be too pleased when he has heard it.
The Deputy has a right to ask .
May I ask a supplementary question?
On what question?
In connection with Question No. 59. Would the Minister indicate to me if he has any figures of the extent to which people who are now so concerned about the non-denominational character of vocational schools have been supporters of that type of school in the past.
More sectarianism.
I would have a fair good idea that none of them has been.
Did the Minister say none of them?
He is referring to Deputies in the House.
In regard to his communication with the Church of Ireland Board of Education, I should like to ask the Minister if he has been informed that his Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Kennedy, made a deliberate and serious effort to distort the position and to mislead the people at a meeting in Tallaght when he tried to present scandalously selected excerpts from their letter and to misrepresent their point of view?
No, but I do know that at that particular meeting people made deliberate efforts to distort——
The Parliamentary Secretary made one and was caught in it most disgracefully.
——the position. These individuals knew perfectly well that the teachers in the present vocational school had only to ask for a post in the community school and they had to get it and, in case this should be raised, the reason why it was put in the rules that they should look for a post in the community school was to give them the choice between continuing in the service of the vocational education committee or joining the community school. That is where the distortion took place.
Would the Minister not agree that the Parliamentary Secretary, in fact, read out the first half of the first sentence in the second paragraph of this letter stating that the Church of Ireand policy was that children should attend schools of their own tradition? Then he stopped and said: "You must trust me that the rest of it is irrelevant." He was forced to read it out and the rest of it includes this statement: that the whole system proposed by the Minister is unacceptable. Would the Minister not agree that that was a dishonest act?
I was not present but I do know that where the dishonesty lay was in the situation I have already described.
Answer the question.
The situation is as I have already described.
Mr. FitzGerald
Do you stand over that?
Is it not a fact that we do not need the British Army to keep Ireland divided while we have a Minister for Education like this?
I am calling Question No. 60.
We should now send a copy of this debate to the Reverend Ian Paisley.
Deputy Desmond has already ensured that he will get it.
Every word that that Minister says he reads and he uses. This Faulkner as well as the other one are the two favourite quotes of Ian Paisley.
60.
asked the Minister for Education whether he will make provision for representation of teachers on the boards of management of community schools; and, if not, why.
No. I consider that the establishment of an advisory council as proposed is the way in which teachers might make the best contribution to the running of these schools.
Does the Minister not accept the desirability of teachers having representation on the board?
I have already explained my stand on this.
Why should teachers not be represented?
I have pointed out already in reply to a previous question that I believe this is the way in which teachers can make the best contribution to the running of the schools.
The Minister says they are not capable of participating in management. That is his view of teachers.
The Minister has the highest regard for teachers.
But they must not have anything to do with management; they must do as they are told, like good little boys.
Might I ask the Minister if he is aware that the vocational teachers on four different occasions, in relation to the management of community schools, have specifically asked that teachers should be given representation on the boards of such schools?
And got the same dusty answers as the Protestants.