asked the Minister for Local Government the terms of reference of the McKinsey consultant group employed by his Department to look into the structure of local government; how the operations of this group are to be co-ordinated with the discussions taking place on the Government's White Paper on Local Government Reform; and when he expects the group to present its report.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Local Government White Paper.
120.
The White Paper on Local Government Reorganisation proposed studies in the area of staff structure and procedures. Consultants were employed to assist in these studies and have now reported. A statement of their terms of reference will, with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, be included in the Official Report. In so far as the report, which, as I have said, relates primarily to staffing and procedures, has implications for local government re-organisation, these will be taken into account in conjunction with all the other views on the white paper which have been conveyed to me by interested parties.
Following are the terms of reference:
Terms of Reference (in the form of a proposal from McKinsey and Company, Incorporated to the Minister for Local Government)
1. This memorandum outlines proposals for a study of the staff structure of local authorities.
Background of the Study
2. As background to the study the following would be taken into account—
(a) the White Paper on Local Government Reorganisation,
(b) the Computer Report already published,
(c) the Clerkin Report,
(d) the decision of the Department to introduce PPBS at local level and to reorganise the local authorities system of accounts, statistics and information flow generally.
Programme
3. During the study we would propose to examine in detail the staff structure of the local authorities in the light of the "major issues" set out below. We would—
(a) Put into perspective the problems indicated in paragraph 4 below,
(b) Develop a comprehensive programme for tackling these problems,
(c) Dispose of the more straightforward problems and permit progress on immediate implementation in these areas,
(d) Develop and present to the Department our outline concepts of future organisation proposals including an outline staff structure. If further study is necessary, these concepts would be tested and developed in detail in ensuing stages of that study.
Major Issues to be Studied
4. (a) We must first understand thoroughly the aims of the Department, both as to its responsibility for the effectiveness of the local government system and also in terms of its specific objectives for each of the programmes or services for which it is responsible. The Department's perception of its role and objectives will dictate to a large extent the kind of local organisation pattern that must be designed to help it carry out these objectives and the inter-relationship between Department and local authorities. We will also examine the extent to which the Department's aims are achieved.
(b) Does the present staff structure of local authorities meet the needs of modern day tasks? The tasks of local authorities and of the whole local government service in Ireland have changed considerably over the past few decades. In particular, the emphasis in recent years on the responsibilities of local authorities for economic development in their areas raises questions about the appropriateness of the traditional patterns of staff organisation of local authorities.
(c) Does the present structure of manager/secretary/accountant/staff officer reflect the management responsibilities of local authorities for the wide range of their services in so far as county councils are concerned? In relation to urbans, what staff problems arise?
(d) What is the most appropriate way to fit the engineering responsibilities into the management structure of local authorities?
(e) What will be the impact on present organisations and procedures of the installation of the computer and of the changes proposed in the White Paper?
(f) What changes are needed in the financial accounting methods and in the management information passed from authorities to the Department?
(g) Does the standardised salary structure unduly inhibit mobility between authorities to the detriment of the service?
(h) How do present personnel policies affect the ability of the local government service to recruit capable people? What changes are required to improve the recruiting position?
(i) How can the Department assist local authorities in developing and co-ordinating training programmes and providing facilities for training of local government officers?
(j) In the light of the above examinations, what outline staff structure is best for the county councils and the larger urbans? What problems are involved in applying this to the county boroughs?
5. We envisage that the Department would establish an appropriate steering group constituted within the Department, with whom we would hold regular formal progress review meetings. We would hold more frequent meetings with the officers mainly responsible for the management processes and structure of the service. We would of course work very closely with key members of the Department and would rely heavily on them for our fact gathering. It is important to bear in mind that this involvement of staff will be time consuming but essential.
6. We would carry out a programme of interviewing and analysis throughout the country on a basis agreed with the steering group. Subject to their agreement, we would envisage visiting a reasonable cross section of the counties (analysing in depth the organisation, tasks and methods of working of perhaps two representative counties) and also visiting an agreed selection of urban authorities for purposes of comparison and in order to understand the role that the urbans play in the present structure. Finally, we would carry out an interviewing programme within the Department itself so that we would have a thorough understanding of the Department's objectives and its methods of working. In particular, we would want to follow through some specified cases in which departmental programmes have been implmented through local authorities.
When will the Minister be publishing the report of the consultant group?
Not for quite some time.
Will the Minister say why he had to get McKinsey? Surely he will agree McKinsey are not conversant with our local government structure during the years. Does the same not apply to the health boards? What special qualifications have the McKinsey Group?
That would be a separate question.
They were particularly suitable from my point of view in that they had already done a report for the Department of Health and had some knowledge of the operations of the local authority.
The Chair had already said this would be a separate question and consequently the Minister should not have answered it.
I had not heard the Chair.
Could the Minister tell me if there were any inconsistencies——
Question No. 121.
That, too, is a separate question.
121.
asked the Minister for Local Government when the Government policy decision on the White Paper on Local Government Reorganisation will be available.
122.
asked the Minister for Local Government whether it is now intended to proceed before the next local elections with local government reform as outlined in the White Paper issued in 1971.
I propose, with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, to take Questions Nos. 121 and 122 together.
Legislative proposals arising out of the White Paper on Local Government Reorganisation are being considered at present. I cannot yet say, however, when decisions will be announced.
Would the Minister say whether he proposes to introduce the legislation during this session and, if so, whether he hopes to have it passed before June?
That is my intention. However, it may happen that this may not be possible. If my proposals are not passed by the Oireachtas in time to allow for the necessary changes to be implemented before the holding of the local elections in June, a decision will have to be made on whether or not they should be postponed. It is all a question of timing but I am not yet in a position to make any decision. I can only inform the House that it is my intention to do exactly as the Deputy has asked, that is, to have the legislation passed in time to operate the next local elections under whatever changes this House will agree to.
Can the Minister say which comes first—the chicken or the egg? Which is the more important— to have the local elections in June this year or to have the White Paper enacted before the local elections? I should like the Minister to give me an honest answer because it is very unfair that members of his party are saying that the local elections will take place while the Minister has been fencing in this House.
I agree that I will have to make a decision one way or the other very soon but I am sincere in my desire to have such changes carried out and to go ahead with the local elections in this coming year. However, it would be foolish to hold a local election for a local authority which I am proposing to abolish. It would not be in the best interests of local democracy to hold an election in that atmosphere. I think the House will agree that it would be as well to settle these issues before holding another local election. There is also the question of a referendum being held this year. While the date of that referendum is not yet known it could so happen that it might be held on a date very close to the time when the local elections should be held and it might not be proper to proceed so soon after the referendum with elections that would again involve all of the electorate.
I would appeal to the Minister to make up his mind as to what he intends doing especially since members of his party have stated authoritatively that the local elections will take place.
I think people have made educated guesses but I have qualified the matter by saying that no decision has been made.
These people have not said that.
Can the Minister tell me the degree to which these legislative proposals would be based on the subject matter of the McKinsey consultants group report? If they have been based on the report, is it not now necessary to publish the report, since we can assess the Bill on which rest the legislative proposals?
The Government will decide whether the report is to be published.
Are they on the same subject?
Yes, but they deal in the main with staffing and administrative matters.
Since the Government have been proposing down through the years as they have proposed in their white paper that there be a change from a democratic to a bureaucratic system, why should local elections be held this year or any other year for that matter? Why not centralise——
That would be a separate question.
What is the point in electing county councils if they are to have no power? This is a far cry from a statement made by the person who is now President on the local government structure. The Minister should read that statement in the Official Report.
That is a separate question.
It is highly irrelevant.
It is very relevant.